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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14408	Acts of the dispute and conference holden at Paris, in the moneths of Iuly and August. 1566. Betweene two doctors of Sorbon, and two ministers of the Reformed Church A most excellent tract, wherein the learned may take pleasure, and the ignorant reape knowledge. Translated out of French by Iohn Golburne, and diuided according to the daies.; Actes de la dispute & conference tenue à Paris. English.	Golburne, John.; Vigor, Simon, d. 1575.; Sainctes, Claude de, 1525-1591.; Du Rosier, Hugues Sureau.; L'Espine, Jean de, ca. 1506-1597.	1602 (1602)	STC 24727; ESTC S119134	189,279	272

Gods Almightinesse came after to maintaine second that which he had of the promise One may see by these examples what daunger there is to depart and draw backe although neuer so litle from the word of God by which we are guided to the knowledge of his will And by the knowledge of his will conducted to the consideration and iudgement which we ought to make and haue of his Almightinesse For want whereof the Doctors are fallen into errors and raylings which they propose to the Ministers by their writing and conclusion of their resolution That is to say that the body of Iesus Christ may be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant which is against the faith we ought to haue and constantly retaine of the wisedome prouidence and euerlasting truth of our God and against that likewise which wee ought to haue and keepe of our Lords true humanitie And that which they first alledge of S. Ierome against Vigilantius nought serueth for the proofe and confirmation of their error Where no other thing he saith but that the soules of the Saints are not inclosed in a certaine prison as dreamed Vigilantius but do follow the Lambe whithersoeuer he goeth Nor that which they alledge of Saint Augustine in the booke which he made of the pure care of the dead For in that booke hee himselfe confesseth that he is incertaine of that which the Doctors doo propose and are assured And nomore doo the three authorities they alledge of Saint Iohn Chrisostome Saint Ambrose and Saint Augustine whose sentences ought to be taken and vnder stood of the Sacrament and not of the thing signified by the Sacrament As in the next conference the Ministers well hope to shew The Ministers do much maruel that the Doctors so draw backe and will not but vnwillingly enter into conference for defence of their Masse and to gainsay the Supper celebrated in the reformed Churches For seeing they hold it for the principall foundation of theyr Religion and propose the same for a meane of saluation to the whole world That they be not seene seducers nor ouer credulous to beleeue or teach an incertaine and vnassured thing they should alwayes be prouided and furnished with reasons to the end they might approue and readily defend that which they beleeue and say and might conuince them also that would deny the same But in this it appeareth to proceed of of an euill conscience which being timerous and fearefull flyeth alwaies the combat and the light It is long time since the Ministers haue importuned them to enter into the deciding and conference of these two points and to bring them thervnto they haue proposed vnto them that it was the end for which the conference was appointed which Madame de Buillon in whose fauour it was made once or twise hath publikely required and that they also had often protested that they were not for other ende assembled with the Doctors then to satisfie therein the said Lady of Buillon and not to be examined by them as they do falsly pretend For the Ministers haue no desire to be examined of such Doctors being Priests Ioyned that to be taught in the points of religion and to know the truth they would not choose such Maisters nor repaire vnto them and frequent theyr schooles for that purpose And yet notwithstanding all the foresayd remonstrances often made and repeated by the Ministers the Doctors haue alwayes vntill now deferred to conferre of the foresaid points awayting as it is likely that some occasion should be offered to breake off and determine the sayd conference before they had begunne to speak thereof Albeit had they any zeale to th● honour of God and to the edification of his Church they should by all meanes haue procured that the sayd two points should haue beene fully cleared and resolued be it that they would confirme and strengthen them of their part or withdraw as they pretend those of our side from their errors For it is not much needfull hereafter to dispute of the Saints of Purgatory Pilgrigrimages and other like points In regard of which the most part of the world is at this day cleared By meanes whereof as well the Doctors as the Ministers ought chiefly to insist vpon these two points and to endeuour with them to make them cleare and to be vnderstood of each one and not to vse Sophistries and cauils to make them obscure and retaine thereby the simple in their ignorance as the Doctors endeuour to do Who hauing left of set purpose the Theses Articles proposed to them by the Ministers with order good methode in their last answeres do confusedly