whether a man consider the schollers that learne or the scholemaisters whych teach or the orders appoynted for the gouernment of the scholes they shall be found to be rather ciuill then ecclesiasticall and therfore can not come in stead of any ecclesiasticall ministery If the byshop do meane that they come in place of the gift of tongues and knowledge of the gospell that was first geuen miraculously I graunt it and then it maketh nothing to this question As for byshops they can not come in place of apostles or prophets for as much as they were when the Apostles Euangelists and Prophets were and are one of those ministeries whych S. Paul mentioneth in the. 4. to the Ephesians being the same that is the pastor There remaineth therfore the archbyshop whych if he came in place of the Prophets and apostles as the byshop sayeth howe commeth it to pas that the byshop sayeth by and by oute of the authoritye of Erasmus that Titus was an archbyshop for at that time there was bothe apostles prophets and Euangelists If it be so therfore that the archbyshop must supply the want of apostles c. howe commeth it to pas he wayteth not hys time whilest they were deade but commeth in like vnto one whych is borne oute of time and like the vntimely and hasty frute whych is seldome or neuer wholesome And for one to come into the apostles or prophets place requireth the authority of him whych ordained the apostles c. whych is the Lord and hys institution in hys word whych is that whych we desire to be shewed But heereof I haue spoken before at large The necessity of Deanes I do not acknowledge and I haue already spoken of them Touching Prebendaries I shall haue occasion to speake a worde heereafter For Earles and Dukes and such like titles of honor they are ciuil neither doth it folowe that because there may newe titles or newe offices be brought into the ciuile gouernement that therefore the same may be attempted in the church For God hath left a greater liberty in instituting thyngs in the common wealth then in the churche For for so much as there be diuers common wealthes and diuers formes of common wealthes and all good it falleth oute that the offices and dignityes whych are good in one common wealth are not good in an other as those which are good in a Monarchie are not good in Aristocratie and those which are good in Aristocratie are not good in a populare state But that can not be sayde of the churche whych is but one and vniforme and hathe the same lawes and forme of gouernment throughout the worlde In common wealths also there are conuersions one forme being changed into an other whych can not be in the true church of god As for Erasmus authoritye whych sayeth that Titus was an archbyshop I haue answeared to it And whereas Chrysostome sayeth that the iudgement of many byshops was committed to Titus I haue declared in what sorte that is to be vnderstanded and yet vpon those words the byshop can hardly conclude that whych he doth that Titus had the gouernment of many byshops For it is one thing to say the iudgement of many was committed vnto Titus and an other thyng to say that he had the gouernement of many The answer of the byshop vnto the fourth supposed reason pertaineth vnto an other question that is whether ecclesiasticall persons ought to exercise ciuil iurisdiction whervnto I will answer by Gods grace when I come to speake vpon occasion of M. Doctors boke of that question In the meane season I wil desire the reader to consider what weake grounds the archbyshop and archdeacon stand vpon seeing that the byshop of Sarum being so learned a man and of so great reading coulde say no more in their defence whych notwythstanding in the controuersies agaynst D. Harding is so pithy and so plentifull Now I haue shewed how little those things whych M. doctor bringeth make for proufe of that wherfore he alledgeth them I will for the better vnderstanding of the reader set downe what were the causes why the archbishops were first ordained and what were their prerogatiues and preheminēces before other byshops and the estate also of the old byshops whych liued in those times wherin althoughe there were great corruptions yet the church was in some tollerable estate to the entent it may appeare partly how little nede we haue of them now and partly also howe greate difference there is betweene oures and them Of the names of Metropolitane it hath bene spoken howe that he shoulde not be called the cheefe of priests or the high priest or byshop of byshops nowe I will sette downe hys office and power whych he had more then the byshops In the councell of Antioche it appeareth that the byshop of the metropolitane seate called Synodes propounded the matters whych were to be handled c. the archbyshop doth not nowe call Synodes but the Prince dothe for as much as there is no conuocation wythout a parliament he doth not propound the matters and gather the voyces but an other chosen whych is called prolocutor therfore in the respect that an archb metropolitane was first ordained we haue no neede of an archb or metropolitane Againe an other cause also appeareth there whych was to see that the byshoppes kepte them selues wythin their owne dioceses and brake not into an others diocese But first this may be done wythout an archbyshop and then it is not done of the archb hym selfe geuing licences vnto the wandring ministers to go throughout not so few as a dosen dioceses therefore the office of an archb is not necessarye in thys respecte and if it were yet it must be other then it is nowe Againe the cause whye the metropolitane differed from the rest and whye the calling of the Synode was geuen to hym as it appeareth in the same coūcel was for that the greatest concourse was to that place and most assembly of men whervnto also may be added for that there was the best commodity of lodging of vitailing and for that as it appeareth in other councels it was the place and seate of the Empire But wyth vs neyther the greatest concourse nor assemblye of men nor the greatest commodity of lodging and vitailing neyther yet the seate of the kingdome is in the metropolitane city therefore wyth vs there is no suche cause of a metropolitane or archbyshop In the councel of Carthage holden in Cyprians time it appeareth that no byshop had authority ouer an other to compell an other or to condemne an other but euery byshop was left at hys owne liberty to answer vnto God and to make hys accompt vnto Christ and if any thing were done against any bishop it was done by the consent of all the byshops in the prouince or as many as coulde conueniently assemble Therefore Cyprian whych was the metropolitane byshop had then no authoritye ouer the rest
there shoulde be diuers pastors elders or byshops in euery congregation Sathan wrought first that there should be but one in euery churche thys was no doubt the first step Afterwardes he pushed further and stirred vp diuers not to content them selues to be byshops of one church but to desire to be byshops of a diocese whervnto although it seemeth that there was resistance in that it is sayd that it was decreed often yet in the end this wicked attempt preuailed and thys was an other step Then were there archbishops of whole prouinces whych was the third stayer vnto the seat of antichriste Afterwards they were Patriarks of one of the .iiij. corners of the whole world the whole church being assigned to the iurisdiction of fower that is to saye of the Romaine Constantinopolitane Antiochene and Alexandrine byshops And these fower stayers being layd of Sathan there was but an easy stride for the B. of Rome into that chaire of pestilence wherin he nowe sitteth Hauing now showed howe thys Lordly estate of the byshop began and vpon what a rotten ground it is builded I come to shew how farre the byshops in our time are for their pompe and outward statelines degenerated from the byshops of elder times And heere I call to remembraunce that whych was spoken of the poore estate of Basile and Theodorete and if M. Doctor will say as he doth in deede in a certaine place that thē was a time of persecution and this is a time of peace it is easely answeared that although Basill were vnder persecution yet Theodorete liued vnder good emperors But that shall appeare better by the Canons whych were rules geuen for the byshops to frame them selues by In the. 4. councell of Carthage it is decreed that the byshops should haue a little house neare vnto the church what is thys compared wyth so many faire large houses and wyth the princely palace of a byshop And in the same councel it is decreed that he shoulde haue the furniture and stuffe of hys house after the commen sorte and that hys table and diet should be pore and that he should get him estimation by faithfulnes and good conuersation And in an other councell that the byshops shoulde not giue them selues to feastes but be content wyth a little meate Let these byshops be compared wyth oures whose chambers shine wyth gilt whose walles are hanged wyth clothes of Auris whose cupbordes are loden wyth plate whose tables and diets are furnished wyth multitude and diuersity of dishes whose daily dinners are feastes Let them I say be compared together and they shall be founde so vnlike that if those olde byshops were aliue they wold not know each other For they would thinke that oures were princes and oures woulde thinke that they were some hedge priests not worthy of their acquaintance or fellowshyp In the same councell of Carthage it was decreed that no byshop sitting in any place should suffer any minister or elder to stand Nowe I will report me to themselues how thys is kept and to the pore ministers whych haue to do with them and come before them The byshops in times past had no tayle nor trayne of men after them and thought it a slaunder to the gospell to haue a number of men before and behynde them And therefore is Paulus Sam of atenus noted as one that brought relygion into hatred and as one that seemed to take delight rather to be a captaine of two hundreth then a byshoppe because he had gotten him a sort of seruing men to waight on hym An other example not vnlyke and likewyse reprehended is in Ruffine of one Gregory a byshop Now in our dayes it is thought a commendation to the byshop a credite to the gospell if a byshop haue 30. 40. 60. or moe wayting of hym some before some behynde whereof three partes of them set apart the carying of a dishe vnto the table haue no honest or profitable calling to occupy themselues in two houres of the day to the filling of the church and commōwealth also with all kynde of disorders and greater incommodities then I minde to speake of because it is not my purpose And heere I will note an other cause which brought in this pompe and princely estate of byshoppes wherin although I will say more in a worde for the pompeous estate then M. Doctor hath done in all hys treatise yet I will shew that although it were more tollerable at the first now it is by no meanes to be borne with * In the ecclesiasticall story we read that the inscriptions of dyuers epystles sent vnto byshops were timiotatois kyriois We read also of aspasticon oicon house of salutations which Ambrose byshop of Millain had As for the title of most honorable Lordes it was not so great nor so stately as the name of a Lord or knight in our country for all those that know the maner of the speach of the Grecians do well vnderstand how they vsed to call euery one of any meane countenaunce in the common wealth where he lyued kyrion that is Lorde so we see also the Euangelistes vse the worde Kyrios to note a meane person as when Mary in the. 20. of Iohn thinking that our sauiour Christ had bene the keper of the garden calleth hym Kyrion So likewise in Fraunce they call euery one that is gentilman or hath any honest place Monseur and so they will say also fainng your honour Now we know thys word Lord in our countrey is vsed otherwise to note some great personage eyther by reason of birth or by reason of some high dignitie in the common wealth which he occupyeth and therfore those titles although they were somewhat excessiue yet were they nothing so swelling and stately as oures are And as touching Ambrose house albeit the word doth not employ so great gorgeousnes nor magnificence of an house as the palaces and other magnificall buildinges of our byshoppes yet the cause whereupon thys rose doth more excuse Ambrose who being taken from great wealth and gouernment in the common wealth geuing ouer hys office dyd retayne hys house and that which hee had gotten But our byshops doe maynteyne thys pompe and excesse of the charges of the church with whose goodes a great number of idle loytering seruing men are mayntayned which ought to be bestowed vpon the ministers which want necessary finding for their families and vpon the poore and mayntenance of the vniuersities As for these riotous expences of the church goodes when many other mynisters want and of making great dynners and entertayning great Lordes and maiestrates and of the answere to them that say they do helpe the church by thys meanes I will referre the reader to that which Ierome wryteth in a certayne place where thys is handled more at large By thys which I haue cyted it appeareth what was one cause of thys excesse and stately pompe of the byshops namely that
certeine noble and rich men being chosen to the ministerie and lyuing somewhat like vnto the former estates wherein they were before others also assayed to be like vnto them as we see in that poynt the nature of man is too ready to follow if they see any example before theyr eyes But there is no reason because Ambrose and such lyke dyd so therefore our byshops shoulde do it of the churches costes Nor because Ambrose and such like dyd tary in their trim houses which they had built them selues of theyr owne charge before they were byshops that therefore they shuld come out of theyr chambers or narow houses into courtes and palaces builded of the churches costes An other reason of thys pompe and statelynes of the byshoppes was that which almost brought in all poyson and popishe corruption into the church and that is a foolish emulation of the maners and fashions of the Idolatrous nations For as thys was the craft of sathan to draw away the Israelites from the true seruice of God by theyr fond desire they had to conforme them selues to the fashyons of the gentiles so to punish vnthankefull receiuing of the gospell and to fulfill the Prophesies touching the man of sinne the Lord suffered those that professed Christ to corrupt theyr wayes by the same sleyght of the Deuill Galerianus Maximinus the Emperor to the end that he myght promote the Idolatry and superstition whereunto he was addicted chose of the choysest magistrates to be priestes and that they myght be in great estimation gaue eche of them a trayne of men to follow them And the christians and christian Emperours thinking that that would promote the christian relygion that promoted superstition and not remembring that it is often times abhomynable before God which is esteemed in the eyes of men endeuoured to make theyr byshops encounter and match with those Idolatrous priestes and to cause that they should not be inferior to them in wealth and outward pompe And therfore I conclude that seing the causes and fountaynes from whence thys pompe and statelynes of byshops haue come are so corrupt and naught the thing it selfe which hath rysen of such causes can not be good And thus will I make an end leauing to the consideration and indifferent waying of the indifferent reader how true it is that I haue before propounded that our Archbyshops Metropolitanes Archdeacons Byshops haue besides the names almost nothing common with those which haue bene in elder tymes before the sunne of the gospell began to be maruellously darkned by the stincking mistes which the deuill sent forth out of the bottomles pit to blynde the eyes of men that they shoulde not see the shame and nakednes of that purpled whore which in the person of the cleargy long before she gat into her seate prepared her selfe by paynting her wrythen face with the couloures of these gorgeous titles and with the shew of magnifycall and worldly pompe For the deuill knew well enough that if he should haue sette vp one only byshoppe in that seate of perdition and left all the rest in that simplicitie wherein God had appoynted them that hys eldest sonne shoulde neyther haue had any way to gette into that and when he had gotten it yet being as it were an owle amongst a sort of birdes shoulde haue bene quickly discouered But I haue done only thys I admonishe the reader that I doe not allow of all those thinges which I before alleaged in the comparison betwene our Archbyshoppes and the Archbyshops of olde tyme or our byshoppes and theirs Only my entent is to shew that although there were corruptions yet in respect of ours they be much more tollerable and that it might appeare how smale cause there is that they should alleage theyr examples to confirme the Archbyshops and Byshops that now are Concerning the offices of commissionership and how vnmeete it is that mimisters of the worde should exercise them and how that the worde of God doth not permitte any such confusion of offices there shal be by Gods grace spoken of it afterwarde To your answere also vnto the places of S. Mathew and Luke the reply is made before The place of the fourthe of the first to the Corinthyans is well alledged for it teacheth a moderate estymation of the mynisters and a meane betwene the contempt and excessiue estymation neyther can there be any redyer way to breede that disorder which was amongst the Corinthyans as to say I holde of such a one and I of such a one and I of such an other then to sette vp certayne mynisters in so hyghe Titles and great shew of worldly honoure For so commeth it to passe that the people will saye I beleeue my Lord and my Lord archbyshoppe whatsoeuer oure parson say for they bee wyse men and learned as wee see it came to passe amongst the Corrinthyans For the Apostles because they hadde a shewe and outwarde pompe of speache they caryed away the people For althoughe Saynt Paule sayeth that some sayde I holde of Paule I holde of Apollo I of Cephas yet as it appeareth in an other place they helde one of thys braue eloquent teacher an other of that For hee translated these speaches vnto hym and hys fellowes by a fygure All that rule is tyrannycall whiche is not lawfull and is more then it oughte to bee and therfore the place of Saynt Peter is fitly alleaged whereof also I haue spoken some thing before You are you say of Hemingius mynde and thincke that thys opynion smelleth of Anabaptisme I haue shewed how you haue depraued and corrupted Hemingius and desire you to shew some better reason of your opynion autos ephe will not suffice vs You say that if we had once obtayned equalitie amongst the cleargie we would attempt it in the laitie In what starre doe you see that Maister Doctor Moyses sayth that if a man speake of a thing to come and it come not to passe as he hath spoken that that man is a false Prophet if your prophesie come not to passe you know your iudgement already out of Moyses The Pharisies when our sauiour Christ inueighed agaynst their ambytion accused hym that he was no freende to Cesar and went about to discredite hym with the cyuill Magistrate you shall apply it your selfe you will needes make the Archbyshoppe c. neyghboures vnto the cyuill Magistrates and yet they almost dwell as farre a sonder as Rome and Ierusalem and as Syon and S. Peters Church there so that the house of the archbyshoppe may bee burnt sticke and stone when not so much as the smoke shall approche the house of the cyuill magistrate In the. 116. page for the authoritie of the archbyshoppe is alleaged the nynthe Canon of the Councell of Antioch which I haue before alleaged to proue how farre different the authoritie of the Metropolitane in those times was from that which is now For there the Councell sheweth that euery Byshoppe
