taketh away life nor fire that consumeth the body which I moue vnto but it is the sworde of correction and discipline which may by sundrie other meanes be drawne out than by shedding of bloud That sword of discipline I call for still and say wyth Zuinglius If it be permitted that euery In his Epistle before his booke called Ecclesiastes man may freely defend his errors and spread abrode in the Church false doctrine there wil be more contentions sectes and discorde among Christian Churches than euer there was among Infidels And again If euery man may without controlment preach among the people his own priuate phansie and opinion contrary to the determination and authority of the Church it will shortly come to passe that we shall haue more errors than Christians If I haue accused any man vniustly there is a lawe whervnto I am subiecte but your words are not of that weight neither your defense suche that therefore they please or satisfie wise men bicause you speake them If they can say no more for them selues than you haue sayd for thē then they must remayne still in the same suspicion If there be any iust cause why ye shoulde haue the good abearing agaynst any man if you will come foorthe and orderly require it I am sure you may haue it But oh the mildnesse the patience and the quietnesse of this spirite of yours To the godly Readers grace and peace from God c. TWo treatises ye haue heere ensuing beloued in Christ which ye muste reade without a 1. Thes. 5. 21 Iam. 1. 19. 20 Iam. ▪ 2. 1. parcialitie or blinde affection For otherwyse you shall neither see their meaning nor refrayne your selues from rashly condemning of them without iust cause For certayne men there are of great countenance whiche will not lightly like of them bicause they principally concerne their persons and vniust dealings ▪ whose credite is great and whose friends are many we meane the lordely Lords Archbishops Bishops Suffraganes Deanes Doctors Archdeacons Chauncellours and the rest of that proude generation whose kingdome muste downe holde they neuer so harde b cause their tyrannous Lordship can not stande b Math. 15. 23 Luc. 16. 15. with Christes kingdome And it is the speciall mischiefe of our Englishe Churche and the chiefe cause of backwardnesse and of all breache dissention For they whose authoritie is c Mat 20. 25. 26. Mat. 23. 8. 9 10. Mar. 10. 42. 43. Luc. 22. 15. c. forbidden by Christ wil haue their stroke without their felow seruants yea though vngratiously cruelly and Popelike they take vppon them to d Mat. 24 48 49. beate them and that for their own childish Articles beeing for the most part against the manyfest truthe of God First by experience their rigour hathe too playnely appeared euer since their wicked raigne and specially for the space of these fiue or sixe yeres last past togither Of the enormities whiche with suche rigour they maynteine these treatises do in parte make mention iustly crauing redrèsse thereof But the matters do require a larger discourse Onely the authors of these thoughte it their partes to admonishe you at this time of those inconueniences whiche men seeme not to thinke vpon and whiche without reformation can not but increase further dissention the one parte beeing proude pontificall and tyrannous and the worde of God for the other parte expresse and manifest as if it pleased the state to examine the matters it woulde be euident And woulde to God that free conference in these matters might be had For howsoeuer learned and many they seeme to be they should may in this realme find inowe to match them and shame them too if they holde on as they haue begonne And out of this realme they haue all the best reformed Churches throughout Christendome agaynst them But in a fewe wordes to say what we meane Either muste we haue a right e Math. 9. 37. 38. Ephe. 4. 11. 12. ministerie of God and a right f Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. gouernment of his Churche according to the Scriptures set vp both which we lacke or else there can be no right religion nor yet for contempt thereof can g Pro. 29. 18. Amos. 8. 11. 12. c. Ma. 21. 23. c. 1. Cor. 11. 30 Gods plagues be from vs any while differred And therefore though they linke in togither and sclaunderously charge poore men whome they haue made poore with grieuous faults calling them Puritans worse than the Donatists exasperating setting on such as be inauthoritie agaynst them hauing hitherto miserably handled thē with r uilings ▪ depriuations imprisonments banishments suche like extremities yet is these poore mens cause neuer the h Mat. 10. 16. 26. worse nor these chalengers the better nor God his i Esai 59. 1. hand the further of to linke in with his agaynst them nor you christian brethren must neuer the rather without examination k Exo. 23. 1. 2. Mat. 7. 1. 2. Iam 4. 11. 12 condemne them But thankfully take this taste whiche God by these treatises offereth you and weigh them by the worde of God and do your endeu ur euery man in his l 1. Cor. 5. 20 1. Cor. 7. 27 calling to promote his cause And let vs all with more m Psal. 50. 15. Mat. 7. 7. 1. Tim. 2. 1. 2 earnest prayer than we are wont earnestly commende it to God hys blessing and namely that it will please him by his spirite to lighten the heart of our most gracious Soueraigne and the rest in authoritie to the benefite of his small flocke and the ouerthrowe of their proude enimies that godlinesse may by them proceede in peace and God his glory through Iesus Christ be throughly aduaunced Whiche we call God to witnesse is our onely labour and suite And so presently we leaue you hartily beseeching God to graunt it Amen ¶ An answere to the Preface of the Admonition THese two treatises contayned in this Admonition as they be voyde of sound learning so are they full of blinde affection and stuffed with vncharitable and vnchristian Arrogancie and vnchristian speches of the Libellers termes and phrases Wherfore it is to be feared that they proceede not of loue but of hatred not of zeale but of malice not of humilitie but of arrogancie not of minds desirous to reforme but of stomackes seeking to deforme and confounde that which is in due forme and order by lawfull authoritie established For what charitable zealous and humble spirite would so spitefully and slaunderously speake of their brethren whose doctrine is pure whose zeale is feruent whose suffering for the Gospell hath beene in time of triall comparable with any mans that nowe liueth who haue also paynefully taught the worde of God in this Realme and do at this day and by whose ministerie the Gospell hathe taken roote and is come to that encrease that nowe God be thanked appeareth Surely
the vnitie of the Church is conserued not by hauing one Bishop ouer all but by the agreement of the Bishops one with another For so he writeth that the church is knit and coupled togither as it were with the giue of the Bishops consenting one with an other And as for the compounding of controuersies it is manyfest that it was not done by one Byshop in a prouince but those byshops whych were neere the place where the schisme or heresie sprang For speaking of the appeasing of controuersies schismes and shewing how dyuers Bishops Li. 1. epi. 4 were drawen into the heresy of Nouatus he sayth that the vertue and strength of the Christians was not so decayed or anguished but that there was a portion of Priests which did not giue place vnto those rumes and shipwrackes of fayth And in another place he sayth therfore most deare brother the plentyfull body or company Li. 3. epi. 1 of the pr ests are as it were with the g ue of mutuall concorde and bande of vnitie ioyned togither that if any of our company be author of an heresy and goe about to destroy and rent the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and mercyfull shepheards gather togither the sheepe of the Lorde Whereby it is many fest that the appeasing and composing of controuersies and heresies was not then thought to be most fitte to be in one bishops hande but in as many as coulde conuemently assemble togither according to the daunger of the heresie which sprang or depe roote which it had taken or was like to take Io. Whitgifte The Bishops agrée not one whit the worse when they haue a superior by whom they may be called togither and put in minde of their office and duetie Neyther doth Cyprian deny this when he affirmeth the other For thoughe the chiefe cause of vnitie is the consente and agreement of the Bishops one with another yet to haue one that shall haue the chiefe care thereof must néedes be a great helpe thervnto euen as it is in other societies For if the Bishops were deuided among themselues at variance and had no superiour who should compounde the controuersies Our Archbishops doe not take vpon them neyther can they to decide any controuersie Howe farre our Archbishops deale in controuersies in doctrine and religion of their owne authoritie but therein doe they deale eyther according to the lawes of the Churche prouided for that purpose or else expecte a newe Parliament or Synode Neyther doth any Bishop in his Dioces otherwise meddle in suche matters than by the common consent of the Churche is appoynted vnto him and yet it was neuer otherwise taught by any but that a Bishop in hys owne Diocesse or an Archebishop in his Prouince mighte vse persuasions to ende controuersies and execute the lawes prouided for the same other kinde of deciding controuersies by any priuate authoritie I knowe none in this Church of Englande Wherfore al these allegations be but in vayne for surely not in Cyprians time was the determining of suche controuersies committed to the Pastor and Seigniorie of euery Parishe neyther doth Cyprian make mention of any suche matter if he did yet for gouernment the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church is to be considered Tract 2. 3. as I haue before noted Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 77. Sect. 4. And that there was in his time no such authoritie giuen as that any one might remoue the causes or controuersies which rose as now we see there is when the Bishop of the Di es taketh the matters in controuersie which rise in any Church within his Dioces from the minister Elders to whom the decision perteyneth and as when the archebishop taketh it away from the Bishop it may appeare in the same thirde Epistle of the first booke where he sayth after this sort It is ordeyned and it is equall and right that euery mans cause should be there heard where the fault was committed And a little after he sayth It is meete to handle the matter there where they maye haue both accusers and witnesses of the faulte whiche although it be spoken of them whiche fled out of Affrike vnto Rome yet the reason is generall and dothe aswell serue agaynst these ecclesiasticall persons whych wyll take vnto them the deciding of those controuersies that were done a hundred myle of them Io. Whitgifte Cyprian as I sayd speaketh not one worde of your Seigniorie in that place by you alleages he speaketh of the seueral Prouince ▪ 〈◊〉 Dioces of euery bishop would haue euery matter ended in that Prouince 〈◊〉 Diocesse where it is cōmitted therfore he speaketh there of suche as fled out of Affrica into Italie to haue their matters heard so that this place is soluted by your owne selfe It is méete that the matter should be there handled where there may be had bothe accusers witnesses And that was one of the reasons that the Councel of Affrica sed agaynst the Bishop of Rome clayming interest in hearing appeales from thence But there is no Prouince in Englande so large but that both the accusers and witnesses may be brought into any parte of it from any other parte This reason of yours maye serue better agaynst Westminster hall which is but one place to serue the whole Realme for deciding of controuersies and yet I thinke it very necessarie ▪ You may not wrest that to your purpose or proof of Seigniorie or authoritie therof whiche Cyprian speaketh of diuers Prouinces yea diuers Countreys and Nations This is no good reason Cyprian mislyked the translating of causes from Affrica to Rome Ergo there maye be no causes remoued from Northampton to London Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 77. Sect. 5. And whereas M. Doctor in bothe places of Cyprian seemeth to stande much vpon the words one Bishop and priest the reason thereof dothe appeare in another place of Cyprian moste manyfestly L 3. epi. 13 and that it maketh no more to proue that there ought to be one archebishop ouer a whole prouince than to say that there ought to be but one husbande proueth that therefore there should be but one husbande in euery countrey or prouince whiche shoulde see that all the rest of the husbands do their duties to their wiues For this was the case a Nouatian heretike beeing condemned cast out of the Churches of Affrica by the consent of the Bishops not able by embassage sent to them to obteyne to be receyued to their cōmunion fellowship agayne oeth afterwards to Rome and beeing likewise there repelled in time getteth himselfe by certayne which fauoured his heresie to be chosen Bishop there at Rome Cornelius beeing the Bishop or pastor of those which were there godly minded whervpon it commeth that Cyprian vrgeth one Bishop one priest in the church bicause at Rome there was two wherof one was a wolfe
and they are to vveake to pull downe Stultitia nata est in corde pueri virga disciplinae fugabit illam Prouerb 22. It is but vvantonnesse correction will helpe it Thus haue I answered in his behalfe who bothe in this and other lyke controuersies might haue bene a greate stay to this Churche of Englande if we hadde bene worthie of him But whilest he liued and especially after his notable and most profitable trauailes he receiued the same reward of wicked and vngrateful tongues that other men be exercised with and all must looke for that will doe their duetie But nowe agayne to T. C. The causes of Archbishops and of their prerogatiues and the estate of the olde Bishops assigned by T. C. examined Chap. 5. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 94. Sect 4. Now I haue shewed howe little those things which M. Doctor bringeth make for proofe of that wherfore he alleageth them I will for the better vnderstanding of the reader se e downe what were the causes why the Archbishops were fyrst ordeyned ▪ and what were their prerogatiues and preheminences before other Bishops and the estate also of the olde Bishoppes which lyued in those tymes wherein although there were great corruptions yet the Churche was 〈◊〉 some tollerable estate to the intent it may appeare partly how 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we haue of them now partly also howe great difference there is betwene oures and them O the names of Metropolitanes it hath bene spoken howe that he shoulde not be called the chiefe o priests or the high priest or Bishop of Bishops Now I will set downe their office and power whiche they hadde more than the Bishoppes Io. Whitgifte If you haue no more truthe in your words folowing than y u vtter in the beginning of these or if you deale no soundlyer in them than you haue done in the other M. Doctors proofes shall serue the turne But it is in vayne to answere wordes I will therfore come to your matter Chap. 5. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 94. Sect. 5. In the Councel of Antioche it appeareth that the Bishop of the Metropolitane seat called (a) An vnt 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 there is no suche thing in that much cano ▪ Chap. 9. Synodes propounded the matters which were to be handled c. The archbishop doth not ew call Synodes but the Prince doth forasmuche as there is no conuocation without a parliament and he dothe not propounde the matters and gather the voyces but an other chosen whiche is called prolocutor therefore in the respecte that an Archbishop and Metropolitane was tyrst ordeyned we haue no neede of an Archebishop or Metropolitane Agayne an other cause also appeareth there (b) An 〈◊〉 truthe whiche was to see that the Bishops kepte them selues within their owne di cesse and brake not into an others Diocesse but fyrste this maye be doone withoute an Archebishoppe and then it is not doone of the Archebishop himselfe giuing licences vnto the wandering ministers to goe thoroughout not so fewe as a dosen diocesse therefore the office of an archbishop is not necessarie in this respecte and if it were yet it muste be other than it is nowe Io. Whitgifte There is no Councell more flatte agaynst you than is that Councell of Antioche nor any Canon that ouerthroweth your assertion more directely than that ninth Canon the woordes whereof I haue repeated before but youre vntrue allegation in a manner compelleth me to repeate them agayne that the Reader may see before his eyes what truthe there is in your doings And although it do perteyne to the office of the Metropolitane or Archebishoppe to call Synodes yet is there not one woorde thereof in this Cannon nor yet of propounding any matters in Synodes or of seyng Bishoppes keepe themselues within theyr owne diocesse as you doe here auouche without all truthe and notwithstanding as I sayde before those things doe perteine to the office of the Archebishoppe yet if they were also comprehended in that Canon it were rather a confirmation of that office than otherwyse The contentes of that Canon be onely these firste it sayeth that it behoueth the Bishoppes of euery countrey or prouince to knowe theyr Metropolitane Bishoppe to haue the care and ouersighte or gouernment ouer the whole Prouince By the whiche woordes the authoritie and name of a Metropolitane or Archebishoppe is moste pl ynely confirmed and proued to be a permanent off ce Secondly this Canon willeth all those that haue any businesse to doe to resorte to the Metropolitane citie Whereby also is giuen to the Metropolitane Bishop greate preheminence and therefore it followeth immediatly that he shoulde excell all the reste in honour and that the other Bishoppes shoulde doe nothing of importance without him according to the olde rule made by their forefathers but onely those thyngs whiche perteyne to theyr owne diocesse and those places and possessions that perteine vnto the same In whiche wordes who séeth not what preheminence is giuen to the Metropolitane ouer all the Bishoppes in hys Prouince and what iurisdiction to the Bishop in his owne diocesse and places perteyning vnto it where also it is to be noted that the Councell sayeth secundiòn antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam according to the auncient rule appointed of oure forefathers Whyche argueth a greate antiquitie of this office Then it followeth for euery Bishop hath authoritie ouer his owne Diocesse to rule and gouerne it iuxta reuerentiam singulis competentem accordyng to the reuerence due vnto euerie one of them and that he hathe especiall care of that whole region that i subiecte to his Citie so that he maye ordeyne Priestes and Deaeons singulasuo iuditio comprehendat But he may not attempt any other thyng without the Metropolitane Bishop nor the Metropolitane do any thing without the counsel of the other Priests What can bée more playne eyther for the authoritie of the Arche bishoppe or iurisdiction of the Bishop and what one worde of this Canon haue you truely alleadged and yet it is quoted in your margent But if we imagine those thinges to be true whiche you saye howe will you conclude forsooth that the Metropolitane did then call Synodes and propounded the matters but nowe he dothe not call Synodes and propounde the matters Therefore there is nowe no neede of a Metropolitane Firste it is vntrue that Metropolitanes did then call eyther all Synodes or that they called them of theyr owne authoritie without the consente of the Prince and Ciuill Magistrate whiche thing is euident when the Magistrates were christened The Councell of Nice was summoned by the commaundement of Constantine Co cels sum moned by Princes Euse de vita Constan lib. 3. the Emperoure Eusebius de vita Constanti lib. 3. Constantius called the Councell whyche was in Sardica ciuitate The Bishoppes in the Councell of Constanti confesse that they came together by the Emperoures wrytte Ambrose in the Councell of Aquileia speaking of him
good neighbours or else for tootoo much selfe loue oftentymes forget this lesson as in this place Howsoeuer the Grecians vsed to call euery one of any meane countenance in the common The tytle of most honourable Lorde wealth where he lyued 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lorde yet did they not vse to call him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 most honourable Lorde for that tytle was onely giuen to such as were of great dignitie and authoritie as it is in the place of Theodorete by you quoted giuen to Bishops and therefore you haue made an obiection which you cannot answere This worde Lorde doth signifie preheminence and superioritie and hauing this title most honourable ioyned with it it cannot but signifie some greate state and degrée of authoritie The same I answere to that which followeth And yet Rabbi was a name gyuen primarijs hominibus honore aliquo praeditis to the chiefe men and those which were Rabbi indued with some honour and in that the Euangelistes do translate it Lorde it is manifest that this name Lorde signified then a degrée of superioritie but hauing as I sayde this tytle most honourable added vnto it as it is in that place of Theodorete it cannot but signifie some especiall preheminence and therefore equiualent with the titles now vsed Master Caluine vpon the. 20. of Iohn verse 16 sayth that Rabboni Caluine which is there interpreted master is nomen non modò onorificum not onely an honouble name but also quod professionem continet obedientiae such as conteyneth a profession of obedience But doe the tytles of honour and degrée giuen vnto Bishops so much trouble your hawtie stomacke Surely you are not then of that spirit that the olde auncient Uerie honourable titles giuē to bishops fathers were who disdeyned not to call Bishoppes by as honourable tytles as wée doe looke in Atha his 2. Apol you shall there find the Synode gathered at Ierusalem writing to the Priestes of Alexand call Athanasius sundrie tymes Dominum not as by Atban Apol a common tytle but a tytle of dignitie quum vobis restituet pastorem vestrum dominum comministrum nostrum At h nasium VVhen he shall restore vnto you your Pastor and Lorde our fellow minister Athanasius In the same Apol. Bishops are called domini preciosissimi most excellent or worthie Lordes And it is euident in the same booke that there was no other tytle gyuen to the Emperoure himselfe for there hée is onely called Lorde and so were other of his Nobles in like maner So that in those dayes it was not grudged at to giue vnto Bishoppes the same ty les of honour that was giuen to the Emperour other Nobles The name of most reuerend is as much as the name of most honourable and yet was that name also giuen vnto Bishops in Athanasius tyme as appeareth in the same booke in sundrie places For Athanasius him selfe is called by his Priestes and Deacons reuerendissimus Episcopus Eusebius Nicomed wryting to Paulinus Bishop of Tyrus vseth this style Domino meo Paulino c. To my Lorde Paulinus to 1. con But what shoulde I labour to proue the antiquitie of such tytles which cannot be vnknowne to such as be learned I had more neede to declayme agaynst the pryde and hautinesse of such as do disdaine to vse them but I will not spende paper in wordes Chap. 5. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 5. 6. And as touching Ambrose house albeit the worde doth not employ so great gorgeou nesse nor maginfycence of a house as the Palaces and o her magnificall buildings of our Bishops yet the cause where vpon this rose doth more excuse Ambrose who being taken from great wealth and gouernment in the common wealth giuing ouer his office did reteyne (*) It was the house belonging to the Bishop his house and that which he had gotten But our Bishops A heape of slaunders do mainteyne this pompe and excesse of the charges of the Church with whose goodes a great number of ydle loytering seruing men are mainteyned which ought to be bestowed vpon the Ministers which want necessarie finding for theyr familyes and vpon the poore and maintenance of the Uniuersityes As for these ryotous expences of the Church goodes when many other Ministers want and of making great dinners and interteyning great Lordes and magistrates and of the answere to them that say they do helpe the Church by this meanes I will referre the reader to that which Ierome wryteth in an Epistle ad Nepotianum monachum where this is handled more at large Io. Whitgifte Your answere for Ambrose his house hath no probabilitie in it for the wordes Ambrose house within the bounds of the Church of Theodorete in that place do plainly declare that it was neare vnto the Churche yea infra sept Ecclesiae within the bondes or close of the Church and therefore most like to be the house perteyning to the Bishoprike and not any part of Ambrose his former 〈◊〉 For if you remember you sayde a little before that it was decréed in the. 4. Councell of Carthage Can. 14. that a Bishop shoulde haue his house neare vnto the Church But wise men can consider from whence such vnlikely assertions without any shew of proofe do come Bishops buylde not these great houses of the Churches goodes but receyue them Bishops defended against the slaunderous replie as left vnto them by such as were farre from séeking a spoyle they vso them according to the lawes of the lande and their number of men can in no respect be discommended tending to the defense and strength of the realme the honour of the Prince and their owne honest and góod education Our Bishops therefore vse the goodes of the Church according to the first institution and foundation and I doubt not but they vse them to more profite both of the Church and common wealth than they should be vsed if your phansies might take place Your complaint for ministers for the poore c. may be otherwise satisfyed than by Prouision 〈◊〉 ministers a spoyle For if benefices were rightly vsed the Ministers of thys Kealme are better prouided for than in any rountrey or age yea there are mo sufficient lyuings for them besydes the Bishoprikes than can be supplyed with able ministers The poore also are well prouided for God be thanked by sundrie meanes if lawes ròuision for the poore made for the same were duely executed and Hospitalles with suche other prouisions delyuered from vnreasonable Leases and bestowed vppon the poore according to their fyrst ordinaunces Wherefore this clamour of yours is nothing but the Where vnto the Repliers clamour tendeth The same axe is lifted against Uniuersities that hacketh at byshops landes voyce of an enuious spirite proclayming the spoyle of the Churche to the decay of learning and bringing in of barbarisme if it be not in time preuented The Uniuersityes are much beholding to you
for your care ouer them but what reasons haue you vsed agaynst the lyuings and houses of Byshoppes that may not also be vsed agaynst their landes and Colledges for in tymes past when that Councell of Carthage before by you alledged was holden there were nosuche Colledges indued with such possessions as there are nowe Neyther are there as I haue hearde in Christendome the like Colledges and the like liuings for Studie es as are in this Realme of Englande Wherefore if such examples and conditions of Countries tymes and persons bée sufficient to ouerthrowe Bishoppes houses and landes I sée not howe Colledges can stande long after them and therefore we pray you speake for your selfe we require not the helpe of so euill a Proctour Woulde you séeke to mainteyne learning with the spoyle of the Churche and the diminishing of the rewarde of learning An non vides quà m pugnanti loqueris By that Epistle of Ierome ad Nepotianum it appeareth that the state of the Clergie was not then so poore as you woulde séeme to make it Ierome reproueth the abuses The thing must not be condemned for the abuse of his time as couetousnesse gluttonie gorgeous and costly apparell with such lyke which at all tymes are in lyke maner to be condemned But doth he that reproueth the abuse condemne the thing It is a fault by couetous or vniust dealing to waxe riche but yet it is no fault to be riche Pride in apparell is to be condemned but yet euerie man may lawfully weare that apparell that is méete for his degrée No man alloweth gluttonie or immoderate seasting neyther doth any wise man condenme a plentifull table and good house kéeping It is not good dealing to applie that which is spoken agaynst the abuse of a thing to the condemning and quite euer throw of the thing it selfe as you d the wordes of Ierome in that Epistle Chap. 5. the. 22. Diuision T. C. Pag. 98. Lin. 2. By this which I haue cyted it appeareth what was one cause of this excesse and stately ompe of the Byshoppes namely that certaine noble and riche men beyng chosen to the ministerie and liuing somewhat like vnto the former estates wherein they were before others also assayed to be like vnto them as we see in that poynt the nature of man is to readie to followe if they see any example before theyr eyes But there is no reason bicause Ambrose and such like did so therefore our Bishops shoulde do it (*) This is before answered of the Churches costes Nor bicause Ambrose and such lyke did tarie in their trim houses which they had built them selues of their owne charge before they were Bishops that therfore they should come out of their chambers or narrow houses into courts and pallaces builded of the Churches costes Io. Whitgifte Where haue you shewed any such thing by Ambrose his example or how doth it appeare that by such meanes the pompe of the Bishops as you cal it was brought in That which you speake of Ambrose house is most vntrue it was perteyning to the Byshop and no part of Ambrose his proper possessions as it is euident by this that it was neare vnto the Churche euen within the limits of the Church as I haue sayde before Chap. 5. the. 23. Diuision T. C Pag. 98. Sect. 1. Another reason of this pompe and statelinesse of the Bishops was that which almost brought in all poyson and popish corruption into the church and that is a foolish emulation of the manners and fashions of the idolatrous nations For as this was the crafte of Sathan to drawe away the Israelites from the true seruice of God by theyr fonde desyre they had to conforme themselues to the fashions of the Gentiles so to punish vnthankefull receyuing of the Gospell and to fulfill the Prophecies touching the man of sinne the Lord suffred those that professed Christ to corrupt thei wayes by the same sleyght of the Diuell Io. Whitgifte If it be inough to say without any kinde of proofe then you haue sayd some thing T. C. still offende h 〈◊〉 petitione princip but if woordes without proofes be but light then are these woordes so to be estéemed not otherwise I know the Papistes through foolish imitation of the Gentiles haue brought in sundrie superstitions of the Gentiles But I speake of the matter we haue in hande that is inequalitie of degrées and authoritie among the ministers of the Churche and the names and offices of Archbishop Bishop Archdeacon c. which you neyther haue shewed nor can shew to be brought into the Churche by any imitation of the Gentiles and therefore you do still Petere principium Chap. 5. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. 2. Galerianus Maximinus the Emperour to the ende that he might promote the idolatrie and Euseb. 8. 〈◊〉 15. superstition where vnto he was addicted chose o the choysest magistrates to be priestes and that they might be in great estimation gaue eche of them a trayne of men to followe them (a) A 〈◊〉 collection and now the Christians and Christian Emperours thinking that that would promote the Christian religion that promoted superstition and not remembring that it is often tymes abhominable before God which is esteemed in the eies of men ▪ endeuoured to make their Bishops encoūter and match with those idolatrous priestes and to cause that they should not be inferiour to them in wealth and outwarde pompe And therefore I conclude that seing the causes and fountaynes from whence this pompe and statelinesse of Bishops haue come are so corrupt and naught the thing it self which hath rysen of such causes can not be good Io. Whitgifte There is no such thing in that place of Eusebius quoted in your margent for in that booke and chapter of Eusebius he onely sheweth that Inchaunters and Sorcerers were greatly estéemed of Maximinus and that he buylded Churches of Idols in euery Citie and appoynted idolatrous Priestes in euery place also that he placed in euery prouince one to be chiefe ouer the rest furnished him with souldiers and seruants but there is not one woorde that any Christian Prince toke any example of him to do the like in Christianitie It rather appeareth that Maximinus did in this point imitate the Christians who had theyr Metropolitanes and one chiefe Bishop in euery prouince long before this time as I haue declared before And I sée no cause why you should say that Christians did follow the Gentiles rather in prouiding for the ministers of the Gospell sufficiently than in buylding of Churches in euery Citie and placing ministers in them for Maximinus did this aswell as he did the other This I am well assured of that there is no such signification in that place of Eusebius that any Christian Prince should follow this example And therefore your conclusion beyng collected and gathered of such false and vntrue coniectures must néedes be lyke vnto them I do not
speake to mayntayne any excessiue or outrageous pompe but I speake of the egrees in the Ecclesiasticall state and of the manners and conditions of the persons as they be now according to the lawes and customes allowed in this Church of England Chap. 5. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. 3. And thus will I make an end leauing to the consideration and indifferent waying of the indifferent reader how true it is that I haue before propounded that our Archbishops Metropolitanes Archdeacons Bishops haue besides the names almoste nothing common 〈◊〉 those which haue bene in lder tymes before the sunne of the Gospell beganne to be maruelously darkened by the stinking mistes which the Diuell sent forth out of the bottomlesse pit to blynde the eyes of men that they should not see the shame and nakednesse of that purpled whoore which in the person of the Cleargie long before she gatte into hir seate prepared hir selfe by payntyng hi writhen face with the colours of these gorgeous titles and with the shewe of magnificall and worldly pompe For the Diuell knewe well inough that if he should haue set vp one onely Byshop in that seate of perdition and lefte all the reste in that simplicitie wherein God had appoynted them that his eldest sonne shoulde neyther haue had any way to get into that and when he had gotten it yet beyng as it were an owle amongst a sorte of byrdes should haue bene quickly discouered Io. Whitgifte And I also leaue it to the iudgement of the learned and indifferent Reader 〈◊〉 consider by that which I haue sayde before how vntrue all this is that you here affirme I speake of these degrées and offices as they be nowe vsed in this Churche of England if there be any difference it is bycause they haue not so large and ample iurisdiction and authoritie now as they had then Sathan worketh by sundrie meanes and spareth no fetches to bring to passe his The subtiltie of Sathan in counterfeyte godlinesse must not preiudice that which is true purpose Under the pretence of zeale he hath ingendred sectes and schismes vnder the title of puritie perfection he hath brought in heresie vnder the cloake of simplicitie he hath spread abrode many kindes of idolatrie and superstition vnder the shadow of humilitie he hath couered vntollerable ambition and marueylous arrogancie and what soeuer he bringeth to passe commonly he doth it vnder the colour of vertue and of that which is good and therefore I thinke that euen vnder the names and titles of lawfull degrees and calling he hath established vnlawfull authoritie but neyther is true zeale puritie perfection simplicitie humilitie nor yet lawfull degrées and callings therefore to be condemned Viti as Cyprian sayeth vicin sunt virtutibus Vices Discretion is very necessary be very nigh vnto vertues and the one laboureth to imitate the other but we must not therefore the lesse estéeme of vertue but rather learne prudently to discerne what is the difference betwixt the one and the other If we haue not learned this lesson what state in the common wealth what office what degrée of person nay what kinde of gouernment shall we allowe it is the greatest folly in the worlde to condemne the thing it selfe bycause of the abuse Chap. 5. the. 26. Diuision T. C Pag. 98. Sect. 3. But I haue done only this I admonish the reader that I do not allowe of all those thinges A proper ca eat which I before alleaged in the comparison betwene our Archbishops and the Archbishops of olde tyme or our Bishops theyrs Onely my intent is to shew that although there were corruptions yet in respect of ours they be much more tollerable and that it might appeare how small cause there is that they should alleage their examples to confirme the Archbishops and Bishops that nowe are Io. Whitgifte You do well to worke surely for now shall no man take any great aduauntage of your woordes how be it it had bene curteously done to haue let vs vnderstand what you allowe of this you haue wrytten and what you allowe not For in leauing the matter so rawly you will make vs suspect that you haue spoken you know not what Other things concerning the offices and authoritie of our Cleargie of inequalitie of degrees amongst ministers c. dispersed in other places of the Answere Chap. 6. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 75. Sect. vlt. Concerning the offices of an high commissioner iustice of peace how necessarily they be committed to some of the best wisest of the Cleargie what vice by them is bridled what inconuenience mette with what necessarie discipline vsed those know that be wise haue experience in publike affaires and gouernment There is no worde of God to proue why these offices may not concurre in one man But it is the commission that troubleth these men as for peace they are at defiance with it T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. 4. Concerning the offices of cōmissionership and how vnmeete it is that ministers of the worde should exercise them and how that the worde of God doth not permitte any such confusion of offices there shall be by Gods grace spoken of it afterwarde Io. Whitgifte And vntill that afterward be performed will I also differre that which is further to be sayd in this matter Chap. 6. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 76. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 77. Sect. 1. To be shorte they say that all these offices be plainely in Gods worde forbidden and they alleage Math. 23. Luc. 22. 1. Cor. 4. 1. Pet. 5. The places of Mathew Luke be answered before Christ beateth Tract 1. downe ambition and pryde and desire of bearing rule as he did before when he sayde be ye not called Rabbi and call no man father be not called Doctors he doth not condemne the names but the ambition of the minde In the. 1. Cor. 4. it is thus written Let a man thus thinke of vs as of the ministers of Christ c. The ministers of the worde in deede are not to be estemed as Gods but as the ministers of God Some among the Corinthians gloried in their ministers and attributed to much vnto them Here of came these factiōs I holde of Paule I of Apollo c. This teacheth your adherentes and disciples not to attribute to much to you such as you are or any other minister of Gods word It maketh nothing agaynst the names or authorities eyther of Archbishop Lordbishop or any other that you haue named who be the ministers of Christ and ought so to be esteemed The place of S. Peter cap. 5. is this Feede the flocke of God c. not as though you vvere Lordes ouer the flocke c. Peter here condemneth hautinesse contempt and tyrannie of pastors towards theyr flockes he doth not take away lawfull gouernment The Pastor hath rule and superioritie ouer his flocke but it must not be
