that the causes coming from God hee uses them to make mee have those things and so bestow'd them on mee M. 'T is well sayd But to whether are you more beholding for the thing you have to God or to him that immediatly gives it you for example for your life and being to God or your parents for your learning to God or your master S. Hitherto Sâ—r I am sure I have given more thanks to my Parents and Masters but now I know not what I ought to do M. How soon have you forgot you own saying did you not tell mee that your affection was not at all towards the Stationer or rod to which your father and master are compar'd but onely to your Master that rewarded or corrected you how then are you so soon ignorant whom you are most to thank God or the next causes of your good S. By that rule I should ow nothing to my parents and master but onely to God M. Not so neither but to every one according to the good will he bears you and the share he has in the good deed Now as for God Almighty you know there is no cause concurring nor any least part of the work which belongs not totally to him on all sides and from the very beginning Therefore how much the good is 't is wholy and entirely due unto him but your Parents and Master are not the thousandth part of the Causes and therefore though thanks be due to them in respect they are the immediate causes yet in comparison of what 's due to God you are not one thousandth part beholding to them Again you told mee God knew perfectly all things belonging to this good you possess and the best owing of it But the next cause understands not perfectly what himself does but is bent to his work beyond his own understanding as you may easily see by this that your self when you walk know not how you do it and we may be pos'd in twenty things which belong to walking which nevertheless our selves do But amongst all things you have are not works some as singing playing understanding eating and the rest and therefore also whatsoever you do comes likewise from Aâ—mighty God S. Yes Sir I see well enough that because my self and all other causes of my action come from God it must needs follow that my actions come from him But I dare not say so for fear I should make him author of my sins which I have been taught he is not M. 'T is well thought on But if you knew that Sâ—n were but want of doing or not-doing you would not fear that consequence For as you see when a man takes a knife to cut with the cutting pâ—oceed from the man but that it cuts not so well as it should proceeds from the bluntness or want of edge in the knife and likewise the writing proceeds from the Scrivener but that the pen gives not ink well or blots comes from the evill fashioning or slitting of the pen so what a man does is from God but that he does not so well as he ought which is to sin proceeds from some defect in the man For as from fire cold cannot proceed nor from water driness so from the Fountain of Being and Goodness the want of goodness and being cannot spring By this you easily gather that God is the Governour of this world seeing all things are done by his disposition and government Here the Catechist ought to exhort his Catechumen to remember and perform his duty towards God who as he gives us all things freely so he deserves that we offer independently from reward all our works and wills to him As he made us so as creatures wee are his slaves As he gave us every thing we have all our goods are his As he is more cause then the next causes so is hee to be preferr'd before all As he does all our works in us so requires hee the honour of all be attributed to him As he is not author of sin so is he not to be charg'd with any fault or want on his side And as hee 's Governour of the world so is he to be pray'd to fear'd and respected THIRD CONFERENCE M. VVEll now Adam's made what did God give him S. Sir I know not that for I have not read the Scripture whence that is co be known M. But you know what things make a man and doubt not but God gave them perfectly to Adam for a good workman makes his work good and would be asham'd if it should come out of his hands otherwâ—se than perfect according to that saying that a good tree cannot breed ill fruit S. I know a man is made of Body and Soul and so Adam had those M. What are the perfections of the Bâ—dy are they not Health which consists in the integrity of all parts of our body and ability to use them well Strength to carry heave draw push and and the like Nimbleness or agility by which wee do our actions with life and quickness and lastly Beauty which graces both body and actions Likewise in the Soul wee see Understanding and Will Understanding comprehends Memory of things past Judgment of the present and Forecast of things to come Can you doubt whether these things were given to Adam S. No Sir for seeing wee have them from Adam sure Adam could not fail to have had them and to have receiv'd them from God M. But do you think Adam had no more then wee have either in body or soul in our birth S. Yes sir yet I am not well able to imagin what t is M. Do you think he knew and lov'd God above all things S. Yes sure for knowing hee was not from himself but had receiv'd all from God hee could not chuse but love him above all things M. True and God dispos'd all things fit for this for having fram'd his body â—f red clay hee stood in a visible shape before him that when hee first look'd up the first thing he saw was Almighty God finishing the creation of all things in him so that his heart being rightly set for this purpose free from all other affections most passive by the daintiness of the mould as yet not mingled with any others it could not bee but that this sight should make a most deep apprehension which must needs carry the whole powers of the soul with it and totally subject it to Almighty God But do you think this wrought any thing in the Body S. I know not Sir M. Do you not finde that good news makes your body light and jocond have you not seen boys rid of the hiccock by an apprehension of fear nay some speak of those that have been freed from agues by fears or angers and does not in all this the soul work upon the body why then should you doubt but so strong