of the house of the Lorde whych by his manifest commaundement ought to be done wyth all spede then besides that they be very vncunning builders whych can not mende the faultes wythout ouerthrow of all especially when as the fault is not in the foundation they must remembre that as the meane whych is vsed to gather the children of God is called a building so is it called a planting And therfore as dead twigs riotous and superfluous braunches or whatsoeuer hindreth the groweth of the vine tree may be cut of wythout roting vp the vine so the vnprofitable things of the church may be taken away without any ouerthrow of those things which are well established And seeing that Christ and Beliall can not agree it is straunge that the pure doctrine of the one the corruptions of the other should cleaue so fast togither that pure doctrine can not be wyth her safetie seuered from the corruptions when as they are rather like vnto that part of Daniels image which was compounded of clay and iron therfore could not cleaue or sticke one with an other It is further sayde that the setters forwarde of thys cause are contentious and in mouing questions giue occasion to the papists of slaundring the religion and to the weake of offence But if it be found to be both true which is propounded and a thing necessary about which we contende then hath thys accusation no grounde to stande on For peace is commended to vs with these conditions * if it be possible if it lye in vs Now it is not possible it lyeth not in vs to conceale the truth * we can do nothing agaynst it but for it It is a prophane saying of a prophane man that an vniust peace is better then a iust warre It is a dyuine saying of an Heathen man Agatheâ—d eris hede brotoisi It is good to contende for good thinges The papistes haue no matter of reioysing seeing they haue greater and sharper controuersies at home and seing thys tendeth both to to the further opening of theyr shame thrusting out of theyr remnantes which yet remayne among vs The weake may not be offended considering the euen in the church of God and among those of the church there hath bene as great varieties of iudgementes as these are For what waightier controuersyes can there be then whether we shall ryse agayne or no whether circumcision were necessary to be obserued of those which beleued And yet the first was amongst the church of the * Corinthes the other was first in * Ierusalem and Antioche and after in the churches of * Galatia and yet they the churches and that the true relygion which was there professed And it is to be remembred that these controuersyes for the most part are not betwene many For sondry of those thinges which are comprehended in the answere to the Admonition haue as I am perswaded few fauourers of those especially which are of any stayed or sounder iudgement in the scriptures and haue sene or red of the gouernment and order of other churches so that in deede the father of that answere excepted we haue thys controuersy oftentymes rather with the papistes then with those which professe the gospell as we do And whereas last of all it is sayde that thys procedeth of enuy of singularitie and of popularitie although these be no sufficient reasons agaynst the truth of the cause which is neyther enuyous singular nor popular and althoughe they be suche as myght be seuerally by great lykelyhodes and probalyties refuted yet because the knowledge of these thinges pertayneth only to God which is the searcher of the hart and raynes and for auoyding of too muche tediousnesse we will rest in his iudgement tary for the day wherein the secretes of hartes shall be made manyfest And yet all men do see how vniustly we be accused of singularity which propound nothing that the scriptures do not teache the wryters bothe olde and new for the most part affirme the examples of the primitiue churches and of those which are at these dayes confirme All these accusations as well agaynst the cause as the fauourers thereof albeit they be many and dyuers yet are they no other then which haue bene long sithens in the Prophets Apostles and our sauior Christes and now of late in our tymes obiected agaynst the trueth and the professors therof And therefore as the sunne of the truth then appeared brake through all those cloudes which rose agaynst it to stoppe the lyght of it so no doubt thys cause being of the same nature will haue the same effect And as all those slaunders could not bryng the truth in disgrace with those that loued it so the children of the truth through these vntrue reportes will neyther leaue the loue of thys cause which they haue already conceaued nor yet cease to enquire dyligently and to iudge indifferently of those surmises which are put vp agaynst it Moreouer seing that we haue once ouercomed all these lets and clymed ouer them when they were cast in our way to hynder vs from coming from the grosse darknes of popery vnto the gloryous lyght of the gospell there is no cause why now they should staye our course to further perfection considering that neyther the style is hygher nowe then it was before being the very selfe same obiections and in all thys tyme we ought so to haue growne in the knowledge of the truth that in stead of being then able to leape ouer a hedge we should now haue our feete so prepared by the gospell that they should be as the fecte of a hynde hable to surmount euen a wall if neede were The summe of all is that the cause may be looked vpon with a single eye without all miste of partialitie may be heard with an indifferent care without the waxe of preiudice the argumentes of both sides may be waighed not with the chaungeable waightes of custome of tyme of men which notwithstanding Popishe excepted shall be shewed to be more for the cause then agaynst it but with the iust balances of the incorruptible and vnchangeable worde of God. And I humbly beseeche the Lord to encrease in vs the spirite of knowledge and iudgement that we may discerne thinges which differ one from an other and that we may be syncere and wythout offence vntill the day of Christ The author to the reader I Am humbly to craue at thy hand gentill reader that thou wouldest vouchsafe dyligently and carefully to compare M. Doctors answer and my reply both that thou mayst the better vnderstand the truth of the cause and that the vntempered speches of hym especially that whyppeth other so sharply for them which I haue in a maner altogether passed by and hys lose conclusions which I haue to auoyde tedyousnes not so fully pursued may the better appeare Which thing as I craue to be done through the whole booke so chefely I desire it may
of the poore or of the vniuersitie and that that exces is the cause of diuers disorders in those persons that haue it but that they could not preache truely when they preached whych had great liuings I for my part neuer heard it I thinke you would not be exempted from reprehension of that wherin you fault and therfore I knowe not what you meane by these words the they did not those things them selues which they taught others we profes no such perfection in our liues but that we are oftentimes behinde a great deale in doing of that whych is taught to be our dueties to doe and therefore thinke it necessary that we should be reprehended and shewed our faultes Whereas you say that the Anabaptists accused the ministers for geuing too much to the Magistrates I haue shewed what we geue and if it be too little shew vs and we will amend our fault I assure you it greueth me and I am euen in the beginning weary of turning vp thys dunge and refuting so vaine and friuolous slaunders wythout all shewe and face of truthe and therfore I will be breefe in the rest To the thirde We praise God for this reformation so farre forthe as it is agreeable vnto the word of God we are glad the word of God is preached that the sacraments are ministred that whych is wanting we desire it may be added that whych is ouermuche cutte of and we are not ashamed to profes that we desire it may be done according to the institution of the churches in the Apostles time You your selfe confes that excommunication is abused that no amendment of life appeareth since the preaching of the gospel is an old and generall complaint of all godly ministers in all churches and in all tunes * Esay preached this in the church and of the whole churche and further that they brought for the rotten frute Dauid that the faithfull people were deminished out of the lād that there was none that did good no not one And diuers other of the Prophets haue made greuouser complaints and great charges against the people of God and yet were no Anabaptists nor in the way to Anabaptisme If there be none that eyther haue wrytten or spoken that the church of England is no more the true Churche of Christ then the papisticall churche then besides that there is no truthe in youre tongue there seemeth to be no shame in your forheade if there be any it standeth your good name in hand that you bring them out To the fourth If some of those whych fauor this cause haue ben ouercaryed in part to do things which might haue ben more cōueniently ordered it is against reason that you should therfore charge those which fauor thys cause that you oppugne You would thinke you had wrong if because some of those that fauor that which you fauor in this matter be either free wil men or hold consubstantiation in the Sacrament you shuld be chalenged as free will men or maintainers of consubstantiation If those metings whych they had were permitted vnto them by them that haue authoritie I see nothing why they may not seeke to serue God in puritie and les mixture of hurtfull ceremonies If they were not permitted yet your name of conuenticles whych agreed to the Anabaptists is too lighte and contemptuous to set forth those assemblies wherin I thinke you wil not deny but that the word of God and his sacraments were ministred take you heede that these so reprochfull speaches which you throw out against men reache not vnto God A softer word would haue better becommed you To the fifth I answere as vnto the last clause of the thirde article To the sixth We pretend it not but we propound it and herein we call God to witnes agaynst our owne soules To the seuenth If you do not these things which we say not we wil rather do thē with the Anabaptists then leaue them vndone with you Of our simple heart meaning in thē we haue before proteste◠In the meane season we wil paciently abide vntill the Lord bring our * rightuousnes in thys behalfe vnto light and our lust dealing as the none day Touching our sighing and seldome or neuer laughing you giue occasion after to speake of it vnto the which place I reserue the answer To the eight We are no Stoikes that we should not be touched with the feeling of our grefes if our complaintes be excessiue shewe them and we will abridge them What errors we defend and how you maintaine your part by the word of God it will appeare in the discourse of your boke To the ninthe Their finding fault wythout cause in the ceremonies of baptisme can not barre vs from finding fault where there is cause We allowe of the baptisme of children and hope throughe the goodnes of God that it shall be farre from vs euer to condemne it But to let your slaunderous tong go all the strings wherof ye seme to haue losed that it may the more frely be throwne out and walke against the innocent Where where is the modesty you require in other of not entring to iudge of things vnknowne which dare insinuate to the magistrate that it is lyke they will condemne childrens baptisme which doe baptise them preach they should he baptized and whych did neuer by sillable letter or countenaunce mislike of their baptisme To the. 10. 11. and. 12. I answer as vnto the fifth and for further answer I will refer the reader to those places where occasion shall be geuen to speake of these thyngs againe To the. 13. This is a braunch of the. 8. and added for nothing else but to make vp the tale To the. 14. We feare no shedding of bloud in her maiesties dayes for maintaining that whych we hope we shal be able to proue out of the word of God and wherin we agree with the best reformed churches but certaine of the things which we stād vpon are such as that if euery heare of our head were a life we ought to aforde them for the defence of them VVe bragge not of any the least abilitie of suffering but in the feare of God we hope of the assistance of God his holy spirite to abide whatsoeuer he shall thinke good to try vs with either for profession of thys or any other hys truth whatsoeuer To the. 15. VVe make no seperation from the church we go about to seperate all those thyngs that offend in the church to the end that we being all knit to the sincere truth of the gospell might afterwards in the same bond of truth be more nearely and closely ioyned together VVe endeuor that euery church hauing a lawfull pastor whych is able to instruct all myght be ranged to their proper churches wheras diuers onles they go to other then their owne parishes are like to heare few sermons in the yeare so farre are we from withdrawing men from their ordinary churches and pastors Let
many meete and where be the examples of the olde church which had besydes the temple at Ierusalem erected vppe synagogues in euery towne to heare the worde of God and mynister the cyrcumcysion what is become of the commaundement of our sauioure Christ whych * wylled his discyples that they should preache openly and vpon the house toppes that which they heard in the eare of hym and secreately and howe doe we obserue the example of our sauyour Christ who to delyuer hys doctryne from all suspytion of tumultes and other dysorders sayd that he preached openly in the temple and in the synagogues albeit the same were very daungerous vnto hym the example of the * Apostles that dyd the same For as for the tyme of persecution when the church dare not nor is not meete that it should shewe it selfe to the ennemy no not then is the word of God nor the sacraments priuately preached or ministred neyther yet ought to be For althoughe they be done in the house of priuate man yet because they are ought to be ministred in the presence of the congregation there is neyther priuate preaching nor priuate baptisme For like as where so euer the Queenes maiestie lyeth there is the Courte althoughe it be in a Gentleman hys house so wheresoeuer the churche meeteth that place is not to be holden priuate as touching the prayers preachings and sacraments that shal be there ministred So that I denye vnto you that the churche hathe power to ordaine at her pleasure whether preaching or ministring of sacramentes should be priuate or publicke when they ought not to be but where the church is and the church ought not to assemble if it be not letted by persecution but in open places And when it is driuen from them those places where it gathereth it selfe togither although they be otherwise priuate yet are they for the time that the churches doe there assemble and for respect of the worde and sacraments that are there ministred in the presence of the church publike places And so you see those whome you charge slaunderously wyth conuenticles are faine to glase vp the windowes that you open to secreate and priuate conuenticles The Answere from Nowe if either godly councels vnto I trust M. Caluins iudgement will weigh HEere are brought in Iustin Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian and councels as dumme persons in the stage only to make a shewe and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersye there is no doubt but M. Doctor would haue made them speake For when he placeth the greatest strength of hys cause in antiquitie he would not haue passed by Iustin Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian being so auncient and taken Augustin whych was a great time after them And if the godly councels coulde haue helped heere it is small wisedome to take Augustine and leaue them For I thinke he might haue learned that amongst the authorities of mē the credite of many is better then of one and that thys is a generall rule that as the iudgement of some notable personage is loked vnto in a matter of debate more then theirs of the common sorte so the iudgement of a councell where many learned men be gathered together caryeth more likelyhode of truthe wyth it then the iudgement of one man although it be but a prouinciall councell much more then if it be a generall and therfore you do your cause great iniurie if you could alledge them and do not Thys is once to be obserued of the reader throughout your whole boke that you haue well prouided that you would not be taken in the trip for misalledging the scriptures for that onles it be in one or two poynts we heare continually instead of Esay and Ieremy S. Paule and S. Peter and the rest of the Prophets and Apostles S. Augustin and S. Ambrose kai to en te phake myron Dionysius Areopagita Clement c. And therfore I can not tell wyth what face we can call the papistes from their antiquitie councels and fathers to the triall of the scriptures who in the controuersies whych rise amongst our selues flie so farre from them that it wanteth not much that they are not banished of your part from the deciding of all these controuersies And if thys be a sufficient proofe of things to say suche a Doctor sayde so suche a councell decreed so there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne nothing so false but I can make true And well assured I am that by their meanes the principall groundes of our faith may be shaken And therfore because you haue no proofe in the worde of God we comfort our selues assured that for so muche as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Bishops and of other things which are in question be not in heauen that they wil fall and come to the ground from whence they were taken Nowe it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earthe and that they are of men and not of God The answearer goeth about to proue that they came yet out of good earthe and from good men whych if he had obtained yet he may well know that it is no good argument to proue that they are good For as the best earth bringeth forth weedes so do the best men bring forth lies and errors But let vs heare what is brought that if thys visarde and shewe of truthe be taken away all men may perceiue howe good occasion we haue to complaine and howe iust cause there is of reformation In the first place of S. Augustine there is nothing against any thing whych we hold for thys that the church may haue thyngs not expressed in the scripture is not againste that it oughte to haue nothing but that may be warranted by the scripture For they may be according to the scripture and by the scripture whych are not by plaine termes expressed in the scripture But against you it maketh muche ouerturneth all your building in this boke For if in those things whych are not expressed in the scripture that is to be obserued of the Church whych is the custome of the people of God and decree of oure forefathers then howe can these things be varyed according to time place persons whych you say should be when as that is to be retained which the people of God hath vsed the decrees of the forefathers haue ordained And thē also how can we do safelier then to folow the apostles customes and the churches in their time which we are sure are our for fathers the people of god Besides that how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the papists in such things which were neither the people of God nor our forefathers I wil not enter now to discus whether it were wel done to fast in al places according to the custome of the place
