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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A68566	A briefe discouery of the vntruthes and slanders (against the true gouernement of the Church of Christ) contained in a sermon, preached the 8. [sic] of Februarie 1588. by D. Bancroft and since that time, set forth in print, with additions by the said authour. This short ansvver may serue for the clearing of the truth, vntill a larger confutation of the sermon be published.	Penry, John, 1559-1593.; Bancroft, Richard, 1544-1610. Sermon preached at Paules Crosse the 9. of Februarie. Selections.	1590 (1590)	STC 19603; ESTC S114383	37,378	68

aduantage that you haue bene suffered to preach and to publish many grounds of popery vnreprooued vnder the profession of the gospell The Church of God we reuerence to bee wilfull in standing against her or any member therof we holde it vnlawfull but that men should stand in matters of question vnto her determination as vnto the vndoubted voyce of God she hath no authority to require any such obedience at our hands I dare say for you that you are vexed at the verie heart that any thing established in the Conuocation house should bee called in question when you prooue that assembly to be lawfull and the learned fathers as you call them there met to bee true Pastors and not rauening wolues wee will promise to giue greater reuerence vnto their degrees Poperie is so bannished from amonge vs that by the authority of those learned fathers you dare in open Pulpit and publike writinges iustifie many points thereof Answere to the 46.47.48.49 pages It is not onely lawfull but necessary that all men of what state soeuer they bee should be required yea compelled by the Magistrate to subscribe vnto true religion 2. Chron. 14.12 cap. 34 31.32 2. Kings 11.17 Nehem. 9.38 10.29 This we doe willingly confesse Howbeit we hold it vnlawfull to subscribe in that forme that our Bishops do exact at our hands Your reason that subscription is lawfull therefore the English or the Augustane subscription is lawfull is no other then if I should say that religion is good therefore the popishe religion is good But of all other points in your booke I cannot but greatly wonder that you seeme to iustifie the subscription vnto the Augustine confession and the silenceing of those that would not subscribe vnto it Page 47. lin 24 You are not ignoraunt I thinke that the saide confession is vnsound in the point of the Lords supper which hath set Germany on fire these many yeares As for the subscription which in England is required by statute our men haue beene alwaies ready to yeelde vnto it But the learned fathers whereof you speake seeing that by the same subscription they could haue no aduantage against the truth haue coyned a new one of their own which we hold vtterly vnlawfull because it requireth our consent vnto the popish hierarchie vnto the Apocripha and many other corruptions The which course of theirs because they are not able to iustifie therefore haue you done well to finde out a waye whereby they may easilie determine of any question or difficultie mooued vnto them So that now if we deny to subscribe vnto that which against law they require of vs vntill we be satisfied in the douts wee make whether it may be lawfull for vs to maintaine the proud and ambitious superioritie of one minister aboue another the appointing of ignorant and godlesse men vnto the Ministerie the crosse in Baptisme the prophanation of that Sacrament by women with other manifolde abuses which we are vrged to approoue their answere may be according vnto your rule that they beeing the learned fathers of our Church haue in their lawfull assemblies decreed that this subscription should bee called for and they see no reason why popery being now bannished c. wee should not attribute as much vnto their decrees as other men in times past haue done Looke M. Bancroft in the place set downe before And so if we were dutifull children we would submit our selues without any wilful contradiction vnto their godlie determination seeing the Lord hath by his promise tied himselfe vnto them being his Church for this purpose Now if we shall reply any thing againe as being vnsatisfied by this resolution wee are presently cried out vppon as being giddie Spirites and men that cannot bee content with any good order established by lawe and approoued by our betters euen such as gaue their bloud for the testimony of the truth And thus in stead of answering our reasons they inuent slanders against vs and fall out with our conclusion according vnto Master Bancrofts manner of dealing Whereof as I haue often before admonished the reader so nowe I haue special occasion to put him in minde of the same concerning his dealing with vs touching the booke of common prayer and the point of her maiesties supremacy Wherein he spendeth 20. pages for the most part From the 50. to the 72. pages wee shewe diuers corruptions to be in that booke wee set downe the particulars as baptim by weomen crosse in baptime ring in matriage appropriating of garmentes to the vse of religion and grosser coruptions as Arianisme where the booke maketh Michael to bee a creature The Collect on Michaels day and addeth vnto the word as psalme 14. in which place 3. verses that is the 5.6.7 are added vnto the text more then euer the holy Ghost penned in that psalme with other grieuous corruptions which I passe ouer Nowe howe doth M. Bancroft thinke you deale for the