propose certaine questions culled out of their schoole diuinitie euer more and more to fold vp this matter And in so doing they withstand as euer hitherto they haue done what so and so often they haue protested to wit that they would examine the confession of the reformed Churches whereof notwithstanding they haue not handled one only point in all the conference Wherein they haue shewed and yet plainly do shewe the distrust they haue to be able to withstand so cleare and apparant trueth as that which is proposed in the saide confession Answeres to the Preface of the Doctors Questions THe Doctors before they propose their Questions in their Preface do call the Supper celebrated in the refor-Churches a prophane and polluted banquet And in so saying they neither shame nor feare first to blaspheme Iesus Christ who instituted the same and is the authour therof and then to condemne the Apostles of Impietie which so haue celebrated and taught it together with all the auncient Churches which followed and obserued whiles it reremained in it puritie the forme and maner which the Euangelists and Apostles had taught and left by their writings But the Ministers would willingly demaund of the Lordes our Maisters that they particularly note vnto them wherein they can violate the institution ordinance of Iesus Christ and leaue his example and that of his Apostles in the celebration of the Supper For when they will celebrate the same they first assemble the whole Church together as Iesus Christ did his Apostles and Disciples where after their publike confession of sinnes and vnderstandingly made in the name of all they make a Sermon to the people wherein according to the grace and power which God hath giuen them they declare the causes and occasions the end the vse the points and effects of the holy Supper to lift vp the hearts of the people to the consideration of the incomprehensible loue which the Father hath shewed towards his Church when in fauour thereof and for the saluation of the same he hath not spared his owne sonne but exposed him to a cruell and cursed death to the end that each one calling to minde so great a grace and mercie be kindled and inflamed in the loue of God and tremble at the ingratitudes and rebellious offences and sinnes which he hath committed

same to my Lord the Admirall by whose aduice and other Lords which hee spake too De Spina was suddenly sent for who beeing come vnto them and hauing vnderstood all that aforesaid said that hee hoped for little fruite of all this Conference considering the qualitie and humour of the man with whom hee was to deale because hee is much more partiall for the Pope and his traditions then zealous for the word of God and truth of Iesus Christ Which thing those that were present did well approoue Neuerthelesse hee was purposed for two considerations to present himselfe at the said Conference the one to support and stablish my said Lady de Buillon against the Sophismes and cauillations of the said Vigor the other to take from him the occasion to boast as his custome is that the Ministers durst not appeare before him And then was the proceeding and order aduised of which they should hold in the said Conference And that the said De Spina should first require that it might be authorized by the Kings permission Afterwards that to auoyd all confusion it should bee made in the presence of a fewe persons Thirdly that there should bee some certaine theame and subiect proposed wherof they should conferre Fourthly that there should be two Moderators of the whole Action and two others deputed faithfully to collect all the reasons and arguments which should bee brought forth by the parties All which things hauing beene proposed to my Lord the Duke of Buillon as well by Monsieur the Admirall as by the said De Spina hee found them very reasonable and promised to giue the best order he could to all the businesse admonishing De Spina to be readie the first day of Iuly 1566. for after dinner hee should make the said Conference By meanes whereof the same De Spina to prepare himselfe went to finde out Monsieur Barbaste Minister to the Queene of Nauarre whom hee prayed to vouchsafe to accompany and second him in the said conference Which he graunting both two together with three other Gentlemen left by my said Lord de Buillon to conduct them went after dinner the day and yeare aboue said to the house of my Lord the Duke de Montpensier where when they were arriued the Duke de Buillon aduertised thereof by one of the said Gentlemen came vnto them in the Hall where they were And speaking to De Spina demaunded of him induced as is likely by the Doctors assembled in the chamber whence hee came if he were purposed and resolued to pray after the custome of the reformed Churches before they began the said conference He answered yea and that neither he nor his companion could not nor ought to attempt a thing of such importance as to handle the Mysteries of Christian Religion without first being prepared therevnto by the inuocation of Gods name That heard hee entred the chamber where the Doctors were assembled and hauing communicated to them the answere of the said Ministers they appointed Doctor Ruze to