For if it be false as it is most false then there is no difference heere betwene the Apostles times and oures Doth not the whole course of the scriptures declare and hath it not bene proued that there was none that tooke vppon hym the ministerie in the churche but by lawfull calling what is thys but to cast dust and dirte of the fairest and beautifullest image that euer was to make a smokie disfigured euill proportioned image to seeme beautifull to ouerthrow the Apostles buildings of golde and siluer and precious stones to make a cottage of wode straw and stubble to haue some estymation which could haue none the other standing For in effecte so you doe when to vpholde a corrupte vse that came in by the tyrannie of the pope you goe about to discredite the orders and institutions which were vsed in the Apostles times and that with such manyfest vntruthes To the next section in the. 45. page Musculus also c. THe place is too common which you assigne you had I am sure the booke before you you might haue tolde where the place was and in what title But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate is answered by hym selfe in the same booke where he entreateth of the election of the ministers For going about as it seemeth to satisfie some of their ministers which were brought in doubt of their calling because they were not chosen by their churches speaking of the vse of the church in chusing their minister he sayth thus First it must be playnly cōfessed that the ministers were in times past chosen by consent of the people and ordayned and confirmed of the semores Secondarily that that forme of election was Apostolicall and lawfull Thirdly that it was conformable to the libertie of the churche and that thrusting the pastor vpon the church not being chosen of it doth agree to a church that is not free but subiect to bondage Fourthly that thys fourme of choise by the church maketh much bothe to that that the minister may gouerne hys flocke with a good conscience as also that the people may yeelde them selues to be eastyer ruled then when one commeth agaynst their willes vnto them And to conclude all these he sayeth that they are altogether certayne and such as can not be denyed After he sayth that the corrupt estate of the churche and religion driueth to alter this order and to call the election to certayne learned men which shoulde after be confirmed of the Prince And that it may yet more clearely appeare that hys iudgement is nothing lesse then to confirme thys election he setteth downe their election in Bernland which he approueth and laboureth to make good as one which although it doth not fully agree with the election of the prymitine churche yet commeth very neare vnto it As that not one man but all the ministers in the citie of Berne doe chuse a pastor when there is any place voyde Afterward he is sent to the Senate from the which if he be doubted of he is sent agayne to the ministers to be examined and then if they fynde him meete he is confirmed of the Senate which standeth of some number of the people and by the most part of their voyces By these things it appeareth that this election of the minister by the people is lawfull and Apostolike and confessed also by him that those that are otherwise bring with them subiection vnto the church and seruitude and cary a note and marke of corruption of religion Last of all that he goeth about to defende the election vsed in the churches where he was minister by this that it approched vnto the election in the primitiue Churche Nowe what cause there may bee that we should bring the church into bondage or take away that order wherby both the mynister may be better assured of hys calling and the people may the willinglyer submit them selues vnto their pastoures and gouernoures or what cause to depart from the Apostolike forme of the choise of the pastor being lawfull I confesse I know not and would be glad to learne To assigne the cause hereof vnto the christian magistrate to say that these things can not be had vnder hym as you vnder maister Muscuius name doe affirme is to doe great iniurie vnto the office of the magistrate which abridgeth not the liberty of the churche but defendeth it dimmisheth not the pastor his assurance of his calling but rather encreaseth it by establishing the ordinary callings only which in the time of persecution sometimes are not so ordinary withdraweth not the obediēce of the people from the pastor but vrgeth it where it is not constrayneth it wher it is not volūtary And seeing that also Musculus sayth that these forced elections are remedies for corruption of relygion and disordered states what greater dishonoure can there be done vnto the holye institution of God in the ciuile gouernoure then to say that these forced elections without the consent of the people must be where there is a christian Magistrate as thoughe there coulde be no pure religion vnder him when as in deede it may be easely vnder him pure which can hardly and with great daunger be pure without him And when as it is sayd that the churches consent should be had in the election of the minister we doe not denye the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill magistrate and the disanulling of them if the church in chusing and the ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man so that yet he doe not take away the libertie from the church of chusing a more conuenient man. So that you see that by Musculus your witnesse reasons this enforced election without the consent of the people is but corrupt and so ought not to be in the churche And that although it hath bene borne withall yet it must be spoken agaynst and the lawfull forme of election laboured for of all those that loue the truth and the sinceritie therof To the next section in the. 46. page NOw you would proue that thys election of ministers by one man was in the Apostles time But you haue forgotten your selfe which sayde a little before that this election by the church was not only in the Apostles times but also in the tyme of Cyprian now you say otherwise And if the election of the ministery by the church agree so wel with the time of persecution and when there is no christian Magistrate how commeth it to passe that in those dayes when persecution was so hotte and there were no such Magistrates that S. Paule would haue the election by one man and not by the church Besydes that if this be S. Paule hys commaundement that the byshop should only chuse the minister why doe you make it an indifferent thing and a thing in the power of the church to be varyed by times for this is a flarte commaundement Thus you see you throwe downe with one
hand as fast as you builde with the other But to answere directly to the place of the fifthe of the first to Timothe I saye first that S. Paule wryteth to Timothe and therefore instructeth hym what he should do for his parte in the appoynting of the minister If he had written to the whole Churche of Ephesus he would lykewise haue instructed them how they should haue behaued thē selues in that businesse If one do wryte vnto hys frende that hath interest in any election to take heede that he chuse none but such as are meete shall any man conclude therupon that none hath to doe in that election but he to whom that letter is writtē Then I say further that S. Paule attributeth that vnto Timothe that was common to moe with hym because he being the director and moderator of the election is sayde to doe that whiche many doe which thing I haue proued by dyuers examples both out of the scripture and otherwise before And euen in this imposition of handes it is manifestly to be shewed For that where as S. Paule sayth in the 2. Epistle that Timothe was ordayned by the putting on of hys hands vppon hym in the first Epistle he sayth that he was ordayned by the putting on of the handes of the eldership So that that which he in one place taketh to him selfe alone in the other he communicateth with moe And that he dyd it not him selfe alone it may appeare by those wordes which folow and communicate not with other mens sinnes as if he should saye if other will ordeyne insuffycient ministers yet be not thou caryed away with their example And further that his authoritie was equall with other elders of that church and that he had no superioritie aboue his fellowes it may appeare for that he sayth lay thy hands rashly of none where if he had had authoritie ouer the rest he would rather haue sayd suffer none to lay his handes rashly Agayne it is a fault in you that you can not distinguishe or put difference betweene the election and imposition of handes Last of all I answere that although this might agree to Timothe alone as in deede it can not yet it followeth not that euery Bishop may do so For Timothe was an Euangelist which was aboue a Bishop as hereafter shall better appeare And it is an euill argument to say the greater may do it therfore the lesse may do it The superiour therfore the inferioure If you were at any cost with producing your witnesses you should not be so vnwise to be so lauishe of them as to cite Ambrose and Chrisostome to proue a thing that none hath euer denyed For who denyeth that S. Paule doth not geue warning to Timothe to be circumspect If you meane to vse their testimonie to proue that he only made the elections they saye neuer a word for you if there be any thing cite it To the place of Titus I answere as to that of Timothe for there is nothing there but agreeth also to thys place And as for Ierome he hath nothing in that place as he hath in no other to proue that to the Bishop only doth belong the right of election of the minister I haue shewed you reasons before why it cā not be so taken of the sole election of the Bishop the church being shutte out If authoritie woulde doe any good in thys behalfe as it seemeth it ought seeing that all your proofe throughe out the whole booke is in the authorities of men which Aristotle calleth atechnas peiseis vncunning proofes I coulde sende you to maister Calum which teacheth that it is not to be thought that S. Paule woulde permit to Titus to ordayne byshoppes and ministers by hys owne authoritie when he hym selfe would not take so much vpon hym but ioyned hys with the voyces of the church But he peraduenture sauoureth not your tast and yet you woulde make men beleue sometimes that you make muche of hym if you can gette but one worde vnioynted and racked in peeces from the rest to make good your part If hee weyghe not with you you haue maister Musculus whome you take to bee a great patrone of youres in thys cause which dothe with greater vehemencie affirme the same thing that mayster Caluin sayth asking whether any man can beleeue that Paisle permitted in thys place to Titus or in the place before alledged to Timothe that they shoulde ordayne of theyr owne authoritie and by them selues when as Paule woulde not doe it but by the voyces and election of the churche In the ende you say it is the generall consent of all the learned fathers that it belongeth to the byshop to chuse the minister Because you acquaint my eares with such bolde and vntrue affirmations I can now the more paciently heare you thus vaunting your selfe as though you had all the fathers by heart and caryed them about with you wheresoeuer you went whereas if a man woulde measure you by the skill in them which you haue shewed heere he woulde hardly beleeue that you had redde the tenthe part of them Are all the learned fathers of that mynde I thinke then you would haue bene better aduised then to haue sette downe but one when as you know a matter in controuersie will not be tryed but by two or three witnesses vnlesse the Lord speake hym selfe and therefore you geue me occasion to suspect that because you cite but one you know of no more now let vs see what your one witnesse will depose in thys matter And fyrst of all you haue done more wisely then simply in that you haue altered Ieromes wordes For where hee sayeth wherein doth a byshoppe differ from an elder but only in ordayning you say a byshop doth excell all other mynisters c. I report me heere vnto your conscience whether you dyd not of purpose chaunge Ieromes hys sentēce because you wold not let the reader vnderstand what oddes is betweene S. Ieromes bishops in his dayes betwene our Lord Bishoppes For then the byshop had nothing aboue an elder or other minister but only the ordayning of the minister Now he hath a thousande parishes where the minister hath but one For the matters also of the substaunce of the ministerie the bishop now excommunicateth which the minister can not absolueth or receyueth into the church which the minister can not Besides diuers other things which are meere ciuill which the byshop doth and which neither byshop nor other minister ought to doe I say I reporte me to your conscience whether you altered Ieromes wordes to thys ende that you would keepe thys from the knowledge of your reader or no. For answere to the place it is an euill argument to saye the byshop had the ordayning of the minister Ergo he had the election of hym the contrary rather is a good argument the byshop had the ordayning of the minister therefore he had not the election of hym For ordination
not comely and agreeable to the simplicitie of the gospell of Christe crucified they may not be established Concerning your distinction wherby you lesten the idolatrie of the papistes I haue shewed the vanitie thereof But of thys matter you say you will speake againe In deede so you doe and againe wherin you confound the memorie and vnderstanding of the reader and declare your selfe not onlye ignorante of Aristotles rule of katholou proton whych is to speake of one thyng generally and once for all but euen to be voide of that order whych men haue commonly by the naturall logicke of reason Neither can you excuse your selfe in saying that the Admonition geueth you so often times occasion to speake of them and so to lay the faulte vpon it for that it being wrytten by diuers persons of the same matters whereof one knewe not of an others doing can not be blamed for the repetition of one thing twise when as you can not escape blame whych might haue gathered easely into one place y which is sayd of them in diuers Whych thing although it be not so easy for me to doe in your booke as it was for you to doe in theirs yet I will assay to doe it bothe in thys and in all other poyntes that folowe not thincking thereby to bring thys treatise of youres to any good order for that were to cast it new againe and then you would complaine of your minde peruerted but that I might remedy this so great disorder as farre as maye be done wythoute chaunging any thyng of that whych you haue set downe And if there be any other arguments touching any of these poyntes in other places whych I haue not gathered togither into one the fault is in thys that I could not bestowe so muche time in making a Harmonie of the things which are at so great discorde and then that whych is left out shall be answeared in place where I shall finde it Nowe let vs see M. Doctors deuteron ploun and second nauigation touching apparell whether it be any happier or haue any better succes then the first In the. 105. page M. Doctor to proue the vse of the surplice to draw out hys booke into some competent volume boroweth certen places of the examiner for answere wherevnto I will referre the reader to that which is answered vnto the examination as to a full and sufficient answere wherein I will rest and when M. Doctor hathe proued that which he sayth that it is but a childishe cauill he shall then heare further In the meane season it is but a slender Replie to so learned an answere that proueth bothe oute of other authors and out of those same whych the examiner citeth that by a white garment is meant a comely apparell and not slouēly to say it is but a childishe cauill whych a D. of Diuinitie and of xl yeares of age can not answer The place of Ierome vpon the. 44. of Ezechiel the more it be considered the more shall appeare the truthe of the answere Nowe I wil desire the reader to turne vnto the. 237. 238. 239. 240. 242. pages to see whether at thys third voyage M. doctor bringeth any better marchaundise Where first he surmiseth an vntruthe as though the admonition misliked of the taking away of the gray Amis where it sayeth only that there was les cause to take that away then the surplice c. Wherin there is nothing but the truthe sayde for because that was vsed but in few churches and but of few also in those few churches therfore if there were cause to take away that there was greater to take away the surplice And to take away the Amis out of the church and leaue the surplice c. is to heale a scratch and leaue a wound vnhealed Nowe whereas you say that we are alwayes Ad oppositum and that if the lawe commaunded straightly that we shoulde weare none of thys apparell that then we would weare if it should be answered againe that you doe Seruire scenae that is that you are a time seruer you see we mighte speake wyth more likelyhoode then you But we will not take as you doe the iudgement of God out of his handes but will attende paciently the reuelation and discouering of that whych is nowe hid bothe in you and in vs. And although you will graunt vs neither learning nor conscience yet you might aforde vs so muche witte as that we would not willingly and of purpose want those commodities of life whych we might otherwise enioy as wel as you if we had that gift of conformitie whych you haue Wheras you say that the accursed things of Iericho and the oxe that was fed to be sanctified vnto Baall and the woode consecrated vnto the Idoll were conuerted to the seruice of the liuing God when you shall proue that the surplice is so necessary to the seruice of God as gold and siluer and other mettal and as oxen and woode wherof the first sort were such as without the which the temple could not be builte the other suche as were expresly commaunded of God to be vsed in hys seruice then I will confesse that this place maketh some thing for you And yet if your copes and surplices c. shoulde haue suche a purgation by fire as those metalles had or euer the Lord would admit them into his treasure house and shuld be driuen to passe from popery vnto the gospel by the chimney the fire would make such wracke wyth them that they should neede haue better legs then your arguments to bring them into the church Moreouer do you not see heere that you haue not losed the knot but cutte it For the authors of the Admonition obiect the place of Esay and you obiecte againe the places of Deuteronomie and of the Iudges this is to oppose sword against sworde in stead that you shuld haue first holden out your buckler latched the blow of your aduersary As for churches it hath ben answered that they haue a profitable vse and therefore very euill compared with the surplice whych beside that it bringeth no profite hurteth also as is before sayde To be short sayth M. Doctor when he reciteth me almost a whole side word for word as he hath cited before wher he hath had his answere After this he setteth him selfe to proue that they edifye and that first by M. Bucers and M. Martyrs authoritye and yet in their wordes before alledged there is not a worde of edifying If he gather it of their wordes the answere is already made Then he bringeth reasons to proue it whereof in the first he seemeth to reason that because it is commaunded by a lawfull magistrate and lawfull authoritye therfore it edifieth As though a lawful magistrate doth nothing at any time vnlawfully or as thoughe a lawfull and a godly magistrate dothe not sometimes commaund things whych are inconuement and vnlawfull Saule was a lawfull magistrate and did commaund vnlawfull