credit of the booke in answering these particulars hee toucheth not one of them but first of all hee telleth his auditors howe glad al the churches in Europ were at the establishing of religion Page 15. in the beginning of her Maiesties raigne And for our partes wee wish them confusion that doe not reioice at it Page 53. From 54.58 Secondly hauing set down what paines was taken in reforming the booke hee bringeth in diuers testimonies of godlye learned men to prooue that the booke is in a manner without spotte or wemme whereby what doth hee els but fall out with our conclusion Wee charge the booke with diuers particular corruptions we bring our proofes Page 61. he is not able to answere them Therefore our conclusion wil stand firme that the booke is corrupt The general commendations of all the men in the world is not able to cleare it when it is not denied to containe many grosse particular falts Thirdely he falleth a quarreling with a newe communion booke preferred in parliament Page 62.63 the yeare 86. and caueleth diuers waies against the same As that it had bin diuers times altered that it mencioned not the ciuil magistrate in the first edition and that it doth not tye the minister to any set forme of prayer c. Al which points I omit as friuolous and vngodly cauils not to be stood vpon Lastly he falleth to his olde bias that is to plaine slaundering Page 67. and affirmeth that one of our reasons whie wee holde the established gouernment of the church of England to be Antichristian is because the ciuil Magistrate is made a Pope amongst vs and that we cal her maiesties supremacie vnto question wherevnto wee answere no otherwise then Nehemiah did Sanballat Nehem. 6.8 It is not done according vnto these wordes that thou sayest but thou fainest them of thine own hart Looke whatsoeuer prerogatiue in ecclesiastical or ciuil causes hee or any man liuinge can truly attribute vnto the ciuil magistrate wee

do the same Concerning the preheminence in ciuill causes there is no great question he wil say between vs Page 71. only in ecclesiastical matters we assume vnto our selues saith he that authoritie which by right is the magistrats This slander is general we desire the particular proofe of it wee cannot answere generalles hee repheth that the magistrate by lawe is to haue whatsoeuer priuiledg the pope at any time had with in this land by vsurpation Page 70. lin 3. what will hee conclude hereof Not I hope that the magistrate is to haue the power of remitting sinnes and dispensing with the law of God which the Pope by vsurpation had in times past within this kingdome Her Maiestie wee know detesteth al such prerogatiues from her hart But what is it that he requireth to be graunted vnto the ciuil authoritie which wee yelde not most willingly The power to establish godly ecclesiastical lawes and constitutions amongest the subiects wee are so far from denying this that wee holde it intollerable that our Bishops and the conuocation house should intrude their subscriptions aduertisements and cannons vpon the subjectes whereas no such things can be warrāted by statute And whereas hee sayth that wee claime vnto our Presbiteries the ordinary authoritie to make al lawes constitutions and ceremonies of the Church it is most false Al that wee affirme in this point is noe more then her majestie voluntarily yealdeth in all such cases when the question is whether such or such a case be statute law or not whether doth M. Bancroft think her majestie or her learned councel in the lawe as her judges Solliciters Atturneis c. to haue greatest skill in the deciding of this matter he knoweeth well enough that her Majesty in all such points will be directed by that which her aforesaid lawiers do prooue to be law and equitie and yet thinketh her royall prorogatiue no whit diminshed thereby In the like case then we say that the true gouernors of the church are meetest to direct her majesty what lawes and ceremonies are most lawfull expedient necessary for the right gouernment of the church And we say that as her majestie in worldly matters is to giue eare vnto the Lawiers which haue skill in that facultie so in the matters of God is she to establish nothing in the church but that which the true ministers and true gouernors if they may bee had shall shew vnto her to be according vnto the worde of GOD. And yet all this while wee make not the gouernours of the Church to haue power to enact laws we leaue that authoritie vnto her Majesty and the Parliament vnto whose hands the Lord hath committed it This indeed we affirme Moreouer that her majesty and the Parliament are bound to establish and erect amongst their subiects al such lawes and ceremonies as the true Ministers of the word shall prooue by the Scriptures of God to bee meet and necessary for the gouernment of the temple and house of the Lord within this kingdome And that they are bound to see that no forme of religion or Church-gouernment be in force amongst the subjectes but that alone which by the word of God may bee prooued lawfull and so that they are bound to see that the Church of God bee clensed and purified of all Idolatrous popish superstious and superfluous gouernment and ceremonies And furthermore we say that they are to prouide by law that all persons both Ministers and others doe submit themselues without contradiction vnto all such things as shall bee godly established in the Church Whether this bee M. Bancroft to weaken or call into question her