offered It stands you vpon for it is much to your dishonestie and a great discredite to your whole cause Touching this place of S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. I say as I said before and I adde that he only reproueth such abuses as were vsed among them in their publike assemblies he speaketh not of celebrating the communion in priuate places S. Paule maketh no such opposition in that place as you speake of neyther doth he speake any thing sounding that way only he reproueth the abuse which was thē crept into the supper of the Lord among the Corinthians Quòd sacro spirituali epulo profana symposia permiscerent idque cum pauperum contumelia In that they mingled prophane Cal. in 1. Co. 11 banquetts with that holy and spirituall feast and that with the contumely of the poore as M ▪ Caluine sayth Wherefore it appeareth that either you are disposed to make good whatsoeuer they haue written be it neuer so absure or else you wittingly dissemble the true sense and meaning of this place Chap. 3. the. 11. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 80. Sect. 4. You say in your margent that Uictor Anno. 198. did first appoynt that women might baptise By this you adde more credite to the cause than you are aware of for Uictor was a godly Byshop and a Uictor a good Byshop and martyr martyr and the Church at that time was in great puritie not being long after the Apostles time But truly I can find no such thing in all his decrees onely this he saythe that suche as be conuerted of the Gentiles to the faythe of Chryste in tyme of necessitie or at the poynte of deathe may be baptised at any tyme in any place whether it be in the sea or in a riuer or in a pond or in a well so that they make a confession of their fayth he maketh no mention at all of any baptizing by women and therfore you haue doone youre cause greate iuiurie Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered here vnto Of ministring the Sacramentes in priuate places Chap. 4. the first Diuision Admonition Then they were ministred in publike assemblies nowe in priuate houses Answere to the Admonition Pag. 92. Sect. 2. The places of Scripture whereby you proue that Sacraments Baptisme m nistred in priuate places were then ministred in publike assemblies be taken out of the firste of S Marke and. 1. Cor. II. which places of scripture proue that Iohn did baptize openly and that the Lordes Supper was ministred in the publike congregation but neyther of them bothe conclude that these Sacramentes may not also be ministred vpon any occasion in priuate houses for what sequele is there in this reason al the c untrey of Iudea and they of Ierusalem went out vnto him and wer Arg non sequitur baptized of him in the riuer of Iordan confessing their synnes Ergo baptisme may not be ministred vpon any occasion in priuate houses you may as well conclude that none ought to be baptized but in the riuer of Iordan and none but such as be able to confesse their sinnes and so you shoulde seclude children from Baptisme as the Anabaptists doe T. C. Page 111. Sect. vlt. To the admonition obiecting in the nintie and two page that Iohn baptized openly amongst the congregation he answereth and sayth that it may be as well concluded that we should baptize only in the riuer of Iordane and none but those that be of age by whiche saying he giueth to vnderstand (a) Nay I giue you to 〈◊〉 the fondnesse of the argument that to baptize in the Church hath no greater necessitie than y e baptizing in Iordan nor it skilleth no more whether baptisme be ministred in the publike assemblie than it is necessatie or skilleth whether we be baptized in the ryuer of Iordan and that the baptisme of yong infants hath no better groundes than priuate baptisme hath The latter wherof both beyng absurde is tootoo 〈◊〉 vnto the baptisme of yong infantes For as of our Sauiour Christes preaching in publike places and refusyng priuate places we doe gather that the preachyng of the woorde ought to be publike Euen so of S. Iohns preaching and baptizing in open meetings we conclude that both preaching and baptizing ought to be in publike assemblies Io. Whitgifte I referre it to the learned Reader to iudge whether this be a good argumente or no Iohn baptised openly in the Riuer Iordan Ergo baptism may at no time vpon any occasion be ministred in a priuate house And if any will iudge it to be good thē will I demaunde of them why this should not be as good Iohn did baptise in Iordane Ergo none ought to be baptized but in the riuer Iordane Or this Iohn baptized suche as confessed their synnes Ergo none muste be baptised but suche as are able to make a confession of their sinnes This is that vnskilful kinte of reasoning that Zuinglius so ofte reproueth the Anabaptistes for and he calleth it an argumente à facto ad ius I doe not in any respecte speake agaynste baptizing in the Churche but doe greately commende it as a thyng moste conueniente but I doe not so tie the Sacramente to the place or publike congregation that I make it of the necessitie of the Sacramente so that it maye not vppon any occasion be ministred in a priuate house I compare not baptizing in the Churche and in the riuer Iordane together neyther doe I saye that baptizing of yong infantes hath no better groundes than priuate baptisme hath but I disallowe this kinde of proofe which the A monition vseth and I sée not why it is not of lyke force in all other the circumstances of that place and those examples that I haue alleadged Christe preached both priuately and publikely in the temple and in priuate families in great assemblies and seuerally to his owne disciples and at all tymes as occasion serued and therefore you can not conclude by the example of Christe that the preachyng of the Gospel ought only to be publike in the open congregation and at no tyme priuate vpon any occasion Chap. 4. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 112. Sect. 1. And although to some one action there concurre diuers things which partly are not to be folowed at all partly are indifferent to be followed or not followed yet neyther the vnlawfulnesse of the one to be followed nor the indifferencie of the other can hinder but there are some other things in the same action necessarie to be followed whyche maye be consydered bothe of the place of the Actes touchyng the election where I haue (a) It is sayd but not proued proued some thyngs there mentioned to be necessarie to be doone in elections although other some be not conuenient nor fit for vs to followe And I haue shewed it also by M. Caluine whiche M. Doctor allcadgeth for himselfe and by Cyprian (b) A digression from the matter to the person whose
Sozom. lib. 1. cap. 17 tom con to the Fathers of the Nicene Councell and to the Ecclesiasticall persons there gathered whiche he dothe also permitte the Byshops Elders and Deacons of Churches to do (*) A great ouersight eyther by correcting or adding or making newe if neede be And by the continuall practise of the Churche in the tyme of Christian Emperours whiche alwayes permitted vnto the ministers assembled in councels ▪ as well the determination of controuersies whiche rose as the making or the abolishing of needefull or hurtfull ceremonies as the ease requyred Also by the Emperours epistle in the first action of the councell of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperour it appeareth that it was the manner of the Emperours to confirme the ordināces which were made by the ministers and to see them kept Io. Whitgifte I learne in Eusebius Lib. 1. de vita Constan. that Constantinus is called as it were Euseb. lib. 1. de vita Const. Constantinus his rule in ecclesiasticall matters a generall Bishop appoynted of God that he also called Synodes and placed the moderator in them I learne in that seconde Booke that he made lawes and constitutions perteyning to holynesse towardes God and to the appoynting of meete thinges for the Churches of God that there shoulde be no Images worshipped none erected and set vp no enchauntmentes vsed or so thsayinges And I learne in that same Epistle Lib. 2. by you quoted that Constantinus prescribed to Eusebius what he shoulde do and what Epist. ad Eusel he should will others to do in buylding and repayring of Church ▪ s or enlarging of them neyther is there mention made of anyother Lawes or constitutions in that Epistle 〈◊〉 grosse ouersight of T. C. and surely I beleeue that those woordes whiche Constantinus speaketh to Eusebius of buylding or repayring or enlarging Churches buylded of stone you vnderstande of making restoring or enlarging of Ecclesiasticall orders and Lawes whiche if you do as your woordes playnely signifie then vnderstande you not the place abuse your Reader and caste away an argument For Constantinus woordes to Eusebius be thesc Howe hitherto by that wicked sentence and tyrannie persecuting Lib. 2. Eus. de vita Con lant Epist. ad Eus. the Ministers of our Sauiour the buyldinges of the Churches are decayed and weakened thorough negligence or soulde and made vyle for feare of imminent daunger I knowe and am fully perswaded but nowe libertie beyng restored and that Dragon thorough the prouidence of God and our ministerie banished from the gouernment of the common wealth I thinke Gods power is made manifest to all and that those whiche haue fallen into certayne sinnes eyther for feare or thorough vnbeleefe and nowe knowe the truthe Eusthius gouernour of me churches than one will returne agayne to the true and right waye of lyfe therefore admonishe all Churches whiche thou doest gouerne or any other Churches vnder the gouernment of other Bishops Priestes or Deacons that they be diligent aboute the buyldyng of theyr Churches and that they eyther repayre suche as stande still or enlarge them or if necessitie requyre buylde them newe and thou thy selfe or other for thee may requyre of the gouernours and Magistrates in the prouinces those thinges that be necessarie It is playne that Constantine in these woordes speaketh onely of materiall Churches and therefore you are greatly deceyued But if it were as you say do you not sée howe it maketh agaynst The place agaynst 〈◊〉 your selfe for what dothe more plainely appeare in that you saye he permitteth this vnto the Bishops c. than that the authoritie was in him and they were but his vicegerentes The continuall practise of Christian Churches in the tyme of Christian Magistrates Christian Princes haue exercised su authoritie in ecclesiastical cases Sozomenus lib. 1. cap. 17. before the vsurpation of the Bishop of Rome hath bene to giue to Christian Princes supreme authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall orders and lawes yea and that whiche is more in deciding of matters of religion euen in the chiefe and principall poyntes And that booke and chapter of Sozomene by you quoted declareth the same For the Bishops that came to the Councell of Nyce committed the hearing determining of theyr controuersies to the Emperour which argueth that it was then a common and vndoubted opinion receyued among them that the Emperour had authoritie to iudge in their causes and although the Emperour of modestie refused so to do saying that it was not meete for them so to vse themselues that they shoulde be iudged of other yet I am sure you will not make this a rule to exempt the Cleargie from the iurisdiction of the Ciuill Magistrate vnlesse you will take holde with the Pope and saie VVe muste iudge all and be iudged of none ▪ This modestie in Constantinus in refusing to heare the matters in controuersis among the Bishops excepted there is nothing in that firste booke and 17 ▪ chapter of Sozomene that can by any meanes serue your turne If you say that he woulde not determine any thing agaynst Arius heresie but A wise prince will take the aduise of the learned in discussing of weighty matters committed the same to the Synode and Councell of Nice I answere that therein be nothing at all abridged his authoritie ▪ but shewed his wisedome and godly care For it is the parte of a wise and godly Prince to haue such weightie matters of doctrine beyng in controuersie decreed and determined by suche as for their authoritie wisedome and learning are moste fitte to entreate of suche matters But alas how doth this argument follow Constantinus called the Councell of Nice to determine certayne matters of religion in controuersie therefore he had no authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall orders and lawes What Councell of Constantinople was that if you meane the. 5. beyng celebrated Iustinian made many Ecclesiasticall lawes Anno. 549. in the tyme of Iustinianus it is a very late testimonie for this cause the Bishops of Rome beyng then in great authoritie and yet manifest it is that no Emperour made mo Ecclesiasticall lawes bothe concerning matters of order and also of doctrine than did the Emperour Iustinianus as may be séene in the Code vnder these Titles De summa trinitate fide Catholica De sacrosanctis Ecclesijs de Episcopis Clericis de Haereticis Manichaeis Samaritanis ne sanctum Baptisma iteretur de statuis imaginibus and a number such like If you meane the sixth Councell of Constantinople as it lyke you do then are you without my compasse for that Councell was Anno. 681. and who will alleage Constantinus ▪ rogon ▪ gouerned the councell of Constantinople on 681. any authoritie of that corrupt tyme for any suche matter in controuersie and yet it is certayne that Constantinus the Emperoure did gouerne that Councell and that the Bishops on bothe sides did pleade before him at
a little after hee sayeth That hee coulde not omitte those businesse withoute the omittyng of his dutye To the same effecte dothe he speake in that Treatise that is among his Episiles in number an hundreth and ten where he desyreth the people that they woulde not moleste hym for the space of fyue dayes wyth theyr worldely matters by reason of certayne busynesse commytted vnto hym as it appeareth in these woordes It pleaseth mee and you for the care of the scriptures whych the brethren and fathers my fellowe Byshops dydde vouchesafe to laye vppon mee in Ang. epi. 110. the Councells of Numidia and Carthage for the space of fyue dayes no man shoulde trouble mee These thynges were propounded you were contente youre decree and consente was rehersed it was kepte but a small tyme and afterwardes you did violently brust in vnto mee neyther coulde I bee suffered to doe that whyche I woulde In the forenoone and in the after noone I am troubled with mennes busynesse I desyre you for Chrystes sake to suffer me to committe the care of my troubles to Eradius this yong man and prieste whome thys daye in the name of Christ I appoynt to be your bishop and my successour Possidonius nameth no elders but speaketh onely of Augustine and whosoeuer shall with diligence pervse the nintéenth chapter of Possidonius shall be enforced to confesse that he meaneth Augustine was occupyed as well in ciuill as ecclesiasticall matters and in determinyng of them as in writyng of letters for them or in giuyng of counsell Wherefore this example of Augustine is moste fitly alleaged of the Bishop of Sarum and manyfestly declareth what was the vse in his dayes touching suche matters Chap. 3. the. 15. Diuision The Bishop of Sarū in the defense of the Apol. in the. 5. parte 4. chap. 2. sect T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 2. And for the truth of thys matter that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill affayres (*) But you shall not fynde him contrary to him selfe as you surmyse I will appeale to no other than to the Bishop himselfe who doth assume playnly the same that the admonition here affirmeth Io. Whitgifte In that place the Bishop of Sarisburie speaketh onely of the Pope who vsurpeth M. Iewell speaketh not againste ciuill o ces in ministers simply but allowed them by his owne practise the whole and full authoritie of a secular Prince and doth chalenge the same iure diuino by the authoritie of Gods worde He speaketh not of suche Bishops to whome so muche ciuill authoritie is committed by the Prince as maye serue to the correction of vice and good and quyet gouernmente of the Churche forsomuch as he did himselfe exercyse the same And surely it is not well done of you thus to charge that worthie man with contrarieties vniustly For doth he that confuteth the Popes vniust claime and vngodly vsurpation of both the swords in that maner y t he claymeth vseth them condemne al maner kind of ciuil iurisdctiō by christian Princes committed to Bishops being helpes vnto them in dooing their duetie and tendyng to the good and quiet gouernmente of the Churche Surely you are good in confounding but too bad in distinguishing wherefore you haue vntruly reported of that worthie Bishop Chap. 3. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 3. And therfore I conclude that forsomuche as (*) Wherefare you not asha med of vutruthi bothe the holie scriptures do teache that ministers ought not to meddle with ciuil offices and reason and the practise of the Church do confirme it that they ought to kepe themselues within the limites of the ministerie and ecclesiastical functions least whylest they breake forth into the callyng of a Magistrate in stead of shewing them selues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is ouerseers they be founde to declare themselues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is busy bodies medlyng in things which belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whiche they knowe well mough that they ought 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say studie to adorne that charge whiche they take in hand and do professe I leaue to speake any further of this matter Io. Whitgifte Melchisedech being a Priest did exercise ciuill iurisdiction for he was king of Salem The scriptures teach that ecclesiasticall persons maye haue ciuill iurisdiction Gen 14. Aaron being a Priest did iudge the whole people in temporall matters euen in causes of inheritance Num. 27. In the. 17. of Deuteronomie there is a commaundement that ciuill matters of difficultie shal be referred to the Priests and to the iudge Elye and Samuel Priests did iudge the people in matters temporall Gen. 14. Nume 27. Deut. 17. 1. Sam. The people of Israell after theyr captiuitie were gouerned by Priestes and Prophetes as by Esdras Nehemias Mattathias c. The Scripture in no place commaundeth the contrarie nor moueth vnto it yet you are not ashamed to say that the holye scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle with ciuill offices Lykewyse in Augustines tyme it is euidente by the woordes before recited The practise of the churche concerning ciuill offices in ministers that it was not straunge but vsuall and counted a péece of duetie for Bishops to deale in Ciuil causes and that as Iudges The authours of the Centuries in the fourth Centur. chap. 7. say that Bishops in that age did giue sentence in ciuil causes if anye didde appeale from the Ciuill courtes to their authoritie Sozomene Lib. 1. cap. 9. Bishops gaue sentence in ciuil causes Cent. 4. cap. 7. Sozom. li. 1. cap. 9. wryteth thus of Constantine the Emperour This was a greate argumente of his good affection towardes Christian religion that he made a lawe for the freedome of clearkes in all places and also hee gaue libertie for those that were called into iudgemente to appeale to the Bishops if they were disposed to refuse the ciuill magistrates and he commaunded that their sentence should stand and be of more force than the sentence of the Appeale graū ted from ciuill magistrates to Bishops other iudges euen as though it had proceeded from the Emperour hymselfe And that the Magistrates and their ministers should see that acomplished that was determined and iudged in suche causes by the Bishops Nicephorns lib. 7. cap. 9. maketh mention of one Philaeas a Bishop that was greatly Niceph. lib. 7. cap. 9. commended for his wisedome and dexteritic in determining ciuill matters committed vnto him Sozomene lib. 6. cap. 32. testifieth of Epiphanius Bishop of Salamine Soz. li. 6. c. 32. Epiphanius busied with ciuill canses that together with his pastorall office he was occupyed and that with greate commendation in ciuill and politike affaires Eusebius lib. 7. cap. 32. testifieth that Dorotheus being a Priest of the Churche of Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 32. Antioche and wel learned did scrue the
so notable a peece of vvork consisteth of tvvo false principles and rotten pillers vvhereof the one is that vvee must of necessitie haue the same kynde of gouernment that vvas in the Apostles tyme and is expressed in the scriptures and no other the other is that vve may not in any vvise or in any consideratiō reteyne in the Church any thing that hath bin abused vnder the Pope if these tvvo postes be vveake yea rotten as I haue proued them to be in this my Defense then must the building of necessitie fall Touching the first it is to be vnderstanded that there is a double gouernment of the Church the one spirituall the other externall Christ onlie and none other by the operation of his spirite and directiō of his vvord spiritually gouerneth his Church and reignyng in the conscienees of the faithfull guydeth their myndes in all matters of deuotion faith and holynesse and this is the spirituall kingdome of Christ so much spoken of in the scriptures and speciallie in the Prophets of this kynde of gouernment I meane not The externall gouernment hath both a substance and a matter about vvhich it is occupied and also a forme to atteyne the same consisting in certaine offices and functions and in the names and titles of them the substance and matter of gouernment must in deede be takē out of the vvord of God and cōsisteth in these pointes that the vvorde be trulie taught the sacramentes rightlie administred vertue furthered vice repressed and the Church kept in quietnes and order The offices in the Church vvhereby this gouernment is vvrought be not namely and particularelie expressed in the scriptures but in some pointes left to the discretion and libertie of the Church to be disposed according to the state of tymes places persons as I haue further declared in my Ansvvere and Defense follovving Of the secōd principle I haue also spoken at large there so that I shall not neede to trouble the Reader any further in these matters The proofes that T. C. vseth in this his Replie are grounded onlie vpō vntrue allegations and interpretations of the scriptures vaine and childishe reasons falsifying the authorities of Doctors other vvriters vntrulie ascribing that vnto them vvhich they vvrote not as shall be euidētlie declared in this Defense by the grace of God and surelie I haue not redde many bookes vvherein so many grosse vntruthes are to be found or vvherein there is so manye manifest argumentes vttered to proue the ignoraunce of the author and lacke of reading auncient and learned vvryters Touching his manner of vvriting I shal not neede to say much for any mā of iudgemēt that readeth his book may easilie perceiue vvith vvhat hautines of mynde vvhat contempt disdayne of others in vvhat sclaundrous and opprobrious manner it is vvritten hovve oft doth he repeate M. Doctor in contēpt either of the degree or of the person 370. times is the leaste vvhat other speaches of disdaine and reproche doth he vtter but I do nothing at all maruayle at it for I consider it hath bene the vsuall practise of sectaries and disquieters of Aug. lib. 1. contra Donatist the Church It is true that S. Augustine sayeth lib. 1. contra Donatist cap. 11. Nulli schismata facerent si fraterno odio non excaecarentur None would make schismes if they were not blinded with hatred of their brethren And againe An non est in schismate odium fraternum quis hoc dixerit cum origo pertinacia schismatis nulla sit alia nisi odium fraternum Is there not hatred of brethren in schismes who would saye so seeing that the beginning and continuaunce of schisme proceedeth from no other cause than from hatred of our brethren I must therefore saye vvith M. Zuinglius Scio quibus conuitijs quantis furoribus illorum Lib. de Baptis hic me exponam I knowe to what reproches and to howe greate rages of theirs I make my self subiect And I vvill conclude vvith him Quamuis miris conuitijs nos perstringere Eodem nouis quotidie clamoribus morderenō des a ̄t c. Although they maruelouselie slaūder vs and daylye with newe clamors reuile and backbite vs yet will I neuer leaue of the defense of the truth before their contumacie be made knowne to all men VVho so peruseth such learned authors as had greate experience of the lyke kynde of men he shall finde that their especiall grace both in speaking and vvriting hath bene in bitter inuectiues against other vvhom they haue enuyed and hated for some speciall causes M. Zuinglius in an Epistle that he vvriteth before his book de Baptismo speaking of the Anabaptistes sayeth thus Hyp critica illorum humilitas illis fatis nota perspecta est qui cum his aliquando sermones contulerunt quà m scilicet sit illorum oratio omni felle amarulentior Their hypocriticall humilitie is verie well knowne to those which haue had cōference with them how that their talk is more bitter than gaule And in his booke de Baptismo he earnestlie protesteth that he neuer found any thing in them quà m saturninam quandam melan holicam ingeniorum contumaciam c. and in his book against Baltasar he sayth that by dispraysing and reuyling others they seeke to wynne credite vnto them selues How this qualitie agreeth vvith some of our men and especiallie vvith the author of this Replie I am content that other men iudge If I my selfe haue in vvryting and in this Defense spoken something more sharpelie it must be imputed to myne infirmitie and yet am I therevnto greatelie prouoked but herein as in manye other matters I submit my selfe to the iudgement of those that haue authoritie to iudge and of those that be learned for I am content still to make this the foote of my song Errare possum haereticus esse nolo To those that be in authoritie I onlie speake as M. Zuinglius did to the magistrates in his time vpon the like occasion Quòd si hoc cuiuis hominū impunè facere licebit In Ecclesiast vt quae priuato suae rationis consilio adinuenit in vulgus spergat inconsulta imò resistente etiam vniuersa totius ecclesiae authoritate breui plus errorum quà m fidelium Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere If it be lawful for euery man to publish abroade among the people those thinges which he hath deuised of his owne heade before he hath consulted with the church nay against the authoritie of the whole church in short time we shall see moe errors in the church than there be faithfull men and Christians And againe Si enim boc permittamus vt capitosus quisque Lib. de Baptis malè feriatus bomo mox vt nouum aliquid insolens animo suo concepit c. If we suffer euery hedie and braynelesse fellowe so sone as he hath cōceyued any new thing in his mynd to publish
determination of the church ought not lightly to be altered 89 ¶ Churching of women 534. c. The cause of the womans absence from the church after hir dehuerance 535 ¶ Circumstances necessarie are commaunded 512 ¶ Circumcision a sacrament 618 Circumcision in priuate houses 515 ¶ Cypriā chooseth without consent of the people 205 Cyprian of the office of an Archbishop 354. c. 367. c. Cyprian a Metropolitane 356. 438. 470. ¶ Ciuil offices in Ministers 749. c. Ciuill offices in our Ministers tend to the gouernment of the church pag. 75 Ciuill authoritie not claimed but committed to our Bishops 752 Some Ciuill offices rather helpes than hinderances to Bishops 753 Augustine iudgeth ciuill causes pag. 772. Ciuil iurisdiction that the Pope claimeth not like to that in vse in this church 759. 778 A greater ciuill iurisdiction sought for in disprouing the lesse 760 Ciuil iurisdictiō in vse in this church is in some respect ecclesiasticall pag. 766. 771 Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall offices met in one 767. 771. Ciuil offices in ministers not against the word of God 773. The practise of the Church for ciuil offices in ministers 773. Ciuill businesse incident to Byshops by the iudgemente of the holye Ghost 772. 774. ¶ Clement 319. c. Clements Epistle read in the church pag. 719. ¶ Collect vpon Trinitie Sunday 491 Collect of the 12. Sunday after Trinitie Sunday 491. ¶ Coemiteria 250. ¶ Commaundementes of diuerse kindes 103. All the commaundementes of God and of the Apostles are not nedefull for our saluation 103. ¶ Cōmunitie in the Apostles times pag. 162. ¶ Comelinesse externall is alterable 98. The iudgement of comelinesse resteth not in priuate men 87. ¶ Communion Booke 474. c. Communion in priuate places 5 4. 525. Communion ministred to the sicke pag. 527. c Of the number of Communicantes pag. 528. c. Basill would haue 12. at the least to communicate 530. Of compelling men to communicate 531. 532. 605. Men not meete to cōmunicate may be admitted to the hearing of the word and prayer 533. The Apostles began the communion wyth the Lordes prayer 588. 602. Matters touching the Communion pag. 588. c. Examination of Communicantes pag. 591. c. Two things worthie to be noted of Communicantes 592. Examination of communicants not disallowed 593. Communion bread 593. c. Alexander appoynted vnleauened breed 594. Bucers opinion of Communion bread 594. Caluines opinion of Communion bread 594. Christ vsed vnleauened bread 595. The kinde of bread indifferent 595. Communion at mariages 724. Of shutting mē from the Communion 603. Men persisting in wickednesse are not to be compelled to the communion 605. Halfe communion 737. The makers of the Communion booke praised 711. ¶ Companions of Paule chosen by consent and why 163. ¶ Comparisons vnequall 710. ¶ Conferēce a cause of better know ledge 176. Conference offered to the Replyer hath bene by him refused 354. 7. ¶ Confirmation 725. c 785. 786. Abuse of confirmation in the Popishe Church 786. Confirmation of old time like ours pag. 786. Confirmation at the length allowed 794. The ende of confirmation 794. ¶ Confusion follovveth the doctrin of the Admonitors 3. 559. 746. ¶ Conscientia mille testes 503. ¶ Consuls and their authoritie 396. ¶ Constantine made Ecclesiasticall lawes 698 ¶ Contention defended 34. 377. Contentiō a hinderance to the profession of diuinitie 141. VVho be contentious 13. 14. ¶ Contraries may be defined wyth one difference 124 Some delighte to be contrarie to tymes 283. Men of contrarie iudgement ioy ne against the truth 51. Howe contraries muste be cured by contraries 476. ¶ Conuenticles 41. ¶ Corruption 485 Corruption in the Churche in the Apostles time 349. ¶ Councels summoned by princes page 436 Varietie about the time of the coūcell of Nice 330. The meaning of the. 6. Can. of the councell of Nice Controuersie about the number of Canons of the councell of Nyce page 334. The seconde councell of Nyce alleaged by the Replyer 247. A corrupt councell of Vrbane alleaged by the Replyer 23. A corrupt councell of Hispall alleaged by the Replyer 442. ¶ Courtes of Byshops 679. c. Court of faculties 561. Ecclesiasticall courtes executed in the Princes name 680. ¶ Crossing in Baptisme 614. c. Difference betwixt the papists crossing and ours 616. Crossing no Sacrament 617. ¶ Curates allowed 245. ¶ Cursed things consecrated to god page 284. D. ¶ Damasus alleaged to a wrong pur pose 248. Damasus added Gloria patri 489. ¶ Dayes obseruing of dayes 546. 547. 549. 〈◊〉 kindes of obseruing of Dayes 546 ¶ Deacons chosen by consent and vvhy 164 Of ministring preaching by Deacons 582. c Philip a Deacon baptised 582. 515 Deacons helpe in the ministration pag. 585 The Deaconship a step vnto the ministery 587 Deacons baptised 588. c. More pertayneth too the office of a Deacon than prouision for the poore 687. c. Some parte of the Deacons office not necessary vnder a Christian Prince 689. 690 VVhether Deacons were in euerye congregation 689 VVhy the Apostles left the Deaconship 758 ¶ Deanes 347. 746 ¶ Decrees pertayning too order not onely humane 107 ¶ Degrees of honour in the ministerie 458 Degrees in Diuinitie condemned 780. 781. Degrees in the Vniuersitie condemned 782 To take away Degrees is barbarousnesse 420 To be deliuered from euill what it signifieth 498 ¶ Demetrius bishop of Alexandria and Egypt 470 ¶ Defyling the nature of thinges is not in mans power 285 How farre the precepte in Deuteromie is extended 117 ¶ Digressions frō the matter to the persons 24. 235. 351. 370. 512. ¶ Dic Ecclesiae interpreted 636. 663 ¶ Dionisius Areopagita Archbishop of Athens 470. 324 Dionysius Ariopagite vsed of maister Ievvell agaynst Harding 608 Dionysius Alexandr Bishop of Alexandria and Pentapolis 470 Dionysius Corinthius b 719 Dionysius Corinth his epistles read in the Church 719 Dionysius deuided parishes 249. 250. ¶ Dioscorus Archbishop 338. 471. ¶ Discipline necessarie 559 Matters concerning Discipline 660 VVherein Discipline consisteth 661 The execution of Discipline not gyuen equally to all 313 ¶ Distinction quoad ministerium quoad ordinem iustified 390 Disobedience in ciuill matters is disobedience to God 282 Dissention domesticall the fo erunner of Destruction 705 ¶ Doctors of law left out of the Admonition and way 783 ¶ Doctrine framed to mens persons pag. 148 All pointes of Doctrine pure in this Church 129 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 interpreted 461 ¶ Dominion hath diuerse significations 63 Some kind of temporall Dominion denied to ministers 64 A minister maye exercise temporall Dominion 64. 65 ¶ Donatists and their properties 50. 622. ¶ A doubtfull saying 255 ¶ Drun kardes in the visible church pag. 177 E ¶ Easter obserued of the Apostles pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ King Edwardes priestes left 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ Elections act 1. act 6. agree 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not 〈◊〉 in the Apostles time 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not generall in
the priests was diminished whiche should haue sufficed for to prepare the sacrifices and therefore they desired the help of the Leuites that al things might be done more diligently there was also another cause of the Leuites helpe for the sanctifying of the temple and the preparation of the sacrifice was so suddainly commaunded that many of the priestes had not time to sanctifye themselues according to the lawe which required a certaine space for the same and the Leuites might be sanctified with lesse adoo and in shorter time And surely euen the very circumstances of the place dothe proue this to be the true vnderstanding of it For these be the words that immediatly go before But the priests were too few and were not able to fleay all the burnt offrings therfore their brethren the Leuites did help them vntil they had ended the worke and vntill other priests were sanctifyed 2. Chro. 29. 34 ▪ Your second assertion that is that the people were yet more earnest and more willing than eyther the Leuites or the priests I thinke is grounded vpon the. 15. verse of the. 30. Chapter which is this Afterward they slew the passouer the foureteene day of the second moneth and the priests and Leuites were ashamed and sanctifyed them selues and broughte the burnt offerings into the house of the Lord. Truly I sée not how you can collect any 2. Chro. 30. 15. such thing out of these words I know that some do gather such a note of that place But I do not vnderstand the reason of it Howsoeuer it be and howsoeuer you abuse the scriptures to iustify your selues I doubt not but that a greate number of those whome you contemme and séeke to deface do presently and will to their liues ende shewe that zeale of religion that diligence in their calling that vprightnesse in conuersation which becommeth them and whiche they are well assured pleaseth God neyther do I in so saying condemne the godly zeale of any but I admonish all to take héede of a preposterous and affectionated zeale such as is spoken of in the. 30. Page of the second edition of my answer to the Admonition The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 9. And I humbly craue and most ernestly desire of those whiche bare the cheefe titles in the ecclesiasticall functions that as we do in part correct our negligence by the example of the forwardnesse and redinesse of the people so they would suffer themselues to be put in remembrance of their ducties by vs which are vnderneath them and that they would not neglect this golden gift of gods grace in admonishing them by cause the Lorde doth offer it in a treane or earthen vessell but that they would first consider that as Naaman the Syrian prince receiued great commoditie by following the aduice of his mayd and after of his man And Abigael being a wise woman singular profite by obeying the counsell of hir seruant so they may receiue of tentimes profitable aduertisement by those which are in lower places than they themselues be Then let them thinke that as Naaman was neuerthelesse noble for obeying the voice of his seruaunts nor Abigaell neuerthelesse wise bycause she listned vnto the words of hir man so it cannot deminish their true honoure nor empaire the credite of their godly and vncounterfaite wisedome if they giue care vnto that which is spoken by their inferiours Io. Whitgifte This humilitie appeareth to be counterfaite by the opprobrious speaches and great contempt that you shew towards them in the rest of this booke What diligence you are prouoked vnto by the forwardnesse and redinesse of the people I know not but euery man may sée you are ready to shake off your calling vpon euery light occasion Neither will you preach in those places where the Gospell hath not bin so well planted but there only you loyter where there is lesse nede and where you easily may make sturres and moue contention as experience sufficiently teacheth I know none no not of the best that refuseth to heare either you or any other modestly admonishing neither haue you any cause hereof to complaine but your stomackes are such and your arrogancie so great that you passingly abuse your selues toward those whome indéede you ought to reuerence and with all duty obey I maruell that you will confesse yourselfe to be vnderneath them seing you so cry out against superioritie in the clergie and claime such interest in equalitie but I may not stand in answering words The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 10. And last of all that as if they had not listned vnto those simple persons the one had perished in his leprosie the other had bin slayne with hir familie * This is glorious talke builded vpon a false ground euen so if they shall for any worldly respect of honoure riches or feare of being accounted either vnaduised in taking this course or light or inconstant in forsaking it stop their cares against this louing admonition of the Lord they prouoke his anger not against their health or against their life but against their owne soules by exercising of vnlawfull authoritie and by taking vnto them partly such things as belong by no meanes vnto the Church and partly which are common vnto them with the whole Churche or else with other the ministers and gouernours of the same whereof I beseeche them humbly to take the better heede for that the iudgement of the Lord will be vpon a great part of them by so much the heauier by how much they haue not only beleeued the Gospell but also haue receiued this grace of god that they should suffer for it So that if they will neither take example of diuers their superiours the nobles of this realme nor be admonished by vs of the lower sorte wherein we hope better of them yet they woulde remember their former tunes and correct themselues by themselues and seing they haue bin content for the Gospels sake to quit the necessarie things of this life they wold not thinke much for the discipline which is no small part of the Gospell hauing both things necessary and commodious to part from that which is not only in them superfluous and hath nothing but a vaine ostentation which wil vanish as the shadow but also is hurtfull vnto them and pernicious vnto the Church which thing I do more largely and plainly lay foorth in this Booke Io. Whitgifte Surely if they do for any suche respects refuse any admonition giuen vnto them for the auoyding of such things as be vnlawfull and as they vniustly retaine then no doubt they are worthy of great reprehension but if your Admonition be not louing but spitefull not brotherly but vnchristian nay no Admonition in déede but a very scolding and vncharitable rayling if the thinges you would haue them forsake bée bothe lawfull and conueniente for them to vse and contrariwise the things that you moue them vnto tend to confusion and ouerthrow of the Gospell and of