must depose that the name of an archbyshop is not antychristian of whome as of Clement that went before and Anicetus which followeth after the common prouerbe may be verifyed Aske my fellow if I be a theefe And although the answerer be ashamed of hym and sayth therefore he will omit him yet euen very neede dryueth hym to bring hym in and to make hym speake the vttermost hee can And thys honest man sayth that Iames was the first archbyshop of Ierusalem But Eusebius sayth Iames was byshop not archbyshop of Ierusalem and appoynted by the apostles And in an other place he sayth that the apostles dyd appoynt after hys death Simeon the sonne of Cleophas byshop of Ierusalem And Ireneus sayeth that the apostles in all places appoynted byshops vnto the churches whereby it may appeare what an idle dreame it is of Clement Volusianus and Anacletus eyther that Peter dyd thys by his owne authoritie or that the primitiue churche was euer staynes wyth these ambytious tytles of patriarche prymate metropolytane or archbyshoppe when as the storyes make mention that thoroughe out euery churche not chery prouince not by Peter or Paule but by apostles a byshop not an archbyshop was appoynted And heere you put me in remembraunce of an other argument agaynst the archbyshop which I will frame after thys sorte If there shoulde be any archbyshop many place the same shoulde be eyther in respect of the persone or minister and hys excellencie or in respecte of the magnificence of the place but the most excellent mynisters that euer were in the most famous places were no archbyshops but byshops only therefore there is no cause why there shoulde be any archbyshop For if there were euer mynister of a congregation worthy that was Iames if there were euer any citte that ought to haue thys honor as that the mynister of it should haue a more honorable title then the mynisters of other cities and townes that was Ierusalem where the sonne of God preached and from whence the gospell issued out vnto all places And afterwarde that Ierusalem decayed and the church there Antioche was a place where the notablest men were that euer haue bene since which also deserued great honoure for that there the * disciples were first called christians but neyther was that called the first and cheefest church neyther the mynisters of it called the Arche or principal byshoppes And Eusebius to declare that thys order was firme and durable sheweth that S. Iohn the Apostle which ouer lyued the residue of the Apostles ordayned byshops in euery church These two Anacletus and Anicetus you say are suspected why do you say suspected when as they haue bene conuinced and condemned and stande vppon the pillery with the cause of forgerie written in great letters that he which runneth may reade Some of the papistes them selues haue suspected them but those which mayntayne the truth haue condemned them as full of popery full of blasphemy and as those in whome was the very spirit of contradiction to the Apostles and their doctryne And do you marke what you say when you say that these are but suspected Thus much you say that it is suspected or in doubt whether the whole body of poperie and antichristianitie were in the Apostles time or sone after or no for Clement was in the Apostles time and their scholer and so you leaue it in dout whether the apostles appoynted and were the authors of popery or no. I thinke if euer you had red the Epistles you woulde neuer haue cited their authorities nor haue spoken so fauourably of them as you doe You come after to the councel of Nice wherin I wil not sticke with you that you say it was holden the CCC xxx yeare of the Lorde when as it maye appeare by Eusebius hys Computation that it was holden Anno Domini CCC xx and heere you take so greate a leape that it is enoughe to breake the archbishoppes necke to skippe at once CCC yeares that is from the tyme of the apostles vntill the time of the councell of Nice wythout any testimony of any either father or storie of faithe and credite whych maketh once mention of an archbishop What no mention of hym in Theophilus byshop of Antioche none in Ignatius none in Clemens Alexandrinus none in Iustin Martyr in Ireneus in Tertullian in Origine in Cyprian none in all those olde Historiographers out of the whych Eusebius gathereth hys story Was it for his basenes and smalnes that he could not be seene amongst the byshops elders and deacons being the cheefe and principall of them all can the Ceder of Lebanon be hid amongst the boxe trees Aristotle in his Rhethorike ad Theodecten sayeth that it is a token of contempt to forget the name of an other belike therefore if there were any archbishop he had no chaire in the church but was as it semeth digging at the metalles For otherwise they that haue filled their bookes wyth the often mentioning of bishops would haue no doubt remembred him But let vs heare what the councell of Nice hath for these titles In the. 6. canon mention is made of a metropolitane bishop what is that to the metropolitane whych is now either to the name or to the office of the office it shal appeare afterwards In the name I thinke there is a great differēce betwene a metropolitane bishop metropolitane of England or of al England A Metropolitane bishop was nothing els but a bishop of that place which it pleased the Emperor or magistrate to make the chefe citie of the diocese or shire and as for thys name it maketh no more difference betwene bishop and bishop then when I say a minister of London and a minister of Nuington There is no man that is well aduised whych will gather of thys saying that there is as great difference in preheminence betweene those two ministers as is betweene London and Nuington for his office and preheminence we shall see hereafter There are alledged to proue the names of archbyshops patriarkes archdeacons the. 13. 25. 26. and. 27. Canons of the councel of Nece For the. 25. 26. 27. there are no such canons of that councell and although there be a thirtenthe canon there is no worde of patriarke or archdeacon there contained And I maruell wyth what shame you can thruste vppon vs these counterfaite canons whych come out of the popes minte yea and whych are not to be found Theodoret sayeth that there are but twentie Canons of the councell of Neece and those twentie are in the tome of the councels and in those there is no mention of any patriarke archdeacon archbishop Ruffine also remembreth 22. Canons very little differing from those other twenty but in lengthe and in none of those are found any of these names of archbishop archdeacon patriarke And it is as lawfull for M. Harding to alledge the. 44. canon of the coūcell of Nece to proue the supremacie
seculare rule or dominion Wherevpon we see howe that it is safe for vs to go to the scriptures and to the apostles times for to fetch our gouernmēt and order And that it is very dangerous to drawe from those riuers the fountaines wherof are troubled and corrupted especially when as the wayes whereby they runne are muddier and more fennie then is the head it selfe And although M. Doctor hathe brought neither scripture nor reason nor councel wherin there is either name of archbishop or archdeacon or proued that there may be although he shewe not so much as the name of them 400. yeres after our sauioure Christ And although where he sheweth them they be eyther by counterfait authors or wythout any worde of approbation of good authors yet as though he had shewed all and proued all hauing shewed nothing nor proued nothing he clappeth the hands to himselfe and putteth the crowne vpon hys owne heade saying that those that be learned may easely vnderstande that the names archbishop archdeacon primate patriarche be most auncient and approued of the eldest best worthiest councels fathers wryters And a little afterward that they are vnlearned and ignorant whych say otherwise Heere is a victory blowne wyth a great and sounding trumpet that might haue bene piped wyth an oten straw And if it shuld be replied againe that M. Doctor hathe declared in thys little learning little reading and les iudgement there might grow controuersies wythout all frute And by and by in saying that the archbyshops beginning is vnknown in stead of a bastard which some brought into the church that hid them selues because they were ashamed of the childe he will make vs beleeue that we haue a new Melchisedech without father wythout mother and whose generation is not knowne and so concludeth wyth the place of S. Augustine as farre as he remembreth in the. 118. epistle to Ianuarie that the originall of them is from the apostles them selues Heere M. Doctor seemeth to seeke after some glory of a good memory as thoughe he had not Augustine by him when he wrote this sentence And yet he maruellously forgetteth him selfe for he vsed this place before in hys 23. page and citeth it there precisely and absolutely where also I haue shewed howe vnaduisedly that sentence of Augustine is approued howe that therby a window is open to bring in all popery and whatsoeuer other corrupt opinions That the names of Lordes and honor as they are vsed in this realme are not meete to be giuen to the ministers of the gospell there hath bene spoken before As for Prelate of the Garter if it be a nedefull office there are inow to execute it besides the ministers whych for as much as they be apoynted to watch ouer the soules of men purchased wyth the bloud of Christ all men vnderstande that it is not meete that they should attend vpon the body much les vpon the leg and least of all vpon the Garter It is not vnlawfull for Princes to haue ministers of their honor but also it is not lawful to take those that God hath appoynted for an other ende to vse to suche purposes Thou seest heere good Reader that M. Doctor keepeth hys olde wonte of manifest peruerting of the wordes and meaning of the authors of the admonition for where as they say that the name of Earle Countie Palatine Iustice of peace and Quorum Commissioner are antichristian when they are geuen to ministers of the church whose calling wil not agree wyth such titles he concludeth simply that they say that they be altogither vnlawfull and simply antichristian As if I should reason that it is not meete that the Quenes maiesty shuld preach or minister the Sacraments therefore it is not meete that there should be any preaching or ministering of the sacraments Now letting pas all your hard words vnbrotherly speaches wyth your vncharitable Prognostications and colde prophesies I will come to examine whether you haue any better hap in prouing the office then you had in prouing the name And wheras in the former treatise of the name of the archbyshop he blew the trompet before the victory here in this of the office he bloweth it before he commeth into the fielde or striketh one stroke saying that they little consider what they wryte that they are contemners of auncient wryters that they neuer red them and that they are vnlearned which deny these things which he affirmeth Wel what we read how vnlearned we are is not the matter which we striue for The iudgement thereof is first wyth God and then with the churches and in their iudgements we are content to rest But if you be so greatly learned and we so vnlearned and smally red then the truth of our cause shall more appeare that is maintained wyth so small learning reading against men of suche profound knowledge and great reading And yet I knowe not why if we be not to idle we shuld not be able to read as much as you which may haue leisure to read a good long wryter or euer you can ryde only to see and salute your houses and liuings being so many and so farre distāt one from an other And if we be so vnlearned and holde suche dangerous opinions of Papistrie and Anabaptistry as you beare men in hand we do why do you not by the example of the ministers in Germanie procure a publike disputatiō where you may both win your spurres and such detestable opinions wyth the ignorance of the authors may be displayed vnto the whole world But let vs heare what is sayd Cyprian sayth he speaking of the office of an archbyshop c. Onles good reader thou wilt first beleue that Cyprian speaketh of an archbyshop and haste before conceiued a strong imagination of it M. Doctor can proue nothing Aristotle sayeth that vncunning Painters wryte the names of the beastes whych they painte in their tables for because otherwise it coulde not be knowne what they painte so M. Doctor mistrusting that the archbyshop will not be knowne by his description wryteth first the name of that he wil paint out Thys is it whych we striue about wherof the cōtrouersy is and this M. doctor taketh for graunted He accuseth the authors of the admonition for faulting in the petition of the principle or desiring to haue that graunted whych is denyed yet I am sure that in the whole admonition there is not such a grosse petition as thys is Where or in what wordes dothe S. Cyprian speake of the office of an archbyshop And heere by the way it is to be obserued of the reader how neare a kin the Pope and the archbishop be For this office is confirmed by the same places that the popes is the places and arguments which are brought againste hym are soluted wyth the same solutions that they vse whych maintaine the papacie For these places of Cyprian be alledged for the popes supremacye and in deede they make as
we shall hold out of the church the vnwrytten verities of the papists for my part if it be true that you say I can not tell what to answer vnto them For our answere is to thē the apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the church wrytten and therfore we reiect their traditions if for no other cause yet because they are superfluous and more then neede Now this degree of archbishop being not only not mentioned in the scriptures but also manifestly oppugned it is too bold and hardy a speache that I say no more to fetch the petegree of the archbyshop from the apostles times and from the apostles them selues But all thys time M. Doctor hath forgotten hys question whych was to proue an archbyshop wheras all these testimonies whych he alledgeth make mētion only of a bishop and therfore thys may rather confirme the state of the byshop in this realme thē the archbyshop But in the answere vnto them it shall appeare that as there is not in these places so much as the name of an archbyshop mentioned so except only the name of a bishop there shal be found very little agreemēt betwene the bishops in those dayes and those whych are called byshops in our time with vs. And consequently although M. doctor thought wyth one whiting boxe to haue whited two wals by establishing our archbyshop and byshop by the same testimonies of the fathers yet it shal be plaine that in going about to defend both he left both vndefended Let vs therfore come first to examine Ieroms reasons why one must be ouer the rest for in the testimony of men that is only to be regarded whych is spoken eyther wyth some authority of the scripture or wyth some reason grounded of the scripture otherwise if he speake wythout eyther scripture or reason he is as easely reiected as alledged One sayth he being chosen to be ouer the rest bringeth remedy vnto schismes how so least euery man sayeth he drawing to him selfe to breake the church in peeces But I would aske if the church be not in as great danger when all is done at the pleasure and lust of one man and when one caryeth all into error as when one pulleth one peece wyth him another an other peece and the third hys partalso wyth him And it is harder to draw many into an error then one or that many should be caryed away by their affections then one whych is euident in water whych if it be but a little it is quickly troubled and corrupted but being much it is not so easely But by thys ecclesiasticall Monarchie all things are kept in peace Nay rather it hath bene the cause of discord and well spring of most horrible schisme as it is to be seene in the very decretals them selues And admit it were so yet the peace whych is wythout truth is more execrable thē a thousand contentions For as by striking of two flintes togither there commeth out fire so it may be that sometimes by contention the truth whych is hidden in a darke peace may come to light whych by a peace in naughtines and wickednes being as it were buryed vnder the ground doth not appeare If therfore superiority domination of one aboue the rest haue such force to keepe men from schismes when they be in the truth it hath as great force to kepe them togither in error and so besides that one is easier to be corrupted then many thys power of one