Maiesties prerogatiue in Ecclesiastical causes let the reader determin We would also desire him to iudge whether her Majestie be well vsed at your hands which call her a petty Pope and say that shee vsurpeth the same authority in causes page 68. lin 2● Ecclesiasticall with in her dominions which the pope did in times past Had we cōceiued much lesse published any such things wee had worthily smarted for it Your answere heere will be that you did bring in this reason to shew the weakenes of Martins arguments against the Bishops Let Martin in other points answere for himselfe The case of her Majestie and our Bishops are not alike He prooueth our Bishops to be petty Popes and vsurpers you denie it not And therefore you onely addresse your selfe to shew what a rebellious and absurd conclusion hee hath made by the like kinde of reasoning as you suppose And where his minor truly assumeth our bishoppes to be vsurpers and petty Popes you falsely and standerously charge her Maiestie to bee an vsurper and a petty Pope Wee are not so hastie to shead bloud as you are otherwise this your vndutifulnes is so heinous that I could easily shewe that there were no other waye of desence for you but in the acknowledgement of your rash boldnes to giue your doings no worse tearmes to flie vnto her Maiesties clemency TOVCHING SCOTLAND VVE answere that we desire not the Eldershipp to be planted in the Church of England From the. 72. to the 78. page because Scotland or Geneua enjoyeth the same but in asmuch as Christ Iesus the head king of his church hath commaunded it to bee therein And therefore we admit the gouernment of no church vnder heauen to be the p●●●●●e of that which we desire but only that regiment which is set downe in the word of God the perfection whereof if any Church hath attained vnto wee rejoice with them and desire to be pertakers of so great a blessing in the Lods good time But as for any thing that is amisse if there be ought either in Geneua or Scotlande wee labour no more to haue that established in England then we doe to haue the great abuses that raigned in the Church of Corinth or Galatia to be imitated The slaunder which you haue raised Page 75. both against the Kings Maiesty there in giuing out that he is a deadly enemy vnto the present gouernement established in his kingdome and watcheth but his time to ouer throw it and also against the godly ministers of that realm in making them traitors vnto their soueraign Heaue to be answered by thēselues and I dout not but you wil in time be forced to answere the iniury that you haue offered vnto that godly and noble King o● and also vnto the whole Church with in his dominion But let it bee graunted that the true Church gouernours in Scotland behaued themselues rebelliously towards then Prince which yet is most false what is that to the Church gouernment which they enioly Doe you thinke it a good season to say that the Archbishop is a Traitour therefore the Archbishopricke is gilty of Treason You can not deny but Thomas Becke● was a traitor so were diuers others that haue beene Archbishops of Canterbury but I trust you will not therefore attaint the Archbishopricke of treason

to her Maiesties estate and prerogatiue And wee on the otherside that fauour reformation doe from the bottome of our hearts entreat and beseech the eternall God speedily to conuert and turne all such if they be his or els with speed to ouerthrowe them in his fierce wrath And as for our selues in particular if we who in sincerity seeke the reformation of the Church of England be either false Prophets Scismatiques giddy spirits disturbers of the Church enemies vnto her Maiesties estate or person we do without exception entreat the Lorde in his fierie wrath and anger euen this hower to make vs visible monuments of his great indignatiō both in this life and in the day of the Lord Iesus roote the memory of vs and ours out of the Church and kingdome of England for euer that our most deare Soueraigne Queene Elizabeth may continue and end her daies not onely in the quietnes of her own conscience but also in the coniunction quietnes and vnion of the hearts of all her Subiects and people And wee offer not onely to cleare our selues by these our voluntary protestations made in the name and presence of the great God of heauen and erth but euen by shewing the goodnes of our cause according vnto the worde and answering whatsoeuer the aduersary bringeth against vs. And what can wee doe more Let vs then M. Bancroft see what you can say of vs or our cause Here I omit whatsoeuer in your whol Sermon is impertinent vnto us against whome you especially deale and come to the eight page thereof where at the first meeting you doe very brotherly salute vs by the names of false Prophets though of your courtesie your care not much if you omit the name D. BANCROFT Pag. 8. line 10. Lastly they are false Prophetes who do peruert the meaning of the Scriptures for the maintenance and defence of any false doctrine scisme of heresie Herof you know I might giue you many examples I pray you beare with me if I set downe one as strange in my opinion as any to be found in a matter of no great importance The name of false prophets I am content in diuers respects to suppresse The matter it selfe which I meane standeth in this sort There are many nowe a daies who doe affirme that when Christ vsed these wordes DTC ECCLESIAE Math. 18 He meant hereby to establish in the Church foreuer the same plot and forme of