then will he conclude of an ynch an ell off a week a moneth off a moneth half a yeare and off a case off necessitie make an ordinary licence when S. Paul will haue him which entreth into this warfare off ministry to vnwrap him self off all occasions which may drawe him from yt being already entred he will much lesse suffer that he should ether feek new occasions off absence or take all that are offered Our Sauiour Christ not suffring those whom he called to this worke to goe bury their dead and giue the farewell vnto those off their howse declared sufficiently that they owght to be very vrgent cawses which should drawe the mynister off the word from the charge committed vnto him And when his loue towardes God must be moten by feeding off his flocke committed vnto his charge his long and often voluntary absence must needes proue a small loue in him towardes the lord Which reason being alledged is altogether vnanswered This rare absence and that vppon vrgent cawse may appeare a so by the practise of the church The Councell off Mens decreing that the Bishop vpon sickenes or some other vrgent cause off absence not able to preach should haue some euery sonday and other festdayes to preach in his steed declareth that the vse off the church did nether suffer the bishop to be away but vpon great cawse and that not so much as one holy day withowt a preaching minister to supply his place Augustine saieth that he vvas not absent frō the church of Hippo but cōpelled by sickenes Zuinglius putting difference betweene an Apostel and Pastor saieth that he that doth the office off a Pastor is alvvaies in the povver of the church ouer vvhich he is set and neuer goeth from it Vppon which both testimonies off the scripture and practise off the church yt appeareth how to haue a deputy owght not to be as the D. would haue it an accoustomed thing but rare and vpon vrgent causes Where before he alledgeth for profe off a deputy that there is no shepherd which hath not a boy or a man to supply his absence he owght to vnderstand that our Sauiour Christ is that master shephherd and therefore he being but a seruant can no more set ones his charge then one seruant discharge him self vppon an other Beside what sheepmaister is there of so smal housbandry which will be content that his stipend should be mangled and a portion giuen vnto an hyreling for a monethly or quarterly ouersight off his flocke suffer the shepherd to enioy the rest yt may well be for the poursprofit off the shepherd but it can not be but to the great scare off the sheep considering that not onely the hyred can not by any likelyhood haue that care ouer the flocke which the proper pastor hath but also that all this disputacion tendeth hether that they may haue a reading or other in sufficient substitute which as the shepherdes boy or rather eurr content with a locke or twoo will leaue Maister Person the maister shepherd the rest off the fleese For such is their fidelity that where as in times past the preistes are commaunded to beare the arck vpon their owne shoulders so they should feed their flockes them selues they are not onely content to shift yt from their owne shoulders but as the foolish and idle preistes in committing yt to such vnstilfull gouernours they lay yt vpon a cart hale yt with oxen not with the aduenture but with certeine euent of an ouerthrow Although herein I speak too fauorably off the greatest nombre off them which doo not bestowe so muche coste as a new cart and a draft off oxen come to For they haue learned their howsebandry rather off him which teacheth that alvvaies it standeth a man in least vvhich may be doon by a poore asse And if this carting off the church of God were sent home to our popish Philisthins from whence yt came the kitchen fyre being thereby well abbated this disputation for adeputy would be well cooled For an able man would either for conscience or honesties sake kepe him selfe from this hyrelingship I say consciēce because amongest other corruptions he can not auoide the crime off Simony as they call yt whylest to obteine a place he is content to part stakes with the Pastor Honesty whylest all not seruill minded will rather choose to be free then vnder the yoke off an other mannes seruice His second questiō whether the flocke be not in like daunger in the Pastors absence with leaue as withowt is altogether from the pourpose when it is no lawfull for him nether with leaue nor without leaue to be away with daunger off his flocke His third where I finde in scripture that the Pastor owght to haue leaue off his parish is answered in that I shewed that the Pastors are belonging to their churches and are their seruantes which he altogether passeth by His laste asketh how he cā in his absence haue an able deputy seing he may not be admitted to the ministery which hath not a certeine flocke As though in suche necessitie for so small a time the supply may not be made by the Pastors hard by which is also answer to that he obiecteth pag. 249. Vnto the next diuis I answer not Vpon that many parishes may be ioined in one and fix townes in Fraunce as he saith are committed vnto one Pastor he concludeth that one Pastor may haue diuers flockes which is vnworthy any answer As if a thowsand sheep in one pasture were not easelier and with more cōmoditie tended then three in three sheepgates For as towching the preaching off the word and administring the Sacramentes vnto diuers townes assembled into one bodie vff a church the labour is almoste all one in ten and ten hundred The residue off the charge being commen with him vnto the rest off the elders may be especially in such necessities borne owt by increasing their numbre according to the compas off the churches territorie Yt is also vntrue that he affirmeth I haue saide that the numbre or distance off place is all one And yt is inconuenient that ether a greater numbre be assembled into the bodie off one particular church then can be at once tawght off one mouth or that the numbre should be taken owt off townes farther remoued from the places off the churches resort then that they may haue conuenient accesse Likewise yt is vntrue which he saith off six townes to one Pastor in Fraunce For although one church be assembled owt off diuers townes yet it falleth owt that the least part off those townes perteineth vnto the church and those fewe meet together in one place to receiue the nourriture prouided for them off the Lord by the hand off their Pastor To that alledged that the Pastor if he vvill haue many flockes should content him selff vvith that stipend off them all vvhich
The second replie of Thomas Cartwright agannst Maister Doctor Whitgiftees second answer touching the Churche Discipline Isay 62. vers 1. For Syons sake I will not hould my tonge and for Ierusalems sake I will not reste vntill the righteousnes therof break forth as the light and the saluation therof be as a burning lampe Ibid. vers 6. 7. Ye that are the Lordes remembrancers kepe not silence and gyue him no rest vntill he repaire and set vp Ierusalem the praise off vvorld Imprinted M. D. LXXV To the Churche off England and all that Loue the trueth in yt Thomas Cartwright Wisheth mercy and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe THe Church off God so ofte vs scripture not compared onely but figured in the Citie Ierusalem serueth for instruction in this cause For as in yt the wal first broken downe was last made vp againe and that more then 14. yeares after the temple builded so is yt commenly in the spirituall wal off the churche whiche is the discipline the lorde appointed aswel for strenght of yt as for houlding out of all aduersarie power whether yt be corruption off doctrine or manners The first is to be seen in the Act. of thapostles where after the churches gathered by preaching there was an eldership seuerally placed in them to whom the execution of the church discipline doth especially appertain The other may as easily appear to him that considereth the estate off the churche after the Apostles by monuments off those times in which allwaies as this fort off gouernement left by them was first suffred to decaie so the purenes of doctrine decreased vntill the churche yt selfe except a few stones here and there scattered was browght to heapes off dust Yf yâ— be asked why the discipline hauing right to entre with the doctrine findeth not alwaies that fauour amongest men The cause â—s apparant that when Satan can not gain this first point to houlde the doctrine owt off a city or Kingdome he sweareth after the second that yt may be there with smallest fruict and shortest continuance Wherin let I beseche yow be considered his doings against the building off the wal off Ierusalem For if he bestirred himself so in hindering that materiall wal it wil be les meruaile yf for hinderance off this spirituall he trudge to and fro open his whole pack off subtilties and as yt is in prouerb bestovv both â—vet and dry And first touching the persons he vseth in his fight against both they are not much vnlike For in steed off a bastard kinde off Israelites Apostataes from God and his tru seruice which were there the foreine enemies we haue now the Papistes who as shal appear he set in the forward of this battail against the discipline now propounded And as now we haue within the church whiche couered with the name off the gospel and off the teachers theroff giue a more daungerous assault then the Papistes So were there then euen off the Iewes them selues vnder gouerners and Prophetes which secretly and openly opposed them selues As for the practises they are so like in bothe that all which will open their eies maie easely espie the same workeman For as the enemies then placed their cheef strenght in accusations against the church that yf it vvere suffered to laie the foundacioÌ„s of the vval it vvould moue seditioÌ„ and rebel against the Kinge euen so our aduersary to arme the Prince against this cause soundeth nothing more then rebellion sedition and suche like Yf this were not able to discrie or at least to giue warning off this vnfaithfull dealing yet this may That these are the verie weapons off the papistes which not able amongest vs with so great succes to be vsed by them selues as those which are knowne enemies haue bene ministred to the D. that being throwne owte off his hand in whose mouthe is the gospell they might be thowght to haue bene made for defence which were forged for ouerthrow of yt For where Brentius teacheth that the ministers owght not to beare dominion ouer the churches like princes Hosius accuseth him that by the same meane he vvent about to displace Caesar And vpon like occasion that vve vvould ouerthrovv al kingdomes and superiority that men might doe vvat they liste That yf the Almans had once shaken off the Pope they vvould shake off Caesar sone after Yf these be compared with diuers off the D. accusations and namely with that page 455. lin 1. yt will be meruail that onles he were in this point taught by the same spirit Hosius was he could iump so euen not onely with the like accusation but almost with the same wordes But this shall better appeare in discours off this boke where ys shewed not onely that he hathe the like but the verie self same cause with the grossest Papistes I say the grossest for that in some pointes as off the churches election and pastorall residence there are found off them more fauorable to the trwth then he which ioining with Catholike writers both ould and of our time haue written against the estate off the Popish churche in that behalf And that no mans simplicity be abused by an owtward profession off the gospell as thowgh yt were vnlike that they which professed yt should be enimies to the trwe discipline or vncredible that the same whiche cry out off the Tyranny off Antechrist shoulde refuse the moderat and wholsom gouernement of Christ yt may please them to vnderstand that this cause hathe before this bydden the assault not off the Papistes alone but euen off them which make shew off so deadly war with papistry that the greatest force of their resistance hathe bene a feare ether pretended or vainly phansied least the gyuing place to the discipline shoulde draw after yt the popishe Tyranny Capito a man off singuler learning and godlines affirmeth that it was obiected vnto them whiche vvente about to restore the discipline that they vvould be Tyrans ouer the churche vvhich vvas free and cal back againe a nvve popedome M. Bucer SataÌ„ goeth about that by restoring of the discipline the faithfull Ministers should be thovvght to seek ambitously the same Tyranny vvhich Antechrist did M. Beza vvhen the Eldership and excoÌ„municatioÌ„ vvere to be instituted there vvaÌ„ted not vvhich cried ovvt that the popish tyranny vvas by that meanes called back again also that the magistrats office vvas therby in parte inuaded Now if these slaunders be compared with the Answerers al may vnderstand that althowgh the instrments vsed against the discipline vary in tyme and countrie yet the autor misleading some by simplicitie and thrusting other headlong throwgh couetousnes or ambition ys the same in our countrey which was then in Germany Fraunce or Sanoy For that the discipline now propounded is the same whiche suffered this coÌ„tradiction off certein professors off the Gospell shall manifestly appear in this discours and may be
wal abowt the citie or hedg about the orcheiard Yf we thinck that men vvhiche vvoulde be safe from their enemies need not greatly to trauail after a wal or they which vvould haue their tender plantes bring plentifull fruict and be vntowched off hurfull beastes not muche to labour after a hedg or diche for safegarde of them then we may also thinck that the church and the doctrine of the Apostels wherupon the church is builded may long continw and florish vvithowt the discipline lefte by them But if the one be not to be looked for the hoping for the other will but deceiue vs Whereof if there were no proof but our own experience the case is clearer then can be wel denied For vvhereof cometh it that so many thowsandes I will not say of men and women but of townes and villages remain in suche ignorance of all dutie towards God and their neighbour that the estate off their ox vvhiche vvith his last breath shal end his labour and hear no more the voice of the whip is a thousand times better then theirs vvhom euerlasting tomentes of body and sowl vvait for and must assuredly ensue if they so remaine Cometh it not hereof that in steed of a learned ministery vvhiche shoulde shewe them the right way be thrust vppon them at the pleasure or permission off the bishop and appetite off the patrone blinde guides vvhich scarce knowe a foot of it them selues yea which sometimes as cometh to pas in sondry popishe priestes that remaine endeuour to turn them out off the way if happily any were entred Wheroff cometh it that off those which haue able ministers to feed them diuers townes can not yet get owt of this condēnation ys it not thereof that some pastors like couetous nourses charging them selues with moe then they are able to nource suffer them all to starue that other some more vnnaturall then the dragons them selues which laie owt their brestes vnto their yong by dispensation turn awaie their faces quite from them whose mouthes are almost neuer open to teache but vvhen their handes are likewise to receiue And if some in a good intent to help many lend one hande to one congregation and his other vnto another yet when ether of them require both handes to be pulled owt off the mire wherin they stick so fast his fault being a great deal les then the others the peoples condemnation remaineth the same Wheroff also ys y◠that in diuers off those Townes where the gospell hath daily shined the darcknes of ignorance hath not bene put to flight Cometh yt not thoroff that many speaking smally to purpose off the text they handle or blowing vp their sermons ether with poetes fables sayinges off Philosophers and that oft in straunge language amaze them rather with a wōndermēt of their learning then edifie thē in faith and trw repentance And not that onely but therby also bring them owt of al tast with all simple and plain kind off teaching so that they which doe not so are called by reproche English Doctors Which by oftē meetings of the ministers in exercice off Prophecie or interpretacion of some scripture through mutual censures and admonitions would easely be remedied Wheroff is it that euen vvhere the gospel is soundly and abūdandly taught knowledg hath not accordingly folowed Ys it not therof that the principles and groundes of religiō are not by Catechism laid forth that those of whose ether capacity or diligēce yt is doubted are not that a supply may be made particulerly examined Wheroff cometh yt that Arians Valentinians and Anabaptistes in diuers sortes with suche other detestable heretikes are so rife in many places of the land Ys it not therof that there is no eldership which might assist the pastor to espie them out no pastorable by substancial reasons to conuince them no autoritie there to decide of them or after decision by ecclesiasticall censures to punish them Wheroff cometh yt that horrible blaspheming the holy and most reuerend name of God quarreling and fighting dronckennes filthy speaking fornicatiō adultery slaundering and suche like run ouer almost in euery place off which some are so open that there is no night or corners sowght to hid them but are doen in the high streates and at noon daies yea which is fearful that often there is more daunger to them that reproue these faultes then to those which cōmit them Ys it not hereof that there is no eldership to watche ouer these offences to admonish the offenders and by ecclesiasticall censures to correct them Wheroff cometh it that in so many excellent lawes prouided against roges and beggers there are yet to the manifest breach of the law of God and hasard of the commen wealth such nombers Ys it not heroff that the office off Deacons which god had ordeined for that purpose the bare name remaining is abolished and that the Lord will giue no blessing to those good lawes because his order is neglected Finally hereof it cometh that hauing a gracious Prince mainteining and her honorable Counsall fauoring the preaching of the gospell in so long and quiet peace apt for the furtherance off yt there is notwithstanding so smal fruict that sauing a few which the lord hath gathered for the generall estate of the Realme the Gospell may seem hetherto rather to haue shined for further condemnation of it then for light or heat of saluation ioined therwith what price therfore we set of the glory off God what accompt we make off the saluacion of our countrey that estimacion we must kepe off the discipline off God left vnto vs by his holy Apostels This if it were deeply weighed it would cause vs to breakthrowgh the lets which I see stay some and make other some to faint in the furtherance of this cause For some whiche desire that this cause might gaine throwgh a mind abhorring from contention especially inward an with them of the same religion stande further of from yt then otherwise they would Wherin I willingly acknowledge Rebeccas affection a figure off the churche off god For notwithstanding she praied vnto the lord for children yet feeling them striue within her Womb wished she had neuer conceiued But alas the state off men is not so happy to obteine any excellent thing without strift Errors and falshood haue often times easy entrance whilest the husbandmen sleep but because the ennemy alwaies waketh the trweth must fight or euer she can get any thing wherin to pas by an infinite number of examples that which is proper to this place off the daungerous assaultes which this cause suffered at Geneua ys worthy off your consideration For albeit the contention there was not in Iudgement onely and in wordes but with great disorders and tumultes to the present daunger off the citie yet M. Caluin and other faithfull seruantes of God offred them selues not onely to los off their ministery and banishment but euen to death rather then
they would goe one foot back from that truth off the discipline which they had learned owt off the word off God which had bene rashly doen if the matter had bene off so smal importance as that for redeming off peace they might haue let the cause of the disciplin fal or laid it aside vntill a fitter time There are God be praised no tumultes nor vprores with vs and I hope there shal be none but as yt is not lawful for vs to moue any so to withdraw the hand from defense off the cause for feare of them to be moued by others is against dutie There are others which as the espies off the land of Canaan confessing it good and profitable for the churche yet in respect of the manifold lets affirme it a thing impossible and therby not onely discorage them selues but weaken the handes off other And euen here also I see Rebecca again For yt appeareth by the lordes answer vnto her tvvo peoples should be deuided ovvt of her bovvls that she was in some dispair off hauing strenght to be deliuered of her desired seed considering the daungerous wrestlings and struglinges in her womb And in deed if we consider our selues if we look vpon our own armes I graunt the walles against it are higher then will be scaled the gates and barres are stronger then wil be broken throwgh the children come to the birth there wil be no strenght to bring forth For herein casting our accōptes we must wait for not onely the misliking of our brethern which be misled the hatred of the obstinat Papistes which see their kingdō vnreparable if this get place but the deadly enimities off Hypocrites and Atheistes which wil not suffer their vntamed lustes to come vnder any yoke off correction nor their lose affections off riotous pleasures proud ambition and vnsatiable couetousnes to be bound vvith any bandes off wholesome discipline But of the other side if we look vnto the lord and his mighty arme which not onely with a blast of his mouth striketh the walles and breaketh the gates in peeces but also maketh the high walles to fall and the yron gates to open of their owne accord which maketh not onely the weak but euen the barē women to bring forth No difficulty or impossibilitie in the iudgement off men owght to turne vs from any lawfull endeuour to promote the cause The example off the wall in Ierusalem finished notwithstanding al the enimies serueth here for our confirmation For if the lord stretched forth his hand for furtherance of that material wall he will not in the aduauncing off this spiritual hould it in his bosome Yf he forsoke not his seruantes vnder heathen Princes he will not be wanting to them vnder Christian Hetherto belongeth the example in Geneua before mentioned The whole estate off the Citie almost from the highest vnto the lowest amongest whom were also the greatest part off the ministers was bent against yt two or three simple men scarce able to traine their legges after them hauing no other armour then the trwth and a good conscience stand for it Yf flesh and bloud should here sit in iudgement the field were lost or euer yt were begun the freendes off the discipline should for that they toke the defense in hand be accounted fooles for that they would not cōpound the matter mad men But what was the issue Verily the Lord so magnified his word in the hand of his seruātes that after trial off their patience by diuers troubles the Capitaines against yt came to shameful end a number yealded the rest that continued their enemitie durst not shew yt the trwth yt self was established and so to the singuler commendation off that citie remaineth And shall we in so great a nomber whose heartes the Lord hath inclined to fauour this cause despaire especially seing yt ys easier to be established with vs then with them and may here be setled withowt so muche as a dog mouing his tong which was not there withowt daungerous vprores For where no wholsom law can pas there onles the most part consent onely the hundreth part with vs weigheth down all the rest Yt remaineth that as the Iwes in the wal off Ierusalem did euery one according to the abilitie the Lord had blessed them with builde his part so those whose hartes the lord hath lightened with the knowledg of this truth should as their callings and meanes which the lord hath giuen them will serue lay their handes to the work That those whom the lord hath giuen fauour or acces vnto her maiestie would set before their eies the exāple of that worthy courtier Nehemias which forgetting his priuat profit and preferment for full recompence of all his faith full seruice vnto his Prince was glad to obtein at his hand the building vp of the walles off the citie of God and therfore not to reserue the grace and credit they haue with her highnes for their owne matters but to bestow yt vpon the Lordes That the Prince her selfe woulde consider how to let pas the daunger vnto her sowle vnworthy yt ys off her honour if throwgh vntrw reportes ether against the cause or fauourers therof she turne away her eare from hearing and taking knowledge of it seing a heathen king did not admit suche rumors against that which concerned the glory off God althowgh they were offred thick and three fould and that by his one coutrey men against the Iwes whiche were but straungers Finally that we all continually pray to the lord that he would vouchsafe to open their eies whiche are yet ignorant in this behalf confirme those which haue knowledge and confound thē if any be which ether for honour or lucres sake willingly bend thē selues against the trueth To the reader THe cause off the slovvnes of ansvver hath bene in part my often sicknes and vvant off bookes off all Sortes a fevv onely excepted vvhich I brovght vvith me and those for the most part English so that for euery Place almost cited off the D. I vvas constreined to seek in other mens libraries and after I had vsed the book to cary it home againe VVhich vvith vvhat los of time yt vvas may easely be estemed Ad hereunto the slacknes off the print For althovvgh yt had bene my singuler aduantage both for polishing and better ordering off thinges to haue put nothing vnder the pres before the vvhole book had bene finished yet beginning to print after I had made an end off one treatise and begon an other yt vvas notvvithstanding scarce able to ouertake me Amongest the causes vvhy I set forth one part before the vvhole vvas ended one ys for that this former part rose to a iust volume An other that if any thing haue escaped vvhich may be hurtfull vnto the trvvth I might being aduertised amend yt in the later part vvheroff I desire the Godly reader vvith as conuenient speed as he can to gyue me vnderstanding The
treatise off the apparel I haue passed by the causes vvherof assigned by me if they shall not be approued by those to vvhose iudgemeÌ„t I submit my selfe vpon significatioÌ„ off their minde in that behalf I vvill resume yt again in that place vvhere I shall handle the conuenience and inconuenience off the ceremonies off the church vnto vvhich place I vvish I had reserued the most part off that Tractat vvhich in my book ys the first The learned reader I desire that vvhere â— confute some thinges vnvvorthy in his iudgement to be mentioned he vvould gyue that to those that are not so vvel aduaunced Althovvgh I confes that off a nomber off them the consultation vvhether any vvere so rude as not to perceiue them vvithovvt helpe stood me in more then the confutation The reader that vnvvillingly readeth the controuersies betvvene those off the same profession in doctrine I trust shall not lose his trauail if he desire to be confirmed against the errors off the papistes the same in many places vvith the Ansvverers Off all I desire both learned and others that they vvould support my vveaknes vvheresoeuer and in vvhat sort so euer yt shall appear seing I trust it shall be manifest vnto them that in a good cause I haue laboured also to kepe a good conscience For better vnderstanding of the book after yovv are a litle entred yovv shall vvhere I remembred yt finde the doctor althovvgh not alvvaies in so many vvordes â–ª yet in the same sense in a smaller letter the testimonies and that alledged out off my former book and admonition being in a greater Sometimes throvvgh his to muche fondnes and repetition I put onely a vvord or tvvo to gyue the reader to vnderstand that I vvander not vvithovvt an aduersary referring him for further knovvledge vnto his ovvn book vvhen I refer yovv for any place ether of my former or els off both his a fevv excepted in the beginning I folovv his later book vvhere all these bookes be Of faultes escaped in the printing some are suche as ether ouerthrovv the vvhole sense corrupt yt or that othervvise may greatly hinder yovv VVhich I haue set apart from the rest desiring yovv to vouchsafe to correct them especially vvith your pen considering that yt is but a small labor to yovv in one book vvhich vvould haue bene infinite to me in all Fare vvel gentle reader and if thovv take any profit off my labors remember me in thy praiers vnto the lord for his assistance in the rest off my life and namely for that vvhich remaineth of ansvver vnto the D. book The faultes most necessary to be corrected Page 15. lin 8. put owt priestes and. and l. 14. put owt either priestes or pag. 31. lin 26. read is not asword pag. 57. lin 11. read with the contrary of that sentence pag. 66. lin 22. put owt against pag. 84. stat R flat pag 152. lin 9. put owt suche pag. 164. lin â–ª 26. yet R. yea pag. 170. lin 31. for the second inuisible R. visible pag. 173. lin 31 R. faithfulnes pag. 191. lin 23. in the margent R. 2. Coun. pag. 211. li. 8. put owt they pag. 252. lin 26. for decree R. they decreed pag. 261 lin 20. pastors R. people pa 266. lin 32. R. for if the. pa. 273. lin 34. in certein copies For those alledged Titus to proue Timothy and read those alledged to proue that Timothy and Titus did pag. 296. lin 26. R. Euangelistes and pastors pag. 368. li. 16. giftes R. vices pag. 390. li. 16 put owt but. pag. 402. lin 16. R. inconuenient pag. 440 lin 5. this R. there is pag. 441. li. 9. put for as where as and lin 12. R. and in not pag. 443. lin 2. obteined R. obserued pa. 499. lin 22 after the word before ad yt appointeth pag. 516. lin 19. for bishops R. elders pag. 553. li. 2. put out belike suche as ours Other faultes vvhich may somevvhat stay the Reader Page 9. line 6. put owt and pag. 11. li. 15. saith R. faith page 18. li. 35. one read owne page 19 li. 25 R procedeth page 21. li. 19. R. Vincentius page 23. li. 6. they R. there page 31. li. 2. R. spake page 33. in the margent put owt Ierome Tom. 3. praeface in Iob. page 37. li. 11. R. bouldnes page 41. li. 5. R. suspition page 42. li. 21. R. not to come page 46. in the margent R. implicita pa. 46. li. 30. R. members page 49. l. 14. for R. of page 50. li 21. R. magnifie pa. 51. li. 11. there al R the real page 52. li. 29. put owt the page 53 li. 9. R. that a man li. 11. R. and not onely page 55. li. 36. R â–ª herewith page 61. li. 25. diuis 7. R. 5 page 64. li. 28. R not note pag. 77. li. 18. R. Ancyran li. 21. put owt is page 94. li. 16. R. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 page 96. li. 31. R. remnantes page 106. li. 4. R. snatcher page 108. li. 35. this R. thus page 112. li. 18. R. tel me now page 116. li. 19. put owt yet page 131. li. 26. R. poore page 133. li 26. R self pa. 145 li. 8. R. answerer li. 8. be R. he page 146. li. 24. R. soundnes of doctrine page 148. l. 36. R. not page 151. li. 6. R. gift l. 29. R. abilitie page 194. l. 8. put owt the figure of twelue page 211. li. 23. M. R maister page 225. li. 20. R. I haue page 233. li. 3. if R. yt page 234 li. 35. in the magent R. â—75 page 238. li. 13. R. was then page 247. li. 8 R. the whole page 265. li. 19. R. fauouring page 259. li. 24. R. yow might page 281. li. 15 put owt and page 293 li. 20. R ministery page 302. li. 11. R title page 316. li. 13. he R. be li. 7. R. moste page 334. li. 37. R. with page 337. li. 18. R. yt is in an page 341. li. 29. be R. he page 351. li. 35. R. are in the li. 36 are R. of page 364 li 30 R seauen yeare page 373. l 21. R. reading li. 28. R. dealing page 380. li 24 in the margent R. 572. page 394. li. 13 yt R. yet page 405. li. 29. R. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 page 457 li 36 for the second there R. his page 460. li. 32 R. in that page 478. li 20. R. for him page 485. li. 12. R. weigh page 492 li. 1. put owt which page 494. li. 18. R. title page 504. li. 24. R. chew wordes page 503. li. 12. 17 29. 33. R Sozomene page 508 â–ª li. 29. R. fondly page 534 li. 29. R. had said page 536. li. 1. R. doen page 562. li. 34 R. peece page 565. li. 29 their R. other li. 33. for other R. their page 566. l. 16 R. with page 570. li. 9. in the margent R. aduersus page 581. li. 30 R. scambling page 585. li 8 is R as The ansvver vnto the doctors praeface entitled to
the godly reader TO all here in controuersie coÌ„sidering they are barely said without proof yf they be affirmations one yea yf they be denials one nae shall be enowgh seing they are all handled at large in this book Except that off ceremonies vsed in popery wheroff how vntrwly he speaketh when he saith that the reiecting off them standeth vpon this that we may not vse in any wise or in any consideration reteined in the church any thing that hath bene abused vnder the Pope both hath manifestly in my former book and further shall God willing in the later part off my reply appear Answer to his two Tables wheroff the first is intitled off daungerous pointes off doctrine the other off vntrwthes and falsified autorities conteined in my reply AFter I had ended my book and was entred vpon the preface I receiued a treatise called An examination off M. Doctor VVhitgiftes censures conteined in tvvo Tables set before his book intituled the defence of the ansvver to the admoni Wherof as I was glad for the truthes safe which shall receiue strenght by yt so I was sory that I receiued yt no sooner for that it might both haue cased me off muche labor and haue serued me for a good direction in those places which might seem to require a larger defence then the shortnes yt foloweth would receiue And as those off the churche which acknowledg this trwth so I especially for whose support I take yt was written hartely thanck the autor and desire the reader to vse yt for a supply where my answer doeth not satisfy him Whiche answers off myne so far as I haue hetherto gone he shall finde after this sort In the firste Table The first Article becawse yt was not lincked with any particuler cause in controuersie I pourposed to answer in this place but now I will rest in the answer which is made The 2. is answered page xlij line 33. The 3. is answered page xlv line 17. The 4 page liij li. 20. The 5. page lxxxix li. 14. The 6. page xcv l. 29. The 7. page ccxlij li. 21. For the 8. I refer my self to the foresaid treatise especially considering that I haue passed by that whole Tractate The 9. is answered page ccccxlviij lin 6. The 14. page ccclj li. 28. The 15. page ccclxxiij li. 37. In the second Table The first is answered page viij li. 22. The 2. page ix li. 26. The 3. page lxij li. 21. The 4. page lxxxij lin 37. The 5. page xcj. li. 4. The 6. page clx ij l. 29. The 7. page cxcj li 1. In the 8. that part touching subtil suppression is answered page cclij li. 12 the other lieth vpon Illiricus whom I named the autor off that report yf yt be not in the Code The 9. is answered page cclv li. 16. The 10. page cclvj li. 27. The 11. page cclxxvj li. 27. The 12. and 17. page cclxxvij li. 17. The 13. page cclxxx li. 12. The 14. page cclxxxj li. 4. The 15. page cclxxxij li. 7. The 16. page ccc li. 33. The 18 pa. cclxâ—x li. 34. To the 19. and 20. I answer as to the 8. off the first table The 22. is answered page cccclxxxj li. 18. The 22. ccccxxxvj li. 12. The 23. page ccccxciij li. 33. The 24. page diiij li. 1. The 25. pa. dxij li 28. The 26. page dxxxiiij li. 11. The 27. dlxx li. 15. The 28. page dcxxv li. 26. The 29. page dcxxvj li. 36. The 30. page dcxv li. 4. The 31. page dcxxvij li. 29. The 32. is answered before in the Epistle The 33. page dcxlj li. 13. The 34. page dcxliij li. 33. The 35. page dcxlv li. 1. The 36. page dxxiij li. 5. The 37. page dcliiij li. 1. The rest in both the tables remain to be answered in the second part off my reply The replye vnto the answer pag. j. c. FOr the foure fyrst sectyons being either false accusations bare repetitions off my wordes or profes off thinges which I haue set downe and confesse I will not answer His fifte section answerethe not any thinge to diuers reasons which I haue set downe to proue that this cause can not be charged with disorder whose whole worke is that nothing be donne owte off place owte off tyme besides the boundes off euerie one His seuerall callinge in the 6. sectyon 4. pag. he falling to railing doothe gwilfully passe by the reason which I haue alledged why this doctine which we mainteine can not be thowght enemy vnto princes seing yt was a freende to princes when princes where enemies vnto it For him selfe can not denie but the gouernement by elders the choise off the ministers by the churche the moste off those thinges which he especially supposeth to haue warre with the ciuile magistrate and are in controuersie betweene vs were in the tymes off the Apostells when they being troden vnder feete off the ciuile Magistrate did neuer lifte vpp their heele againste his power And where he saithe it is no plaine dealing to drawe that to this cause which is trewly spoken off the gospell he needed not to haue charged vs with wante of plaine dealing seing we offer to shew the discipline to be a parte off the gospell and therfore to haue a comon cause so that in the repulse of the discipline the gospell receiueth a checke That the discipline off the church is not in the nomber of those thinges which are varyed is disputed in the second tractate and in her seueral partes thorowe out the whole booke That the distinction off the common welthe and the churche hathe bene and owght to be kepte of al men which haue spokeÌ„ or written with any Iudgement shall be shewed in the 20. Tractate and therfore althowghe the answerer doo a 100. tymes repeete this thinge in bare affirmacions yet the reader shall once for all looke for the answer off thes thinges in those places In his 8. section page 1. he speaketh off the authoritie off the magistrate vppon no occasion to no purpose with greate wordes with no proofe Then as thowghe I had written in vnknowne figures as the priestes of Aegypte he complaineth of my obscuritie and that he can not vnderstande what I meane wheras I coulde hardely haue vsed greater light of speache if I had bente my selfe therunto For I proue the singuler benefite that the discipline bringeth to the comon welthe for that by the Ecclesiasticall censures off admonition reprehension suspension c. the lesser faultes off lying vncomely iesting and cholericke speaking being met with all the passage is stopped againste the greater faultes off thefte adultery and murder Wherin obserue his vnfaithfull dealing which feining him selfe not to vnderstande that which my wordes doo fullie sounde doothe notwithstanding forge thinges off me wheroff there is not the smallest ynkling For here vppon he asketh whether I thinke not the punishemet of thefte and murther sharpe enowghe with diuers other which folow vnto all
which sylence yff they were handled as they deserue were the fittest answer Howbeyt to shut vpp the mouthe off them which seeke occasion I answer that as the Ecclesiasticall censures shut not owte the ciuill punishementes nor hinder not in any parte their course so the ciuill punishementes can not displace the churche censures considering that as the one is occupied in the punishement off the bodie so the other is conuersant in the instructing off the conscience and we haue a manifeste example off the ioyning off them together in one and the same action in the scripture Where yt was ordeined that he that came not at the daie appointed should be punished by the losse off goodes which was meere ciuill and by separation from the congregation whiche was altogether Ecclesiasticall howbeit it shal be sufficient here to shewe that where as the answerer shoulde haue disputed againste this that the Ecclesiasticall censures together with the ciuille punishementes haue more force to resiste synne then the ciuill punishementes onely not being able to answer to the reason as thoughe his nose blead turnethe a syde and looking another way so reasonethe as if the questiō were whether the ciuill punishement were off greater strenght to holde owte sinne then the Ecclesiasticall which neither is nor shall be the question at this time yt is sufficient that they be bothe necessarie And whereas he asketh whether the magistrate hathe not power to correcte lying vncomely iesting cholericke speaking off which onely question he might seeme to haue some colour of occasion giuen by my wordes I answer that in saying that the magistrate doothe not cōmonly punishe them I neither saye that either he maie not or he will not as he doothe vntrewlie surmise but I had regarde vnto the estate bothe of our comon welthe and of all other which I knowe this daie where there are for the moste parte in thes cases no courtes or iudgemente seates which doo once take knowledge off thes causes it being also a common principell thar the lavve doothe not take care of smal things as it is alledged in one of the lawe cases which is reported in Kinge Henry the eight his yeares And in respecte that suche like matters are onely corrected by thes censures off the churche they are called off certeine consistorie matters And therfore I refuse not onelie the iudgement off the indifferent but off the moste enemy reader which hathe but a sparcke off equitie in him How vntrew it is that either we wringe the sword by thes wordes owte off the magistrates hande or suspende the drawing off yt in anie respecte vppon the pleasure off the eldershipp off the churche In the 9. section pag. 6. as thowghe the imperfection off the churche were not confessed off our partes he setteth him selfe to proue that men commit faultes as longe as they be in this liffe Secondly to proue that the churche florisheth with vs he alledgeth that the common wealthe florisheth wherunto forsomiche as it is with owt the compas off this treatise to medle with the recitall off the breaches off the common welthe and there are other proofes enowghe to conuince the deformities off the churche I will make no answer sauing that he muste vnderstande that in supposing diuers crackes in the common wealthe we are so farre from staining the carefull watche and painefulnes off the godlie magistrate as he surmiseth that his faithfull and godlie trauailes are rather herebie commended who in so sore a sicknes and amonges so manie partely vnfaithefull and partely vnskillfull physicions hathe hetherto kept liffe in yt In the 10. section pag. 6 where he saithe that the threatening off the Prophethe appertaineth to other realmes whiche refuse ād persequute the gospell and can not belonge vnto ours the discipline being as it is propounded and offred to be proued a parte off the gospell muste needes arme the lorde againste the refusers and so miche the more as it coming into the churche as into her home is therfore more dangerouslie reiected And where the answerer in wordes calleth for fruicte off the gospell In this enemitie which he hathe with the discipline off the churche pulling downe the hedge wherwith the lordes orchyarde shoulde be false from the inuasiō of hurtefull beastes he is as freendlie to the fruictes of the gospell as the Easte winde is to the fruites of the earthe For the Discipline off the churche being one off the moste excellentest meanes that the lorde hathe ordeined to cause the doctrine of the gospell to fructifie he is founde a nourice of that barennes againste which he exhorteth In the 11. section pag. 7. he hathe broken his bridell againe and in leuing the matter in hande he run̄eth to his olde accusations wherunto I haue not to answer That there ys no heade off the churche but onely Christ shall be shewed in the treatise off the Archebishopp into whiche question this falleth And leste nothing shoulde be saide for answer to that which I had set downe the glosse hathe here charged me that I make more off the gouernement then off the gospell whiche is a manifeste vntrewthe for I speake of the discipline as off a parte off the gospell and therfore neither vnder nor aboue the Gospell but the Gospell But the reason which he addeth is to be noted for saith he he likeneth the estate off the churche to the wandring in the wildernes Firste off all iff I did liken the estate off our churche now destitute off the discipline vnto the estate off the churche whiche was in the wildernes there is wherwithe that similitude is supported For as diuers lawes were giuen vnto the Iewes in Mounte Synay the practise wheroff they coulde not haue vntill they came into the lande off Canaan euen so the doctrine off the Gospell cannot haue the full practise vnles yt haue therunto ioyned the discipline But to cut off all occasion off cauilling iff I had not fallen vpon them that seeke yt I expressed wherin the bringīg in of the discipline shoulde haue bene like the cōduction of the people into Canaan not in that yt is ether better or not so good as the doctrine off the gospell but in this that as then the people had their full deliuerance when they came into that lande so we by this addition off Discipline to the doctrine off the gospell together with a whole and entier deliuerance owte off the thraldome off the popishe Aegyte might haue greater fredome in the citie off God whiche is his churche The other Cauill is off the same sorte For as I propounded the vpright kinges to be folowed in their whole and full reformacions so those which halted I set before to the intente they should be avoyded in that their reformaciōs were not throwghe and therfore where a reformacion is not full althowghe the wante be not in the same poincte in whiche they were behinde yet therin yt resembleth thē that as they so this is vnperfecte