declare vnto them that they would not be present at their prayers and that no more reasonable it was that they should bee there then they at their Masse The Ministers answered that they could not with good conscience begin the conference before they had prayed vnto God and that it was in the Doctors choise pleasure to be present or absent at their praiers And they for their part would content themselues to pray in the place assembly wherin the conference should be made But neuerthelesse that their prayers which are as they themselues confesse conformable to the pure word of God and their Masse wherin are many things contrary therevnto as they may easily know and iudge that will trie and examine it by the rule of the scripture were not like things And so by meanes of the impietie and Idolatrie which is in their Masse they could not any way communicate thereat without offence to God and making themselues highly culpable before him but that he and the other Doctors his companions could not be letted by any such difficulties to be present at their prayers For as much as there was no article which by their owne confession 〈◊〉 not holy and according to God Herevpon replied Doctor Ruze that the Ministers staied on a thing of small moment And they answered that the principall exercise of Christian Religion was prayer and that it is a necessarie mean to obtaine the fauour and grace of God without which men cannot attaine successe nor any good speed in all their workes and that therfore the omission thereof was verie pernitious And that they for their part were abashed that he which called himselfe a Doctor and Diuine should make so litle account of praier which is the true practise fruite and vse of all the knowledge which can be had of God and his word and that therein one may know what was the iudgement of them which measure diuinitie by Idle and vaine speculations Then said he vn-them that the Duke de Montpensier would neuer suffer he should so be braued in his owne house nor that it should bee said that the Ministers had made their prayers Wherevnto answered the Ministers that to braue was a thing contrarie to their profession And that so farre off were they from brauing of Princes to whom they owed all honour feare and obedience that they would condemne themselues if so be they had vsed it to a man of the basest qualitie in the world And added moreouer that the Doctors and such others which charged them with such slaunders towards Princes to stirre vp and moue them against them should be assured they should once answere before God for the same Herevpon spake Doctor Ruze and demaunded of the Ministers why they stood so stifly vppon that point of prayer They f●● answere proposed vnto him first that the end of the Conference was to manifest the true meaning of the scripture and make the hearers vnderstand it which thing could not be done without the spirit of God who enlightneth the minde and vnderstanding to comprehend it and openeth the mouthes to expresse the same And therefore it behoueth to implore and obtaine his grace by prayers Afterwards that God commaunded all those that want wisedome to aske it of him and to seeke what they would finde and to knocke if they would haue him to open vnto them All which things cannot otherwise bee obtained then by prayers And therefore concluded that for this cause they were necessary They alledged further that all things ought to be reduced to the glory of God and that inuocation was therefore requisite in the beginning and thankesgiuing at the ending and consummation of all our workes nor more nor lesse then wee beginne and finish our repast in blessing and praising the name of God Then said Doctor Ruze vnto them that they would not hinder them to pray vnto God but that they should do it in their hearts And they answered that it was not

haue bene humane because wee see it against the nature of this body to enter by the closed doores For to God are all things possible For to walke also vpon the waters is manifestly against the nature of this body And yet the Lord himselfe not onely walked before his passion but also caused Peter to walke Where it appeareth that S. Augustine saith plainly that our Lord did enter by the shut doores and referreth all to the omnipotencie of God Moreouer the text of S. Luke ioyned with that of Saint Iohn doth shewe that he entred through the doores For no reasonable occasion had the Apostles had to thinke it was a spirit and not a body seeeing him before them in the likenesse of a man but for that he was entred otherwise then a true body and very man could enter That is for that he was entred by the closed doores which thing a true man and a true body in no wise can doo To say that the doores were opened and afterwards shut again by myracle or otherwise should nothing auaile For so may a true man and a true body be there and therefore no cause can a man haue to think it a spirit or vaine vision The Doctors say moreouer that all the auncient heretikes and Christians did commonly agree that Iesus Christ passed through but such was their difference as now it is between the Ministers Doctors The auncient heretikes said that Iesus Christ after his resurrection had