no such weight then can you not excuse eyther your selfe or them In déed the Papists haue no iust matter of reioycing for they disagrée both in me also in far greater matters thā these be euen in y e chiefest points of their religion but this is no sufficient excuse for vs we may not disagrée in truth bicause they disagrée in error Neither ought the weak to be offended bicause such cōtentions haue bin vsual in the Church as I haue also shewed in myne Epistle dedicatorie to the Churche of England But yet wo be vnto those by whome suche offences come T. C. And it is to be remembred that these controuersies for the most part are not betwene many For sundry of those things which are cōprehended in the answer to the Admonition haue as I am persuaded few fauorers of those especially which are of any stayed or soūder iudgement in y e scriptures and haue sene or red of the gouernment and order of other Churches so that in deed the father of that answere excepted we haue this controuersie oftentimes rather with the Papistes than with those whiche professe the Gospell as we doe Io. Whitgifte Certainly I do not willingly defend any thing against the word of God or of mine own priuate persuasion but I haue either sufficient warrant of the worde of God or some godly lerned zelous authors iudgement for the same If I haue done otherwise I trust I shal heare of it in this booke but I am fully persuaded that all men of stayed and sound iudgement ioyne with me in these matters such especially as haue had the beste experience of the order and gouernment of other reformed Churches for proofe whereof I referre you to the wisest godlyest and best learned among the clergie in this lande T. C. And where as last of all it is sayde that this precedeth of enuie of singularitie and of popularitie although these be no sufficient reasons agaynst the truth of the cause whiche is neither enuious singular nor popular and although they be such as might be seuerally by greate likelyhodes probabilities refuted yet bicause the knowledge of these things pertaineth only to God which is the searcher of the heart raynes and for auoyding of to much tediousnesse we will reste in his iudgement tary for the day wherin the secretes of hearts shal be made manifest And yet all men doe see how vniustly we be accused of singularitie * Notable vntruths as wil fal out in triall which propound nothing that the Scriptures doe not teache the writers both olde and newe for the moste parte affirme the examples of the Primitiue Churches and of those which are at these dayes confirme Io. Whitgifte Whether if procéede of enuie or no lette the manner bothe of their and your writings declare Popularitie you can not auoyde séeing you séeke so greate an equalitie committe so many thyngs to the voyces of the people and in sundrye places so greately magnifye and extoll them than the whyche thrée what can bée more popular Singularitie and the properties therof It is Singularitie to deuyde youre selfe from that Churche whyche bothe professe the woorde of God truely and is not to bée touched in any poynte of doctrine necessarie to saluation It is true that a godly learned writer sayth Charitie Musc. in 〈◊〉 Mat. knittes together and reconcileth singularitie cutteth in peeces and diuideth it is the beginning and roote of all heresie to hate contemne the cōmunion of the church And a little after There be some contentious persons whom no church can please always hauing some thing to blame in other but nothing in themselues which is a manifest signe of singularitie But bicause the mindes and affections of men are certainly knowne only to God the determinate iudgement hereof I also referre vnto him As for this bolde assertion that you propeund nothing that the scriptures doe not teach c. howe true it is must hereafter by examination appeare The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 13. All these accusations as wel against the cause as the fauourers therof albeit they be many and diuers yet are they no other thā which haue bin long sithens in the Prophets apostles our sauior Christs now of late in our times obiected against the truth the professors therof And therefore as y e sunne of the truth then appered brake through al those clouds which rose against it to stop the light of it so no doubt this cause being of the same nature will haue the same effect And as all those sclanders could not bring the truth in disgrace with those y t loued it so the children of y e truth through these vntrue reports wil neither leaue the loue of this cause which they haue alredy cōceiued nor yet ceasse to enquire diligently to iudge indifferētly of those surmises which are put vp aagaynst it Io. Whitgifte These be but words of course which men of any sect though not truly wil apply vnto thēselues if they be otherwise delt with than they can wel beare The truth certainly can not be kept vnder by any meanes and yet sometime error ouershadoweth the truth euen as the cloudes do the Sunn My hope also is that men will not be caried away with slaunderous reportes ▪ for if they shoulde then musre you néedes preuayle but with sounde reasons and the truth of the cause The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 14. Moreouer seing that we haue once ouercōmed al these lets climed ouer them when they wer cast in our way to hinder vs from cōming frō the grosse darknesse of Poperie vnto y e glorious light of the Gospel there is no cause why now they shuld stay our course to further perfection cōsidering that neither the stile is higher now thā it was before being the very selfe same obiections in all this time we ought so to haue grown in knowledge of the truth that in stead of being then able to leape ouer a hedge we should now haue our feete so prepared by the Gospell that they shoulde be as the feete of a hynde able to surmount euen a wall if neede were Io. Whitgifte There is but one truth that is certain whē we haue obteined if we must therin remain constant without altering whosoeuer shal ouerleap or ouerrun this wall must of necessitie procure vnto himself great danger and therfore according to the olde prouerbe Looke before thou leape We must grow in faith knowledge always be growing going forward but it doth not therfore follow y t we must dayly inuent new opinions or broach new dectrines alter in iudgement we must grow in strength of faith we must increace in practise and loue of vertue we must studie to encrease our knowledge that we may be the more confirmed in the truthe that we haue learned out of the worde of God This is an euill collection we must grow in the knowledge of
greately suspected the slaunderous reportes of the backbiter and of the vnlearned tongue the one bicause he loueth to speake euill and heare euill of all those that be not in all pointes inclinable to his fansie whereof I haue greate experience being my selfe most vniustly sclaundered by that viperous kind of men the other bicause they be not able to iudge of controuersies according to learning and knowledge and therefore are ruled by affection and carried headlong with blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous opinions Lastly bycause I know sundry in all respects worthy men much more able to deale in such matters than I am But when I considered my duty towards God to his Church and to our most gracious Lady and soueraigne Elizabeth hir Maiestie by whose ministerie God hath giuen his Gospell free passage vnto vs the first stop and hindrance was answered For I thought that that dutie ought not to be omitted for any such cause seeing God and not man shall be my iudge and also that not he which defendeth the truth and confu eth errours but he that impugneth the truth and spreddeth sects is the authoure of contention Likewise when I remembred that it was no newe thing to haue contentions sects and schismes in the Church of Christ especially whē it enioyeth externall peace and that we had manifest examples there of from tyme to tyme fyrste in Peter and Paule ad Gal. 2. Paule and Barnabas Acto 15. then in the Churche of the Corinthians 1. Cor. 1. 3. Afterwardes betwixte the orientall Churche and occidentall Churche touching Easter and suche like matters Betwixte the Bishops of Aphrica and the Byshoppes of Italie for rebaptising of Heretikes and sundry tymes yea vsually in the externall peace of the Churche as may be more at large seene in Eusebius lib. 4. eccl histo cap. 6. libr. 5. cap. 24. 25. 26. li. 8. c. Likewise in Ruffinus lib. 1. ca. 1. In Zozom lib. 6. cap. 4. In Basilius Magnus ep 61. ad fratres episcopos in occidente ep 69. in sundry other auncient and learned histories and writers For the second point I was satisfyed For I thought that that coulde be no slaunder to thys Churche which by the malice of Sathan hath ben practised in all Churches euen since the ascention of Christe Thirdly when I perceiued that these men against whom I now write did agree with the aduersaries in defacing the state of Religion the order of Common prayers the Ministerie the Sacramentes the kinde of Gouernment c. vsed and allowed in this Realme of Englande and that in as opprobrious and spitefull maner as the aduersaries doo lykewise that they seeke to ouerthrowe the selfe same pillers of this Church with the aduersaries although not by the selfe same meanes I thoughte that the confutation and ouerthrowe of the one should be the confutation and ouerthrow of the other and therfore the aduersaries to haue small cause in deede of reioycing Agaynst backbyters slaunderers and vnlearned toungs I shall by Gods grace arme my self with pacience for their talke is no sufficient cause for a man to abstaine from doing his dutie To conclude I although the vnworthyest and vnmeetest of a great number was bold to take vpon me this enterprise partely to shewe that the booke called the Admonition is not such but that it may easily be answered and especially to satisfie myne owne conseience for I considered that if no man had taken vpon him the enuie of the cōmon sort in with standing the enterprises and proceedings of the Anabaptistes when they began in Germanie Anabaptisme had ouerrunne those Churches and vtterly destroyed them These were the reasons that satisfied the former obiections and especially moued me to take vpon me this labour wherwith if I can also satisfie others I haue my desire if not yet haue I done my duetie and satisfied myne owne conscience And forasmuche as the matter toucheth the state of the whole Churche of Englande I thought it moste meete to dedicate this my booke rather vnto the same generally than to any one particular member thereof protesting that if I haue affirmed any thing therein that by learnyng good reasons may be proued erroneous I will reforme the same for I wholly submitte it to the rule of Gods worde and the iudgement of those that be learned discrete and wyse The Lorde blesse thee O deare spouse of Christe with the continuance of his Gospell of the Queenes Maiestie and of godlie peace and quietnesse Amen An answere to the whole Epistle to the Church T. C. WHat causes either pulled you forwarde or thruste you backwarde to write or not to write and how in this dispute with your selfe in the end you were resolued to write in this sorte I leaue it vnto the iudgement of the Lorde who only knoweth the secrets of the hart and wil in his good time vnseale them But if there be any place of coniecture the hatred of cōtention which you set downe as the first and principal cause that beate you backe from writing might wel haue bin put as the last and least or rather none at all For if peace had bin so precious vnto you as you pretend you woulde not haue brought so many hard wordes bitter reproches e mylike speaches as it were sticks and coales to double and treble the heate of contention If the sharpnesse of the Admonition misliked you and you thinke that they outreached in some vehemencie of words how could you more effectually haue confuted that than to haue in a quiet and I de spirit set them in the way which in your opinion had left it Now in words condemning it and approuing it in your deedes I will not say that you do not so muche mislike this sharpnesse as you are A charitable figure sory that you are preuented and are not the first in it But this I may well say vnto you whiche he said Quid verba audiam cum facta videam what should I heare words whē I see the dedes In the fourthe reason whereby you were discouraged to write if by backbiters and vnlearned tonges viperous kind of men not able to iudge of controuersies caried away with affections and blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous ▪ opinions you meane al those that thinke not as you do in these matters I answer for my selfe and for as many as I knowe of them that they are they which first desire so it be truly to heare and speake all good of you But if that bee not through your perseuerance in the maintenance of the corruptions of this Church which you should help to purge then the same are they that desire that both the euill whiche you haue done and that which you haue yet in your hart to do may be knowne to the lesse discredite of the truthe and sinceritie which you with such might and maine do striue against Touching our (a) A manifest
euery one of your surmises contayned in thys treatise whiche you entitle an exhortation c. And if I lyked to make a long booke of little matter as you doe I woulde thus gather your argumentes out of euery braunche whyche you ascribe as common vnto vs with the Anabaptistes as you make adoe vpon euery place whiche is quoted by the Admonition to the Parliament But answere I pray you in good faythe are you of that iudgemente that the ciuill Magistrate should ordayne ministers (1) No but that may be the true church of Christ wherein there is no excommunication the contrarie whereof the Anabaptist affyrme Or that there should be no excommunication as it was and is vsed in certayne the Heluetian Churches If you be your controuersie is not so muche wyth vs as wyth the Bishops whiche bothe call ministers and excommunicate If you be not why is that Anabaptisticall in vs whiche is Christian and Catholike in you And why do you go about to bring vs in hatred for those things which you do no more allowe than those whō you thus endeuour to discredite we do not say that there is no lawfull or no ordinarie calling in Englande for we do not denie but that he maye be lawfully called which is not ordinarily as M. Luther Melancthon Zuinglius Decolampadius And there be (2) By what a tho e presume those parishes so 〈◊〉 places in England where the ministers be called by their parishes in such sort (3) What scriptures or where ▪ will you not quote one ▪ as the examples of the scripture doe shewe to haue been done before the eldership gouernment of the Church be established I knowe not any that sayth that the Gospell is not truely preached in Englande and by those also that are not of the same iudgement that the Admonition to the Parliament is of But if it be sayde that it is not generally of cuery one of them and in all poynts or not so often or not there where their duetie byndeth them and they are called vnto or not so sincerely or without mixture as it ought to be then there is nothing sayde but that which we feare may be too easely proued It it be sayde of some that in certayne there are founde some of those things that were reprehended in the Phariseis what is that to proue that they be Anabaptistes that speake of it Your selfe in one place of your booke call the authors of the Admonition and their fauourers Phariseis who doe all things to be seene of menne and therefore they sighe and holde downe their heades c. And this you speake agaynst them that preache the Gospell Therefore by your reason you giue sentence of Anabaptisine agaynst your selfe You promised you woulde not write one worde whereof you had not your author for it First you haue (4) This is vntrue peruerted the meanyng of the Anabaptistes in that wherein they acculed the godly Ministers that they were not according to that which is written in the thirde of the. 1. Epist. to Timothe and all bycause you woulde multiply the number of your likelyhoodes For they charged the Ministers by that place of dissolutdnesse and losenesse of lyfe and corruption of manners and we allcadge it to proue that they should be able to teache and instructe agaynst the dumbe Ministerie that is abroade But that which followeth vttereth not onely great (5) Is it be not o what maye be 〈◊〉 of you ▪ vntruth and falsification of the author but sheweth a minde desirous to slaunder and sorie as it seemeth that those which you so greuously discredite are no lyker the Anabaptistes than they be I wyll set downe the wordes as they are written in the. 102. leafe that it may appeare howe faythfully you haue dealte Libere enim dicunt concionatores qui sripendium accipiunt non esse veros Deiministros neque posse docere ueritatem sed esse uentris ministros qui o iose accipiant ingentia stipendia ex illis rebus quae simulachris immolatae fuerunt ex diuitijs splendide luxuriose uiuant cum tamen Christus dixit gratis accepistis gratis date prohibuit duas tunicas peram pecuniam habere preterea Paulum aiunt manibus suis laborasse mandasse reliquis ut idem faciant itaque concludunt nulla debere stipendia habere sui officii sed laborare gratis ministrare quia hoc non faciunt non posse ipsos ueritatem docere They say What other thing is assirmed in the seconde articles freely speaking of the Anabaptistes that the preachers which take stipendes can not be the true ministers of God nor teach the truthe but are ministers of the bellie which to liue idlely take gret stipendes of those things which were offered to images and do of their riches liue gorgeously and riotousely when notwithstanding Christ sayde ye haue receyued freely giue freely and forbad thē to haue two coates or a scrippe or money Besydes that they say that Paule laboured with his owne handes and gaue commaundement to the rest of the Ministers that they shoulde doe so and therefore they conclude that they should haue no stipende for their office but labour and minister for nought and bicause they do not so they cannot teach the truthe Nowe let all men iudge whether it be one thing to say that they ought not to haue stipendes that labour not or to saye as the Anabaptistes sayde that it was not lawfull to haue any stipende or to say they could not teach truely bicause they had great liuings or bicause they had any liuings at all Although I neuer read nor heard any of those that you meane say that those which had great stipendes and liuings could not preach truely It may be that diuers haue sayd that it were meete the ministers should be content with competent stipendes and that the ouerplus of that might go to the supplie of the wants of other ministers liuings and to the maintenaunce of the poóre or of the vniuersitie and that that excesse is the cause of diuers disorders in those persons that haue it but that they could not preach truely when they preached which had great liuings I for my parte neuer hearde it I thinke you would not be exempted from reprehension of that wherein you faulte and therefore I knowe not what you meane by these words that they dyd not those things themselues which thei taught others we professe no such perfectiō in our liues but that we are oftentimes behind a great deale-in doing of that which is taught to be our dueties to doe and therefore thinke it necessarie that we should be reprehended and shewed our faultes Whereas you say that the Anabaptistes accused the ministers for giuing to much to the Magistrates I haue shewed what we giue and if it be to little shewe vs and we will amende our fault I assure you it greeueth me and I am euen in
and meaning whiche I giue of them Truely if you shoulde thus goe aboute to make them good in so dooing you shoulde doe your cause no greate good But here you haue wholly omitted the. 15. of Mathewe and the. 16. of Luke The one whereof though it be corrected yet it is in a maner as farre from the purpose as it was before as it maye ap eare in the Additions and alterations c. at the ende of the fyrste booke Your woordes of pleasure whyche folowe bycause they bée but woordes I wholly omitte them as I will also doe in many other places where I shall fynde nothyng else least I make this Booke longer than is conuenient ¶ Whether Christ forbiddeth rule and superioritie vnto the Ministers Tractat. 1. The true interpretation of the twentith of Mathew c Reges gentium c. Chap. 1. The fyrst Diuision Ansvvereto the Admonition Pag. 13. Sect. 3. TO proue that they whose authoritie is forbidden by Christe wil Scripture ested haue their stroke without their fellowe seruauntes c. is quoted The tru exposition of the 20. of Math. c. Math. 20. Math. 23. Marke 10. Luke 22. In the. 20. Math. it is thus written Yeknovve that the Lordes of the Gentiles haue domination ouer them c. In the. 23. of Mathew Be ye not called Rabbi for one is your doctour or teacher to vvit Christe The places in Marke and Luke be al one with that in the 20. of Mathew The conclusion that is gathered of these places is very darke and generali they shoulde haue declared who they be that haue this authoritie forbidden and what the authoritie is Touching these places aileaged in the. 20. of Mathew 10. of Marke 22. of Luke Musculus and dyuers other learned men thinke that they extend not onely to the Apostles and menne of the Clergie as wee call them but to all Christians of what state so euer they be And it is the common opiuion of al wryters that these woordes of Christ doe not condemne superioritie Lordeshippe or any suche lyke authoritie but the ambitious desyre of the same and the tyrannicall vsage thereof T. C. Page 10. Sect. 2. 3. To come therfore vnto the matter out of the places of the. 20. of Mathewe and the. 22. of Luke where our Sauiour Christe vppon occasion of the mordinate request of the sonnes of zebede putteth a difference betweene * This is is a note of your owne deuising the ciuill and ecclesiasticall function he placeth the distinction of them in two poyntes whereof the one is in theyr office the other is in theyr names and titles The distinction of the office he noteth in these wordes the kyngs of the Gentiles haue dominion ouer them and the Princes exercise authoritie ouer them but it shall not be so with you Wherevpon the argument may be thus gathered that wherin the Ciuill magistrate is seuered from the Ecclesiasticall officer dothe not agree to one minister ouer an other But the (a) Petitio principij ciuil magistrate is seuered from the Ecclesiastical officer by bearing (b) aequiuoeatio dominion Therfore bearyng dominion doth not agrec to one minister ouer an other Page II Sect. 1. 2. Touching their names and titles he putteth a difference in these wordes And they are called Gratious Lordes but it shall not be so vvith you And so the argument may be framed as before that forasmuche as they are seuered in titles and that to the Ciuill minister doth agree the title of gracious Lordes therefore to the Ecclesiasticall minister the same dothe not agree For as it is fitte that they whose offices carrie an outewarde maiestie and pompe shoulde haue names agreeable to their magnificence so is it meete that those that God hathe remoued from that pompe and outwarde shewe shoulde lykewyse bee remoued from suche swellyng and loftye titles as doe not agree with the simplicitie of the ministerie whiche they exercise And whereas it myghte seeme somewhat vniust that he that hath the greater giftes shoulde not be preferred to those whiche haue lesse our sauiour Christe sheweth that the matter is farre otherwyse For by how muche euery man dothe excell his fellowe in the gifts of the holye Ghost by so muche more he ought to employe himselfe to the benefyte of others so that in a maner he shoulde become as it were theyr seruaunt to doo them good whiche although it be in parte common to the ciuill magistrate with the minister of the worde yet he dothe neuer lette downe hymself so lowe nor giueth his seruice eyther to the Churche or common wealth but that he dothe and ought in that seruice to retayne that dignitie and countenaunce with the markes and notes therof whiche his Princely estate dothe require In the ende he propoundeth hymselfe for example in whome he setteth before theyr eyes a perfecte paterne of the ministe For seeyng he beeyng Lorde tooke vpon hym to be a seruant and beyng Emperour and kyng of heauen and earth was content to want all the glorie shewe of the worlde his ministerie so requiryng it shoulde be great shame for them whiche were his disciples chosen out for the ministerie not to content themselues but to aspire vnto suche offices and dignities as they dreamed of Io. Whitgifte You saye that Christ in that place putteth a difference betweene the Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall functions and that in two poyntes in theyr office and in their names and titles the distinction of the office you saye he noteth in these wordes The Kings of the Gentiles c. of their names and titles these And they are called gratious Lordes c. Wherevpon you conclude as though all were cocke sure But I pray you tell me whervpon do you gather that Christ maketh any such distinction here eyther of offices or titles In déede he woulde haue a difference bothe betwixte the authoritie of his Disciples and other Christians and the dominion of Heathenishe Princes and also betwixt theyr affections in desiryng the same and therefore dothe he expressely saye The kings of the Gentiles c. If he had ment any suche distinction of offices or titles as you woulde make vs beléeue he would haue sayde The Kings and Princes of the Iewes c. or rather Kings and Princes without any Gouernment not forbidden of Christ but the kinde of gouernment further addition but séeing that he sayth the Kings and Princes of the Gentiles it is manyfest that he forbiddeth not onely to his Disciples but to all Christians such tyrannicall kynd of gouernment as the Gentiles vsed and that ambitious desyre and affection of the same whiche ruled in them For Chryste vseth to call backe those that bée his from errours and corrupt affections by the example of the Gentiles as he doth in the. 6. of Mathew from too much carefulnesse for meate drink such lyke Nam omnia ista gentes exquirunt For after all these things do the
Sacraments administred in priuate families so that they be done according to the order of the Churche and not in the contempt of common and publike assemblies And I thinke that suche noble men and gentlemen as vpon oceasion either of infirmitie of body or of distance of place or some other vrgēt cause haue the word of God preached in their priuate families and the Sacraments ministred according to the order of the Churche are greatly to be commended Neyther doth this open any window to secrete and schismaticall conuenticles suche I meane as seeke corners bycause they wil not kéep the orders lawes of the Church but contemne the same and conspire in some new and erroneous opinions In the which number those be whome I haue truly charged with conuenticles for they despising the order of the Churche haue wickedly separated themselues from the same whose opinions notwithstanding you mainteine although you would séeme to condemne their conuenticles But it may be that you coumpt this time to be a time of persecution and so excuse their doings To be short when I speake either of priuate preaching or of priuate ministring the sacraments I meane it especially in respecte of the place and not in the respect of any schismaticall separation so that hitherto you haue said nothing that impugneth any thing that I haue written Neyther haue I spoken any otherwise in all these things than other learned and godly men haue done as it is to be séene by all theyr seuerall authorities which I haue in their places set downe Chapter 1. the. 9. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 22. Sect. 2. I pray you what ment Saint Paule in 1. Co. 14. after he had prescribed certaine orders vnto them to be obserued in the Church thus generally to conclude Omnia decenter ordine fiant Let all things be done decently and in order Doth he not there giue vnto them authoritie to make orders in the Church so that al things be done in order and decently The best interpreters doe vnderstande this as a generall rule giuen vnto the Churche to examine hir traditions and constitutions by And therefore without all doubt their iudgement is that the Church hath authoritie in externall things to make orders and appoint lawes not expressed in the worde of God so that this rule of the Apostle be obserued Io. Whitgifte Here haue you not answered one word to that which I haue alleadged out of the The ground of the assertion vnanswered by T. C. 1. Cor. 14. for the i stifying of my generall assertion in this point nor to the interpretation of it that therefore being graunted the rest must néedes stande in full force that is that the scripture hathe lefte many thinges to the discretion of the Church The opinion of auncient fathers and Councelles of things indifferent Chap. 2. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 22 Sect. 3. 4. NOw if either godly councels or auncient fathers were any thing Auncient fathers of thīgs indifferent at all regarded of these men as they be not suche is their arrogancie this controuersie might soone be decided For the most auncient fathers and best learned as Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Cyprian and other do expressely declare that euen from the Apostles time the Church hath always had authoritie in such matters and hathe obserued diuers orders and ceremonies not once mentioned in the word of God T. C. Page 16. Sect. 3. Page 17. Sect. 1. 2. Here are broughte in Iustin Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian and Councells as (a) Wilfull ignorance for you know very well that euery one of them greatly fauoureth this cause dumbe persons in the stage only to make a shew and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersie there is no doubt but M. Doctor would haue made them speake For when he placeth the greatest strēgth of his cause in antiquitie he would not haue passed by Iustin Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian being so auncient and taken Augustine which was a great time after them And if the godly councels could haue helped here it is small wisedome to take Augustine and leaue them For I thinke he might haue learned that amongst the authorities of men the credite of many be better than of one and that this is a generall rule that as the iudgement of some notable personage is looked vnto in a matter that is debated more than theirs of the common sort so the iudgement of a counsell where many learned men be gathered togither carieth more likelihoode of truth with it than the iudgement of one man although it be but a prouinciall counsell much more than if it be generall therfore you do your cause greate iniurie if you could alleadge them and do not This is once to bee obserued of the reader throughout your whole booke that you haue well prouided that you should not be taken in the trip for misaledging the scriptures for that vnlesse it be in (b) Moe scriptures than you and something better applyed one or two points we heare continually in stead of Esay and Ierenty S. Paule and S. Peter and the rest of the And as we say in our tonge ettles amōg roses Prophets and Apostles S. Augustine and S. Ambrose 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dionisius Areopagita Clement c. And therefore I cannot tell with what face we can call the Papistes from their antiquitie councels and fathers to the triall of the scriptures which in the controuersies which rise amongst ourselues flie so far from them that it wanteth not much that they are not banished of your part from the deciding of all these controuersies And if this be a sufficient proofe of things to say (c) A better proofe than to say I say so as you commonly vse to do such a doctor said so suche a councell decreede so there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne nothing so false but I can make true And well assured I am that by their meanes the principall groundes of our faythe maye be shaken And therefore bycause you haue (d) Petitio principij no proofein the word of God we comfort ourselues assured that for so much as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Byshops and of other things whiche are in question be not in heauen that they will fall and come to the grounde from whence they were taken Now it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earth and that they are of men and not of God Io. Whitgifte Here are many words which might well haue bin spared but that you are desirous Sect. 1. to haue your modest speaches knowne to the world In the. 25. page I haue told you where some of these dumbe persons speake their partes but you are blinde when you should sée and deafe when you should heare that which you
so that that reason may shewe what Aaron thought of it and this what was the opinion of the people I would haue you to deale sincerely in alleaging of the scriptures You put me ouer to the treatises of godly newe wryters which doe refuse this distinction c. But you neither name those wryters vnto me nor let me vnderstande where to finde those treatises whiche maketh me suspecte that you neyther knowe whose nor where they be but the matter is not greate I doe as muche mislike that distinction of the Papistes and the intent of it as any man dothe neyther doe I goe aboute to excuse them from wycked and without repentance and Gods singular mercy damnable Idolatrie But yet doe I saye the Idolatrie bothe of the Iewes and of the Gentiles for the causes by me alleaged to be muche greater For there Three kindes of Idolatrie Martyr in Iud. 2. Musculus in Lo. com in expla 1. praecept are thrée kyndes of Idolatrie One is when the true God is worshipped by other meanes and wayes than he hathe prescribed or woulde be worshipped The other is when the true God is worshipped togither wyth false Gods 2. Regum 17. The thirde is when we worship false Gods eyther in harte and mynde or in externall creatures liuing or dead and altogither forget the worshippe of the true God All these thrée kindes are detestable but the first is the least and the laste is the worste in the whiche kinde the Israelites sundrie tymes offended as is manifest in the places before mentioned The Papistes worship God otherwyse than his will is and otherwise than he hathe prescribed almoste in all poyntes of their worship they also giue to the creature that whiche is due to the Creator and sinne agaynst the first table yet are they not for ought that I can see or learne in the thirde kinde of Idolatrie and therfore if they repent vnfaynedly they are not to be caste either out of the Churche or out of the ministerie The Papistes haue little cause to thanke me or to fée me for any thing that I haue spoken in their behalfe as yet you sée that I place them among wicked and damnable Idolaters My defense is of those that haue bin Papistes and be not and for no other for them I speake my conscience according to my poore knowledge take it as you please Of Ministers learning of Catechismes Chap. 3. Admonition The thirde Then (p) 1. Tim. 4. II they taught others nowe they muste be instructed themselues and therfore like yong children they (q) Ministers of London 〈◊〉 ioyned to learne M. Novvels C techisme muste learne Catechismes Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 40. Sect. 3. 4. 5. Pag ▪ 41 ▪ Sect. 1. 2. God be thanked there is a great number of Ministers that can teach others and may be your scholemasters in al kinde of learning except you haue more than you vtter in these treatises If they that finde some want of learning in themselues or that be crepte into the ministerie vnlearned either of their owne accord or by commaundement of their Ordinarie reade and learne godly and learned Catechismes they are to be commended and so is he that prouoketh them therevnto That Catechisme whiche you in derision quote in the margent is a booke fit for you to learne also and I knowe no man so well learned but it may become him to read and learne that learned and necessarie booke But some arrogant spirites there be that thinke them selues of all men best learned and disdayne to learne of any That place of the fourth chapter of the first to Timothie doth not forbid a man to learne He that is a good and modest preacher will not disdayne as well to be taught as to teache T. C. Pag. 28. Sect. 2. 3. What shoulde become of the people in the meane season whilest they learne their Catechisme and when they haue learned it they are no more fit to be Ministers and to teache other than he that hath learned his Accidence is meete to set vp a schole And it can not be defended but it was a grosse ouersighte to enioyne ministers to learne a Catechisme It were muche to compell them to reade it And if a man would haue dec amed agaynst the ignorance of the moste parte of the ministers three whole dayes togither he coulde not haue sayde more agaynst them than that Canon which sendeth them to their A. B. C. and principles of their religion Howe knowe you that they quote the Catechisme in the margent in derision is there any sillable or letter that soundeth that wayes if you coniecture it because they haue set it in the margent you may as well say that they likewise quote the scriptures in derision beeing also placed there * It followeth euen as the rest of your argu ments do for it is your own and no mans else But howe followeth this It is meete that ministers shoulde learne euery day therefore it is meete they be enioyned to learne Catechismes it is meete they shoulde reade Catechismes therefore meete to learne them and be enioyned to learne them Is there nothing worthier the learning and profession of the Minister than to learne Catechismes or dothe a man learne those thinges alwayes which he readeth dothe he not reade things sometime to recorde the things that he hathe learned For bicause they say it is not meete that ministers should be enioyned to learne a Catechisme you conclude of their wordes that they woulde not haue a minister to learne or to reade any thing whiche is as farre from their meaning or wordes eyther as you are from the reasonable and vpright expounding of them Io. Whitgifte God be thanked the people néede not pyne awaye for lacke of foode they haue the Scriptures read vnto them they haue also profitable and fruitef ll Homilies they haue the Sacramentes rightly ministred and publyke prayers in a knowne tongue and sometyme God sendeth vnto them some well disposed preacher further to instructe them and the Curate is not so slothefull and carelesse but that he will also communicate with them that whiche he himselfe hathe by diligent reading learned Catechismes and that especially doe conteyne the groundes of religion and the principall poyntes of faythe and good lyfe and therefore not vnfitte or vnprofitable for any man to reade I know not what weightier matters they can learne than those that be conteyned in that booke excepte you thinke nothing waightie but suche matters as you nowe contende for and for the which you so muche disturbe the peace of the Churche It is well done to enioyne them to learne it and it shall be no disgracing no not to your selfe to reade it We doe not denie but that there be vnlearned Ministers in Englande and we thinke it no discredite at all to enioyne them to learne suche thinges as are moste profitable bothe for them to knowe and to teache vnto other To reade and