abowt to make men beleue that I haue some thinge that I would not haue men vnderstand And althoughe he confesse he vnderstand it not yet he reprehendeth it and so it commeth to him which S. Iude chargethe the false teachers withe in his tyme that he speaketh euill off that he knoweth not He asketh here for examples and they stick still in his throate vnswalowed and vndigested whiche the admonition gaue him when he hathe ouercome those then let him aske for more examples And wheras he ascribethe as a great absurditie to vs that we make the order off chusinge the minister before the eldershipp and gouernment be established somewhat diuerse from that which is before putting this florishe vppon it that we allowe off all thinges owt off order thoughe against our owne order so it be against common order I will not goo abowte to confute that here or to shew what good cause there is off this diuersitie it being sufficiently declared in that booke whiche togither withe the right forme off gouernment commaunded owt off the worde off god notethe the disorders off our churche onelie I will aske M. D. whether the consecration as it is called off the Archbishops and Bishopps at the first entrie off the Queenes maiestie vvas the same altogither vvithe that vvhiche hathe bene sithens And iff there were a difference betwene that and this then in this great desire off his to stricke he care not how nor after What sorte his strooke is fallen vppon him selffe and vpon those whom he vndertaketh to defend That the wordes off the admonition haue not that sense which is here ascribed vnto yt I haue shewed in the proper place neither will I touche it here althoughe the A. set it twentie tymes before me Yff he haue any thing to saye against that whiche I haue said there it shall be considered Althoughe here the D. was taken eueÌ„ in the verie acte of false coyninge yet he shameth not to denie yt and withe that bloudnes and foreheade that he is readie also to accuse him that taketh him withe the manner He biddeth me peruse more diligentlie the wordes off M. Bullingar I haue perused them and set them downe first in latin and then in Englishe and iff I haue not turned them truelye shew wherin I haue faulted and iff they be truelie turned then I demaunde againe where these wordes be founde in any of those leaues of Bullinger whiche yow quote That they could not teache truelie because they had great liuinges Yow saye they be word for word there shew but the same sense or meaninge that is to saye that this off M. Bullingers that the Anabaptistes said they could not teache the truthe vvhiche had any liuinge is all one withe that whiche yow haue set downe that they can not teache the truthe which haue great liuinges And iff yow can not shew it your falsification remaineth increased withe the open facing of an vntruthe In deede if yow can put owt all men eyes aÌ„d take away froÌ„ vs our senses and all light off grammer and off the knowledge off signification and proprietie off wordes it will not be impossible for yow withe suche confident speaches as yow vse to make vs beleue that all is turned vpside downe and that the earth hangeth ouer our heades and the heauens are vnderneath our feete but yow deceiue your selffe if yow thincke that yovve can beare downe the truthe so or that yow can hide falshoode by adding another vnto yt wherby it is made bigger and more easie to be sene then before The place added owt off M. Zuinglius Ecclesiastes maketh nothing to the saluinge off your falshoode and how farre our men as it pleasethe yow to call them are farre from all suche sayinges I haue before declared Yff yow shew as yow saye that I do giue to litle vnto the magistrate I will confesse my faulte and confesse my felse detter vnto yow for yt As for the cleanelines off my termes which I vse they are not so foule as the thinges wherunto they are applied and the prophet Malachy and S. Paule vsed them in honester matters then these are so that iff the phrase off the Apostles and Prophetes be manerly enoughe there is lesse godlinesse in yow which in me houe thus accused them off inciuilitie Vnto the nexte section pag. 40. I answere not To the 44. sect pag. 41. I graunt the corruptions off the churche of England to be suche that man in absteininge from the pollutions theroff owght not so seuer him selfe from those open assemblies wherein the eternall worde off the Lorde God is preached and the Sacramentes administred althoughe not in that puritie which they owght to be But I saye againe that the name off conuenticles is to light and conteÌ„ptuous for those meetiÌ„ges For here in is to be coÌ„sidered for what cause they departed Which was not for the mis likinge off any thinge which Christ ordeyned but throughe the mislike off that which Antechrist had browght in not as the Anabaptistes did and the D. surmiseth they did for that they iudged them selues pure and others vnpure but that they feared that their presence where suche corruptions were should be allowance or confirmation off them not so muche forthe hatred off the estate off the churche off England as forthe loue that they had to a better nor so muche for the hatred off the Ministers whiche were vniustly set ouer them as for the loue off those which were vnlawfullie by the Bishoppes taken from them Thedorete declareth how the Catholikes which mainteined the faithe of the Nicenc councell throughe affectioÌ„ to their teachers deuided and seuered them selues into seuerall coÌ„paines will the. A. faie that all their meetinges were conuenticles iff he do he speakethe farre otherwise off them then Theodorete and yet that diuision continued 86. yeares And iff this be off no authoritie whith yow yet I would gladlie vnderstande what yow vvill answere to the sentence off M. Caluin which yow haue alleadged your selffe pag. â—1 where he saithe This honor is meete to be giueÌ„ to the vvorde off god and to the Sacramentes that vvhersoeuer vve see the vvorde off God truelie preached and the Sacraments vvithovvt superstition Ministred there vve maye conclude vvithovvt all controuersie the church to be Iff this meeting withe some disorder be the church off god how is it a conuenticle Besides that it ought to haue bene considered off yow whether they continued in that diuision and whether being taught and shewed their error they did obstinatelie perseuer according to whiche circunstance that off Augustine owght to be expounded for not euerie one which departethe for any cause whatsoeuer from that vvhiche is the churche off God by and by is to be accoumpted no membre of the churche For seing that heresie is more heynous then a scisme and yet heresie dothe not cut a man from the churche onlesse he remaine obstinate muche lesse can a scisme cause forthwith
at large Vnto the fowre nexte sections I answer nothing sauing that where in the seconde secâ— pa. 5â— he saith that master Caluin in his booke against the Anabaptistes affirmethe that the churche as towching the external pollicie can not be perfecte I doo assure my selffe that as in other places so heere he hathe vntrewly saide off Maister Caluin And yt cannot bâ— vnknowne but in Moses and the Apostlâ—â— times ther was a perfecte patruÌ„ of the owtwarde gouernernment off the churches bothe giuen off the lorde and receiued off the churches neither can there be any parte of the owtwarde gouernement off the churche assigned by the answerer which draweth any suche impossibilitie withe yt as he imagineth And iff he saye that ther were faultes committed againste those perfecte patrones that is not to the purpose For the faultes off particular persons doo no more ouerthrowe the perfection off the gouernment whiche was receiued then the faultes off the officers in our churche againste the lawes theroff are to be imputed vnto the lawes them selues wherby that gouernment standeth And as for the examples off the churches off Corinthe and Galatia whiche he alledgeth they rather make against him For that disorder whiche the Apostle chargeth them withe being a slyding backe and falling awaye from that estate wherin they were firste off all set by the Apostell argueth that there was a time when the contrarie off those disorders had place in their churches In the nexte section he alledgeth diuers examples to proue that enemies one withe another conspire against the trewthe whiche no man do which and where I shewed that the churches friÌ„des may doo some thiÌ„ges which some of the churches enemies doo against him whiche in that the admonitors doo certaine thinges with the Papiste and Anabaptistes woulde giue to vnderstande that they are conspired with theÌ„ he answerethe that the admonitors conspire withe the enemies off the churche in thinges whiche are againste the churche which is a manifest begging off that whiche is in controuersie Towching that which I sayde he hathe tawght that there is no commaundement in the scripture to put heretikes to deathe althowghe he denie that euer he did so yet beside that he mainteineth the same in the seconde treatise where he leaueth yt in the libertie off the magistrate whether he will doo yt or no and reiecteth all the lawes off God prouided in that behalfe as Iewis he there be moo witnesses off this then his bare deniall is hable to beare downe to whose knowledge I wil so reporte me in this behalfe that if they confirme not the same I refuse not to beare the blame off that reporte where he saieth there is no cause that he shoulde be better thought of emonge the papistes which teache and practise the contrarie althoughe the Papistes abuse this doctrine to the horrible murther off the church yet the doctrine is the doctrine off god and not the Papistes and yow by staying the course off yt nourishe them to the daye off slawghter and shedding off the bloude off the sainctes off god vvhich is their feaste and vvhiche they so greatly delight in and longe after In althat which foloweth vnto the first tractate vvhich beginneeth page 62. there is nothing worthe the answere And as for that whole tractate because yt perteineth to the question off lordeshipp and dominion off the Archebishopps ouer the bishops and off the Bishopps ouer the reste off the Ministers yt shall be referred to the beginning off the 8. Tractate where the answerer shall receiue his replie What authoritie the churche hathe in making off orders Chapter 1. pag. 77. THe playster vvherwithe the answerer woulde heale his vnskilfulnes in the expounding off tollerating in the churche by these wordes placing in the churche will not cleane For to let pas the meanig off the admonition whiche he shoulde haue shewed iff he mainteine his answer by yt and not as he doothe contrary to all lawe of disputation bid me proue that their meaning was not so as he supposeth I saie to let that pas yt appeareth by bis plaine vvordes that this exposition was not framed in regarde off the meaning off the admonition but for that he knew not what difference there was betwene placinge in the churche and tollerating in the churche For himselffe coÌ„fesseth that this is the principall grounde of their booke that those thinges onely shoulde be placed in the churche whiche the lorde himself in his worde comÌ„aundethe and ascribing this iudgemeÌ„t vnto them he afterwarde expoundeth that to be asmuche as if they shoulde haue saide that nothing shulde be tolerated c. yff this be their principall grounde that nothing be placed c as the A. confessethe and placing in the churche is not the same that tollerating in the churche as he doothe also confesse yt must folowe that the principall grounde off the admonition was not as he saithe that nothing shoulde be tollerated in the churche not commaunded by the worde And his wordes doo discharge the admonition off any suche assertion For in that he saithe that their meaning was so farr as he coulde gather that nothing shoulde be placed c. yt is manifeste that in saying nowe that they mente that nothinge shoulde be tolerated c. he chargeth them farther then he was then hable to gather off their booke Afterwarde he chargethe me withe an vnaduised and a popishe assertion for that I say that many thinges are commaunded in the scripture vvhich are not expressed in yt He neded not to haue trauailed far to haue seene how far I am from poperie in in this pointe iff he woulde haue but considered the wordes which folowe in the same diuision that god hathe set before vs in his vvorde a perfect patrone off his churche But I was at leaste ouerseene in this kind off speache Alas iff he woulde vnderstande his grammer and acknowledge that which simple scholers off the gramÌ„er schoole doo well knowe that their is difference betweene expressed and conteined betweene expressed and included betweene expressed and implied betweene expressed and gathered He woulde neuer haue troubled the reader with suche folies And as for that which I set downe I did yt vppon Good groundes For who is there which knoweth not that thes thinges that there is one essence and three persons in the godheade that there is in our Sauiour Christe one parson and two natures are not expressed but onely conteined in the worde off God And iff proofe must be had off thinges which is to greate shame for one that cariethe the title off a diuine to be ignorant off let the answerer know that lerned diuines speake afte this sorte Their wordes be thes Off the father of the Sonne and holy ghoste there is one nature one essence and thre persons In Christ our lorde there be tvvo natures and one person and many other thinges vvhich the catholike churche doothe receiue rather layde oute by the interpretation
othe made with theÌ„ put to deathe And vnles this be admitted we shall be compelled to condemne the spies which entred into league with Rachab the Harlot and SalomoÌ„ which receiued the Amorytes that voluntaryly yelded theÌ„ selues vnto his obedience and withall vnto the obedience off the lorde as it maie appeare in the bookes off Esra and Nehemias where their posteritie which are there called the sonnes off the seruantes of Salomon hauing of olde time grow ne into one bodie off the churche off god withe the children of Israel ioyne themâ—elues with theÌ„ in the restoring of the temple Wheruppon the A. may vnderstande that the Scripture reasonethe negatiuely againste the Israelites in a thinge wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrarie Moreouer we reade that when Dauid had taken this counsell to builde a temple vnto the lorde albeit the lorde had reuealed before in his worde that there shoulde be suche a standing place where the arke off the couenante and the seruice off god shoulde haue a certeine abydinge and albeit there was no worde off god which forbad Dauid to builde the temple yet the lorde with commendation off his good affection and zeale he had to the aduancement off his glorie concludeth againste Dauid his resolution to builde the temple with this reason namelie that he had giuen no commaundement off this who shoulde builde yt Where he woulde grounde this answer vpon the wordes off Zuinglius yt is manifest that Zuinglius reproueth the Anabaptistes not for reasoning negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture but that they reasoned negatiuely off an acte or an example And there is great difference betwene them that saye it is no conteined or it can not be concluded off any place in the scripture therefore yt is vnlawfull and betweene the Anabaptistes which reason that therefore the baptisme off children is vnlawfull because it is not founde in the Scriptures that the Apostles did babtize any children Wheras iff they had reasoned thus that the baptisme off yonge children was vnlawfull forasmuche as yt was not commaunded in the scriptures althowghe the grounde off their reason had bene false yet their conclusion had bene faste and sure And therfore iff the answerer wolde haue delte trewly he shoulde not haue fathered this answer of Zuinglius whiche hathe no suche thinge but off the Papistes whose proper defense this is againste those whiche manifie the sufficiencie of the worde off God as that whiche giueth men addresse vnto all thinges whiche are to be doone Maister Harding reprochethe the Bishopp off Salusbery with this kinde off reasoning whiche the answerer obiectethe againste vs so often vnto whom the Bishopp answereth The Atgument Maister Hearding meanethe and not very plainely vttereth is the argumente off authoritie negatiuely vvhich is taken to be goode vvhen soeuer proufe is taken off godds vvorde and is vsed not onely by vs but also by many of the catholike fathers And there alledgeth how Saint Paul in the 3. Gal. dispureth negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture for that the Apostel vppon the wordes off Moses in thy seede and not seades concludeth that our sauiour Christe was vnderstanded likewise he shewe the how Origine reasoneth after the same sorte And a litle after sheweth the reason why the argumente off authoritie off of the scripture negatiuelie is good namely for that the worde off God is perfecte In another place vnto Maister Harding casting him in the teethe with the negatiue Argumentes he alledgeth places owte of Ireneus Chrisostome Loo which reasoned negatiuely of the authoritie of the scripture The places which he alledgeth be very full and plaine in generalitie withowt any suche restraincte as the A. imagineth as they are there to be seene Wheras he saithe that the reason that God coulde giue a perfecte patrone off the churche therfore he hathe so doone doothe no more folow then in there all presence off the Sacrament he doothe but trifle withe his reader For I reason not off the bare power off God but haue ioyned his will with his power For my wordes be that the Lorde determining to set before our eyes a perfecte forme off his churche is bothe hable to doo yt and hathe doone yt Where yt is euidente vnto all men that I grounde my reason not onely off the habilitie off the lorde but vpon his determination not onely off that which he coulde doo but off that he hathe doone Diuision 2. pag. 79. VNto that wherin he was towched for his vnskilfulnes in diuiding in that bothe matters off gouernement and matters of faithe which he deuideth and by diuiding opposethe meete so frendlie together in the gouernement of the Pope he answerthe not And yet hauing nothing to answer he findeth him selfe the talke of a whole sheete of paper For first off all how ridiculous ys it that he saithe he did not put a case but an example Then whether perteines it that he settethe doune what the Papistes saye off the pope what the pope doothe himselffe That also whiche he affirmethe in so good earnest that no gouernement owght to be receiued direcly againste the worde off God that he repeatethe and repeateth againe his negatiue argument of the popes supremacie are they not all strey spreaches fraied owt of ther wittes carying not the weight of a fether to the profe off any thinge in controuersie hauing no knot either with the cause or one of them with another Likewise the distinctions off Ceremonies and gouernement off substantiall and accidentall of externall and spirituall are altogether vnprofitable brought to auoide his apparant ignorance in diuiding Likewise his dalying in his questions what gouernement I meane which is apparant in the discours off all our bookes off boothe sydes also his groping at none dayes by questions what it mente by matters necessarie to saluation which is expressed off me in the very nexte diusioÌ„ and againe in the thirde chap. 2 diuision Afterwarde when he setteth him selffe to proue that there is no one finde off gouernement certaine and vnuariable in the churche let yt be obserued how loosely aÌ„d childishelie he doothe yt For beside the firste reason which is a begging of that whiche is in questioÌ„ and the later reason drawne of the authoritie of maister Gwalier wherof he can haue no aduantage vnles with master Gwalter he will affirme that excommunication is not necessary nor yet conuenient vnder a Christien magistrate all the reste of his authorities drawne owte of M. Caluine the heluetian confession Bullinger are quite beside the cause For they are to proue that there may be a churche withowte excommunication As thowghe the question were what thinges the churche of those whiche be prescribed by the worde off God may wante aÌ„d yet be the churche of god and not what thinges yt owght to haue by the prescripte of the worde off god Or as thowghe the question were how sicke the churche might be and yet liue how meimed
the whole churche is for that time of the assemblie publike so yt may be well said that the noÌ„ber which meete in that place which is so apointed by the churche to heare the worde off God how small so euer yt be can not hinder the publykenes off that assemblie The places quoted in the margente to proue priuate celebrating off the Sacramentes are handled in another place That which is alledged owte of an article of the Suche churche that thinges othervvise indifferent doo after lavvfull commaundement after a sorte chaunge theyr nature we willinglie subscribe vnto howbeit withe any thinge which is here in coÌ„trouersie it hathe no knot at all but is a wandring sentence which hathe no fellow For yt is not debated here what force off authoritie the thinges haue whiche the churche ordeineth but the questioÌ„ is altogether what are the thinges whiche fall into the churches order The nexte diuision wherin he requireth answer vnto the place off the Corinthes off doing all thinges decently and orderly ys answered in that I haue shewed that the churche being bounde to this commandement in making her Ceremonies is therbye tyed not onelye to place nothinge in the churche agaynste the commandement off God but is bounde euen according to the commaundement to frame her orders in indifferent thinges Wherin the answerer althowghe he oppugneth the groundes which I vsed for the proofe off yt doothe I suppose agree with me and therfore there was no cause he should haue required any answer Caput 2. Diuision 1. pag. 95. IF he would haue proued that which I denie he shoulde haue shewed that thes authorities affirmed that the churche in making lawes off thinges wheroff the scripture hathe not precisely determined neede not to haue respecte to the generall commaundements off the scripture before receiued but that he is not hable to doo with any approued sentence And albeit he hathe subscribed to this sentence before yet in the ende off this diuision he beginnethe to sâ—lyde into his former error saying that in matters not prescribed in the scripture he can not tel whether to resorte to knowe the vse and antiquitie of them but vnto councells stories and doctors As thowge the scripture were not the loode starre vnto the churche in her decrees towching suche thinges and as thowghe the firste churches vvhhich had not suche stories c. had not sufficient addresse in the light off the worde off God to make constitutions by I graunte the church by stories c. vnderstandeth of their antiquitie but the knowledge of their antiquitie maketh litle or nothing to know how profitable or conuenient for the churche they be vvhich being that onely vvhich is looked into in ther establishing is drawne from the scriptures and not from antiquitie Howbeit because he pretendith agreement in this that there be certeine thiÌ„ges lefte vnto the order of the church with this coÌ„ditioÌ„ that they be doone according to the generall coÌ„mandements off the Scripture we will houlde him by his former vvordes and will not suffer him to breake froÌ„ vs vnles he doo not onelie priuilie nibble and bite abowte but in manifest wordes eate vp his former saying Notwithstanding in the great plentie the A. hathe off places for the proofe off this which we denie not let yt be obserued what partly vnproper partly vngodly choise he hathe made The first sorte off Testimonies owt off the auncient writers and councells are off off those which are in controuersie as whether bishopps maie haue suffringanes whether there owght to be metropolitanes c. Wheroff althoughe he bringe no testimonie owte off his antors that they are in the churches power to order yet he settethe them downe as thowghe there were neuer question moued off them and as if he had gained them by stronge hande off reason The seconde sorte are off those thinges which beinge determined by the worde off God off or on are owte off the churches compas to take order in As is that which he reciteth owte of Iustine off the deacons carying the brede of the holy supper off the lorde to those which were not present at the action off the supper and that which he alledgeth owte of the councell of Neocesarea that no man should be minister before 30. yeare off his age Likewise that which he bringeth owte off the Amyran councell that a minister can not sâ—ll the churches rightes especially in that sense the councell meaneth which is for his owne priuate profit The first of these is coÌ„trarie to the institution and the laste being sacriledge are simply forbiddeÌ„ in the worde of god The Scripture also determining that a man off those giftes which be required off the Minister off the word maie and if nede require owght to be receiued vnto the ministery and shewing further that those giftes fall into yonger yeares then 3â— yt muste needes folow that the churche determining flatly that none shall be receiued to the ministery before those yeares shuttethe the doore off the ministerie vnto those to whom the worde off God settethe yt open And also that this Councell is altogether owte off place alledged considering that it determined not off this as off a thinge wheroff the Scripture had not giuen sentence but as off a thinge vnlawfull by the Scripture and for that purpose it alledgethe the example off our Sauiour Christe which preached not before he was 30. yeare oulde Thes thinges daungerously set downe off the An. as indifferent which are not I thought it necessary to giue the simple reader warning that the Answ measure wherwithe he meteth indifferent thinges is vnsealed Ther is a thirde sorte owte off Tertull. de corona militis â—d prax Basil de sancto Spiritu Wheroff beside that diuers off them were neuer conuenient some off them vnlawfull they are all suche as the authors doo not permit to the order of the churche but vnder a false clocke off tradition put the churches necke vnder a seruile yoke off them And wheras he would faine saue thes places owte off the fire by saying that althoughe some grew in time to superstitioÌ„ and that one of his autors gaue to myche vnto vnwritteÌ„ traditioÌ„s he doothe but burne his fingers the places he can not saue For yt behoueth him to shewe that certen thinges not determined in the word off God are in the churches power and thes places yff they proue any thinge proue that the churche is bounde off necessitie to certaine thinges wheroff there is no commaundement in the worde off God for the which cause they are alledged off the papistes from whom it is not vnlike but they were borowed But yet it appeareth that there were thinges in the churche not expressed in the worde I graunte and more then that thinges contrarie but by what right yt doothe not appeare And in deede iff the answerer had light vppon some weywarde aduersarye that woulde haue debated this question with him these places wolde haue giuen him greate
that yt is not our question which the A. dooth so shamefully affirme whether the scripture haue expressed all externall ceremonies c. In the next page vnto me shewing that the place off August to Casulanus is against hym for that where he would proue that certein thinges are in the churches power the wordes which he alledgeth say that the decrees of the forefathers and coustomes off the people off God are to be obserued tying the church to the decrees and coustomes off those which went before he answereth that August giueth a rule vnto priuate men and not vnto the church Wherein he condemneth him self off hauing alledged that sentence cleane beside the cause For it is manifest by the wordes immediatly goinge before that he alledged it to proue the autoritie off the church in thinges indifferent neither can yt in any other respect haue any bonde with that which he pretendeth to proue And nowe that yt is shewed howe vnfitly the place is alledged he shifteth his footing and in steade off a rule towchinge the church he maketh yt a rule for priuate men and in steade off shewing the libertie off the church he sheweth the bondage that a priuate man is tyed by Where I conclude against hym off that sentence off Augustine that we ought to followe the coustomes and orders off the Apostels and off the primatiue churches seing yt ys certein that they were our forefathers and the people off God and that we owght not to followe the Papistes which are neither the people off God nor our forefathers to the first off folowinge the Apostels he saith there were certeine thinges conuenient onely for their tymes which are not to be folowed Wherein onlesse he meane those thinges which are in controuersie yt is nothing to the pourpose and iff he meane them yt is a manifest begging off that which is in demaunde Vnto the seconde point off not taking the Papistes coustomes and decres he referreth me to other places Where notwithstanding he neuer answereth this argument off Augustin and so in pretence off a fitter place he hath taken a longer day Where he noteth me of ignorance in that I saide I could oppose Ignatius and Tertull vnto August and Ambrose towchinge the fast vppon the Lordes day saying that there is no difference betweene them th one part speaking off the Saturday the other off the Sonday I am contented to beare his charge off ignorance But is there any man so forsaken off all not learninge onely but common reason which dooth not vnderstand that thes propositions differ and fight amongest them selues yt ys a detestable thinge to fast on the Lordes day which is the Iudgement off Ignatius and Tertull and yt is lavvfull to fast on the Lordes day Which is the Iudgement off Augustine set downe off him selffe And when Ambrose speaking not onely off the Sabbothe off the Iewes but generally willeth that vvhatsoeuer the coustome off the church be in that behalffe off fasting yt should be folovved dooth he not manifestly ouerthrowe his saying which saith to fast on the Lordes day is to kill the Lorde And euen in the case off the fast off the Iewes Sabbothe which Casulanus demaundeth counsaill off yt appeareth there was great disagrrement betweene the aunciēt fathers consideringe that in the Canons which are attributed vnto the Apostles it was ordeined that if one were founde to faste on the Lordes day or on the Sabbothe one onely exepted being a clerke he should be deposed and being a layman separated from the supper off the Lorde If I haue off ignorance set the fathers together by the eares as he saith let vs see howe with his knoweledge he can part them and set them at one in this behalffe That the fastes which were kept in the tymes off Ambrose and Augustine and longe before and their allowance especially off the Lentenne fastes Were corrupte and prophanations off the true vse off fast yf neede were as I haue in part so yt might in more wordes easely be shewed That the counsaile giuè for the keeping of those superstitious fastes might haue place in a straunger and priuate mā which owght not to stand towardes a Citisen and hym that hath charge yt is apparent And yet bothe thes the Answerer would beare downe with wordes and nothing but wordes Where the answ saying that he knoweth nothing in the place off Augustine or Ambrose towching fasting which may not be obserued withowt iust offense may be taken either to speake of the places which I alledged thouching merite off fasting or the places which him selffe alledged I will rather esteme vntill I knowe the contrary that he ment off those which he browght him selffe then together with the slipp off standing daies off fast he should also fall flat by opinion off the merite in fasting And so I would haue the reader to take him that there be no offense taken at this place so doubtfully left Where he bringeth me in concluding that because the auncient fathers erred in some thinges therfore they saide true in none my wordes cary no suche sense But for so muche as they erred and euen in this matter off fast which was in hande they owght to haue no further credite then their authoritie is waranted by the word off God and good reason and that therfore the Answ which presseth their bare autoritie withowte any warde off the word of God or assistance of good reason ether browght of him selfe or fetched from them bringeth an intollerable tyrannie into the church of god This I gaue to vnderstand which because he durst not in plaine wordes gaine saie he hathe tourned my wordes vnto another sense Cap. 3. Diuision 2 pag. 103. Augustine saithe that the feast of Easter Pentecoste c. are the statutes off the Apostles and commended to the churches and addeth that they are not conteined in the scripture Whereuppon I concluded that there is some thinge by this reckening commanded off God to be obserued not conteined in the scripture and consequently that there is no sufficient doctrine conteined in the scripture whereby we may be saued To this the Doct. answereth that yt is a pretie and sound collection I haue in deed for shortnes sake trussed that into twoo or three propositions which to put in full and comptere argumentes required a greater nomber Howbeit the soundenes off the collection is apparant to all which will open their eies And because the Ans will yeald no obedience vnto the truthe vnlesse she taking him by the collar haue her handē vppon his throat the foundenes off the collection shall thus appeare vnto him What soeuer was decreed off the Apostles and commended vnto the churches to be obserued is necessarie but some thinges by Aug. and the D. not conteined in the word off God were decreed and commended by the Apostels vnto the posteritie of the churches therfore some thinges by Aug. and the D. not conteined in the word of God is necessarye to be
obserued The first proposition is manifest considering that the statutes off the Apostels are the statutes off Christ the seconde is Augustines allowed off the D. and iff bothe these be true then the third must needes be This being thus gathered that which I added that therupō yt folowed that there is no sufficient doctrine conteined in the scriptures is thus concluded That which doothe not conteine all the will off God necessarie for vs to doo conteineth no sufficiente doctrine vnto saluation but the scripture by Aug and the d. conteinethe not all the will off God necessary for vs to doo therfore the scripture by Aug. and the d conteineth no sufficient doctrine vnto saluation The first proposition is manifest in that S. Paul to deliuer him selffe from the gilte off bloude towards the Ephes alledgeth that he had taught them all the will off God the second foloweth off that which Aug. and the d. allowe for iff there be some thing commanded off the Apostells not conteined in the worde off God that being necessarie yt must folowe that some necessarie thing for vs to doo is not conteined in the worde And where the A. saithe that neither Aug. nor he say that any thinge not conteined in the scripture is so necessarie that it may not be altered vpon iust occasion by suche as haue autoritie he can not mocke the worlde after that sorte withe faste and loose at his pleasure For if they be statutes off the Apostels and commended vnto the churches what autoritie is there vppon earthe whiche can displace them which the apostels haue placed and iff it be madnes as he saith afterward owte off Augustin not to obserue them or once to reason off them how can they take order in them And this answer is ouerthrowne by the wordes off Augustin whiche folow immediatly But other things saith he vvhich are varied by regions as that some faste vpon the sabbothe daye some doo not c. are at libertie to bo obserued neither is there any better rule to a Christian man in thes then to do as the churche doothe vvhere he comethe Where it is manifest that he opposeth the tradition off the Apostels and ther statutes receiued by tradition vnto those thinges whiche are in the churches power to ordeine and to those wherin yt ys safe for vs to applie our selfes to the order off the churche They being therfore in this opposed the one beinge in the churches power the other are nor the one being of that sorte that off which side soeuer the churche determine off them a man may saflie obey the other muste needes be off that sorte that if the churche woulde otherwise ordeine of them then the Apostels that a man may not safely obey And in the nexte sentence the thinges which he opposethe those statutes off the Apostels vnto he calleth indifferent and therby giueth to vnderstande that he tooke them for vnindifferent and hitherto perteineth that he alledgeth owt off August in Zuinglius name and is found in his booke against the Donatistes where yt ys said that they are to be holden as giuen by Apostolicall autoritie Which is more then if he had said giuen by the Apostels considering that there are thinges giuen off the Apostels as counsailes and left at the churches order to chaunge vppon occasion as were the traditions which M. Caluin speaketh off but they were neuer left vnto the church with an Apostolical autoritie Which autoritie is off the higheste nature and proceding from the higheste court that can be And that this was Augustines meaning appeareth manifestly by the place which I alledged out of his booke againste the donatistes Where he saithe that all those thinges vvhich the churche houldeth generally are to be houlden as praeceptes off the Apostels althovvghe they be not vvriten wherunto he answereth nothing And by that place the folie off the answerer wherby he woulde tune Augustin by maister Caluins wreste is more plainly discouered For where he wolde haue vs thinke that August vnderstood those traditions onely which perteine to order and politie that may be varied and not vnto doctrine yt is manifest that Augustin in that place saithe that the Apostels gaue commaundement tovvching the not rebaptising off those vvhiche vvere baptized by Heretikes and that the custome of off the churche in not rebaptizing vvhich vvas obiected against Cyprian had the beginning off the Apostels tradition Nowe I would knowe off the answerer whether he dare saye that this iudgement off rebaptizing be off traditions which may be chaunged or whether there can be any iust cawse wherefore this may be altered And if he dare not saye this then let him confesse his faut and not seeke to make vp his breaches by sutche vntempered morter Where I saye that thereby there is a gate opened vnto the the Papistes to bring in vnder the colour off traditions all their beggery he answereth that the Papistes are rather confuted by this meanes considering that the Pope hath nether at all tymes nor in all places bene receiued Where to let pas that to helpe him selfe he addeth at all times which is not in Augustines rule he towcheth not the point off the cause For in that onely that it is saide that there be precepts off the Apostels vnto the church not cōteined in the word of God is pusshed at the strongest bulwarcke which the church hath to defend yt selfe against the Popishe beggerie and all other corruptions Which bullwarke is that whatsoeuer is commaunded of the Lorde vnto the church is conteined in the worde off god yff this be once shaken there is no sufficient resistance left vnto the church against this assaut For althoughe yt hath some great likelihood which hath bene generally and from the Apostels times receiued yet for somuche as yt is not vnpossible for the whole church to erre in some point and to haue taken vp or reteined off that which yt had before some thing not deliuered by the apostels it can be no sufficiēt bar to withstand the corruptions offred to be brought in by the Heretikes to saie that the church hath ether doon or not doon so and so sythēs the Apostels tymes And althoughe we might be assured that they are the precepts of the Apostels which haue bene so generally receyued yet the doore is not so close shut against corruptions as he pretendeth For this thing standing that there are cōmaundemēts giuen of the Apostels not cōteined in the word of god they may thrust in thinges which haue not had that generall and continuall obseruation For althowghe Aug. saie that they are the traditiōns of the Apostles which are generally receiued yet he dooth not saie that they onely are and the Heretikes whose corruptions should be repulsed in this respect that they haue not bene generally nor alwaies receiued might haue an easye replye that there is the same preiudice against certen off the commandementes off the Apostels committed to writing considering that
they haue nether generally nor continually bene receiued Where he alledgeth Zuinglius vsing a sentence off Augustine not muche vnlike to confirme childrens baptisme yt is to be noted that Zuinglins vsed not that sentence but in the confirmacion off a thing which hath certeine testimonie owt off the word off God as hath childrens baptisme whereit could not be dangerous and then yt is to be obserued that thereby is ouerthrowne his whole answer For Zuinglius taking that sentence off thinges which haue a necessarye obseruation in the church off God aÌ„d can not be chaunged putteth to flight his whole answer with the defense theroff which supposeth Augustine to haue gyuen this rule off thinges indifferent And therefore either the A. is abused in vnderstanding thes places off thinges indifferent or els Zuinglius in vsing this for the necessitie off childrens baptisme gaue his aduersaries great aduantage whilest they might haue answered with the D. that that authoritie off the Apostels is suche as the church vpon consideration may alter And where he alledgeth M. Caluin as one which had vsed that rule off Augustine I answer that yt is one thing to alowe the sentence off a writer and another thing to take some aduantage off it when his aduersarie presseth hym with his authoritie A man vseth some time that defense prouoked by the manner off assault off his ennemie which he would not doo iff he might choose his owne fight and it might serue M. Caluin in part for arm our against the bare autoritie off Augustine vrged off the Papistes which is not of proofe against the shot off the word off God. Where he saieth that the Papistes haue no wicked thing which ether hath bene generally obserued or whereoff he is not able to shewe the first autor I answer that it is well the church standethe not in neede off this defense off yowres For if the Lenten fast which in Augustines time had bene by longe coustome receiued if holy water holy oyle the superstition off praying towardes the East which are off those traditions that in the place by him alledged owt off Basile are attributed vnto the Apostles yff those I saie and suche like be against the word off God let hym tell howe he will cleare the Apostels of being autoures off these corruptions which are fathered of them by men off suche credit onlesse he flye to this rocke which by the doctrine off traditions he goeth abowte to vndermine that is to saie that the Apostles haue left in writing whatsoeuer they would haue the churches obserue For what autoritie soeuer he bring to shewe who were the first inuentors of these thinges yt being humane is counteruailed by them which haue caried them vnto the times off the Apostels Where vppon on that I saide that all the commandementes off God and off the Apostels are nedefull for our saluation he maketh such a terrible owtcrie as if all the church had bene set on fire I dowbt whether for the vanitie of the accusation I should vouchesafe yt of answer which for the strong and bitter wordes might seme to require a large defense Howbeit let him vnderstand that when I speake of all the commandementes of God and off the Apostels nether by the deduction off that which I handled nor by any Iudgement not altogether peruerted could I be thowght to meane any other commaundementes then those which perteine vnto vs And iff I had met with the vainest trifler and hawker after syllables which can possibly be yet the sentence I set downe is sufficiently fenced against all his greedines of snapping at yt For the Ceremoniall lawe and personall lawes giuen in times paste being nowe no commaundementes off God and the Apostels can not be comprehended vnder my wordes off the commandementes off God c. And iff a man leuing the deduction off the cawse which I had in hand will staie in the bare wordes which I vsed then euen bothe cermoniall and those which were giuen to particular persones albeit they be not to be doone yet are they for our better instruction in the will off God needefull for our saluacion To the argument which I vsed that iff Augustine would haue vs doo those thinges which the Apostels vsed in the churches not committed to writing then muche more he would haue bene off aduise that we should kepe that which is committed to writing towching their gouernement off the church he answereth nothing In the thirde diuision pag. 107. to that I found fault with off the second rule off Augustine which is that yt is madnes ether not to kepe or to reason off that vvhich is vniuersally obserued off the church he answereth that was a rule for Augustines time and not for all times Wherein he first condemneth him selfe off wandring from the cause which to shew that some thing may be established in our church not commaunded in the scripture alledgeth a rule that belongeth not vnto vs Then it is manifest howe helpeles a shift this is considering that the rule is generall and as generally gyuen as any other the rules which the A. comendeth vnto vs out off Augustine Beside that I alledged that euen in August time yt was wicked to giue any such autoritie to the decree or custome of men as not to enquire into yt which because he durst not denie he left vnanswered And whereas he addeth if it be not repugnant to the word I shewed that Augustine could haue no suche meaning which althoughe he confesse in one word contrary to that which he set downe yet in the same page lest the truthe should get any victorie at his handes he dooth in effect denie yt For he saithe that Aug. hath sondry times in suche rules made this exception iff they be not against faith c. Where yt is manifest that this exception is of those rules which are diuersly obserued and which he openly opposeth vnto this rule and suche as this is off the necessary obseruacion off thinges The place vnto the Gall. was needefully opposed For if there be commandementes off the Apostells vnto the churches and thinges which yt is madnes not to kepe or to enquire into not writen there ys something necessary to saluacion which S. Paul preached not considering that the whole summe off his preaching is cowched in writing The place off Augustine off abrogating ceremonies otherwise indifferent he answereth was not for his pourpose Howbeyt of his pourpose had bene to haue boulted owt the truthe yt â—â— cleare that hauing this cawse in hand whether ceremonies in them selues indifferent owght to be remoued he would not haue dissembled yt As for that he chargeth me with leuing owt off thinges before in the middest and after and thereof hath almoste fylled a whole syde it is vtterly vnworthy any answere considering that I haue left nothing owt which is in controuersie nothing which I doo not willingly confesse nothing that he hathe any aduantage by yea I left that