not a true body because he did workes contrary to the nature of a body which implied contradiction to a naturall body to wit that at one selfe instant he was in one selfe-same place with an other body as when he passed through the doores The auncient Catholike Christians answered that such indeed was the nature of a body that it could not passe through the doores through the body of the virgin in his birth without fracture through the stone of the Sepulchre in it resurrection but neuerthelesse that two bodies should be together by the omnipotencie of God implied no contradiction for as much as it so hapned in the three cases done and recited The first that speaketh therof is Iustine Martir in the 117. question against the Gentiles where hee saith If a thicke body be hindred to passe through the doores how did our Lord after his resurrection enter the shut doores And if it bee so why was the stone remoued by the Angell from off the Sepulchre to the end his body might rise againe He answereth thus That euen as our Lord without changing his body into a spirit walked vpon the sea but by his diuine power he made the sea solide to walke vpon not onely for his owne body but for that of S. Peter So by his diuine power he came forth of the sepulchre the stone remaining thervpon and entered to his Disciples the doores beeing shut Hereby we vnderstand that the things which proceed of diuers vertues ought to haue the same faith And we must know that the things which surpasse nature whē they are wrought in it by diuine power ought not to be measured according to the reason proprietie of nature For this cause our Lord seeing his Disciples troubled at such an entry did propose vnto them the parts of his body and the places and markes of his wounds to be touched to shew he was not entred by change of his body into a spirite but with his body composed of it dimensions and thicknesse and by his diuine almightinesse which made all things that surpasse the strength of nature Saint Hillary in his third booke of the Trinitie But thou saith hee which wilt search into the things insearchable and wil● be Iudge of the secrets of God and his power I aske counsell of thee giue onely a reason and solution of this fact to mee that 〈◊〉 and do simply beleeue in God concerning all things euen as hee hath said and pronounced them I vnderstand that the Lord was often present after his resurrectio● to he seene and knowne of them which beleeued him not The self-same Lord applying himselfe to the weaknesse of out vnderstanding and to satisfie the doubts of the 〈◊〉 doth shewe a secret and a worke of his almightinesse Expound to me the● whosoeuer thou art which wilt beeade archer of the omnipotencie of God the reason of this dee●●t The Disciples being shut vp and withdrawne together in secret the Lord is proposed to Thomas to confirme his faith according to the conditions he desired to wit that he might touch his body and proue his wounds And for this cau●ent behoued him to bring the true body with him wherein he had receiued such wounds I demaund then for as much as he was corporall by what part of the house entred hee in For I see that the Eu●ngelist diligently expresseth that Iesus came when the doores were shut and was found in the middest of his Disciples to wit whether he pierced the thicke walles and the great lettes of timber betweene both Certaine it is that without fiction or guile hee there entered Let thy conceit followe and consider his entrie and thy vnderstanding enter into the house shut within All thou seest is whole and fast locked and yet is l●ee found in the middest of his Disciples but it is because all things by his almightinesse are open to him Thou slaunderest things inuisible I aske thee againe the reason of this thing there visible Nothing of the wall or solide doores gaue backe or made way Contrariwise I see that wood and stones by their nature cannot receiue such an entrie The body of our Lord was not quite vanished to bee eftsoones taken and made of nothing Whence then commeth it that he is found in the middest of them without opening Sence and speech do herein faile and the truth of the deed is beyond humane reason As then we are abused concerning the birth of the sonne of God we lye also concerning such an entry The deed is false say we it so happened not because we cannot vnderstand the reason thereof and for that our sence and iudgemenr faileth we say there is no such deed But the faith and beliefe of the deed doth conuince our lying The Lord the doores being shut is found in the middest of the Apostles and the sonne of God is borne of his Father Denie not that hee thus entred because by the infirmitie of thy spirit thou canst not comprehend such an entrie I could amplifie like deeds in all the creatures but the Lord hath well prouided for himselfe to haue contained vs in necessitie and modestie by the nature of our bodies Sufficiently we shewe that we would make our selues an other God had we power so to do For as much as wee cannot by the boldnesse of our wicked will ruinate the nature of truth we gainsay it at least and contend with the word of God S. Ambrose in his tenth booke vpon S. Luke cap. 24. saith through the doores S.