a Pastor when there is any place void Afterward he is sent to the Senate from the which if he be doubted of he is sent agayne to the ministers to be examined and then if they find him meete he is confirmed of the Senate whiche standeth of some number of the people and by the moste parte of their voyces By these things it appeareth that this election of the Minister by the people is lawfull and Apost like and confe sed also by him that those that are otherwise bring with them subiection vnto the Church and seruitude and carya note and marke of corruption of Religion Laste of all that he go h about to defende the election vsed in the Churches where he was Minister by thys that it approched vnto the election in the primitiue Churche Nowe what cause there may be that we should bring the Churche into bondage or take awaye the order whereby bothe the Minister maye be better assured of hys calling and the people maye the willyngiyer submitte them selues vnto theyr pastors and gouernours or what cause to departe from the Apostolyke forme of the choyse of the Pastor beyng lawfull I confesse I knowe not and woulde be gladde to learne To assigne the cause hereof vnto the Christian Magistrate and to saye that these things can not be hadde vnder hym as you vnder Maister Musculus name doe affyrme is o doe greate iniurie vnto the office of the Magistrate whyche abridgeth not the libertie of the Churche but defendeth it diminisheth not the Pastor his assurance of his calling but rather encreaseth it by establishyng the ordinarie callyngs onely whiche in the time of perse ution some tymes are not so ordinarie withdraweth not the obedience of the people from the Pastor bu vrgeth it where it is not and constrayneth it where it is not voluntarie And seeyng that also (*) Musculu 〈◊〉 ning 〈◊〉 Musculus sayth that these forced elections are remedyes for corruption of Religion and disordered states what greater dishonour can there be done vnto the holy institution of God in the ciuill gouernour than to saye that these forced elections wythout the consent of the people muste be where there is a Christian Magistrate as thoughe there coulde be no pure Religion vnder him when as in deede it maye be easily vnder hym pure whiche can hardly and with greate daunger be pure withoute hym And when as it is sayde that the Churches consente shoulde be hadde in the election of the Minister (a) Here you ar one 〈◊〉 from your Apostolica forme we doe not denie the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill Magistrate and the disanulling of them if the Churche in choosing and the Ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man so that yet he doe not take away the libertie from the Church of choosing a more conuenient man So that you see that by Musculus your witnesse reasons thys enforced election withoute the consente of the people is but corrupte and so oughte not to be in the Churche And that although it hath bene borne withall yet it must be spoken against and the lawfull forme of election laboured for of all those that loue the truth and the sinceritie therof Io. Whitgifte Turpe est doctori c. you haue before tolde vs what Iustinian sayth (a) Pag. 36. Sect. 2. in codice Also T. C. tripped in that wher he findeth fau with other of (b) Page 37. Sect. 3. an Epistle sent from the councell of Nice vnto the Churche of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention of the councell of (c) Page 37. Sect. 5. Carthage of (d) Ibidē sect ▪ 6 Toletane councell and afterwarde you tell vs what (e) Pag. 4 Sect. 2. Augustine (*) Pag. 72. Sect. 3. Gratiā say and wil that (f) Pag. 71. Sect. 6. the centuries should be seene c. yet you neither tell vs in what part of Iustinians Code in what booke of Chap. of Theodoret in what coūcel of Cartharge or of Toledo in what tome of Augustine or part of Gratiā in what centurie or booke of centuries which all require much more tyme to search out than this of Musculus especially your law which for any thing that I can perceiue asketh so long a searche in codice Iustiniani that I thinke it will neuer be founde there But it is no great marueile for you reporte them as the Author doth of whom you borowe them without any further searche or tryall But to put you out of doubt this place of Musculus is titulo de Magistratibus Musculus in déede confesseth that in the Apostles tyme ministers were choosen by the people and ordeyned and confirmed by the elders And after that he hath shewed this manner of election to haue béene vsed t Cyprians tyme he addeth and sayth Ad hunc itaque Tit. de ve b ▪ ministris modum eligebantur c. After thys manner in tymes paste were Ministers Byshoppes and Deacons elected the whyche forme also of electing Churches reteyned vnto the tyme of Christian Princes and Magistrates whose consent was required in the election of Byshoppes and that worthily for it is not meete that those things whiche are to be done publikely and concerne the people whiche be their subiectes and perteine vnto them in respect of Religion except we wil say with the Anabap. that Christians ought not to be Magistrates shoulde be done without their consent After this he declareth how the Bishop of Rome in the end spoyled the Magistrate and the people also of this libertie and when he hath spoken against the abuses of the Romane Church in that matter he maketh an obiection of such Churches as professe the Gospell saying but some peraduenture wi l obiect that those Churches whyche in our time will seme to haue reformed Religion receiue their ministers of the Magistrate not by any election of the people to this obiection he sayth that he is compelled to answere for their sakes who though they faithfully labour in the word of the Lord yet do they doubte whether their vocatiō be lawfull or no bicause they were not elected ordeined according to the Apostolicall forme And hauing confessed those points y t you here set downe he maketh this resolutiō Verū si consideres diuersū ecclesiae statū c. If thou shalt consider the diuers state of the Church thou must confesse that that which in it self is Apostolicall lawful vsuall conuenient for the libertie of the Churches primis quidē ecclesiae tēporibus prodesse potuisse nostris vero non ita might wel profit the Church in the beginning but not so in our time For thē there was not such a multitude of Christiās but that the minister without tumult might by cōmon consent be chosen which thing at this day were very hard to be done Moreouer thē the mindes of the faithfull were not so generally infected with cōmon errors nor so blinded
out If authorite woulde doe any good in thys behalfe as it seemeth it ought seeing that all your proofe throughout the whole booke is in the authorities of men whiche Aristotle calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vncunning proofes I coulde send you to M. Caluine which teacheth that it is not to be thought that S. Paul woulde permit to Titus to ordeiue Byshops ministers by his owne authoritie when he himselfe would not take so much vpon hym but ioyned his with the voyces of the Church But he peraduenture sauoureth not your ast and yet you would make men beleeue sometimes that you make muche of him if you can get but one worde (a) An vntrue accusation vnioynted and racked in peeces from the rest to make good your part If he weigh not with you you haue M. Musculus whome you take to be a great patron of yours in this cause Musculus in his com pla in his title of the election of ministers which doth with greater vehemencie affirme the same thing that M. Caluine sayth asking whether any man can beleeue that Paule permitted in this place to Titus or in the place before alleaged to Timothie that they should ordeine of their owne authoritie by themselues when as Paul would not doe it but by the voyces and election of the Church Io. Whitgifte The Admonition in the sixt article colorably but in the. 7. plainely affirmeth that Bishops may admit ministers the right of ordering ministers doth at no hande apperteine to the Bishop this doe I improue in this place and proue that the right of ordering electing Ministers doth apperteine to the Bishop but I haue contented my selfe with the fewer proofes bicause theyr assertion is so absurde that it can not but discredite their learnyng with all learned men And what so euer T. C. hath hetherto sayd manifestly declareth it to be vntrue yet now it is his pleasure to glosse vpon my words and to say that I woulde proue this election of Ministers by one man to haue bin in the Apostles time c. Whereas in déede my words be plaine and my meaning is to proue that the electing and ordering of ministers doth apperteine to Bishops I do not say only to Bishops When you say that the election of the Pastor doth apperteine to the people doe you meane that it only perteineth to the people But bicause you thinke y t to be so great a matter to say that in the Apostles tyme the election of Ministers was by one man seing that I haue sayd before that this election by the Church was in the Apostles time and after I will say now more than I sayd before that they be both true that is that in the Diuers kinds of ordeining electing ministers in the Apostles time Apostles time there was diuerse maners of ordeining electing Ministers For some time one alone did choose and ordeine sometimes many sometimes Ministers onely and sometime the people also as it may euidently be gathered both by that which is spoken before and by this also that I doe say in this place Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesiastes sayth thus VVe reade in olde time of three kindes of elections some Zuinglius were chosen by the common and generall consent of all the faithfull gathered together in one place Other some were elected and sent by the Apostles onely Other some we maye finde whom one onely Apostle did choose and send as Titus whome Paule lefte at Creta committing vnto him the care of that Church The like sayth M. Bullinger Lib. 3. aduersus Bullinger Anabap. cap. 4. there is another calling of those whiche are also called of God but by men which choose sende according to gods ordinance as when Peter sent Marke and Paul both called and sent Timothie Titus Luke Thus you sée that it is counted no straūge matter to haue diuers kinds of calling electing ministers euen in the Apostles time And therfore in saying now that Bishops haue authoritie to admit ministers I saye nothing contrary to any thing that I haue saide before neither yet if I affirme that Timothie and Titus had this authoritie to themselues alone The election of the Minister by the Church is fittest for the time of persecution but that doth not seclude from the same time election and calling by one man neyther is this the question whether choosing by the common consent of the people or calling sending by one man be meetest for y e time of persecution but whether election made by the multitude is fitter for the time of persecution and when there is no christian Magistrate than for the tyme of prosperitie and vnder a Christian Magistrate and therefore you doe but incumber the Reader wyth false suppositions Elections by the multitude or by one onely maye be vsed in the tyme of persecution and at other times also as shall be most expedient for the Church Where doe I saye that it is Paules commaundemente that the Byshop shoulde onely T. C. peruerteth the sayinge of the Answerer choose the Minister vndoubtedly this is no true or diuine dealing wyllingly and wittingly to peruert a mans saying neither can it come of a good conscience and you haue faulted in it very oft I proue by that which S. Paule said to Timothie 1. Ti 5. Lay thy handes rashely on none that a Bishop hath authoritie to admitte 1. Tim. 5. Ministers bycause Timothie to whom these words were spoken was a Bishop and learned interpreters do say that Saint Paule by these words did admonishe Timothie that he ought to be circumspect in appointing of ministers Therfore this is not Paules commaundemente that a Bishop onely should ordeine ministers but this he giueth in charge to all Bishops in the name of Timothie that they lay their handes rashely on none whereby also he plainely signifieth that the ordering and electing of Ministers doth apperteine vnto them which is denied by the Admonitiō Here is then nothing throwne downe that was before builded but you cast snow balles at y e windowes of the building which may for a tyme darken them till your snowe be melte away with the Sunne Touching your direct answere as you call it to the place 1. Tim. 5. thus I briefely replie that it is but deuised of your owne head not grounded vpon any good authoritie nor consonant to the circumstance of the place or course of the Epistle Both Ambrose and Chrisostome and other learned writers as I haue sayd doe vnderstand it to be ment of the authoritie that Timothie had in ordering Bishops and ministers The whole Epistle and the circumstance of this place doe plainely testifie that thys was spoken to Timothie onely in the respect that he was a Bishop The preceptes that be conteined in this Epistle the most of them and in this Chapter especially are suche as properly perteyne to Timothie in the respecte that he was a Byshop and
seuenth bookes of Eusebius where (b) An vntruth for there no such thing to be found in these bookes of ▪ usebius both the formes of the elections in those times are described and where besides that the customes of the peoples choyse is set foorth there are examples of the election of the people and Cleargie which were confirmed by the (c) This is vntrue for Eusebi ▪ us maketh not mention of confirmation of Elections by any Christian magistrate nor of any Byshop of Constantinople ▪ Christian magistrate namely in the Byshop of Constantinople And these may suffice for the other that haue not that commoditie of bookes nor habilitie nor skill to reade them being in a straunge tongue to know that besides the institution of God in his worde this manner of electing did continue so long as there was any sight of the knowledge of God in the Churche of God Io. Whitgifte Illiricus his treatise that you speake of doth nothing preiudice the cause that I haue in hand touching the authorities there alleadged for the question is not whether it hath bin so or no but whether it be conuenient and profitable for the Church to haue it so now The reasons that Illiricus vseth beside his authorities are of no great force to proue either necessitie or conueniencie of such elections in this Church as the state is now You do well to confesse the help that you had by Illiricus for it could not haue bin The reply of T. C. consisteth of other mens collections vnespyed séeing you haue almost verbatìm drawen all the authorities and reasons that you vse in this cause out of him And truly I maruell with what face you can so opprobriously obiect vnto me other mens collections and lacke of reading the ancient writers when as it is euident that your whole booke consisteth of other mens notes and collections and that you your selfe haue scarce read any one of the Authours that you haue alledged 18. authorities at the least you haue borrowed of Illiricus in this cause besides certayne other reasons You referre the reader to the. 6. 7. booke of Eusebius where you say both the formes of elections in those tunes are described and the customes of the peoples choise set foorth and diuers examples of the elections of the people and Cleargie c. But the reader shoulde haue bene something beholding to you if you had named the Chapters as well as you haue done the bookes Howebeit you do very politikely to referre youre readers to the whole bookes which you are sure the most of them cannot and of those that can many will T. C. sendeth his reader to Eusebius for that which he shall not find in him Euse. lib. 6. cap. 10. not peruse but you haue not dealt faithfully for it is not to be founde in any parte of these two bookes where the customes of the peoples choyse is set foorthe or any example of the people and Cleargies election confirmed by the Christian Magistrate Nor yet any example of any Byshop of Constantinople The contrary rather may be collected in sundrye places In the sixte Booke Eusebius declareth that in the absence of Narcissus bycause it was not knowne where he was The gouernoures of the Churches adioyning ordeyne another Byshop And after Narcissus retourne bycause he was aged the story saith dictum Alexandrum alterius paroeciae c. That the ordinance of God called the said Alexander being Byshop of another parish to vndertake that charge with Narcissus according to a vision which was in the night reuealed vnto him And in y e next chapter he sheweth how that those of Hierusalem receyued the said Byshop courteously and would not suffer him to retourne to the place where he was Byshop before they being admonished by a vision in the night which signifyed vnto them that they should go out of the citie gates and receiue their Bishop appoynted vnto them by God which thing they also did by the consent vicinorum Episcoporum of the Byshops adioyning What for me or manner of electing can you gather of this place except you will admitte visions and call them from one Byshopricke to another to helpe some that is growen in age Neyther is here any mention made of the electiō of the people for this that he saith Hierosolomitani went out c. it may rather be vnderstanded of the ministers and deacons of Hierusalem than of the people In the. 7. booke cap. 30. it appeareth that the ministers and Pastors had then authorite to choose Byshops Only in the. 6. booke ther is one example that may séeme something to make for your purpose vntill it be well considered It is of one Fabianus who was chosen Byshop of Rome as it is there reported in this manner cum fratres omnes Lib. 6. cap. 29. ad ordinandum futurum Episcopum in ecclesia congregati essent c. The reporte goeth when as all the brethren were assembled togyther in the Church to choose him which should be Byshop and many of them determined of diuers worthy and notable men Fabianus hymselfe being present with the rest and no man minding to choose him that a doue falling from aboue like as the holy ghost discended vpon our sauioure in likenesse of a doue did lighte vpon his head and so the whole people being with one spirite much moued did togyther with great ioy and with one consent proclayme him woorthy to be Byshop and immediatly tooke him and placed him in the Byshops seate Héere we may learne that Fabianus was miraculously chosen to his Bishopricke and that the people moued with this miracle did burst out into commendation of him and thought him worthy to be Bishop dothe it therefore follow that they elected him for it may be doubted whether those brethren that came togyther to ordeyne the Byshop were of the Cleargy or of the people It is not denied but at this time the people did sometimes and in some places gyue their consents in the electing of their Byshop yet doth not this example proue it béeing as it may appeare extraordinarie neither is there in these two bookes any forme of such elections described nor any customes of the peoples choice set foorth much lesse any examples of the elections of the people and cleargie which were confirmed by the Christian Magistrate as you affirme And surely I maruell what you meane to speake of any suche confirmation by the Christian magistrate séeing it is manifest that as yet there was no Christian Magistrate mentioned by Eusebius except only one Philip Emperoure of Rome of whome he speaketh very little and maketh no mention of any elections made in his time so farre off is he from expressing examples of any confirmation of such electiōs by any christiā magistrate Namely you say in the Byshop of Cōstātinople A grosse oueright of T. C. yet ther is no such example in either of those bookes no not so
other generally to all ministers Oflicences to preache Chap. 3. Admonition And if any be o well disposed to preache in their owne charges they may not withoute my Lordes licence Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 53. Sect. 1. 2. 3. YOu here finde fault that if a preacher be disposed to preache in Not to preac without li ▪ cence his cure he may not do it without my Lordes licence Where the word of God is professed Christian magistrates gouern there it is mete that no man should take vpon him any function except he be by the Magistrate to whom it doth appertein thervnto admitted And forasmuch as there be always in the church hypocrites heretikes schismatikes other euil disposed persons whiche study for nothing more than to disquiet the state of the church to occupie the people with their factions it is necessarie that none should be admitted to preache in any place without he be thervnto licenced by the Bishop who ought to haue a diligent care in that matter I suppose you are not of that mynd that men maye nowe in this Church vnder Christian magistrates preach without licence it hath always bin the opinion of wise learned godlie men that since the Apostles tyme none wer ordinarily called to the office of preaching but such as were called of God by man only Anabaptists and some other secte of heretikes teache the contrarie T. C. Pag. 51. Sect. 8. 9. Pag. 52. Sect. 2. What dealing is this to bring mē in suspition of y t which they neuer thought of as though there were any word y t founded to this y e a man should put himself into the office of preaching without the approbation of those (*) A doubtful saying men to whom it doth perteyne Their complaint is that those which are ordeyned Pastors and therfore to preach can not do it without further licence as if a man shoulde be charged to doe a thing forthwith and then he that chargeth him bindeth him hand foote that he can not do it vnlesse he will lose him The bishops inhable him to teach point him a place to teach in yet they wil not let him teath ▪ vnlesse he haue a further licence It h be an heretik or schismatike or suspected of any such thing ▪ why is he admitted or being admitted why is he suffred to be so much as a reader n y ◠churche nd bicause you could not answer this therfore you set vp a fansie of yours to confute And thus you fight without an 〈◊〉 and you make triumphes where there is no victorie They wil say vnto you y t not only vnder a godly magistrate but not in y e time of persecution any man ought to ake vpon him any function in y e church ▪ vnlesse he be ther vnto called by mē except he haue a wonderful calling which is rare must be iligently examined by them which haue it 〈◊〉 nder pretence of the spirite of God whom they make author of their calling it fall out y e 〈◊〉 be but their own he long affection that hath thrust thē in so far they are from the frensy of Anaba tists which you by a confutation of y e which they neuer affirmed would seeme to staine them with Io. Whitgifte This Repl e cōsisteth partly of equiuocations partly of 〈◊〉 suppositiōs For where you say y e no mā shuld put himself into the office of preaching w tout the approbation of those men to whō it doth apertein you speak ambiguously therfore you must explicate what you mean by those to whō it doth apertein whether y e people seniors as you cal them or y e bishops or y e ciuil Magistrate or such to whō y e ciuil Magistrat doth cōmit y e iudging of such matters For y e Auabaptistes confesse y e they must be called of their churches but they deny y e authoritie of the ciuil magistrat herein the authoritie of such also as he doth 〈◊〉 for y t end purpose Again you here suppose y t no man may preach out of his owne cure therfore being once admitted o preach there he nedeth no further licence ▪ Likewise you 〈◊〉 suppose that none may be admitted to preache except he haue 〈◊〉 to be hort that 〈◊〉 ▪ heretikes schismatikes may be known foorthwith 〈◊〉 being suspected by and by remoued out of the ministerie ▪ all which suppositio s bēe vntiue and therfore this Replis full of greate absuraities Their meaning is playne that though there be iuste cause why the Bishoppe should inhibite them from preachyng bothe for theyr contentions and also for their errours yet woulde they preache whether the Byshoppe wyll or no for the case is theyr owne They were admytted to preache in theyr cures and elsewhere so long as they vsed them selues modestlye quietly and taught sounde doctrine but after they began to deuide the Churche and make contention in it they were restrayned from preachyng vntill suche tyme as vpon their submission and reformation they shoulde be there vnto admitted agayne hinc illae lachrymae this is the matter and hereto you answere ne gry quidem Of the apparell of Ministers Tract 7. The causes why they refuse the apparell examined Chap. 1. the fyrst Diuision T. C. Page 52. Sect. 3. The cappe the surplis and tippet are not the greatest matters we striue for whych notwithstandyng hath bene enformed to the Churches beyonde sea to the ende that the iudgementes of some myghte be the easlyer had agaynst vs. Howbeit we thinke it an attyre vnmeete for a minister of the Gospell to weare and the Surplis especially more than the other two bycause suche hurtefull Ceremonies are so muche more daungerous as they doe approche nearer the seruice ▪ or worship of God Io. Whitgifte Yet in the beginning suche was youre pretence neyther was there any thing else that you contended for as it is well knowne to all men that had to deale with you or hearde of you I am certainly perswaded that if the Churches beyonde sea did fully vnderstande your procéeding together with the state of thys Churche of Englande that they woulde as bitterly write againste you and as willingly condemne you as euer they dyd the Anabaptistes But to your reasons agaynste the apparell Chap. 1. the second Diuision T. C. Pag. 52. Sect. 4. The causes why wee are lothe to meddle with them are not as many are borne in hande * This assertion is contrary to your practise Monumentes of idolatrie may be vsed if they haue any profite bycause that we thinke any pollution so to sticke to the things themselues as that the wearyng of them had any suche power to pollute and make vncleane the vsers of them Neyther yet only bicause the Papistes haue superstitiously vsed them but bycause they hauing bene abhominably avnsed by them haue no vse nor profyte in those thinges or endes wherein and wherevnto they are nowe vsed And further that
is well that you seeme to iustifye the gray Amyse bycause the Bishops haue disalowed of it in theyr Synode Truly this is your conscience and religion to be always ad oppositum to disalow that which law authoritie alloweth and allow that which they disalow The nexte waye as I thinke to driue you vnto conformitie in apparell were to make a streight law that no man should weare such kind of apparell bycause you loue to be contrary to lawes and good orders T. C. Page 57. Sect 3. 4. 5. Now I will desire the reader to turne vnto the. 237. 238. 239. 240. 242. pages to see whether at this third voyage master Doctor bringeth any better marchandise Where first he surmiseth an vntruth as though the Admonition misliked of the taking away of the gray Amis where it saith only that there was lesse cause to take that away than the surplis c. Wherein there is nothing but the truth sayd for bycause that was vsed in fewe churches and but of fewe also in those few churches Therefore if there were cause to take away that there was greater to take away the surplis And to take away the Amis out of the Church and leaue the surplis c. is to heale a scratch and leaue a wound vnhealed Now whereas you say that we are always Ad appositum and that if the lawe commaunded straightly that we should weare none of this apparel that then we would weare if it should be answered againe that you do (*) I 〈◊〉 as few times as you Seruire scenae that is that you are a time seruer you see we mighte speake with more likelyhoode than you But we will not take as you do the iudgemente of God out of his hands but will attend paciently the reuelation and discouering of that whiche is nowe hidde both in you and vs. And although you will graunt vs neyther learning nor conscience yet you might afford vs so much witte as that we would not willingly and of purpose want those commodities 〈◊〉 which we might otherwise enioy as well as you if we had that gift of conformitie which you haue Io. Whitgifte The wordes of the Admonition touching the gray Amise be these we maruayle that they could espie in their last synode that a gray Amis which is but a garmēt of dignitie should be a garment as they say defiled with superstitiō and yet that coapes c. Do they not say that the Amis is but a garment of dignitie c consider their words well and you shall sée that master Doctor hath said truly The gray Amis was iustly taken away bycause the vse of it is not established by any law of this realme as the vse of other vestures be and in mine opinion the Byshops deserued commendation in so doing for thereby they declared that they will not suffer any rites or ornaments to be vsed in this Church but suche only as are by publike authoritie established Experience hathe taught me that diuerse men be of that nature that they haue a Some men delight to be contrary to times delight in opposing themselues to the present estate and I sée it by proofe to be a great fault in diuers of you I haue hitherto serued as few contrary times as you haue done as for the gift of conformitie which you say I haue I thanke God for it I haue learned to conforme my selfe to the time in that sense that S. Paule hath willed me so to do Rom. 12. and to Rom. 12. Rom. 13. lawes also and magistrates as I am likewise commauuded in the. 13. Chapter of the same epistle What commodities you want that I haue I cannot coniecture your meate and drinke is prouided with lesse trouble and charges vnto you and in more delicate and deintie manner than mine is your ease and pleasure ten times more you do what you list go when you list come when you list speake when you list at your pleasure What would you haue more I know not why you should complaine except you be of the same disposition with the Franciscane Friers who when they hadde filled their bellies at other mens tables were wont to cry out and say O quanta patimur c. Some men are delited to be fed at other mens tables and preferre popular fame befor Gold and siluer The faults wherewith the Admonitors charge the Apparell ansvvered Chap. 7. the. 1. Diuision Admonition But they are as the garments of the idoll to which we should say auaunt and get the e h ▪ They are as the garments of Balaamites of Popish priests enimies to God and all christians h Esa. 30. 22. Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 237. Sect. 3. 4. Pag. 238. Sect. 1. But you say they are as the garmentes of the Idoll to the whiche we should say auant Cursed thigs consecrated to God and get thee hence they are as the garments of Balaamites of Popish priests enimies to God and all Christians Be it so so were all things in Hierico accursed and an abhomination to the Lord neither was it lawfull for the Israelites to touch any thing therof and yet was the gold and the siluer and the brasen and iron vessels caried into the treasure house of the Lord and consecrated vnto him Iosua 6. Gedeon was commaunded to take and sacrifice that Oxe of his fathers Gedeon sacrificed an oxe consecrated to Baal to God which his father had fedde and brought vp to be sacrificed to Baal yea and to burne that Oxe with the selfesame wood that was consecrated and dedicated to the Idoll Baal Iudic. 6. Our forefathers toke the temples dedicated wholly to Idolls yea to Deuils and most abhominably defiled with diuelish and abhominable seruice and turned them into holy Churches wher Christ should be worshipped T. C. Pag. 57. Sect. 6. 7. Whereas you say that the accursed things of Iericho and the Oxe that was fedde to be anctified vnto Baal and the wood consecrated vnto the Idoll were conuerted to the seruice of the liuing God when you shall proue that the surplis is so necessary to the seruice of God as gold and siluer and other mettall and as Oxen and wood whereof the first sort were such as without the which the temple could not be built the other such as were expressely commaunded of God ▪ to be vsed in his seruice then I will confesse that this place maketh something for you And (*) Here you disport your selfe with your owne imagination yet if your coapes and surplices c. should haue such a purgation by fyre as those (a) No such purgation to be found in that place metalls had or euer the Lord would admitte them into his treasure house and should be driuen to passe from Poperie vnto the gospell by the Chimney the fire would make suche wracke with them that they should neede haue better legges than your arguments to bring them into the Church Moreouer do you not
not saye that he ordeyned Bishops in euery Churche for his wordes be as I haue reported them But if he had so sayde it had not made any thing to your purpose but agaynst you For he appoynted them not all the Apostles nor the people and he gouerned and directed them as their Archbishop Chap. 2. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 1. 2. These two Anacletus and Anicetus you say are (*) I say not only suspected but that they are not without iuste cause suspected suspected why do you say suspected when as they haue bin conuinced and condemned and stande vpon the pillorie with the cause of forgerie written in great letters that he whiche runneth maye reade Some of the Papistes them selues haue suspected them but those whiche maynteyne the truthe haue condemned them as full of poperie full of blasphemie and as those in whome was the very spirite of contradiction to the Apostles and their doctrine And doe you marke what you saye when you saye that these are but suspected Thus muche you say that it is suspected or in doubte whether the whole body of Poperie and Antichristianitie were in the Apostles time or soone after or no. For Clement was in the Apostles time and their scholer ▪ and so you leaue it in doubte whether the Apostles appoynted and were the authors of poperie or no. I thinke if euer you had read the Epistles you would neuer haue cited their authorities nor haue spoken so fauourably of them as you doe Io. Whitgifte I say that they are not without iust cause suspected whiche you haue left out and therefore it appeareth that you haue layde aside sinceritie I haue alleadged them with as little credite vnto them as eyther master Caluine or any other dothe You your selfe haue sundrie times in this Replie vsed as I haue sayde as forged authors as these be with lesse defacing of them Turpe est doctori c. I can shew good proofe that I haue read their Epistles but I am not disposed eyther to boast of my own reading or to deface other mens I leaue that to you Chap. 2. the. 17. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 66. Lin. 5. Sect. 1. 2. 3. But that notable and famous Councell of Nice muste be and is of all wyse and learned men nexte vnto the scriptures themselues reuerenced esteemed and imbraced That Councell celebrated Anno Domini 330. when as the Bishops of Rome were as yet learned Concil Nice and godly men doth not onely allow of the name but also of the office of Metropolitane Archbishop Archdeacon c. In the sixte Canon of that Councell it is thus written This Metropolitane Councell dothe determine him to be no Bishop vvhich is made vvithout the consent Metropolitani Episcopi of the Metropolitane In the. 13. Canon mention is made of a Patriarche and of an Archdeacon Archedeacon diuers times and his office there in diuers poyntes declared as it is also in the seuenth Canon of the same Councel In the. 25. Canon is named bothe Patriarche and Archebishop and Patriarke declared what authoritie they had in their Prouinces and in admitting of Bishops So is it likewise in the. 26. and. 27. Canons of the same Councell T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3. You come after to the Councel of Nice wherin I wil not sticke with you that you say it was holden the. 330. yere of the Lord when it may appeare by Eusebius his computation that it was holden Anno Domini 320. Io. Whitgifte I know that there is some varietie among the writers for the time of this Councell Uar tie concerning the time of y e Nicen Councell Musculus in his common places sayth that it was celebrated Anno Domini 313 the writers of the Magd. Historie centu 4. cap. 9. affirme as they say out of Eusebius that it was Anno Dom. 320. Master Foxe Tom. 1. fol. 12 thinketh that it was Anno Dom. 340. and so dothe Illyricus him selfe in his defense of the Magd. Historie thoughe he séeme to be of a contrarie iudgement in the Historie it selfe Pantaleon in his Cronographie placeth it Anno Do. 330. Some there be that say it was 324. c. So that to differ in the yere is no suche matter as deserueth any suche nippe But if all circumstances be well considered It will fall oute that Eusebius himselfe confirmeth that which I haue set downe touching the time of that Councell For Constantine began his raigne according to Eusebius his Cronicle Anno. 311. and this is noted also Cent. 4. fol. 62. But the Nicene Councell according to the sayde Centurie fol. 617. was holden Anno. 17. Constantini So that it must néedes be by their owne collection Anno. 328. or very neare But if we admitte Eusebius Cronicle for the beginning of Constantines raigne videlicet Anno. 311. it will fall out by Eusebius himselfe vpon the time which I haue appointed for Lib. 4. de vita Constantini he sayth that the Nicene Councell was holden Anno vicesimo imperij Const. So that it must néedes be Anno. 330. or in the beginning 331. at the vttermost but vnder it cannot be Chap. 2. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3. And here you take so great a leape that it is enough to breake the Archbyshops necke to skippe at once 300. yeares without anye testimonye of anye eyther father or storie of faythe and credite which maketh once mention of an Archbyshop Io. Whitgifte This leape shall not hurt him one whit For if there were no other testimonie but Archbyshops Metropolitanes long before the Nicene Councel Concil Niceni Can. 6. that Councell it were of sufficient credite and habilitie both to saue his necke and his body from all kinde of harme For séeing it is thus written in the sixth Canon of that Councell Antiqua consuetudo seruetur per Aegyptū Libyam Pentapolim vt Alexandrinus Episcopus horum omnium habeat potestatem quia vrbis Romae Episcopo parilis mos. est c. Let the auncient custome be kepte throughout Aegipt Libia and Pentapolis that the Byshop of Alexādria haue the gouernmēt of all these for the Byshop of the citie of Rome hath the same order Lykewise in Antioche and other Prouinces let euery Churche reteine hir priuileges But this is generally plaine that if any be made Byshop without the consent of his Metropolitane the great Synod hath decreed that he ought to be no Byshop And in the seuenth Canon Quia consuetudo obtinuit antiqua traditio vt Aeliae Can. 7. Episcopus honoretur habeat honoris consequentiam salua metropolis dignitate For as muche as custome auncient tradition hath bene such that the Byshop of Ierusalem be honoured let him haue honour accordingly not impairing the dignitie of the Metropolitane citie It is plaine that Archbyshops and their office were long before the Councell of Nice for else why should the Canon say Let the olde custome
to whom God hath committed the sworde of gouernment such insolent audacitie against states and lawfull regiment is rather to be corrected with due punishment than confuted by argument T. C. Page 74. Sect. 6. 7. 8. As for Prelate of the Garter if it be a needefull office there are inowe to execute it besydes the Ministers which for as much as they be appointed to watche ouer the soules of men purchased with the bloude of Christ all men vnderstand that it is not meete that they shoulde attend vpon the bodie muche lesse vpon the legge and least of al vpon the Garter It is not vnlawfull for Princes to haue Ministers of their honor but also it is not lawfull to take those that God hath appoynted for another ende to vse to such purposes Thou seest here good reader that M. Doctor kepeth his olde wont of (*) Vntruthe manifest peruerting of the wordes and meanyng of the authors of the Admonition For whereas they saye that the name of Erle Countie Palatine Iustice of peace and Quorum Commissioner are Antichristian when they are giuen to the ministers of the Churche whose calling wil not agree with such titles he concludeth simply that they saye they be altogether vnlawfull and simply antichristian as if I should reason that it is not meete that the Queenes Maiestie should preache or minister the Sacramentes therefore it is not meete that there shoulde be any preachyng or Ministring of the Sacramentes Nowe letting passe all your hard wordes and vnbrotherly speaches with your vncharitable prognostications and colde prophesies I will come to examine whether you haue any better hap in prouing the office than you haue had in prouing the name Io. Whitgifte I sée no cause why he that is prelate of the garter maye not also sufficiently discharge his duetie in watching ouer the soule for I thinke the garter dothe not require such continuall or great attendance Those that are appointed to watche ouer y e soule are not exempted from bodily seruice to their Prince excepte you will take from the Prince not onely authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters as you haue done but ouer Ecclesiasticall persons also as by this and such other lyke assertions you séeme to doe ▪ But here of more in place I peruert not the wordes of the Admonition as appeareth by their manifest wordes what their meaning is God knoweth But how little authoritie these offices should haue if your plat forme were framed shall be declared when I come to your seigniorie neyther the names nor offices that come from a Christian Prince that detesteth Antichrist can be called Antichristian vpon whom soeuer they be bestowed Wherevnto this your example tendeth of the Quéenes Maiestie wise men may easily coniecture It smelleth of that Papisticall cauillation Scilicet that we giue to hir Maiestie authoritie to preach and to administer the sacramentes bycause we acknowledge hir lawfull authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes I pray God my prognostications be not to true the more I consider of your booke the more I am driuen to suspect it My hard speaches be within the bondes of modestie but yours may better beséeme the order you talke of then a man of your profession Chap. 2. the. 43. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 68. Sect. 1. 2. Lordes Grace Lordbishop honor c. be names of reuerence teachyng vs to acknowledge our duetie towardes our superiours and their authoritie ouer vs. And it is much more to be reprehended not to giue honor to whom honor is due then to receyue honor when it is due You maye and you please in verye auncient Histories and in Titles of dig nitie in ministers not Antichristian great learned fathers see as honorable and reuerent titles giuen vnto Byshops as these be And surely it is not Antichristian to be called by names and titles not ambitiously soughte for but orderly and lawfully giuen according to the condition and state of the place wherin a man is But it is Antichristian that is proude presumptuous disdainfull arrogant and contemptuous to refuse to giue to euery one that name and title that by law ciuilitie and duetie of vs is required and expresseth our reuerence duetie and obedience You would speake as much of names of honor and reuerence in other persons if you durste be so bolde wyth them as you thinke you may be with some Io. Whitgifte Nothing is sayde to this The offices of Archbishops c are not strange or vnheard of in Christes Church and of superioritie among the Cleargie Chap. 3. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 68. Sect. 3. 4. Pag. 69. Sect. 1. Nowe it followeth to proue that the offices signifyed by these names are not straunge and vnheard of in Christes Churche neyther yet plainly in Gods worde forbidden that they are not to be remoued but as most necessarie to be reteined It is without all doubte that both these names and offices haue Antiquitie of the offices bene in Christes Church long before Nicene Councell and that they haue had in the same continuance euen to this daye as partlye if may be gathered by that which I haue spokē before and most manifestly by all histories and learned writers from before that Councell of Nyce to this instant houre and therefore they little consydered what they writte when they set it downe that these names and offices were straunge and vnheard of in the Church of Christ. These men contemning auncient writers neuer read them that is the cause of such vnlearned assertions T. C. Pag. 75. Sect. 1. And wheras in the former treatise of the name of the Archbyshop he blew the trumpet before the victorie heere in this of the office he bloweth it before he commeth into the fielde or striketh one stroke saying that they little consider what they write that they are contemners of auncient writers and that they neuer read them and that they are vnlearned which denie these things which he affirmeth Well what we reade howe vnlearned we are is not the matter whiche we striue for the iudgemente thereof is first with God ▪ then with the Churches and in their iudgementes we are content to reste But if you be so greatly learned and we so vnlearned and smally read then the truth of oure cause shall more appeare that is maynteined with so small learnyng and reading agaynst men of such profound knowledge great reading And yet I knowe not why if we be not tooidle we should not be hable to reade as much as you which may haue leysure to reade a good long writer or euer you can ryde onely to see and salute your houses and liuings being so many and so farre distant one from an other And if we be so vnlearned and holde suche daungerous opinions of Papistrie and anabaptisme as you beare men in hand we doe why do you not by the example of the Ministers in Germanie procure a publike disputation where you may both winne