bringeth as great incommodity in keping them in error if they fall into it as in the truth if they are in it Moreouer if it be necessary for the keping of vnity in the church of England that one archbyshop should be primate ouer all why is it not as meete that for the keping of the whole vniuersall church there should be one archbyshop or byshop ouer all and the like necessity of the byshop ouer all christendome as of the byshop of all England vnles peraduenture it be more necessary that there should be one byshop ouer the vniuersall church then ouer the church of England for as much as it is more necessary that peace should be kept and schismes be auoyded in the vniuersali church then in the particulare church of England If you say that the archbyshop of England hath hys authority graunted of the Prince the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas whych was Emperor of all christendome did graunt him hys authority ouer all churches But you will say that it is a lie but the Pope will set as good a face and make as great a shew therin as you do in diuers poynts here But admit it to be a lie as in dede it is touching Constantine yet I say further that it may come to passe it hath ben that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes whych haue churches What if he then will geue that authority to one ouer all that one king graunteth in hys land may any man accept and take at hys hand such authority and if it be not lawful for him to take that authority tel me what fault you can finde in him whych may not be found in them It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a byshop vnto all the whole church neither is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to the whole church of England For when those which haue ben most excellent in knowledge and wisedome and most ready and quicke in doing and dispatching matters being alwayes present haue found enough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation what is he whych absent is able to discharge hys duety toward so many thousand churches And if you take exception that although they be absent yet they may do by vnder ministers as by Archdeacons Chauncellors Officials Commissaries and such other kinde of people what doe you else say then the Pope whych sayeth that by hys Cardinalles and archbyshoppes and Legates and other suche like he doeth all things For wyth their hands he ruleth all and by their feete he is present euerye where and wyth their eyes he seeth what is done in all places Let them take heede therfore least if they haue a common defence wyth the Pope that they be not also ioyned nearer wyth hym in the cause then peraduenture they be aware of Truely it is against my will that I am constrained to make suche comparisons not that I thinke there is so great diuersity betweene the Popedome and the archbyshoppricke but because there being greate resemblance betweene them I meane hauing regarde to the bare functions wythout respecting the doctrine good or badde whych they vpholde that I say there being great resemblance betweene them there is yet as I am persuaded great difference betweene the parsons that execute them The whych good opinion conceyued of them I we moste humbly beseeche them by the glory of God by the libertye of
chuse an other conceyueth the prayer wherby the helpe of God in that election and his direction is begged and no doubt executed the residue of the things which pertayned vnto the whole action In the seconde of the actes all the Apostles are accused of drunkennesse Peter answeareth for thē all wypeth away the infamy they were charged with But you will say where are the voyces of the rest which did chuse Peter vnto thys First you must know that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstāce then surely you do Peter great iniury that aske whether he were chosen vnto it For is it to bee thought that Peter would thrust in hym selfe to this office or dignitie without the consent and allowance of hys fellowes and preuent hys fellowes of thys preheminence vndoubtedly if it hadde not beene done arrogantly yet it must needes haue a great shew of arrogancye if hee hadde done thys without the consent of hys fellowes And heere you shall heare what the Scholiast sayth which gathereth the iudgement of Greke diuines hora speaking of Peter panta meta koines auton gnomes poiounta Behold how he doth all with their common consent And if any man hereupon will say that Peter exercised domination ouer the rest or gate any archapostleship beside that the whole story of the actes of the apostles and his whole course of life doth refute that the same Scholiast which I made mention of in the same place sayth he did nothing archikos imperiously nothing meta exousias with domynion or power Further I will admonishe him to take heede least if he striue so sore for the archbyshop he slide or euer he be aware into the tentes of the papistes which vse these places to proue that Peter had authoritie and rule ouer the rest of the apostles And that it may bee vnderstanded that thys moderate rule voyde of all pompe and outward shew was not perpetuall nor alwayes tyed vnto one man which were the last poyntes of the cautions I put before turne vnto the 15. of the Actes where is shewed how with the rest of the church the apostles and amongst them Peter being assembled to decide a great controuersie Iames the Apostle and not Peter moderated and gouerned the whole action when as after other had sayd their iudgementes and namely Paule and Barnabas Peter he in the ende in the name of all pronounced the sentence and that whereof the rest agreed and had disputed vnto and the residue rested in that iudgement the which also may likewyse appeare in the 21. of the Actes This is hee which is called the byshop in euery church thys is he also whome Iustin wherof mention is made afterwardes calleth proestos And finally thys is that great archbishoppricke and great bishoppricke that M. Doctor so often stumbleth on This order and preheminence the Apostles time and those that were neare them kept and the nearer they came to the apostles times the nearer they kept them to this order and the farther of they were from those times vntill the discouering of the sonne of perdition the further of were they from thys moderation and nearer to that tyranny and ambitious power which oppressed and ouerlayde the churche of God. And therefore maister Caluin doth warely say that one amongst the apostles indefinitely not any one singular person as Peter had the moderation and rule of the other and further shadoweth out what rule that was by the example of the consul of Rome whose authoritie was to gather the senate together to tell of the matters which were to be handled to gather the voyces to pronounce the sentence And although the Antichrist of Rome had peruerted all good order and taken all libertie of the church into hys the Cardinalles Archbishops and Byshoppes handes yet there are some colde and lyght footinges of it in our synodes which are holden with the parliament where amongst all the mynisters which are assembled out of all the whole realme by the more part of voyces one to chosen which should goe before the rest propounde the causes gather the voyces and bee as it were the mouth of the whole company whome they terme the prolocutor Suche great force hath the truthe that in the vtter ruines of Popery it could neuer be so pulled vp by the rootes that a man coulde neuer know the place thereof no more or that it shoulde not leaue suche markes and printes behinde it whereby it myght afterwardes recouer it selfe and come agayne to the knowledge of men Now you see what authoritie we allow amongst the ministers both in their seuerall churches or in prouinciall sinodes or nationall or generall or what so euer other meetinges shall be aduised of for the profite and edifying of the church and withall you see that as we are farre from thys tyranny and excessiue power which now is in the church so we are by the grace of God as farre from confusion and disorder wherein you trauell so much to make vs to seeme giltie M. Doctor reasoneth agayne that Paule an Apostle and in the highest degree of ministerie was superior to Timothe and Titus Euangelistes and so in a lower degree of mynisterie therefore one mynister is superior to an other one byshop to an other byshop whych are all one office and one function As if I shuld say my Lord Mayor of London is aboue the sherifes therfore one sherife is superior to an other Again an other argumēt he hath of the same strēgth Titus being an Euangelist was superior to al the pastors in Crete which was a degree vnder the Euangelists therfore one pastor must be superior vnto an other pastor And that he was superior he proueth because he had authority to ordaine pastors so that the print of the archbyshop is so deepely set in his head that hereof he can imagine nothing but that Titus shuld be archbishop of all Crete I haue shewed before how these words are to be taken of S. Paule and for so much as M. Doctor burdeneth vs wyth the authority of Caluin so often I wil send him to Caluins owne interpretation vpon this place wher he sheweth the Titus did not ordaine by his owne authority for s. Paul wold not graunt Titus leaue to do that whych he him self wold not and sheweth that to say that Titus should make the election of pastors by him selfe is to giue vnto hym a princely authority and to take away the election from the church and the iudgement of the insufficiency of the minister from the company of the pastors whych were sayeth he to prophane the whole gouernment of the church I maruell therfore what M. doctor meaneth to be so busy wyth M. Caluin and to seke confirmation of his archbyshop and byshop at him whych wold haue shaken at the naming of the one and trembled at the office of the other onles it be because he would faine haue hys plaister where he receiued hys wound but I dare assure him
bowes because the Paganes dyd vse so and that they should not rest from their laboures those dayes that the paganes dyd that they should not keepe the first day of euery moneth as they dyd * An other councell decreed that the christians should not celebrate feastes on the birth dayes of the Martyrs because it was the maner of the heathen whereby it appeareth that both of singulare men and of councels in making or abolyshing of Ceremonies heede hath beene taken that the Christians shoulde not be lyke vnto the Idolaters no not in those things which of them selues are most indifferent to be vsed or not vsed It were not harde to shewe the same considerations in the seuerall things which are mentioned of in thys admonition as for example in the ceremonies of prayer which is heere to bee handled wee reade that Tertullian would not haue the Christians sitte after they had prayed because the idolaters dyd so but hauing shewed thys in generall to be the pollicy of God first and of hys people afterwarde to put as muche difference as can be commodiously betwene the people of God and others whych are not I shal not neede to shewe the same in the particulares Furthermore as the wisedome of God hathe thoughte it the best way to keepe hys people from infection of idolatry to make them most vnlike the idolaters so hath the same wisedome of God thought good that to kepe hys people in the vnity of the truth there is no better way then that they should be moste like one to an other and that as much as possibly may be they shuld haue all the same ceremonies And therfore S. Paule to establishe this order in the church of Corinth that they shoulde make their gatherings for the pore vpon the firste day of the Saboth whych is our sunday alleageth thys for a reason that he had so ordained in other churches so that as children of one father and seruauntes of one family he will haue all the churches not only haue one diet in that they haue one word but also weare as it were one liuery in vsing the same ceremonies Thys rule did the great councell of Nice follow when it ordained y where certaine at the feast of Pentecost did pray kneeling that they should pray standing the reason wherof is added whych is that one custome oughte to be kepte throughout all the churches It is true that the diuersity of ceremonies ought not to cause the churches to dissent one wyth an other but yet it maketh much to the auoyding of dissention that there be amongst them an vnity not only in doctrine but also in Ceremonies Nowe we see plainely that as the forme of oure seruice and Leyturgie commeth to neare that of the papistes so it is farre different from that of other churches reformed and therfore in bothe these respectes to be amended An other faulte there is in the whole seruice or Lyturgie of Englande for that it maintaineth an vnpreaching ministery and so consequently an vnlawfull ministery I say it maintaineth not so muche in that it appoynteth a number of psalmes and other prayers and chapters to be red whych may occupye the time whych is to be spent in preaching wherin notwythstanding it ought to haue bene more wary considering that the deuil vnder this coloure of long prayer did thus in the kingdome of antichriste banish preaching I say not so much in that poynt as for that it requireth necessarily nothyng to be done by the minister whych a childe of ten yeare olde can not doe as well and as lawfully as that man wherewyth the boke contenteth it selfe Neyther can it be shifted in saying this is done for want of able men to be ministers for it may be easely answeared that first the want of sufficient ministers ought to be no cause for men to breake the vnchāgeable lawes of God whych be that none maye be made minister of the churche whych can not teache that none minister the sacraments whych do not preache For althoughe it might be graunted whych thing I woulde not denye no not when there are enough sufficient ministers that they may appoynt some godly graue man whych can do nothing else but reade to be a reader in the churche yet that may not be graunted that they maye make of one that can doe nothyng but reade a minister of the gospell or one whych may haue power to minister the sacramentes Besides that howe can they say that it is for want of sufficient ministers when as there be put out of the ministerye men that be able to serue God in that calling and those put in their roumes whych are not able when there are numbers also whych are fit to serue and neuer sought for nor once required to take any ministery vpon them If therfore it were lawfull to plead want of able ministers for this dumbe ministery whych is altogither vnlawfull yet woulde thys plea neuer be good vntill suche time as bothe those were restored whych are put out and all other sought forth and called vpon whych are fit for that purpose Againe it can not be sayde iustly that they haue taken these reading ministers vntill suche time as better may be gotten for if the church could procure able ministers and should desire that they mighte be ordained ouer them they can not obtaine that considering that these reading ministers haue a free hold and an estate for terme of their liues in those churches of the whych they are such ministers so that by thys meanes the sheepe are not only committed to an idoll shepheard I might say a wolfe and speake no otherwise then Aug. speaketh in that a not preaching minister hath entrance into the church but the dore also is shutte vpon him and sparred against any able minister that might haply be found oute There is a third fault whych likewise appeareth almost in the whole body of this seruice and Liturgie of England and that is that the profit whych might haue come by it vnto the people is not reaped Whereof the cause is for that he whych readeth is not in some places heard and in the most places not vnderstāded of the people through the distance of place betweene the people and the minister so that a great part of the people can not of knowledge tell whether he hathe curssed them or blessed them whether he hath red in Latine or in English all the whych riseth vpon the words of the boke of seruice whych are that the minister should stand in the accustomed place For therevpon the minister in saying morning and euening prayer sitteth in the chauncell wyth hys backe to the people as thoughe he had some secreate talke wyth God whych the people myghte not heare And herevpon it is likewise that after morning prayer for saying a nother number of prayers he climeth vp to the further end of the chauncel and runneth as farre from the people as the wall wil