that a Camell passed through the eye of a needle And yet is it saide that with God such thing is possible By the Ministers answere vnto the 29. article may easily bee seene that they deceiue and abuse their Disciples making them beleeue by faire words and writings that they really receiue in the Supper the true body of Iesus Christ the same which issued from the belly of the Virgin and was fastned vpon the Crosse for the restauration of mankind And wil make them to vnderstand that they who place not with the bread and wine in the Sacrament as they call it of the Supper but some spirituall effect onely as are the redemption righteousnesse sanctification life eternall and other gifts and benefites which Iesus Christ bringeth to his elect diminish the excellencie and dignitie of the same Sacrament and that they be Zuinglians But that besides such spirituall effects one must beleeue that hee receiueth truly the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper They hold neuerthelesse an other opinion For when they are pressed with arguments and cannot defend such an imaginarie and phantastike presence they confesse by their writings they are become Zuinglians and returne to the spirituall presence of Iesus Christ in the Supper which is as much to say as besides the bread and wine they receiue a certaine spirituall effect and not really the body as the Ministers do in the present answere which thing they make manifest by that they cyte of the Apostle S. Paul by which citation may bee gathered what is their opinion concerning the Supper to wit that the body of our Lord Iesus Christ is not really but by spirituall effect onely in the hearts of the faithfull For the Galathians by the hearing of S. Pauls preaching receiued not really the body of Christ crucified but had onely an imagination of the Crosse and passion of Iesus Christ and receiued onely the fruite of their faith that is to say by this meanes they were iustified and sanctified before God also the allegation which the Ministers make of S. Ciprian tendeth to this ende to shewe that in the Supper are receiued some spirituall effects onely which neuerthelesse by these words to embrace the Crosse of Iesus Christ to sucke his bloud c. be allegorically signified Wherein they denie against the intent of S. Ciprian in the Sermon of the Supper the reall prefence of the body of Iesus Christ The Doctors confesse that the argument they haue made is addressed to Caluinists and not to Zuinglians And they supposed that the Ministers would not otherwise haue thought of this Sacrament then Caluin Beza and the other Ministers renowmed to be Ministers of the Caluinist Church which they call reformed An other maner of speech vsed they which exhibited the confession touching that Sacrament to the Bishops at Poissy who freely confessed the body of Iesus Christ to bee really present in that Sacrament which the Ministers in conference with the Doctors do now denie And hereby the Ministers in the iudgement of the Doctors of Caluenists become Almanists Wherewithall they that maintaine the doctrine of the Church which they call reformed will not be greatly pleased seeing their principall pillars for not being able to answere an argument obiected by the Doctors do leaue them in the businesse considering that in the answer they say themselues to be so much enlightned with the holy spirit which maketh them vnderstand know all things Concerninig the article following they doo openly declare what their present opinion is touching the presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament by saying that the faithfull receiue no more in this time of the Gospell then did the Fathers before and vnder the lawe But certaine it is that the Fathers receiued not really the body of Iesus Christ which as then was not made Therefore the conclusion must follow that vnder the Gospell the body of Iesus Christ is not really receiued in the Sacrament which the Ministers call the Sacrament of the Supper To the 31. article they answere not as also they neuer could answere the same and they must necessarily confesse that in the power of their faith they do that which implyeth contradiction For they maintaine one thing to be present and not present at one selfe-same time and place And their spirituall or rather phantasticke presence maketh nothing to the purpose For according to their doctrine the body cannot be present but with it measures locally difinitiuely and corporally otherwise the body should be wholly abrogate and corrupted And the maner of it beeing there spiritually would not make that the body is not there or otherwise they falsly say it is present in the Supper and abuse the world Wherefore it is necessarie if the body be there yea spiritually and their doctrine of the nature of a body be true that the body of Iesus Christ be corporally difinitiuely and locally in the Supper Moreouer for as much as it is absent according to their confession it followeth that it is not there present And to conclude the Ministers say that it is there and not there And for the full solution without entering