such proportion of antiquitie for your Pope to be cheefe head of the whole Churche as is to be shewed for Archbishops to be the chiefe Bishops in their owne prouinces c. Hitherto M. Nowell I marueyle that you will ioyne with the Papistes in so grosse a reason Chap. 3. the. 32. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82 Sect. 1. If you say that the Archbishop of England hath his authoritie graunted of the Prince the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas which was Emperour of al Christendome did graunt him his authoritie ouer all Churches But you will say that is a lie but the Pope will set as good a face and make as great a shew therein as you do in diuerse poyntes here But admit it to be yet I say further that it may come to passe and it hath bene that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes which haue Churches What if he then will giue that authoritie to one ouer all that one king graunteth in his lande may any man accept and take at his handes such authoritie and if it be not lawfull for him to take that authoritie tell me what fault you can finde in him which may not be founde in them Io. Whitgifte The Pope doth chalenge muche of his temporalties from Constantinus and Phocas but his supremacie and iurisdiction ouer all Churches he claymeth from Peter and from Christe wherein his clayme is more intollerable being most false and his iurisdiction more vsurped beyng wrongfully chalenged you erre therefore in that oynt greatly The Archbishop doth exercise his iurisdiction vnder the Prince and by the Princes authoritie For the Prince hauing the supreme gouernment of the realme in all causes and ouer all persons as she doth exercise the one by the Lorde Chancellor so doth she the other by the Archbishops Your supposition of one Cesar ouer all realmes that haue Churches is but supposed and therfore of no weight but admit it were true yet is there not the like reason for one Archbishop to be ouer all those Churches and ouer one prouince the reasons I haue alleaged before out of M. Caluine other neither is there any man not wilfully blinded or papistically affected that seeth not what great diuersitie there is betwixt one prouince and many kingdomes the gouernment of the one and the gouernment of the other Si vnus duodecim bominibus praefuit an propterea sequetur vnum debere Inst. cap. 8. centum millibus hominum praefici If one was ouer twelue men shall it therefore follow that one may be appoynted ouer an hundred thousand men Sayth M. Caluine Chap. 3. the. 33. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 2. It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a Bishop vnto all the whole Church neyther is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to the whole Churche of England for when those which haue bene most excellent in knowledge and wisdome and most ready and quicke in doing and dispatching matters being alwayes present haue founde ynough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation what is he which absent is able to discharge his duetie toward so many thousand churches And if you take exception that although they be absent yet they may do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Ehauncellors Officials Commissaries and such other kinde of people what do you else say than the Pope which sayeth that by his Cardinalles Archbishops and Legates and other such lyke he doth all things For with their handes he ruleth all and by their feete he is present euery where and with their eyes he seeth what is done in all places Let them take heede therefore least if they haue a common defense with the Pope that they be not also ioyned nearer with him in the cause than peraduenture they be aware of (a) Who can beleue you mean good fayth ▪ Truly it is agaynst my will that I am constrayned to make such comparisons not that I thinke there is so great diuersitie betweene the Popedome and the Archbyshopricke but bycause there being great resemblance betwene them I meane hauing regard to the bare functiōs without respecting the doctrine good or bad which they vphold that I say there being great resemblance betwene them there is yet as I am persuaded great difference betwene the persons that execute them The which good opinion conceyued of them I do most humbly beseech them by the glorie of God by the libertie of the Churche purchased by the precious bloud of our sauiour Christe and by their owne saluation that they would not deceyue by reteyning so harde such excessiue and vniust dominion ouer the Church of the liuing God Io. Whitgifte But one man may do the office of an Archbishop in one prouince euery seuerall diocesse whereof hath a Bishop And one man may do the office of a Bishop in one diocesse euery seuerall parishe whereof hath a seuerall Pastor The Archbishop hath a generall charge ouer the prouince to sée that vnitie be kept among the Bishops and that the Bishops do their duties according to the lawes and order of the Churche or else to sée them reformed according to the sayd lawes orders if they shall be cōplayned of to haue neglected the same The lyke care haue the Bishops ouer the seuerall Pastors of their diocesse and other persons Neyther doth their office consiste in preaching onely but in gouerning also in the respect whereof they are ouer aboue the rest This office of gouernment may be well executed in one prouince so much and so far as by the lawes is required and as is cōuenient for the state of the Church but it could not be so ouer all Christendome It may be that some Pastors hauing small charges and busie heades may finde and procure moe matters and controuersies than eyther they be able or willing to compound such busie Pastors there be in England but their vnquietnesse or lacke of abilitie to dispatch those controuersies which they themselues are the authors and causes of doth not proue but that eyther the Archbishop or Bishop may do those things sufficiently and well that do apperteyne to their office and calling So much may they do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Chauncellors c. as by the rules of the Churche are permitted vnto them and may be conuenient for the time and persons But the office of preaching of ordeyning ministers of suppressing heresies and schismes with such lyke they do not commit vnto them but execute them themselues the which bycause they cannot do throughout all Churches as they may in one Prouince therefore your reason is no reason Moreouer a Bishop of one diocesse or prouince may haue conference with his Archdeacons and Chauncellor and be priuie to all and singular their doings So cannot the Pope with his Cardinalles Archbyshops and Legates c. dispersed thorough out whole Christendome And therefore an Archbishop or Bishop may
them to this order the farther of they were from those tunes vntill the discouering of the sonne of perdition the further off were they from this moderation and the nearet they came to that tyrannie and ambitious power whiche oppressed and ouerlayed the Churche of God Io. Whitgifte Indéede this is one parte of the office of the Archbyshop and Byshop but not the whole no more than it was of Iames being Byshop of Ierusalem nor of him whome Iustine calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But your chéefe purpose now is to proue that this office is not perpetuall but changeable at euery action and durable only continuing that action which how soundly you haue done and with what straunge argumentes euery childe that hath discretion may iudge Chap. 3. the. 50. Diuision T. C. Page 86. Sect. 1. And therefore M. Caluine doth warely say that one amongst the Apostles indefinitely not any one singular person as Peter had the moderation and rule of the other and further shadoweth out what rule that was by the example of the (*) The Archbyshop contenteth himselfe with lesse authori ie than the Co suls had Consull of Rome whose authoritie was to gather the Senate togyther and to tel of the matters which were to be handled to gather the voices to pronounce the sentence And although the Antichrist of Rome had peruerted all good order and taken all libertie of the Churche into his handes the Cardinals Archbyshops and Byshops yet there are some colde and light footings of it in our synods which are holden with the Parliament where amongst all the ministers which are assembled out of all the whole realme by the more part of voyces one is chosen whiche shoulde go before the rest propound the causes gather the voyces and be as it were the mouth of the whole company whome they terme the prolocutor Such great force hath the truth that in the vtter ruines of Poperie it could neuer be so pulled vp by the rootes that a man could neuer know the place thereof no more or that it should not leaue such markes and prints behind it whereby it might afterwardes recouer it selfe and come agayne to the knowledge of men Io. Whitgifte It followeth in the same place of M. Caluine immediatly Sic nihil absurdi esset Instit. cap. 8. si fateremur Apostolos detulisse Petro talem primatum Sed quod inter paucos valet non protenus trahendum est ad vniuersum o bem terrarum ad quem regendum nemo vnus sufficit So shoulde it be no absurditie if we shoulde confesse that the Apostles did giue this kynde of preheminence vnto Peter But yet that whiche auayleth among fewe must not by and by be drawen to the whole worlde to the ruling whereof no one man can suffice You sée therefore that M. Caluine speaketh of one singular person euen of Peter hym selfe and yet dothe he not slide into the tents of the Papistes but teacheth rather how to beware of them and yet to acknowledge the truthe of Peter We gyue no greater authoritie eyther to Archbyshop or Byshop than the The example of T. C. against himselfe Consuls and their authoritie Consull or Pretor had among the Romanes or a Master and president in a colledge for the Consuls vppon whose authoritie you séeme so muche to stay were appoynted to gouerne the common wealth of the Romanes after they had banished theyr kynges and they were called Consuls quia plurimum reipublicae consulebant bycause they profited the common wealth very muche whose authoritie in thys dyd differ from the authoritie of a king that there mighte be appeale from them and that they could not put to deathe any citizen of Rome withoute the consente of the people but they mighte otherwise punishe them and ast them into prison They had authorite also to make frée th se that were in bondage they were of the greatest honoure si nullus esset Dictat r if there were no Dictator in the common wealth and their authoritie was offorce not onely in the Senate but else where And it is manyfest that they had not onely authoritie to call the Senate to tell those matters that were to be handled and to take their voyces but to commaunde that none shoulde depart oute of the Citie that had anye v ycè in the Senate and to electe Senators c. It appeareth that you little knewe what the offyce of a Consull was when you wrytte thys If you take aduantage of thys that the office of the Consull was annuall and not perpetuall yet it helpeth not you anything for he was moderator and ruler not of one action onely but of so manye as were by occasion eyther ordinarie or extraordinarie in the whole yeare of ys Consulshyp For my part I doe not thinke that the Archbyshop either hath or ought to haue that authoritie in his prouince that the Consull had in Rome A Master of a Colledge the which example also Master Caluine doth vse hath a Masters of Colledges and their authoritie perpetuall offyce he is chiefe gouernour of that societie and all the members thereof owe duetie and obedience vnto him as to their head he hathe authoritie to puni he and to sée lawes executed neyther doe I thynke that eyther Archbyshop or Byshop claymeth greater authoritie and iurisdiction ouer theyr Prouinces and Diocesse than is due to the Master within hys Colledge And therfore those examples of Master Caluine do confute your assertion they doe in no poynt confirme it In Synodes thoughe there be chosen a prolocutor for the inferior sorte of the Cleargie yet dothe the Archbyshop reteyne still bothe hys office place and authoritie euen as the Prince dothe or the Lorde Kéeper notwythstanding it be permitted to the lower house of Parliament to choose them a Speaker and therefore this is nothyng nor alleaged to anye purpose excepte you wyll saye that in the ciuill state all was equall and that there was no superior but in eueryaction some chosen by the multitude to gouerne the action bycause in the lower house of Parliament they choose a Speaker whose offyce continueth but duryng that Parliament You passe not what you alleage so you maye séeme to alleage something Chap. 3. the. 51. Diuision T. C. Pag. 86. Sect. 2. Nowe you see what authoritie wee allowe amongst the Ministers bothe in theyr seuerall Churches or in prouinciall Synodes or nationall or generall or what so euer other meetings shall be aduised of for the profitte and edifying of the Churche and wythall you see that a we are farre from thys tyrannie and excessiue power whyche nowe is in the Churche so we are by the grace of God as farre from confusion and disorder wherein you trauell so muche to make vs to seeme guiltie Io. Whitgifte I sée you allowe muche more authoritie in wordes that is in the examples you haue vsed than you wyll willingly acknowledge I sée also that this authoritie whyche you call
error Theodorete therefore meaneth heresie he meaneth not hypocrisie there was not one heretike in all his Bishoprike he doth not say one hypocrite or euill man so that you are farre wyde and do Theodorete double iniurie for you do both slaunder him and misconstrue him Chap. 3. the. 68. Diuision T. C. Pag. 89. Sect. 3. Nowe that it may appeare what great likelihoode there is betwene this Theodoret and our Lorde Bishops and Archbishops it is to be considered which he writeth of himselfe in the Epistle vnto Leo that is that he hauing beene 26. yeares Bishop was knowne of all those that dwelt in those partes that he had neuer house of his owne nor fielde nor halfepenn e not so much as a place to be buryed in but had willingly contented himselfe with a poore estate be yke he had a verie leene Archbishoprike and if the fatte morsels of our Bishoprikes and Archbishoprikes were taken and employed to their vses of maintenance of the poore and of the Ministers and of the Uniuersities whiche are the seede of the ministerie I thinke the heate of the disputation and contention for Archbishops and Byshops woulde be well cooled Io. Whitgifte We speak of the office and authoritie not of the liuing to the spoile of the which Comparison made in office not in riches you and most of your fautors haue more respect than you haue to the office thoughe you pretende the contrarie and yet it followeth not but that Theodorete had lyuing sufficient and might haue béene more welthie but as it séemeth he professed voluntary pouertie of purpose for he gaue away that also whiche was left vnto him of his parents as he in that Epistle testifyeth saying Sed sponte electam amplexus sum paupertatem but I imbraced pouertie which I chose willingly His Bishoprike might be of large reuenues and yet he poore séeing that he had chosen and professed pouertie But if Bishops be better nowe prouided for than they were then it is their partes to be thankefull vnto God and the Prince for it and to vse it well It is not your dutie to enuie their prosperitie bicause you are not in case your selfe Chap. 3. the. 69. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 73. Sect. vlt. But what shall I neede to vse such proofes in a matter so plaine and euident to all such as haue read any thing of antiquitie The best learned men of our dayes and diligentest preferrers of the Gospell of Christ do with one consent one or two of the latest writers excepted acknowledge and confesse that this distinction of degrees and superioritie in the gouernment of the Church is a thing most conuenient and necessarie T. C. Pag. 89. Sect. 4. Now good reader thou hearest what M. Doctor hath beene able to ake togither out of the olde fathers which he sayth are so plaine in this matter and yet can shew nothing to the purpose Heare also what he sayth out of the writers of our age all which he sayth except one or two are of hys iudgement and allow well of this distinction of degrees Io. Whitgifte Well what I haue raked togither and howe you haue carted these rakings away I commit to the iudgement of the learned These raking termes in my opinion are not séemely in him that would séeme so much to iustifie himselfe and to condemne other of immodestie Chap. 3. the. 70. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 74. Sect. 1. Caluine in his Institutions sayth on this sort that euery prouince Caluin Cap. 8. Sect. 54. had among their Bishops an Archbishop and that the Councell of Nice did appoynt Patriarches vvhich should be in order and dignitie aboue Archbishops it vvas for the preseruation of discipline Therfore for this cause especially vvere those degrees appoynted that if any thing shoulde happen in any particular Church vvhich could not there be decided it might be remoued to a prouinciall Synode If the greatnesse or difficultie of the cause required greater consultation then vvas there added Patriarches togither with the Synodes from vvhom there vvas no appeale but vnto a general Coūcel ▪ This kind of gouernment some called Hierarchiam an improper name and not vsed in the scriptures for the spirit of God vvil not haue vs to dreame of dominion and rule in the gouernment of the Church But if omitting the name vve shall consider the thing it selfe vve shall finde that these olde Byshops did not frame any other kinde of gouernment in the Church frō that vvhich the Lorde hath prescribed in his vvorde Caluine here mislyketh this name Hierarchia but he alloweth the names and authoritie of Patriarches and Archbishops and thinketh the gouernment of the Church then vsed not to differ from that which God in his worde prescribeth T. C. Pag. 89. Sect. vlt. Pag. 90. Sect. 1. 2. M. Caluine first is cyted to proue those offices of Archbishop Primate Patriarch The names whereof he cannot abyde and as for him he approueth onely that there should be some which when difficult causes arise which cannot be ended in the particular Churches might referre the matters to Synodes and prouinciall Councelles and which might do the offices whiche I haue spoken of before of gathering voyces c. But that he liketh not of those dominations and large iurisdictions or at all of the Bishops or Archbishops which we haue nowe it may appeare plainly ynough both in that place when as he will haue his wordes drawen to no other than the olde Bishops shutting out thereby the Bishops that now are as also in other places and namely vpon the Philippians where reasoning agaynst Phil. 1. this distinction betwene Pastor and Bishop and shewing that giuing the name of Bishop to one man onely in a church was the occasion why he afterwarde vsurped do ination ouer the rest he sayth after this sort In deede I graunt sayth he as the dispositions and maners of men are order cannot stande amongst the ministers of the worde vnlesse one be ouer the rest I meane saith he of euerie seuerall and singular bodie not of a whole prouince much lesse of the whole worlde Now if you will needes haue M. Caluins Archbishop you must not haue him neither ouer a Prouince nor Diocesse but onely ouer one singular and particular congregation how much better therefore were it for you to seeke some other shelter agaynst the storme than M. Caluins which will not suffer you by any meanes to couer your selfe vnder his winges but thrusteth you out alwayes as soone as you enter vpon him forceably Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine affirmeth directly that euery prouince among their Bishops had Caluine acknowledgeth the names nd the end of thē and alloweth the kinde of gouernment an Archbishop and that the Councell of Nice did a ppoynt Patriarkes he sayeth that these degrées were appoynted for the preseruation of discipline and by calling of Synodes to ende controuersies that arise in particular Churches he well lyketh this
be willing to learne that where the Apostles coulde not be presente themselues there they appoynted some other to gouerne the Churches for them as the Apostle Paule did Titus at Creta Therefore this reason of yours is sóone answered And in that that the Apostles dyd appoynt Byshoppes in Churches whyche they had planted and gaue vnto them suche authoritie it is euident that therin they made them theyr successours which they did not withoute sufficient testimonie and warrant of the spirite of God and therfore you do but talke you proue nothing Chap. 4. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 94. Lin. 9. Sect. 1. 2. The necessitie of Deanes I do not acknowledge I haue already spoken of them Touching Prebendaties I shall haue occasion to speake a worde hereafter For Earles and Dukes and suche lyke titles of honour they are ciuill neyther dothe it followe that bycause there may newe titles or newe offices be broughte into the ciuill gouernment that therefore the same maye be attempted in the Church For God hath left a greater libertie in instituting things in the common wealth than in the Churche For for so muche as there be diuers Common wealthes and dyuers formes of common wealthes and all good it falleth out that the offices and dignities whyche are good in one common wealthe are not good in an other as those whych are good in a Monarchie are not good in Aristocratie and those whiche are good in Aristocratie are not good in a popular state But that can not be sayde of the Churche whyche is but one and vniforme and hathe the same lawes and forme of gouernment thorough out the worlde In common wealthes also there are conuersions one forme beeing chaunged into an other whiche can not be in the true Churche of God Io. Whitgifte Your acknowledging or not acknowledgyng the necessitie of Deanes c. is not greatly materiall they depende not vpon you To the example of king Saule the first king of Israell you say nothing and yet it is materiall There is no suche difference betwixte the ciuill gouernment of the common wealth and the externall gouernment of the Churche but that the one in many thinges may be vsed as an example for the other And it is vntrue y t the external forme of gouernment in the Church ought to be one and the selfe same thorough out the worlde in all tymes and places as it shall hereafter more fully appeare But still I woulde haue the Reader to note Tract 17. what kynde of gouernmente of the Churche you doe allowe and ioyne the same wyth that assertion of yours that the gouernment of the common wealth muste bée framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche as the hangyngs to the house Chap. 4. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 94. Sect. 2. As for Erasmus authoritie which saith that Titus was an archbishop I haue answered to it And where as Chrysostome sayeth that the iudgemente of many Bishoppes was committed to Titus * vntrue for you haue not as yet spoken one worde of it I haue declared in what sorte it is to be vnderstanded and yet vppon these wordes the Bishoppe can hardly conclude that whyche he dothe that Titus hadde the gouernmente of many Bishoppes For it is one thyng to saye the iudgement of many was committed vnto Titus and an other thing to say that he had the gouernment of many Io. Whitgifte And shall the same answere serue for Lyra too Well I haue answered your answere to Erasmus And I truste that these authorities wyth the Godlie Reader shall haue the more credite bycause this Reuerende Father dothe herein confirme their opinions whose iudgement for his singular vertue and learning ought to be more estemed than a number suche as you are You neyther haue answered nor doe answere nor can answere these wordes of Chrysostome and it is but a verie poore shifte to make suche a distinction betwixte iudgemente and gouernment For what is it else to haue the iudgemente of manye Byshoppes commytted vnto hym but to haue the gouernment shewe a difference if you can No doubte you woulde haue doone it if you coulde Wherefore this authoritie of Chrysostome remayneth vntouched and it confirmeth my answere to the Gréeke Scholiast who borrowed his wordes of him Neyther would you haue thus dalyed in this place if you had looked vppon Chrysostomes wordes who there affirmeth that Paule didde commytte to Titus the whole yle of Creta Chap. 4. the. 20. Diuision The fourth Reason The Ecclesiasticall and Ciuill gouernment maye not be confounded or be together Quarta ratio in one person But to be a chiefe or a ruler is a ciuil power Ergo it can not be exercised by any Ecclesiasticall person The ansvvere of the Bishop Bothe these gouernmentes vvere confounded in Moyses Therefore Eius solutio they may be confounded And the priestes of Israell had the iudgemente and gouernment of the people And Sainct Augustine was troubled vvith hearing and determining of causes as it appeareth by Possidonius And vvhere you saye to be a chiefe or a ruler is a ciuil gouernment nay in Ecclesiasticall causes it is ecclesiasticall gouernment and not ciuil And these differences of gouernment may not so vnaduisedly be confounded This is the key of ecclesiasticall correction and belongeth only to the ecclesiastical officer and to none other Hereof S. Paule sayth Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub c. Tradidi illum Satanae c. This iurisdiction is not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and therefore may be exercised by any ecclesiasticall person T. C. Page 94. Sect. 3. The answere of the Bishoppe vnto the fourthe supposed reason perteyneth vnto an other question that is whether Ecclesiastical persons oughte to exercise ciuill iurisdiction wherevnto I will answere by Gods grace when I come to speake vppon occasion of M. Doctors booke of that question In the meane tyme I will desire the reader to consyder what weake groundes the Archebishoppe and Archedeacon stande vppon seeyng that the Bishoppe of Sarum being so learned a man and of so greate readyng coulde say no more in their defense whiche notwithstandyng in the controuersies agaynst Doctor Harding is so pythie and so plentyfull Io. Whitgifte The Bishop of Sarum hathe sayde muche more than you haue answered vnto and in the respecte of the reasons he hath sayde fully inough You may not thinke but that if he had bin disposed to haue delt of purpose in this cause he coulde haue sayde muche more But your secrete and priuie nippes whereby y u 〈◊〉 to the Reader that he would willingly defende a false cause shall neuer be able to deface so worthie a Prelate You maye perceiue by this his conclusion 〈◊〉 toucheth you so néere that he tooke no great care or tyme for answering these weake reasons for thus he concludeth I beseeche you to take these sodaine answeres in good parte As for these reasons in my iudgement they are not made to buylde vp
〈◊〉 and of other Byshoppes sayeth that they were assembled oute at Aquileia by the commaundemente of the Emperoure The same dothe Hierome testifye concernyng a Councell holden at Rome In Epita Pauli Pope Iulio Epist. 9. ad Theodos. desyreth the Emperoure that by his authoritie there myghte be a Councell in Italye Zozomen libr. 6. cap. 7. sheweth howe certayne Catholyke Bishoppes intreated the Emperoure that they myght haue leaue to gather together for the redressing of certaine erroures But hat shall I neede to labour in a matter moste manifest No man can be ignorant that readeth Ecclesiasticall stories but that the Emperoures authoritie was r quired in summoning Councels and Synodes not only generall but prouinciall also Secondly it is vntrue that the Metropolitane in this Churche dothe not call Synodes or propoundeth not the matters in them c. For he dothe bothe althoughe he calleth no Prouinciall Synode withoute the commaund ment of the Prince no more than other Metropolitanes haue oone in the beste tyme of the Churche vnder christ an Princes Laste of all thoughe all thys were true that is éere vntruely affirmed yet were the office of an Archebishoppe necessarie for it dothe not onely consiste in calling Synodes but in sundrye thinges besyde as I haue shewed before and this councell of Antioche manyfestly declareth And surely yf you would proue any thyng hereof directely it s ould bée thys that eyth r the Archebishoppe dothe not exercyse that iurisdiction whyche he oughte to doe or else can not doe that whiche perteyneth to his office and so shoulde you speake for the amendement of the Archbishops iurisdiction Agayne you saye an other cause appeareth there whyche was to see that the Bishops kepte themselues within theyr owne diocesse c. but fyrst thys may be doone without an Archbishoppe c. I tell you there is no suche thyng in that nynthe Canon I say further that it maye beste an mos e orderly bée doone by an Archebis oppe Thirdely I answere as before that it is but one parte of his office Fourthely I saye vnto you that this is a symple Argumente the Archebishoppe dothe not kéepe suche olde Canons as bée not in vse in thys Churche therefore there is no neede of his office Laste of all you oughte to knowe that th se whom y u call wandering ministers be fai hefull Preachers a number of them And suche as laboure diligentely in preachyng the woorde and haue not a little profyted the flocke of Chryste so that youre conclusion is not woor h a strawe Chap. 5. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 1. Agayne the cause why the Metropolitane differed from the reste and why the callyng of the Synode was gyuen to him as it appeareth in the same Councell was for that the Chap. 9. greatest concour e was to that place and moste assemblie of menne wherevnto also may be added for that there was the best commoditie of lodgyng and of vittayling and for that as it appeareth in other Councells it was the place and feare of the Empire But with vs neyther the greatest conc urse nor assemblie of men nor the greatest commoditie of lodgyng and vittayi g neyther yet the seate of the kingdome is in the Metropolitane citie therefore with vs there is no suche cause of a Metropolitane or Archebishop Io. Whitgifte This is not alleadged as a cause why there shoulde be a Metropolitane or why he differed from y e rest or why the calling of the Synode was giuen vnto hym but rather why he was placed in the chiefe citie so that these wordes touche not the Metropolitane or his office but the aptnesse of the place where he shoulde continue And yet if credite be to be giuen yther to interpreters or to the glosse in Gratian caus 9. quae 3. per singulas the wordes be not as you interprete them for thus they be set downe in the booke of Councels Tom. 1. Pr pter quod ad Metropolim omnes vndique qui negoti videntur habere concurrant For the which let all that haue any businesse haue recourse from all places into the Metropolitane citie An other ranslation is thus Propter quod ad Metropolitanam ciuitatem ab his qui causas habent con urratur And this last interpretation the authors of the Centuries do vse Cent. 4. Of whiche wordes there can be no suche thing gathered as you doe imagine but farre otherwise And the meaning of the Councell is that suche as haue causes to be heard may resort to the Metropolitane citie where the Metropolitane is And you must vnderstand that it was in the power of the Emperour and other Princes to appoint the seat of the Metropolitan where it pleased them as it appereth in the. 12. cap. of the Councel of Chalcedon and in the. 17. Hom. of Chrysostome Ad populum Antiochenum Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 2. In the Councel of Carthage holden in Cyprians tyme it appeareth that no Bishoppe had authoritie ouer an other to compell an other or to condemne an other but euery Bishop was left at his owne libertie to answere vnto God and to make his accounte vnto Christe and if anye thing were doone against any Bishoppe it was done by the consent of all the bishoppes in the prouince or as many as coulde conuemently assemble Therefore Cyprian whiche was the Metropolitane bishop had then no authoritie ouer the rest and yet then there being no christian magistrate T C con esseth Cyprian to be a Metropolitane whych would punishe the disorders whiche were committed of the christian bishops there was greatest neede that there shoulde haue bene some one which myght haue had the correction of the reste If therefore when there was most nede of this absolute authoritie there neither was nor might be any suche it foloweth that nowe we haue a Christian magistrate which may and ought to punyshe the disorders of the Ecclesiasticall persons and may and ought to call them to account for their faultes that there shoulde be no suche nede of an Archbishop Io. Whitgifte You here fall into the same faulte that a little before you ascribed to me for you come backe from the Councell of Antioche whiche was Anno. 360. to the Councell of Carthage being Anno. 260. I omitte to tell you that that Councell concluded an heresie for the whiche only it was assembled And therefore though it be in the booke of the Councells yet is it not reckened among the Councels Only I demaund the woordes of that Councell that doe signifie one Bishoppe not to haue had authoritie ouer an other I tolde you before out of Cyprian himselfe and out of Gregorie Nazianzene that he had ample and large iurisdiction The wordes of Cyprian in that Councell whiche séeme to touche the matter you talke of I haue expounded and answered before they make not for your purpose It is no reason to proue that a Bishop muste not be subiecte to
and that there will not be wanting some probable colours also whereby these things may be defended if men will set themselues to striue and to contende yet for the desyre that I haue that these things should be amended and for the instruction of the symple which are studious of the truth I haue beene bolde to vtter that whiche I thinke not doubting also but that the lyght of the truth shall be able to scatter all those mystes of reasons which shall go about to darken the clearnesse thereof Io. Whitgifte Surely if the blottes be so manifest as you woulde séeme to make them it is not wisely done of you so slenderly to passe them ouer You do well to thinke that this treatise of yours touching prayer will be subiect to The pith of the replie concerning prayer many reprehensions and why shoulde it not What is there in it worthie of commendation What learning what reason what truth what godlinesse except vaine wordes be learning fancies reason lyes truth contempt of good lawes and orders with vnséemely iestes bée godlynesse for what is there else in thys treatise Truely if you had not settled your selfe to striue and to contende and had not béene desyrous to peruert the simple rather than to instruct them you would neuer vpon so weake a ground with so féeble reasons or rather vaine fansyes haue gone about to depraue so worthie a Booke In the whiche as I haue sayde before you are not able to shewe any thing especially touching the order maner and matter of prayer that is not consonant to the worde of God Neyther haue you for all that is spoken against the forme of prayer alledged one text of Scripture or one sentence of any auncient or late wryter and doe you thinke that men will beléeue you vpon your bare wordes agaynst so many Martyrs and learned men as haue allowed and doe allowe that booke Your credite is not so greate as you thinke it is and that which you haue when you are accordingly detected will vtterly vanishe and fade away Of Baptisme by women wherewith the Communion booke is falsely charged Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision Admonition In which a great number of things contrarie to Gods worde are conteyned as baptisme (i) Mat. 28. 19 1 Co. 14. 35 The fyrst appoynter hereof vvas Vietor 1. Anno. 198. by women Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 79. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. All prayers good in the Communion booke But you say a number of things contrarie vnto Gods worde are conteyned in this booke as baptisme by women c. Here is not one prayer in all the Communion booke founde fault with and yet your quarell is agaynst a prescript forme of prayers inuented by man You marueylously forget your selfe and confusedly go from matter to matter without any consideration Digressing therefore from prayers conteyned in the Communion booke you come to other matters in the same agaynst Gods worde as you say and first you alledge baptising by women I denie baptising by women to be expressed in that booke and when you haue proued it to be necessarily gathered out of the same then shall you heare my iudgement thereof T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 4. Mayster Doctor requireth that it shoulde be proued vnto him that by pryuate Baptisme is ment Baptisme by women First it is ment that it shoulde be done by some other than the Minister for that the Minister is bidde to giue them warning that they shoulde not baptise the childe at home in their house without great cause and necessitie secondarily I woulde gladly aske him who they be that are present when the childe is so shortly after it is borne in great daunger of death and last of all Mayster Doctor doth not see howe he accuseth all the Magistrates of this Realme of the neglect of theyr duetie in that they allowe of the dayly practising by women in baptising children if so be that the booke did not so appoynt it or permit it If he nt plainly herein there needed not so much a doe Io. Whitgifte Here is nothing sayde whiche the Authours of the Admonition haue not alledged before eyther in theyr booke or in theyr Additions and therefore the same answere that was made vnto them will serue for you I tolde you there Why baptism is called priuate that the booke of Common prayer doth call it priuate Baptisme in respect of the place which is a priuate house and not in respect of the Minister whiche euidently appeareth in these wordes whiche you your selfe alledge in this place that is that the Minister is bidde to giue them warning that they shoulde not baptise the childe at home in their house c. but you cannot thereof conclude the meaning of the Booke to be that women shoulde baptise for euen in that necessitie the Curate may be sent for or some other minister that may sooner be come by Your question is soone answered for no man doubteth of the persons that bée present at suche a tyme but I haue tolde you that when suche necessitie requyreth the Curate or the next Minister is soone sent for as often tymes he is in as great extremities as that and what a reason call you thys women bée present when the chylde that is borne is in great daunger of death therefore the Minister cannot be sent for to baptise the childe To your obiection of the Magistrates allowing the practise of Baptising by women I answere first that your generall proposition is vntrue as I thinke for all the Magistrates of this Realme doe not so Secondly that if they did yet it followeth not that they doe it by the authoritie of the Booke for many things bée permitted as tollerable whiche are not established by any lawe and therefore if you had done well you shoulde rather haue reproued the custome that doth vse it than the booke that speaketh neuer a worde of it I deale as playnly as I can for I kéepe me to the Booke But your vayne coniectures and friuolous reasons against that booke may not be yelded vnto but opened that they may appeare in their colours Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 79. Sect. vlt. Your places of Scripture alleadged against it are not of sufficient Feeble arguments force to proue your purpose Christ in the. 28. of Mathew sayde to his disciples Go and teache all nations baptisyng them in the name of the father c. ergo women may not baptise I saye this argumente followeth not no more than this doth Ergo pastors may not baptise for it is manyfest that an Apostle is dislincte from a Pastor T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 5. The place of the. 28. of Sainct Mathew is as strong agaynst womens baptizing as it is agaynst theyr preaching For (a) Vntruth 〈◊〉 hath 〈◊〉 the ministerie of the worde and Sacramentes can not be pulled in sunder which y e Lord hath ioyned togither from time to time For