churche owght not to put forwarde any to the holy Ministery without good tryal off his sufficientie Then yt is vpholden off the wordes off the texte that twoo were set vpp and caused to stand before the congregation For after that sainct Peter had declared what maner off man he owght to bee which should fill vp the voide place off Iudas immediatly S. Luke sheweth that twoo were put vpp as if he shoulde saye consider whether thes he suche or no as ought to chosen and which agree with that which is required off him that must supplye this place The reason wheroff was for that all the men which where in the churche at that time were not capable off that function hauing by no lykelyhood bene with our sauiour Christe continually from the begininge off his preaching vntill the day off his ascension And vnles that S. Peter mente to subiect those vnto the tryall off the churche which were to be chosen why instructed he the churche and gaue a rule to seuer and trie them by After the churche agreed eyther by voice or by silence that they were suche as behoued S. Peter wente forwarde and conceiued a praier as followethe there in the texte And that this is the plaine and naturall order off that action he that hathe but one eye may easely see The scripture is shorte and in a few wordes comprehendeth many thinges and touchinge certein pointes off a storie leauethe other to be gathered off the diligent reader sometimes which was doone before by expressing that which was doone after other sometimes that which is doone after by expressing that which was doone before Whereoff yff neede were yt is not harde to shew diuers examples And theroff is that sentence so often vsed off the Hebrew Doctours 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Scripture stayeth yt selfe vpon or presumeth an vnderstanding reader withowt the vvhiche yt shall seme very vnsufficient that ys most perfect and vvithowt the which a greate portion off the vvorde of God ys loste And vvhere as yow saye that yt is certaine that there was no tryall because they were sufficiently knowne first yt appeareth not by any wordes in the texte that they were sufficiently knowē And considering that as yt comethe comōly to passe in a persequuted churche there were by al likelihood some lately come to the church they might be well vnknowne to thē althowghe they vvere well knowne to others Thē the questiō is not whether they vvere examined or no but vvether they vvere set vpp to be tried so that iff there vvere a proferr off tryall althowghe no tryall folowed the place ys aptly alledged For albeit they were knowne to the vvhole companie so that there needed no inquirie into their behauiour or other thinges vvhiche are in the compas off the churche to iudge of yet that ys no cause why they shoulde not be offered to the examinaciō Nether is yt reason that the knowne habylytie off some one or twoo shoulde breake an ordinary lawe in the churche off god And yow that haue serued your selfe more thē once or twyce vvithowt cause as shall appeare off the manner of ciuill elections to ouerthrowe the Ecclesiasticall might here by the consideration off them haue bene delyuered from this abusinge off yowr selfe and others Yow knowe in the election off followes and scolers where the lawe commaundethe an examination before the election althowghe the parties to be chosen be neuer so sufficient and there sufficientie neuer so well knowne to all to vvhō the choise belongethe yet the offer of themselues to be examined is so necessary that if that be not they cā by no meanes be chosen If therfore mans lawe in suche small elections hath suche force that yt will giue place to no mans excellencye or singularitie how muche more owght the lawe of God vvhich byddethe generally vvithout exception that they shoulde be tryed vvhich are promoted to the ministery in so greate and weighty an election to kepe her force Where yow say ther was no other cause off presenting them then that which is expressed in the text tell me what cause is expressed off presentinge them in the congregation surely none that I reade those two which I alledged in my replie are gathered but none is expressed So that yf there vvere no other cause off there presenting then that vvhich is expressed there shoulde be none at all and that action off the Apostles should be to no purpose What expresse wordes are there in the texte contrary to this tryall or at the lest offer off triall the vvordes shoulde haue bene noted the meaning shoulde haue bene beaten owte where vve neede your helpe there you forsake vs vvhere the meaning is cleare and vvithout controuersie there you trouble your selfe and vs boothe Yf yt be a rule to be folowed yt must be followed wholy saith the answere This is very definitiuely and magistrally said and being a dangerous error as that vvhich tendeth to the ouerthrowe of the cheifest heads of Christian religion is notwithstanding farced with scoffing questions in derision off the truthe I neuer learned nor I doo not vse to add or take away from the word off God I expounde the scripture and gather off it vvhich is not to add and in saying that something is not to be follovved off vs I take nothing away for I confesse yt to be so as the storie reporteh And althoughe that parte be no example to follow yet euen now and to the ende yt conteinethe a profitable doctrine But if I take away from the scripture because I say that some Parte of that action is not to be follovved you do muche more that saye nothing theroff ys to be followed I distinguishe beweēne that which was for a tyme and that which is perpetual and to distinguishe is not to dismember Al the reuelations I haue are owt off the reueled worde off God I knowe that this parte off this action touching the examination ys to be followed because yt is confermed by other places off the scripture thother not so for that yt hathe not the like confirmacion This spirite off slumber whearwithe the lorde hathe striken yowe in that yowe say that if a rule be to be followed yt is to be obserued wholely shall better appeare when I come to yower answer of that which is writen in the 51. and 112. pages of my former booke where this is handled No doubte saith he this is an extraordinary example As Archidamus said to his son̄e beinge to venterowse and boldhardy either put to more strēght or take avvaie some of this courage so I must admonishe yow that either yow woulde come stronger withe argumētes or els goo softlier to thes doctoral determinatiōs Is yt without all doubte that all thinges are here extraordinary nothing of necessitie to be followed For so yow say when yow will not haue yt followed in other parte because some one is not to be followed What is yt not necessary
greatly in suspition off error It is sufficient that the prouer be off moo eies seinge better then one be trewe for the moste parte which is the nature off a prouerbe And in makinge off lawes the lawe giuer respecteth what is for the most parte expediēte and not that whiche maie be good some times For otherwise it might be saied the bishoppe shoulde not medle withe the election but his chapleine because yt may happen that he is more hable to medle in that matter then the bishoppe It is no smale owtrage yowe doe the churche off God to accounte off yt as off an ignorante multitude For onlesse yowe meane the churche when yowe saye then a thowsand other whiche be ignorant yowe speake beside the matter seing wee doe not permitte either examination or election off the ministers to euery multitude and blinde assemblie but vnto those onely whiche make an open and cleare profession off the trewthe Therefore yowre glorious and great speaches alwaies off the Bishoppes are affectioned and aspire somewhether For yf they preceded off the feare off God yt can not be but that feare of God and spirite of humilitie whiche taughte yowe to speake so of them woulde haue spoken muche more reuerently off the churche whose seruantes they owghte to be And when yow saie or that in suche matters be farr inferior to him yff yow meane ten thowsand off those whiche be off the churche the voice is straunge and needed some reasons to acquainte vs with yt especially seinge it touchethe as yowe thinke the cause But yowe wander still and the prouer be yowe confute not For let yt be that the bishope seeth more then 10000. off the churche whiche proportion beinge more vnequall then that betwene the sonne and the mone carieth withe yt a sente off the popishe insolencie admitte I saie that the bishopes eie be so good yet if the churche haue anie eie at all that beinge ioined with his will see better then his alone And that is the meaninge of the prouerbe not to compare one good eie with manie bad but to shewe that that whiche alone i◠hable to doe somewhat withe company and helpe is hable to doe it better And therfore oneles yowe will haue yowre bishoppe so full off sighte that he can leaue no thinge vnseene and to haue receiued the spirite withowt measure which is onely proper vnto our sauiour Christe yowe haue yet browghte nothinge to shewe why he owghte not to haue the assistaunce off others in the examination off the minister S. Paule refusethe not to learne of the churche off God in those thinges wherin he wente as farr beionde the bishope as any bishope can goe beionde the simplest of his diocese Apollos was instructed and tawghte of a powre handycraftes man and his wiffe In the counsell of Nice a simple man and one that knewe nothinge but Iesus Christe bothe ouerturned ād turned a Philosopher whome all the 318. Bishopes coulde not moue bothe S. Paule and Apollos and the 318. Bishopes were off Singuler knowledge in those thinges wherin they were aided and desired to be aided off those which were a great deale inferior vnto them What honie haue our bishoppes eaten off that they can see so clearly into the fitnes off a minister that the churche off God can not bothe see that whiche they see and that also whiche they haue ouerseene Belike yt is because our bishopes are more sharper of Sighte then euer any were and our churches more ignorante then any haue bene before And if the churches were tawghte of them wherein they are for the moste parte smalliest beholdinge vnto them as the plentifull knowledge of the churche shoulde haue bene a seale of their aboundance so what soeuer is saide off the ignorance argueth nowe the wante of their knowledge and in the ende retourneth to the weight of their condemnation Which yff it were well considered of him yt semeth that for the ialousie he hathe ouer the estate of a Lorde Bishope he woulde haue spoken more reuerently off the churche Wheras yowe say that offices off greatest charge are onely in the Princes choise Still yowe confute your shadowe for I speake off those elections wherin diuers haue interest sainge that yt seldome commeth to passe that vppon one mans reporte off his habilitie vvhich is to be chosen all the reste vvhich haue interest in that election vvill giue theyr voices What worde is here which giueth occasion to speake off the princes elections which are made by her selfe alone yowe haue therfore picked a quarel to speake off the welbestowing of offices onles yt shoulde be some profit vnto yowr selfe which yow imagined might come by sprinckling off thes faire wordes I see no ende of yt sure I am yt is no answere vnto that which yt pretendeth For my parte I will not contrary that yow speake of the good bestowing off the offices by the prince And I am well assured that some of them be bestowed of moste worthye men But yt is good for princes to haue as it were eares off horne againste suche sweete songes as these be and notwithstanding them to stire vpp them selues to greater warenes in the bestowing off their offices Therefore to let passe the offices off charge in the com̄on wealth for the Ecclesiasticall charges which her maiestie bestoweth althowghe they be off the greateste porte yet they will appeare not off the greatest charge vnlesse yow meane charge actiuely that is to saye great charge and vnprofitable burden vnto the churche not bearinge the churche but borne of yt euen almoste to the breakinge off her backe And those also as I thinke are not chosen off the prince alone but named onlie and chosen off the canons off that sea wheroff he is to be appointed bishoppe and confirmed off the Archbishoppe But lett yt be here obserued that Maister D. seemeth by affirmation off this thing although falsely without saying any thing against yt to gïue the election off the bishop onely vnto the Prince whiche if he maie doe in the bishopes whiche he taketh head ministers muche more maie he doe it in the other ecclesiasticall orders which he accounteth vnder the bishope here first I woulde knowe wether he will stande to this or no or whether hauing nothinge to answere he vsed this for a shifte Then whether the Bishopes will take in good parte this translatiō of the churche righte into the handes of the ciuil magistrate ād whether for there tēporalties as it wer for a messe of rise potage they will suffer the churches inheritaunce to be thus riotowsly alienated to be offered where yt is not asked to be geuen where it is not receiued And iff they be contente to parte from this iff need be that they maie kepe thother or be contente that maister D. forrewarde off his proctorshipp shoulde haue the disposing off it at his pleasure then I shall haue something more to saie in this behalfe The election off ministers committed
affyrme that the example off the Apostles in layinge on of handes vpon hym which ys to be ordeined coun terualleth a commaundement and owght to be folowed And if where I haue said the doinges of the Apostles owght to be folowed in the gouernment of the churches he aske how I answere that that they did in especiall cases then is to followed vvhen suche cases fall those which they did ordinarily and generally to be ordinarily and generally followed Those thinges which they did in founding off churches and before they were established to be in life maner vsed those which they did when the churches were established to be in the same maner ordered And to enter yet further into this matter Where he saithe that the argument is nothing worth which is drawen of the facte of the Apostle by the same reason he also condemneth argumentes browght of the factes of our Sauiour Christ and muche more of all other holie men and Prophetes Wherof the scripture is full as when our Sau. Christ proueth that it was lawfull in some case to breake the corporall reste of the Sabothe by the example off Dauids eating of the shew bread As when he excused him selfe that he did not worke his miracles in Nazareth where he was nourished vp rather then in Capernaum and other places by the examples off Elias and Elizeus by which he tawght that a man may attempte nothing without a vocation all these argumentes if M. D. had had the answeringe of them he would as it semeth haue said vnto our sauiour Christ that they are nothing worth I graunt there be some actes of our Sauiour Christ and other godlie men in the scripture vvhich being commendable in them would not be so in vs they hauinge some either extraordinarie spirite or commaundement vvhich we haue not Off which sort Idowbte not but Maister Zuinglius mente this sentence which yow alleadge As would haue bene easely seene yf yow had quoted the place I think he hathe bene alledged ād quoted aboue fortie times before and neuer a sentēce that maketh either whot or coulde to the matters in controuersie or which might once prouoke me to look whether they were so or noo this onely place was somewhat materiall and here it is not quoted But to come againe to those extraordinarie factes I saie that as the spoilinge off the Egyptians by the Israelites at the commaundemēt off God and the killinge of Cosby and Zamry by Phinchas throwghe the inspiration off the spirite off God can not let vs from teachinge generally that theft is vnlawfull that the Magistrate only owght to punishe publike malefactors so those fewe Actes vvhich doon of our Sau. Christ the Apostles and other godlie men are not to be folowed off vs can not let vs to teache generally that there Godly deedes which lie in vs to doo owght to be followed And as I may reason notwithstanding those exāples that he is a thefe because he hath taken that vvhich an other hath labored for against his will and he is a murtherer because he hathe slaine a malefactor being no magistrate for that purpose so I may saie he dothe well for so our Sau. Christ did so did the patriarches and he dothe euill for our Sauiour Christ the Apostles the patriarches did otherwise in that case And he that shall denie this argument vvithowt shewinge some speciall and manifest reason Wherfore it was lawfull for the one to doo that vvhich was not for the other he is vnworthie to be a scholer in the diuinitie scooles much lesse Doctor Yf therfore the Ans would haue by any Good order put me from the possession of this place he should haue shewed that S. Paul of some speciall occasion which falleth not into our ministerie vsed this circumspection in taking suche a clowde off witnesses for the assurance off Timothies good behauior or that there is some generall rule and commaundement to the contrarie But that as he hathe not done so he can not doo there being no one stepp of any such either particular cause or generall rule either mentioned or to be gathered of that place or of any other scripture It must therfore be estemed that S. Paul did that of a generall equitie and common conuēience which owght to be vsed in such graue and weightie matters off the church Yea if M. D. Would haue a litle laid a syde his inordinate desyre off mainteining that which he hath once written he should haue founde iuster cause of this circumspection in our elections then in this For if S. Paul an Apostel endewed vvith suche a gift of discretion of spirites would not take Timothy vvhich had bene browght vpp from his cradell in the knowledge of the Scriptures and had liued in all commendation from his infancie Timothe I say whom he had now knowen as it may be verie probably shewed of some reasonable time into companye of his ministe rye withowt suche diligent circumspection how muche lesse may a Bishop in authoritie inferor vnto him in gifte of discerninge spirites not to be compared receyue into the mynistery vpon the Testymonie off one onelie a man vvhom he hathe not knowen before and vvhatsoeuer he be in knowledge of the word of God far behinde Timothy And yt is not to be let passe for further answere to that which ys alleadged owt of Zuinglius Of a deede or an example to make a lavv that yt hath bene shewed to haue bene the practise of all the Apostles at other tymes in there elections and therfore this is not of one facte to make a rule but off the continuull practise of the Apostles Moreouer by defense of receiuing at the testimony of one onely what doth he els then make as easie an entrance into the highest place off the church off God as a man off any calling and wisdome ioyned with yt would make into one of the least offices of his howse for surely if he haue any regarde vnto the good order of his howse and consider that the misbehauiour off his seruāte vvhom he vvill put in any trust reacheth vnto the dishonour of him selfe and his vvhole howshold he vvill neuer admit him vvhom he knoweth not vvithowt some one mans commendation off whom he is well assured But the law of God in this behalfe is most clere which to the deciding of a vveighty matter in dowbt requireth two witnesses and if it can be thre and namely where the iudgement is of bloude yt expresly forbiddeth that iudgement should passe vpon the Testimonye of one But in the iudgement of a minister where the question is of a great numbre of destruction of bodie and soule and that for euer shall it being dowbtfull be giuē vpō one mās testimonie how sufficient so euer he be Especially seing that there owght to be greater triall and more plentifull witnes in the churche matters thē in ciuil causes which may appeare further by that which S. Paul writeth vnto Tymothie Where he
that mynisterie So that yf they vvoulde conclude any thinge off that example they muste conclude that the churche maie chuse one which yt thincketh vvill deceyue the truste that ys laide vppon him I coulde here dispute vvhether althowghe he repented trewlie yet forsomuche as he is subiecte to another suche fall as well as any other yt vvere boothe lesse daunger for hym and les hurte for the churche to receiue suche an ouerthrowe vnder an other capitayne neuer foiled then vnder him vnder whoÌ„ yt hathe already bene put to flighte But forsomuche as yt is not so cleare and requireth a longer discourse I am contente to let that passe Yet that maye not be omitted that as in the refusall off a minister which hathe defyled hym selfe withe Idolatrie prouision is made for the safety and securitie of the churche so an eye ys had to a more plentifull fruicte which maie redounde vnto it by hym that is placed in the ministrie And forasmuche as no smale portion off that shoulde be by greate likelihoode turned a waie by restoring suche one as hathe fallen so grieuously amongest other reasons that also hathe force to hinder his restirucion For vvhen S. Paule requireth aucthoritie in a deacon purchased by continuall tenor and as yt weere by an euen thread of a holye and innocente liffe that he might vvithe greater libertie and boldnes execute his office he sufficiently declarethe that suche a fall especially in the bishoppe and mynister taken in the race off his ministerie maketh a deepe wounde into that authoritie and freedome off rebukinge others which is necessary for hym for furtherance off hy mynistry to retaine And as yt taketh awaie from his freedome in reprehending so that which he reprehendethe hathe so muche lesse aucthoritye withe the hearer as yt is not onlye not confyrmed but contraried by his example And yf Tymothe beinge endewed with suche rare gyftes off knowledge and holynes off lyffe had muche a doo to mainteine his authoritie in the churche againste the contempte of his yowthe which was no faulte he had neede haue very extraordinarie gyftes which can deliuer hys mynisterie from contempte ten folde more occasioned by suche a fall then by wante of a fewe years Seinge therfore the vvounde beinge healed by repentance the skarr dothe yet remaine in the eyes of the churche to the blemishinge of his Mynistrie yt ys good he be taken downe and set in some les lightesome place off the churche off God. There was yet a thirde reason vvhiche no doubte moued the churches to keepe this order that this barre off hym from the mynistrie vvhiche had so fallen mighte serue for example vnto other mynisters to take heede For they consydered well that as common wealthes so the churches of God are preserued by rewarde and punishement and that as in the rewarde off some other are prouoked to make after those thinges vvhich are by that rewarde crowned so by the punishement off some other are terrified from doinge that for whiche they see them dishonored Therfore they thowghte yt vnmete that he which had faulted in the qualytie off a mynister shoulde no other wise be disciplined then a pryuate person but rather as his faulte exceded so his correction shoulde encrease Whiche thinge beinge so muche commended in common wealthes well gouerned I see no cause why yt shoulde not be as conueniente in the churche off God so farre and in suche kinde off corrections as are in the churches power And therfore yt appeareth that the commaundemente which is gyuen in Ezethiell and in the booke off the kinges for the separatinge off the Leuytes from their Ministerie which had fallen to Idolatrye was not a lawe for a tyme but drawne from the springe off that equytie which can not be changed And so farr is yt that the gospell hath made this lawe voide that yt hathe also confyrmed yt for yf the ministerie off the lawe were so gloriouse that yt vvoulde not be handled off those which had once fallen from yt by Idolatrie althowghe they did repente howe muche more owghte the mynystrie off the gospell which so surmounteth the mynisterie off the lawe as the gospell dothe the lawe be vntowched off suche as forsaking yt haue defyled them selues with that synne And if for a lesse faulte they were kepte from a lower place in the church for a greater faulte shoulde not they muche more be kepte from a higher dignitie for wheras nowe the seconde tyme he faithe that vnder the lawe there were certeine corporall pollutions which made a man vncleane for a tyme yt proceadethe of too great ignorance off the Scripture either in not knowing in what shorte tyme those polutions mighte be purged or els assigning anie cawse off the Leuytes putting forthe off their ministrie for euer for the polutions which were in so fewe dayes clensed Yowr allegatioÌ„n owte off maister Caluin towching the widowes is nothing for yow nothing to the cause For what if he saye that the Apostell requireth that they shoulde be benyficiall doothe yt therfore followe that respecte shoulde not be had into their vvhole life Yt may be easely vnsterstaÌ„ded that the apostel hauing drawne the office off a wydowe throwghe diuers sortes of good workes becawse yt had bene to longe to recyte all shutteth vp vvith that clause as yf he shoulde saie that I stande not in rehersall off all I will haue her suche as hathe exercised her selfe in euery good worke But I desire the reader to obserue the vnfaithfullnes and open corruption that he vseth in cyting off maister Calu. For his iudgement being not called for but answere required to the wordes of S. Paule he hath taken that which serueth not to the purpose and hathe lefte owte that in the exposition of the same verse which is directly againste that he alledgeth maister Caluin for Whose wordes are these There is no dovvbte bâ—t there vvere vvorshipfull and very reuerent colledges or companies off vvidovves therfore Paule vvill haue none chosen thether but such as be commended by a notable testimonie off their vvhole former lyfe And wheras he asketh howe coulde that be when they had but one parte off theire lyfe knowen Christe not to speake off the Iewishe widowes which might haue led their whole life in good and holy worckes in deede he muste learne that S. Paule dothe not there speake onely off good workes which are the fruictes of faithe but callethe those good workes whiche are cyuilly and in owtewarde shewe and estimacion off men good So that he requireth that those onely be chosen emongest the weomen which were neuer detected off any notable cryme but haue allwaies lyued in an honeste cyuill behauiour amongest their neighboures And thus S. Luke calleth those vveomen religious and honeste which were moued to persequte S. Paul. There was nether trewe Religion nor honestie in them but so he calleth them because they were so estemed S. Paul also saithe off him selffe when he was the enemy off
churches interest whiche he dothe so plainly bothe here and els where affirme And where yt is supposed that the churche hathe leue to oppose againste him that is to be elected I haue shewed howe manifeste mockerie yt is off the churche off god As for that whiche is saied off maister Bulling and Maister Caluin iointly that they haue affirmed off the significatiō off the worde as muche as he yt is a manifeste vntrwthe For maister Caluin neuer affirmed that the scripture euer vsed that worde to note the ceremonie off layinge on off handes Off M. Bullinger yt hathe bene before spoken There followeth in this seconde rancke Oecunemius whose testimonie is so flat againste the Ans signification off the word lifting vp off handes and therfore also againste the sole election off the bishoppe as a clearer coulde not be required His words be thes yt is to be noted that the disciples vvithe fastinge and praiers did make elections by voices Nowe seinge by the worde disciples Saint Luke and the Scoliast followinge him continually throwghe the storie of the Actes note the people whiche belieued it is manifeste that the Scoliaste dothe both cōclude vppon this place that the people did chuse and cōcludethe yt also of the worde lifting vp off handes Whether in attributinge the same worde vnto Paule and Barnab he meane therby the ceremonie off imposition off handes I will not as in a thinge not worthe the trauaile stande yt is enowghe for me to haue shewed how this testimonie makethe directly againste that whiche the Doctor affirmeth that is to saie that the worde lifting vpp off handes signifiethe in this place off the Actes onely the ceremonie off layinge on off handes For if it signifie bothe the election by voices and the ceremonie off layinge on off hands then our cawse standeth as sure as if it onely signified the election by voices And to this testimonie off the Scoliaste agreeth the same Ignatius that the Ans in his former boke maketh so greate accompte off who writeth thus yt is meet that yovv as those vvhiche be the church off god should chuse by voices yovvr bishopp Wherby not onely appeareth that that author wil haue the churche chuse her minister but also how this worde is vsed off him in the proper signification to note the election whiche is made by voices Chrysostome remaineth which taking the worde for the imposition off handes doothe not exclude the naturall signification Brentius translating Chrysost had folowed that sense I set downe yf the D. can confute him by the greeke example he is worthy off credite Let vs now see what the Ans hath to say against those reasons wherby I shew that S. Luke by lifting vp off handes ment properly the election by voices I may not saithe he teache the holie goste to speake God forbid I should goe abowte yt But shall not he whiche made the mouthe speake and he whiche teacheth all other to speake properly speake properly him selfe I doo not therfore teache the holy goste to speake whiche applie his words to make them agree withe the thinges they signifie but yowr opinion supposeth wante off knowledge off the tonge in the holy goste whiche woulde haue hym signify layinge downe by liftinge vp And where yow saie I trifle becawse he that laieth on his handes muste firste lifte them vpp or euer he can laie them on who trifleth in this poincte let all iudge For who dothe not vnderstande that the name is vsually giuen off the principall and nearest action wherwithe it is doon and not off those actions whiche are farr off accidentall or for the cause and sake off the principall And yt is all on as if a man should call the takinge off a knife into his hande cuttinge off breade because he that cutteth breade muste before take the knife into his hande How be it if there were the same manner off layinge on off hādes in the primitiue churche whiche is in poperie and withe vs where he that is chosen kneeleth on his knees to receiue the bishopps layinge on off handes yt is so farre from any neede to lifte vp his hand or euer he can laie yt on that onles he carie his handes verie vnmanerly like a paire off hanging sleeues he muste let them downe or euer he can can laie them on the heade off him whiche is chosen Therfore althowghe an other mighte vse this poore shifte yet yow which haue vndertaken to defende whatsoeuer the bishops generallie doo in their elections haue if I shoulde deale hardly with yow loste this aduantage Yt is nothinge with the A. that the 70. interpreters off the ould Testament nor that S Paule and Luke him selffe vtter the layinge on off handes by other words Thes are bare coniectures beinge alledged againste him but ye shall heare by and by where he hathe not halfe suche a reason the greate bell goe with certeinly and manifestly Howbeit althowghe thes seem bare coniectures to him yt muste needes haue weighte with those that haue their senses well acquainted with the holy scripture For they knowe that the writers off the newe testament frame them selues vnto the manner off speache off the oulde when they speake off the same thinges and for the gentils sake whiche had knowledge off the translation of the seuentie interpreters they kepe them so carefully to that that sometimes they vse it althowgh yt be not in euery poincte so iuste ād so answerable vnto the trewthe of the Hebrew as mighte haue beene Which thinge doone off all those especially whiche laboured in the tillage off the gentills amongeste whom S. Luke S. Paules Companion was whosoeuer considereth muste nedes confesse that this coniecture is not so bare as he maketh yt I aske yff any man can reasonably thinke that in one and the same ceremonie commen aswell vnto vs off the Newe Testament as those off the oulde Saint Luke woulde leaue bothe the maner of speache of the Hebrewes and the wordes off the 70 interpreters to take a straunge phrase from the one and diuers wordes from the other or whether he woulde leaue the phrase and wordes which the Iewes and gentils were acquainted withe to vse a phrase whiche the Iewes neuer harde of and a worde whiche was in that signification vnknowen vnto the Gentils off all whiche when there is no one which hath not force to perswade this sentence so the laste is suche that yt leuethe no place vnto any resistance For when the holy goste speaketh with the tonges off men and to their vnderstandinge if by this worde lifting vp off handes he had signified a layinge on of handes he coulde not haue beene vnderstanded seinge that worde was of no suche signification in that tonge And where he saithe I oppose my bare coniectures to improue so many learned mennes iudgements I haue shewed howe he hath ouer toulde I haue no where reasoned againste yow as if yow shoulde affirme that by that worde the laying of on hādes
Caluin Beza Bullinger Zuinglius and others bringe to proue that the church ought to haue right in the election off their minister and that yt belongeth not to one bishopp to choose a minister they may answer that the bishop chuseth not but the church yea the whole realme For the prince and the people and the vvhole lande haue giuen that powre vnto the Pope and the pope to him so that whatsoeuer is doon in that election by the bishoppe is doon by the people But see howe I forget my selfe which alledge this vnto him as a greate absurditie whose case in this question is all one with the Papistes yet euen with him it shall be sufficient to vntie the bande which wee haue bounde our selues with onles he will haue the election still continewe in the Popes handes And indeede he calleth vs heere to the consideration off our sinnes wherby wee haue thus prodigally wasted and gyueÌ„ into the handes of straungers the liberties which were bowght with so great a price And wee haue better cawse to thinke the earnestlier off them for somuche as the Answ lawgheth vs to scorne and woulde make vs beleue that wee consente to elections when wee are a sleepe that we chuse those whom wee refuse and so other eatinge the kernels he maketh vs not a diner but a feaste with the shels To all thes accusations off the A. wherby he chargeth the ciuill elections off bodies politike if I shoulde answer that The disorder off the bishoppes election is suche the peace with Sathan and synne and contention with all goodnes that hath and dailie dooth issue by them into all the partes off the Realme so horrible the ambition of the person standinge in election so shameles the corruption off some the partiall affection off others to their kinsfolke their seruaÌ„ts their seruaÌ„ts freeÌ„ds the carelesnes of others in some the waÌ„te of sufficieÌ„t knowledge in other some of sinceritie and purenes of doctrine to be shorte in all the wante of dewe consyderatioÌ„ of weightynes of that ministerie is so apparante that as that manner off election for necessarie cawses is altered in the best ordered churches in Europe so it is desired to be altered in the churche of Englande by those which be wise godly and learned and by those which loue the godlie quietnes and prosperitie off the churche and that experience crieth that those are the worthiest ministers most apteste to set forthe the glorie off God muste profitableste for the church which are chosen with the consente of the people I saie if I shoulde answer thus I dowte not but all the worlde will witnes with me that I haue iuster cause thus to speake off the bishoppes elections off ministers then the A. hathe to speake so slaunderously off ciuill elections made by consent in townes and cities God be praised this cause off discipline wee mainteine hath bene and by Godes grace shal be vpholden withoute towche off any lawfull estate or forme off gouernment off commen wealth but yt appeareth that the Answ can not mainteine his cawse without open oppugninge off one off them And therfore to keepe the bishoppe in his throne downe muste goe all elections by manie and by the same reason all trialls off controuersies by manie all determinations and iudgmentes by manie and in a vvorde the whole estate almoste off our commen wealth muste bee remoued Yow acâ—e vs off confoundinge the commen wealth vvhich yow are neuer hable to proue here yow are taken in the verie acte doinge not by conclusion or implication but by a flatt and directe affirmation I dowbte not that wise men doo see yowr folie vvhich beinge so vnskilfull of the gouernment of the churche the knowledge vvherof you doo professe vvill take vpon yow as Phormio vnto Haniball to prescribe vvhat forme of gouernemente muste be vsed in the commen vvealth And if it vvere not beside my profession I coulde shewe that it agreeth moste bothe with the definition of a cytisen vvhich those gyue vvhich handell this matter and vvith the practise off the beste gouerned cities that the cytisens should haue this intereste off choise off their Maiors and Bailifes confirmed by experience off daungerous seditions and seperatioÌ„s from the coÌ„men wealth which haue happened by abridginge the people off this and suche liberties But for somuche as yt belongethe not vnto a diuine to medle with those but to contente him selfe with what forme off gouernemente soeuer so it be lawfull thowght good to those to whom the orderinge of that doothe perteine I leaue to speake of that matter But a man maye smell the D. farre off For this is put in for defence off that spoile which he and others by vntrew surmises moste vnnaturally made in the vniuersitie when to th ende the Idlenes couetousnes and ambition of certeine might be the more secure and without checke they by their longe and crooked talones seased vpon the authoritie off the Vniuersitie Senate But because he casteth so scornefully awaie those reasons vvhich are alledged by me I woulde knowe what he will answer to Maister Martyr who vseth the same reason I haue here saying that it is no meruaile that the church hath this righte to chuse her ministers seinge the ciuil lavves doo giue this povvre to incorporate tovvnes to chuse their Physicions and Scolemaisters Where he saith that the multitude is for the moste parte ignorant careles and oftentimes euill disposed and commonly led by affection hatred feare c. There is no vice which anie one off the churche is subiecte vnto but the bishopp is subiecte vnto the same Nether iâ— there any affection enemie vnto a good election wheroff the bishoppe is not liker to be ouercomed then either the whole churche or the greateste parte theroff What neede this goinge abowte the bushe I speake off the visible churche called by the preaching off the gospell not off those whose callinge is yet hydden and folded vp in Godes electioÌ„ And of those I saie not as yow for what can yow els doo vntrewly reporte that they can not erre in chusing their pastor but that they are not such ignorant dottrels as yow woulde make vs beleue aÌ„d such as haue no taste to discerne betwene good and bad holie and vnholie And this knowledge and discretion off good and euill is not onely in those whiche are effectually called but in those also vvhich haue onely the outward callinge without the spirite off sanctification and adoption off the children off god So that the pretence off suche ignorance as yow speake off can not fall into anie whiche are off the visible church off god The D. coulde not hale in the corrupte interpretation off the pope in this place to helpe to make vp his answer but he muste ascribe a notable vntrewthe vnto me that I shoulde goe abowte to proue that the churche can not erre in the election off the minister Where haue I pretended any suche thinge or what neede haue I to
which can not be nows the reason yow assigne in the fewnes in one place off the professors then and multitude now Althowghe yt be graunted that there are moe nowe in the cities then were then and that be geuen yow too that the multitude owghte to chaunge the forme off elections neither wheroff yow are hable to shewe yet yt still fallethe owte againste yow For allbeit ther be moe professors in a citie then were yt followeth not that there are moe belonginge vnto one assembly then there were thē Wherin I wil goe no further thē to the exāple of the church which yow alledge to haue chosen the deacons vvhere coulde hardly be lesse then sixe thowsande persons seing that at the second sermon of Saincte Peter there beinge fiue thowsande it is affirmed afterward that multitudes off men and weomen were added Now where shall yow haue lightly in the cities vvhich professe the gospell one onely church of so many thowsand persons cōsidering that for the greater cōmoditie of meeting and gouerning the whole masse off Christians in one citie yt is deuided into seuerall churches as it were flockes into seuerall feedinges And if yow vvoulde haue proued any thinge yow shoulde not haue considered howe the nomber off Christians are increased in their cities but howe they are encreased in their churches And so yow shoulde haue founde that by your owne reason the elections in the time off persequution owghte rather to haue bene made by one and the electiōs now by many seinge in persequuted churches for vvāte off the commoditie off diuiding them selues into proportionable assemblies the nomber beinge more the danger off tumulte and confusion muste by yowr owne sayinge be greater Yow saie yt is a verie good reason that because the churche was vnder the crosse therfore yt was few in nomber in comparison but yow answer not the auctoritie which I alledged touchinge the encrease off the children of Israell more vnder the crosse then in prosperitie The reason yow add off many hypocrites in the peace of the churche hath small force For that there are in persequuted churches manie hypocrites maie appeare by the Israelites which dred in persequution made often rebellions in the wildernes likewise by the complaintes off S. Paul that al sought their owne not Christes that al were turned from him That one example onely is hable to ouerthrowe that vvhich yow put so generally yet yowr one example off London is not hable to confirme your pourpose yt serueth yow therfore for a pinche at the citie and for no reason off yowr cawse And albeit the backslyding from the Gospell was throwgh the realme verie horrible in Queene Maries daies yet there is no cause to picke Londō owte as the worste seinge there were great nombers there which vvith hasarde off all they had and of their lyues frequented assemblies vvhere the worde off God was truly preached and the Sacramētes purely administred the like meetinges beinge rarely founde in other places no to our owne shame be yt spokē not in the vniuersitie where of moste righte they should haue beene What gaine yow by that the churche was diminished in Ierusalem seinge the decrease of one churche was the encrease off diuers other wherunto those off Ierusalē adioined them selues Therfore yow conclude not well in sainge that particular churches by persecutions are diminished because one churche off Ierusalem was so no more thē yow can saie that a man hath a vvhite head because he hathe one white heare on his head but I maie rather saie that by persequution the particular churches are encreased for somuche as Samaria and other churches were by that flight of Ierusalem partly adorned with teachers partly augmented in disciples And therby is confirmed that I haue set downe off the merueilous spawne off the churche vnder the crosse bothe becawse euerye one dryuen from Ierusalem was as good seede which browght his hundreth or fiftie folde and for that after Ierusalem was deliuered of that birthe she conceiued againe and browghtforthe as maie appeare a greater nomber then before What are my vvordes vverby I affirme that the churches in time off persecution meete often and kepe together yt is that I precisely denie Verely this is too homelie rhetoricke to affirme I saie that vvhich I manifestly denie And althowghe it be more clearer then the son̄e that a smaller nomber maie better knowe one a nother then a great those which dwell nere one to a nother then that dwell farre of and scattered those vvhich meete oftener then vvhich meete seldomer yet the A. dowbteth not to saie that the contrarie of this is a knowen trwthe Wher he alledgeth for profe the often conference and triall off euery one before they be receiued For the firste yt maie be easelie vnderstanded that seinge yt is daungerous for them to meet together godly politie doothe teache them to breake their companies as soone as they maie conueniently And therfore the publicke action ended off preaching prayinge and receiuing the Sacramentes the conference which may be and is commonly in the churches peace one vvithe another throwghe feare off the daunger vvhich maie come off being seene man it together is cut off As for the knowledge by triall off those vvhich are receiued into the churche if he knewe that yt comethe onely off the reporte off twoo or three which giue testimony off those which are to be receiued and that yt extendeth not to any vnderstanding gyuen to the churche off his giftes either of teaching or gouernment but onely that he is a faithfull man I saie if he knewe thes thinges or knowing thē woulde acknowledge them there shoulde be no cause vppon confidence off that triall to fasten such knowledge one of a nother in a churche persequuted Before I further answer the D. reason touching the change of the manners of the Christians in times off peace from that they were vnder persequution vnderstand good reader that this is the very reason off the archpapist Hosius againste the election off the church which affirmeth that there is greater grauitie and constantie in the Christians vnder persequution and therfore that this manner off election by the bishop was browght in nowe to Hosius and the D. I answer that when wickednes breaketh into open actions then they are no more Hypocrites but openly wicked and suche as owght not onely be taken heed off but without speedy amendement remoued I graunte yt is no shame to the churches to haue Hypocrites for asmuche as the iudgement off man can not discerne them and off them and none other is the parable off tares vvhich forbiddeth weeding vntill the daie off haruest and they are onely those which can not be rooted owte But to saie that beside those which are corrupt in religion yt is full off dronkardes whoremongers c. Yt is more then euer S. Paule reproched any the moste diffigured churches he wrote vnto For how manie suche persones as be founde in