Ecclesiasticall Gouernement to be en●ct in euery parish which Moses by 〈…〉 counsell appointed in mount Sinay Numb 11. and which afterward the●● was did imitate in their particular Sinagogues ANSVVERE They 〈…〉 read your Sermon will beare you witnes that you are sufficiently able to afforde your auditours an example of a false teacher And yet it were hard to account all those to be false Prophets without exception who peruert the meaning of the worde to the maintenaunce of euery point of false doctrine For we know that many of the true Ministers of God haue in the error of their iudgement held some points of vnsound doctrine and peruerted the meaning of the holy scripture for the maintenance of the same To speake nothing of Cyprian Chrisostome Ierome Augustme and especially Origen and Barnard who haue had euery one of them their blemishes and wrested the word for the defence thereof that worthy man of God M. Luther you know hath deliuered vniustifiable and false doctrine concerning the manner of receiuing of the thing signified to wit Christ Iesus in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper and as it may bee truly sayde hee hath peruerted many places of the worde for the maintenance of this his error yet M. Bancroft I thinke you will not inrolle him in the catalogue of false Prophets Wherefore if I denied the ground and principle of your reason and sent you again vnto your note book for a better description of a false Prophet I should do nothing contrary vnto equity and reason But I meane not to stand with you in a maner of so small moment seeing especially you do by this your discription teach the reader what account he is to make of you and your brethren of the same crewe who daily in your Sermons and writings do wrest peruert and abuse the sacred word of God for the maintenaunce of most false and pernicious doctrine whereof it may bee some thing shall be spoken hereafter But I pray you who are they that expound the words of our sauiour Christ Mat. 18. Dic ecclesiae Tell the Church to bee referred to the Ecclesiasticall gouernment which Moses by Iethroes counsell appointed in mount Sinai you say they are manie why then did you not name one of them or quote the writings of some one of them Euen indeed because you are not able to father this absurditie vpon none of those whome you would gladly beare the world in hand to be the maintainers therof A godlesse and slanderous shift of M. Bancro●● And heere the reader is to bee aduertised that among many shiftes which you haue to obscure the truth delude your readers and auditors and to colour your slanderous vntruthes there is one whereof you make a speciall vse and that is to charge vs with the defence of such points as wee neuer held Thinking it sufficient for you to say that there are many now a daies who affirme that when our Sauiour Christ c. Whereas the error as you haue set it downe is so absurd and sencelesse and smelleth of such grosse ignorance as I assure my selfe that none who haue written in the cause of reformation since the beginning of her maiesties raign vnto this hower could bee so groslye ouerseene as to conceiue much lesse holde and maintaine any such thing as you haue vttered For first the officers appointed Num. 11. and I beseech the reader to marke were not ordained at mount Sinai Not at mount Sinai as you haue set down but as the holy Ghost expresly noteth at Kibroth Hataauah Numb 11. which was 3. daies iorney from mount Sinai compare Numb 10.33 with Numb 11 24.34 and 33.16 and Deut. 1.1 And therefore it is very absurd to aduouch that the 70. Elders mencioned Num. 11. were ordained at mount Sinai and it is no lesse false to giue our Not at the coūsel of Iethro that these were the officers appointed by Moses at the coūsel of Iethro For Iethroes aduise was put in execution Exod. 18.12 40.17 before the erecting of the Tabernacle euen in the first year of their departure out of Aegypt The ordinance of the 70. elders taken in hand after the setting vp of the Tabernaele Exod. 40.17 Numb 10.11 ●2 after the 20. day of the 2. moneth of the 2. yeare Againe the gouernours in Kibroth-Hataauah were but 70. or at the most 72. in number the other ordained by the counsel of Iethro being gouerners of 1000. gouernors of 100. gouernors of 50. gouernors of 10. must

Browne a knowne Scismatike is a man very fit to be one of your witnesses against the Eldership Page 75. lin 29 His entertainment in Scotland was such as a proud vngodly man deserued to haue God giue him and you repentance if it be his will otherwise you shall make and hard reckoning both of you before the iudgement feate of Iesus Christ for the slaunders which you haue raised vp against the gouernement of his kingdome heere vpon earth Your calender deceiued you for it was not the Parliament of the yeare 88. where of hee wrote Page 76. lin 4. but of another held Anno 86. or before If any thing be written amisse in any of the books that you mencion Page 78. wee haue nothing to doe therewith Bring our owne assentions and you shal be answered We holde it altogether vnlawfull for Ministers and Church officers to deale in any ciuil cause much more to depose Princes and therfore our attempts that way are not to be feared Looke you Page 79. your masters vnto those thinges who arrogat vnto your selues that preheminence which is in deede dangerous vnto the throne of the magistrate and thinke Parliaments and lawes cannot bee halfe orderly kept and enacted without Lords spirituall