these things may be defended if men wil set them selues to striue and to contende yet for the desire that I haue that these thyngs should be amended and for the instruction of the simpler whych are studious of the truthe I haue bene bolde to vtter that whych I thinke not doubting also but that the light of the truthe shall be able to scatter all those mistes of reasons whych shall go about to darken the clearnes therof To the next section beginning at the. 79. page and holding on vntill the. 82. page MAister D. requireth that it should be proued vnto him that by priuate baptisme is ment baptisme by wemen First it is ment that it shuld be done by some other then the minister for that the minister is bid to geue them warning that they shuld not baptise the childe at home in their house wythout great cause and necessity Secondarily I would gladly aske him who they be that are present when the childe is so shortly after it is borne in great danger of death And last of all M. Doctor dothe not see howe he accuseth all the magistrates of thys realme of the neglect of their duety in that they allowe of the daily practising by women in baptising children if so be that the boke did not so appoynt it or permit it If he ment plainly heerein there needed not so much adoe The place of S. Mathew is as strong against womens baptising as it is against their preaching For the ministery of the word and sacraments can not be pulled in sonder whych the Lord hathe ioyned together from time to time For Noah whych was a preacher vnto the olde world of the wil of God was ordained also of God to make the Arke whych was a Sacrament and seale of hys preaching touching the destruction of the world And Abraham whom the Lord would haue to be the Doctor of hys church whych was then in his family was also commaunded to minister the Sacrament of circumcision vnto hys familye The priestes and Leuites whych were appoynted to teache the people were also appoynted to sacrifice and to minister other sacraments in the churche Likewise the same Prophets whych God stirred vp to preache he also ordained to cōfirme the same by signes and sacraments The same may be also brawne through out the new Testament as vnto euery of the twelue and afterward to the. 70. power was geuen bothe to preache the gospell and also to confirme with signes and miracles whych were seales of their doctrine And S. Paule by the commaundement that oure sauioure Christe gaue him to preache vndertoke also to baptise althoughe there were no expres wordes that licensed hym therevnto for he knewe right well that it was the perpetuall ordinance of God that the same should be the ministers of the word and sacraments Whervpon it followeth that for as much as women may not preach the gospel no not by the lawes of the realme that they ought not to minister baptisme But M. Doctor riseth vp and sayeth that a woman in the time of necessitye and when there is none other that eyther can or will preache may preache the gospell in the churche This is straunge doctrine and suche as strengtheneth the Anabaptistes handes and sauoureth stronger that wayes then any one thyng in all the admonition whych is so often condemned of Anabaptisme Hys first reason to proue it is that there are examples therof When we alledge the examples of all the churches of the apostles times to proue the election of the minister by the church and in other cases whych are generall examples approued and executed by the apostles contrary to no commaundement nor institution of God yea and as hathe bene proued according to the commaundement of God M. Doctor geueth vs oure answere in a worde that examples proue not nowe that the question is to make good womens preaching in the churche examples I will not saye of all churches but of no one church only of a fewe singulare persons not according to the commaundement of the worde of God but cleane contrary to the prescripte worde of God I say nowe examples and suche singulare examples are good proufes and strong arguments Now if the speache be a true messenger of the heart I perceiue M. doctor is of this minde that he would haue women preach in the church of England at thys time for he can not deny and he also confesseth it sometimes that thys is the time of necessity in dede it must be needes an extreme necessity that driueth to make one man pastor of two churches especially so far distant that driueth to make men which are not able to teach ministers and diuers more things which are contrary to the word of god Therfore this being a time of necessity by M. Doctors iudgement we ought to haue women to preach Besides this he sayth if neither none other can or wil preache that then women may preach but in the most churches of thys realme there is none that eyther can or will preach therefore there and in those churches women at the least if they be able may preache the gospell and consequently minister the sacraments In the. 187. page he citeth M. Caluin in the. 13. chap. section 32. to proue that women may teach wherein I maruell what he meaneth so to alledge M. Caluin continually he alledgeth the. 13. chapter and no booke as thoughe he had wrytten but one boke and in deede there is no such thing in no such chapter of any boke of hys institutions or in any other place throughout his whole workes as I am perswaded If this faulte had bene but twise or thrise I woulde haue thought it had bene the printers but now that it is continuall and so oftentimes surely he geueth great suspition that eyther some bodye hathe mocked hym wyth these places or els he would abuse others and especially him that should answer hys boke setting him to seeke that he should neuer finde As for M. Caluins iudgement what it is of womens preaching it maye appeare by that he will not by any meanes no not in the time of necessitye as they terme it suffer either woman or any lay mā to baptise or minister any sacrament and therfore not to preache And as for the examples of Mary the sister of Moyses of Olda of Anna and the daughters of Philip the euangelist whych are all called prophetisses for I thinke M. doctor meaneth these exāples as for them I say it wil be hard for to shew that they euer prophesied or taught openly in any publike meeting or congregation But the surer answer is that although the Lorde doe sometimes not being vnder any law chaunge the order which he hath set in raysing vp certayne women partly to the shame of men and to humble them partly to let them vnderstand that he can if he would want their ministery yet it is not lawfull for vs to draw that into
God as also as S. Paule teacheth a declaration and profession that wee are at one with oure brethren so that it is fyrst a sacrament of the knitting of all the body generally and of euery member particularly with the heade and then of the members of the body one with an other Now therefore seeing that euery particular church and body of Gods people is a representation and as it were a liuely portraiture of the whole church and body of Christ it followeth that that which we can not doe with all the church scattered throughout the whole world for the distances of places whereby we are seuered we ought to doe with that church whereunto God hath raunged vs as much as possibly or conueniently may be The departing therefore of the rest of the church from those three or fower is an open profession that they haue no communion fellowshippe nor vnitie with them that doe communicate and lykewise of those three or foure that they haue none with the rest that ioyne not them selues thereunto when as both by the many grapes making one cuppe and cornes making one loafe that whole church being many parsons are called as to the vnitie which they haue one with an other and altogether amongst them selues so to the declaration and profession of it by receiuing one with an other and altogether amongst them selues And as if so be that we do not celebrate as we may possibly and conueniently the supper of the Lord we thereby vtter our want of loue towardes the Lord which hath redeemed vs so if we doe not communicate together with the churche so farre forth as we may do conueniently we betray the want of our loue that we haue one towardes an other And therefore S. Paul dryuing heereunto willeth that one shoulde tary for an other reprehending that when one preuenteth and commeth before an other saying that that is to take euery man hys owne supper and not to celebrate the Lords supper Not that so many men or women as there came so many tables were for that had not bene possible in so great assemblyes but that they sorted them selues into certayne companyes and that they came scattering one after an other and that in stead of making one supper of the Lord they dyd make dyuers These things being considered the reason which the Admonition vseth in the 185. page where thys matter is spoken of which is drinke you all of thys is not so rydiculous as M. Doctor maketh it For although that it doe neyther proue that 12. or 20. or any other definite number must of necessitie receyue yet it proueth that as all they which were present dyd communicate And so as many as in the church are fit to receiue the sacraments or may conueniently receiue them together shoulde follow that example in celebrating the supper together And it is probably to be thought that if our sauiour Christ had not bene restrayned by the law of God touching the passeouer vnto hys owne family and to as many onely as would serue to eate vppe a Lambe by them selues that he would haue celebrated hys supper amongst other of hys disciples and professoures of hys doctryne But for so muche as it was meete that hee shoulde celebrate hys supper there and then where and when hee dyd celebrate hys passeouer for the cause before by me alleaged it pleased hym to keepe hys first supper with the fewer for that the law of communication vnto the passeouer which was ioyned wyth the supper woulde not admit any greater number of communicants then was sufficient to eate vp the passeouer And althoughe it be cleare and playne that when it is sayde drincke ye all of thys and tary one for an other these sayinges are ment of that particulare congregation or assembly which assemble themselues together to be taught by one mouth of the mynister yet I haue therefore put thys caution as muche as may be possyble least any man shoulde cauill as though I would haue no communion vntill all the godly through the world should meete together Likewise I haue put thys caution as much as may be conueniently for although it be possible that a perticulare church may communicate at one table in one day and together yet maye the same be inconuenient for dyuers causes As if the number should be very great so that to haue them all communicate together it would require suche a long tyme as the tarying out of the whole action would hazarde eyther the lyfe or at least the health of dyuers there Agayne for as much as other some being at the churche it is meete that other should be at home vppon occasyon of infantes and suche lyke thinges as require the presence of some to tary at home In these cases and suche lyke the inconueniences doe delyuer vs from the gilte of vncharitablenes and forsaking the fellowship of the church for that wee doe not heere seuere oure selues but are by good and iust causes seuered which gilte wee shall neuer escape if beside suche necessarye causes wee pretende those that are not or hauing not so muche as a pretence yet notwythstanding seperate our selues as the dayly practise thorough out the church doth shew But it may be obiected that in thys poynt the booke of Common prayer is not in fault which doth not only not forbid that all the church should receiue together but also by a good godly exhortation moueth those that be present that they should not departe but communicate altogether It is true that it doth not forbid and that there is godly exhortation for that purpose but that I say is not enough for neither should it suffer that three or foure should haue a communion by them selues so many being in the church meete to receiue and to whom the supper of the Lord doth of right appertaine it ought to prouide that those whych woulde wythdrawe them selues shoulde be by Ecclesiasticall discipline at all times and now also vnder a godly Prince by ciuill punishment brought to communicate wyth their brethren And thys is the law of God and thys is now and hath bene heeretofore the practise of churches reformed All men vnderstand that the passeouer was a figure of the Lords supper and that there should be as straight bonds to binde men to celebrate the remembrance of our spirituall deliuerance as there was to remember the deliuerance out of Egipt But whosoeuer did not then communicate with the rest at that time when the passeouer was eaten was excommunicated as it may appeare in the boke of Numbers where he sayeth that whosoeuer did not communicate being cleane his soule should be cut off from amongst the people of god Therfore thys neglect or contempt rather of the Lordes supper ought to be punished wyth no les punishment especially when as after the church hath proceeded in that order whych our sauior Christ appoynteth of admonishing they be not sory for their fault and promise
skill and vnderstanding then he hath of that court The reply vnto the next section in the. 89. 90. 91. 92. 93. pages WHereas vnto the Admonition prouing out of the thirde of S. Mathew that preaching muste goe before the mynistring of the sacramentes you answere first that it is agaynst all Logicke to conclude a generall rule vpon a particulare example you shall vnderstande that that which Iohn dyd in that poynt he dyd it not as a singular person or as the sonne of Ê’acharie but as the mynister of the gospell and therefore it appertayneth as well to all other mynisters as vnto hym For as it is a good conclusion that for so much as Peter in that he is a man is borne to haue and by common course of nature hath two legges therefore Iohn and Thomas and all the rest haue so euen so for so much as Iohn by reason of hys ministery had neede first to preach then to baptise it followeth that all others that haue that ministery committed vnto them must do the lyke Secondarely you say that it doth not appeare that he preached immediatly before he baptised them with water And yet S. Mathew after that he had shewed that he preached repentaunce which the other Euangelistes call the baptisme of repentance he addeth that then the people were baptysed of him which also may appeare in the Actes where S. Paule noteth thys order to haue bene kept For although betwene the story of hys preaching and that which is sayde of hys baptising there is interlaced a description of hys dyet and of hys apparel yet these wordes then came vnto hym c. must needes be referred vnto the tyme which followed hys preaching And where as you say that it is manyfest that our sauiour Christ was baptysed without preaching I would know of you what one worde doth declare that when as the contrary rather doth appeare in S. Luke which seemeth to note playnly that our sauiour Christ was baptised when the people were baptysed But the people as I haue shewed were baptysed immediatly after they heard Iohn preach therefore it is lyke that our sauiour Christ was baptysed after that he had heard Iohn preach And it is very probable that our sauiour Christ which dyd honoure the mynistery of God by the hand of men so farre as he would voutchsafe to bee baptysed of Iohn would not neglect or passe by hys mynistery of the word being more precious then that of the sacrament as it appeareth by Iohn that our sauiour Christ was present at hys sermons for so much as S. Iohn doth as he was preaching to the people poynt hym out with the finger and told them that he was in the middest of them which was greater then he And there is no doubt but those words which our sauiour Christ sayd before hys supper although they are gathered by the Euangelistes into short sentences were notwithstanding long sermons touching the fruite of hys death and vse and ende of that sacrament And thys order of preaching immedyatly before the mynistring of the sacramentes is continually noted of S. Luke throughout the whole story of the Actes of the Apostles But I will not precisely say neyther yet doe the authors of the Admonition affirme as M. Doctor surmyseth of them that there must be preaching immediatly before the admynistration of the sacramentes Thys I say that when as the lyfe of the sacramentes dependeth of the preaching of the worde of God there must of necessitie the worde of God bee not red but preached vnto the people amongste whom the sacramentes are mynistred And forasmuch as I haue proued before that no man may mynister the sacramentes but he which is able to preache the word although I dare not affirme that there is an absolute necessitie that the word should be preached immediatly before the sacramentes be mynistred yet I can imagine no case wherein it is eyther meete or conuenient or else almost sufferable that the sacramentes should be mynistred without a sermon before them for the mynister being as hee oughte of necessitie to bee able to preache oughte so to doe And if it be sayde that hys health or voyce will not serue hym sometymes to preache when he is able enough to mynister the sacramentes I say that eyther he ought to begge the helpe of an other mynister hard by or else there is lesse inconuenience in deferring the celebration of the sacrament vntill hee bee strong enough to preach then ministring it so maymedly and without a sermon wherby it is sene how iust cause M. Doctor hath to cal these blynde and vnlearned gatherings which he with hys Egles eye and hys great learning can not scatter nor once moue After thys M. Doctor accuseth the authors of the Admonition as though they simply condemned reading the scriptures in the church and thys accusation he followeth in many wordes and in dyners places wherein as in a number of other places of theyr booke the authors of the Admonition haue cause to renew that olde complaynt of Theodorus which is that whensoeuer any thing is sayde that is vnpleasant that is by and by expounded otherwyse then it is ment of hym that speaketh it so that that which is geuen with the ryght hand is receiued with the left For the authors of the Admonition declaring theyr vtter mislyking that there should be in stead of a preaching minister a reading mynister if I may so call hym and in stead of preaching reading are vntruely expounded of M. doctor as though they condemned all reading in the church And heere he maketh hym selfe worke picketh a quarell to blot a great deale of paper to proue that which no man denyeth for besydes thys treatise he speaketh afterward of it in halfe a score pages euen from the. 159. page vntill the. 1â—0 page and so lighteth vs a candel at noone dayes It is a token of a nature disposed to no great quietnesse which rather then he would not striue striueth with hym selfe And although the cause be iust and good which he defendeth yet I will note in a word or two how as though there were pitch or some worse thing in hys handes hee defyleth whatsoeuer he toucheth First therefore he asketh and so that he doth most boldly and confidently affirme it whether the word of God is not as effectual when it is red as when it is preached or whether reading be not preaching In which two questions although the one of them confuteth the other for so much as if reading be preaching as he sayeth then the comparyson of the profite and efficacy betwene one and the other is absurde yet I will answere to both I say therefore that the word of God is not so effectuall red as preached For S. Paule sayth that fayth commeth by hearing hearing of the word preached so that the ordinary and especiall meanes to worke fayth by is preaching and not reading And although reading