booke he affirmethe precisely that the discipline is required to the substance off the church onely he denieth that vvhich the Anabaptist helde that there was no churche where there was no excommunication Likewise pa. 90. where he would make vs beleue that excommunication 19. Math is not by Maister Caluin iudgement vnderstanded off publicke offences Mai. Caluins declareth onely that those priuate admonitions doo not belonge vnto publicke offences but that those publike offenders ought to be excommunicated if they reste not in the churches Iudgement and consequently first complainned of to the churche Which are two off the Ecclesiasticall censures mentioned in that place off S. Mathew he dothe more then once or twise affirme Now leuing the D. in his threchery let vs returne if al were trwe yow alledge here as they are very vntrwe yet they helpe not For yow vvill not denie but dronkardes vvhoremongers papistes c. owghte ether to be driuen to repentance or owte off the churche which whether soeuer come to passe taketh awaie the inconuenience yow alledge againste the election off the church So that onles yow meane to nourishe them in the churche as bandogges to kepe owte this election this barre againste it is easely remoued It is appointed vnto the magistrate by the word off God that he shoulde not onelie prouide that his subiectes liue paceably one with another but also and that especially to see that they hauing the trwe knowledge of God maie serue him as he hathe prescribed This waie off gathering them to the nexte parishes seemed vnto me fitteste to be vsed in that case if yow can shewe better mine shall giue place Onely therfore I made mention of it to shewe that the impossibilitie vvhich yow so often caste in the teeth of the reformacion can haue no place if they continewe vncorrigible I haue before shewed that yt is the cōmaundemēt of God vnto the magistrate to vse cutting and burning and nether to suffer God to be dishonored in them nor the reste off his subiectes infected If they can be discerned for dogges or swine vvhich are not onely filthie in vvhich regarde I called dronkardes c. Swine but also treade the worde vnder their feete then I graunte he vvhich hath that iudgement off them assured by the testimonie of the spirite of God owghte not to teache them But this cōmeth owte of time For I made no mention off dogges and the name off swine I gaue not to the papistes but to filthie liuers and yt ouerturneth yowr pourpose for if they maie not heare the worde muche lesse can they be off the church The preuenting off an obiection is no digression vvhether yt bee friuolous the iudgement shall bee with the reader I tooke the likeliest signification off yowr worde established which is surely grounded withowte remoue and which hathe all the partes off a church nowe I see that by established yow meane allowed by the magistrate Althowghe I haue shewed before by storie that there were churches then which had maintenance of the magistrate yet as in a matter that nether hurteth me not helpeth yow I wil not striue speake of the church visible standing off good and euill of the owtwarde gouernment of the church vvhich standeth in administring off the word and Sacramentes and exercise of all partes off church discipline and that I haue shewed to haue all her partes althowghe not all her ornamentes Which I did not withowt reason annexed againste which cometh nothinge but a bare affertion and a charge off ignorance off that distinction which I my selfe did first propounde towchinge this that the cyuill magistrate is not the heade off the churche yt falleth into the questiō of the Archbishop where it shall be god willing handled That he saithe that the state off the churche was in the Apostles tyme popular by his owne iudgement which gyueth the name vnto the forme of gouernment of that parte which moste rulethe is vntrwe for the State off the beste did beare the greateste rule considering that there were matters belonginge vnto the church doone by the eldershipp wherat the people were not nor coulde not by any conuenience be present yet there was nothing in whiche the peoples Iudgement was required wherin the Eldershipp was not bothe present and president And this saying off the D. that the people in the Apostels times had to doo almoste in euery thinge is directly contrarie to that he hath before discoursed For to the Admo and me opposing the places off the Actes where thinges were doone ether by voice or consent off the church his answer hath bene that the churche had nothing to doo there but onely in the election off the Deacons and that popularitie he affirmeth to haue bene not in respecte that the church was vnder persequution as here in this place but for a speciall cause off contention then in the church Now I vvould gladly knowe of Maister D. What are those places off scripture wherby he will proue that the moste thinges in gouernment were doone by consent off the people if those places wee haūe alledged doo not proue yt That which yow ad off the conuenience that nothing shoulde be doone in the church withowte the consent and knowledge of the magistrate yowr addition taketh nothing from the consent of the churche For the magistrates consente and the churches are not at warre but one may hathe and dothe stande well vvith the other Because the recytall of a 100. differences is vnprofitable I leaue yt in the readers iudgement howe trwly and withowte bragge or figure I haue spoken But if for a 100. there were 1000. yet yowr cause shoulde be neuer the better onles yow can shewe that those differences pull with them a necessitie off change off the forme off election vvhich yow nether doo nor can That one churche shoulde admonishe another and that there are many Hypocrites vnder persequution is before shewed Off wicked ministers which had their followers and louers in the churches of God vvhich notwithstanding kepinge the profession off the gospell were in daunger off the lawes of the contreis where they dwelte is spoken off almoste throwghe all the epistles off Saint Paule yea yt maie appeare throwgh owte the whole course of the ecclesiasticall stories that many churches of Heretikes partly Arians partly Nestorians and especially of the Nouatians were persequuted and banished of heathen Emperours together vvith the catholike church of Christe And it appeareth plainly by that which hath bene of both partes alledged owte of Cypr. that certein churches abowte him did chuse vnmeet ministers Therfore Maister D. doth wounderfully forget him selfe when he saithe that yt is not lyke that the churche in persequution will chuse an vnmeete or wicked mynister or that they which suffer persequution for the gospell doo yt allwaies off conscience or off good conscience wheroff the question is And if he vvill admitte none off thes proses yet if he stand vnto his exposition off
constrained by corruption off tymes maie departe from the Apostolicall election shuttinge owt the people but I denie that that is warranted by substantial argumentes Beside I haue shewed that heere in wordes against vs in his reasons he stādeth for vs Which shall beste be vnsterstanded in that the D. being not hable to lyfte the whole hath mangled them and snatched here and there a worde if peraduenture vntwisted he might deale with them which otherwise he coulde not breake For where I cited owt off Musculus that yt is a boundage vnto the church to haue their minister thruste vppon yt vvithovvt choise off the people he answereth that subiection to magistrates is no bondage wherin he toucheth nether heauen nor earth For he should haue answered as vnto Musculus and not as vnto me considering that I alledged that owt off him off vvhome he hath taken all his reasons And therfore the note off Anabaptisme which he markethe all those vvith that saie yt is bondage vnto the churche to haue their pastor thrust vppon them lighteth vppon Musculus vvhich thus speaketh and affirmeth yt constantly Then his answer is abegging off that in question when he saith that subiection in lawfull matters is no bondage yt being in question vvhether yt be lawfull for the magistrate to take awaie the election from the church To that also owt of Musculus that the minister chosen by the church maie rule vvith a good cōscience and the people obey vnto him easelier then vvhen he cometh in againste their will and thervppon concluded that forasmuche as that manner of election is to be followed vvhich maketh moste to assure the mynisters cōscience of his calling and that the people should be more obedient vnto his doctrine therfore that onely vvas to be holden his answer is that he maie be assured otherwise and that the people otherwise will obey which if yt were true as yt is not is not sufficient for that he is not so easelie assured nor they so easely obey And vvhere as he saith that he which is assured off an inward calling need not to doubte of his owtward yow should vnderstand that the assurāce of the inward calling depēdeth a great parte of the owtward for allbeyt the sprite of God worketh that assurance yet he worketh by the owtward means of the iudgemēt of the elders ād off the church touching his aptnes for the ministrie whileste he considereth that that calling is not the calling off men but off God throwgh the ministerie of men Nether is there any one excepe those vvhich are called extraordinaryly vvhich can haue assurance off any inward calling but by the means off owtwarde For if he were assured that God had called him without the calling off men he owght to obey his voice althowgh men would not call him So that this not distinction but seperation off the knowledge off an inward calling from the owtward is not onely absurde but confirmeth the Anabaptistes which boste off an inward calling where no calling off the church wente before That he addeth yf yt be according to the forme of that church where he is called is but a begging off the question For it being in question whether euery calling that any church vseth be lawfull and seing the minister can not be assured off his owtward calling oneles yt be lawfull it followeth that he vvhich presumeth one must needes presume the other Vppon Musculus saying that the thrustinge off the minister vppon the church vvithout her election dravveth bondage c. and the D affirming that suche elections are meet for the church vnder the christian Magistrate I concluded that therby great iniurie was doone to the Christian Magistrate giuen off God not onely to preserue but to encrease the churches libertie To all vvhich firste the D. answereth that he giueth nothing to the magistrate but which belongeth vnto him and that yt is the magistrates right to vse that kinde of appoincting off ministers which he thincketh good which is a grosse begging off that in controuersie Secondly he saith that the pastors had neuer better cause to obey their pastors neuer les cause to complaine off bondage and cōstraint then nowe when the pastors are chosen without the consente off the churches which as it is barely saied hath no reason to leane vppon is confuted by common sense so it is directly contrarie to that Musculus his author affirmeth in the wordes before alledged Onely for the matter off libertie he alledgeth that the true libertie of the church consisteth in libertie of cōscience and freedome from false doctrine wherunto I answer that it consisteth in them but not onely for to vse assemblies for the ministring of the worde and Sacramētes c. is a libertie of the church And they are not myne but Musc wordes which calleth the election by the church a libertie and the other a bondage of the church I imagine not the corrupt estate to be in the lawes and goūernment off the Christian magistrate but contrariwise giue that vertue to his godly gouernment that the estate off religion maie be easelie pure with him vvhich can be hardly or not without great daunger pure without him Yow if not in wordes yet in deede make the gouernment off the christian magistrate alwaies fraught with dronkardes Idolaters whoremōgers Atheistes c. which was not so before he entred which is nothing els then to make him Lorde of misrule and in steed of a noursing father a fosterer of synne which is the iniurie I complaine off Where yow saie that it is commendation vnto the magistrate to correcte such disordered persons yow saie well but smally to the pourpose smally to your aduantage For if the church hath by benefite of the Christian magistrat besides her owne censures his helpe off ciuill punishmentes for repressing synne she hauing better meanes to weed oute the wicked thē be fore maie be more easely discharged of those vnprofitable burdens I haue not therfore trāsferred the faultes off men vnto the gouernement but yow haue laied to my charge that which your felfe faulte in and I before confuted The forme off election in the Apostles tyme is not chaunged by the magistrates confirmacion For beside that that is properly no parte off the election but a thing vvhich followeth yt this right off confirmacion of elections was in the Apostles times And althoughe the practise was not generall yet there being euen in in their times some Christian magistrates as appeareth by that which hath bene spoken there can be small doubte but this forme off election had in certeine places euen during the Apostles times his approbation If it had not yet the forme theroff is no more changed therby then the forme of preaching and administring the Sacramentes when the magistrate did not allowe of them differeth from that which is nowe when he mainteineth them so appeareth that the magistrates cōfirmatiō standeth without breache of the Apostical forme of electiō which he denieth Thes
trifling questions here albeit moste vnworthy yet are answered almoste all before And if there were a legion moe they are not onely confuted in that this manner off election by the churche confirmed by the magistrate hath bene vsed more then â—00 yeares together but also by the D. owne wordes wherby he leaueth yt in the princes pleasure so to order yt still For if there were such incoÌ„ueniences and absurdities as he imagineth how hath the practise continued so longe bene thowght good by so many good Emperours and so many learned men in all those ages Or if all they were a sleap or of so shorte sighte that they could not see thes inconueniences which the D. hath espied how commeth yt to passe that he leaueth yt in the magistrates pleasure to establishe this order encombred with suche inconueniences and absurdities For the chalenges wherby he would giue to vnderstand that I haue not faithfully alledged Musculus the firste is that I affirme that he vvente aboute to defend the election vsed vvhere he vvas by this that it approched to the election of the primatiue church which he saith is vntrue But the reason wherwith I confirme yt that Muscu saithe yt vavs made not by one minister but by al by the voices of the Senate vvhere some nomber off the people vvere He toucheth not The second that I call the choise off the minister by the churche the Apostolicall forme yet they are not my wordes but Musculus his authors vvhich calleth yt the oulde the fytteste the deuine the Apostolicall and lavvfull election Where he saith that Musculus dooth not call the other elections forced I woulde gladly knowe what difference there is betwene forced and thruste vpon For Musculus in the same tytle maketh all one a mynister thruste vppon the church and a minister which is not chosen off the church in thes wordes The forme off election vsed in the Apostles times is conformable to the libertie and priuiledge off the church vvherof Cyprian made mention and that forme off choise vvherby men began to be thrust vppon the people off Christe being not chosen off yt dooth agree to a church vvhich is not free but subiecte to bondage Hetherto yt hathe appeared that although Musc Iudgement be not wholy for vs yet the reasons vvhich he alleadgeth for this cause are suche as can not be shaken Now I will further shew that as there is some disagreement betwene ours and his Iudgement so there is further distance betwene hym and the D. First therfore he saithe that as the election by the church endured vntill the time off Christian magistrates so the election made by the church and confirmed by the christian magistrate endured vntill that time that the bishoppe off Rome hauinge wronge owte both from the Emperour and the people their right in the election tooke it all to him selfe The D. denieth this stoutly Secondarily Musculus maketh the disorders off electioÌ„s by chusinge vnmeete persons or by corruption throwghe giftes or parciall fauour to beginne then especially when the election taken from the people cam into the bishoppe of Rome and his suffragans handes The D. cleane contrary that thes disorders were especially in the elections by the people and beste auoided when the election is called to the will and becke off one bishoppe Thirdly Musc maketh yt an vnlawfull forme off election when yt is made of the prince but maister D. saith that yt is in the princes powre to make election off ministers him selfe if he will or committe yt to others iff he liste Fourthly Musc helpinge him selfe off the authoritie off Ierome saith that there was no election in poperie becawse they were made without the knowledge off the people and condemneth also the election of the bishopes made by the Canons for the same cause But M. D. saith yt is a moste conuenient and sufficient election which notwithstandinge in that poincte is all one with the election in poperie Last off all wherin lieth a great weight of this controuersie he dooth not saie simply that this forme off choise by the church is vnmeete and inconuenient for this age off he churche but that it coulde not be by and by and out of hand restored and after a litle that it could not be in al churches by and by restored Wherby he gyuethe to vnderstand that in some places yt might be forthwith restored and in other all men owght endeuour to bringe yt in againe withall coÌ„uenient speed So appeareth that although Musculus be pretended yet Pigghius and Hosius be his storers Here cometh to shewe the manner off the election off the Tigurine churche wheron the D. heareth hym selfe so much vvhich as Bullinger whom he cyteth for his author reporteth is this After he had shewed that in all lawfull ministeries off the worde there is required that with innocencie of life he shoulde be learned then chosen accordinge to the worde off God thirdly after he is chosen and presented to the church haue imposition of handes he addeth Heruppon the Tigurine church hauinge taken her leaue off the inordinate ordination off the popishe bishoppe chuseth off the learned and off the ministers off the Senators and off the councell off the 220. that is to saie off the common people vvhich out off the learnedest and honestest deacons should present certeine that are to bee made Bishoppes vnto the Senate and people Off vvhich vvhen the Senate and people haue chosen one they sende him vnto the church ouer vvhich he is set and vvith him a counseiller vvhich doth commend him vnto his church Then the cheifest off the bishoppes off that citie or other place vvhere this nevve bishop muste be maketh a Sermon and in publike praier made off the church in this behalfe layinge on his handes commendeth the church vnto him Wherin howe many thinges are fauouringe our cause and openly fighting against the D. vppon that I haue before noted of the election of the churches of Berne I leaue to be considered ALthowghe the D. as his vse is speaketh off one thinge so often and that in the same diuision and with spaces put betwene so that yt is harde to giue answer with any conuenient vnderstandinge off the reader yet I will as well as I can referre his scattered sayinges to certeine heades Wheroff the firste is that he did not meane to proue by thes places off Timothe and Titus that the election belonged vnto one man Wheruppon he chargeth me with willfull deprauinge off his answer Yt muste be therfore considered if we maie holde this wett eele by the mouthe The Adm. saithe in the primitiue church no minister vvas placed in the congregation but by consente off the people but novve that authoritie is giuen to the bishoppes handes alone the D. answereth by the place off Timothe and Titus Now this beinge a commaundement and by his iudgement both directed onely to Tim. and Tit. and to them as bishoppes yt followeth
that he hath taught that Sainct Paule commaundeth that they and in them all bishoppes shoulde onely chuse Wherby are condemned all election by the church as those which haue intruded vppon the bishoppes possession Where he saith that the Adm. dothe coulorably affirme by thes wordes thautoritie is gyuen to the bishopp alone c. that the right off orderinge ministers doth at no hand apperteine vnto the bishopp I would knowe what word there is heere where this coulor is to bee seene aÌ„d what light he is able to giue vs to make yt appeare The other sentence wherwith he woulde proue yt followeth after nether was he come vnto yt Yf he did therfore confute that it is as straunge as iff a man shoulde shutte off and spende his arrowes or euer he come within the reach off his enemie And I thinke there is no example off suche confutation onles he had coupled that place with this and comparinge them together sett vpon them both at ones beside that it is Absurde that where the Adm. heere spake off the election he answereth off admission Here cometh to be considered the A. dealinge in the end off the booke where charged with vnfaithfullnes for that as in this place he would haue in synuated that the Adm. would haue the people chuse onely to proue hym selfe giltles he alledgeth a place of the Adm. wherin yt is said Then the election vvas made by commen consent off the vvhole church To this answer I repâ—lied that it was his ouersight that he tooke the people which is but a parte of the church to be al one with the church which is the whole coÌ„teininge as well gouernours of the church as the people in which replie the D. crieth owte off manifest falsification Why so forsooth because I lefte owte this worde whole that is to saie because I spared hym and kepte backe a peece of his folie and that with disaduantage off that which I pretended to proue For the word church simply set downe doth comprehended as well the gouernours as the people howe much more doth it comprehend them when this worde whole is added And if it were falsely concluded off him against the Adm. that they would haue the ministers to be called allowed and placed off the people because they saide that the election was made by commen consent off the church how much more is yt falsely concluded of thes wordes off the Adm. the election vvas made by consente off the vvhole church Thus appeareth that the D. together with his diuinitie seemeth to haue loste his commen sense yt is time therfore to carie him owte off the schole to some other place iff peraduenture by some sharper discipline he might gather vpp him selfe againe In the same place also vpoÌ„ that I shewed that in proper speach the church and people differed hauing there declared that difference to be in that the church is the whole and the people a parte theroff â–ª this complainer off falsificatioÌ„ saithe that I seeme to seperate the people from the election of the ministers for that I will not haue the worde church in the Adm. comprehend the people which is manifestly againste that I set downe For I precisely reprehended hym for that vppon the worde church vsed off the Admon he woulde haue mainteined his false insinuation againste them that the election should perteine to the people onely consideringe that the word church cited off him was the vvhole and the people one parte and necessarily comprehended vnder it This is not onely falsifyinge but flat facynge Nowe to retourne backe I aske what he needed twife in this diuision in so many and greuous wordes complaine off corrupte dealinge seinge him selfe flatly affirmeth asmuch as I saie of him and otherwise caÌ„ not mainteine his cause The truth is that he absteined then from the wordes electinge and onely bycause he sawe he had nothinge to mainteine them which nowe by my replie he was driuen to put downe or els to forsake his cawse Wherin as he dissenteth from the trwth so he is driuen to haue a newe combat with him selfe in that he heere maketh yt indifferent and at the discretion of the church in tyme of persequution to make elections ether by one or by the multitude which is contrary to that he hath before in thes wordes Lastly in time of persequution when they haue no magistrate they be all equall nether is one bound to obey another by any ciuill lawe none hath cheiff and especiall care ouer the reste as magistrate to compell wherfore yt can not be otherwise then but that such offices should be chosen by common consente Where he alledgeth Zuing. and Bull. owt of place and contrary to the title of his chap. to proue the callinge of certeine by one Apostle because they be Euangelistes vvhich wee haue no vse off and for that I haue shewed that they both are clearly of this Iudgement that the minister owght to be chosen with consent off the church I will not much busie my selfe with this matter But althowgh the Apostles did send thes Euangelistes off their Embassages to knowe howe the churches did and such lyke thinges as required no tariance nor execution off any set ministrie in the churches wherunto they where sent yet that they euer set them to rule any congregation by their priuate autoritie is not to be estemed wheroff this is an apparant reason that Timothe was not set ouer the church off Ephesus by Saint Paule onely seinge that Paule confesseth that he receiued imposition off handes by the eldership Thother also here mentioned beinge Euangelistes it is like the order vsed in one was in thother Nether doo the wordes I lefte the at Creta proue it for he doth not saie that he ordeined him and if he had yet it muste be vnderstanded that he did ordeine him as he had doone in other churches with consente off the church And that this is not my iudgement yt maie appeare by that I haue alledged owt off Caluine and Musculus in the former booke aÌ„d Bez. in this nether could Bull. be thought to haue here such meaniÌ„g as the D. giueth him that the Apostles alone should sett ouer the churches ministers as appeareth by that I haue alledged So that onles he will make Bullinger contrary vnto him selffe thes wordes that Paule and Peter called certeine can not be vnderstanded off placinge them ouer any congregation no further then being cheife in that action they directed the iudgemeÌ„t of the churches there remaineth zuinglius which I meruaile the D. will charge me with seinge he himselffe will not stande to him in the place which he hath alledged For that which he hath lefte owt off Mathias chosen by the vvhole church is directly againste that which he hath in diuers places before affirmed After many vaine wordes againste the replie vnto the places off Timothe as that it is against thauthoritie off learned writers against the whole course off
that I deale not equally which barre him off that authoritie that I haue sometimes vsed my selfe ▪ he owghte to remember that a foreine testimonie and witnes off an enemie is glorious and that I hauinge vvarre in thes questions off the discipline not onely vvith him but with the Papistes mighte with commendation strike the◠thinges with their owne sworde which he hauinge herin the same cause vvhich they haue can not doo That which is gathered off Ambroses election owte off Theodorete is moste vntrwe ▪ for yt is manifeste that Ambrose was chosen by the whole church off Mylane and neuer a vvord to proue that the Byshops had the righte off election but the contrarye by the wordes and circumstances off the storie And wheras vppon the bishoppes offer vnto the Emperour to appointe one the D. woulde make the intereste of election a runninge and walkinge righte firste as the emperours gaue vnto the bishoppes thinges vvhich vvere vnmeete for them so yt was no meruaile if the bishops sometimes offred vnto the Emperours that vvhich perteined not vnto them Which may well appeare there by the answere off the good Emperour which refused yt as a thinge vvhich he had not to doo with and vnmeete for him Secondly yt is very like that for the diuersities of iudgementes vvhich vvere emongeste the people the bishoppes perceiuinge that they shoulde run into displeasure off one off the parties woulde haue bene glad to shifte off that euill will and lay yt on the Emperour which was better hable to beare it last of all they offred the Emperour that which he willed them to doo which vvhen yt was to ordeine onely as the issue declared and not to chuse the churches election can be by no meanes preiudiced in that offer off the bishops As for Chrysostomes 3. booke de Sacerdotio besyde that I doubte not but if yt had any thinge of Valewe for yow yow would alledge yt yt is the same authoritie which Hosius alledgeth and alledgeth in grosse as the D. doth againste the churches election To the D. firste reason againste the churches election vvhich standeth in that there haue bene great contentions and diuersitie off myndes amongeste the churches I answer that the Apostles vvhen there fell a contention and a iarr amongest those off the church neuer entred into any such deliberation off cuttinge awaye the churches libertie contrariwise they estemed the neareste waie to heale vppe the breach to gyue them some thinge more in that election off Deacons then was ordinarie For where they were accustomed to shew the way in other elections and by ripenes off their iudgemente helpe the weaknes off the People there they suffring the church to goe before folowed with their approbation And not onely in respecte off that election but if a man will consider the vvhole estate off the primatiue church in the Apostles time it shall appeare plainly that if there were euer good cause to take away the churches election throwgh contentions and diuersities off mindes that was in the Apostles times For the churches off God then almoste throwghowt the world standinge of Iewes and gentils and there beinge such a naturall hate betweene those two peoples as vvhatsoeuer the one woulde the other commenly vvoulde not and contrarywise if the Apostles had iudged that for reason vvhich the D. estemeth highe vvisdome they shoulde neuer haue permitted any election vnto the churches For albeit the knittinge off both those peoples into one profession off the gospell did mortefy that deadly hatred which was naturally in thē yet notwithstandinge yt appeareth by diuers places off the scripture that there vvere such remnantes off that hatred lefte that nether the Apostles them selues which were so vvise peace makers and so kunninge tiers off loue knotes nor yet the ministers and elders which had receiued the firste fruictes off the spirite off God coulde kepe them from moste daungerous contencions And Maister Zuinglius off vvhom the D. woulde seeme to receiue some succour in this cause euen when their churches were moste dangerously infected with Anabaptistry and many nourished it in wardly vvhich durste not vtter it openly teacheth that this forme off choise by the churche was to be kepte Nether is it to bee passed by that Basil noteth that one Anthimus in choosinge a bishop withowt the churches voices filled all Armenia vvith sedition Whervnto add the testimonie off Chrysostome where he askinge vvhy Peter communicated the election vvithe the Disciples answereth leste the matter shoulde be tourned into a bravvle and haue fallen to a contention When he assigneth the cause off contention cleane contrarie to the D. that the election was not communicated with the church Secondarily iff the churches elections shoulde be taken awaie because off cōtentions which happen in them Monarchies which oft haue declyned into tyrānie and bene abused to oppression off the subiectes shoulde haue had an ende long a goe and other such moste lawfull and necessarie aides off this present life owghte to be taken awaie as those which are abused And to come to ecclesiasticall affaires councelles by the D. reason owght to haue no place in the churches off Christe off which it is saide that there was neuer seen good issue of them and that throwgh merueilous ambition and desyre off contention in them thinges ovvte off order vvere not remedied but made vvorse Thirdly the examples off the contentions which the D. hath heaped vpp to gether beside that they are in parte not off the churche with yt selfe but off the church with hererickes which is her commendation as in the election off Ambrose beside that also it is noted specially that the people off Alexandria was off a Mutinous and stirring nature and therfore vniustly obiected againste the whole estate of the church beside this I saie thes examples alledged by the Answ are so farre from weakeninge the churches election that they make yt stronger For notwithstandinge those contentions had vnder bothe Christian magistrates and Bishops there was not onely no counseill taken to barre the churches off their election but were as hath bene shewed councells from time to time to ratifie yt And if the Emperours and Bishops had not thowght yt necessary that the churches shoulde haue intereste in their elections or had thowght as the D. that bothe the churches were put in hasarde of false teachers and the commenwealth off vprores by reason off popular elections yt had bene greate folie or madnes rather to haue suffred that which they mighte haue so easelie remedied Which opinion off the necessitie off the churches interest as yt hath appeared by diuers examples before alledged so maie it clearly be seene in the letters off the good Emperour Constantine to the Cytisens off Nicomedia which althowghe they had chosen to his great greife one Eusebius Bishop dooth not therfore take awaie the election from them but moueth to a newe And albeit they had abused their righte in
chusing such a one as was an Arian a runnigate from his former bishoppricke a railer of the Emperour yet he confesseth still that yt belonged vnto them to make a hewe election Fourthly what will he say to that that the people bridled the rage of the scribes and pharises againste the truth and ministers theroff in that they were a fraide off them that the Bishop off the church being an Arrian the people haue bene for the most parte Catholike That also the Emperour hath displaced the catholike bishop chosen by the church ād placed an Arian Which disorders beinge often cōmitted by the Bishops maie by the D. rule as well depriue them of their intereste in ordering and confirming as the people in chosing What also that the euill disposition off the people hath for the moste parte proceded off the mouing off their euill gouernours So that people diuers times good when the rulers were naughte hath bene seldome naughte whē their gouernours were good besides all this there are other faultes off Symonie off choise off moste dissolute and most vnlearned ministers wherwith the sole election off the bishops is so infamous and the churches election scarsly to be touched with that many contentions off the people woulde drawe les blould off the churche then the choise onely off one suche blinde and lame minister as many off the assemblies off the bishoppes for that purpose sende forthe by whole armies Laste all as in other reasons before I haue shewed that the D. defendinge the same cause which the Papistes vseth the very selfe same armour bournished by the names off Zuinglius Caluin Beza c. so here he hath the very selfe same reason which the Papistes vsed for the bishoppes sole election wherunto Caluin maketh answer For vnto the Papistes sayinge that the people were shut forthe because off the contentions and tumultes which happened often times he answereth confessing there were such motions and sturres but that the taking awaie off the churches electiō was browght in for a remedy against those sturres he affirmeth to be a plaine lie and sheweth that there were other waies to meete with those disorders as to punishe them which should moue any tumult And so goeth forward in shewinge the trewe cawse off the falling awaie off this libertie from the churche To all the reste off his reasons I haue answered before at large sauinge that he hath embossed owte this laste with a sentence off Chrysostome vpon Iohn drawen from Hosius who vseth this testimonie againste the election of the churche Where both Hosius and the Ans shoulde haue learned to haue put a difference betwene a confused multitude and the church off god For I woulde aske off Hosius howe shamles so euer he be whether he dare define the church off God which is the spouse and body off Christe to be a certeine thinge full off tumulte and sturres consistinge ad rashly compacted for the moste parte of folie c. and yet ether the answer is not afraied to saie that this is the difinition that is to saie the very nature and vnchangeable propertie of the church off God or els if he vnderstand yt of some other companie he hath saide nothinge againste the election off the church And verely I can not see howe he coulde speake more vilely of the moste disordred rowte off moste godles people then he semeth to doo off that assemblie vvhich beinge indewed with the wisdome of the moste higheste he calleth a thing consistinge off folies and which beinge the piller off trewth he lykeneth vnto waues off the sea By which symilitude the scripture setteth forthe the estate of the reprobate or at leaste off the wicked vvhich haue as yet no societie with our Sauiour Therfore to conclude seinge that the election off the churche in her ministers hath grounde owt off the worde off God both in commaundement and continuall practise both in the olde Testamente and in the newe consydering also it hath allowance off commen reason the approbacion off all times after the Apostles as longe as ther was any sinceritie in peace and perquution both by councells and Emperours decrees both by godly writers ancient and off our time and considering he hath not so much as browghte an example to the contrarie owte off any auror and if he coulde yet the same is condemned not onely by the worde off god but by continuall good harmonie off councells one in the necke of another diuers 100 yeares and forasmuch as the Ans hathe this question of election by the bishope onely commen with the Papistes and hathe had both sworde and buckler ministred him owte off the moste grosseste Papistes I conclude that both the church owghte to haue her consente in the election off her ministers and that the sole autoritie off bishops creating ministers is vnlawfull Vnto this question off election and ordination belongeth the 2. chapter of the 4. tract of ceremonies in ordeining off which the 2. Diuision beinge answered and the first and third vnworthy of answer there remaineth onely the fowrth Againste that he alledgeth that the bishop mighte as well say receiue the holy goste to the ministers made by him as to vse the wordes off the Lordes supper I replied that there was a commaundement for the one and not for the other wherunto he saith that there is no speciall commaundement Which is no answer For if the generall commaundement off kepinge that whole institution doo comprehende this beinge aparte theroff then the argument standeth That he bringeth off the minister sayinge withowt inconuenience This is my bodie and in recitall off the commaundementes thow shalte haue no other god but me is nothing worthe seinge the inconuenience is taken away by preface off God spake thes vvordes Christe tooke bread c. The place of Timothe vvith Maister Caluins expositiō is vtterly impertinent For it is not question whether God doth gyue his giftes to them which he calleth or no but vvhether he giueth them by this means of sayinge receiue c. where he saith that the Apostels when they laide on their hands likely vsed thes wordes it is vntrwe considering that Saincte Luke pursuing the leste of those ceremonies which were vsed made no mencion off it being in the D. iudgement worthiest off all other to be followed And if they had vsed yt yet yt folowed not that the bishops maie doo it considering that it was proper onely to the Apostles to giue the giftes off the holy goste by layinge on off handes Where he saith that Christe commaundinge the sea to be quiet and breathing vppon his disciples confirmed his diuinitie I answer that he did the same in commaunding to receiue the holy goste which otherwise he woulde haue praied for as at other times when he gaue testimonie off his humanitie Caluin althowgh he vse not the same example yet vseth the like when he compareth the imitation off thes wordes receiue the holy goste with those being saide
about An. 266. had no authoritie but was a poore Bishop vnder persequnting Emperours And if the Emperours had been Christian then as they were heathen yet how cometh yt to passe he doth not vnderstand that in going about to make men belieue that the Bishop off Rome at that tyme had authoritye to limite dioceses parishes c. in the church off God he setteth vpp a Pope and armeth him with that authoritie which he neuer came vnto foure hundreth yeares after Finally if this Monke were off any credite he is directly against him euen in this cawse For off the wordes before alledged yt is cleare that he appointed vnto euery elder a seuerall parish vvherin he should keepe him selfe which is against the pluralitie off benefices that he so greatly striueth for He asketh where it appeareth that the scripture deuided nationall churches into congregations and parishes I answer that off that the scripture willeth elders to be chosen for euery competent congregation and particular bodie off church and also that thes assemblies as all other thinges in the church should be with the greatest conuenience so that as Ierusalem had commendation in hauing her building knit closely together euen so the church as much as may be conueniently should haue her partes not onely in a spirituall bond off charitie but in neighbourhood of dwellinges well trussed one with an other yt is apparant that although the scriture doth not mention parishes nor precisely define off the compasse yet yt giueth the rule wherby they are squared owt For when a parish well bounded is nothing els but a nomber of those families which dwelling neere together may haue a commodious resort and the assemblies off the churches owght so to be ranged as they may be neerest the place off their spirituall refection yt followeth that the scripture hathe after a sort gyuen the churches tarriers and that a parish well bounded for the spirituall intercommuning hath testimonie owt off the word off God. Where he asketh proofe off this that dioces is taken for a parish yt appeareth first that in the primitiue church bishops in steed that they are now off such a dioces were then of a parish afterward when they began to hooke into their possession moe churches then they were able to feed they were called bishoppes off dioceses ▪ yet the name parish was not quite worne owt but indifferently vsed for a dioces as appeareth by the councell of Ancyran where one translation hauing dioces thother hath parish And yt shall better appear in the 8. Tract that at the first there were dioceses off so narrow compas that diuers parishes in England may appear to be off greater circuit then they That the place off buriall mentioned off Euseb wat in the field may as I saied be gathered off the vse off the church which I haue noted in an other place That the churches of Christ had nether thē nor in the time that the D. imagineth any churchyardes ys manifest considering that then the temples wherunto the churchyardes were annexed were possessed off idolaters The answer to the incommodities off buriall in churchiardes that by that reason churches and other thinges must necessarily be remoued is a begging off that in question and otherwise insufficient For yt is in demaund wether it be conuenient and if it had been yet being not necessary it owght for such abuses to be taken away And beside the incommodities assigned it was as may appeare taken of the Papistes from the superstition off the heathen For Lycurgus made this law that men should burye in cyties and round about the temples Now residence being necessary and that principally for preaching off the word it appeareth how disordered a power yt is off the bishop off whose licence the pastor both chosen and ordeined must depend in a thing precisely commaunded to him by the Lord and for omitting wherof the thunderbolt of Gods course is from heauē throwen vpon him Therfore the chapter intitled Off licences to preach shall be heere in a word or two dispatched First the D. charged with false dealing in that he surmiseth of the Ad. as if one might preach withowt their approbation to whom yt apperteineth answereth their meaning is plaine belike he hath it by reuelation for in their wordes there is not a title sounding thar waies But he saith yt was their owne case which put from preaching would haue preached against the bishops will. Where leauing that to those that may haue knowledge therof I answer that he towcheth not the matter For both they speake ād my reply was of those which ordeined to preach the gospell are sent to their charges not able to doo their duties withowt further licence as if a man charged to doo a thing should be bound hand and foot of him that charged hym and layed at his mercy whether he wil lose him Wherunto he answeretth not a word Thirdly he laieth to my charge that I had not answered towching that the Adm. would haue preached against the bishops will a word wheroff is not found but onely in his latter book then which what greater dotage can there be as yf there could be default off answer whera there was no such thing obiected In that I saied vvithovvt their approbation to vvhom yt apperteineth he excepteth that there is an equiuocation yt being not set downe by whom the election should be made Where beside that yt was apparant before by a whole treatise what we think in that behalf and owt of place to speake off it heere his exception is too childish For to whomsoeuer thelection doth appertein this case remaineth the same whether it be vnlawfull to ordein one to preach the word and yet to keepe it still in his power whether he shall doo yt or no. Off this sort is that he saith I suppose no man may preach which hath not certein charge and onely in yt Wheroff although I make not heere one word off mention yet howsoeuer yt be taken this case remaineth one Where I shewed that the bishop could not alledge for defense that he vvhom he sendeth prisoner to his church is ether heritik or schismatick or suspected for that he ovvght not then to haue admitted hym vnto that ministery he vseth open falsehood For he saith I suppose that hypocrites schismatikes c. may be knowē forthwith or suspected may be by and by remoued Wheras first I haue not a word off Hypocrites and haue before manifestly tawght the contrary off that he heere forgeth that the church can not procede against Hypocrites that is those whose sinnes are not discouered and that God onely hath reserued their iudgement vnto him self Then where I shewe that those which are to be admitted to the ministery owgt to be free from suspicion off heresy or schisme the D. answereth as if I had saied that those which haue already bene in the ministery were vpon suspicion off heresy to be desposed Which what