Your feare Page 80. lect 3 that whatsoeuer hath bene done or written in forraine Countries is laboured to haue execution with vs at home is but the ouerflowing of your gall The disease is daungerous and you may one day aunswere for your distemp●rature in his presence before whome the imaginers of euill against their brethren shall haue their reward We holde indeede Rom. 13.2 that the Magistracie is gods ordinance bee he a good or a bad Page 81. an heathen or a Christian that is called thereunto so that the right of a Christian and an heathen Magistrate within his dominions is the same You that hold the contrary professe your selfe not to bee a subiect for conscience sake as the Apostle commaundeth but for some other respect So you would bee very dutifull belike if you were vnder an heathen Prince Ministers wee say are not to deale in ciuill causes Page 82. lin 27 and therefore in that point wee ascribe vnto the Magistrate both Potestatē juris facti that is power to make lawes to execute them If there arise anie difficultie as often as it commeth to passe of that which is agreable vnto the law of God in matters that are controverted then indeed it is the Ministers dutie to enforme the Magistrate of the mind of the Lord wherein hee doth nothing els but respondere de jure shewe what the will of God is that the magistrat may statuere de facto pronounce sentence accordingly For Ecclesiasticall matters it is the word of God onely that therein hath potestatē juris the power to determin what is acceptable in the sight of God the Minister ought to haue the knowledge thereof that he may declare the same both vnto Magistrate and people The Church officers also are appointed of God to execute all ecclesiastical maters And if you should attribute this power vnto the magistrate the imagistrate might iustly account of you as you are For will you haue the Magistrate to preach the word administer the Sacramentes take the charge of watching ouer the maners of the people and distributing to the pore within his parish or will you haue him to visite the sicke comfort the weake ordaine ministers discusse controuersies in religion exercise the church censures by excommunications c. And yet these are the only maters which wee account ecclesiasticall wherein alone we hold it lawfull for church officers to deale other punishments of malefactors as imprisoning fining or any mulct that toucheth the life body or goodes of men are only to be reterced to the Magistrates who beare the sword for that purpose Our Bishops vsurping this sword doe shewe that they and their fathers house and not wee doe labour to bring and maintaine confusion in church common wealth You exhortation both vnto people and magistrates Page 85. that the one shoulde avoide and the other punish heretical spirits we imbrace withal our harts Being ready to shewe as our writings haue done at large that your errors corruptions idlenes pride ambition slaunders and vntruthes vttered against the truth hath not only as dayly experience teacheth vs begotten and nourished the lamentable ignorance which euery where raigneth in this land but alsoe called for the wrath of God to fal vppon vs because such vnruly and wicked spirits as you are tollerated in the holy ministerye amongest vs. Page ●6 You are now come to the gathering vppe of your standers and vntruche into an heape in the conclusion of your sermon lest the readers and auditors shoulde forget that you are an impudent slaunderer And therefore that you may incense the magistrates against vs in one place especially you rake thē vp after this manner Hir Majestie is depraued hir authority is impugned and greate dangers are threatned Page 57 to 19● M Doct. think● belike that wee are maintainers of the hierarchy Ciuil gouerment is called into question princes pretogatiues are curiously scanned the interest of the people in kingdomes is greatly aduaunced al gouernment generally is pinched at comemened The Church is condemned the auncient fathers are despised your preachers are defaced and yet these men are tollerated Whereunto I answere with the wise man that the lying tonge slayeth the soule Pron 12.6 and that the very wordes of the wicked lye in wayte for blood but the mouth of the righteous wil deliuer them And so wee doubt not whensoeuer wee are araigned for any of these heauy accusations but that wee shal bee deliuered from this bloody tonge The reader knoeth that as a noble Emperour spake in the like case if it be sufficient to accuse no man can be innocent Nowe if he hath these aduantages against any of vs let him set down his particulars and name the man or his writings and he shal be answered Otherwise we make no other account of such Epistrophaes homoioteleutaes page 88. line 4. then of the barking and dogge Rethorick of some profane Lucian or god lesse Porphirie It is no news for vs to haue our legs thighs desired to be broken Ioke 19.30 The reader is to remember that this was the Iewes requests vnto Pilate concerning our Sauiour Christ and therefore wee are not to thinke it strange that M. Bancroft is guided by their spirit whose place he supplieth But this wee are to knowe that neither he not his masters shal do any thing against vs but that which the Lord our God hath long since determined and therewith by his grace Act. 4 1● wee hope to be right wel contented In stead of arming his hearers with reasons out of the word against vs whome he accounteth sect masters and false Prophets hee commeth