into the principall of the Argument they suppose to escape by obiecting to the Doctors some words of the breuiarie which the Doctors haue not yet seene The Ministers they thinke haue found them in some breuiarie of Monkes and remember when they were in the Couent that they were so accustomed to sing and say But although such things were found in the breuiaries vsed in the Romane Church such maner of speech might be defended in the sence which the Fathers haue giuen whē they said that the Apostles Conficiūt corpus Christi do make the body of Christ as the scripture it selfe saith that they baptise forgiue sinnes and saue those whom they conuerted which is meant as the Ministers of God Who of his owne authoritie and as Maister baptiseth forgiueth sinnes and iustifieth the faithfull persons Where the Ministers do maruell that the Doctors call faith a humane vertue the great and maruellous effects it worketh considered the Doctors say that the Ministers haue no great cause to maruell thereat seeing that euerie worke in as much as it is in man and that he therein worketh together with God is iudged and reputed humane Also the scripture calleth the faith of man the worke of man The Doctors shewe vnto the Ministers that after their wonted maner they dwell alwaies on small things and leaue that which is principall in the matter being ignorant or dissembling ignorance where lyeth the difficultie of that is handled As they do in their answere vpon the argument proposed by the Doctors whereby they obiect that the Ministers by their faith call they it diuine or humane may doo more then God can do wherevnto the Ministers without touching the point do answere with songs In the 32. article the Ministers lightly passe ouer many obiectious made them by the Doctors Whether there bee

the Doctors wel reason of the rigor of Penetrare as the Ministers did of the rigour of Aperire which more often is found in the scripture without signification of the reall opening of the heauens then Penetrare is found in the scripture to signifie a diuision and actuall cutting of the heauens For Aperire Caelos is often found for imaginary and spirituall opening and hardly is Penetrare Caelos euer found for actuall diuision of the heauens And therefore had the Doctors better reason to conclude by the rigour of the verbe Dierchesthai or Penetrare to pierce without actuall diuision of the heauens then the Ministers had to inferre the opening of them by the verbe Aperire The Ministers in the last article obiect to the Doctors that they haue passed ouer some places of scripture by which it appeareth that faith is the worke of God whervnto say the Doctors that in some one of their writings they haue expresly confessed that faith in as much as it is a gift of God it is a worke of God but in as much as he that beleeueth worketh together with God in beleeuing for Nemo credit nisivolēs no man beleeueth vnlesse he be willing it is a humane work And it is not repugnāt one self-same work for diuers causes to be a worke of God and a worke of man And where they say that the auncient Fathers haue said if not in proper yet in equiualent termes that God could not cause one body to be in diuers places that is false And the Ministers neuer haue nor can shewe the same and contradict their last writing For bringing the reason why the Fathers haue not expresly said it It was said they because they neuer thought that such an absurditie would euer fall into the braine of man Which reason ought to haue place for the saying in termes equiualent as in expresse termes sith one selfe-same thing is signified as well by the one as by the other As touching the rest the Ministers neuer answer to the principall point whereof they haue bene so often admonished and they efsoones admonish them should they a thousand times call this saying a repetition to wit that they are required to bring scripture to proue that it repugneth the order established in the world the truth the wisedome omnipotencie and vnchangeable will of God that one body may be in two places which thing they cannot do but they will answere as they are accustomed that is to say nothing Wherein appeareth that their doctrine is not founded vpon Gods word but vpon their owne opinion or particular inspiration which cannot be but of Sathan For it cannot be of the holy Ghost which is against the common consent of the Church vniuersall And vpon the same are also founded the other articles of their religion albeit they disguise them and promise Gods word to euery purpose A short Aduertisement of the Doctors vpon the Ministers Resolution touching the omnipotencie of God THe Doctors are astonied at the fashiō of the Ministers in their words and writings For they themselues from the beginning of the Conference haue neuer had patience to prosecute conclude one onely point without mingling other things therewithall impertinent to the matter in question as shal appeare by the reading of the acts And before their resolution made of the omnipotencie of God they haue heaped vp all the articles which they could remember and throwne one vpon