hande of God from whome it certaynely commeth hereof we may gather that nothing is added or taken from the dignitie of it by him by whome it is ministred And therefore among men if an Epistle be sent so that the hande and seale be knowne it skilleth not who or what manner of person caryeth it euen so it is sufficient for vs to knowe the hande and seale of the Lorde in his Sacramentes by whomesoeuer they be deliuered Hereby is the errour of the Donatistes confuted who measured the vertue and woorthynesse of the Sacrament by the worthynesse of the minister Such be now a dayes our Anabaptistes which denie vs to be rightly baptized bycause we were baptized by wicked and idolatrous persons in the Popos Churche And therefore they furiously vrge rebaptisation agaynst whose folly we shall sufficiently be defended if we thinke that we were baptised not in the name of any man but in the name of the Father of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost and therefore baptisme not to be of man but of God by vvhome soeuer it be ministred Haec Caluinus Undoubtedly if this your assertion were true there had néede be some generall rebaptisation throughout all Christendome as well of men as of children for certayne it is that that Sacrament hath bene ministred to many by such as be in no degree of the ministerie Your opinion of a Deacon that he should nothing differ from a minister is very straunge and vnheard of in any writer olde or newe Shew any authour any example any Scripture that proueth or alloweth it Diaconus and Presbyter or Sacerdos be distinct in all Authours But I know wherefore this is affirmed of you euen to stoppe a gappe but it will not serue I will say no more the opinion is very absurde and vnlearned contrarie to the Scriptures and all learned Authours Neyther do you shew any reason of your Paradoxe which you ought to do seing it is Contra opinionem omnium contrarie to all mens opinions not one excepted Agaynst baptising by laye men in tyme of necessitie you haue no Scripture But Baptisme by Lay men not condemned us Scripture for the allowing of it you haue the authoritie of learned men euen such as were farre from the opinion of Augustine in condemning infantes not baptized as namely Zuinglius who also in the place before recited sufficiently answered whatsoeuer is here by you barely without any kinde of proofe set downe You haue also examples thereof in Ecclesiasticall histories Socrates Lib. 1. cap. Examples of baptisme by lay men 14. and Sozom. lib. 2. cap. 17. wryte That Alexander Bishop of Alexandria togither with the rest of the Clergie determined that baptisme which was ministred by Athanasius beyng Socrates but a childe to certayne other children to be true baptisme and not to be itterated bicause Sozomen after examination he was founde to haue vsed the woordes and right forme of baptisme hanasius beyng a childe baptised Whereby it is playne that the opinion of the Church at that tyme was the minister not to be of the substance or being of baptisme There is recited a storie in the Centuries Cent. 2. cap. 6. of a Iewe baptized in the case of necessitie by Laye men and with sande bicause there was no water Afterwarde the Bishop of Alexandria beyng demaunded of the matter De sententia Ecclesiae respondit baptizatum esse Iudaeum si modò aqua denuò perfunderetur He answered by the iudgement of the Churche that the Iewe was baptized if so be he were agayne sprinkled with water This argueth that the Church then made no doubt in the respect of the persons that ministred this Baptisme but onely bycause there lacked water This storie is cited out of Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 37. and alleaged by the Authours of the Centuries to proue the simplicitie of the Churche at that tyme aboute Baptisme neyther do they in any respect shewe any misliking of it And surely I know not wherein this opinion of yours doth differ from the Donatistes or Anabaptistes except it be in this that you speake of Laye men and they of Ministers And whereas you say that the minister is one of the chiefe partes and as it were of the The Replier in so weightie a matter vseth no proofes lyfe of the Sacrament In so weightie a cause and greate a matter it had bene well if you had vsed some authoritie of Scripture or testimonie of learned Authour for so farre as I can reade the opinion of all learned men is that the essentiall forme and as it were the lyfe of Baptisme is to Baptise in the name of the Father of the Sonne The essential poynt of baptisme and of the holy Ghoste which forme beyng obserued the Sacrament remayneth in full force and strength of whom soeuer it be ministred or howsoeuer by Ceremonies or other additiōs it is corrupted This I am sure is the answere of Zuinglius both in his booke De Baptismo and in his Elench contra Anabap. to the Anabaptists who would haue them all to be rebaptised that haue bene baptised in the Popes Churche And the same is the opinion of M. Caluine in the place before recited and of all other learned men that I haue redde And certaynely if the boyng of the Sacrament depended vpon man in any respect The force of baptisme 〈◊〉 not vpon 〈◊〉 but vpon God 1. Cor. 3. Confusion disorder is not maynteyned we were but in a miserable case for we should be alwayes in doubte whether wée were rightly baptized or no but it is most true that the force strength of the Sacrament is not in the man be he minister or not minister be he good or euill but in God himself in his spirite in his frée effectuall operation And therefore sayeth S. Paule VVhat is Paule what is Apollo c. This I speake not to bring cōfusiō into the Church for as I sayde before let men take héede that they vsurpe not an office wherevnto they be not called for God will call them to an account for so doyng but to teache a truth to take a yoke of doubtfulnesse from mens consciences and to resist an error not much differing from Donatisme and Anabaptisme Chap. 5. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag 114. Sect. 1. For although part of the institution in that the name of the holy Trinitie is called vpon be obserued yet if the whole institution be not it is no more a Sacrament than the Papists communion was which celebrating it in one kinde toke a parte of the institution and lefte the other Io. Whitgifte If you can shew as manifest Scripture that the minister is of the substance of Baptisme as I can do that the cuppe is one of the essentiall partes of the supper then it is something that you say but if there be no likelyhode betwixt the one and the other than can you not want iuste reprehension for so
Christ had not beene restreyned by the lawe of God touching the Passeouer vnto his owne familie being twelue and therefore a competent number to eare vp a lambe by themselues that he would haue celebrated his supper not only amongst his xii disciples which (*) They were made Apostles before and so called afterward he made Apostles but also amongst other of his disciples professors of his doctrine But forsomuch as it was meete that he should celebrate his supper there and then where and when he did celebrate his Passouer for the cause before by me alledged it pleased him to keepe his first Supper with twelue onely for that the law of Communication vnto the Passeouer which was ioyned with the supper woulde not admit any greater number of Communicants they being sufficient and enough to eate vp the passeouer Io. Whitgifte This is onely a coniecture but it ouerthroweth your argument for by your saying Christ had his twelue Apostles there at Supper bycause the lawe touching the Passcouer did bind him thereunto not bicause he would signifie that there should be no Communion except the whole Church do communicate The disciples were made Apostles before the institution of the Supper and were so called as it is euident Math. 10. Mark 3. and therefore I maruell what you meane Math. 10. Marke 3. in saying which afterwardes he made Apostles Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 117. Sect. 2. And althoughe it be cleare and plaine that when it is sayde drinke ye all of this and ta ie one for another these sayings are ment of that particular congregation or assemblie whiche assemble themselues togither to be taught by one mouth of the Minister yet I haue therefore put this caution of as much as may be possible least any man shoulde cauill as though I woulde haue no Communion vntill all the godly through the world should meete togither Likewise I haue put this caution as much as may be conueniently for although it be possible that any particular Church may communicate at one table in one day and togither yet may the same be inconuenient for diuerse causes As if the number shoulde be verie great so that to haue them all communicate togither it would require such a long time as the tary ng out of the whole action would hazard eyther the life or at least the health of dyuerse there Againe forasmuch as other some being at the Church it is meete that other shoulde be at home vpon occasion of infantes and suche lyke things as require the presence of some to tar e at home In these cases and suche lyke the inconueniences do deliuer vs from the gilt of vncharitablenesse and forsaking the felowship of the Church for that we doe not here seuer onr selues but are by good and iust causes seuered whiche gilt we shall neuer escape if besydes such necessarie causes we pretende those that are not or hauing not so much as a pretence yet notwithstanding separate our selues as the dayly practise through the Church doth shewe Io. Whitgifte If you be content to admit so many cautions and exceptions then is the question soone decyded and you make it no such commaundement but that vpon occasion it may be altered In déede the wordes of Christ do signifie that the cup of the Supper and the whole Supper is common to all as well of the laytie as we terme them as of the clergie but it doth not prescribe what number shall be present at euery seuerall Communion I doe not excuse those that withdrawe themselues from that Supper except it be vpon necessarie and iust occasion but I denie that the negligence or lawfull occasion of some ought to hinder or stay other from communicating this you should haue proued but you do not and your cautions and exceptions which I verie well allowe declare the contrarie Chap. 6. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Page 117. Sect. 3. But it may be obiected that in this poynt the booke of common prayer is not in fault whiche doth not onely not forbid that all the Church shoulde receyue togither but also by a good and godly exhortation moueth those that be present that they shoulde not depart but communicate altogither It is true that it doth not forbid and that there is godly exhortation for that purpose but that I say is not enough for neyther shoulde it suffer that three or foure shoulde haue a Communion by themselues so many being in the Church meete to receyue and to whome the Supper of the Lord doth of lyke right apperteyne and it ought to prouide that those which woulde withdrawe themselues should be by ecclesiasticall discipline at all tymes and now also vnder a godly Prince by ciuill punishment (*) This is clean contrarie to the Admonition pag. 109. brought to communicate with their brethren And this is the lawe of God and this is nowe and hath bene heretofore the practise of Churches reformed All men vnderstande that the Passeouer was a fygure of the Lordes Supper and that there shoulde be as straight bondes to binde men to celebrate the remembrance of our spirituall deliuerance as there was to remember the deliuerance out of Egypt But whosoeuer did not then communicate with the rest at that time when the Passeouer was eaten was excommunicated as it may appeare in the Numbers Num. 9. where he sayth that whosoeuer did not communicate being cleane (*) This is not excommunication but putting to death his soule should be cut of from amongst the people of God therefore this neglect or contempt rather of the Lordes Supper ought to be punished with no lesse punishment especially when as after the Church hath proceeded in that order which our Sauiour Christ appoynteth of admonishing they be not sorie for their fault and promise amendment And that this was the custome of the Churches it may appeare by Conc. Apo. Can. 9. the. 9. of those Cannons which are fathered of the Apostles where it is decreed that all the faythful that entred into the congregation and heard the Scriptures read and did not tarie out the prayers and the holy Communion should be as those which were cause s of disorders in the Church separated from the Church or as it is translated of an other depriued of the Communion Also in the councell of Braccara it was decreed that if any entring into the Church of God heard the Scriptures Con. 2. Bracca cap. 83. om 2. and afterwarde of wantonnesse or losenesse withdrew himselfe from the Communion of the Sacrament and so brake the rule of discipline in the reuerend Sacraments should be put out of the church till such time as he had by good frutes declared his repentance Io. Whitgifte I do not much disagrée from this sauing that I sée no reason that thrée or foure should be debarred from so comfortable and fruteful a Sacrament either for the negligence or necessarie impediments of others except also your
Sunday whiche you haue denied to be his opinion in the former two places I haue tolde you what he meaneth by discipline and order or pollicie whereby he giueth to vnderstande nothing lesse than that whiche you woulde conclude beyng but your owne deuise to serue for a poore shifte at a néede And although the matter is not greate whether they labour or no yet the lawe of the Prince and the order of the Churche is to be obserued And so it appeareth that there is no reasonable cause as yet proued why you ought not to subscribe to the seruice Booke Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 82. Sect. 1. 2. In the ende you adde patched if not altogither yet the greatest peece out of the Popes Portuis To this I answere briefely it maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in what Booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and consonant to Gods worde Well sayeth Ambrose Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu Sancto est All truth of vvhome soeuer it is spoken is of the holy ghost T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 6. Nowe whereas M. Doctor sayeth it maketh no matter wither these thinges be taken out of the Portuis so they be good c. I haue proued first they are not good then if they were yet beyng not necessarie and abused horribly by the Papists other beyng as good and better than they ought not to remayne in the churche Io. Whitgifte Your reasons be not sufficient to proue them not to be good the abuse hath not bene suche but that it beyng remoued the thing may still remayne as profitable and The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 iudgement conuenient the iudgement of the Churche in determining what is best and moste fittest in matters of order pollicie and gouernment not beyng agaynst the worde of God is to be preferred before any priuate mans opinion and imagination Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 10. And as for Ambrose saying all truth of whome soeuer it be sayde is of the holy ghoste if I were disposed to moue questions I coulde demaunde of him which careth not of whome he haue Mark 1. the truth so he haue it what our Sauiour Christe ment to refuse the testimonie of Deuils when they gaue a cleare testimonie ▪ that he was the Sonne of God and the holy one And what S. Paule ment to be angrie and to take it so grieuously that the Pithonisse sayde he and his companion Act. 16. were the seruantes of the highe God which preached vnto them the way of saluation Here ▪ was truth and yet reiected and I would knowe whether M. Doctor would saye that these spake by the spirite of God Thus whilest without all iudgement he snatcheth here a sentence and there another out of the Doctoures and that of the worste as if a man should of purpose choose out the brosse and leaue the siluer within a while he will make no great difference not onely betwene the Prophetes and Apostles and prophane wryters as Aristotle and Plato but not betwene them and those which speake not by the conduyte and leading of the holy ghoste but by the violent thrusting of the wicked spirite Io. Whitgifte Christe liked not the truth beyng vttered of the Diuell bycause he spake it of an euill meaning but he liked very well the same testimonie of truth afterwardes vttered by Peter sincerely Math. 16. Mar. 8. Neyther did he mislike the woordes bycause they were abused by the Diuell before But I will leaue Diuels and speake of men of whome I thinke Ambrose mente although the truth is truthe of whome soeuer it is vttered but to Answere for Ambrose he hath sayde nothing in that sentence which may not be iustified M. Caluine vpon these woordes 1. Corinth 12. And no man can saye that Iesus is the Caluine Lorde but by the holy Ghost sayeth thus It may be demaunded whether the wicked haue the Spirite of God seyng they sometime testifie playnely and well of Christe I answere that there is no doubte but that they haue so much as concerneth that effect but it is an other thing to haue the gifte of regeneration than to haue the gifte of bare vnderstanding wherewith Iudas was indued when he preached the Gospell M. Martyr also vpon the same woordes after he hath recited the opinions of other P. Martyr maketh this resolution But when I weygh this matter with my selfe I perceyue that the Apostle here dothe speake not of the Spirite whiche doth regenerate or of that grace which iustifieth but of the giftes which are freely giuen whiche may happen as well to the good as to the euill Therefore I thinke that Paule spake simply that he might declare that by what meanes soeuer we speake well of Christe it is of the holy Ghost of whome Omne verum à spiritu sancto est commeth all truthe as all vntruth proceedeth of the Deuill who is the father of lyes You sée therefore that Ambrose is not of this iudgement alone and that his saying is verie true The Doctoures that I haue vsed in this cause be Ierome and Augustine whiche be not the worst but comparable with the best I haue rehearsed out of them whole sentences and perfite the which you are not able to answere the rest of your opprobrious woordes wherewith you conclude this question of holy dayes I leaue for other to consider of as notes of your spirite And to the intent that the Reader may vnderstande that it was not for naught that you set not downe my Booke togither with your Replie I will here set downe such portions of my booke touching this matter as you haue not answered vnto but closely passed ouer not thinking that any man should haue espied your lacke of abilitie to answere them Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Admonition They should first proue that holy dayes ascribed to Sayncts prescript seruices for them c. are agreeable to the written worde of the Almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 153. Sect. 4. Pag. 154. Sect. 1. Holy dayes ascribed to Sainctes wherein not the Sainctes but God is honoured and the people edified by reading and hearing suche stories and places of Scripture as perteyne to the martyrdome calling ▪ and function of such Sainctes or any other thing mentioned of them in Scripture must needes be according to Gods worde For to honor God to worship him to be edified by the stories and examples of Sainctes out of the Scripture cannot be but consonant to the Scripture The prescript secuice for them is all taken out of Gods worde and not one peece thereof but it is moste consonant vnto the same If ther be any that is repugnant set it down that we may vnderstande it I tolde you before that touching the dayes and times and other Ceremonies the churche hath authoritie to determine what is most cōuenient
of that Sacrament Io. Whitgifte But if it had bene so necessary a matter as you make it and of the substance of the sacramentes it would haue bene expressed by one meanes or other seing therefore it is not the wordes and order of the holy Euangelistes must bée credited before your bolde coniectures The. 5. Diuision Act. 2. Act. 8. 12. Vers. 38. Act. 9. Act. 10. Act. 16. Vers. 15. 33. Act. 20. T. C. Page 125. in the midst And this order of preaching immediatly before the ministring of the Sacramentes is continually noted of S. Luke throughout the whole story of the Actes of the Apostles Io. Whitgifte It is not denied but that men must first be conuerted to Christe by preaching of the worde before the Sacramentes be ministred vnto them and therevnto tende all those places of y e Acts which be noted in y e margent But our questiō is whither preaching be so necessarily ioined with y e administratiō of y e sacramēts y e neither y e faithful which wel vnderstand y e vse of thē neither infantes whose capacitie wyll not serue to learne may be made partakers of y e sacraments without a sermon preached before The. 6. Diuision T. C. Page 125. about the midst But I wyl not precisely say neyther yet do y e authors of y e Admonition affirme as M. doctor surmiseth of them that ther must be preaching immediatly before the administration of the sacramēts This I saye that when as the (*) An vntrue and soule error life of the sacramentes dependeth of the preaching of the worde of God there must of necessitie the worde of God be not read but preached vnto the people amongst whome the sacramentes are ministred Io. Whitgifte What do you saye then or wherefore contende you no man euer denied preaching to be very conuenient But the Authours of the Admonition saye That in the olde tyme the worde was preached before the sacramentes were ministred nowe it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read To what purpose be these woordes spoken except their meaning be to haue the worde preached at all times when the Sacramentes be ministred so that you would séeme to saye something in their defense when you haue done you make a doubt of the matter and begin to halte saying that you wil not precisely saye c. This saying of yours that the life of the sacramentes dependeth of the preaching of the The life of y e sacramentes dependeth not of preaching The absurdities of the assertion of the Replier worde of God c. is moste vntrue and in mine opinion a foule error for the lyfe of the Sacramentes depende vpon Gods promises expressed in his worde and neither vpon preaching nor vpon reading If this doctrine of yours be true then be the sacramites dead sacramentes and without effect except the worde be preached when they be ministred And so in déede do some of your adherentes in playne termes affirme saying that they are seales without writing and playne blankes Whiche doctrine sauoureth very strongly of Anabaptisme and doth depriue those of the effectes and fruites of the Sacramentes which haue bene partakers of them without the worde preached when they were ministred and so consequently euen your selfe for it is not like that there was a sermon at your Christening And therefore this doctrine must of necessitie The doctrine of the Replier tēdeth to plain Anabaptisme bring in both rebaptisation and condemne the baptisme of infantes which is flat Anabaptisticall For if that baptisme be without life at the which the woorde of God is not preached then can it not regenerate or be effectuall to those that were therwith baptised And therefore must of necessitie be iterated that it may be liuely Againe isbaptisme be dead at the which the word of God is not preached then can it do no good to such as haue no vnderstanding of the worde of God preached that is to infantes For if the preaching of the worde be so necessarily ioyned with the administration of the Sacramentes it is in the respect of those that are to receiue the sacraments then must it needes folowe y e the saramēts may be ministred to none but to such as be able to heare the word of God whereby infantes must be secluded from baptisme And in déede this is one of the strongest arguments that the Anabaptistes vse against the baptising of infantes as shal hereafter apeare For of this the Reader shall vnderstand more by y t which straightway I will set down out of Zuinglius The. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 125. somevvhat past the midst And forasmuch as I haue proued before that no man may minister the sacraments but he which is able to preach the word although I (*) Belike you are in doubt of your doctrine dare not affirme that there is an absolute necessitie that y e word should be preached immediatly before y e sacramēts be ministred yet I can imagin no case wherin it is either meete or cōuenient or els almost sufferable that the sacramentes should be ministred without a sermon before them for the minister being as he ought of necessitie to be able to preach ought so to do And if it be said that his health or voyce wil not serue him sometimes to preach when he is able enough to minister the sacraments (*) Ergo one may preache out of his own cure which is cōtrary to your doctrine I say that either he ought to beg y e help of an other minister harde by or else there is lesse inconuenience in deferring y e celebration of the sacrament vntil he be strong enough to preach than ministring it so maymedly and without a sermon wherby it is seene how iust cause M. Doctor hath to call these blynde and vnlearned gatherings which he with his Egles eye his great learning can not scatter nor once moue Io. Whitgifte Tract 6. cap. 1 Tract 9. cap. 1. diuis 15 I haue sufficiently proued that the administration of the Sacramente of Baptisme may be committed to those which be not preachers of the worde If the life of the sacrament depende of the preaching of the worde as you haue said before then there is an absolute necessitie that the worde be preached immediatly before the sacramentes be ministred and therefore in making this doubt you doe but declare a wauering mynde and an vncerteyne iudgement Howe can he begge helpe of an other minister seing no man may preache in an other mans cure 〈◊〉 in the 〈◊〉 You greatly forget your self and the absurditie of your doctrine appeareth by your owne contrarieties But nowe that it may be knowen howe neare in this point you approche to Anabaptisme The 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 approcheth to 〈◊〉 ▪ I will note one or two places out of Zuinglius touching this matter In his booke De baptismo speaking against this selfe same assertion of the Anabaptistes he saith thus The
is collected into some one narow and certaine place To be shorte it can not be gouerned when it is ful of hypocrites Papists Atheis s and other wicked persons as when it hath verie fewe or none such as cōmonly it hath not in tyme of persecution when the gold is as it were by fyre tried from the drosse He that according to this diuersitie of the forme state time of the church doth not allow a diuersitie of gouernment doth confound and not edifie I praye you what Seniors could you haue in most parishes in England fit for that office But wise not wilful men haue to consider this God hath giuē the chief gouernment of his church to the christian magistrate who hath to consider what is most conuenient and we must therwith be content so that nothing be done against faithe and the commaundement of God TC Pag. 142. Sect. 1. Nowe I will come to M. Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundreth fourteene and a hundred and fiftene pages where he graunteth that there were elders in euery Churche in times past but saith that it ought not now so to be For saith he the times alter the gouernment and it cannot be gouerned in the time of prosperitie as in the time of persecution vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant Thus he sayth but sheweth no reason bringeth no proofe declareth not how nor why prosperitie will not beare the elders as well as persecution neyther why they may not be vnder a godlie prince as well as vnder a tyrant v lesse this be a reason that bycause the godlye prince doth nourish the church as a ciuile Magistrate therfore the Auncients may not nourishe it as ecclesiasticall ouerseers Io. Whitgifte My reason why it may not be gouerned vnder a Christian Prince as it maye The Church may no be gouerned vnder 〈◊〉 stian Prince as 〈◊〉 a tyrant vnder a tyrant is this God hath giuen the chiefe authoritie in the gouernmente of his church to the Christian magistrate which could not so be if your Seignorie might as wel retein their authoritie vnder a Christian Prince and in the time of peace as vnder a tyrant and in the tyme of persecution For tell me I pray you what authoritie ecclesiasticall remayneth to the ciuill Magistrate where this Seignorie is established But that the Reader may vnderstande this not to be my iudgement alone but the iudgement also of famous learned men the practise of w ll reformed churches I thought good in this place before I proceed any further to report the opinions of Musculus and Gualter touchyng this matter Musculus in his common places titulo de Magistratibus affirmeth that notwithstanding in the 〈◊〉 tyme the Musculus churches were ruled by Seniors yet they may not so be vnder christian rulers and Magistrates who haue authoritie not in ciuill matters only but in ecclesiastical also His wordes I haue recited before M. Gualter in his cōmentaries vpon 1. Cor. 5. Supra in the 4. diuision doth at large entreat of this matter whose wordes bicause they haue pith in them and proceede from him which is both learned and godlie and of great experience I will reher e them as I finde them There are also others which although they haue true christian princes and want no lawes wherby licentious maners are corrected yet they say they nede an ecclesiastical senate Gualter in 1. Cor. 5. which might punish euery man and haue authoritie also ouer Princes that it might seclude them fr the Lords supper if they haue giuē any publike offence not to admitte them againe vnto the felowship of the Church but vpon their allowāce after publike satisfactiō And if any man do contrary them in their opinion by and by they crie out vpon him as the enemie of all discipline as one vnwoorthy to haue any place in the Church as though there could no other forme of discipline be appointed but that whiche they haue inuented But they must pardone vs and let them not condemne vs rashly which do dissent from them not without good reason You sée therefore how your Seigniorie and kinde of gouernmente is liked euen of zelous and godly ministers of reformed churches Neyther do I remember that I euer read any authoure that dothe of necessitie require it scripture I know you haue none for it Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 142 Sect. 2. Nowe seing M. Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now as in the time of the Apostles as well vnder a Christian prince s vnder a Tyrant I will shewe him that although they be always necessary yet there is better cause why they should rather be now than in the Apostles times greater necessitie vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant First of all in the Apostles times it is knowne that the gifts of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge enduring of trauayle were poured foorth more plentifully then euer they were eyther before or shall be after By reason whereof the Pastors and ministers of the churches that were then were I speake generally and of the estate of the whole Church better furnished with the gifts needefull for their ministerie than are the ministers of these days Whervpon I conclude that if the ayd and assistance of the Pastor by the Elders was thoughte necessary by the Apostles in those times when the ministers were so wel and so richly replenished with such gifts much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the ministers of these days wherein their gifts of discretion knowledge and diligence are not so plentifull For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue whose hands so nimble to execute had neede for their ayde of other eyes and other handes then the ministers now whose eyes are dimmer and hands heauier than theirs were haue much more neede of this ayde than they had Io. Whitgifte This reason is answered two ways and that briefly The first is bycause there is not at this time in euery congregation so méete men for that office of Seniors as there was then for God hath not now so plentifully poured the giftes of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge c. vpon so many in euery congregation according to your owne confession as he did then and therefore nothing so easie to fiad in euery congregation meete men to gouerne ▪ a it was then Secondly the ciuill and Christian The ciuill ma gistrate a better help to the minister than the Seniors Magistrate hath that whole authoritts now that Seniors had thē and much more for he may punish with corporall punishment and so could not they he may compell and coustrayne and so could not they so that the Pastor may be much better ayded and assisted in doing his dutie and in suppressing vice by the authoritie of the Christian Magistrate than he eyther was then or could be now by the
haue one kinde of gouernment in the Churche and an other in the common wealth seing that God hath committed the chief care of them both to one and the self same person Thirdly I denie your antecedent that is that a popular or Aristocraticall qinde of gouernyng the churche doth more easyly decline into their contaries vnder a tyrant than vnder a Christian magistrate for men being in persecution and in dayly expectation of death are not so desirous to procure vnto themselues authoritie dominion as they be in the time of peace and prosperitie Moreouer vnder a tyrant and in the tyme of persecution those that be appoynted gouernours of the Church be but for a time only and during the pleasure of such as appointed them and therefore can not vsurpe any vnlawfull iurisdiction ouer the rest against their willes In such times of the Church rather disobedience and stubbornesse in the common sort than tyrannie or oppression in the gouernours is to be feared Surely you would fayne haue reason for your popular cause if you could tell where to fynde it And lette the Reader note the myght of this your reason the popular and Aristocratical kind of gouernment may more easyly decline to their contraries vnder a tyrant than vnder a Christian magistrate therfore y e gouernmēt of the church must be popular or Aristocratical rather vnder a Christian magistrate thā vnder a tyrant Nowsoeuer the antecedent is true there is no sequele in the argument For vnder a tyrant necessitie doth driue the Church oftentymes to one of these two kindes of gouernment but when there is a Christian Magistrate God hath appointed it to bée subiect to him Chap. 2. the eleuenth Diuision T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 1. Besides this in the time of persecution all assemblies of diuers together were dangerous put them all in hazard of their life which did make those assemblies therfore if the pastor alone might haue ordred and determined of things perteining to the church by himself it had ben lesse danger to him more saftie for others of the churche And therfore if the seniors were then thoughte meere to gouern the church when they could not come together to exercise their functions without daunger muche more ought they to be vnder a Christiā prince when they may mete together without danger Io. Whitgifte These be the homeliest reasons that euer I hearde the lightest to be vsed in so waightie a matter For first the Seniors might as safely méet together in the tyme of persecution to exercise discipline as the whole church to heare the word of God to pray Secondly it was not so daungerous for foure or fiue to méet together Thirdly no daunger ought to be feared when a man séeketh to do his dutie Fourthly what kind of reason cal you this the Seniors may with lesse daūger méet together to execute their fuuctions vnder a Christian Prince than vnder a tyrant therfore there ought rather to be Seniors vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant I statly denie the argument For vnder a tyrant the churche must haue that kinde of gouernment that it may most conueniently enioy with what daunger so euer it be ioyned vnder a Christian Magistrate it must be subiecte to his authoritie and gouerned by him seing that God hath cōmmitted vnto him the chief care gouernment therof Wherfore the office of Seniors is nothing necessarie where ther is a Christian magistrate but it is vsurpation rather of the office of the Magistrate and a detracting from his authoritie neyther hathe God in any place of the Scriptures commaunded obedience to those your Seniors or described their office but he hath done both expressely touching the ciuill Magistrate Chap. 2. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 2. M. Doctor procedeth and sayth it can not be gouerned in a whole realme as it may be in a citie or towne This gouernment by Seniors is not only in one citie but also hath bin of late throughout the whole realme of Fraunce where there were any churches and M. Doctor confesseth that it was in all the prinutiue Churches and therfore not onely in one realme but almost thoroughout the whole worlde and therfore the large spreading of the Churche can not hynder it So that the difference lyeth stil in the peace aud persecution of the churche and not in the capacitie and largenesse of the place where the churches abyde So myghte one reason agaynste the lawfull estate of a Monarchie for he might say that although the rule of one be needful and conuement in a houshold yet it is not conuenient in a towne and although it be conuenient in a towne yet it is not in a citie and although in a citie yet not in a realme Io. Whitgifte If you will so deuide these seueral cities and Churches in one kingdome that they be not vnder one gouernoure ruled by the same lawes members of one kingdome but euery one of them as it were a common wealth within it selfe as it is in Scon spoil 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seuerall Churches within one kingdome in the time of persecution then it is true that you say and in this case were the primitiue Churches and so were the Churches in Fraunce But when as all the Townes and Churches in one kingdome be subiect as wel in causes Ecclesiastical as ciuil to one prince ruled by the same lawes c. then can you not establish this your Seigniorie without great confusion and vntollerable iniurie to the minister of God I meane the Christian Magistrate The authoritie of the Master of the housholde ouer his family derogateth nothing from the authoritie of the Prince but doth confirme and establish it rather But the authoritie of your Seniors in euery congregation spoyleth the prince of his Iurisdiction and maketh him subiect where he ought to be ruler and therefore your reason is not like Chap. 2. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 3. To be short saith he when he can say no more it cannot be gouerned when it is full of hypocrites Papists Atheists and other wicked persons as in the times of persecution when ther were few or none such I haue shewed before how great want of knowledge it bewrayeth to saye that Papists and Atheists be of the Church and I loue not as M. Doctor both to vse often reperition but if there be now moe hypocrites and other wicked and vnruly persons in the Churche than there were in the time of persecution which I will not denie then there is greater cause noro why there should be Seniors in euery Church than there was then when there were fewer For the more naughty persons and the greater disorders there be the more ayde and help hath the pastor neede to haue both to find out their disorders and also when they haue found them out to iudge of the qualitie of them and after also to correct them with the censutes of the Church which