as the worde off God remaineth if all men in the worlde woulde absolue them But let vs heare whether they be repriued by the iudgemente of these churches or whether they giue any pardon which gaue the condemnation There followeth that they allovve better off the harmeles symplicitie off some then off the exquisite learning off others ioyned vvithe pride And worthily For nether can pride agree withe manners off the minister off God and harmles symplicitie maie well agree with a competent learninge meete for that function In the ende they conclude that they reiecte not the good symplicitie of certein so they be not altogether vnskilful off God and his vvorde Firste this can make nothinge for excuse off our mynisters For when they are to learne their Catechisme and the principles off Christian Religion what knowledge is left vnto them off God and off his worde Then yt is like that by harmles symplicitie they meane some rare and singular holines wherby they goo as farre beyond the other in life as they come behinde them in learninge whiche all see to be otherwise in our ignorante ministers oftentimes the maisters off misrule to all the parishe Otherwise they knewe what Ierome saithe that in that S. Paule requireth that a bishop shoulde be vvise he barreth those vvhich vnder the name off symplicitie excuse the folie off mynisters Laste off all by that skill off God and off his worde they muste needes vnderstande suche giftes as are necessarie for a shepherd to feede his flocke whiche is habilitie to teache to exhorte to conuince the aduersarie and if he haue those althoughe he haue not the knowledge off tounges and artes in the name off God let him haue the chaire And suche I confesse our churche hathe had and hathe some but they are very rare and off thes I doubte not but the confession meaneth Nether can they be withowte manifeste iniurie thowghte to receiue those whiche they had before condemned for shall wee saie off them that with one mouthe yea with one breathe they blewe whout and kolde wheruppon I conclude that the condemnation beinge heere greater then the pardon and the wound wider then the plaister yow were verie neere driuen when yow were compelled to vse the testimonie off thes churches to couer the nakednes off the ignorante mynisters ▪ your notable slaunder off the Adm. I am contente shall as yow saie reste in the readers iudgmente That I haue gathered yowr argumente faithfully towchinge the learninge off Catechismes is shewed before There foloweth the 2. diuis the first being a blank where beside the causes by him assigned of want off able Ministers be to no pourpose considering that we shewe there can be no cause off instituting a reading ministery and be also owt off place considering that he shoulde haue opposed them to those which I alledged in that behalf that which onely was materiall that we be in cause off that fewnes is onely saied Where I alledged owt off S. Paul that yt is an expresse commaundement that a pastor should be able to teach and conuince gaynsayers and therfore to be broken vpon no occasion he answereth that S. Paul sheweth the qualities off a pastor but saieth not that we may not haue reading Pastors if there be none or not a sufficient nombre in whom all those qualities concur Then which what can be more bluntly saied For this being a generall rule he owght to haue shewed where the Lord gyueth leaue to take vnteaching mynisters contrary vnto the tenor off this commaundement which he is neuer able to doo For the scripture commaunding the pastors should be able to teach and conuince doth forthwith shutowt all other it being a generall rule that it both commaundeth the contrary off that it forbiddeth and forbiddeth the contrary off that yt commaundeth And there is no commaundement in the scripture which may not be eluded by the D. answer For thus yt may be sayed that we may haue images in churches to teach the ignorant for that although the lord forbid them yet he hath not saied that where there are none or not a sufficient numbre off able teachers we may not haue such supplies Those also which pressed with extreame hunger seeke remedy in stealing finde him their proctor For the lord hath not saied in so many wordes that one which is hungerbitten may not steale as much as will saue his life But when all commaundementes be generall in the scripture albeit they haue not alwaies the vniuersall note off All or None onles there be some exception declared this off the sufficiency off the pastor being not onely vniuersall but vniuersally propounded is better armed against all thes fond cauils For our sauiour declaring that euery one instructed as a scribe vnto the kingdome off God owght to be prouided aforehand with store off doctrine and iudgement to apply yt according to the present occasion doth gyue manifestly to vnderstand that no one may be receiued into the order off pastors which is not able to teach his flocke And the D. may as well say that in default of sober chast and quiet pastors they may chuse dronckards whoremongers swashbucklers as that in default off a teaching pastor they may take vnteaching Yea rather may he say the one then the other cōsidering that sobriety chastitie and quietnes are commen with him to all Christians but abilitie to teach and confute are his proper duties Therfore although thes be both vntollerable yet the church receiueth les harme by pastors which infected with 〈◊〉 doo teach then by them which free from thes are vtterly vnable to teach For the good life off the pastor withowt doctrine wherby they may be both tawght to put their trust in god and see the good workes they should follow is as a faire coulor withowt light to shewe yt by vtterly vnprofitable where the word truly preached shineth oftentimes clearer in the heartes then the clowde of the pastors disordered life cā stay the fruict of And albeit all commaundementes off God are such as may not for any cause be broken yet this S. Paul gyueth off the Pastor hath a speciall fense cast abowt yt wherby it might be kept in greater safety For the spirit of God foreseing this shamefull prophanation off the ministery together with the present daunger vnto the church vseth a preface to this description of the pastors office vsed rarely and but in matters of greatest stablenes saying yt is a certein doctrine As if he should say that which foloweth is an vnuariable and vnchangeable rule which can by no autoritie of men for any cause not onely be brokē but not so much as bowed or once vvrinched a side His reason that Paul was glad those preached which swarued frō that rule beside that I haue shewed it ridiculous is here owt of place cōsidering that thes readers which would haue rēt his heart in peeces being ordeined with breach off the rule off
God could not cheare him vp againe by preaching wherunto they are as fit as an oxe to flie Witnes the D. him selfe which addeth that our ignorant ministers may by study so profit in knowledge that they may be able priuately to exhort Where yt is merueilons to see how he fometh owt their shame whom he hath taken to his defense Yf he had saied that in time with study they might be able to preach yet forsomuche as while that grasse groweth the people perish his answer had bene vntollerable Now gyuing no further hope then that in time they will be able priuately to admonish which euery Christian owght to doo he hath gyuen sentence off them that they will neuer be able to doo the worcke off Pastors wheroff they beare the name that is that they will neuer be but idoles What they doo by reading is after to be seen The place of Osea which resecteth from the ministery those that haue not knâ—â—â—â—â—ge off the lawe becawse it failed a litle in the quotation he hath let quietly goe by Where he gyueth me the lie for that I ascribe vnto him this argument there must be reading in the church therfore ministers that can doo nothing but reade his wordes be thes I see not how yow can condemne reading ministers seing reading is necessary in the church let the reader iudge what a hard forehead he hath Where I concluded theruppon that euery one vvhich coulde breake bread distribute the cup c. should be a meet minister all see that it followeth vpon the former reason And this which the D. counteth a iest he is not able to answer in his greatest earnest His answer to the place off S. Iames is friuolous For his reason why the place off â— Luke commaunding the 12. disciples to preach can not be applied vnto our Ministers is for that other thinges ioyned with yt were temporall And this is his reason before that the example off the Apostels elections is to be followed wholy or not at all Therfore the place off S. Iames did fully confute his answer considering that the anointing of the sick coupled with praier by the elders off the church being temporall thother notwithstanding is perpetuall And this shift that that place was spoken off all ministers and thother off S Luke off the 12. onely will not couer his shame For what wil he say vnto the rules gyuen as the same tyme that they should be symple in their ministery as doues vvise as serpentes take heed off men are they not spoken to the ministers now becawse they were spoken then to the 12. onely What vnto that our Sauiour Christ commaunded to goe into all the world teaching and baptizing in the name off the Father Sonne and Holy Ghost which place shaketh hym owt of both his ragges for that was spoken to the eleuen Apostels onely and the coÌ„maundement off going into all the world was temporall Yet I thincke he dare not deny but the commaundement off baptizing in the name off Father Sonne and holy Ghost is perpetuall and belonging vnto all Pastors Wheruppon followeth that the place off S. Luke standeth still to whip owt vnpreaching Pastors In the pag. 483. this is handled againe Where I alledge that they be vnchangeable lavves 〈◊〉 God that he should not be minister off the church vvhich can not teach nor Minister Sacramentes vvhich can not preach the D. leauing the first which was the very cause shppeth to the second which is handled in an other Tract as that wherin his prouision was better Howbeit because I would not the D. cause should leese her aduantage by his ouersight I confesse that Chrysostomes testimonie may seeme to perteine to the cause in hand forasmuch as he maketh a kinde off preisthood not able to teach To whom with this exception that I will not be pressed with his autoritie further then he bringeth reason off the word off God I answer that as the word preisthood is often times in ecclesiasticall writers taken for the pastor and cheif minister off the church off which our present question is so sometime yt is taken for the elders ioined as helpers in gouernement vnto the pastor and whiche had not as shall appeare to doo doythe the preaching off the word and administration off the Sacramentes As when yt is saied that the Bishop chosen by Gods ordinance and the Elders ioyned vvith hym in the priestly honour According vnto which sense Chrysostomes saying maketh nothing to this question For we deny not but that he may be an elder and coÌ„sequently as they terme him a preist assistant to the pastor which is not able to preach but that he may be the pastor we vtterly deny So remaineth onely against vs in Chrysost testimonie that he may baptize that can not preach which with the rest perteining to that head shal god willing be in their proper place answered As for the 5. 1. Tim. towching the Elders which rule well in the treatise off the Presbytery yt shall appeare that it is not vnderstanded off these caterpillers where he requireth warrant off the word of God for that I confesse the church may appoint for a reader onely some graue man he confessing yt lawfull as well as I for answer to his request I refer him to that disputation where I haue proued that it is not lawfull to place any thing in the church not iustified by the word That the cavvse off this fevvnes off able ministers is partly the thrusting ovvt off those vvhich are fyt to teach partly that others fyt are not sought after it is manifest Whether they owght to be sought after and not to offer them selues I leaue to be estemed off that which is written in this point in the booke intituled off the discipline c. Whether they be off right thrust owt I leaue to be iudged off the discours off these controuersies whether they which are not yet entred haue iust cawse to forbeare I leaue to be considered off the disputation before and off that of the Archebishop Archedeacons Commissaries c. which followeth For if it fall owt that the calling be vnlawfull wherby the entrance should be made and the autoritie of the church tirantes such that being entred one can not walke in the way off his ministery prescribed off the lord then it must followe that although those that are entred hauing testimony off their conscience that they serue the lorde and keping themselues from the pollutions may poursue their course yet thes can not withowt shipwracke off conscience I speake off ordinary callinges euen in the very port or euer they launche forth commit them selues to this viage Where he saith there want no prouokinges to drawe them to the mynistery euen that is an other cawse off this scarcety for the church-liuinges so vnequally deuided that some fewe being druncken the moste hunger discourage from that study For the parent which followeth the sente off
honour and gaine in Archbishoprickes bishoprickes and other such poisons off the ministery is oftentimes beaten backe by dispaire that they shall not atteine to that gaine which desired as they thincke off many can be obteined but off few He that is willing his sonne should serue in the estate off a Minister and looketh with a more single eye to the continuence off true religion vnto his posterity yet when he considereth how fewe liuinges there be those excepted wherwith he will not haue his sonne desiled able to mainteine the pastor with his competent howsehold honestly he applieth hym to an other trade of life Wheroff although occasion be gyuen by horrible vnthankefullnes off men which in steed off gyuing some thing into the treasury off the churche haue by their pillage browght her almoste to starck beggery yet that parent shoulde consider that the lord will neuer leaue nor forsake his and that gould and syluer is the Lordes Which seing he fournished to those that in symplicity sought the building off his howse owt off the cofres off heathen Princes he will much les suffer them to want necessaries vnder godly and Christian But this place is plentifully handled in the foresaide booke off discâ—pâ—â—ne I onely because the question was heere off the cause off wâ—nting sufficient pastors towched yt Heere the D. light estimation off the churches saluation and off preaching is notably discouered before he saied that thes reading pastors were taken for necessity now he teacheth that â—f there were sufficient pastors to supply the roumes yet the readers should kepe their places still Yf ye aske why lest forsooth they with their families should goe a begging Heere a whole church is sould for 30 peeces off siluer or rather as I may say for ould shooes For the D. weighing in his skiles whether yt is better that the church should vvant a preaching pastor vvhom God hath ordeined the principall instrument to saue his church by or that the reader vvith his familie should goe a begging hath found the sowlehealth off a whole church farr lighter then the bodely coÌ„modity of one reader with his familie Where he saith yt seemeth that I vvould haue the minister renant at will or by courtesie it is an vntrue surmise For I complaine that thes reading Ministers were not onely placed vntill other might be gotten but had a free hould wherby the sheep are not onely committed to the woulf but the doore sparred also vpon them Where he asketh for the place in which Augustine calleth them woulues that teach not if he haue not the vvord vvoulf yet he speaketh to that effect when vpon the place off Ezechiel I haue gyuen the a vvatchman c. he proueth that he which holdeth his peace murthereth Which also euen the Pope himselfe as loÌ„g as there was but a sparcke of true knowledge confesseth Yf the D. say that his meÌ„ hold not their peace because they reade it is a cauill vnworthy answer As though when the Prophet calleth the rascall ministers off his time domme dogges and suche as could not not barcke his meaning vvere to charge them that they could not spell or reade in a booke off their owne language laied before them And so I trust appeareth that this taile off reading ministers owght to be cut of and that they are none off these princely giftes which our Sauiour Christ ascended into heauen sendeth vnto his church but the bishops to speake no grieuous lier off them more then beggerly presentes But we are not yet at an end For that which the D. can not get in comparing a preaching pastor with a keading he thincketh to obtein in comparing reading with preaching wherunto perremeth his 13 Tract First he mainteineth his vntrue accusation off the Adm. to wching their condemning off reading off scriptures Which in comparing the wordes alledged by the D. with those of the Ad. in ould time the vvord vvas preached novv it is supposed sufficient iff it be redd I commit vnto the readers iudgement And if his vnhonest realing were not euident there because off an other sentence off the Adm. subiect vnto reprehension yet he laieth yt open in the same behauiour to wardes me For althowgh I haue not a word against reading and diuers commendations of yt yet he feareth not with full throat to accuse me as a despiser off reading off the scriptures as companion off the Papistes vngodlines in that behalff Which although he doo often yet further then his reasons gyue occasion he shall neuer gaine off me that I will vouchesafe him a word off answer to all this owtcries After vpon that I say yf I may call hym mynister that can doo nothing but reade which is as indifferent to gyue him the name off a mynister as to take it from him being left betweene bothe the D. according to his ould equity concludeth that I signifie and that plainely how I esteme them for no ministers Which he likewise gathereth for that I say as they call them Wherin I will not deny but there may be occasion gyuen to hym especially that hunteth after yt off that surmise But my meaning was to note how vnworthy they are as off the office so off the name off a Minister off the gospell not to make voide their mynistery such as it is in administration off the Sacramentes which I confesse as in the Popish Preistes baptisme for that they be the publicke officers appointed therunto althowgh vnduely ministred to be the holy Sacramentes off Christ And that this was my meaning might easely haue bene gathered in that I allowing off the administration of Sacramentes by Heretickes so much worse then they as as it is to teach falsely then not to teach at all could by no equall interpretation be iudged to condemne the Sacramentes ministred by them Where I say that albeit the D. cavvse in this point be good that the reading off the scriptures is profitable yet as one be pitched he defileth yt in euill handling he answereth as though I confessed that I misliked the matter well handled onely for that yt was doone by hym which is a shameles vntruth Bucers sentence reading is a kinde off preaching I thincke will not be found and I dowbt not but the D. would haue brought yt if there had bene any So he is destitute off his good autoritie and withall remaineth the absurditie before assigned The sentence set downe owt off Bucer is altogether idle seing the profit off reading the scriptures both publickely and priuately is confessed Where to proue that reading is not so effectual as preaching I alledge S. Paul that one can not beleeue vvithovvt a preacher he answereth that by preaching there is ment all kinde off publishing the gospell by owtward voice but off reason off this exposition ether owt off scripture or any other more then his owne I say he bringeth not a lettre For that he addeth off taking away
absurdities laied vppon this foundacion as that the promesse off the assistance off gods spirit is as well gyuen to writers of homilies and their hearers as to studiers for sermons and those which heare them as if he had saied the Lord will giue testimonie to his word as wel by the meanes which mē haue deuised as that him self hath ordeined Likewise that sermons should be kept owt off the church as well as homilies if they should be shut owt because they are mennes interpretation considering that the preacher albeit he be a man yet in respect off his publicke ministery instituted and commaund of the Lord is as the angell off God yea as Christ him self which can not be saied off homily readers nor makers especially in that respect To that I alledge off the coustome off the Churches before our Sauiour Christes comming and after towching homilies not vsed in the church and that in such time vvhen there vvas greatest vse off them he answereth that the argument is of autoritie negatiuely where I leaue to the iudgement off the reader what likelihood there is that there were any homilies red in the church whē both holy and ecclesiasticall writers making mētiō of the forme of seruice of God in the church to the least and smallest ceremonies there is none diuers 100. yeares that ones vouchesafeth to mention homilies reading which the D. matcheth with preaching the highest seruice off God in his church Where he saith that I condemne thargument drawen off mennes autoritie yt is vntrue I said it constreineth not And I spake of it where yt is question off searching the truth off a matter wherin many easely deceiued none knoweth the full off it and not off reporting thinges doone in presence off him that writeth wherof he making profession to write can not withowt grosse ouersight passe by where he saith yt is an euill argument to conclude off a thing not doon that it shovld not be doon if the churches gouerned by the Prophetes and Apostles did it not it being put as a peece off the seruice off God and as the D. saith necessary ether they faulted in not vsing this meanes which is absurd or the D. which defendeth the vse off it He saith I can not but acknowledge one good sermon red to edify more then the Chalde paraphrastes so destitute off meanes to refute the reason I set downe why a short paraphrasis was meeter then homilies namely for that they approched nerer vnto the reading off the scripture vvhich is best he setteth his cause at my courtesie But if I graūt that he asketh he is nothing nerer onles he can proue that a learned homily is fitter then a learned paraphrase made now in this great light which the Chalde paraphrastes could not haue when they wrote So that although they expounding darckly according to the time they wrote in be not so fit now to reade as an homily yet yt standeth still that a pharaphrast is fitter to be red then an homily Where he saith I know that the Iewes haue thes paraphrastes yet red I shewed both by scripture ād otherwise that they had thē not openly red when there was greatest neede off them Yf they had them after when diuers corruptions were entred or now when they are the synagogue off Satan tha◠maketh rather for me They which tould hym that Ionathan was 42. yeares before our Sauiour Christ if they ment therby to confute that I set downe should haue gyuen him something to answer the autoritie I alledged Although he might be well 42. yearers before our Sauiour Christ and then too considering he was schoole fellow to Symeon off whom S. Luke maketh mention The testimonies off Denis and Clements Epistles red in the church to proue it vntrue which I affirmed off the churches practise towching reading off the scriptures alone after the Apostles tmes are in that respect idle considering that I onely shewed that that coustome continued after their tymes which were the best and purest Nether can the breaking off this order by some churches vppon some occasion let why it may not truly be saied both the coustome and practise Yf the Centuries coniecture were receiued that Denis epistles were red as Clementes yet that proueth not that they were red generally considering that Clements was red but in certeine churches But what if it be saied that they were red in those churches for that they were vntruly thowght of the Canon of the scripture Wherto serueth not onely that Denises were called Catholike but Clements weighty and wonderfull Likewise that Euseb esteeming Clement the canonicall translatour off the epist. to the Hebrues yt is not vnlike but he had that epistle in like estimation Last off all for that as he lightly reiected the true canonicall bookes off Saint Iames Iude and second off Saint Peter so he lightly held those for canonicall which were not yf I answer thus my coniecture hath better reason then yow yet shew and then the reading off these epistles helpeth yow not yow haue onely Soters which help nothing more being red onely at Corinth Howbeit it shall be sufficient answer that as other corruptions crept in then so the seed of this began to be sowen and that the credit which yowr cawse gaineth in that diuerse churches red them yt leeseth in that diuerse others receiued them not Likewise it maketh against him that the councell giueth no place vnto homilies but in extreme cases off sicknes c. off the minister where he maketh them the peoples ordinary food The councell as it were in a great drowght or snow when all is couered will haue the sheep holpen with this hard meat the D. will haue it their commen allowance Beside that it is the obiectiō which I myself im̄ediatly after preuented my answer wherunto the D. towcheth not but onely affirmeth it a good decree and no cawse off corruption which is grosse beggery considering that I shew how vppon occasion theroff in time came in the popish Legend and Gregories homilies which iustled owt the holy Bible Where I shewed that Bucers wordes secme counterfeit wherby he is browght exhorting to encrease the nomber off homilies when the Lord should blesse the realme with learned preachers forasmuch as there were then learned preachers able to make homilies which should haue exceded the volume of the Bible he answereth that there is no cause to suspect them but the reason he can not answer After he cyteth M Ridly but fondly for if the autority off all those which established that order be not able to make yt good much lesse his alone and being a party in this cawse he owght not albeit a singular mā be witnes Where I alledged the councell councell of Laodicea ordeining that nothing should be red in the church but the canonicall scripture he answereth the councell ment nothing vnder the name of holy scriptures which is an open and shamefull corruption for
cōmen wealthes and in the superiority which he hath ouer kinges and iudges he hath no superior but immediate autoritie vvith his father Therfore the mouldinge vpp off the two estates and gouernementes together is to lay the foundations off many errors Last of all admitting this distinctiō how cometh yt to passe that this poincte of his that there are manie archbishops in the owtward regiment off the church being that which is denied is lefte vvithowt any assistance off reason out off the scripture Here remaineth onely to proue the title Head off the church to belonge onely to our Sauiour Christe I muste therfore desyre the reader to tourne vnto the 6. diuis pag. 181. where the D. confesseth as much as I that Christe is onely the head of the church If Christe be onely head then that I set downe that the cyuill magistrate is head of the cōmonwealthe and not of the church standeth But if the magistrate be head off the church then Christe is not onelie Howbeit hauing for feare off the owtcry off all made a litle curtesie vnto the truthe he forth with lifteth vp his heele againste it and will haue the ciuill magistrate head also off the church wherupon muste followe infynite absurdities firste the doctrine off the Apostle is by this means cleane ouerthrowē which sheweth that this tytle Head of the church was gyuen to our Sau. Christe to lifte him aboue all powres rules and domyons ether in heauen or earth Where if this title belonge also vnto the cyuill magistrate then yt ys manifeste that there is a powre in earth vvherunto our Sauiour Christe is not in this pointe superior And by the same reason that he maie gyue the cyuill magistrate this title he maye gyue him also that he ys the fyrste begotten of all creatures the fyrste begotten off the dead yea the redemer of his people which he gouerneth For these all are a like gyuen vnto hym as dignities wherby he ys lyfted vp aboue all creatures And beside that the whole argumente off the Apostle in both places lead to shewe that this tytle Head off the church can not be saide of any creature yt ys confirmed by the demonstratiue article wherwith the Hebrewes esyecially whom Saint Paul folowed vse to tie that vvhich is verified off one vnto hym selfe alone For he saith he is the head as if he should saie he and none other is the heade of the church Againe if the church be the bodie of Christe ād of the cyuill magistrate yt shall haue two heades which being monsterous is to the great dishonor off Christe and his church So also shoulde come to passe that the church hauing the magistrate for head is accōplished and made a perfecte man without Christe so that the knittinge of our Sauiour Christe should not be an accomplishmente off that which lacked but an addition off that which is to much And if the churche be planted in a popular estate then forsomuch as all gouerne in commen and all haue autoritie all shall be head there and no body at all vvhich is another monster Now yf vve consider the cawses why our Sauiour Christe ys called the head of his church which are that as the head is the higheste parte in a man aboue which ther is none allwaies ioyned with the body so he ys the cheifest and highest in his churche inseperably knitte with yt and that as the head gyueth sense and mouing vnto all the bodye so he quickneth and to gether with vnderstanding of heauenly thinges gyueth strenght to walke therin I say when thes be the causes yt ys manifeste thes thinges nor no one off them ether agreing or hauing any possibilitie to agree with any creature in heauen or earth ether towards the whole church or towardes any partycular assembly that the name off the Head of the church can not be without great violence gyuen vnto any symple creature And yff yt be saied that the cyuill magistrate is a subordinate and mynisteriall head off the church as the magistrate beinge head off the commen wealthe hath other which maye be called vnder heades beneath hym he muste vnderstand that those heades are appoincted becawse the cheife magistrate can not be presente with the whole body off his people nor in his owne person performe the office of a head vnto them all But forasmuche as Christe is neuer seuered from his body nor from any parte off yt and is able and doth performe that wherfore he is called head vnto all his churche yt owghte not to seme strange that there may be a subordinate head in the commen wealth where there can be none in the church And as yt hath certaine grounde in the scripture that this tytle of head of the church is to highe to be gyuen vnto any man so hath yt bene confirmed from time to tyme by writers both olde and newe which haue had the honor off Christe in any conuenient estimation Let vs therfore see vvhether this ialousie ouer the title of head of the church not onely in respecte off the whole but in respecte also off a particular congregation haue their approbation Cyprian saith there is but one head off the church The bishop off Salsburie affirmeth the same Augustine proueth that the minister which baptiseth can not be the head off him which is baptized because Christe is the head off the vvhole church And in another place that Paule coulde not be head of the churches which he planted becawse Christe is head off the vvhole body which reason should be nothing worthe if ether Saint Paule or any other minister mighte be a ministery all head off the church vnder Christe And if the name of ministeriall head off the churches which Paule planted can not be gyuen vnto him which was a gouernour nexte and immediatly vnder Christe in that same kinde off gouernment in the which our Sauiour Christe is head that is to say spirituall no not then when there was no Christian magistrate to make chalenge vnto that title and to bring yt into dowbte whether yt belonged vnto S. Paule or to him yt can not be that the magistrate may take vnto him that title whose gouernmente doth not approche so nere vnto our Sauiour Christes as he is head off the church And as they haue taken awaye this tytle from the ministers ouer their flockes so haue they from Emperours and princes in regard off their subiectes Ambrose saith yt ys the greatest honor the Emperour can haue to be called sonne off the church and in the same Epistle a good Emperour is vvithin not aboue the chutch Caluin teacheth that there is but one onely head of the church vvhich is Christe that the name doth onely agree to him that in that name he can haue no substitute vpon earth Where yf yt be saide that he mente that off the Pope ouer all churches althowgh the disputation be directed againste the Pope yet his reasons are
officers bringe singular fruict vnto the commeÌ„ wealth For whilest they conquere by the word riote adultry couetousnes pride idlenes c. wherby diseases beggery translations off inheritance from the right heires needles dearthes seditions rebellions whereoff euery one is an engin able to pull downe the commen wealth they may be well called the horse and chariot of the coÌ„men wealth But yet as the pastors can not therfore be saied officers of the commeÌ„ wealth no more can the magistrate which by vertwe of his ciuill office giueth singular assistance vnto the churche be called properly the churche officer Yf as I see it like some to call magistrates a kind of officers in the churche because they being members by publike calling procure the quiet theroff they which are disposed may so speak I will not striue But why I esteme the title off head of the church not to agree vnto any simple creature etherin heauen or earth I haue shewed my reasons let the church Iudge The questioÌ„ is not whether the name of Archbishop is but whether it owght to be coÌ„tinued and if the coÌ„tinuance of it in our church draw such credit the putting downe of it in all other churches throwghowt ChristeÌ„dome must needes bring great preiudice But it is lawfull therin is the question Which althowgh he hath ofteÌ„ affirmed yet we are come to an end of the decisioÌ„ of this question by the scriptures and no word browght to confirme it Wherin ether he is litle beholding to his cawse which will minister him nothing to say or his cawse to him which leaueth it thus destitute For althowgh the reasons against yt should be insufficieÌ„t yet if he would haue this title continew in the church he should haue by shewing the lawfullnes of it owt of the word both perswaded those which haue an euill opinion of it and confirmed them which wauer For the sixt diuis let the Iudgement be the readers Before I come vnto the 7. I will for the cause alledged in the beginning off this treatise take in here the residue off the 20. off S. Math. Yowr transâ—ation the kinges off the Gentils wherby yow would prone that he putteth not a difference betwene the cyuil and ecclesiasticall power is faulty as that which withowt necessity goeth from the proper signification off the word For it signifieth naturally not the Gentils but symply any nation in which signification yt is taken oft in the ould and new testament and not onely when the Israelites are ioyned together with other nations but euen when the holy gost speaketh of the Iewes a part he calleth them by the same word here vsed Therfore it appeareth that there is nether any such meaning of the EuaÌ„gelistes and if there were yet he gaineth nothing For it is easy to answer that he therfore maketh mention off the Princes off the Gentils forasmuch as there was no King nor soueraigne ciuill principality amongest the Iewes Wheruppon our Sauiour was coÌ„pelled to take example off princely autority from the Gentils And if there were any small fragments of cyuill gouernement in the Iewes handes yt was the high priestes and other ecclesiasticall persons Which beside that yt was bastard and degenerate from the institution off God it was both more ambitiously sowght as may appeare by the ecclesiasticall stories and more tyranically administred as appeareth in scriptures then any the most disordered gouernement amongest the Heathen So that if our Sauiour would haue set forth a patron off ambition and tyranny in gouernment he needed not haue sowght it amongest the Gentils when he had it at home Yt may be saied further that he taking his example off the cyuill dominion off the Gentills would therby pull owt off the peoples heades that fond opinion amongest them and the rest off Iewes that they at the comming off the Messias should be Emperours off all the world and all the Gentills be their subiectes Especially considering this petition off the sonnes off Zebedy was grounded off that idlephansie And if neede required it were not hard to bring examples off diuers Kinges and principall magistrates amongest the Gentils which both came vnto their gouernement modestly and vsed yt with all equitie and commoditie off the subiectes as off the contrary part diuers off the Kinges amongest the Iewes whose entry hath not bene so honest nor gouernement so easy vpon which consyderations it may appeare that there was an other reason off making mention of the Gentils Math. 6. then in this place Last off all there is nothing answered to the example off our Sauiour Christ which doth manifestly ouethrow the D. interpretatioÌ„ For wheÌ„ as it is certeine that examples are browght to explane the rules which goe before and in the example our Sauiour Christ opposeth mynistring vnto others to this to be ministred vnto by others it must needes follow that the place which went before must be vnderstanded simply of domynion and not tyrannicall domynion for if the example had bene sitting vnto M. D. meaning he should haue saied as I came not tirannically to be ministred vnto or ambitiously to desyre it but modestly to rule The distinction also of the Magistrate and off the minister wherin the weight of this cawse lieth is not towched This diuision off domynion is altogether idle for it is plaine that when I say the cyuill Magistrate is seuered by bearing domynion from the ecclesiasticall person I ment lawfull and when as I deny that the ecclesiasticall person can exercise any domynion at all what place is there left to this diuision for what dominion soeuer he had proued to haue bene lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person had bene suffycient ouerthrow of that I set downe And as the diuision is superfluous so yt is vnskilfull For the two first partes the rule with oppression and the rule described 1. Sam. 8. be all one and the last member comprehendeth all that goe before And so it is not onely no good diuision but no diuision aâ— all Nether is he any happier in applying off it for where my second proposition was that the ecclesiasticall person is seuered from the cyuill by bearing domynion he saith that is true in the two fyrste significations Wherby muste follow that ether yt is lawfull for the cyuill magistrate to rule with oppression or els for the Bishop For if it be lawfull for nether of them theÌ„ one is not seuered from the other in those kindes off domynion The last section off the 62. page c. perteining altogether vnto the question off Bishopes bearing cyuill offices I will put ouer vnto the proper place Here the question is onely what belongeth to the mynister in respect off his ecclesiasticall ministery The autoritie off man in Gods cawse weigheth no further then weight is giuen by reason Therfore yow should not preiudice the exposition of this place by Bucers Iudgement especially coÌ„sidering it hath counterpois of other as learned Howbeit although
off this then falleth he from his conning distinction off hauing it ambitiously and by election For considering that Bernarde saith he is forbidden it and speaketh not there against the abuse but against the vse off dominion in a bishop it followeth that domynion nether falleth into a bishop in that he is a bishop nor can be receiued off him being offred off the cyuill Magistrate The reader therfore may see that the exposition yow follow off this place doth quite ouerthrowe the bishops answer ād openeth the Papistes mouth which he had stopped Yf this cawse should be tried by autoritie yow could gaine nothing Not onely Caluin Iewell with the auncient fathers which he alledgeth but Bulling Zuing. Gualter with a a nomber of others doo expound it as I haue doon and proue by those places off the Euangelistes in plaine wordes that there is no superioritie off one minister ouer an other and that with fuller wordes then Caluin vseth And euen the very same word Maioritie which yow say in the margent off the text is proued by these places Bullinger affirmeth to be ouertrowen by the same As for yow albeit yow pretend Musculus c. yet in very deed these answers which yow make are taken properly owt of Pigghius which hath all those corners reasons and shiftes almost word for word as yow haue cowched them here in this treatise I report me whether I haue spoken to the meaning or no yow haue mustered them by fyrst second third I will also answer them seuerally And to the first I answer that although our Saui. Christ saied not no man owght to be great amongest yow yet he saied as muche for when he saith the greatest shal be as the least he that is first as seruant to all he fetching downe the greatest to the least and making the cheiftie amongest them a seruice vnto them all taketh away all dominion off one ouer an other This reason I hauing answered before was vnneedfull to be here repeated so remaineth for him to proue that if our Sauiour Christ had ment to take away all domynion off the Apostles one ouer an other then he would haue saied no man owght to be great amongest yow and that there was no other way to giue owt this sense but this The second concludeth that our Sauiour had no meaning to take away superiours amongest Christians nothing to this question For no man denieth but there owght to be superiours As for that he interlaceth off Peter◠cheifty it is answered afterward The similitudes he vseth can not win his superioritie off one minister ouer an other For as for heauenly bodies althowgh one off them be more excellent then an other yet they exercise no dominion one ouer an other Therfore if it proue any thing it proueth that excellency off giftes amongest ecclesiasticall persons doth not lift them vp in autoritie and commaundement one ouer an other but onely maketh a differēce in order ād comelines Which we haue shewed in the beginning to be in ecclesiasticall mynistery where we willingly receiue order opposed to confusion refusing domynion opposed vnto subiection For the heauenly spirites what will yow alledge to proue that they haue domynion one ouer an other The place of the Ephesians thrones domynions principalities povvres if yow doo it is boldier then Augustine durst doo But if they be superiour one to an other that superioritie is answered in the church by superioritie off mynisters ouer the people If they be seuered in orders one from an other that is not denied to be in officers off the church If they exercise domynion one ouer an other that is expressed in commen wealthes So that if the Answ were able to proue all these which will be hard for him withowt Denyses dreames yet he may see they conclude not a domynion off one minister ouer an other The third reason likewise concludeth not against this cawse and to thes two reasons I answered at large Which if the Ans would haue taken away he owght to haue shewed that there can be no superioritie of one ouer an other in the church onles one minister be superior to another but that he passeth slily by and picketh a quarell vnto the examples To his exception against the first example that there is inequalitie amongest seruantes I answer there is none but by the maisters expresse appointement And therfore if he will haue aduantage theroff he muste proue that it is the Lordes ordinance that one minister shoulde rule ouer an other beside that it is enough to mainteine mine answer off equalitie off seruantes in a familie that it is so for the most part ād whē my meaning was of seruātes left in one and the same order yt is owt off time to alledge this exāple Secōdly the inequalitie there made is not of one steward ouer an other but ouer the familie which he ministreth vnto and therfore this similitude maketh to shew that one minister is not ruler ouer an other but euery minister ruler off his flock Thirdly that similitude off gouernement off the steward Math. 24. being propounded as a picture to set forth the rule off ministers ouer their flockes declareth not onely how there owght no gouernement to be erected in the church but by commaundment off God but also how far it owght to be from that absolute domynion or lordly pomp which the Answ would bring in which Musc a great man with the D. declareth when he saieth He speaketh after the commen faschion for this vvas the office of the principall seruant to gyue euery man his diet he vvas not appointed to be lord off others As for his exception against my other example of equalitie off brethren the inequalitie which the scripture maketh betwene the elder brother and the rest is nothing les then any rule or autoritie to commaund them but onely a reuerence which the younger owght to beare to the elder which we willingly graunt amongest the ministery that the younger men gyue place to the gray heares off the elder Thother preeminence off hauing two partes off the goodes wheroff the younger brethren had but one is no matter off inequalitie in autoritie wherof onely we speake wherin also we will not deny but one minister according to his charge off children may haue greater portion then other And both these exceptions are not taken against my allegation so muche as against the godly writers off our tyme Which to proue the equalitie of autoritie off the bishop off Rome with other bishops haue alledged that they called one an other brethren that they vvere fellovv seruantes Dominion here forbidden saith the Ans is not of one minister ouer an other but ouer the people wherin he is greatly deceiued For our Sau. Christ speaking to his 12. disciples according to S. Math. saith vvhosoeuer shall be great amongest yovv shall be yovvr minister and vvhosoeuer amongest yovv shall be fyrst shall be yovvr