an other without cause or reason Although the Doctors at their request had proposed the Articles of the Supper And after dispute of the omnipotencie of God to make present the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament to come orderly to shewe and proue that the will of God hath bene such and that there it is But the Doctors well vnderstand the good custome of all them of the pretended reformed religion which is to spet in the eyes of Christians all the articles of the Religion and theyr inuented filthinesse all on one threed to the end that nought bee determined that all abide in confusion and that the Serpent glide awaye hauing cast his venome Moreouer by obseruation of the Ministers answeres it shall bee seene and knowne that they neuer stay vpon any certaine and the same answere but rather of an act alledged out of the scripture where of euery question they haue giuen therevnto diuers impertinent and sometimes vnsufferable answeres Of which the Doctors do admonish them that can read these Conferences and pray them to haue regard to the same and thereof referre them to their iudgement Furthermore the Doctors admonish the Ministers that they may or ought to knowe that all Sects of our times doo cast before the eyes of those whom they will abuse the same beadroll of Articles which the Ministers in theyr Resolution haue gathered together to get audience against the Church Catholique and to bring in theyr heresies and errors vnder the name of the glorie of GOD. Whereof they boaste to bee defenders as well as the Ministers And therefore are they not so acceptable in theyr opinions and conclusions that the Ministers can pretend any right to exalt the power and glorie of God by such mingling and confounding of all matters together Moreouer the Doctors shewe that they may with better reason retort against the Ministers the conclusiō which they pretend to inferre of the subtiltie and craft of Sathan which is as they write that Sathan vnder faire shewe of pietie glideth like a Serpent into the Church of GOD to put therein disorder and confusion and in the end to assaile God himselfe The Doctors do pray each one to consider in himselfe whether the Ministers purpose be not such by their deductions and generally by the principall points of theyr doctrine For vnder faire pretext to roote out some abuses and errors against the word of the Lord which they falsly studie to perswade the world to bee in the Church Catholique And vnder the shadow to preach that they seeke the aduancement of the name of the same Lord they goe about to spoile God of all his proprieties and perfection albeit they no more declare it then Sathan told his meaning to the first man Furthermore the Ministers abase the merit and efficacie of the bloud of Iesus Christ and open a doore by their doctrine to all vices and sinnes Be it so the Doctors will not repeate what the Ministers haue held concerning the omnipotencie of God because they shall fill their writings therewithall But so it is that in their goodly resolution although they suite it with seemely words that God cannot after them but so much as they please to receiue of his wisdome and will which they disguise after their owne sence when it is found declared in the scripture Against the goodnesse of God they hold that he is the author and worker of euill and of sinne Against his mercie they teach that he neuer pardoneth nor will pardon a man which shall

the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament And shall moreouer be verified in that the Doctors haue obiected to the Ministers some arguments against their Supper to make them enter into the same Vnto which they haue nothing answered or so impertinently at the least as one may iudge by the reading of their answere that they fled the Lists as yet also they do by their last writing hiding as much as they possibly can what they thinke of the Supper albeit they haue bene admonished to answere therevnto plainely and to purpose Whether the Doctors or the Ministers retyre shall bee seene by effect For albeit the Ministers will not answer the Doctors will not leaue to aduise them thereof and to manifest to all the world the intollerable errors which bee in the Supper and in all the doctrine of the Ministers Who beeing demaunded dare not confesse and auouch by writing what hath beene written by the inuenters of theyr Supper Now to begin to speake thereof the Ministrrs do maintaine it to be celebrated according to the ordinances of Iesus Christ and after the fashion which the Apostles vsed and all the Primitiue Church whiles it flourished and abode in it puritie Wherevpon the Doctors demaund how long the Ministers esteeme the doctrine of the Supper to abide in it puritie And whether the Church were not then as pure in the doctrine of all the other articles as of this Furthermore whether since that time there is not some place in the world where the true doctrine of the Supper and of other Articles haue beene retained and conserued and whether such doctrine hath euer continued without interruption and in what place and by whom hath