our honoures or our commodities and wealth but as I haue sayd our lyues ought not to be deare vnto vs For therefore doth hee make mention of the confession of Christ vnto the death that he might shew vs an example and forthwith speaketh of God which rayseth from the dead that by thys meanes he might comfort Timothe if he should be brought into any trouble for the defence of any of these things Fourthly if we refer those wordes without spot or blemish vnto the commaundement as I for my part thinke they ought to be then there is a waight in these words not to be passed ouer which is that the apostle will not only haue the rules heere contayned not troden vnder the feete or broken in peeces but hee will not haue them so much as in any one small poynt or specke neglected But I see how M. Doctor will wype away all thys and say that these thinges or some of them were to bee obserued thus necessarily and precisely vntill there were christian prynces and peace in the churche but the print is deeper then that it will bee so washed away Therefore it is to be obserued what he sayeth in the latter end of the sentence where he chargeth Timothe and in hym all that hee should keepe all these things not vntill the tyme of peace or to the times of Christian Princes but euen vntill the comming or appearing of our sauiour Christ which is as long as the world lasteth And therfore I conclude that the seigniors or elders of the church being a part of that order and gouernment of the church which S. Paule appoynteth in thys Epistle are necessary perpetuall and by no meanes to be changed So that we haue not only now the examples of all the primitiue churches which ought to moue vs if there were no commaundement but we haue also a straight commaundement I say the onely examples ought to moue vs for what way can we safelyer follow then the common hygh way beaten and troden by the steps of all the Apostles and of all the churches Things also growing and being preserued by the same meanes by the which they were ingendred why shoulde we thinke but that the churches now will prosper by that gouernment whereby it first came vp But I say we haue not only the examples of the churches but wee haue also commaundement and strayght charge to keepe thys office of elders and auncientes in the church and therefore it is not onely rashnesse in leauing the way that the Apostles and churches by the Apostles aduise haue gone but disobedyence also to depart from theyr commaundement and to mayntayne and defend that we may doe so I can almost geue it no gentler name then rebellion Now I will come to Mayster Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundreth and fourteene and a hundred and fifteene pages where he graunteth that there were elders in euery church in tymes past but sayth that it ought not now so to bee For sayeth hee the tymes alter the gouernment and it can not be gouerned in the tyme of prosperitie as in the tyme of persecution vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant Thus he sayeth but sheweth no reason bringeth no proofe declareth not how nor why prosperity will not beare the Elders as well as persecution neyther why they may not be vnder a godly prince as well as vnder a tyrant onles thys be a reason that because the godly prince doth nourishe the church as a cyuill magistrate therefore the auncientes may not nourish it as Ecclesiasticall ouerseers Now seeing Maister Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now as in the tyme of the Apostles as well vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant I will shew hym that although they be alwayes necessary yet there is better cause why they should rather be now then in the apostles times greater necessyty vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant First of all in the apostles tymes it is knowne that the giftes of the spirite of wisedome discretion knowledge enduring of trauaile were poured forth more plentifully then euer they were eyther before or shall be after By reason whereof the pastoures and mynisters of the churches that were then were I speake generally and of the estate of the whole Church better furnyshed with the giftes needefull for their mynistery then are the mynisters of these dayes Wherupon I conclude that if the ayde and assistance of the pastor by the Elders was thought necessary by the apostles in those tymes when the mynisters were so well and so richly replenished with such giftes much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the mynisters of these dayes wherein their giftes of discretion and knowledge and dyligence are not so plentifull For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue whose handes so nimble to execute had neede for their ayde of other eyes other handes then the mynisters now whose eyes are dimmer and hands heauier then theirs were haue much more neede of thys ayde then they had Agayne if S. Paule dyd charge the persecuted therefore pore churches with the fineding and prouiding for the senyors in euery church as it appeareth in the Epistle to Timothe where he sayeth that Elders whiche rule well are worthy double honour whereby he signifyeth a plentifull rewarde and suche as may be fully sufficient for them and their housholdes as when he biddeth that the widdow which serued the churche in attending vpon the sicke and vppon the straungers shoulde be honoured that is haue that wherewyth shee might honestly and soberly liue if I say Saynt Paule woulde charge the churches then with mayntayning the elders which being poore were not sometimes hable to liue without some reliefe from the church because they were compelled oftentimes to leaue their owne affaires to wayte of the affaires of the church how much more ought there now to be senyors when the churches be in peace and therefore not so pore and when there may be chosen such for the most part thoroughout the realme as are able to liue without charging the church any whit as the practise of these dayes doth manifestly declare And if S. Paule that was so desirous to haue the gospell adapanon that is free and without charges as much as is possible and so loth to lay any burthen vpon the churches especially those which were poore dyd notwithstanding enioyne the mayntenaunce of the elders vnto the churches poore and persecuted how much more shall we thincke that hys mynde was that the Churches which liue in peace and are rich and may haue thys office without charge ought to receiue thys order of auncientes Moreouer those that be learned know that the gouernement of the church which was in the apostles tymes being partly in respect of the people that had to doe in the elections and other things popular partly in respect of the pastors and auncientes Aristocraticall that
is the rule of the best I say they know that these gouernmentes do easely declyne into their contraries and by reason therof both the gouernment of those which were most vertuous might easely be chaunged into the gouernment of few of the richest or of greatest power and the populare estate might easely passe to a confused tumulte Now thys incommoditie were they more subiect vnto vnder a tyrant then vnder a godly prince For they had no cyuill magistrate which might correct and reforme those declyninges when they happened For the tyrantes dyd not know of it and if they had known of it they would haue bene glad to see the churches goe to wracke Therfore now we haue a godly ciuil magistrate which both wil ought to remedy such declinings conuersions of good gouernment into euill it followeth that thys estate gouernmēt by auncientes is rather to be vsed vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant Besides thys in the tyme of persecution all assemblyes of dyuers together were daungerous and put them all in hazard of their lyfe which dyd make those assemblies And therefore if the pastor alone might haue ordered and determyned of things pertayning to the church by hym selfe it had bene lesse daunger to him and more safety for others of the Church And therfore if the senyors were then thought meete to gouerne the church when they could not come together to exercise their functions without daunger much more ought they to be vnder a christian prince when they may meete together without daunger M. Doctor proceedeth sayeth it can not be gouerned in a whole realme as it may be in a citie or town This gouernment by senyors is not only in one citie but also hath beene of late throughout the whole realme of Fraunce where there were any churches and M. Doctor confesseth that it was in all the primitiue churches and therefore not onely in one realme but almost throughout the whole world and therefore the large spreading of the church can not hynder it So that the difference lyeth still in the peace and persecution of the Church and not in the capacitie and largenesse of the place where the churches abyde So might one reason agaynst the lawfull estate of a Monarchie For he might say that although the rule of one be needefull and conuenient in a housholde yet it is not conuenient in a towne and although it be conuenient in a towne yet it is not in a citie and although in a citie yet not in a realme To be short sayeth hee when he can say no more it can not be gouerned when it is full of hypocrites Papistes Atheistes and other wicked persons as in the times of persecution when there were few or none such I haue shewed before how great want of knowledge it bewrayeth to say that Papistes and Atheistes be of the church and I loue not as Maister Doctor doth to vse often repetition but if there bee now moe hypocrites other wicked and vnruely parsones in the church then there were in the tyme of persecution which I wil not deny thē there is greater cause now why there should be senyors in euery churche then there was then when there were fewer For the more naughty persons and the greater disorders there be the more ayde and helpe hath the pastor neede to haue both to finde out their disorders and also when they haue founde them out to iudge of the qualitie of them and after also to correct them with the censures of the church which standeth in such reprehensions priuate and open and excommunication as I haue before rehearsed Afterwarde he asketh what senyors may bee had in most of the paryshes of Englande fitte for that office he asketh the same question in the. 133. page where he also addeth pastors asking where may be gotten such pastoures as the authors of the Admonition require when as they require no other then those which the word of God requireth Well then if thys be a good reason why there should be no elders in any church because fitte men are not to be gotten in all paryshes it followeth by M. Doctors reason that forasmuch as we haue not fit and able pastors for euery church that therfore we ought to haue no able pastor in any church And if he will graunt that we ought to haue able pastoures in as many places as they may be gotten how can he deny that wee should haue elders in those churches where fitte men may bee had And I say further where wee haue an expresse commaundement layde vpon vs to doe a thing there all disputations must cease of hardenes of impossibility or profite or else of peace For first God hath not commaunded any orders in hys churche which are impossible and if they seeme harde it must bee remembred that the best and excellentest things are hardest and that there is nothing so harde which dyligence and trauayle to bring it to passe will not ouercome Which thing if it bee proued true in worldly affaires the truth therof will much more appeare in the matters pertayning vnto God considering that if God with hys blessing doe surmount all the difficultyes in worldly matters whych are otherwyse harde to be compassed hee will in hys owne matters and matters pertayning to hys glory fill vp the valleys although they be neuer so low bring downe the hylles althoughe they bee neuer so high playne the wayes be they neuer so rough so that he will make of a way not passable in the eyes of flesh away tracked and easie to goe in and to walke towardes that kingdome whereunto hee calleth vs Besides that I answere wheresoeuer there is a churche there are the riches of the spirite of God there is wyth knowledge discretion wisdom and there are suche as * S. Paule calleth wise and can discerne and iudge And wee see that when men are called to a lawfull and profitable calling and especially to a publike calling God doth powre on hys giftes of that person which is called so plentifully that hee is as it were sodenly made a newe manne which if he do in the wicked as Saule was there is no doubt but he will doe it in those which are with the testimony of the church and with experience of their former godly behauiour chosen to such offices of waight So that there is not nor can not bee any want to obey Goddes commaundement and to establishe the order in the church whych God hath appoynted but our owne eyther neglygence and slouthfulnes or fearefulnes or ambition or some other leuen which we nourish within our selues It is true that we ought to be obedyent vnto the cyuill magistrate which gouerneth the church of God in that office which is committed vnto hym and according to that calling But it must be remembred that cyuil magistrates must gouerne it according to the rules of God prescribed in hys word that as they are nourises so they
those lawes of discipline whiche hee hath prescribed And whereas M. Doctor woulde bring vs into a foolish paradise of oure selues as though we neede not to learne any thing at the churches of Fraunce Scotland he should haue vnderstanded that as we haue bene vnto them in example haue prouoked them to follow vs so the Lord will haue vs also profite and be prouoked by their example and so be mutuall helpes one to an other and stirre vp our selues with the admonition that our sauiour Christ stirred vp hys apostles that oftentimes those that are first are not forwardest but are ouerrun of others that come after And whereas he would priuely pinch at the reformation there for so much as the Lord hath humbled the one and exerciseth the other by cyuill warres and troubles he should haue in steade of rocking vs a sleepe in our securitie put vs in remembraunce of Gods scourges which hang ouer vs and of Gods great pacience that still taryeth for our repentaunce and that if hee haue punyshed that people of hys which haue suffered so much for the profession of the Gospell and which went with so strayght a foote in it with an vniuersall hazarde of their goodes and lyues that wee shall not escape vnlesse wee repent spedely of our coldnes and halting in relygion and vnwillingnes I will not say to hazarde to put our lyues in daunger but not to leese some of our wealth and honor for the obtayning of a through reformation of the churche and aduauncement of the glory of the Lord. Finally he would rather haue put vs in remembrance of the sermon which our sauiour Christ maketh where he sheweth that those cyties are not alwares the greatest sinners or those whome God is most angry with which haue the heauiest iudgementes executed vpon them but that thereby the Lord calleth vs to repentance otherwyse that we shall lykewise pearish Thys had bene more fit forourestate to haue bene sayd then to haue after a sort insulted vpon the afflicted daubed vp our eyes that we should not see our mysery and our nakednes In all the rest M. Doctor hath nothing but wordes of reproch agaynst the authors of the Admonition and calling still as hys manner is for more punishment for them which I will not bestow the answere of The reply vnto the section in the. 146. 147. 148. pages Sed etiam quodam in loco facetus esse voluisti Deus bone quam te illud non decet Heere M. Doctor was disposed to make hym selfe and hys reader mery but it is with the bagpipe or countrey mirth not with the Harpe or Lute which the learned were wont to handle For he hath packed vp together the olde tale of the curst wyfe and of the theefe that toke away the priestes purse very familiar homely geare It might peraduenture make M. Doctor hop about the house but the learned the wyse can not daunce by thys instrument It pleaseth M. Doctor to compare those which be put out of their lyuings without iust cause to heretickes curst wiues and to theeues but all men do vnderstand how rightly What hys troubles be within and in hys conscience the Lord God and hee knoweth best but as for the outwarde persecution which he suffereth it is not such as he neede thus to stoupe or to grone and to blow vnderneath it as though he had some great burthen vpon hys shoulders And if he complayne of the persecution of the tong to let passe hys immoderate heate of speach which he vseth with those that he hath to doe with all the tong which is more intemperate then hys is in all hys booke shall hardly be founde And although it be vnreasonable enough that he should not geue men leaue to complayne of their troubles when he gloryeth in troubling them yet that of all is most vntollerable that besides the iniury which he doth thē he is angry the they wil not lay hands of thē selues by casting thē selues out of their lyuings or euer they bee cast out by hym Tullie maketh mētiō of one C. Funbria which whē he had caused Q. Sceloua a singular in ā to be wounded saw that he dyed not of it conuēted hym before the iudges being asked what he had to accuse hym of answeared for that he dyd not suffer the whole weapon wherewith he was stricken to enter into hys body euen so M. Doctor contenteth not hym selfe only to doe iniuries vnto men but accuseth them also that they wil not do it vnto thē selues or that they would not willingly suffer hys weapons enter so farre as he would haue them What conscience is there that bindeth a man to depart from hys lyuing in that place where he lyketh not of all the orders which are there vsed is it not enough to abstayne from thē if there be any euill in them or to declare the vnlawfulnes of them if hys calling do suffer hym when as the reformation is not in hys power And if eyther of this abstayning or declaration of thys vnlawfulnes of them troubles be moued there is no more cause why they should geue place then the other which lyke of those disorders yea there is lesse cause for that they are not the causes of trouble but the other and for that by their departure out of theyr places roume is made for those whiche will lyke of those disorders which the other mislyked which is to the hurt of that company or congregation in such places And as for M. Doctors easynes to depart from hys lyuing rather then he would cause any trouble hee geueth men great cause to doubt of which hauing dyuers great lyuinges and amongst them a benefice is very loth to goe from troubling of others to doe hys duety at any of them It is true that the church of England may haue an order whereunto it may iustly require the subscription of the mynisters in Englande And so is it likewyse vntrue that we desire that euery one should haue hys own fansy and lyue as hym listeth for we also desire an vniforme order but such and in such sort as we haue before declared As for the olde accusation of Anabaptisme and confusion it is answeared before therefore according to my promise I will leaue your wordes and if you haue any matter I will speake to that Vnto the. 149. and. 150. pages THe Admonition hath no such thing as M. Doctor chargeth the authors thereof with that they dyd euer allow of the booke of seruice It sayeth they bare with it and vsed it so farre as they might and therefore now when it came to the approuing of it by subscription they refused there is no man which can not vnderstand that it is one thing to beare with a thing and an other to approue it and therefore to beare and to vse it so farre as might be may we ll agree with their refusall of subscription so that M. Doctors note is