you M. You answer well for Seeing specially by our understanding is the pleasure of the Minde which must needs be greater than the pleasure of the Body since the body has pleasure by the minde and the minde is deaded by the body But the Understanding infinitly surpasses the body because as Philosophers say it sees at once all particulars as who knows this universall that all men do such a thing knows what Sense can never reach But bee your self judge do you remember that ever at the sight of a dish of meat or news of a play day you burst out in laughter S. No Sir M. But if you heard a quick jest could you contain your self S. Many times I could not although I bit my lip and us'd al means to restrain my self M. Then the pleasure of a jest being intellectuall of the others corporeall which kinde of pleasure is most strong and efficacious S. I doubt not but the pleasure of the minde is stronger M. Now of all sorts of knowledge that by which wee understand why a thing is so or what makes it so which Logicians call demonstratio à priori is that which gives greatest pleasure and content and the higher the Cause is the greater proportionably the pleasure is too Now God being so high a Cause that hee 's beyond al causes and considerd as hee is in himself a more sublime notion comprehending both to be Cause and Effect and that in so noble and transcendent a manner as al the rest put together are incomparably and infinitly short of Him what pleasure must wee imagin it to see Him as hee is in himself As for your dâ—fficulty note that you do not desire change or variety til you have a satiety of what you enjoy and have a time of rest and quiet in it so that you have perfectly known it and found it less than your desires Now seeing God is beyond not onely the capacity of our desires but of millions of millions better then us and is sufficient to satisfy and fill the boundless extent of his own immense will 't is not possible that who sees God should complain of want of Variety Besides if variety were desirable in him is alâ— that can be desir'd not onely because hee contains every thing but because in him may be discern'd the essences and reasons of every particular thing from the creation of the heav'ns to the division of the least grain of dust in the high way what they are all their particular conditions that they are and why they are so that nothing can be sought for which is not to be found in God S. Truly Sir I must confess this is a pleasure greater than eye hath seen or ear heard or heart can conceive Nevertheless me thinks we should have some content also of our friends in the next life M. You shal of all their good but especially every one shal have particular contentment of his own good actions above all of those great ones Martyrdome Teaching and Virginity also of the good of every saint and creature in the world and of the punishment of euery damned soul in hel and the joy shal be greater according to every lawfull cause of content that nature affords us as kindred acquaintance and the like But not to forget our comparison le ts see what the wicked shal have shal they enjoy their desires can you tell me first what their desires be S. Their desires were wealth Authority meat drink and carnall pleasures which sure are then past and cannot be enjoy'd M. You say wel and in case they do not enjoy them how wil they be contented with the want of them S. They must needs be extremely afflicted if they vehemently desire and cannot obtain them and you say'd that if by choice of reason they took them for absolutely good they must needs desire them M. Tell me then are they in pain or no S. In Grief sir I understand they are but I do not see how they can be in Pain M. True 't is wee ordinarily take pain for corporall grief whereas indeed 't is but grief inflicted by another onely because we see none grieve but such as might leave of if they would we think no grief pain But after this life when the wicked cannot chuse but grieve if you remember that all comes from Gods hand you will see that their grief is also pain But do you judge it equall to that pain which the Body feels S. I know the pains of hell are far the greater though I know not well why M. If pleasure come from the soul to the body must not grief do the like and if the body dull the edge of pleasure must it not necessarily dull that also If then pleasure of minde infinitely exceed pleasure of body must not the like be sayd of grief But when shall this grief have an end S. I know that neither heaven nor hel have end but I know not well the reason more then that it so befits God's goodness and justice M. You are of a short memorâ— did you not tel mee God could not chuse but give him bliss that lov'd him above all things and that who saw him being All-goodness it ielf could not but love him above all things S. Now I see that since neither the blessed can leave to love nor God to bless those who love him their happiness can have no end M. And do you think the wicked can lose the misery unless they change their mind from loving what they cannot obtain S. No Sir but I know not why they should not change their minds M. Can they change their minds unless they see some thing of new which they saw not before or leave seeing somewhat which they did see and know S. No certainly but methinks they can think of what they wil M. Is not their souls indivisible and it 's actions without motion and so whatever they go about as soon done as 't is doing you see then necessarily that al they can do is already done al perpetually present and they see at once al they can see wherefore they can never change their minds but are to be everlastingly miserable which God defend us from But is there think you no middle condition between thâ—se two and some in that condition S. Yes Sir there 's a third state of those that dy in venial sin who aae in Purgatory and thence go to Heaven M. You are wel taught For some being in such a state at their death as though they firmly think God their greatest good and are content to forgo al other goods for him nevertheless they love worldly things withal something irregularly so as they are loath to leave them These therefore cannot have perpetual bliss til such desires be taken off and like gold in the fiâ—e purifi'd from all