it bene preached and set forth and from age to age The Doctors desire the Ministers to make declaration thereof for that it much importeth For as much as before Caluin put forth his Catechisme there was no memorie that such doctrine as he taught had bene held in any Region and the Supper was not celebrated after the fashion and maner as it is celebrated in the Church called Reformed The Doctors would willingly cheare vp the Ministers who are much disquieted in their writing because the Doctors haue said that their Supper differeth not from a common banquet except in that it is worse as being prophane and polluted To meete wherwithall the Ministers haue made a great narration of the whole action of their Supper and by faire shewes which haue a forme of all godlinesse they endeuour to make it very commendable and to couer a new nothing betweene two platters And contrariwise that they may tread vnder foote and abase the thrise precious sacrifice of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the Masse by renting in peeces some shewe of him as if they were vsed without reason or signification which the Ministers vnderstand not or make semblance not to vnderstand But things ought not to be prised and esteemed by their shewes but according to their value nature and truth Moreouer the Ministers should foresee that all the Sects which bee now in the world against the Church Catholique for the act of the holy Sacrament doo vse at the least as faire shewe as they And were they thereof asked there is not any which would not enforce himselfe to proue that it approacheth nearer to Iesus Christ and his Apostles and the Primitiue Church then the pretended reformed Religion dooth Concerning all which the Doctors referre them to the writings of the Lutherans Zuinglianists Anabaptists Trinitaries Maister Alasco and such like For vnreasonable it is by such faire deceits to preferre the Supper of the Ministers to other Sects to iudge it good holy vnpolluted and according to the word of God but to repute it rather polluted and defiled with impietie for as much as it cloaketh a lye in stead of truth and giueth the shewe of pietie to impietie and falshood Also the Doctors haue not dispraised the Supper of the Ministers for the praises therein giuen to God or for the confession they there make of their sinnes or the preaching if it contained the truth or for other preparation But therefore did they say it was detestable because against the ordinance of Iesus Christ it contained not but common bread and wine and yet that they attributed vnto it some spirituall effect and other faire pretext of godlinesse The which is an abhominable thing and inuentiō of Sathan who endeuoureth by such maner of Supper to abolish and extinguish the true Supper according to the institution of Iesus Christ and to depriue the faithfull of the fruite and veritie of the same Supper in causing them to giue common bread onely instead of the body and blood of our sauiour Iesus Christ The Doctors could as well recyte the euill shewes as the Ministers do recyte the good which be in their Supper as the secrets the new enterprises practised vnder colour and shadow of assemblies made in their said Supper But to the ende the Ministers reproach not the Doctors that Priests spake of armes of contributions c. they passe it ouer with silence and referre them to the thing it self and wil content themselues to declare some causes whereby they maintaine that there is no truth in the same Supper according to the institution of Iesus Christ which are such as follow That in the Supper of the Ministers and theyr like no consecration can be made of the matter of bread wine which are there proposed And that for this cause there is not in the same matter any change made be it before or in or after the vse And by consequence that the bread and wine in such a Supper cannot be but common That no consideratiō is made in their Supper hereby appeareth first that it belongeth not to all persons to consecrate bread and wine in the Supper but onely to those that by imposition of the Pastors and Bishops hands are lawfully ordained according to the succession from the Apostles time euen vnto vs. Now certaine it is that the most part of the Ministers of the Church called Reformed be not ordained by the laying on of the Pastors hands who haue the power by succession frō one to an other since the Apostles Whereof we must conclude that such Ministers vsurping the office which pertaineth not to them cannot make any consecration and giue not by consequence but common bread and wine Which article shall be spoken of when we shall entreat of the sacrifice and Priesthood Secondly to make consecration of the bread and wine it sufficeth not that the person be fit to consecrate the matter but also it is necessary that the lawfull Minister by a certaine meane do make the consecration to wit by blessing and pronouncing of certaine words ouer the matter proposed euen as Iesus Christ hath first obserued it And because the Ministers albeit they were lawfully ordained and that they had authoritie and power to