and high priestes maketh mention off a band off men yt may appeare that as the seruantes and ministers belonged vnto the high Priestes and Scribes so the band belonged vnto those Capitaines off the temple and that they were there as those which had the charge off the band The same may yet appeare further by that where he laying hould off certein off the Apostles put them in prison after they came owt they confirmed them selues against their threates by that the fame thing was happened vnto them which was propheceyed of by Dauid and wheroff our Sauiour had experience in that both Iewes and Gentils and both powers cyuill and ecclesiasticall rose vp against him Wherby it is cleare they had regard to the owtrage which they suffred both off the Priestes and Scribes Iewes and of the Capitain off the temple a Gentill As for the cheif of the Sinagoge they are the same which be called Elders and Ancients off the church in reformed churches wheroff in euery Synagoge and assemblie off the Iewes there was some nombre as shall in place appeare called cheif not for that they had ouer the mynisters but becawse they had the gouernement off the people Whether the Seniors off the people were before the restoring off the captiuitie of Babylon shall appeare in place not to be much materiall Yt is a certein reason which is drawen from the figures to the thinges figured in this sort for if they were not like vnto them they shadow forth they should be no figures I apply not particularly the partes of the Arck to the partes of the church but compare generally the building off the one with the other Which point also S. Stephen and the Apostle to the Hebrues doo likewise presse Therfore thalledging off Caluin against thapplication off euery part thereof vnto the church is ydle The exceptions are to small pourpose For when I ask vvhat I deny not but some thinges might haue bene left for if he had would he might haue knowen that as the Lord aduanced his glory towardes his church and approched vnto men by knowledge of him selff so he did more precisely and particularly set forth all thinges perteining to the church and gouernement therof and that therfore vnder the gospell wherin he hath opened the threasures of knowledge yt must follow that he left thinges more cleare and certein then before Yet I will towch the vanitie off his exceptions For pinnes and nailes I would ask him how he can make a cofer without them especially for the water And therfore if he had prepared bordes c. and not set them together I thinck he had not obeied the voice of god and it is asmuch as if he should say that he was not bidden to take a nedle into his hande which is bidden to sew Whether the windowes were off glasse or Christall made not to pourpose so that they gaue a cleare light which the word Moses vseth signified it was enough Howsoeuer yow were misled by certein expositours the couer mentioned Gen. 8. is cmmaunded in the making off the Ark where the Lord also prescribeth yt should be a cubit aboue the Ark very fit to shut the waters that they should not fall continually vpon the Ark. The ouerseer and maister off this work coulde be no other then Noa at whose prescript yt was to be doon and which was to answer if any thing had bene doon otherwise then the commaundement The Rauen and doue sent forth were not thinges belonging to the building off the Ark and yet as meat and drink they are commaunded him forsomuch as they perteined to preseruation off his life which the Lord had gyuen him in charge That out of Pellicane and againe and againe out off Caluin are such as graunted conclude not against this cawse That the learned writers say God charged the Iewes with ceremonies of his owne that they should haue no leysure to vse any other they neuer vse it to proue that there is more libertie to the churche now then in times past to deuise any thing but it is their buckler which they hold owt against the Papistes who by example of that church would lode this now with such a multitude off ceremonies Therfore hē doth not in this allegorie follow their autoritie but rather clean contrary walketh herin in the Papistes steppes Which where they are pressed by this so diligent prescript off all thinges by the word of God in the ould people answere as the D. that that was doon for the rudenes off that people and because they were but children and that it were iniurie to the church off Christ to shut her vp so short as that was Where he cōcludeth of them that there was onely expressed what should be doon in the worship off God and not in externall policie first there be no such wordes wheruppon he may pull in that and not in the external policie And in deed it is not to distinguish but to pull in peeces for what whorship off God can there be in the assemblies of Christiā mē withowt the ministerie of the word withowt externall policie withowt administration of Sacramentes without praying openly and with owtward sound all vvhich are externall When Caluin calleth yt spirituall worship his meaning is nothingles then to oppose spirituall to all externall doon vvith mouth and other partee of the body but he calleth it spirituall by comparison off the worship of God vnder the law which consisted in corporall washinges cleansinges apparell c. and this is that which ether abuseth him or wherwith he would abuse other And although no singular partes off the Tabernacle or Temple themselues should set forth vnto vs the externall policie of the churches yet whē not onely they be described but yt is prescribed how many kinde of officers there should be and what euery one should doo that might suffise to proue that if he will needes separate the worship off God from thexternall policie yet as the Lord set forth the one so he left nothing vndescribed in the other Towching the alteration made by Salomon and Dauid in sorting the Ministers off the Temple and other thinges an other of the Papistes reasons to proue that they may ordein thinges beside the prescript off the word yt is answered in the same chap. the Ans alledgeth where yt is saied that all that was doon by commaundement of god And in an other place is set forth that those were instituted by commaundement of Dauid which had commaundement off God browght by the handes off Gad the seer and of Nathan the Prophet But seing the Ans vvill not accord vvith me in this point of appointing thinges vnder the law let him at least beare him self speak in his former booke God in the ould law prescribed vnto his people perfect and absolute lawes not onely morall and iudiciall but ceremoniall nether was there the least thing to be doon in the church omitted in the law Let him shew
how this vvill agree vvith that here in the tenth and 13. diuis I haue shewed that it is one thing to be conteined an other to be expressed in scripture Therfore if yowr cawse haue no better hould then that it must goe to the ground I haue shewed how this answer of leauing thinges to the order off the church varied by circumstance c. can not stand in the Archbishops case nor ordinary gouernement of the church The argument is not off lykes or payres but of the smaller vnto the great And although it should be true that yow say that the Lord loued the church then aswell as he doth now yet the reason is still of the les vnto the great For yf he did so particularly describe the offices not of such excellencie and vveight as the offices and mynisteries of the gospell yt must follow that he hath much more vsed that dyligence in particular description of the mynisteries hereof If the 4. off Iohn meane that our Sauiour should tell all thinges necessary to saluation then the Mynisterie vvith the degrees theroff being necessary and vvithowt the vvhich the Lord doth not ordinarily gyue any saluacion at all yt is cleare that he hath also declared all degrees thereoff That owt off Sainct Iohn 20. is spoken of the miracles our Sauiour did not off his doctrine and is thrust in by strong handes in this place The cheif amongest the rest off the Mynisters I might well with S. Paul call the pillers and therfore if the Lord should haue made no mention off the Archbishops they keping suche a place as they doo yt is truly saide that the pillers should haue bene forgotten Yf the Magistrate were an officer of the church and not of the commen wealth there are many places in scripture both ould and new that describe his office ād all that perteineth to him at large Wherof if the Ans can bring but one for his Archbishop this controuersie is at an end Here be many we knowes wherof some are not indebate and those vvhich be haue no causes annexed vvith them vvherby other might come to knowledge off them as vvell as he Yt is therfore enough to haue mentioned mine answer vvithout staying in confutation of all those thinges vvhich he at all aduentures throweth owt to make vp an answer He saith it is daungerous to say that the ministeries owght not to be reteined withowt which the church is fully builded becawse the Magistrate is therby shut forth as well as the Archbishop Our questiō is what ecclesiasticall ministeries are sufficient the mention therfore off the ciuil Magistrate is absurd Also it is too great ether ouersight or peruersenes not to vnderstand that an vniuersall rule is not to be racked to euery thing but is true off those thinges vvheroff it is gyuen Beside that hereby at vnawares he confesseth that the church may be fully builded and accomplished withowt a Christian Magistrate which is against that he saith the magistrate is the head of the church His exception that there is no perfection off vnitie off the church by reason off good and bad mingled first is nothing to this question secondly yt is a quarell not against me but S Paul vvhose wordes I vsed Thirdly as the ministeries off the vvord are saide to saue and bring vs to the kingdome off heauen becawse they gyue both entrance and aduancement therunto although vve come not to full possession off them so long as we being in this life need them still so they are vvell saied to bring vs to perfectiō of vnitie because hauing begun to knit vs together here they follow still vvith new increases vntill vve come to perfection in the life to come As for that there must be offices as well to preserue and kepe the perfection off vnitie as to build yt and bring it therunto beside that for shift off answer he is driuen as yt were with one breath to affirme that he denied before off the perfection of vnitie he must vnderstand that the church is alwaies in building as long at it is here vpon earth and alwaies in knitting Therfore if those offices be sufficent to build and knit they are perfectly sufficient and if tharchbishops office be to kepe the church builded and knit yt is manifest vve may spare him here and that his seruice must then begin when all other ministries take end The next diuis hath for answer according to the D. coustome onely that which I preuēting answered afterwad sauing that he addeth as an exceptiō that there be Apostles which there reckened are notwithstanding by vs shut owt from the present estate off this church as yf he vnderstood not that in the founding of the church thes may be necessarie which afterward are not which also being intreated off in an other place needeth not here to be repeated Yt is Calu. which reasoneth of the place of the Ephesiās that forsomuch as the Apostle saith that the church is fully builded withowt a Pope therfore there owght to be no Pope and how slenderly soeuer he seemeth to the Ans to haue reasoned yet shall yt appeare by the vanitie of his exceptiōs against it cōming afterward to be discussed that yt is weighty But where he saith albeit the argumēt be good against the Pope yet yt ys not so against the archbishop onles he can exempt hym by miracle or teach vs some other Logick then hath hitherto bene heard off the reason includeth him as well as the Pope For if it be graunted that the Popes office is therfore vnprofitable to the church becawse S. Paul made no mention off it in the ministeries requisite for the building theroff there being like wise no mention off the office off an Archbishop yt must theruppon follow that tharchbishop also is vnprofitable yf there be the same cawse there must follow the same effect The reason added off the Pope doing thinges which tharchbishop doth not claiming thinges which tharchbishop claimeth not c. hath no place at all for the question is not off the abuse and tyrannie off the Pope but whether as it is vnprofitable that one should gouerne all the churches in the world so yt be also that he should gouerne all in a whole prouince And by the D. answer the office off Pastors should be vnlawfull if they chalenge vnto them selues thinges vnlawfull and the Popes office good and lawfull if he bearing rule ouer all churches would absteine from those and such like chalenges which the Ans setteth downe The contrary wheroff is true For as the Pastors office can by no owtrage of him that exerciseth it be made vnlawfull so the vsage of dominion off one ouer all be yt neuer so moderate and qualified can neuer be lawfull Last of all the Archbishop him self if he should chalenge those thinges in his prouince which the Pope chalengeth ouer the world should be by this reason as vnlawfull an officer as the Pope
stand withowt him is not by any meanes conteined vnder S. Paules Pastor The proofes of yowr diuision of bishops into archbishops and those called by the commen name of bishops are as doubtfull as that wherfore they are brought To proue that the office off an Archbishop was in S. Paules tyme although the name were not is brought the word Consubstantiall ▪ which being the commen hooke off the Papistes to pull in their vnwrittē verities owght to serue the reader for a watch word that tharbishops office needing this phisick is sick off the same disease And for the word it self although it be lawful ād very conuenient and the councell off Syrme did not well in yealding vnto the Arrians to the displacing of it yet yt is not necessarie as withowt which the doctrine off the truth off the diuinitie off our Sauiour Christ can not be mainteined For to say so were to accuse the holy writers S. Iohn especially which debating that cawse against the heretickes of his time Cerinthus Ebion c. did neuer vse it But what is this vnto the Archbishop let vs haue but one testimonie owt off the word off God off the office off an Archbishop for the infinite testimonies off the diuinitie of the sonne of God and then this example may help yow And although the word Consubstantiall were not in S. Paules tyme Yet wordes off the same weight were If yow can shew therfore wordes of the same valew with Archbishop although yow shew not this yt shall be sufficiēt if yow can not then this example maketh against yow Here also is further to be obserued that this answer off the D. off the office of the archbishop being in the Apostles time although the name was not is the armour vvherewith the Popes title of vniuersall bishop is mainteined For this is Hardinges answer to the bishop that although the name of vniuersall bishop was not at the first gyuen to the Pope yet the autoritie was After he flieth to his ould refuge of the Prince and there seeketh couer for the Archbishop asking whether he shall haue no autoritie in the church becawse he was not in S. Paules tyme. Although S. Paul had saied that our Sauiour Christ had gyuen princes vnto his church immediatly after his ascension as he beareth vs in hand he gaue archbishops ether they must haue had autoritie then or neuer after So keeping yowr similitude if our Sauiour gaue Archbishops when he ascended and in S. Paules time ether they must haue had their autoritie then or neuer after And the case is nothing like for if there were no Christian Princes in the Apostles times they being needfull for preseruation off the churches the cawse was that it was not in the Apostles power to ordein Christian Princes But it was in their power to haue prouided the churches off Archbishops if they had bene needfull and therfore they had bene inexcusable for not appointing them seruing so greatly to the building off the church as we are borne in hand Moreouer the comparison is most vnfitly made seing the cyuill magistrate is a perpetuall office for all times persones places wheras by his owne confession the Archbisop is temporall and arbitrarie Where also he asketh whether the ciuill Magistrate shall not haue the cheif autoritie in gouerning the church because there ys no expresse mention off him in thes two places I answer that the Princes autoritie is established in other places so that it may florish withowt thes But the Archbishoprick seing yt ys an ecclesiasticall function ether must be planted by one off thes places or die in the church considering that there is no ecclesiasticall function which is not here set forth Yowr collection off my wordes is euill bound together for how cleaue thes Some offices instituted off God endured for a time therfore men may deuise new offices Where lieth the strenght of yowr argument Whether in this that becawse God instituted offices for a time therfore man may or in this that God did abrogate certein offices therfore man may institute Which soeuer yow say as yow must needes say one the absurditie is apparant for in both the comparison is made between the autoritie off God and thautoritie off man Betwene whom how great distance there is so great difference is there between yowr argument and a iust conclusion The cleane contrarie is gathered rather For as we reason against the Papistes that God did not abrogate his owne ceremonies that men should thrust in others considering that if he would haue had ceremonies he would haue taken off his owne so yt may be saied that God did not cut off his owne ministeries to make place for others and that if moe ministeries off preaching and gouerning iointly had bene necessarie beside Doctors and Pastors he would rather haue kept his owne then takē those vvhich men deuise Here all shiftes and coulors failing him and not being once able to lift at this reason he hath chaunged my argument For where I had saied yt forth in a plaine hypotheticall Syllogisme he hath altered yt But I will offer yt him againe yf vnder Saint Paules Pastor tharchbishop be comprehended then he is necessarie and commaunded by the vvord off God but yow say he is comprehended therfore he is commaunded and necessarie Which if it be true then yow are fallen from yowr distinction of thinges necessarie to saluacion and not necessarie off thinges arbitrarie and commaunded by the word off god But let vs see now yow haue prepared the argument after yowr owne fashion and as yow thowght yow could weld yt how yow deale with yt Yow say first this proposition Pastors are necessarie at all times is particular verily the masters by whom this should be iudged neuer tawght that an indefinite proposition in a necessarie matter is particular But because yow like not the forme which I vsed yow shall haue it after yowr owne in this sort All S. Paules Pastors are necessarie the Archbishop as yow say is one off S. Paules Pastors therfore he is necessarie Here if yow denie the first proposition yow haue the whole councell and Senate almost of learned men against yow affirming that those two Pastor ād Doctor are amōgest the rest perpetuall offices And if to be a perpetuall office be verified off the Pastor which S Paul speaketh of then it must be verified off all conteined vnderneath amongest whom yow say the Archbishop is Secondly the Archbishop being made one off the giftes which our Sauiour ascending sent vnto his church if yt were in the power off the church ether to establish or not to establish him yt should be in her power to refuse the giftes off Christ which if it be absurd that also must be wheroff this followeth Thirdly if the Archbishop be necessarie at any time which must needes be if he be comprehended vnder S. Paules Pastor then goeth to the grownd his cōmen refuge that his office may be instituted
away the infamy of this nether can it of that and if the auncieÌ„t traditioÌ„ of the church doo not autorise the one nether can auncieÌ„t coustome autorise the other The Ans before for one onely error touching rebaptising casteth away the vvhole councell of Carthage I will not deale so rowghly with the councell off Nice onely I desire that their autoritie be lifted vp no higher then yt hath state off the vvord off god Howbeit it must not be let goo in this canon off Nice vvhich is the ouerthrowe of all that the Ans hath said before that saying this vvas oulde coustome it confesseth therby that it vvas no ordinance of God vvheras if it came from S. Peter Paule c. they vvould haue said according to the institution off the Apostles it is also vvorthy to be obserued that the iurisdiction the Metrapolitanès had in their prouinces was before onely voluntary and vncoÌ„strained for that this was the firste time that any lawe passed of yt which noted off me in an other place is here well confirmed so that thes wordes the old coustome which the D. putteth so great affaince in if he make his accoÌ„pts well shall be found to haue bene a reed of Egypte vnto him wherupon he leaning is not staied but pricked To proue that the name off archbishop was not before the councell off Nice nor within three hundred yeares after the ascension off our Sauiour I shewe that there is no mention off him in Theophilus Ignatius Clemens Alexandrinus Iustine Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Origine Cyprian in the histories owt off which Eusebius gathereth his storie nor in Eusebius nor in a word in no alowed writer nether greeke nor latin within that space The D. asketh whether the councell off Nice Antioche Epiphanius c. be not as good all which are bothe later writers then those I alledged and after the 300. years before assigned So that to proue the antiquitie off the name off Archbishop and Metrapolitane he saith in effect yt is all one to alledge the stories and writers which came after as those which wente before and to proue that thes names were with in 300. yeares after Christ he alledgeth stories and other writers which testyfie thes titles to haue bene after 300. yeares which how absurde yt ys all men vnderstand And what likelihoode off trwth yt hath that thes names were within 300. yeares and od when as not one onely writer hauing so often occasion to speake off them doth once name them it may be considered partly of that the bishop writeth For as he asked Harding vvas there no man in the vvorld for the space off 600. yeares hable to expresse the name off vniuersall bishop So I aske the D. was there none in the world by the space off 300. yeares and od hable to expresse the metrapolitans name no man for the space almost of 400. yeares hable to expresse the archbishops name partly also I leaue yt to be considered off that I haue saied before Then he must vnderstand that as those stories and writers he alledgeth make nothing to proue that antiquitie which he supposeth so they being further from the Apostles times and nearer vnto the time off Antichrist are not off so good credit to proue the lawfullnes off that ether office or name as if they had had testimonie of the purer times moreouer off thes sixe autors which he maketh mention off two wroote after 400. yeares all the rest wrote from abowte 350. yeares vnto the prick off 400. And althowgh he hath browght owt so smale a number yet he must be faine to cut off halfe off them as those which make no mencion off the archbishop for nether Chrysostome nor Ierome no not Ambrose as shall appeare in their so great workes make any mencion off him Where I shewed that as the cedâ—â— off Liban can not be hydden amongeste the Box trees so the archbishop coulde not haue bene hydden in the ancient vvritinges amongest the other Mynisters and further that if he vvere he vvas contemned off them vvhich once vvoulde not defyle their pen by vvriting off him the Answ as thowghe thes perteined not to the matter vnder coulor of calling them frumpes passeth by them wheras a few such frumpes vvill breake the archbishops backe if they be not better looked vnto The Ans can neuer be holden in the railes off any lawfull forme off disputacion All men see that vvhatsoeuer he heapeth vp toucheth not my reply For he owght to improue the signification vvhich I haue set downe off the word Metrapolitan bishop which is to be nothing els then bishop of that cytie vvhich yt pleaseth the Emperour or Prince to make cheife and therfore that â—f the office swell no more then the name there is great differeÌ„ce betwene his and tharchbishops name This becawse he could not doo the signification being so cleare he starteth a syde and goeth abowte to proue that Metropolitane and Archbishop are taken for the same when the question is not here how they are taken but what the wordes signifie If he had shewed that the word metrapolitane bishop is as loftie in signification as the word archbishop then he had spoken to the pourpose Beside this in a matter that is in controuersie amongest writers he maketh his profes by bare autorities the controuersie being not onely betwene the Ciuiliâ—â—s and Canonistes but also betwene others off our tyme. Likewise it is to be obserued how cuill he hath peeced thes together bringing in M Caluin contrary vnto Maister Fox in that the one maketh a Metrapolitane and Archbishop to differ from a Patriarck the other maketh them all one M. Fox also to differ from himselfe which in the second place alledged out off him maketh difference betwene a metrapolitane and primate in the third maketh them all one Beside that also he is beside the forowgh off his cawse he gaineth not that vvhich he goeth abowght For let vs admit that a metrapolitane and Archbishop are taken for the same yet therof foloweth not that the name off an archbishop was in the church as soone as the name of Metrapolitane For althowgh a Prophet and a seer be all one astranger and an ennemie in war betokened one thing yet nether haue the wordes the same signification nether were they all at one time but came one after another For I would gladly know whether yt seeme vnto him that all thes titles Metrapolitane Archbishop Primat and Patriarch came in at a clap if there be no likehoode in this yt foloweth that his autors meaning is not that thes names were all at the councell off Nice but after they crepte into the church were attributed vnto one and the same office off metrapolitanship specified in that councell For the autoritie ouer other bishops which is gone abowte by this Nicene councell to be proued like to that of our archbishops that I make not vvith the Answ a confusion off all
the places harde by and lykewise a deacon three which together with their owne bishop should haue autoritie to heare and determine the causes in debate Now if for euery accusation of a bishop there were assembled 12. bishops at the least and that when the matter required haste for euerie accusation of an elder six and off a Deacon three beside their owne bishop and that those might be taken in places harde by all men maye vnderstande that there was more neighbourhood in bishops then is nowe and that yt behoued that those bishops dwelte within no greate compas which might be assembled with suche commoditie For if we shoulde imagine the same condition off bishops then which is nowe how euill aduised should the Councell haue bene to cawse so manie bishops to come so farre with so greate charges with suche longe absence from their churches with suche delaie and suspence off the purgation off them whose speedie dispatche stoode so greatly vpon the glorie off God and edification of their churches Herof yt may easely be seene that this blessing and gifte of God in hauing off a bishop rained not onely vpon greate cities and greate townes but euen ouer litle borowghes and villages where there was a sufficiente congregacion hable to mainteine this mynisterie off the worde And althowghe there be diuerse cawses why the aunciente stories doo not so often make mention of the bishopes of vplandishe townes as that in those tymes of persequution a nomber off them did scarcely yelde one sufficiente companie hable to mainteine the mynisterie off the worde and that by all likelihoode the countrey men rownde abowte made their resorte vnto the good townes nexte them which had a bishop and for that the stories for the moste parte keepe the memorie onely of the moste famous bishops which by godly policie off the churche were placed in the moste peopled townes yet notwithstanding yt ys not harde to shew diuers which are expressedly called bishops off small townes or villages As off one Zorâ—cus Bishop of the village of Coman of Mares Bishop of a small towne called Dolicha of Asclepius Bishop of a small towne in Africa and of others vvhich partly I haue alredy shewed owte off the testimonie off Ierome and partly shall be shewed God willing in discouse off Cyprians testimonies I leaue also to speake of Gregorie bishop of a small cytie called Nazâ—anzum of an other which was priest of the Castle Cumane that is Bishop both which are as well forbidden as to haue a bishop in a village I followeth to shewe vpon what cawses and by what meanes the churche so fruictfull in Bishops became afterwarde so baren wheroff albeit yt is moste certein that the principall cause was the wrathe off the lord who angrie with his churche sente suche a dearthe yet the doings off men which God had disposed of wisely for the accomplishement of his counsell towchinge the man of synne were partly vnaduised partly proceeding off ambicion and that not alwaies after one sorte but taking encrease and gathering strenght with the time So that the ambition which at the first was kepte in some awe and restraincte in the ende brake owte and shewed yt selfe as yt were bare faced In the Africane Councell yt appearethe that before a certeine lawe made of the Emperour whersoeuer aÌ„d in what diocese soeuer there was a churche off Donatistes conuerted vnto the Catholike churche that those proselytes and conuertes had a Bishop of their owne and the Councell there confessethe that they deserued so to haue Wherupon yt folowethe that how many churches so euer off the Donatistes were conuerted so manie Bishops at the leaste there might be in one onely diocese And if this were a good lawe and equall as the Councell confessethe what cause can be assigned why yt shoulde be taken awaie as appeareth yt vvas afterward In the second Councell of Carthage yt vvas decreed that those dioceses which had no bishops should haue none aÌ„d those which had should kepe their proper Bishop Notwithstanding if the number off the faithfull should encrease in that diocese that the people desyring a Bishop if the bishop of the diocese consented therunto might haue another bishop Now in that the Councell ordeined that there should be no bishops in that diocese where there had bene none yt is apparaÌ„te that their dioceses were not the tweÌ„tith parte so large as ours For is there any likelihoode consideringe the nomber off the bishops before proued that the Councell woulde decree that there should be no bishop within 30. or 40. myles as it is with vs And when it ordeineth that in that diocese where there was a bishop alredy the nomber of the faithfull encreasing there might be at the instance off the churches and consente of the bishop other bishops ordeined yt vttereth the cause vvhy diuerse parishes rounde abowte vvere the diocese of one bishop namely for that here and there in this aÌ„d that towne there vvas scarce gleaned owte a sufficient number off those which hauing giuen their names to the gospell were hable to make one sufficiente congregatioÌ„ to maintein the ministrie And therfore ordeined that wheÌ„ the harueste of the faithefull should be more plentifull in those places then also counsell might be taken off moe Bishops Wherupon vve may gather this to haue bene a cause of this scarcitie that it being lefte alwaies in the discretion off the Bishop vvhether he vvoulde haue any moe Bishops throwghe Ambicion yt came to passe that the nombre off Christians increasing they woulde not suffer the people to haue moe bishops but ordeining them Elders and Deacons together with the name off the Bishop reteined vnto them selues a greate parte off the autoritie and gouernement to other belongyng And this ys that vvhich that excellent Martir of God William Tindall shortly noted vvhen the multitude off Christians encreased and the church vvas endovved vvith greate possessioÌ„s the bishops made theÌ„ substitutes vvhich they called preistes and kept the name of Bishop vnto them selues And how vnhappely it was lefte in the Bishops choise ether to suffer another bishop to be instituted or no in his diocese maie appeare by this shameful ambition vvhich euen theÌ„ beganne to shew yt selfe For so far vvas yt that they vvoulde departe vvith any already gotten that they assaied to encroche and sometimes by stronge hande vpon the boundes off others as appeareth by the manifolde debates which they had one with another aboute their precinctes testified in the booke of Councells Another cause off this dearthe was an order taken amongest theÌ„ that where in Afrike there were greate swarmes of Donatiste heretikes and other straungers from the churches as euery Bishop gained those foreners vnto the churche so he enioyed them Which thinge extended not onely vnto euery ones owne diocese but also to other dioceses if the other Bishop were somewhat sluggishe in that behalfe which what a greate
prophanacion yt was of the giftes of God no man of any iudgement in the worde of God can be ignorante For semeth it a meete thing that for the blessing off God gyuen vnto their preaching they shoulde be made rulers off all those peoples which they gained And what differeth this from symonie but that as one selleth the giftes off the holy goste for monie so this made march andrise off them for honor and money both And verely hauing before a competente stocke in this poincte they did not so much get disciples vnto Christe as to them selues nor so much enlarge his kingdome as their owne not doo thoffice of pastors as of hirelinges and stâ—pendarie souldiers bente vpon the spoile Another cause off this scarcitie was that as they prouided that there should be no bishops where were none before so they decred that in dioceses where there were if after the deathe of the bishop the people of that church had rather yelde them selues subiecte vnto another bishop then chuse a newe that it shoulde be lawfull for them so to doo And theruppon yt is very like that diuers churches when good bishops beganne to be rarer then wedges of golde seing any one which behaued him selfe more tolerably yelded them selues vnto him Not muche vnlike those times off the Lordes indignacion which the Prophete speaketh of wherin a nomber of weomen laide holde off one man Beside that it is not vnlike but the stately pompe off bishops hauinge taken deepe roote the people did not vnwillingly quite the estate of a bishop and as off an euill neighbor and one which laie to heauy vpon them were glad to be rid off him yt might be also the peoples faulte which as our experience teachethe to muche rather then they woulde beat the charge of mainteining a sufficiente mynistrie off their owne were contente to yelde vp their priuiledge off hauing a bishop to receiue with abatement off their charges a mynistrie they cared not what Laste of all when Sathan had lifted vp the sonne of perdition into his feare and had made a full conqueste off all synceritie off religion yt was flatly decreed that yt should not be lawfull to ordeine any Bishop ether in villages or small cytie leste throwghe the multitude bishops should waxe vile as I haue alledged in the former booke Wherupon cometh here to be considered what ys answered that I be not coÌ„pelled there to renewe this question againe His answer is that I haue falstfied the place that I haue not redd the Epistle that yf I had hauing anie modestie I would neuer haue so written To let the reste goo and withal his vnworthy reproche so often repeated for saying Boniface to Zacharie in steade off Zachary to Boniface seing the quotation in the margent is right I say to let thes goe consider wherin I haue vsed falshoode Yâ— ys firste assigned in that where the wordes off the Epistle are leste the name off a Bishop shoulde vvax vile I saide leste they shoulde vvaxe vile throvvghe the multitude If I haue falsified in adding throvvgh the multitude what truth or faithe hathe the Answerer vsed in adding becawse the contemptiblenes off the place often tymes bringeth contempte off the person This addicion off wordes ys greater then mine and no more founde in the Epistle then mine whose interpretacion is more aggreable vnto the minde off the writer his that the daunger off contempte was conceiued by reason off the place ormine that it was by reason off the multitude let the reader iudge Which that he may he may the easelier doo let it be considered what Ierome writeth where speaking off the pride off the Deacons he assigneth the cawse that they were so much set by to haue bene their fewnes and the cawse why the Elders were so light made of becawse they were moe in nomber For the aboundance of any commoditie doth so commenly bring downe the price of it that there is no nation I thinck where it is not in prouerb that rare thinges are greatly esteemed as contrariwise thinges off excellent and necessarie vse are throwgh their multitude called vile Which is declared there by example of Poley a commen and vile herb in those countreis and yet for the rarenes more esteemed in India then pepper Of the other side where he saith they were not placed in villages â–ª or small cities because the smallnes of the place doth make the person often times contemned in steed that it is meet the bishop should be reuerenced by that reason there should be no minister of the word in those places at all For it behoueth that the minister also haue the reuerence of his people which becommeth the embassadour and steward off Christ and if the bishop looke for more he pricketh at a further marck then euer the word off God set vp But how cometh it to passe that the bishop off Canturbery is more esteemed then the bishop off London and he off Winchester then he off Norwich if the place cawse the estimacion of the Bishop When gentlemen and noblemen build their howses more commenly in small townes and more solitary places doth the Ans thinck that they lose any of their estimacion therby Also by this reason it owght to be forbidden that Iustices off Peace and Quorum shoulde dwell in countrey townes and commaunded to dwell onely in great townes lest they be contemned off the people But beside that it is contrary to the wisdome of God in the scripture the Paganes which neuer saw that light could tell that the places doo not make men honorable but men the places And Ierome saith the bishop off an obscure citie hath as much autoritie as he off the most famous If the D. aÌ„swer that it owght to be so but it is not throwgh the folie off certein yf that were graunted yet yt is vnmeet that the ministrie should be according to the euill disposition off certein for then forsomuch as yowth is subiect to contempt it shoulde be vnmeet to choose a young man of what giftes soeuer vnto the ministerie Thother falshoode the Ans chargeth me with is for that I gather off this canon that in times paste there were bishops in seuerall parishes and small townes when there was no bishop before off anie parishe yt semeth that his vnderstanding can not be so simple but that he maie perceiue if there were no other proofe that those canones made so often for the forbidding of ordeining of bishops in villages and small cities proceeded theroff that the churches in villages and small cyties had their bishops as other places had For to what pourpose doo they defende yt but that yt was vsed And wherfore was that lawe so often renewed vnles there had bene resistance and vnles the churches refused to subiecte themselues to suche a wicked order yf men make not lawes but vpoÌ„ erperience of thinges which they mislike how muche les doo they renew them againe and againe
off his fellowe bishops assembled in Councell saithe in this sorte but because our prouince is spred forthe larger and hathe bothe Numidia ād Mauritania ioyning he saith not my prouince but our prouince which is manifestly referred vnto all the bishops assembled as the course off the epistle declareth Nether dothe he there speake off any iurisdiction or ouersight which he had more then an other Bishop nether yet off two Mauritanias as the D. saieth but off one onely Yt appeareth therfore that the water where he drew this was trowbled and from whence soeuer he haue yt Eusebius is off more credite in that matter Who speaking of Cyprians large dominion shutteth him with in the precinctes of Carthage saying he vvas bishop of the parish vvhich vvas in Carthage And allthowgh it be cleare that Cyprian had no suche iurisdiction yet to th ende this vnfaithefull dealing maie better appeare let it be considered what was the estate off the churche in Africa aboute 150. yares after when there were Metrapolitanes which had ouersight ouer Prouinces and this weede of Ambitiō had spred yt self much further in the churche In the Councell of Africke yt appeareth that Aurelius which longe after succeded Cyprian in the churche of Carthage had not him selfe anie iurisdiction ouer ether Mauritania or Numidia for that as he was bishop off the firste seate off that prouince wherin Carthage was so Xantippus was Bishop of the firste in Numidia and Nicetius of the firste in Mauritania I omit that Mauritania was deuided from Carthage by sea so that contrary to the D. interpretacion men must haue passed the sea for decision off causes Wherby appeareth what a fable yt is that Cyprian was Metropolitane off those three prouinces when euerie one had a seuerall Metrapolitane Where he cyteth Gregory Nazianzene that Cyprian ruled not onely the church off Carthage but Afrike Spaine and almoste the whole easte partes yt is to be obserued that where the D. seeketh by sea and lande in euery corner for bishops of the largest spred and lōgest armes at the laste he hathe met with one which hathe more then he woulde gladly shoulde be knowen for otherwise why hathe he concealed the reste of Gregories sentence Why hath he cut of the feet off yt why hath he pared Nazianzens wordes Because I haue not the booke I will set it downe as the bishop of Salisbury hath doone Cyprian vvas a bishop the mightiest and noblest off all bishops For he had rule not onely ouer the churche off Carthage and Afrike vvhich vntill this daie is famous off him and by his meanes but ouer all the vveast and in a manner ouer all the East likevvise ouer bothe Northe and Southe Thus appeareth he hath in this place lefte owte both sowthe and North partes off the worlde and for that the Bishop turneth vveast he turneth Spaine where if he cōplaine of the bishops translatiō althowghe I dowbt not but the bishop had reason seing Hesperia is opposed vnto the East yet if it shoulde note any one seuerall countrey yt is like to note Italy For so Ierome writeth that they vsed in times paste to call Hesperiam Italy especially whē it ys vttered simply withowt addyng vtter most nowe all maie vnderstād that Gregories meaning was not that Cyprian vvas ruler off all churches in the worlde in that sense the D. meaneth and that he had autoritie off an archbishop ouer all churches in the world but that he was famous amongest all and sowght vnto for coūsaile frō all partes Wherby appeareth that the iurisdiction bishops had in times paste owte off their certeine congregacions was nothinge but a reuerent estimacion purchased by opiniō of singular learninge and godlines wherby others willingly woulde bothe aske and folowe their aduise in gouernement off their churches And if the D. vvil haue Cyprian archbishop and Metrapolitane ouer all thes places let him answer what shall becomme off his exposition wherby he woulde haue euery Archbishop in his prouince to haue peereles autoritie withowt controlemēt of any other Archbishop what off the Prouince of Italy ascribed vnto Cornelius what off that wherby he saithe none owghte to goe ouer sea for triall off cawses for althowghe we follow his vaine off interpretacion in all thes and for a bishop vnderstande an archbishop for a churche a Prouince for the particular place where the quarell riseth all that circuite which is not parted by sea yet this one assertion off his that Cypriane was Metrapolitane of almoste all the Easte VVeaste Northe and Sowthe ouerthroweth whatsoeuer hathe bene saide in anie off those poinctes For the wyde throate off Cyprians Archbishopricke hathe swallowed vp all the rest and made them all but Suffraganes and by this reckening not onely men must passe the sea but manie seas to haue ende off their cawses Laste off all iff yt be true he beareth vs in hande let him tell vs why the Bishop off Rome maie not haue a souueraintie ouer all churches aswell as he phansieth off the bishop off Carthage considering they are in the same and felowlike degree Therfore onles he will ouerthrowe all that euer he hathe gone aboute to establishe in this cause and onles in trauailinge with the Archbishop he will be deliuered off a Pope and a Pope off the largest cyse and longest laste he must be compelled whether he will or no to expounde this worde gouerned by consailed or excelled or some other worde as kolde and as vnconfortable to the office off a Metrapolitane or archbishop Why Illiricus calleth him metrapolitane I haue shewed He saithe I forget my selfe which call him in one place metropolitā they are selie contradictions allwaies which he chargeth me with For he might haue remembred that I said that this worde metropolitane doothe signifie nothing but bishop off the cheife Citie in which sense I can easely aforde Cyprian to be a Metrapolitane withowte any greate hinderance off my cawse or helpe off his I passe the nexte diu hauing nothing but importunate and shameles begging of thinges in controuersie As that Cornelius had a prouince vnder him that Cyprian was Metropolitane that the place off Cyprian is trwly expounded off an Archbishop that I gyue the Papistes aduantage in saying that the place maketh as muche for a Pope as an archbishop that is to saie nothing for ether Vnto the nexte I haue answered where I laied open the vanitie off his answer that writers passe by the title off archbishops sauing that it is to be noted that where the D. hathe before affirmed in plaine wordes that the name off Pope was commen to all bishops here to gyue some coulor vnto his answer he woulde make vs belieue that the name off Pope was commen not vnto all but to manie bishops c. what M. Fox saithe in that behalfe I referre yt to the reader That the name off Pope was commen to all bishops besides the testimonies I alledged before may be seene