memorem esse oportet Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. vlt. c. It may be the clerelier vnderstanded that the presbyterie or eldership had the chiefe stroke in this excommunication if it be obserued that this was the pollicie and discipline of the Iewes and of the Synagogue from whence our sauiour Christ tooke this translated it vnto his church that when any man had done any thing that they helde for a taulte that then the same was punished and censured by the elders of the church according to the qualitie of the faulte as it may appeare in S. Mathew for although it be of some and those very learned expounded of the ciuil iudgement vet for Cap. 5. so much as the Iewes had nothing to do with ciuill iudgementes the same being altogethe in the handes of the Romaines and that the worde Sanedrim corrupted of the Greeke worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which S. Mathew vseth is knowen by those that haue skill in the Rabbines and especially the Iewes Talmud to signifie the ecclesiasticall gouernours there can be no doubt but he meaneth the ecclesiasticall censures And if the fault were iudged very great then the sentence of excommunication Cap. 9. was awarded by the same Elders as appeareth in S. Iohn And this was y e cause why our sauiour Christe spake so shortly without noting the circumstances more at large for that he spake of a thing which was wel knowen and vsed amongst the Iewes whome he spake vnto Io. Whitgifte It is very vnlike that our sauiour Christ would borow any such manner or forme of gouernment from the Iewes séeing the same was neither before prescribed vnto them by God nor yet at that time rightly vsed but moste shamefully abused and yet if it were so it quite ouerthroweth your purpose For the Iewes Seigniorie was only at Ierusalen yours must be in euery parishe besides that there is a great differ ce in the persons Howbeit I do not vnderstand how you can drawe the place in the. 5. of Mathew to your purpose for if you meane these wordes Quicunque dixerit fratri suo Racha obnoxius Math. 5. erit concilio He that calleth his brother Racha shal be in daunger of a councell as I am sure you do Christ doth not there prescribe any forme of gouernment or order of punishing but he declareth the degrées of vncharitable dealing towardes our brethren the increase of punishmentes according to the same M. Bullinger in his Cōmentaries vpon that place saith that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Bullinger doth signifie consessum Iudicum buiusmodi consessum qualis apud Graecos erat Amphictyonum qui de grauissimis solebant consultare causis And he addeth that Christ hereby signifieth that as the faulte increaseth so doth the punishment also M. Caluine likewise in his harmony vpon the Gospel saith that Christ in this place Caluine alluding to earthly iudgementes doth testifie that God wil be iudge euen of secret anger to punishe it And bicause he proceedeth further which vttereth his anger in bitter speache he saith that he is giltie coram toto coelesti consessu before the celestiall assembly that he may sustaine the greater punishment Noua Glossa saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie an assemblie of iudges and that in suche Noua Glossa assemblies as at Athens in the court of Mars weightier causes were wont to be handeled and punishmentes for offenders consulted vpon There saith that commentarie Christe by the name of a councell alluding to the manners and customes of men teacheth that those are more greuously to be punished which more vtter and expresse their anger Beza sayth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth that kinde of gouernment wherein there was 23. Beza Iudges to whome did apperteine the hearing of waighty causes And the marginall note of the Geneua bible vpon this place is this Like iudgement almoste the Romains obserued for Triumuiri had the examinatiō of small matters the Councell of 23. of greater causes and finally great matters of importance were decided by the senate of 71. iudges whiche here is compared to the iudgement of God or to be punished with hel fire Which fully agréeth with M. Beza his interpretation who sayeth also that it is according to the Hebrewe commentaries Now how you can pul this to your Seigniorie or to Ecclesiastical gouernours only and especially to excommunicatiō I cannot learne or reade in any wryter these whome I haue here named teache a farre other sense and meaning of the wordes of Christe than you do Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 147. Lin. 15. And that this was the meaning of our sauiour Christ in those wordes it may appeare by y e practise which is set forth in the Epistles to the Corinthians For it is certaine that S. Paule did both vnderstande and obserue the rule of oure Sauiour Christe But he communicateth this power of excommunication with the churche and therefore it must needes bee the meaning of oure Sauiour Christ that the excommunication should be by many not by one and by the churche and not by the minister of the churche alone For he biddeth the church of Corinthe twise in the first Epistle 1. Cor. 5. once by a metaphore another time in plaine wordes that they should excommunicate the incestuous persone By metaphore saying (*) This is not 〈◊〉 of the in 〈◊〉 persone purge out your olde leauen in playne flat words when he sayth take away that wicked man from amongst you And in the second Epistle vnderstanding of the repentāce 2. Cor. 2. of that man he entreateth them that they would receiue him in again shewing that he was content to release the bond chaine of his excommunication so that they would do the same therfore considering the absolution or reconciliation of the excommunicate doth pertayne vnto y e church it followeth that the excommunication doth in like manner apperteine vnto it Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine speaking of the wordes of Christ Math. 18. wherein I am sure you will haue the same order of gouernmēt to be expressed that is in this place of Math. 5. doth make great differēce betwixt the order there prescribed by Christ that practised by the Apostle 1. Cor. 5. bicause in that place Christ committeth the matter to a few in this place the Apostle séemeth to commit it to the whole multitude M. Caluines words be these A question may be asked what he meaneth by the name of the Churche for Paule Caluine in 18. Math. commaundeth the incestuous Corinthian to be excōmunicated not of any chosen number but of the whole company of the godly wherfore it is probable that here the iudgement is committed to the whole people But bicause then as yet there was no church which professed Christ neither any such order appointed and the Lord speaketh
which are very negligent in hearing sermons and in the vse of the Lords supper and furthermore whiche do offend the Church with their wicked life For such if they liue in the citie they are throwen out of the felowship of the wardes or companies so that they can buy and sell with no man neyther are they capable of any honoure or publike office But if they dwell in the countrey they are kept from the vse of the commō pastnres and woods And this way is most meete for vs let other cities and countries do that which they thinke to be most profitable for their people for so much as it is euident that the same forme of discipline cannot be appoynted and obserued in all places I wish the other remoued from those Courtes and this in the place of it But that Byshops may lawfully vse the true ecclesiasticall excommunication I haue proued before Denie it you as oft as you will you can shew no sound reason or ground of your deniall Chap. 2. the thirde Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 3. And other thing is that in these courtes which they call spiritual they take the knowledge of matters which are eere ciuill thereby not only peruerting the order whiche God hath appointed in seuering the ciuil causes from y e ecclesiastical but (*) A manifest vntruth iustling also with the ciuill Magistrate and thrusting him from the iurisdiction which apperteyneth vnto him as the causes of the contracts of marriage of diuorces of willes and testaments with diuerse other such like things For although it apperteme to the Church and the gouernours thereof to shew out of the word of God which is a lawful contract or iust cause of diuorse and so foorth yet the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentences of all these do apperteine vnto the ciuill Magistrate Herevnto may be added that all their punishmentes almost are penalties of money whiche can by no meanes apperteyne to the Church but is a thing meerely ciuill Io. Whitgifte We giue to the ciuill magistrate authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes and we acknowledge Ecclesiasticall courts executed in the prin ces name all iurisdiction that any court in England hath or doth exercise be it ciuill or ecclesiasticall to be executed in hir maiesties name and righte and to come from hir as supreme gouernoure so farre are we off from iustling with hir or thrusting hir from the iurisdiction which perteyneth vnto hir neyther do we make any such distinction betwixt ciuill and ecclesiasticall causes as the Pope and you do And therfore we Who they are that iustle with the ciuill magistrate are not they that detract any thing from the ciuil magistrate but it is the Pope and you who both thrust him from the iurisdiction that by the law of God and all equitie he ought to haue in Ecclesiasticall matters God hath not so seuered ciuil causes from Ecclesiasticall but that one man may be iudge in them both and if it perteine to the Church to declare what is a lawfull contract which be the iust causes of diuorce by what reason can you proue that the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentence of those matters doth perteine to the ciuill magistrate only For is not he most méete to iudge in these causes which best vnderstandeth them but both this and that whiche followeth you speake without reason and therefore the custome of the Church and the lawes appoynted for the same now also receyued and confirmed by the ciuill magistrate with the consent of the whole Realme must be of greater force than your single words Chap. 2. the fourth Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. vlt. Thirdly as they handle matters which do not apperteyne vnto the Ecclesiastical iurisdiction so those which do apperteyne vnto the Church they do turne from their lawfull institution vnto other ends not sufferable which M. Doctor himselfe doth confesse in excommunicating for money c. Io. Whitgifte So I do indéede but it is the fault of the man not of the law Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 151. Sect. 1. Last of all they take vpon them those things which are neyther lawfull for ciuil nor ecclesiasticall iurisdiction nor simply for any man to do of which sort diuerse are reckened vp by the Abmonition and some confessed by M. Doctor I will not here speake of the vnfitnesse of those whiche are chiefe officers in these courtes that the most of thē are eyther Papists or bribers or drunkerds I know what I write or Epicures and suche as liue of benefices and Prebends in Englande and in Irelande doing nothing of those thinges whiche apperteyne vnto them and of other suche naughty persons which are not only not meete to be gouernours in the Churche but which in any reformed Church shoulde not be so much as of the Church I speake not of all I doubt not but there be some do that which they do of conscience and with minde to help forward the Churche whiche I trust will when the Lorde shall giue them more knowledge keepe themselues in theyr vocations and being men for their gifts apt and able eyther to serue the Churche or the common wealth in some other calling will rather occupy their gifts there than where they haue no ground to assure themselues that they do please God Io. Whitgifte For as much as you referre vs to the Admonition to know what these thinges be that Chancellours c. take vpō thē being lawful neyther for ciuil nor ecclesiasticall iurisdictiō I will also referre you to my Answer made to that part of the Admonition Your slaunderous and opprobrious speaches against the men hauing little to say A tast of the Repliers diuinitie against their offices they must take in good part vntill you come foorth namely to accuse them but I am sory that they being as you saye suche persons shall haue little occasion to be perswaded to amendment of life by you whome they sée as factious in religion as they are péeuish in condition as corrupt with affections as they be with bribes as deepe in spite and malice as they be in drunkennesse What diuinitie call you this thus to libell against men in authoritie whome you dare not accuse to their faces I defend them not if ther be any such nay I wish them seuerely punished but you vtter nothing lesse than the frutes of diuinitie and I woulde haue you come foorth to accuse them Touching their benefices and prebendes they will defend themselues by the examples of your adherentes whereof some haue shaken off the ministerie and yet kéepe their Prebends some misliking the state of this Church crying out of the Canon lawe the Court of faculties c. take notwithstanding all the benefyte thereby that they can some of them reteyning two some 4. c. and yet do full little duetie nay rase vp rather than plant But why do I fall into this vayne which I mislike in you I am
when he glorieth in troubling them yet that of all is most vntollerable that besides the iniurie which he dothe them he is angry that they wyll not lay handes of them selues by casting themselues out of their liuings or euer they be cast out by him Tully maketh mention of one C. Fimbria whiche when he had caused Q. Sceuola a singular man to be wounded and sawe that he dyed not of it conuented him before the Iudges and beeing asked what he had to accuse him of answered for that he dyd not suffer the whole weapon wherewith he was striken to enter into hys body euen so M. Doctor contenteth not him selfe only to doe iniuries vnto men but accuseth them also that they will not doe it vnto them selues or that they would not willingly suffer his weapons enter so farre as he would haue them Io. Whitgifte I trust there is not one that can iustly saye I haue without great cause molested him if there be any suche or whome I haue by any meanes iniuried I refuse not to answere and to satisfie him yea it is my desire that it maye come to the triall so shall many slaunderous spéeches togither with the authors of them be founde as they are C. Fimbria was a very proude sedicious Romane and one that disquieted the C. Fimbria Q. Sceuola state of the common wealth and greatly enuied his superiours Q. Sceuola was a wyse and a prudent Senatour one that liued in authoritie and obserued lawes him selfe and caused the same to be obserued by other Sceuola surely you can not be for you are neyther of that credite for wisdome nor of that authoritie in the cōmon wealth nor so diligent an obseruer of good orders and lawes your conditions come nearer to Fimbria I will not conclude you shall doe it your selfe If I haue done you any iniurie prosecute it to the vttermoste and spare not I neuer entreated you to holde your peace The greatest iniurie that I acknowledge my selfe guiltie of is vnto the Colledge that I so long suffered you contrarie to your expresse othe to vsurpe a place therein to the great hinderaunce and disquieting thereof T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. What conscience is there that bindeth a man to depart from his liuing in that place where he liketh not of all the orders which are there vsed Is it not inough to abstayne from them if there be any euill in them or to declare the vnlawfulnesse of thē if his calling do suffer him when as the reformation is not in his power And if eyther of this absteyning or declaration of thys vnlawfulnesse of them troubles be moued there is no more cause why they should giue place than the other which like of those disorders yea there is lesse cause for that they are not the causes of trouble but the other and for that by their departure out of their places roome is made for those which will lyke of those disorders whiche the other misliked whiche is to the hurte of that companie or congregation in suche places Io. Whitgifte If he be sworne to kéepe those orders kéeping his liuing if as honest men as he is will lyke of them If his equals or rather betters might supply his place I thinke he ought rather to satisfie his othe or to refuse his liuing if he wyll auoyde periurie yea though there were no such méete persons to succéede him But if the case be this that a man shall directly sweare eyther to doe such a thing by such a tyme or to leaue his place if by that time he neyther do the thing by othe required nor leaue his place but still vsurpe the same at the least the space of fiue yeres I thinke he ought to be displaced for periurie whiche is a greater matter than eyther cappe or surplesse I doe but nowe put a case that men may vnderstande euery man that is displaced not to be displaced without great and vrgent occasion I woulde not enter into thys vayne if I were not vrged Therefore to answere in one worde for all I haue put no man out of his liuing but there is greater cause why he should be ashamed to cōplayne of iniurie than I to doe according to my othe and duetie T. C. Pag. 156. tovvards the ende And as for M. Doctors easinesse to depart from his liuing rather than he woulde cause any trouble he giueth men great cause to doubt of whiche hauing diuers great liuings and amongest them a benefice is very loth to goe from troubling of others to doe his duetie at any of them It is true that the Church of England may haue an order whervnto it may iustly require the subscription of the ministers in Englande And so is it likewyse vntrue that we desire that euery one shoulde haue his owne fansie and lyue as him listeth for we also desire an vniforme order but suche and in suche sorte as we haue before declared As for the olde accusation of Anabaptisme and confusion it is answered before therfore according to my promise I will leaue your words and if you haue any matter I will speake to that Io. Whitgifte This was obiected and answered before God knoweth my heart and I am ready to giue myne accompte when I am therevnto by order called orders you wyll admitte but suche as pleaseth you that is you will be in order if you maye doe what you liste ¶ Of subscribing to the Communion Booke Tract 21. Certayne generall faults wherewith the booke is charged by the Admonitors Chap. 1. the first Diuision The first article Fyrst that the booke commonly called the booke of common prayers for the Churche of Englande Of subscribing to the communion booke authorised by Parliament and all and euery contents therein be suche as are not repugnant to the worde of God Admonition Albeit right Honorable and dearely beloued we haue at all times borne with that whiche we could not amende in this booke and haue vsed the same in our ministerie so farre foorth as we might reuerencing those times and those persons in whiche and by whome it was first authorised beeing studious of peace and of the buylding vp of Christes church yet nowe beeing compelled by subscription to allowe the same and to confesse it not to be against the worde of God in any poynt but tollerable we must needes say as followeth that this booke is an vnperfect booke culled and picked out of the Popishe dunghill the Masse booke full of all abhominations for some and many of the contents therein be suche as are agaynst the worde of God as by his grace shall be proued vnto you And by the waye we can not but muche maruell at the crafcie wilinesse of those men whose parts it had beene first to haue proued eache and euery content therein to be agreable to the worde of God seeing that they forcemen by subscription to consent vnto it or else sende them packing from their callings Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag.
I would haue him vnderstand that we hold that the body must be honestly and comely buried and that it is meete that for that cause some reasonable number of those which be the friends and neighbours about should accompany the corps to the place of buriall we hold it also lawfull to lament the dead and if the dignitie of the person so require we thinke it not vnlawfull to vse some way about the buriall whereby that may appeare but yet so that there be a measure kept both in the weeping in the charges considering that where as immoderate eyther weeping or pompe was neuer no not in the time of the law allowed now in the time of the gospell all that is not lawfull whiche was permitted in the time of the law For vnto the people of God vnder the law weeping was by so much more permitted vnto them than vnto vs by how muche they had not so cleare a reuelation and playne sight of the resurrection as we haue whiche was the cause also why it was lawful for them to vse more cost in the embaulming of the dead therby to nourish and to help their hope touching the resurrection whereof we haue a greater pledge by the resurrection of our sauioure Christ than they had Io. Whitgifte Al this is néedelesse but that you are disposed to stretch out your volume Chap. 6. the. 2. Diuision Admonition The eleuenth They appoint a prescrip kind of serui e to bury the dead and that whiche is the duty of euery christian they tie alo e to the mini ter whereby rayer for the dead is maintayned and partly gathered out of some of the prayers where they pray that we with this our brother and all other departed in the true faythe of thy holy name may haue our perfect consummation and blisse both in body and soule We say nothing of the threefould peale bycause that it is rather licensed by iniunction than commaunded in the booke nor of their straunge mourning by changing their garments which if it be not hypocraticall yet it is superstitious and heatcrush bycause it is vsed only of custome nor of buriall Sermons whiche are put in pl ce of rentalls whereout spring many abuses and therefore in the best reformed Churches are remoued As for the superstitions vsed both in countrey and citie for the place of buriall which way they must lie how they mu t be fecched to Church the Minister meeting them at Church st le with surplesse with a company of greedy Clearks that a Crosse white or blacke must be set vpon the dead corps that breade must be giuen to the poore and offrings in buriall time vsed and cakes sent abroade to friends bycause these are rather vsed of custome and superstition than by the authoritie of the booke Small commaundement will serue for the accomplishing of such things But greate charge will hardly bring the least good thing to passe and therefore all is let alone and the people as blind and as ignorant as euer they were God be mercifull vnto vs. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 198. Sect. 1. It is true that we haue a prescript kind of seruice to bury the dead and that we appointe that office to the minister and what haue you in the whole scripture against this or whoeuer hath found fault with either of these two things I meane prescript seruice to bury the dead and the minister to execute that office but you alone or when was it euer heretofore reproued by any but euen by yourselues now of late T. C. Pag. 161. Lin. 5. Nowe for the things which the Admoni ion fyndeth fault with and thereof ingeth reason M. Doc er of his bare creditē without any reason or sc ipture or 〈◊〉 thing else 〈◊〉 them vnto 〈◊〉 and sayth they be good And this you shall marke to be M. Doctors simple shift through out his ooke that when he hath no coloure of scripture nor of reason no name nor title of Doctor then r make 〈◊〉 some thing ▪ he v rieth his affirmation by all the figures he c n as in saying 〈◊〉 that it is so and then in 〈◊〉 whether it be not so and after in asking whether there 〈◊〉 any 〈◊〉 man will thi ke hat it is not so s if he woulde make vs beleeue that he setteth vs diuers 〈◊〉 of mea es bycause he bringeth the same in diuers dishes For besides these reasons he hathe no reason either to pro e that it is meete to haue prescript forme of seruice for the dead or that the 〈◊〉 should be drawen to this charge Surely if the order be so good and conuenien it hathe met with a very barren trone whiche can saye nothing for it And although there be enough sayd by the Admonition yet bycause this bold and hardy peach is nough to leade the simpler a y and to make them thinke that M. Doctor hath a good cause therefore I will also say so thing of these rites of bur all Io. Whitgifte What one reason is there vsed in the Admonition what one word of scripture what authoriti of writer to improue a prescripte kinde of seruice to bury the dead and the minister to execute that office If there be any rehearse it if there be none why do you kéepe your old cu ome of speaking vntruly for as much therefore as they only say The dead b r d by the minister and with pra er in the 〈◊〉 Church it withoute proofe withoute reason without gr unde the thing being knowen so be good and godly and pra tised in the primitiue Church for we reade in Tertullian that the dead were wont to be buried by the ministers and with prayer and furthermore séeing it is established and allowed by the Church what shoulde I laboure by reason or authoritie to confirme that whiche cannot by any reason or authoritie be ouerthrowen Tertul. de Anima Wheresore I will only answer such bare assertions as M. Zuinglius answered An order receyued in the Church needeth no proof vntill by reason it be ouerthrowen Zuinglius ad ▪ Balt a. resp vpon the like occasiō one Balthasar an Anabaptist VVhilest you require scripture and reason you obtrude vnto other that whiche you oughte to performe your selues for you denie that this ought to be so shew therefore some expresse testimonie out of the scripture to confirme your opinion To this effect spea eth Zuinglius to Balthasar who without reason or scripture alleadged to the contrary required of Zuinglius the proofe of those thinges whiche without controle ent of any but Heretikes had continued in the Churche of long time and then also allowed in the time of the Gospell Euen so the receiued order established by this Church carieth with it authoritie and credite sufficient and néedeth not to be further by reason confirmed except it be first by reason ouerthrowen which bycause it is not per ourmed by the Admonition my affirmation is sufficient
reason against their deniall If this be M. Doctors simple shift throughout his booke I trust M. Doctor that would haue bin hath not omitted to note it where he may finde it seing his eye sight is so sharpe that he can imagine himselfe to espie it where no man else can find it But let words go Chap. 6. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 198. Sect. 2. You say that thereby prayer for the dead is mainteyned as may partly be gathered out of some of the prayers where we pray that we with this our brother and other departed in the true faith of thy holy name ▪ c. You know full well what out doctrine Prayer for the dead not mainteyned is concerning prayer for the dead and you ought not thus boldly to vtter a manifest vntruth for in so doing you do but be wray your sinister affection How proue you that a prescripte forme of seruice for burying the dead and the minister only to bury them doth mainteine prayer for the dead ▪ when you haue shewed your reason you shall hea e my answer In saying that these words gathered out of some of the prayers Pag. 199. 〈◊〉 1. 2. 3. that we with this our brother c. import prayer for the dead you do but quarrell E position of a prayer at Buriall when we say that we with Abraham Isaac and Iacob may reygne in thy kingdome do we pray for Abraham Isaac and Iacob or ather wish ourselues to be where they are In the like manner when we say that we with this our brother and all other departed in the true faith of thy holy name may haue our perfect consummation blisse both in body and soule we pray not for our brother and other that be departed in the true faith but we pray for ourselues that we may haue our perfect consummation and blisse as we are sure those shall haue which die in the true fayth Now weigh this reason there is a prescript forme of burying the dead and it is madea portion of the ministers office ther fore you will not subscribe to the communion booke T. C. Pag. 161. Sect. 1. And first o all as this almost is a generall fault in them all that they mainteine in the myndes of the ignorant the opinion of praying for the dead so is this also another generall faulte that these ceremonies are taken vp without any example eyther of the churches vnder the law or of the purest churches vnder the Gospell that is of the churches in the Apostles tymes For when the Scripture describeth the ceremonies or rites of buriall amongst the people of God so diligently that it maketh mention of the smallest things there is no doubt but the holy Ghost doth thereby shew vs a patterne wherevnto we should also frame our burialls And therefore for so muche as neyther the Church vnder the law nor vnder the Gospell when it was in the greatest puritie did euer vse any prescript forme of seruice in the buriall of their dead it could not be but daungerous to take vp any such custome and in the time of the law it was not only not vsed but vtterly for for bidden Leuit. 21. for when the law did forbid that the priest should not be at the buriall whiche ought to saye or conceiue the prayers there it is cleare that the Iewes might n t haue any suche prescripte forme and yet they had most neede of it for the causes of obscure knowledge and weaker fayth before alleadged Agayne by this meanes a new charge is layd vpon the minister and a taking him away from his necessary duties of feeding gouerning the flocke which being so greate as a maruellous dilig nce will scarsely ouercome ought not to be made greater by this being a thing so vnnecessary The Admonition dothe not say that the prayers whiche are sayd are for the dead but that they mainteyne an opinion of prayer for the dead in the heartes of the simple and that they declare mamanifestly enough when they say that it may be partly gathered c. Io. Whitgifte Your first reason to proue that there ought to be no prescripte forme of seruice to bury the The prescript forme of seruice mainteyneth not pr yer for the dea but 〈◊〉 dead and that the minister ought n t to execute that office is this It mainteyneth in the mindes of the ignorant an opinion of praying for the dead therefore there ought to be no prescripte forme of seruice to bury the dead neyther must the minister execute that office Undoubtedly this is a very ignorant argument if a man denie your antecedent howe will you proue it do you thinke the people whome you do so greatly in other places extoll to be so rude that they vnderstand not the English tongue Are they not able to discerne what it is to pray for the dead Surely I do not thinke any to be so simple that hearing the manner and forme of burying our dead can or will imagine that we pray for the dead And I verily beléeue that the ignorantest person in a whole countrey will deride the babishnesse of the argument The prescripte forme that is now vsed and the minister pronouncing the same wi ather perswade them to the contrary for where as in times past the minister vsed to say masse and dirige for the soules of the dead and sundry times moue standers by to pray for the dead at the time of buriall now doth he reade most wholesome scriptures declaring the myserie of the life of man the shortnesse of his dayes the happinesse of those that dye in the Lorde and the certeintie of the resurrection And who can hereof gather any prayer for the dead Your second reason is this these ceremonies that is a prescript forme of burying the dead c are taken vp without any example eyther of the Churches vnder the law or of the churches in the Apostles time c. therefore there may be no prescripte forme of seruice for burying the dead and the minister may not make it a péece of his office to bury them I denie this argument for it is negatiue from authoritie bycause you haue neyther warrant to say that there was no such order in the Apostles time neither if you had any such warrant doth it follow that it may not be so in our time séeing that in ceremonies and diuers other orders and externall thinges we are not bounde to the forme and manner of the Apostolicall Church And yet if I should say that in the Apostles time the minister vsed to bury the dead and ground my reason vpō the place of S. Augustine before alleadged quod vniuersa tenet ecclesia c. I know not what you would be able by any reason to say to the contrary Another argument you conclude thus It was forbidden in the lawe that the prieste should be at the buriall of the dead therefore the Iewes
had no suche prescript forme Be The replyer had rather conforme him selfe to the Iewes than o this church it so but will you driue vs to conforme our selues to the Iewes ceremonies do you thinke that touching the dead or being at burialls will now make the minister vncleane I vnderstand not to what end you should alleadge any such proofes vnlesse you would haue vs to retourne againe to Iudaisme This kind of reasoning from the ceremoniall law is not only of no force but also very dangerous as though Christians were bound to behaue themselues according to that law Surely it should séeme that you could rather consent to the bringing in of Iudaisme than to the Christian orders now appointed in the Church There might be and so there was a prescripte forme of burying the dead among the Iewes although the Priest was absent therfore if this kinde of reasoning from the examples of the Iewes were of any force yet cannot this your argument proue that there ought to be no prescripte forme to bury the dead In the fourth place you reason thus A new charge may not belayd vpon the minister nor The duetie of ministers not hindred by burying the dead he maye not be taken from his necessary duties of feeding and gouerning his flocke c. but by burying the dead a new charge is layd vpon him and he is taken from his necessary duties c. therefore the minister may not bury the dead Your Minor is false for it is no new charge laide vpon him is it not his duty to reade the scriptures to gyue thanks to pray and to exhort in the publike congregation doth he not féede when he so doth nay when is there a more apt time of féeding will you giue him time to be Pa. 49. Se. vlt absent from his flocke vpon his owne businesse as before you haue done and shal he haue no time to bury their dead Surely I cannot conceiue how this function of burying the dead should one iote hinder the minister f ō any one part of his dutie And I thinke these reasons of yours too weake to allure any man into your opinion or to plucke downe any thing that is already builded If you séeke for alteration you must vse pro ound and inuincible proofes for no wise man will be moued to a change without vrgent and especiall cause I passe ouer this and such like matters the more lightly bycause I take the lightnesse of your arguments to be such as of themselues they be a sufficient discredite to your cause and adde with such a be learned and not led by affection a greater strength and confirmation both to the doctrine and also to the gouernment of this Church of England Chap. 6. the. 4. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 199. Sect. 4. The threefolde peale mourning apparell buriall sermons the place of buriall which way they must lye how they must be fetched to the Church a crosse white or blacke set vpon the dead corps bread giuen to the poore offerings in buriall time vsed cakes sent abroade to friends you confesse not to be conteined within the booke and so you ease me of some laboure But yet of mourning apparell and auriall Of mourning pparell sermons giue me leaue to speake a little It is no good reason to say that bycause mourning apparell is only vsed of custome therefore it is superstitious and heathenishe many thinges be vsed of custome wh ch be neyther superstitious nor heathenish as to receiue the communion before dinner to celebrate the Lords day on the Sunday not on the Saterday to preach in pulpits and such like Mourning Mourning apparell auncient apparell is of greate antiquitie as you knowe and I thinke it is no matter of religion but of ciuilitie and order If any man put religion in it then no doubt it is superstitious T. C. Pag. 161. Sect. 2. For the mourning apparell the Admonition (*) Vntruth 〈◊〉 their word be playne sayth not simply it is euill bycause it is done of custome but proueth that it is hypocriticall oftentimes for that it proceedeth not from any sadnesse of mind whiche it dothe pretende but worne only of ustome there being vnder a mourning gowne oftentimes a merry hart And considering that where there is sorrow indeede for the dead there it is very hard for a man to keepe a measure that he do not lament too much we ought not to vse these meanes whereby we might be further prouoked to sorrow and so go a great way beyond the measure which the Apostle appointeth in mourning no more than it was well done of the Iewes in the Gospell to prouoke weeping and sorrow for their dead by some dolefull noyse or 1. Thes. 4. Math. 9. Iohn 11. sound of instrument or then it was lawfull for Mary Lazarus sister to go to hir brothers graue thereby to set the pri t of hir sorrow deeper in hir mind Seing therefore if there be no sorrow it is hypocriticall to pretend it and i there be ▪ it is very dangerous to prouoke it or to carry the notes of remembrance of it it appeareth that this vse of mourning apparell were much better layd away than kept And here M. Doctor th eapes alittle kindnesse of the authours of the Admonition and Cyp. 4. sermone de mortalitate Augus li. 2. de consolat mortuorum saith that they know it is very anncient whome before he denyeth to haue any knowledge of antiquitie Indeede it is very auncient but M. Doctor is afrayd to shew the a ciencie of it for Cyprian and Augustine inueigh vnhemently against it condemning it as vnlawfull and vndecent Io. Whitgifte The words of the Admonitiō be these Nor of their strange mourning by changing their garments which if it be not hypocriticall yet is it superstitious and heathenish bycause it is vsed only of custome Let the Reader now iudge whether the Admonition dothe conclude this apparell to be heathenish and superstitious only bycause it is vsed of custome or no. Truly in my simple iudgement their words be playner than that they can be excused Your reason of Hypocrisie is no more sufficient to condemne mourning apparell than it is to condemne any other ciuill and decent o der By the like reason I might improue your wearing of a turky gowne and a hat bycause that kind of apparel being a token of such persons as mislike the gowne and the square cap and pretende precisenesse aboue the rest is notwithstanding commonly worne of such as in other places than in London both weare and like the other and be precise neither in lyfe nor doctrine And what is it that I annot disproue if this be a sufficient argument to say some mē do abuse it or some men do hypocritically vse it Ergo it is not to be vsed Your other reason that it prouoketh more seruice for the dead than is conuenient if it were true that it so did