effects it works in us who are the posterity of Adam S. I have heard that sins and ignorance and also death and infirmities have their origin from it M. Can you shew these things of it S. No indeed Sir for any thing I know as yeâ— but I expect you will make me know it M. Then tell me in a child three or four years old which is stronger Sense or Reason S. Sense without question For give him an apple tell him it will offend God to eat it I make no question but as soon as you have turn'd your back hee 'l eat the apple without regarding the offence of God so that I see Sense in him is stronger than Reason M. Right for he understands not what is the offence of God as yet nay accorâ—â—ng to the ordinary Judgment of Divines not till seven years of age So long therefore sense has the whole government of a child and after seven reason by litle and litle overcomes till the age of thirty The Philosophers not admitting maturity of wisdome and constant Judgment till the standing part of our age which is when we leave growing so that till then wee are on the losing side Now what think you is 't easy to conquer and root out a thing that 's grown in and with us for thirty years together S. It must needs be very hard M. Do you think that hard which evâ—â—y man does S. No Sir that 's easy which all can do and the harder a thing is so much the fewer can do it M. Thâ—n seeing to overcome Sense perfectly is very hard and very few can do it and most men do it not Mankind is subject or slave to sin as being for the most part conquer'd â—y it S. This is very well but you do not shew that this comes from originall sin M. So that it seems you have forgot that by originall sin it first came that Sense has it's proper motion not subject to Reason which if it had not the more it should grow the more vertuous it would make the man because hee would still become more subject to God and Reason S. Sir I see now that all our Sins come from original sin and indeed 't is no wonder that one sin should proceed from an other But I expect how you wilâ— shew that Ignorance Infirmities proceed from the same For if they were then to be born as we are now children and grow to be men I think they must needs also be children in knowledge and so have ignorance so that this cannot be the ofspring of original sin and likewise if then they had eaten to grow and keep themselves a live as we do now they would not avoid but meats should have their effect and so breed diseases when out of season M. You are not well acquainted with the difference of not knowing and being ignorant for not every one is ignorant who does not know but he who knows not what he ought or what 's fitting for him to know For example what Master either of Divinity or Philosophy or any other Art knows all which may be known in his Art yet are they not therefore to be term'd Ignorant So likewise any man who knows what 's fitting is not ignorant Now I pray if any one in that estate knew not what was fitting to know it was either because he could not or would not S. True for whosoever can and will do any thing 't is most clear he does it M. Then what think you in that state could he not or would he not know what was fitting If he could not it was want in himself or in his teacher But Adam was perfect in knowledge could teach him If himself were not capable the knowledge was above him and so not such as was fitting or such as the want thereof induces Ignorance If there was want of will it was because he lov'd some other thing better and that he was not wholy subject to reason which cannot be without original sin and so original sin is cause of Ignorance Now if ignorance be cause of sickness and death you have no more to reply S. No indeed But I hear learned men say that 't is not in the power of nature to keep a man from death and therefore I fear not ignorance should be the cause thereof M. But what if ignorance or sin be the cause why nature cannot keep a man from death let 's see death comes either by violence or sickness violence from man or beast or some dead thing But if men had not sin'd they would neither have falâ— out nor have been surpris'd by chance which proceeds from not foreseeing so that from Man no hurt could have proceeded Beasts would all have been tame and in fear of man as we see those be which use men's company or as others might be made And for Accidents unless a man puts himself in danger they would not arrive likewise if we look into the cause of sickness in Physicians books we shall see it proceeds from some excess or defect which in that state would not have been when man had wit and will to provâ—de against both S. Sir that was an happy age or rather would have been if man had kept his honour in which God had plac'd him M. True but yet this we have would not be miserable if our selves did not make it so by our own fault not seeing what 's before our eyes For consider if you please what 's more cause of fin unto us than pleasure yet no Sin can be without displeasure S. Sir that were hard to perswade since we see men daily think nothing sweet but it which could not be did they experience continual displeasure in it M. Can you doubt but that must needs grieve a man which is against his inclination and nature then if Reason be the nature of man how can he see himself do against reason which nevertheless every sin does without grief and pain Again does not sin set our hearts upon goods which may be taken from us as money meat play and the like it puts us then in perpetual danger of vexation grief for who looses what he 's in love with must needs be grieved according to the measure of his love Again if Reason have fore-cast of what 's to come and memory of what 's past Sense which is the cause of sin onely consideration of the present is 't not manifest that sin by sense precipitates us into future inconveniencies which Reason keeps us out of Again Reason has one conduct and government through all occurrences But Sense as many severall motions as the things desir'd are different which because they are not ever had together make the vitious man now follow one now another and sometimes miss