heard off or it could not be doon conueniently without an archbishop by appointing one amongest them at euery off their Synodes who should haue autoritie to call the Synode following Which is likewise answer to his next reason of putting them in minde off their duties Al this may be seeÌ„ not onely by practise of reformed churches in diuers places Fraunce especially where Synodes are assembled from all partes of the realme twise a yeare notwithstanding al that dominioÌ„ of one minister ouer an other pulled vp by the rotes but also in the primitiue church by that recited of one Malchion Who being a simple Elder so far from the estate of aâ—â— Archbishop that he was not Bishop was president in the Councell off Antioch assembled against Samosatenus heresie If a simple Elder might gouerne the Bishops yt shall be to great shame for them not to suffer them selues to be gouerned for the time by one of their owne order withowt making an archbishop Wherby appeareth how vntollerable the D. is which condemneth this order as inconuenient confused disordered Where he saith it can not be but a great help that one haue cheif care of prescruacion of vnitie the office off an archbishop can put no further care for the church vpon any then the Lord putteth on hym by vertue off the office off bishop For if the gouernement off his owne church take not vp all his thowghtes and cares whatsoeuer is left is due vnto other churches by ordinance off the lord Forsomuche therfore as euery bishop in the Prouince by calling off God careth to the vttermost of his power for the churches wheruÌ„to he is associated and tharchbishop can doo no more then what lieth in his power it followeth that there can be no calling off men which can ad vnto his care for this vnitie If he saie that this institucion off men causeth the care coÌ„maunded off god the rather performed firste yt is vntrue for althowghe the ordinances off men maie gyue a prick to the doynge off thinges owtwarde yet they are not hable to moue the conscieÌ„ce and inwarde affections wheroff the care he speaketh off is a fruicte Then yf it had suche force as to awake his care yet that shoulde be with no aduantage vnto the churches of the Prounce forsomuche as that woulde giue occasion vnto other bishops off diminishing theirs whilest they phansie with them selues a streighter bonde to prouide for the vnitie off the churche in the archebishop then in them selues And so the care by this meanes reuiued in one shoulde die in a great nomber where he addeth as yt is in other societies yt hathe bene shewed that our Sauiour Christ forbad that rule off one minister ouer an other in the churche which maie be vsed in the common wealth Althowghe I haue answered further vnto this pointe where those societies are particularly specified Where he asketh what if the bishops were deuided amoÌ„gest them sel ues who should compounde their controuersies He hathe his answer that he may call them together in whose hande the laste Synode lefte that autoritie And what yf the archbishop him selfe draw owte off his trace and be ether deuided from all the bishops or from the better and sounder parte standing this goodly order who shall range him And when the D. saithe that tharchbishop can not deale for appeasing off controuersies but by persuasion and that composition which is made by intreatie off parties maie be made conueniently by equals what needethe there any superior archbishop How vntruly the Ans writeth off the archbishops and bishops autoritie in our church to hyde the hornes off their immoderate power both in this diuis and that before the eyes and eares off all men are witnes But as he serueth tharchbishops and bishops in this defense so for recompense off his paines he maketh them waite vpon him and hauing now set them on horseback by and by for shift of answer he maketh them light and goe a foote with their fellowes Cyprian saith the cause muste be heard vvhere the faulte vvas committed the D. that is to be vnderstanded of the Prouince or diocese as if it were not hearde within the prouince and diocese when yt is hearde within that particular churche where the controuersy groweth Therfore to make good his answer thus he must interprete thes wordes there vvhere the faulte vvas committed it shall be heard whersoeuer in the Prouince or diocese the faulte is committed yt must be hearde at the archbishops or bishops palace The firste interpretacion is coÌ„trarie to the proprietie of speache For seing matter rising in a particular church is saide properly to rise there where yt was doone and can not but improperly and by figure be saide to rise in the Prouince or diocese yt is manifest that Cyprian is made withowte any necessitie to sprake improperly As for the nexte interpretacion yt is cleane contrary to Cyprians meaning For when he will haue the matter there handled where they may haue bothe accusers and vvitnes that can be by no meanes vnderstoode off the Archbishops or bishops consistory For the parties haue not their witnesses aÌ„d accusers there whether they are coÌ„streined with greaate charges and longe iorneis to transporte them Where he saith Cyprian speaketh againste those which wente from Africk into Italie I preuented that shewing the reason is generall and seruing aswell againste those which will pull their causes vnto their hearing which dwell a 100. or 200. miles off them as againste those which carie them from one contrey to an other wherunto he answereth nothing For if there shoulde be a bare opposition betwene Africke and Rome and not rather betweene the place where the coÌ„trouersie riseth and that far of as lawfull as yt ys for him to say Cyprian meaneth not a particular churche where the cawse riseth but the diocese or Prouince so lawfull ys yt for me to saie that he meaneth nether diocese nor prouince but onely that quarter which makethe the fourth parte of the worlde So that by this meanes the cause rising in Mauritania maie be iudged in Aethiopia which is more then 10. times farther a sonder theÌ„ Rome froÌ„ Carthage And consequently yt should follow that any controuersy rising in the churche off Englande may be determined at Rome being a parte off Europe as at the place by his answer where the cause rose Where he saith there ys no Prouince with vs where bothe the accusers and witnesses may not be browght I graunt if they come and leaue their busines at home yf they die not by the way if the parties be able to beare their charges And with thes conditions they may be browght further And by this exposition off the Ans the triall made in passing the seas which the councell off Africk after forbad may be a great deale more commodious then the archbishops For they which dwell by the seaside may both with more ease and lesse charges haue end of their matters in
priest and bishop for the same Howbeit because the autor him selfe ys aliue and knoweth best what he meaneth I am well content the meaning off his wordes be such as him self shall beste like off Out off M Fox he can not finde so much as a fig leafe and therfore telleth vs how he saith Rome vvas a patriarchall church and therfofore not vnlike but Carthage was also how by a dioces is ment a Prouince and forsomuch as he allowed an archbishop yt is like he expounded Cyprians place of an archbishop The onely rehersall is too long a confutation In the end are recited at large the wordes of M. Philpot. which attributing vnto Cyprian a dioces declareth that he esteemed him a bishop not an archbishop For that he calleth him the Nouatians cheif Bishop yt is far from the estate of an archbishop He might well call him so in respect of his singular learning and pietie or in that he was bishop off the cheifest place in Afrik And the same may be saied off Cornelius being Patriarch For otherwise in autoritie he could not be seing him self confesseth that patriarches were appointed at the councell off Nice about 150. years after Albeit the truth is that the appointement of those 4. patriarchall seates was not by the Councell off Nice but off Calcedon Nether doth it follow that if Cornelius were a Pairiarch therfore he was Prince off many bishops onles he will say that becawse Tertullian calleth Philosophers Patriarches off Heretikes and Ierome Tacianus the Patriarch of Encratites therfore Philosophers and Tacianus bore dominion ouer the Heretikes or Encratites He might be so called in that he was cheif father of the church off Rome where he executed his office as Ierome witnesseth off the Iewes Rabbines to haue bene called Patriarches yet they had no gouernmēt or rule but in the seuerall Synagogues where they taught Now it appeareth the Ans can not bring so much as one seely testimony to proue this place of Cyprian vnderstood of tharchbishops or metropolitanes autoritie besides that alledged of Muscu flatly denying that Cyp. thowght of any Archbis or Metrop but onely of euery Bishop in his owne church I will ad the testimony of Bucer who affirmeth the very same that I. Shewing against the Pope that Christ onely is vniuersall bishop he assigneth this reason For he is present vvith his sheepe and vvith euery of them and feedeth thē vntill the end of the vvorlde and for this cavvse putteth ministers in his place and that to euery church her seuerall minister For he did not onely gyue Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes and ministers off many churches once but gyueth also daily vnto euery church off his her ministers Pastors and Doctors and both instructeth and leadeth them vvith his spirit that they may serue their ministries him self onely gyuing increase vnto their planting and vvatering For vnto euery one off them he hath appointed a proper portion off the flock as S. Cyprian testified by vvarrant off tradition off Christ and his Apostles and that vvith this condition and povver that euery one together vvith his presbyterie and Clergie should rule his vvhole flock as one vvhich should make account off his ovvne act not vnto the Pope off Rome but to the lord vvhich is the Prince of Pastors Amōgest vvhō no man might appoint him self bishop of bishops or iudge an other or be iudged of an other vvherupon the iudgemēt of the bishop belonged vnto Synodes not vnto one bishop as long as the policie off the church gyuen by thapostels stoode Therfore bishops vvere equall not onely in povver of the keies by vvhich fable Latomus vvould elude the place of Cyprian but also in vse and degree off povver and iurisdiction In the end shutting vp all that he had saied off the metropolitanes he saith This is the sentence off the catholike church concerning the povver of bishopes as vvell off Rome as others grounded on the vvord off God approued by canons obserued off all true bishops Wherin Bucer affirmeth that this portion off the flock which Cyprian speaketh off is the charge off euery minister in his seuerall church and that by institution off Christ and his Apostels no minister or bishop can haue an other bishop to iudge him but that if there be a fault in him it is to be iudged by Synodes Thus I leaue to the readers iudgement how it was more easie for the Ans to say the godliest and learnedest writers expound the place of Cyprian of an archbishop then to shew it when it cometh to proofe And althowgh he fall flat vnder the bourden vndertaken in his first booke yet as thowgh he had not half his lode he hath charged him self a fresh For where before he saied the godliest and learnedest expound this of an archbishop now he saith all learned writers expound it as he doth It were well there were some reasonable proportion betwene the toung and the hand for it can not be but a fowle fault to be so long tounged and so short handed Before I come to Ieromes testimonie the order off tymes for the better vnderstanding off this cause requireth that those bothe autorities and examples be answered which the Answerer hath alledged bothe before owte off the Councell off Nice and Antioche and after pa. 470. c. The nexte to the times off Cyprian is Dionysius Alexandrinus which saith he had vnder his iurisdictiō all the churches in Pentapolis as Athanasius testifieth in a certeine epistle Apolog 2. First there ys no suche thinge in all that booke nor in no epistle conteined therin The place he meaneth of is in an epistle he wrote concerning Dionysius iudgement againste the Arian heresie Then yt ys not saide as he reporteth that all the churches of Pentapolis were vnder his iurisdiction but onely that he had care of those churches or as the translators words be the care of those churches apperteined vnto him Which what litle or no weighte they haue to proue archiepiscopall iurisdictiō shall be seene when we come to the place where the sense of this to haue care ys discussed In the meane time yt is to be obserued for better triall of this matter which I haue before noted owte of Eusebius that he succeded in the bishoprick off Alexandria vnto his predecessor withowte attributing vnto hym any further charge And when as Euseb declareth that he writing vnto the churches in Egipte wrote vnto them by the bare name of the brethren vvhich vvere in Aegypte withowte any title betokening anie bonde or knot off mynisterie towardes them and off the other parte writing vnto the churches in Alexandria intitleth that writing an exhortation vnto his flocke he declareth euidently that he estemed Alexandria his proper charge and that sauing that bothe in respecte Aegypte was his contrey and the peace of his owne churche was folded vp in the welfare of yt his care for Aegipte was generall as for other churches And the very testimonie
whom there is any light off iudgement would say it is matter off storie vvhether the appointing off one in euery church ouer the rest is remedie againste heresie or no I◠perteineth to the storie that one was placed ouer the rest at such tyme and place as is set downe by Ierome likewise that the cawse that moued them to bring in this coustome was for preseruacion off peace and none off thes is denied but whether this cawse were well assigned and whether this supposed to preserue peace banished godly peace is the question If this be a matter off storie storie hath a larger kingdome then euer I heard off Yet this he doth as absurdly charge me with after in Iustines testimonie where likewise I denie no part off his storie Yf this be to discredite men to say their autoritie ovvght not to vveigh further then yt hath vveight ether off scripture or some reason grovvnded theroff then I haue discredited all writers from the Apostels time For by thes weightes I haue esteemed the best But I leaue to be cōsidered what a popish tyrānie he goeth abowt to bring into the church which lifteth the credit of any be he neuer so godly ād learned aboue that which I haue here alledged Where he saith I confound Monarchie with Tyrannie in that I ask whether the church be not in as great daunger when all is doon at the pleasure off one as when one pulleth one peece and an other an other yt is but a vaine shifting hole For althowgh thes wordes at the Pleasure and lust off one be for the moste part spoken by way off dispraise and I willingly confesse I vsed them becawse this Ecclesiasticall monarchie seldome or neuer deserueth better yet my wordes following declare that my comparison is betwene the Ecclesiasticall gouernement off one and off many not betwene one gouerning tyrannically and many moderatly For supposing that both the Archbishop and those which gouerne in commen be godly and catholike I affirme that he being one is sooner drawen into error then many sooner ouercaried with his affection then a godly companie In answer wherof and reasons wherwith this is confirmed the D. falleth flatly into that wherewith he chargeth me For in steed that he should haue marched many godly and learned ministers with one he matcheth him with the multitude and commē sort and in steed off comparing one ruling by law with many gouerning by the same he compareth him with a lawles companie and in steed off comparing a litle vvater with much of the same kinde he compareth a litle conduite water closed vp in lead with much fennish and muddy Which what leaden answers they be let the reader iudge For in this path of reasoning which he walketh in a man may proue it better to haue but one eye then two becawse some see better with one then other some with both His answer to that off preferring contention before vvicked peace that we haue the true doctrine and right administration of Sacramentes c. and therfore no contention is to be moued is as muche to the question as if he had answered off the wether For the question is not of the estate off our church but off all generally nor whether we haue the truth of doctrine c. but by what way yt ys best kept His answer to the similitude of fire stricken by flintes is more fond For I shewing by yt that contētion is better then wicked peace he answereth the fire stricken may be in suche a time that it may consume the whole countrey and that it is madnes to light a candell at noone daies As if the fire off the truth which I spake off and so called off our Sauiour can consume any thing but straw stuble c. or the Apostle were not glad that the truth came forth allthowgh by contention or it were noone day when the heauens thorowgh ignorāce ād errors are like an haircloth which is the time I spake of And where hauing shewed that tharchbishop is not fittest to kepe the church in possession off the truth I admit by way off disputation that he vvere the fittest adding that forsomuch as he hath as great force to kepe men in error vvhen they are fallen into it this in commoditie ovvght to driue vs to some other gouernement he answereth a monarchie being the worst kind of gouernement when it ruleth by affection ceasseth not to be lawfull when it ruleth by lawes Where first I refer the reader to that before that it is one thing off the forme off church gouernement an other of the commēt wealth which is answer to all thes slanderous speaches here repeted Secondly the church receiueth greater dammage by an Archbishop keping yt in error then the commen wealth by any outrage off tyrannie For there can be no tyrannie in the gouernement off the cōmen wealth so extreme wherin there is not somthing tending to preseruacion off it and consequently off the church But in the gouernement off an Archbishop fallen from the truth and in the swinge off his vncontrolled autoritie keping the truth vnder there is nothing but destruction and ruine withowt step or footing off the fauour off God towardes the vpholding off the church Seing therfore tyrannie in the commen wealth is not so great an ennemy vnto the commen wealth as a church tyrant vnto the truth there is better cawse to haue a Monarchie in the commen wealth then in the church as that which can not stray so far as the other from the end wherunto it was ordeined Moreouer the cawse why the Monarchie in commen wealth can not be condemned is for that it is one off those gouernementes which God hath established and allowed by his word But the Archbishoprick to let pas that yt is contrarie to the word off God yt is sufficient in this consideration that yt hath no allowance off the same For therupon foloweth that althowgh the abuse off those thinges which God hath approued can not destroie the lawfull vse off them yet this which hath no further alowance then of the mouth off mē may vpon experience off euill husbandrie in the church matters be worthely reiected So yt may be seen that althowghe the Ans would make one case off a Magistrate and archbishop yet there is as far distance betwene them as betwene heauen and earth Yt resteth to shewe that the archbishopricke hath bene so farre from nourishing the church peace that yt hath bene the knife wherwith all the stringes and knottes theroff haue bene cutte in peaces Againste vvhich the Ans alledgeth firste the testymonies off Cyprian and Ierome Wherin besyde that I haue shewed that they helpe him not yt is before declared that nether Cyprians bishop did any thing at all nor Ieromes the ordination excepted but by common consent off all the elders Not onely because they were at making off the church lawes vnder which wrinckel the D. woulde hide the excesse off the archbishops
autoritie but also for that they had felowlike autoritie in the deciding off controuersies which rose in their seuerall churches accordinge vnto the lawes After where I quoted certeine places oute off the decrees and other Canons to proue the contention for thes offices the Ans acknowledgeth nothing there that carieth any sounde that waies Albeit the sound was cleare enowghe if he had not bene deafe of that eare For to what ende both in the Nycene Councell where the Metropolitanes are first hard of and when they were yet in the cradell and in many other holden more then 200. yeares after are there founde so many canons for the acknowledging off the autoritie off one Metropolitane in euery Prouince For the honor vvhich he shoulde haue the name he should be called by for the place where they should sytte at their meatinges for the boundes of their circuite doo not all thes declare that there were which were ennemies to that autoritie and that those which were lyfted vp into yt had continuall warre one with an other who should be the first who the greatest who of largeste spreade What meaneth yt also that they changed the seates so often so that the second or third at one Councel was fourth at an other and none at the third and contrariwise he that was none before was cheif afterward What also that the teritoiries appointed by one Councell were abbridged by an other enlarged againe by a third Ys there any man of so smale conceite which doth not hereby vnderstande that this lifting vp of one aboue the reste was a bone caste of the deuill to cause the ministers fall owt one with an other wherby place was made to heresies of all sortes to the vtter vndoing of the church aÌ„d quenching off the gospell And if the D. had bene off so narrowe vnderstanding that vppon so often and so diuers decrees in this behalfe he could not conceiue the contentions which this did breed yet expresse wordes off histories which testifie generally of the coÌ„tentions for those preeminences of Councells as it may appeare by the canons off the Aphrican councel which I haue alledged of the Tauritan which sheweth that the FreÌ„she bishops stroue which church should haue the MetropolitaÌ„ship and how the bishop of Arles and VienÌ„a fell owt for the same were redy to haue informed hiÌ„ of the trwth in this behalfe Yea in the discourse of the Councell of Nice wheron the cheife credit off the Metrapolitane dependeth he might haue redd how almost all the Bishops assembled there had quarels one with an other Which when they were not as doth appeare for diuersitie off iudgement in religion yt is easie to vnderstand that they were for the causes aboue rehersed And if he could be ignorante of all thes yet our stories at home which specifie the combates and going together by the â—ares for thes causes offred vnto him a plentifull proofe off all thes thinges Whherby yt appeareth that this Metropolitaneship was the very apple off contentioÌ„ in schambling for which the church was miserably haled in peaces Therfore forasmuche as the Apostle sheweth that the trwth is kepte by the bonde of vnitie and yt being moste manifeste that thes smokie titles off honor were cawse off contention yt followeth that so farr they are from that pretended off being bulwerckes againste heresies and schismes that they were the principall hookes that pulled them in The Papistes saie that there maie be a bishop of all the whole church because there may be of a prouince I that there can be nether off one nor other They would establishe the Pope by the Archbishop and I ouerthrowe the Archbishop by the Pope This is great ioining with the Papistes If I woulde take the aduantage off your owne wordes firste that there is the same reason of one ouer a diocese and ouer a Prouince and a gaine that forsomuch as one was ouer 12. therfore one maye be ouer a whole prouince I need not seeke for further defense as I haue there declared But againste this M. Caluin and M. Nowell be browght which saie there is not the same reason off one ouer the whole churche and ouer a prouince let yt be so For the one is a more prowder title then the other breaketh in further into the the prerogatiue of Christe then the other And if the church muste needes be accombred ether with Pope or Archbishop let vs graunte so muche to the archbishop that to avoide the Popes iron furnaies wee would be content to grinde in his myll and to a voide the scourge off the one passe by the whip off the other yet heroff foloweth not but that yt ys true I haue set downe For althowghe they are not in all pointes a like nor euery reason which concludeth the one concludeth the other yt hindreth not but ther are certeine reasons which conclude bothe a like That this pointe off keping peace in the church is one off those which requireth as well a Pope ouer all the Archbishops as an archbishop ouer all the bishops in a realme I will goe no further then to the causes your selfe haue assigned For where I shewe that vnitie maie be kepte vvithoute an Archbishop yow assigne two causes for which in keping vnitie yt is meete to haue an Archbishop the one to call the bishops together when there is variance the other to put them in minde of their dewties And if an Archbishop be necessarie for calling of a prouinciall councell when ther is cause off assemblie and when the bishops are deuided yt is necessarie there be also a Pope which maie call the generall Councell when ther is diuision betwene the Archbishops an other cause of generall Councell For wheÌ„ the churches of one Prouince be deuided from other and the archbishops are at variance as yow aske me so I aske yow who shall assemble them together who shall admonishe them off their dewties when they are assembled If you can finde a waie how this maie be doone withowt a Pope the waie is also founde wherby the church is disbourdened off the Archbishop Of the autorities yow alledge nether affirme that the gouernement of an Arbishop ouer a Prouince is conuenient onely they affirme that there is more likelihoode in the one then in the other and that there were archbishops in the churche when ther were no Popes yf one should conclude that becawse a man maie touche the moone with his haÌ„d therfore he maie touche the sonÌ„e and yt be said for answer that althowghe yt be possible to touche the moone yet it foloweth not so of the sonÌ„e who is there of so litle iudgemeÌ„t vvhich vvould gather of this answer that one maye touche the moone vvith his hand And as this proueth that one may ouerthrowe one impossible thing by an other withowt teaching ether off them possible so that I haue alledged 467. pag. perteining to this matter off one vvhich against him that vvould
ministers preach and suppresse heresies so well thorowgh all the church as an archbishop in a Prouince I haue shewed that albeit one be graunted more impossible then the other yet this also is impossible which is sufficient to proue that in hand And that is here confessed when he is constreyned to lay one part off his dutie vpon his Suffraganes shoulders an other vpon his archdeacons c. All which if he be able to beare him self why doth he driue them vnto others Let the church at least be discharged off thes bourdens If not why hath he taken it vpon him Yf the Pope deserue condemnacion for taking more vpon him then he is able to doo the Archbishop and bishops which beare him companie in this point caÌ„ not be separated from it So this reason browght against the Pope standeth fast against them Moreouer as the Pope can not dispatch his matters in the whole churche so well as an Archbis in a prouince so can nether an Archbis in his Prouince so well as a bishop in his dioces nor he in his dioces so wel as in a particular coÌ„gregacioÌ„ doo the duties of a bishop So that this answer no more shutteth owt the Pope then the archbishop or lordly bishop But he saith the archbishop may haue conference with his archdeacons and Chauncelours which the Pope can not He seemeth to haue forgotten the conference by letters and intelligence which the Pope hath had from tyme to time so particular and precise off churches furtheste off him as if he had bene in the bosome off them which pointe Maister Tindall hathe well set forthe And would to God there were the tenth part off the fruicte off the archbishops conference vnto the good off our churche which hathe bene off the Popes to the ouerthrow therof And if conference by mouthe be necessary Rome is not so far but as it hathe bene so it maie be had For besydes that stories aforde vs diuers examples off churches which haue sowght the appeasing off their controuersies from places further remoued then Canterbury is from Rome the marchandrise off vnitie owght to be so precious that we shoulde not doubte to saile for yt vnto the Indes and Garamantes so that if there be suche a mysterie in the nomber of one to kepe vnitie the distance of place owght not to hinder this monarchie off the whole churche yf for no other cause yet for this that when the archbishops of whom hangeth forsoothe the churches peaâ—â— are fallen owt there maie be some to accord them That as the mynisters haue lorde bishops and they tharchbishops so the archbishops might haue a Pope in reuerence off whose autoritie they might easelyer be conioined And in deede by so much more yt is necessary in this respect there should be a Pope ouer the archbishop then ether archbis ouer bishops or bishops ouer ministers as the reÌ„te and diuisioÌ„ in theÌ„ being cheif is more hurtfull then when it falleth amongeste those in lower places For when schismes and heresies light amongeste them they spred so muche further as they with the arme and power off their autoritie are hable to flinge them further then the other The differences betwene the Pope and the archbishop serue but for stuffing for I excepted in my replie the corruptions off doctrine and yow owght to haue vnderstanded that superiority of one bishop ouer all in the catholike churche chosen by consente doothe not necessarily drawe thes accidentes of contempte of Princes of making their decrees equall with the lawes of god c. Yow should therfore haue made yowr coÌ„parison betwene an vniuersall Bishop chosen and not breaking in violently meinteining the truthe and not fighting againste yt c. Vnto that I alledged that thinges passing by voice in the churche of Alexandria the distinction off bishop from the reste off the elders in the church there might come in vvithovvte Saint Marckes consente he saithe nothing And in deede if he had obteined that which he woulde so faine that this alteration was made in S. Marckes time yet he shall neuer obteine this that S. Marke had his hande in that chaunge onles he will saie the Apostells and Apostolicall men were autors off all thinges doone in their time in euery singular congregacion Vnto that I saide the vvordes from Saint Marcke maie be taken rather exclusiuely to shut ovvte S. Marke he answereth that none off iudgement will graunte that where notwithstanding he that hath anie iudgement doth easely vnderstande that the wordes haue manie times that significacioÌ„ and that they are so here I am coÌ„tent it be tried by the other reasons propounded I alledged that S. Marck can not be autor off that distinction because he making those thinges diuers vvhich the holy Gost made one should make the storie he vvrote suspected He answereth yt ys certeine thes were no otherwise distinguished then the holy gost appointed them which I haue shewed how shameles yt ys Then that my collection is vngodly to imagine so off the gospell written by the Euangeliste As yff I did not in plaine wordes deteste all suspicion of the vntrwthe off that Gospell and therfore caste awaie his false surmise which might gyue occasion theroff He saith therby appeareth at the least that yt was auncient I denie not but yt is manifeste also that ther were other corruptions in some places of the churche as aunciente The Answ as his coustome is taketh his pleasure off me because vpon the wordes off Ierome this coustome vvas at Alexandria I gather that yt was not in other places As if yt were not manifeste that Ierome noteth where yt began and if it had beginning at Alexandria yt was there when yt was not in other churches If it had had further passage at that time Ierome should haue doone yt iniurie in coÌ„cealing yt For it would haue made much for the credite off that distinction Which I alledging in the next diuis the Ans saith nothing vnto Nether is there anie so rude an idiote which knowethe not that a notable or vnwonted thinge saide off one man place or time is spoken emphatically and excludeth all other But as the D. will not vnderstande a generall proposition vnles yt haue the signe all or euerie before yt so he will not vnderstande that any thinge is appropriat vnto another vnles yt haue thes wordes onely alone c. And it is cleare how intollerable the D. is in his insultations seing Ierome in saying that this coustome gat grounde by litle and lytle declareth the trwth of my collection And where he answereth to that I obiected off the confounding oftentimes off prieste and bishop that the bishop is a prieste but not contrariwise he first answereth not to the argumeÌ„t For this is not to be confounded when off two thinges one is verified of the other but thother can not returne and be verified of his fellow Secondly his answer is ouerthrowne by his exposition of the place of
Wherby also foloweth that where the popular estate or the rule of the beste beareth swaie they can not althowghe they vvould haue an archbishop yea herupon foloweth that ether the Canterbury or Yorke archbishop muste leese his head For yt is concluded off his highe diuinitie that as there is but one prince in the whole Realme so there muste be but one Archbishop His reason the Prince can not els be supreme gouernour off all estates and causes ecclesiasticall to say no more is senseles and hath no knot with that wherunto yt belongeth As if vvhen Roome had both Emperours and consules the Emperour could not be cheife gouernour off the consuls because the Consuls were equall amongest themselues I confessed yt vnconuenient that there should be one Caesar ouer the worlde but that yt may be he alledgeth Caluin that yt is moste absurd to what pourpose what contrarietie is here yt is enowghe for me that there may be and that lawfully a Prince of larger extent of dominion then the archbishop of his archbishopricke althowghe the prince vvould graunte yt him which vtterly ouerthroweth his cause and this being alledged off me afterward is clean passed by For his defense consisteth in this that the Popes widenes off iurisdiction ouer churches ys vnlawfull because he hath yt not of the gifte off Princes and in this that the externall gouernement of the church must be according to the forme and kinde off gouernement in the commen wealth Which is also manyfestly confuted there whence he hath borowed this temony For there he addeth that althowgh yt were graunted that there might be one Caesar ouer all the worlde yet yt followeth not that there may be one bishop ouer all the churches which notwithstanding muste needes folowe if the externall gouernement off the church muste be according to that forme and kinde off gouernement vsed in the commen wealth a For the distinction which supposeth certein ministers of the word and Sacramētes onely and certein to haue to gether with the administration off them the gouernemente also I refer the reader to that before written his vaine cauil that I desire to be vncontrolled off any but off God is answered The D. accuseth me off falsehood for that I charge bim with citing Augustine and Crysostome at large Towching Augustine that he vvas so alledged appeareth firste pag. 583. and both he and Chrysostom pag. 296. Where he saith he vsed that large quotacion onely once in Muscul Cyril and M. Fox he coulde hardly doo yt oftner in the two laste considering that as I remember he alledgeth them once onely but towching Muscul beside the place I charge him with he lefte his aduersary twise to his wide worckes Where he remembreth not that he sendeth to any other writers but with places quoted as particularly as he could his memory vvhich is so miraculouse at other times is here but miserable To helpe yt beside this place off Cal. he sendeth to his Institutes vvithowt any further restreinte as appeareth pag. 132. againe pag. 74. in his former booke for he hath quoted yt in this later Likewise that Damasus calleth Stephen Archdeacon withowt any direction pag. 344. Also alledgeth Gratian Polidore Volateran vvithowte any restreinte 589. pa. I omit that he sendeth towardes th end off his booke to the large feilde off godly interpreters that diuers times he gyueth the booke onely where he might gyue the chap. the chap. onely where he mighte giue the section all which are contrary to that he setteth downe Wherby may appeare what a hard mouth he hath and howe I speake sparingly off this kinde off allegation off his Charged heere by his fonde allegacion off Cal. Institut he answereth I knew there were sundry editions I did so but whether yt be absurd that he should leaue both the beste and moste vsual to take that which is worse and in the handes of fewe onles he mente to play vnder the boorde that men should not vnderstand I leaue to the readers iudgement His reason he had noted yt laboured it and was acqainted with yt is very simple For is yt meete that because he had made his booke a litle heuier with yncke he should be wedded so to yt as to neglecte the commen commoditie how he is acquainted with yt I knowe not but I trust yt hath and shall appeare that there is no more frendship betwene him and his booke in thes matters then betwene light and darknes But yt is foly to reason with him for he addeth Doctorlike that he both hath and will so vse yt still Howbeit how cometh yt to pas that euen in his former booke he hath alledged the later edition belike ether that was some tributary allegacion or els the latter was better to him there then his noted one Howe vniustly he chargeth me with vncerteine direction in ether all or the moste off thes he setteth downe I leaue to be iudged off that I haue said in that behalfe The reste off this diuis with the nexte is nothing but bare and bould affirmacions reproches and repetitions The nexte to it hath nothing but trifling and vnlerned questions before answered That set downe off the inconuenience off many speaking together according to the prouerbe many may sing but not speake at once is not as he saith needles but made way to the necessitie of hauing one which otherwise equal should haue some preheminence in that action The next hath nothing but railing wordes with repetition off repetitions and that beside the matter considering that the cautions I put off the moderator in the assembly off ministers I put not as alwais obserued off the D. Bishops and Archbishops but as those which owghte to be In asking scripture for proofe he dalieth seeking for that he would not find as the scholer the rod he must be beaten with The cocke a glorious and proud birde which will not suffer his victorie to be hidden but proclameth yt forthwith by crowing yet if he be ouercome hideth him selfe Wherin he sheweth a great deale more modestie then the D. which althowgh he haue neuer a spur of argument ether to defend him self or to offend his aduersary yet croweth as high as if the maistrie were in his hande But let yt goe let vs see his fighte To that I alledgrd of Peter chosen by the other Apostels to moderate the two firste actions notwithstanding yt be not set downe he answereth yt is wicked to grounde thalteration of the archbishop and our bishops gouernemente continued long and practised in the beste times of the church withowt yea contrary to the ground off scripture The long continuance onles they haue salte off the worde off God to preserue them argueth they be rotten and suche as caste an euill sauour That they were not in the beste times off the church hath before appeared whether yt haue ground owte off the worde that Peter was chosen by the Apostels
shew one lettre that I euer wrote or spake that the place to the Ephes conteineth all thinges necessarie for the church then this that he writeth may haue place If not then he is vnworthy to receiue answer seing he hath bene gyuen to vnderstand how far we extend that place Therefore whether there were Publike churches Pulpits Schooles vniuersities in Christian congregations perteineth not to the question althowgh it hath partly and might further be shewed onely I gyue the reader warning that Iudg. â— off those saied to handle the pen whilest I gaue to much credit to translations was not so fitly alledged to proue vniuersities The three next diuis are idle repetitions before answered Where I shewed that one high priest vvas ordeined ouer the Ievves onely that he might represent our S. Christ cheif off the vvhole church the D. answereth he was also for policie and gouernement His reason our Sauiour Christ came not to take away ecclesiasticall policie â—s vaine as thowgh there could be no ecclesiasticall policie onles one minister were ruler ouer a whole nation After he citeth Caluin in the same faithe he is wont For his wordes no reason compelleth to extend that to the vvhole vvorld profitable in one nation are onely vnderstanded off that gouernement in Iury before our Sau. Christes coming which ys manifest in that he saith that example ovvght not to be follovved considering it vvas doon in respect that the high priest vvas a figure off our Sauiour Christ and the priesthood being translated that right is likevvise And after that example off the priestes gouernement ouer the whole nation vvas but for a time That the pressing off the example off the high priest amongest the Ievves dravveth a Pope I leaue to be considered off that before written especially seing the high priest was not onely gouernour off the Iewes when they were paâ—ed in the land off Canaan but euen then also when as it is knowen they were scattered thorowgh owt all natioÌ„s in the world For as S. Luke saith it to haue bene immediatly after the ascension off our Sau. Christ so was it many yeares before his coming into the world So that he which will frame an Archbishop by that example establisheth the Ecclesiasticall charge off one ouer those which were scattered thorowghowt all the corners off the earth It would be also obserued how here the D plaieth on both handes For when we reason sometime onely off the proportion off the law to the gospell other sometime off the perpetuall law off God we receiue answer that we are Iewish ennemies to the libertie of the church But where there is any thing vnder the law coming within a furlong off his cawse he gripeth it for gospellike and which owght to be folowed I see that M. Nowel thincketh a Metro poltane may be ouer a Christian prouince as the high priest was ouer the Iwes wherin I can be but sory that all the Godly learned are not off one mind As for Hyperius he seemeth to reason vpon a supposition that yf the example off the gouernement off the high priest vnder the law should be folowed which he before denied that then a man might conclude an Archbishop ouer a Prouince but not a Pope ouer the whole churche This to be his meaning I thinck the D. him selfe will accord me els let him tel me what to answer to him that saith that yt is not red in the scripture that euer any off the Apostels toke vnto him self autority or primacy ouer thother Apostels but that a most perfect equality is shewed to haue bene in all that Christ did prescribe them equall offices in all thinges that that maÌ„ner of dominion which was not in thappostles time owght not to haue bene admitted in the ages which followed Likewise what he will answer to him which condemneth as new found orders Archdeacons Archelders and vicares Wherof the 2. first haue as I haueshewed better testimonie of their auncientie then the Archbishop and are yf not off the same birth yet off the same kinde that he Where I shew the titles of cheif off the Synagoge of the SaÌ„ctuarie of the hovvs of god to make directly against him coÌ„sidering that particular churches are novv in steed off theÌ„ and therfore there ovvght to be such not in euery Prouince or dioces but in euery particular coÌ„gregation the D. as amazed speaketh he can not tell what First that the Iewes had particular Synagoges as we particular congregations and that I haue confessed that before As if I had any where denied it or had not euen here in effect affirmed it or it helped him for answer which is the ruine off his cause For their Synagoges being the same that our particular churches in euery one off them being not one but many princes the vrging off that example bringeth diuers cheif gouernours or archbishops in euery particular church Then he saith one Christian commen wealth is but one church which is vntrue For first althowgh the church be in a Christian commen wealth yet nether is the commen wealth the church nor the church the commen weaith as shall appeare Besides I haue shewed that the scripture off whose manner off speach the question is vseth not to call a Prouince or dioces a church but ether the whole vniuersall or els a particular congregation Thirdly if it were so yet the answer is insufficient For if the name off the howse off God were coÌ„men as well to a church in a Prouince as in a particular coÌ„gregatioÌ„ yet what right hath he to pull the ecclesiasticall priesthood more to his prouinciall then to our particular church He saith the superioritie amongest the priestes and Leuites is by the ciuill law of Moses Which declareth him rauished off all iudgement it being manifest that they were ether Ceremoniall or Ecclesiasticall lawes wherwith the Lord disposed of the degrees of the ministerie wherof the Ceremoniall being abolished and therfore the chieftie off one priest ouer all we willingly reteine the ecclesiasticall Where to that alledged off Princes off the families off Leuites I replied that the Lord vvoulde by those titles as by liuely pictures imprint in the Ivves vnderstanding the chieftie off our S. Christ he answereth that maketh nothing against their offices Yes for that those that would conclude therof one chief now amongest the ministers in a Prouince are therby put to silence Where he addeth so the estate off a Prince ouer a land should be abolished be is friuolous considering that that gouernement hath other staies off the ordinance off god Where that chieftie amongest the ministers hath nothing but that it was ceremoniall And if my answer like him not he shall haue the bishops as litle for his aduantage which saith The Prince of the families doth not signifie any gouernour or one endued vvith povver but onely the firste and best man off the companie He complaineth that the Bishop speaking off