iudgement of M. Bucer And wheras M. doctor vpon that s. Peter willeth the husbands to geue honor to their wiues wold approue this manner of speach in matrimony wyth my body I thee worshyp he must vnderstaÌ„d that it is one thing wyth vs to worship and an other thing to honor For we honor men whych we do not worshyp and besides that S. Peter speaketh of the honor of the mynde wherby the husband shuld be moued to beare wyth the infirmities of his wife therfore it is vnfitly alleaged to proue that he may worship her with his body As for the receiuing of the Communion when they be marryed that it is not to be suffered onles there be a generall receiuing I haue before at large declared and as for the reason that is fathered of M. Bucer whych is that those that be Christians maye not be ioyned in maryage but in Christe It is verye slender and cold as if the sacrament of the supper were instituted to declare any such thyng or they could not declare their ioyning togither in Christ by no meanes but by receyuing the supper of the Lorde To the next section in the. 197. page TEll me M. doctor why there should be any such confirmation in the church being brought in by the fained Decretall Epistles of the Popes and no one tittle therof being once found in the scrypture and seeing that it hath bene so horribly abused and not necessary why ought it not to be vtterly abolyshed and thirdly thys confirmation hath very dangerous poynts in it The first steppe of popery in thys confirmation is the laying on of hands vpon the head of the childe wherby the opinion of it that it is a sacrament is confirmed especially when as the prayer dothe saye that it is done according to the example of the Apostles whych is a manifest vntruthe and taken in deede from the popish confirmation The seconde is for that the byshop as he is called must be the only minister of it wherby the popishe opinion whych esteemeth it aboue baptisme is confirmed For whilest baptisme may be ministred of the minister and not coÌ„firmation but only of the byshop there is great cause of suspition geuen to thinke that baptisme is not so precious a thing as confirmation seeing thys was one of the principall reasons wherby that wicked opinion was establyshed in popery I do not heere speake of the inconuenience that meÌ„ are constrained with charges to bryng their childreÌ„ oftentimes halfe a score miles for that which if it were nedeful might be as wel done at home in their owne parishes The thirde is for y â— â—â— the allegation of the seconde cause of the vsing of the confirmation the boke sayeth that by the imposition of hands and prayer the chyldren may receyue strengthe and defence agaynst all temptations whereas there is no promyse that by the laying on of hands vpon chyldren any suche gyfte shall be geuen and it maintayneth the popyshe distinction that the spirite of God is geuen at baptisme vnto the remissyon of synnes and in confirmation vnto strength the whych very worde strength the booke alledgeth and all thys M. Doctor confuteth by callyng of the authors of the admonition peeuish and arrogant To the next section contained in the. 198. 199. 200. 201. pages LEast M. Doctor as hys common fashyon is when the corruption of anye thyng is spoken agaynst say that we condemne buryall I would haue hym vnderstand that we hold that the body must be honestly and comely buried and that it is mete that for that cause some reasonable numbre of those whych be the frends and neyghbors about should accompany the corps to the place of buryall We hold it also lawfull to lament the dead and if the dignity of the persone so require we thynke it not vnlawfull to vse some way about the buriall wherby that may appeare but yet so that there be a measure kepte bothe in the weepyng and in the charges consydering that whereas immoderate eyther weepyng or pompe was neuer no not in the tyme of the lawe allowed nowe in the time of the gospell all that is not lawfull whych was permitted in the time of the law For vnto the people of God vnder the law weeping was by so much more permitted vnto them then vnto vs by howe muche they had not so cleare a reuelation and plaine syght of the resurrection as we haue whych was y cause also why it was lawfull for them to vse more cost in the embaulmyng of the dead therby to nouryshe and to helpe their hope touchyng the resurrection wherof we haue a greater pledge by the resurrection of our sauyor Christ then they had Nowe for the thyngs whych the admonition findeth fault wyth and thereof bryngeth reason M. Doctor of hys bare credite wythout any reason or scrypture or any thyng els commendeth them vnto vs sayeth they be good And thys you shall marke to be M. doctors symple shyft throughoute hys booke that when he hath no coloure of scripture nor of reason no name nor title of doctor theÌ„ to make vp some thyng he varyeth hys affirmation by all the figures he can as in saying simplye that it is so and then in askyng whether it be not so and after in askyng whether there is any other man will thynke that it is not so as if the woulde make vs beleeue that he setteth vs dyuers kindes of meates because he bryngeth the same in dyuers dyshes For besydes these reasons he hathe no reason eyther to proue that it is meete to haue prescript forme of seruice for the dead or that the minister should be drawne to thys charge Surely if the order be so good and conuenient it hath met with a very barren patron whych can say nothing for it And although there be enough sayd by the admonition yet because thys bold and hardy speache is enough to lead the simpler away to make them thinke that M. doctor hathe a good cause therfore I wil also say somthyng of these rites of buryal And first of all as thys almost is a generall fault in them all that they maintayne in the mindes of the ignorant the opinion of praying for the dead so is thys also a nother general fault that these ceremonyes are taken vp without any example either of the churches vnder the law or of the purest churches vnder the gospel that is of the churches in the apostles times For when the scripture descrybeth the ceremonies or rites of buryall amongste the people of God so dilygently that it maketh mention of the smallest thyngs there is no doubte but the holy Ghoste doth therby shew vs a paterne wherevnto we should also frame oure buryalles And therfore for so much as neyther the church vnder the law nor vnder the gospell when it was in the greatest puritye dyd euer vse any prescript forme of seruice in the buryall of theyr dead it coulde not be but daungerous
to take vp any such custome in the tyme of the lawe it was not only not vsed but vtterly forbidden For when the law did forbyd that the priest should not be at the buryall which ought to say or conceiue the prayers there it is cleare y the Iewes might not haue any such prescript form And yet they had most nede of it for the causes of obscure knowledge weaker fayth before alledged Againe by thys meanes a newe charge is layd vpon the minister and a taking hym away from his necessary dueties of feeding and gouerning the flocke whych being so great as a maruellous diligence will scarcely ouercome oughte not to be made greater by thys being a thyng so vnnecessary The Admonition dothe not say that the Prayers whych are sayd are for the dead but that they maintaine an opinion of prayer for the deade in the heartes of the simple and that they declare manifestly enoughe when they say that it may be partly gathered c. For the mournyng apparell the admonition sayeth not simply it is euill because it is done of custome but proueth that it is hypocritical oftētimes for that it proceedeth not from any sadnes of minde whych it dothe pretende but worne only of custome there being vnder a mourning gowne of tentimes a mery heart And considering that where there is sorow in deede for the dead there it is very hard for a man to kepe a measure that he do not lament too much We ought not to vse those meanes whereby we myght be further prouoked to sorow and so go a great way beyonde the measure whych the apostle apoynteth in mournyng no more then it was well done of the Iewes in the gospell to prouoke weping sorowe for their deade by some dolfull noise or sounde of instrument or then it was lawfull for Mary Lazarus sister to goe to her brothers graue thereby to set the print of her sorow deper in her minde Seing therefore if there be no sorowe it is hypocritical to pretend it and if there be it is very dangerous to prouoke it or to cary the notes of remēbrance of it it appeareth that this vse of mourning apparel were much better layed away then kept And here M. doctor threps a litle kindnes of the authors of the admonition sayth that they know it is very ancient whom before he denyeth to haue any knowledge of antiquity In dede it is very ancient but M. doctor is afraid to shew the ancienty of it for Cyp. and Aug. inueigh vehemently agaynst it condemnyng it as vnlawfull and vndecent Nowe touching the funerall sermons M. doctor taketh on tryumpheth maruellously as though he had already gotten the victorye but he that girdeth hys harnes should not boast as he that putteth it of There is more matter then peraduenture M. doctor is aware of that whych is set downe he answeareth not as that it norysheth an opinion that the dead are the better for it whych doth appeare in the there are none more desirous of funerall sermons then the papists whych although they can not abide the doctrine whych is preached yet they wil haue suche sermons and those whych will very seldome or not at all be at other sermons will not commonly misse one of these Furthermore for so much as the minyster is driuen oftentimes by this meanes to preach vpon a sodaine the word of God therby is negligently handled especially of those whose gyftes are not so great as that they can prouide in so small time and by thys neglygent handlyng of the word of God it is brought into contempt Moreouer consydering that these funerall sermons are at the request of rych men and those whych are in authoritye and are very seldome at the buryall of the pore there is brought into the church contrary to the word of God an acceptation of persons which ought not to be For although the minister may giue to one more honor then to an other accordyng as the callyng or degree requireth yet in hys mynistery that whych pertaineth vnto hys office he ought to shew hymselfe indifferent and therfore preach as wel at the death of the pore as of the rych and because he can not well do both it is most conuenient to leaue both If so be that M. doctor wyl say that it is good that notable and famous men shuld haue their commendation to the ende that bothe the goodnes of God towardes them myght be the better knowne and others the soner drawne to followe theyr example I graunt it is so and the scrypture dothe bothe approue it and sheweth what meane is best to doe that by For so we read that Ieremy the prophet commended that godly and zealous prince Iosias in wryting verses of hys deathe He could haue as easely preached but thys he thought the best way So did also Dauid wryte verses at the death of Saul and Ionathan and Abner in whych he commendeth their gyfts and graces whych the Lord had bestowed vpon thē There were in deede of ancient time funerall orations as appeareth in Gregory Nazianzen but they sauoured of the manner of Athens where he was brought vp where also thys custome of funerall orations was vsed as may be seene in the second boke of Thucydydes story by an oration of Pericles And althoughe thys custome was not in Nazianzeus time so corrupt as afterwardes yet the departing from the examples of the purer churches gaue occasion of further corruption whych ensued And to say the truth it was better vsed amongst the Athenians then amongst the christians For there it was merely ciuill and the oration at the death of some notable personage made not by a minister but by an Orator appoynted therfore whych I thinke may well be done And if M. doctor will say that there myght be sermones although they be not mentioned neyther in the old testament nor in the new I haue answered before that seeing the holy ghost doth describe so dilygently the least circumstances of burial he would not haue omitted that being the greatest And let it be obserued that thys deuise of mannes braine bryngeth forth the same frute that other do the is dryueth quite away a necessary duety of the minister whych is to comfort wyth the worde of God the parties whych be greued at the death of their frends that consideryng the sore is perticular he apply vnto it a perticular plaister whych is very seldome or neuer done and yet a necessary duety as of a good christian so especially of the minister whych can best do it and to whome it most appertaineth And whereas M. doctor asketh when there is a better time to speake of death and of mortality then at buryall surely if it had ben so fit the Prophets and apostles would neuer haue lost that oportunity or let pas that occasion of aduancing and making effectuall their preaching What if it be answered that for as muche
to be dennes of loyterors and idle persones whylest there are nouryshed there some whych serue for no profitable vse in the church their offyces being suche as bryng no commoditye but rather hurte of whych numbre certen are whych the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page some other which hauing charges in other places vnder the coloure of their prebendes there absent them selues from them and that whych they spoyle and rauen in other places there they spend and make good cheare wyth and therfore not wythout good cause called dennes Finally there being nothyng there whych might not be much better applied and to the greater commodity of the churche whylest they myght be turned into colledges where yong men myght be brought vp in good learning made fitte for the seruice of the church and common wealthe the vniuersities being not able to receyue that numbre of scholers wherwyth their neede may be supplyed And where M. Doctor sayth that that whych is spoken of the Queenes maiestyes chappell is worthy rather to be punyshed then confuted if so be that these be abuses the example of them in her maiesties chappell can not be but most daungerous whych wyth all humble submission and reuerence I beseeche her maiesty duely to consider And as for the reasons which M. doctor bringeth to establishe them in the 225. page as that they are necessary whych he doth barely say and that s Aug. alloweth of a Deane and that the authors of the Admonition are instruments of those whych desire the spoile of them and that a man may as well speake against vniuersities colledges as against them I haue answeared before sauing that it is to be feared that colledges in vniuersities if M. doctor may worke y which he goeth about wil shortly be in little better case then those cathedral churches whych not only by hys own example but wyth might and maine and al endeuor possyble goeth about to fill and fraught them wyth Non residences and suche as haue charges of churches in other places whych do no good in the vniuersitye and partly are such as can do none only are pernicious examples of riotous feasting and making greate cheare wyth the prayes and spoyles whych they bryng out of the country to the great hurt of the vniuersity presently and vtter ruine of it hereafter onles spedy remedy be therfore prouided And wher he sayth it is not material although these deanes vicedeanes canons peticanōs prebēdaries c. come from the pope it is as if he shoulde saye that it skilleth not although they come out of the bottomles pit For whatsoeuer commeth from the Pope which is Antichrist commeth first from the deuill and where he addeth thys condition if it be good c. in deede if of the egges of a cockatrice can be made holesome meate to feede with or of a spiders webbe any cloth to couer with all then also may the things that come from the Pope and the Deuill be good profitable and necessary vnto the church And where he sayeth that collegiate churches are of great auncientie he proueth not the auncientie of the cathedrall churches onles he proue that cathedrall and collegiate be all one But I will not sticke wyth hym for so small a matter if our controuersy were of the names of these churches and not of the matter I could be content to graunt hys cause in this poynt as good as antiquitie without the word of God which is nothing but rottennes could make it But for so much as those auncient collegiate churches were no more lyke vnto these which we haue now then things most vnlyke our cathedrall churches haue not so much as thys olde worne cloke of antiquity to hide theyr nakednes and to keepe out the shoure For the collegiate churches in times past were a senate Ecclesiasticall standing of godly learned mynisters elders which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in the citie or towne where suche churches were and for that in suche great cities and townes commonly there were the most learned pastors and auncientes therefore the townes and villages rounde about in hard and difficult causes came and had their resolutions of theyr doubtes at theyr handes euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteronomie that when there was any great matter in the countrey which the Leuites in matters pertayning to God and the Iudges in matters pertayning to the common wealth could not discusse that then they should come to Ierusalem where there was a great numbre of Priestes Leuites and learned Iudges of whome they should haue their questions dissolued and thys was the first vse of collegiate churches Afterward the honor which the smaller churches gaue vnto them in asking them counsell they tooke vnto them selues and that which they had by the curtesy and good will proceeding of a reuerent estimation of them they dyd not only take vnto them of right but also possessed them of all authority of hearing and determyning any matters at all And in the ende they came to thys which they are now which is a company that haue strange names and strange offyces vnhearde of of all the purer churches of whome the greatest good that wee can hope of is that they doe no harme For although there be dyuers which doe good yet in respect that they bee Deanes Prebendaries Canons Petycanons c. for my part I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them And where hee sayeth they are rewardes of learning in deede then they should be if they were conuerted vnto the mayntenance and bringing vp of scholers where now for the most part they serue for fat morsels to fill if it might be the gredy appetites of those which otherwyse haue enough to lyue with and for holes and dennes to keepe them in which eyther are vnworthy to be kept at the charge of the church or else whose presence is necessary and duetifull in other places and for the most part vnprofitable there Last of all whereas M. Doctor sayeth that we haue not to follow other churches but rather other churches to follow vs I haue answeared before thys only I adde y they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctryne but those which made the people of God beleeue that they were happy when they were not and that their estate was very good when it was corrupt Of the which kynde of false prophecie Ieremy especially doth complayne And therefore onles M. Doctor amend hys speach leaue thys crying peace peace all is wel when there are so many things out of order and that not by the iudgement of the admonition fauorers therof only but euē of al which are not willingly blind I say if he do not amend these speches the crime of false prophesy will sit closer vnto him thē he shal be euer able to shake of in the terrible day of the lord The next section I haue answeared in the treatise