iudge how vntrw yt is that there were bishops off 100. churches in the Apostels times the two next are answered Whether thes deuised degrees were steppes for the Pope to clime vp let yt be iudged off that alledged and namely off that in M. Beza whose iudgement is the same with myne here how this doth not impeache the holy doctrine of the Sonn off God confirmed in the Nycene Conncell I haue shewed That I doo confesse heere the kinde of gouernement by elders to haue ceassed or that one Bishop was ouer a whole diocese before the councell off Nice ys vtterly vntrue The next let the reader likewise iudge Where he saith I repeate Basile the poore metropolitan and Theodoret the pore bishop for want off others let him know that this was the estate of the most apparaÌ„t bishops at the Nicene councell whom themperour made so much off touching their apparel vile vile to loke to of Athanasius which being metropolitane was poore off Ambrose which had no suyt of men after him aÌ„d which was in his houshould stuf and reuenewe poore of the bishoÌ„p off Thâ—â— lose which was poore Yea the richest by the churche and by the churche beste prouided for were content with that wherof they might honestly and soberly lyue And where an other off the D. refuges is that they might haue bene riche yt is trew they with their competent houshoulde owght to be honestly prouided for leste the care ouer the flock shoulde be drawne to thinges off this life I graunte also that they may be riche but I denie that they owghte to growe riche by the ministrie yt owght to suffice them as the Apostle saith to liue off the gospell not to riot not to haue aÌ„ lordly estate not to be rich by yt as yt is both expounded and confirmed off Ierom. Where I shewed owt off the auncient Councells that the bishops should haue a litle house nere the churche their houshould stuf after the common sorte table and diet poore not gyue them selues to feasting get their estimacion by good conuersation he answereth one of the councels decreed that the clerckes should get their lyuing by some occupatioÌ„ not meete for our daies But it decreed not that the bishops or ministers of the word should doo so but onely Clerkes in which number were readers dorekepers acolouthes exercistes and other such which hauing light charges in the churche were fashioned in the Bishops howse to the ministrie These hauing a great part off their lyuing as shall appeare off that appointed for the bishops howse were commaunded to get the reste with their handes at such times as were nether hinderance vnto their office nor their further aduauncement in learning as it is to be seene in those Canons Now if they afters dinners and suppers or others tymes wherin they nether executed office nor were so fyt to studie occupied them selues in some arte werby they gained parte off their liuing and those Clerckships were needfull I see no great inconuenience in that order At the lest in the time and countrie in which the D. would lurke ther is no difference If there had bene any material he owght to haue shewed yt for what cause can he assigne why our bishops should liue more lordly then those both liuing in the peace and welth off the church and vnder Christian magistrates They sowing also more liberally then ours why should they reape more scantly especially seing diuers off their Countries were better hable to fournishè them off that riot then ours is Where also he would make men beleue that they are come to this excesse by Christian princes liberalitie the trewthe is otherwise For they to whome they succeded in this princely estat came to this wealth by church robbery Seinge yt is easy to proue by diuers aswell giftes off the Emperours an others as by statutes and prerogatiues made in fauour off the church that yt was very riche in time off those bishops Therfore that he alledgeth otherwhere for the continuance off these large reuenewes to one bishop lest our bishops as some in Augustins time shoulde take occasion of pillagâ—â— is absurd Yt is highe time that he were to speake no greuous lier vnbishoped which will take occasion off pillage hauing to liue on a hundreth pound a yeare And as yt is obscrued that the church goods were committed vnto the bishops truste to this ende that he taking so muche as would honestly mainteine him should bestow the reste vpon diuers other church necessities so the same appeareth in that it was ordeined that the bishop should vse the church goodes as thinges gyuen to him to kepe and not as his ovvne Also by the examples off Athanasius and Augustine wher off for the first falsly accused of the turning away off the corne gyuen to the church vnto his owne vse was answered by the Councell assembled at the Alexandria that he had nothing but the trauaile in disposing off yt The other shewing how the Donatists had not onely their own when they retourned vnto the church but also off the church goods addeth that the church goods vvere both theirs and his seing he vvas poore as vvel they But if saith he vve possesse priuatly as muthe as may suffice vs then the church goods are none of ours but the poores off vvhich goods vvee haue the ordering and doo not chalenge them as proper vnto vs vvhich is a damnable abuse Further the bishops in times paste for that portion alowed vnto them kepte not onely them selues and their owne houshoulde but nourished in their houses and at their tables the foorsaid Clerkes as appeareth in Augustines example with whom they were at one table in one howse and off the same charges I leaue the testimonie of the Councell that of the churches goods deuided into 4. partes gyueth one of them vnto the bishop and his brethern Which althowgh yt be corrupt and not of the auncientie pretende dyet in a case not in questioÌ„ and which hath confirmacion off the former times I might a great deale better vse then the D. hath donne his counterfaictes The testimonie off M. Hooper shall suffise who saith that the bishops houshould vvas the schole or treasurehouse off good ministers to serue the vvord off God and administration off Sacraments Thus appeareth that the difference betwene our bishops and them in times past is not as is pretended in that the churches were then poore and now riche but partly in that the goods which serued before for diuers necessary Vses off the churche serue now to the lording and vnnecessary statelines off one Partly also in that those bishops hauing a colledg off scholers in their howses which were the seed and store off the ministrie nourrished them at the same trencher with them ours the Clerkes or scholers being thrust out deuoure al them selues And that it is not as he saith in
before yt came into the church off the Christians yt vvas as diuers other corruptions taken off them by imitation whether a thirde and more higher cawse theroff were that the brauery of the pourpled vvhore of Rome might bothe easelier take her seate and faster houlde yt vvhilest other bishops vvere made somevvhat sutable vnto her vvhich she could not haue done if other bishops left in the simplicitie vvherin God had apointed them she had bene as an ovvle amoÌ„gest the reste of the birdes I say whether these three are amongest the causes off bringing in the bishops pompe into the churche I leaue to the readers iudgement Considering that the D. beside begging and dissembling the matter which I goo abowte to proue hathe nothing That Christians might aswel be thowght to haue folowed Maximinus in building churches as in sufficiently prouiding for the ministers ys to simple seing we deny hym not sufficient prouision But if he esteme nothing sufficient onles he be mainteined as a lord let him learn off S. Paul what is sufficient and so he shal I doubt not fall from his 1000. to a 100. vnto thes three causes off the bishoplike statelines I will heer ad the fourth worthy to be obserued M. Bucer shewing the incommodities which came by that the bishops vvere receiued to bear ciuill offices saith after they began to occupie the place off princes they chalenged also to them selues their pompe and brauery So let the reader iudg how trw yt ys that I said that our archbishops bishops c. besides the names haue almost nothing commenvvith those of elder times and hovv if the old bishops vvere aliue they vvould not knovv one annother For that they vvould thinke ours princes and ours vvoulde esteme them as hedge priÌ„estes What I allow off the oulde Canons and what I disalow althowgh he dissemble yet he knoweth better then he would I hauing at large declared yt in this Tractate The first diuis I oâ—â—it In the next to that the Apostle called the Corint to a moâ—â—rate estimacion of the ministers meane betvveen contempt and to much exalting them vpon occasion that the false Apostels were to much lifted vp he saith yt was a partial affection to wardes their teachers not in respect off any title which is friuolous for if it be denied generally that they shoulde not be so mounted then the way is stopped against titles and offices and other meanes whatsoeuer wherby that may grow Beside that the D. is afraied as appeareth by his answer to be browght vnto a moderation and meane betvvene contempt and excessiue estimacion Where I shew that as the false Apostels pompe in preaching lifting them vp aboue the faithfull ministers caused the faithful ministers to be contemned so the pompe of our bishops lifted vp aboue the rest off the pastors to be a ready vvay to bringe their mynisterie ovvt off credit and that as that gaue occasion to the Corinthes to saie I houlde off suche a teacher c. so this giueth occasion to say I vvil beleue my Lord Bishop or my lord Archbishop vvhatsoeuer our parson say for they be vvise men and learned I say to all this beside wandring and vnlikely slaunders there is not a word seing I trust it appearethe to all that we giue no occasion by any pompe that the people in magnifying off vs should condemne others The next diuision I leaue to the reader Where against the D. slaunder off the Admonitions intent to take away princes I shewed that his practise against vs is the same vvith the Pharisies against our Sauiour Christ vvhich being rubbed for their ambition accused him as no friend off Cesar He answerethe that we are not Christ which is ridiculous that the case is not like whereof let the reader iudge seing he is as they were honour pricked Whether our Archbishop dvvell as far asonder almost from the ciuil magistrate as Rome and Ierusalem let the reader iudge off that alledged likewise what a coÌ„ning stargaser the D. is which saw in the star off my forehead that the admonition intended the ouerthrow off the ciuill magistrate The nexte off the canon off Antioche Councel is answered but where I shew that that Canon is not like to be iustifiable considering that it sovvght falsely â—â—edite off the name off the apostels he answereth not Onles this be his answer that yt is the naturall Canon off the apostels And in deede his wordes so sound for thus he saithe That canon off the Apostels is repeated in this councel as diuers off the Nice be repeated off other councels Which how shamfully yt is spoken may appeare off that we haue before disputed off the antiquitie off the metropolitane How dangerously to the ouerthrow off our faithe whilest we are borne in hand that there be canons of the Apostels not coÌ„teined in the canonicall scripture al that haue iudgement may vnderstand and yt is in parte before declared I omit that yt is cleane contrary to his doctrine off the archbishop wherby he maketh him an officer changeable at the wil of the Prince For if that be thApostles Canon there is no ministery in the holde scripture which hathe better euidence for an vnchangeable perpetuitie then yt That M. Bucer is wholy for vs in this point I refer the reader to that before written The place alledged here would haue made litle for him if he had not kepte his custome For where Bucer speaketh off obedience to be gyuen by the bishops to the metropolitan he hath left owt these wordes after their maner By vvhich conning he may proue the Acthiopian afaire man because he hath white teeth For all see that M. Bucer by these wordes delaied the autoritie off the metropolitanship And if they were not plaine enowgh yet others in the same place are that the patriarches vvere set ouer the metropolitanes as they ouer the bisho â–ª but that nether could doe any thing saue onely admonish those ouer vvhoÌ„ they vvere set aÌ„d if they obeied not to complaine of them to the synod After he condemneth that the Patriarches toke vnto them the ordination off the bishops nigh them and by meanes therof by litle and litle gat some iurisdiction ouer those bishopes and their churches So appeareth that if there be any difference here touching these offices betwene vs and M. Bucer yt is onely that where we affirme yt good that the presidentship should be chosen at euery meeting as that which cometh neerer the apostels example and more safe against Tyranny M â–ª Bucer may seem to make yt a standing and continuall office set â—â— in one man For as towching his autority wherin the chief poinct off the controuersie lieth yt findeth as smal grace with M Bucer as with vs. Whatsoeuer is here is answered sauing the contrarietie assigned betwen this an Apostle vvas aboue an Euangelist and that there was chiefrie euen amongest the apostels in that one labored more and
described cccâ—xlix ccccliij Whether refer that the archbishop and bishop are nue ministeries ccccxxxviij Likewise that the first step to this kind off bishoprik began at Alexandria and not in Sion or Ierusalem and that it was after the Apostles times dxlviij Also the first step of preheminence to an archbishoprik ouer many bishops was but a litle before the Nicene Councel cccclxxxv That both this bishop and archbishop had their beginning by bare custome and not by the institution off God cccclxxxv dlxviij These two last pointes being expreslie shewed off the bishops and archbishops may be easely vnderstanded to be true in the Archdeacons and deanes by that dj dxxxvj diiij Yt ys further shewed off the archbishop that hâ— was not in steed of Archflamins instituted by S. Peter as 〈◊〉 pretended cccclxix Where is shewed that there were no Arâ—â—â—lamins vnder the Romain Empire cccclxxj not in England especially in the time supposed cccclxxij We refuse them also for that they exercise dominion Forbidden precisely vnto Ecclesiasticall persons 20. Mat. and 1 â–ª Pet. 5. ccccxxj ccccxxxj Declared in the example off S. Peter which had no autoritie giuen him aboue the rest off the Apostles but was in such respect equall dcvij Here are confuted the endes off instituting this autoritie Whereoff one is pretended to assemble rhe Synodes and to propound the matters dcxij dlxxxij Wherto belongeth that of those otherwise equall it is meet to auoid confusion that one by choise of the rest should rule the action and that yt is not meet that this should be perpetuall ccccxxij Which is conâ—â—â—ed by the example off S. Peter chosen therto by the Apostles and not perpetually dcxcvij made plaine by the examples off the elder and french churches now dxiâ—x The other pretended cause is to remedie contentions ccccxlvâ—ij â–ª dxlix dl dlxxiâ—ij dlxxxij Here also is shewed that he is the cause off contention dlxxix Which being shewed in the bishop and archbishop perteineth in part also to the archdeacon and deane Further against this dominion serueth that they are fellow seruantes fellow brethren in office ccccxx viij dxlv Also for that order and degrees stand withowt them ccccxxvij dcij This ys further declared by comparison of the elder archbishops and bishops with ours dxciiij dcxliiij Namely of Cyprians dxlvj and Ieroms dlxviij Likewise of the elder Archdeacons with ours dij And deanes with ours diiij That the Nicene Councell is far from mainteining the autoritie off our metropolitan dlxij So are the Councels off Antioch and Arles dlxv That Epiphanius Archbishop stood not in autoritie but in excellency off giftes dlx Here vpon we condemn as in all Ecclesiasticall ministers so in these foure al loftie titles as those which are annexed to dominion Wherunto perteineth that names are not alwaies indiffereÌ„t 408 And first the giuing high titles of ciuil honour as those which put a differeÌ„ â—â— betwene the ciuil aÌ„d ecclesiast officer ccccvj ccccxxiij As forbid â–ª 〈◊〉 precisely 22. Luk. cccciiij namely that the bishop Archbishops â—nd by the same reason deanes ought not to be called lordes hauing regard to the vse of our contrey ccccvij dclv Also that the title off Prince part off the Archbishops and Archdeacons name breaketh vpon the possession off the ciuil magistrate ccccvij Secondly in Ecclesiasticall titles we denie vnto them to be called heades off the churches Where is shewed first that that title agreeth vnto no simple creature The causes wheroff are ccccxij The absurdities which folow the giuing off it to any other then to our San. Christ ccccxj The approbation off writers nue and ould that he is onely head ccccxiij The same shewed off the name off Archbishop cccix Hetherto belongeth that it was not so sone in the west partes as in the East ccccxciiij That yt is not shewed to haue bene giuen to any but with condemning off yt in any alowed writer vntill about 380. yeares ccccxcv Wherto perteineth that nue writers gyuing yt to ministers of elder times are shewed to haue doen it according to the times wherin not whereoff they wrote cccclxxxj ccccxcv Likewise that the name metropolitan is not off the same value with archbishop cccclxxxvij And that it is not shewed to haue bene before the Councell off Nice ccccxciiij Also that the Councels off Carthage houlden about ccl and 400. yeares doe forbid this name ccccxcviij Finally hether perteineth that off the counterfait canons off the Nicene Councell handled cccclxxxviij And the counterfait book off Ambrose which mentioneth the archbishop ccccxcj Likewise the name of Arch deacon is not shewed vntill about 400. yeares page 502. Nor off the deane vntill about the same time page diiij Furthermore vpon this that dominion is forbidden them is also forbiddeÌ„ their other pomp off lije Wherof vnto the three causes assigned in my former book xcviij Is added the fourth â—â—0 off this book This ys shewed by comparison off the elder bishops with ours in their apparel houses houshould stuf fare traine off men dcxlxij c. Further that the most part off the riches wherwith this pomp is mainteined is the commen treasure off the church for mainteinance off the miâ—sters which want off the poore and off the vniuersities and th … in this point they haue succeded vnto those which got the 〈◊〉 sacriledge dcxlix Further we refuse the archbishop and archdeacon for that they haue larger charges then they are or can be sufficient for Hetherto perteineth that all the ordinary ministers owght to be appointed to a place and that that place is a particular congregacion no diocese nor prouince ccxcvj ccclx Where the D. corruption drawen from the Papistes is confuted Hether also perteineth that Denis did not deuide parishes Prouinces and dioceses ccclviij Hether also perteineth that by the word off God there may and owght if the case require be moe bishops in one particular congregation â—â—n one dxxvij The traces theroff in the church long after the Apostles time page dxxviij dlâ—â— Likewise that there owght by the word off God to be in euery particular congregation one bishop dxv Hether refer the causes off the falling away of this order which were naught dxx Likewise that care ouer churches inferreth not necessarily charge ouer them dcxxij That the iurisdiction they had owt off their particuler churches was nothing but a reuerend estimation page dxxxij Hetherto perteineth the vse off the church long after the Apostels times ccc Also that the elder bishops were called bishops off parishes cccclxxvâ—ij The examples off Demetrius dxlij off Cyprians bishop aâ—most through the whole 3. chapter off the last Tra. off Cornelius 540. 556. of Dionysius Alexandrinus 558 Gregorie 5â—9 Peter Alexandrinus â—60 Athanasius 56â— Ambrose 492. Al which alledged by the D. as bishops off prouinces were ether of one particular church or off the churches in one onely ciâ—â—e or at the least had far les compas by the twentith part then our bishops This
is vnmeet to … own mynisters their Care chism ccclxiiij Hether belongeth the treatise off reaâ—ing the holy scriptures where fyrst ys shewed the vse of reading them in the church ccclxxv That reading off them is not able ordinarily to hould the people from pining ccclxiij Nether can reading of praiers or admynistration off the Sacramentes withowt preaching ccclxiiij That simple readers ordeined for pastors can not properly be called watchmen ccclxxvj That reading ys not preaching ccclxxxvij Against the phrenefie that bare reading ys better then preaching clxxxv That bare reading ys not so good as preaching ccclxxiiij not to the learned them selues ccclxxxiiij much les reading of the homilies cccxciij Which are not meet to be red in the churche openly cccxcij As are not also the Apoctypha ccxcviij especially considering their corruptions page cccc Hether perteineth the iudgement off the churches off vnlearned ministers ccclxiiij The causes off the vnlearned mynistery with vs ccclxiij ccclxv ccclxxj Ordination ORdination doth not belong to the bishop alone cclxxiiij Against the Bishop commaunding to receiue the holie goste in ordeining ccxcij Residence IN the residence off the ministers that off the Pastor is particularly handled 4. Tract page cccxxx Where our reasons are mainteined That it is the institution off God in the ould Test cccxlij In the nue cccxliiij That the calling of the church which ys also the lordes ys to that place onely cccxxxij That he owght to be resideÌ„t that therby greater loue might be wrought cccxiv That hauing better knowledg off the estate off his flock he may better doe all dueties towardes them cccxxxix That with seing the blessing off God he might be stirred to further diligence cccxlv That his flock hauing more famyliaryty might haue easier acces ibid. That he might be 〈◊〉 â—â—mple of life cccxliij Proued also by … oÌ„tinual duty off preaching Whether perteineth that treatise wherein ys shewed that yt ys conuenient yt should alwaies god before the administring of the holie Sacramentes cccxlviij Hether may be referred the comparison of the diligence of the elder Bishops in preaching dcxlvij Whether also refer the vnlawfull power of the bishop towching licences to preach wherby yt is in his will whether he will gyue the pastor leaue to preach or no coÌ„sidering that it is a necessarie dutie of the pastor and the principall cause off his residence cccxlj That he must admonish both the wicked and the godly strengthen both the weak and the strong cccxlj Comfort in temptation cccxlvij Therfore that the bare reading off the scripture is no sufficient supplie in his absence cccxliij Nether his care cccxxxij That the conscience off the pastor and contentement of the people ys no good rule off doing these duties cccxxx Nether belongeth that the pastor owght not to goe here and there to preache where he thincketh good Where ys shewed that God doeth not alwaies call to places where one may doe most good no not in the extraordinary callings muche les in the ordinary cccxxxvj That this going about to preache as yt ys assigned of the Answerer taketh away the difference betwene the pastors calling and the extraordinary functions cccxxxij That those extraordinary callinges doe not make against the pastors residence as yt is assigned off vs cccxxxj cccxxxix That they rather make for yt cccxxxij cccxxxiij cccxxxv That ordinarie deputies are ouerthrown by this residence cccliiij whether may be referred that dlxxxvj of deputies Likewise pluralities of benefices ccclvj Hether refer that absence for some causes and some conditions doe not ouerthrow resideÌ„ce cccliij This ys also proued by comparison of shepardes and watchmen cccxxxvj Where ys shewed how shamefully the answerer abuseth the doctrine off Gods holy election and of final perseuerance of those whiche are once called cccxxxviij Also that by his answer the pastor after he hath admonished them need neuer come to them nor yet leaue any deputie cccxli Likewise off the eie and soule cccxlvij 〈◊〉 yt as ys precious a worke to kepe those gotten as to get otheâ—â—â—ich be in ignorance and more agreable vnto the pastors of … e. The autoritie off Councels and fathers cccxxxiiij cccliiij Ecclesiasticall correction A part off that Ecclesiasticall discipline which standeth in corrections is commaunded is Math. 66. To note onely the errors corruptioÌ„s and shameful falsifyinges of the D. in suche sort as he hath pretended in my book were to make a new book But because there is much void paper I wil gyue the reader an assay onely of those conteined in the treatises which I haÌ„dle in this book And those shal be not off the capital matters betwene vs but off such as are browght to vnderset them quoted according to his own book whereby yt shal appeare that for the defence off this cause he troubleth heauen yt self and in earth ouerthroweth both estates Ciuil and Ecclesiasticall THe vvhole lavv of god generally is abrogated pa. 121. li. 39. The scripture speaketh not one vvord off preaching or baptizing priuately or openly page 89. line 6. The scripture hath not commaunded nether can yt be by necessary collection theroff gathered vvhether vve should receiue the communion clothed or naked page 24. line 21. The scripture hath appointed no discipline for the correcting off suche as shall contemn the hearing off the vvord and coÌ„mon praier page 88 line 47. He matcheth the iudiciall lavves off god gyuen vnto the Ivves vvith the Turckes lavves page 149 line 32. HE alovveth th 〈◊〉 sentence off Cyrill vvhich condemneth the iustice off g … … ishing those by aeternall death vvhich suffered corporâ—â—â—â—ath vnder the lavv page 149. line 48. He matcheth the â—ouâ—â—shing off saithe by consideration off the creatures vvith popishe imagety page 571. line 2. TO maintein the sole election off the bishop he vvould haue the free elections off magistrates in cities and Borovvgh Tovvnes taken avvay page 171. line 49. VVherby he vvill haue the forme of gouernement off the common vvealth framed vnto the form off the church vvheroff notvvithstanding and that most vntrvvly he accuseth me Likevvise that vnder the gospell there is no punishment off the body laid vpon a transgressor but that if he repent so that he may seem vvorthy to haue the punishement vvithdravvn he may finde forgiuenes page 150. line 9. No man vvhat crime soeuer he hath committed is to be secluded from any lavvful vocation if he repeÌ„t And by vocation he meaneth publike office page 146. line 23. The externall gouernement off the church vnder a Christian magistrate must be according to the kinde and form off gouernement vsed in the common vvealth pa. 389. li. 5. vvhich beside the absurditie vtterly ouerthrovveth the liberty vvhich him self pretendeth that the church hath in disposing off yt In the Apostels times yt vvas permitted to all men to preache the vvord off God page 191. li. 16. Beside Pastors there are novv vvith vs Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes page 229. line 6. ALthovvgh there vvere a sufficient nomber off able men to supply the places of the reading ministers yet the reading ministers ovvght to kepe their places still page 485. lin 5. The vvord ys as effectual red as preached Page 569. lin 23. To those vvhich vnderstand the scriptures they are as vvhot and lightsom red as preached page 573. li. 34. publike reading in the church is as solemâ—â— matter as Catechising the youth page 425. lin 43. Yt may be that some men be more aedified 〈◊〉 simple reading off the scriptures â–ª then by sermons paâ—â— â—80 li. 30. To that I say that nether homilies nor Apocrypha are to be compared ether in goodnes vvithin them selues or fruict to the hearers vvith the scripture or reading thereof he ansvvereth that that maketh against sermons as vvel as against homilies and rather against sermons then against them Page 717 li. 52. VVherby he affirmeth that homilies are both better in them selues and more fruiteful to the hearers then sermons
him that faulteth that waies to be no meÌ„bre off the churche S. Paule found greater scismes in the churche off Corinthe then those were and yet he rebuked them withe an other spirite then yow vse neiter dothe he cut them of from the church but in the spirite off mildnes restoreth them And iff yow had learned that yow ought not to breake a brused reede nor quenche the smoking flaxe yow would haue dealte otherwise then yow doe Yf so be that the churche of England were reformed as yow would beare vs in hande and the Bishops by castinge owt off their ministers owt off their churches had not giuen the occasion of suche departure the departure had bene more vntollerable And therfore as muche as yow add to the amplisyinge of their faulte so muche yow encrease off the sinÌ„e of the bishops which withowt iust cause gaue occasion of that division There is great difference betwene the preaching off the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the preaching off those brethren for the Anabaptistes and other heretikes preachinges be with the vpholding off their false opinions and doctrine contrarie to Scripture werwith yow are not able to charge them in the least pointe but that in all doctrine whiche yow preach truely they preach the same withe yow And vvhere yow saie Disiuncrely that oftentimes the word of god is preached amongest the Anabaptistes and heretikes or the Sacramentes administred in those congregations which yow make Anabaptistes or like vnto them bothe the worde was preached and the Sacramentes Ministred togither And therfore if yow did purposely put that Or rather then and then whilest yow vvrote your conscience offred yow a manifest difference betwene the Anabaptistes and those brethren And iff yow did not put yt purposely but meane that in the conuenticles off the Anabaptistes and heretikes bothe the vvord off god is preached and his sacramentes administred speaking so precisely I would gladlie know off yow vvhat difference yow make betwene the conuenticles of the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the churche off God seing that the preaching off the word and ministring off the sacramentes are the infallible notes thereoff Ind this ought to haue giuen yow occasion off a softer worde yff yow had not bene driuen by the tempeste of your affection rather then led by any quiet and staied iudgement off the truthe Because it is your oulde wont and either yowe can not or wil not proue or improue your sayinges by the word off god I will not stand to note how that vppon Augustins worde onelie withowt any proufe owt off the word off god yow haue here cut a numbre from the churche yf yow bind so harde and locke so fast yow should haue brought the bonde and Keye off the word off god that the conscience which onely looketh vnto the word off god seinge it selffe in that daunger might be carefull to seeke how to be deliuered The glosse and the Text varie here For the one in saying that it standeth me good name vpon to bring them owt which are free wil men and holde consubstanstantiation semeth to denie that there be any suche The other by saying that theÌ„re are not so manye and that they are not iustified do the indirectlie confesse it And if yt were not confessed the thinge is so notorious that albeit I name them not yet I nede not to feare the supition off vntruthe in that which hathe so manie witnesses And where yow saye there are not so many off them as off those whom yow most falsely and slaunder ouslie call puritanes As I reioice therin in the behalffe off the churche off England so it standeth not by any diligence good foresight or discipline off yours that the churche swarmeth not with them seinge they are suffred to haue the highest places in the churche vvhere vvith the leuaine off their false doctrine they may sowre not one towne as it vvere thre peckes but vvhole shires as it vvere a vvhole heape or fatte or other off the largest measures off the lordes meale in our countrey And so althoughe they be not by wordes mainteined yet they are in deede not onelie mainteined but also by suche sufferance in those places rewarded Vnto the nine next sections I answere nothinge In the laste section 45. pag. vnto the places off Saint Paul vvherby I proue that yt is no breache off trew Christianitie to alter in iudgement he answereth that the Apostles meaning is not that men shoulde be dailie altering their iudgement and broching new opinions which is no answer to the question For althowghe we maie not dailie broche newe opinions yet vve owght to correcte our oulde errors as often as we are made vnderstande them So that vnles he will saye that those which beleue the gospell are vvithowte the daunger off error in thinges perteining to the gouernement off the churche c. or that when they knowe their errors they shoulde not amende them boothe which are absurde it muste needes folowe that he goeth abowte to abuse the reader vvhiche vppon that vve haue chaunged Iudgement vvoulde drawe vs into the suspition off lightnes and vnconstancie And seing the churche off Englande chaunged the booke of common praier twise or thrise after yt had receiued the knowledge of the gospell and allwaies corrected some thinge off that whiche yt helde for good before either the answerer must condemne those alterations as childishe and vnconstant or els he must confesse that a whole churche lightened wythe the knowledge off the gospell and established in a certeine order off gouernement maye with owte feare off suspition off that liÌ„ghtenes which he dooth surmise displace the former order and place an other Vnto the 4. nexte I answer nothing sauing that where the glosse chargeth me with contrarietie I desire the reader to consider what contraririe or what colour off contraritie there is betwene thes sayinges the churche can not longe continevve vvithovvt common vvelthes and the churche maye be established vvithovvt a Christian magistrate Yff I had saide that the churche might be established witheowt a magistrate then there had bene some likelyhood off the contrarietye he surmyseth But he shoulde vnderstande as longe as their be magistrates althowghe they be not onely vnchristian but Tyrannicall and persequuting yet the blessing which the lorde geueth vnto his owne ordinance so ouercometh all their malice that ther ceaseth not come euen from that disordered gouernement some thinge to the preseruacion of the churche The answer which his glosse asketh for towching churlishe ansvvering althowghe yt deserued none is page 177. and he coulde not be ignorante but I referred him in the answer to the seuenth article Vnto the firste parte off the laste Section page 47. I answer nothing For answer vnto the later parte towching the place of Timothe wherby he wolde proue that men maye offer them selues to the ministerie I will referre the reder to the treactise off the discipline off â—he churche lately set forthe where this is answered
of the electe church of God yet that foundation alwaies remaineth that when the question is of an others mans election God knovveth vvho are his So that yow can draw no argumeÌ„t from his election which is vncertaine vnto vs to conclude a certeine election vnto the ministerie Againe why doo yow saie he that is a membre off the inuisible maye be a minister in the visible as thowghe the inuisible church were off some higher nature then the visible or as thowghe the trew membres off the visible church did not make one misticall bodie off Christ with the inuisible Therfore when all commeth to all the reason is nothing els but he is a membre off the church ergo he is fit to be a minister off the church which is very absurd For by this meanes all good order off discipline is troubled in howse and in common wealthe The maister which hath bene deceiued off his seruant which he moste put in trust as for example in the office off stewardship if he giue good tokens off repentance must off necessitie restore him to his place For will he seclude him from his stewardship whom Christ dothe receiue into his kingdome and shall not we think him to be a meete officer in his maisters howse albeit he haue committed adulterie with his mistres which is a membre off the electe churche off Christ And this reason standing common wealthes must goo vpside downe for besides that all those lawes are condemned which debarre men from certeine freedomes and honours which haue bene stained with especiall vices as he that is once conuinced off periurie from bearing witnesse at any tyme c. there maie none either traitor or murtherer be put to death if he be repentante For his pardon is caselie pleaded by the Answ rule that if he be meete to dwell in heauen he is meete to remaine vppon earth and if the lord giue him euerlasting liffe should we denie vnto him this traÌ„ssitorie liffe And not that onely but if he had had an office before it is meete he shoulde be restored to it againe If this be an absurde and anabaptisticall kind off reasoninge in the discipline off the howse and gouernment off the common wealth how is it not the same in the discipline of the church And iff yow sticke so hard to the example off God it is not hard to shew how that the lord remitting the faulte vnto his children vppon their repentance hathe notwithstandinge kept them in sharpe discipline for their faultes all the daies off their liffe bothe in there owne persons and sometimes in there childreÌ„s and in all that belonged vnto them so that yf yow will needes tie the church to the example off goddes mercie and forgiuence that dothe not onelie not hinder these chastismentes and church discipline but also extendeth it further then the church or the coÌ„mon wealth may doo The holie goste by Iethro prescribinge what officers should be chosen dothe not onelie require that they should feare God which is to saie be of good religioÌ„ be wise and valiaÌ„t but also requireth that they be trustie which as appeareth by other places off the Scripture where this here commaunded was put in execution signifieth suche as were faithfull and trustie to the commonwealth and which had of their former life giuen good argumentes off there fastnes that way Therfore if in choise to the greate and weightie charges off the coÌ„mon wealth it is not enoughe that they be of good Religion able also for their wisdome and courage off minde to execute vnlesse they haue bene founde faithfull in that estate wherin they haue liued before how muche more owght that to be obserued in committing the greatest charge that is vnder the sonne which is the Ministerie off the worde And if in common wealthes men vvill committe no greate trust vnto him which hathe deceiued the trust which was put vppon him how much more owght that to be obserued in the church Where as the losse and daunger is greater so owght the trust to be slower and the parties to whom it shoulde be committed more vnsuspected And yet for further confirmation he must vnderstand that for as muche as our Sauiour Christ and S. Paule require that a minister off the word off God should be faithfull in his office as those to whom the choise belongeth owght to haue regard to his former sobrietie continencie in liffe and other vertues to induce them selues to a good persuasioÌ„ off him towching those vertues so owght they vppon his former life to gather suche argumentes of his faithfullnes and trust as therby they may be able to meintaine a stronge and mightie presumption off the faithfullnes which is to come vvhich thinge vvhen they can not doo in one vvhose vntrustines is freshe before their eies they can not haue sufficient testimonie to perswade their conscience that he is of that trust to whoÌ„ they may comÌ„it the church of god For if they looke vpon repentance vvhich he professeth it coÌ„meth alwaies to minde that countenaÌ„ce the eies do lie oftentimes and mouth oftenest off all And albeit vppon good and likelie tokens the church owght to thinke it a trew repentaunce yet it can not be so sure thereoff as it is off the vnfaithfulnes So that in vveighing the repentaunce which is vncertaine vvith the counterpoise of his vnfaithfulnes that is certaine it will be harde to conceiue that strenght of opinion off his â—â—faithfulnes wherupon they may aduenture to put him againe in trust with the church At the leste if there be one fit for the Ministerie which neuer was stained with that fault all men must needes graunt that he is meeter to satisfie the consciences off the chusers then the other vvhich the Ans denieth And as before I haue shewed that the exaÌ„ple of our Sau. Christ in putting S. Paule and S. Peter into the ministerie is not to be folowed off vs So vppon the matter I haue here alledged it may easelie appeare vvhy That is to say for as muche as he knew the harte off man and sawe their cogitations longe before they were conceiued he needed not any time to trie how they vvould behaue them selues in their ministerie nor any either Testimonies or argumentes of former liffe to helpe his persuasion off their fitnes thereunto Therfore he knowing both by the fulnes off the spirite off discretion gyuen hym vvithowt measure and by his diuine knowledge how faithfullie they vvould employe themselues in that mynistrye mighte vvell open the dore vnto those againste vvhom the churche owghte to kepe yt shutte If any man vvoulde here excepte againste this answer vvith the example of Iudas vvhich did so traiterously behaue hym selfe in his office yt ys not vvorthe the answer For vvho knoweth not that that was doone that the Scripture mighte be fulfilled and that for that cawse our Sauiour Christe forseinge the treason to come did notwithstandinge gyue him a place in
Athanasius when he was but deacon or elder at the most writeth To Athanasius Lord and beloued sonÌ„e So that if Dominus must needes be a Lord then my Lord bishop muste by the same reason that he would be called Lord call the elders or Deacons Lordes likewise So there shall be Lord Bishop Lord Elder Lord Deacon vvhich as it is ridiculous so it tuneth not with the bishops note off honour which the D. fighteth for And this is also answer to my Lord Paulinus beside that Lord is not referred vnto the pronoune yovvres as if the councell had said Athanasius was the elders Lord. And if it were yet if he vvill therupon conclude any superioritie of him aboue thelders off his church he must by the same reason say that one simple bishop had superioritie ouer an other seing Eusebius bishop calleth Paulinus his fellow bishop his Lord which is absurd and condemned off him self Now I haue shewed him how bishopes were called most honorable Lordes he hath gotten two or three places where are found titles to the same effect which is idle seing that was confessed To my answer that Lorde vvith them vvas no other title then might be gyuen to a man off meane degree he saith most honorable Lord was onely gyuen to those in great autoritie which is onely said and may easely be confuted in that Alexander bishop off Alexandria the Metropolitane citie vvriting to all the church ministers not bishops onely called them most honorable fellovv ministers That he saith it was not grudged at then that bishops were called by the same titles that Princes ys very plaine language and needeth no commentarie to shew the meaning sauing that he durst not vtter all For if he would haue applied his place he shoulde haue saide yt was not grudged at then that bishops vvere called by more loftie titles then th Emperours seing the title he presseth for the bishops is most precious Lordes and the Emperour as he saith vvas onely called Lord. That the house off salutations was within the boundes off the churche appeareth not in Theodoret. His reason because the houses perteining to the bishoprick were nere the churche is weake For althowgh all howses perteining to the bishoprik were neere yet there might be some neere not perteining therto Hâ—â—beit if it were belonging to the church in that vvord there is no such note off excellency wherby yt deserueth to be the porters lodge of our bishops palaces To that off the bishops bestovving the church goods vpon loitering seruing men vvhich shoulde be bestovved vpon the vniuersities and poore bothe ministers and other he saith and onely saith that their number off seruing men tendeth to the defense off the realme honour off the prince and their owne good education off the princes honour yt is answered strenght to the realme they can not be seing the men should be althowghe they were not nourished by the bishop especially seing the bishops howse is an vnfit schole to traine vp to vvarfare And if the former necessities were helped aÌ„d yt thowght meet that the church goods should serue the realm that vvay all see that yt would rise to more profit if some were nourished off them in profession off a Souldiour then that in waiting vpon the white Rochet they should rather become vvhite liuered then fashioned for that seruice Beside that the bishops countenaÌ„ce being so profitable as yt is made and placed a greate parte in this suite off men it is manifest that his pompe houlding diuers at home which otherwise might be in the field weakeneth rather then strenghneth the realme For the education they get vnder them the corrupte religion of some the wante of Catechising others ignorant in the principles of religion the leudnes of diuers the idlenes off the most parte which is in the eies of all giue to plentifull a confutation off that parte wherin let the reader obserue how vnmeet they be to gouern dioceses and Prouinces which haue their proper houses so euil ordered especially seing the Apostel vvill not truste him vvith one parishe vvhich ruleth not his owne howse vvel And the trwth ys that the church mynistery is of that trauaill and care that yt vvill not suffer the bishops gyftes be they neuer so greate to be spente in the houshoulding and masterlike charge off suche a nomber vvhich vvas no doubt one cause why bothe the scripture and the olde Canons shut owt the bishops from this pompe Where he saith the vniuersities ministers and poore may otherwise be prouided for when that ys browght to pas and in suche sorte as a sufficient nomber â—f learned men may be nourced vp to fournish bothe the churche off ther ministers and coÌ„men wealth off her magistrates the ouerplus may as M. Hoopers counsail is goo to maintenance off Souldiours or other necessary vses aduised off by the common vvealthe That the canons browght against the bishops pomp reache to vniuersitie colledges forasmuch as there were none such then as we haue now ys vntrwe considering that with other vniuersities euery bishops howse vvas as hathe bene shewed a colledge off Students in diuinitie and yt ys otherwise vnsufficient For I reason not againste their pompe because yt was not vsed in times paste but because yt was forbidden And if he can shew the reuenews off Colledges forbidden by the Godly councels then yt had heue somewhat he saith Ad also that if the pompe and ryot off Colledges werelike the bishops yt were likewise worthie to be spoken against Ierome cited against the pompe of bishops receiueth answer that he spake agaynste the abuse and not thuse Ieromes wordes be these let the readeriudge off his meanig yt is a foule shame that before the gates off pore and crucified Christe VVho also eate of other mens meate the Consuls Sergeantes and Gard shoulde vvaite and that the ruler off the Prouince shoulde dine better at thy hovvse then in the palace But if thovv pretend to do these thinges to th ende to beg for the poore the Secular iudge vvill giue more to a churche man vvhich kepethe measure and is frugall then to one vvhich is riche and reuerence more thy holines then thy riches Or if the ruler be suche that he vvill not hearken to the churchmen ctauing for the poores reliefe but vvhen he is amongest the cupps I vvill gladly vvant suche a benefit and beg off Christ in stede off the iudge vvho is better and soner able to helpe then the iudge I omit that he inueighethe against a church maÌ„ which poore before becometh riche by the church aÌ„d liuing very homely before after vsethe delicate fare with other thinges to that ende Whether this were one cause off the bishops stately pompe that certeine noble and riche men receâ—â—ed to the mynistery and liuing somvvhat like their former estates others assaied to be like vnto them whether an other cause were for that it being amongest the heathen priests