made with scraping the sée vpon the ground as it is vsed by them in derision so is it of it selfe ridiculeus and not worthie to be answered besides it is vntrue for it hindereth no more the worde béeing read than hawking and spitting bindereth the same being preached But Lorde how sparing are you of time that will not spare so much as may serue a man to bow his knée in Well it is but a pretence to helpe out with a merie argument for I dare say neyther they nor you are so vndiscrete as to vse it in good sadnesse Their second reason hash some more grauitie in it though not much more weight and your addition that it may breede a daungerous opinion of the inequalitie eyther of the Sanne of God with the other persons or of the Gospell with other Scriptures is but supposed and a man may suppose the Moone to be made of gréene chéese That gesture at the name of Iesus hath hitherto continued in the Church many hundred yeares and yet neuer any was heard tell of that fell into eyther of these opinions by the meanes thereof One reason that moued Christians in the beginning the rather to bow at the Why Christians bowed at the name of Iesus name of Iesus than at any other name of God was bicause this name was most hated and most contemned of the wicked Iewes and other persecutors of such as professed the name of Iesus for the other names of God they had in reuerence but this they could not abide wherefore the Christians to signifie their fayth in Iesus and theyr obedience vnto him and to confute by open gesture the wicked opinion of the Iewes and other infidels vsed to doe bodily reuerence at all tymes when they heard the name of Iesus but especially when the Gospell was read which conteyned that glad tydings of saluation which is procured vnto man by Christ Iesus wherevpon also he is called Iesus that is a Sauior Neyther can it be agaynst christianitie to shewe bodily reuerence when he is named by whom not onely all the spirituall enimies of mankinde are subdued but also the faythfull be made partakers of the kingdome of heauen Wherefore as I binde no man of necessitie to this reuerence at the name of Iesus so do I not iudge any man that hauing knowledge vseth the same for I will not holster and defende superstitious ignorance It must néedes be malicious dealing to charge the common order and booke of publike prayer with particular faults of priuate men and places If you knowe where these abuses be and will complaine of them either to the Archbishop or Bishop I dare say they will reforme them There is better reason why one Pastor may haue two benefices than one Curate serue in two cures for ministring of the Sacraments and reading publike prayers dayly doth require more bodily attendance than the preaching of the worde A man may better in one day preach at two Churches than he can at them both minister the Sacraments and celebrate publike prayers That Pastor that hath two benefices and two good Curates at them both may with much more facilitie do his dutie both towardes his Churches particularly and the whole Church generally Of Cathedrall Churches c. Tract 22. Admonition As for Organs and curi ns singing though they be proper to popish dennes I meane to Cathedrall Churches yet some others also must haue them The Queenes Chappell and these Churches must be paterns and presidents to the people of all superstitions Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 206. Sect. 1. Here it pleaseth you to call Cathedrall Churches Popish dennes As hap is your wordes are no slaunder But this bragge I will make of Cathedrall Churches and such as be nowe in them I will offer vnto you a dozen Cathedrall Churches in England which I my selfe do know the worst whereof in learning shall encounter with al Papistes Puritanes Anabaptists and what other sectes soeuer in Englande for the defense of religion now professed eyther by worde or wryting Without arrogancie be it spoken I thinke there was neuer time wherein these Churches were better furnished with wise learned and godly men than they be at this day I speake not this boastingly but to Gods glorie the honour of the Prince the comfort of the godly and the shame of slaunderous Papistes and disdainfull Schismatikes Your slaunderous speech of the Queenes Maiesties Chappell which you also say to be a patterne and president to the people of all superstitions is rather seuerely to be punished than with words to be confuted T. C. Page 163. tovvardes the ende Pag 164. Sect. 1. As for the speach of the cathedrall Churches either it is nothing or else it is false For if he say that there is eyther in all those cathedrall Churches one or in euerie of those 12. churches one which is able to confute Papists c. What great thing sayth he which sayth no more of all these Churches than is to be founde in one poore house of the vniuersitie whose rentes are scarce 300. pounde by yeare Yea what hath he sayde of them which was not to be founde in them euen in Queene Maries tyme when there was yet some one almost in euery Church which for feare dissembling was able notwithstanding to confute the Papists Anabaptists Puritanes And if he meane that in those twelue houses the worst of the Prebendaries are able to defende the truth agaynst all Papists c. all men do knowe the vntruth of it so that although this sentence be very doubtfully put forth yet howe so euer it be taken it is as M. Doctor hath rightly termed it a meere bragge And yet I doubt not and a well assured that there be diuerse godly learned men which haue liuings in those places but for all that they ceasse not therefore to be dennes of loyterers and idle persons whilst there are nourished there some which serue for no profitable vse in the Church theyr offices being such as bring no commoditie but rather hurt of which number certame are which the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page some other which hauing charges in other places vnder the colour of their Prebendes there absent themselues from them and that which they spoyle and rauen in other places there they spend and make good cheere with and therfore not without good cause called dennes Finally there being nothing there which might not be much better applyed and to the greater commoditie of the Church whilst they might be turned into Colledges where yong men might be brought vp in good learning and made fit for the serutce of the Church and common wealth the vniuersities being not able to receyue that number of schollers wherwith there neede may be supplyed And where M. D. sayth that that which is spoken of the Queenes maiesties chappell is worthie rather to be punished than confuted if so be that these be abuses the example of them in hir matesties
that can not he founde as belike it can not then must their antiquitie be very great Collegiate and Cathedrall Churches be all one for any thing that I can reade to the contrarie if it be not so shewe the difference The. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. But for so much as those auncient Collegiate churches were no more like vnto those whiche we haue now than things most vnlike our Cathedrall churches haue not so muche as this olde worne cloke of Antiquitie to hide their nakednesse to keepe out the shower For the Collegiate churches in times past were a Senate ecclesiastical stāding of godly learned ministers and elders which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in y e citie or towne where such churches were for that in such great cities townes commonly there were the most learned pastors auncients therfore the townes villages rounde about in harde difficuite causes came and had their resolutions of their doubtes at their handes euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteron e Deut. 17. that when there was any great matter in the countrie which the Le tes in matters perteyning to God and the iudges in matters perteyning to the common wealth could not discusse that then they should come to Hierusalem where there was a great number of Priests Le tes and learned iudges of whom they should haue their questions dissolued and this was the first vse of Collegiate churches Io. Whitgifte True it is that in times past there was in euery citie Collegium presbyterorum cui In euery citie a colledge of 〈◊〉 praeerat Episcopus a Colledge of ministers ouer whom the Bishop bare rule the which lerome calleth Senatum Ecclesiae the Senate of the churche and the same is now called a collegiate or Cathedrall churche It is also euident that these Presbyteri were all Priests that they with the Bishop had the deciding of al cōtrouersies in doctrine or ceremonies the directiō of diuers other matters in al those places that were vnder that citie that is in all that shyre or Diocesse therfore sayeth M. Caluine speaking Institut cap. 8. Sect. 52. of the primitiue church Euery citie had a colledge of Seniors which were Pastors Doctors for they all had the office of preaching to the people of exhorting and of correcting the which office S. Paule doth commit to Bishops and this is that Seigniorie wherof the auncient writers speake so much which you vntruly without consideration say to haue bene in euery parish and to consist as well of other as of Priests Ministers of the worde and although that kinde of gouernment which these churches had is transferred to the Ciuill Magistrate to whom it is due and to such as by him are appointed yet is it not so cleane blotted out as you would make vs beleeue For Our Cathedral churches not much differing from those of auncient time the Bishop who was then and is now the chiefe of that colledge or Church keepeth his authoritie still may if he please call to gither those ministers or Priestes of the Cathedrall Church to consult of such things as are expedient in diuers p tes he can do nothing without them Moreouer diuerse of the same churches some 〈◊〉 office and some appointed by election are bounde to attende vpon prouinciall 〈◊〉 so oft as the Archbishop at the cōmaundement of the Prince doth call the ame wise they be places wherein are nourished for the most parte the best the wise the learnedst men of the Clergie in the lande whiche not onely in the respect of their soundnesse in religiō profoundnesse in learning diligēce in preaching but wisedome also experience dexteritie in gouerning are not onely an ornament to the realme profitable to the Churche honour to the Prince but also a stay from barbarisme a bridle to sectes heresies a bulwarke agaynst confusion Wherefore as the vse of The hse of Cathedrall churches as necessarie now as afore 〈◊〉 them then for those times states was good and godly so is the vse of them now in this age and state no lesse conuenient godly and necessarie whiche you nor all your fautors shall euer be able to disproue The. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 164. In the ende Afterwarde the honor whiche the smaller Churches gaue vnto them in asking them councell ▪ they tooke vnto themselues and that whiche they had by the curtesy and good will proceding of a reuerent estimation of them they did not onely take vnto them of right but also dispossessed them of all authority of hearing and determining any matters at all And in the end they came to this which they are nowe which is a company that haue strange names and strange offices vnheard of of al the purer churches of whom the greatest good that we can hope of is that they do no harme For although there be diuerse which do good yet in respect that they be Deanes Prebendaries ▪ Canons Petycanons c. for my parte I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them Io. Whitgifte All this is vntrue and your owne enely imagination for these Churches haue not encreased theyr authoritie but diminished it rather as it is euident The names Tract 8. Ca. 2. and offices vsed in them I haue proued before in the title of Archbishops c. to be neyther straunge nor vnhearde of in the purer and auncient Churches And though you sée no profite that commeth to the Churche by them yet those that be quietly disposed in the Churche those that haue a care for the good gouernment of the Church those that haue not by any schisme deuided themselues from the Churche sée great profite and singular commoditie The. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 1. 2. And where he sayeth they are rewardes of learning in deede then they should be if they were conuerted vnto the maintenance and bringing vp of Schollers where now for the most parte they serue for fat morsels to fill if might be the greedy appetites of those which otherwise haue enough to liue with and for holes and dennes to keepe them in which eyther are vnworthie to be kepce at the charge of the churche or els whose presence is necessary and dutifull in other places and for the most part vnprofitable there Last of all whereas M. Doctor sayth that we haue not to follow other churches but rather other churches to follow vs I haue answered before this onely I adde that they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctrine but those whiche made the people of God beleeue that they were happie when they were not and that their estate was very good when it was corrupt Of the which kinde of false prophecie I say and Ieremy especially do complayne And therefore vnlesse M. Doctor amend his speach and leaue this crying peace peace all is well when there are so
agaynst ciuill offices in ecclesiasticall persons examined Chap. 2. the first Diuision T. C. Pag. 167. Sect. 1. Nowe that I haue shewed that the places quoted by the Admonition are for the most parte to the purpose of that they be quoted for I wil adde a reason or two to this purpose before I come to answere to those reasons which are brought by M. Doctor Here I must desire the Reader to remember which I sayde before when I spake agaynst non residencie the multitude difficultie of those things which are required of the minister of the word of God And withal I wil leaue to the consideration of euery one the great infirmitie and weaknesse which is in men both the which considerations set togither it will easily appeare howe vnmeete a thing it is that the minister shoulde haue any other charge layde vpon him seeing that it beeing so weightie an office as wyll require all the giftes he hath be they neuer so great it must needes fall out that so muche as he dothe man other calling so muche he leaueth vndone in this Io. Whitgifte The Reader may easily iudge howe fitly they were alleaged in that they néeded your commentarie to teache the application of them which otherwyse woulde haue asked some cunning to make them to serue the turne But as the places be vnfitly quoted by them so are they in déede as slenderly defended by you as may appeare in your Replyes and my Answeres Your first argumēt why ecclesiastical persons may not exercise ciuil offices is this The multitude and difficultie of those things whych are required of the minister are suche and the weaknesse and infirmitie of man so great that the minister can not execute any other offyces c. This had some likelyhoode in it if the minister should execute any office contrarie or repugnant to his ecclesiasticall function But séeing I haue before declared that such ciuill offices as be nowe committed to Bishops and other of the Cleargie be necessarie helpes to their other callings and moste profitable for the good and quiet gouernment of the Churche this argument of it selfe falleth to the grounde But why may you not as well reason thus the multitude and greatnesse of those things that are required of a Christian be suche and the infirmitie and frayltie of man so great that if he did nothing but giue him selfe to spirituall meditation and neuer meddle with worldly affayres he were not able to doe his full duetie therefore no Christian man may practise any suche thing or meddle in worldly and ciuill matters This argument is the roote of Anabaptisme Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 167. in the midst And what the hande of man is able to reache heerein it is to be considered in the Apostles whome if the office of the ministerie dyd so wholly occupie and set a worke that they could admitte no other charge with it yea and were fayne to cast of that whych they had it is cleare that none of those which lyue nowe can beside that function admit any other publike calling The story is knowne in the Acts that the Apostles euen during the tune that they kept togither at Ierusalem Act. 6. and taught the Churche there were fayne that they might the better attende vnto preaching and praying by which two thyngs S. Luke summarily setteth foorth the office of the ministerie to giue ouer the charge of prouiding for the poore vnto others bycause they were not able to do both Now for so much as the Apostles endued with suche giftes as none haue beene since or shall be hereafter could not discharge togither with the office of the minister that also of the Deacon howe shoulde any man be founde that togither with that office can discharge the office of a ciuill Magistrate And if the Apostles would not haue the office of a Deacon whiche was ecclesiasticall and therefore of the same kynde with the ministerie ioyned vnto it howe muche lesse wyll they suffer that the ministerie should be ioyned with a ciuill offyce and therefore of an other kynde For reason teacheth that there is an easier mingling of those whych are of one kynde than of those whiche are of dyuers kyndes Io. Whitgifte It is euident that the Apostles from the ascention of Christ into heauen vntill Why the Apo stles left of the Deaconship Caluine this time did execute both the office of the Apostles and the office of Deacons also Wherby it is manyfest that these offices may at sometimes méete togither in one and the selfe same person And M. Caluine vpon the. 6. of the Actes sayth That they dyd not altogither caste off this care for the poore sed leuationem quaesijsse vt suo muneri intenti esse possent but that they sought an easing thereof that they might be intentiue vnto their offyce The causes therfore that moued the Apostles to leaue off from executing the one that is the Deaconship is to be considered One cause was the great encrease of the number of Christians whiche was nowe growne to suche a multitude that the Apostles coulde not well both make prouision for the poore and gyue them selues also bothe to preaching and praying An other cause was the murmuring and grudging of the Gretians who thought that the Apostles had more regarde to prouide for their owne countrey men the Iewes than for the Erecians béeing straungers vnto them Wherefore the Apostles béeing willing to eschewe this grudging and repyning dyd for auoyding the suspition of partialitie will the whole multitude to choose them Deacons and both those causes be expressed in the beginning of the. 6. hapter of the Acts. The thirde cause was for that the Apostles knewe that they shoulde shortly be dispersed and that their office was to goe from place to place to plant Churches and preache the Gospell so that they coulde not nowe execute the office of Deacons as they dyd whilest they remayned togither This beeing so as it can not be denied there can be no likely argument gathered of this place that ecclesiasticall persons may not haue some kinde of ciuill functions And if a man well consider howe busie and troublesome an office the Deaconship was at that tyme the Churche béeing in persecution and the number of poore great he shall easily perceyue that there is no comparison betwixt the troublesomnesse of that office then and the ciuill offices nowe committed to ecclesiastical persons which be so farre from hindering their ecclesiasticall functions that they worke the cleane contrarie effect And yet it is certayne that the Apostle S. Paule and Titus with Luke or as some thinke Barnabas did togither with the office of preaching make collections for the poore 2. Corinth 8. Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 167. somvvhat tovvards the ende Agayne how can we iustly reproue the Papistes for the vse of bothe the swords spirituall an materiall when as we are founde in the same faulte our selues And surely
their ministerie and those thyngs whych the worde of God doth necessarily put vpon them least the strength of theyr mynde and of theyr body beeyng distracted vnto many things they shoulde be the lesse able to accomplishe their ministerie vnto the full Which may also partly appeare by that whych I haue alleaged out of Cyprian whyche wyll not permit them so much as to be executors of a Testament And in the. 80. Canon of those which are ascribed vnto the Apostles it is enioyned that they should not entangle themselues with worldly offices but attende vpon their ecclesiasticall affayres Io. Whitgifte If you compare the state of the Churche before the time of Christian Kings with the state of it vnder Christian Kings you make an vnequall comparison For howe coulde ecclesiasticall persons enioy any ciuill function when there was no ciuil Magistrate christian to commit the same vnto them How could by this meanes the gouernment of the Church be thought to be helped by the Ciuill Magistrate when as it had no greater enimies than ciuill Magistrates who sought by all meanes to suppresse and destroy it but nowe to your reasons To yprians authoritie I haue answered before The Canons of the Apostles haue nowe béene alleaged by you at the least 4. or 5. times and yet is not their credite and authoritie so firme But that Canon meaneth onely suche worldely causes as be impedimentes to their vocation and I haue tolde you often that ciuill functions be necessarie helpes to the dooing and ful accomplishing of their ecclesiasticall office I haue expressed in my Answere to the Admonition what worldly affayres a minister of the word may not intangle him selfe with Chap. seconde the. 8. diuision T. C. Pag. 168. Sect. vlt. Further in the * councell of Calcedon it was decreed that none of the clearkes cleargie Tom. 1. can 3. as it termeth them should receyue any charge of those which are vnder age vnlesse they were such as the lawes dyd necessarily cast vpon him which it calleth inexcusable charges meaning by all likelihoode the wardship of his brothers children or some such thing Where is also declared the cause of that decree to haue bin for that there were certayne ministers which were Stewards to noble men And 〈◊〉 the. 7. canon of the same councell it is decreed that none of the cleargy shoulde eyther goe to warfare as souldiours or captaynes or should receyue any secular honors and if they dyd they should be excommunicated or accursed Io. Whitgifte The words of the thirde Canon be these Relation is made vnto this holy Synode Con. Calced can 3. that certayn amongst the cleargie for filthie lucers sake hyer other mens possessions take vpon them the causes of secular businesse and through slouthfulnesse separate themselues frō diuine functions and runne to the houses of secular persons for couetousnesse take vpon thē the gouernment of their substance therfore this holy vniuersall great Synode hath decreed that none of these hereafter that is Bishop or Clearke or Monke shall hyer possessions or intermeddle with secular possessions except those that by lawe are dryuen to take the tuition and care of suche as be vnder age or those to whome the Bishop of the Citie hathe committed the gouernment of ecclesiasticall things and of Orphanes and widowes which are without succour or of such persons which neede the helpe of the Church for the feare of God c. This Canon conteyneth nothing contrarie to my assertion the words of the Canon be playne I shall not néede to vse any exposition of it Onely I would haue the Reader marke the weight of your argument which is this The Councell of Chalcedon sayeth that Clerkes may not for filthy lucres sake hyre other mennes possessions or take vpon them for couetousnesse sake the gouernment of other mennes possessions c. therefore there may be no ciuill office committed vnto them I will aske no better cōmentaries to the Canon of the Apostles before alledged or any other suche like than this very Canon of the Councell of Chalcedon To what purpose do you alledge the. 7. Canon of that Councell did you euer heare me say that I would haue a minister to be a Souldier or a captaine in warre or enioy any such secular honor or offices wherefore you lacke probation when you are constrayned to vse this ¶ The reasons vsed in the Answere iustified Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Lin. 4. Sect. 1. 2. Now I come to M. Doctors arguments which he bringeth to establish this disorder And first he sayth ministers of the worde may not occupie themselues in worldly businesse as to be marchants husbandmen craftes men and such like but they may exercise ciuil offices Wher first of all I perceyue M. Doctor is of this mynde that the order of God is not to be broken for small gayne or when a man must take great toyle of the bodie to breake it but if it may be broken with getting of honor and doing of those things which may be done without toyle and with great commendation then it is lawfull to breake it In deede so the Poet but in the person of an vniust and ambitious man sayde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is If a man muste do vniustiy he must do it to beare rule Secondarily I do see that M. Doctor will not be shackled and hindred from his ministerie by a payre of yron fetters but if he can get a payre of golden fetters he is contented to be hampered and entangled from doing the office of ministerie committed vnto him For vnlesse these should be the causes which should moue him to take the one and refuse the other verily I see none Io. Whitgifte This is to deride not to answere M Bucer writing vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. Bucer rehearsing such worldly businesse as withdrawe the minister from his function and therefore be not meete for him to exercise sayth thus Such businesse as warfare market affayres marchandise hucksters craft the ouersight of Innes Tauerns and bathes to exercise vnliberall craftes as to digge mettals and stones to burne lyme to carie sande to be schauengers and such like You haue not yet proued that Gods order is broken if the ciuill offices which I speake of be committed to Ecclesiasticall persons Your iesting tauntes I leaue to those that professe that cunning Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 2. For whereas he sayth it is a helpe and maynteyneth religion in deede that is the reason of the Lib. 4. cap. 11. Papistes which M. Caluin confuteth in his institution And although it be good and necessary to punish vice and iniquitie by corporall punishmentes and by ciuill corrections yet it doth no more followe that that should be done by the ministers than it followeth that for that preachyng and ministring the Sacramentes and excommunication are good and necessarie therfore the same is fitte to be executed
the state as they do then truly haue they to consider of such disturbers of the peace of the Church and according to their office and duty prouide a conueniente remedy for them knowing that it is the extreame refuge of Satan when by other meanes he cannot then to séeke the ouerthrow of the Gospell thorow contention about externall things The Epist. of T. C. Sect. II. An other exception against the fauorers of this cause is taken for that they propounde it out of time which is that the Jewes said that the time was not yet come to builde the Lords house but it is knowne what the Prophet answered And if no time wer vnseasonable in that kind of material building wherin there be some times as of sommer more opportune and fit than others how can there be any vntimely building in this spiritual house where as long as it is called to day men are commanded to further this worke And as for those which say we come to late that this shoulde haue bin done in the beginning and can not now be done without the ouerthrow of all for mending of a peece they do little consider that S. Paule compareth that which is good in the buylding vnto golde and siluer and precious stones and that whiche is euill layde vpon the foundation vnto stubble and hey and woode Likewise therfore as the stubble the hey the wood be easily by the fyre consumed without any losse vnto the gold or siluer or precious stones so the corrupt thynges in this buylding may be easily taken away without any hurt or hinderaunce vnto that whiche is pure and sounde And if they put such confidence in this similitude as that they will therby without any testimonie of the worde of God stay the further buylding or correcting the faultes of the house of the Lorde which by his manifest commaundement ought to be done with all spede then besides that they be verie vncunning buylders which can not mende the faults without ouerthrowe of al especially when as the fault is not in the foundation they must remember that as the mean which is vsed to gather the children of God is called a building so it is called a planting And therfore as dead twigs riotous or superfluous branches or what soeuer hindereth the growth of the vine tree may be cut of without rooting vp the vine so the vnprofitable things of the Church may be taken away without any ouerthrow of those things which are wel established And seeing that Christ and Beliall can not agree it is strange that the pure doctrine of the one and the corruptions of the other should cleaue so fast together that pure doctrine can not be with hir safetie seuered from the corruptions when as they are rather lyke vnto that parte of Daniels image which was compounded of claye and iron and therfore coulde not cleaue or sticke one with an other Io. Whitgifte They did not only propound it out of time after the Parliament was ended but out of order also that is in the maner of a libell with false allegations and applications of the Scriptures opprobrious speaches and slaunders not to reforme but to deforme the Church and to confound al. The rest in this part is Petitio principij the petition of the principle for you take that as confessed true which will not be graunted vnto you as shall more at large hereafter appeare The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 12. It is further sayd that the setters forward of this cause are contentious and in mouing questions giue occasion to the Papistes of staundering the religion and to the weake of offence But if it be founde to be both true which is propounded and a thing necessarie about whiche we contende then hath this accusation no ground to stand en For peace is commended to vs with these conditions if it be possible if it lye in vs. Now it is not possible it lyeth not in vs to conceale the Rom. 1 ▪ Cor. 10. truth we can doe nothing against it but for it It is a prophane saying of a prophane man that an vniust peace is better than a iust warre It is a diuine saying of an heathen man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is good to contend for good things The Papistes haue no matter of reioycing seyng they haue greater sharper controuersies at home and seing this tendeth both to the further opening of theyr shame and thrustyng out of their remnants whych yet remayne among vs. The weake may not be offended consyderyng that euen in the Church of God and among those of the Churche there hathe bene as greate varieties of iudgementes as these are For what weightier controuersies can there be than whether wee shall ryse agayne or no These were offences but woe to the authors whether circumcision were necessarye to be obserued of those whych beleeued And yet the fyrste was amongest the Churche of the Corinthes the other was fyrst in Hierusalem and Antioche and after in the Churches of Galatia and yet they the Churches and that the true religion whyche was there professed Io. Whitgifte It is very true and sufficiently proued in that Answere to the Admonition that the authours thereof bée contentidus and giue occasion to the Papistes of staundering the religion professed and to the weake of offence For whosoeuer troubleth the peace of the Churche or deuide themselues from the Churche for externall thinges they be contentious but these men doe so therefore they be contentious the maior proposition is grounded vppon the woordes of Saincte Paule 1. Corinth 8. 9. and. 10. but especiallye vppon these woordes of the. 11. Chapter If anye bee contentious we haue no suche custome neyther the Churches of God Whereas he purposely speaketh of such as be contentious for externall matters wherevpon that is grounded that Bullinger saith That those be contentious which trouble and deuide the Bulling church for externall things And that also whiche Zuinglius in his book de baptismo speaking of contentious Anabaptistes writeth They goe about innouations of their owne priuate authoritie in those Churches where the Gospell is truly taught and that in externall Zuinglius de baptis things And in his Ecclesiastes he calleth them authours of contentions and troublers of the church which striue about externall matters And surely this is an euident token that Zuingl in ecclesiast the accusation is true bicause they and their companions for the mosre parte make contention wheresoeuer they come and especially in those places where the Gospell hath with most diligence bin taught as experiēce sufficiently proueth Furthermore the time and maner of publishing their pamphlets argueth y e same most euidently The truth and necessitie of those things for the which they contend rest as yet in triall Surely if they be matters necessarie to saluation then is there some iust cause of breking the peace of the Church for them but if they be matters of
cap. 5. sayth That it was the office of Pastors and Doctors generally Beza to dispense the worde and to pray vnder the whiche also we comprehend the administration of sacraments and the celebration of mariage according to the cōtinuall custome of the Church although deacons in these things oftentimes supplied the office of pastors And to proue this he quoteth 1. Cor. 1. verse 14. 15. c. and Ioh. 4. verse 2. So doe other learned men in like maner who also bring for their purpose that which is written Tim. 5. Qui bene praesunt presbyteri c. So that you may vnderstande that learned men be of this iudgement that some may be admitted to administer the sacraments which are not admitted to preache I knowe it to be true that there may be some appoynted to reade in the Churche whiche be not admitted eyther to preache or to administer the Sacramentes For so it was in the primitiue Churche as it is to be séene in auncient stories and wr ters But bicause you would haue nothing vsed in the Churche especially no office appoynted withoute a commaundement in the worde of GOD I praye you tell where you haue eyther commaundemente or example for suche kinde of Readers I doe but demaunde this that the Reader maye vnderstande what libertie you chalenge vnto your selfe of allowing and disalowing what you list and when you list without that warrant of Gods worde to the whiche you so streightly hinde all other Chap. 1. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Page 104. Sect. 4. Besyd s that how can they say that it is for want of sufficient ministers when as there be put out of the ministerie men that be able to serue God in that calling and those put in their roomes which are not able when there are numbers also which are fit to serue and neuer sought for nor once required to take any ministerie vpon them If therfore it were lawfull to pleade want of able ministers for this do be ministerie which is altogither vnlawfull yet would this plea neuer be good vntyll suche tyme as bothe those were restored whiche are put out and all other soughte oorth and called vpon which are fitte for that purpose Io. Whitgifte You know what was before alleaged out of the confession of the Churches of Helvetia that the harmlesse simplicitie of some shepheards in the olde Church did sometimes Confes. Heli more profite the Church than the great exquisite or fine or delicate but a little too proude learning of some others A great sorte thinke too well of themselues be of nature vnquiet Unquiet natures must be remoued suche of necessitie if by no meanes they can be kept in order must be remoued for the Church may not for their sake be rent torne in péeces neyther muste you that so wel allow of discipline burden other men with it cast it off your selues There is none in this Churche of Englande remoued from his ministerie but vpon iust causes and ministers must be subiect to lawes and orders Those that be willing to come into the ministerie lacke no prouoking nor mouing The ministerie hindred by whome thervnto if they be knowne but it is you your company which labour by all meanes possible to dehorte men from the ministerie persuading them that the calling is not ordinary and lawfull And surely your meaning is to make this Church destitute of ministers that it may of necessitie be driuen to admit your platforme and gouernment But you shall neuer be able to bring it to passe the more you labour the more you are detected And those wise men that séeke the truthe in sinceritie of conscience will espie your purposes dayly more and more and be moued to a iuste mis iking of them The restitution of those that be put out of the ministerie I think is soone obteyned if they will submit themselues to the order of the Church which they ought of duetie to doe bothe the lawes of God and man requiring the same Chap. 1. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. vlt. Agayne it can not be sayd iustly that they haue taken these reading ministers vntil such tyme as better may be gotten for if the Churche could procure able ministers shoulde desire that they myght be ordeyned ouer them they can not obteyne that considering that these reading ministers haue a free holde and an estate for terme of their lyues in those Churches of the whyche they are suche ministers so that by this meanes the sheepe are not onely committed to an Idoll shepheard I might say a wolfe and speake no otherwyse than Augustine speaketh in that a not preachyng minister hath entraunce into the Church but the doore also is shut vpon hym and sparred agaynst any able minister that might happily be founde out Io. Whitgifte And would you so gladly intrude your selues into some of their roomes surely I beléeue it it is not vnknowē but that some of you haue labored to do it Wel I hau before tolde you the iudgement of the reformed Churches touching such ministers as be not able to preach béeing otherwise vertuous and godly I haue also set downe the opinion of diuers learned and godly men concerning ministers admitted to minister the sacraments whiche notwithstanding can not preache If any man vse him sel e in his ministerie leau ly or otherwise than beseemeth him hys estate for terme of lyfe is not so sure but that he maye be dispossessed of the same Otherwyse if he vse him selfe honestly and as it becommeth him thoughe he haue not the gifte of preaching whiche notwithstanding is to be wyshed God forbid that eyther you or any man else shoulde seeke to displace him that you might enioy the roome your selues And surely if the minister were but tenant at will or of Courtesie as you would séeme to haue him his state shoulde be moste slauishe and mis rable and he and his family ready to goe a begging when soeuer he displeaseth his parishe If you had tolde me where Augustine speaketh that I shoulde haue quickely let you vnderstand his meaning but his bookes be many large the sentēce you alleage shorte and therefore it were to muche for me to search it out Moreouer it improueth nothing nowe in question But with what face can you loute and iest at me for once or twice not quoting the chapter or leafe your selfe so often offending in quoting neyther chapter leafe booke nor tome Chap. 1. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Page 105. Sect. 1. There is a third fault which likewise appeareth almost in y e whole body of this seruice Lyturgie of Englād that is that the pro ite which might haue come by it vnto the people is not reaped whereof the cause is for that he whiche readeth is not in some place hearde and in the moste places not vnderstanded of the people throughe the distance of place betweene the people and the minister so
that a great parte of the people can not of knowledge tell whether he hath cursed them or blessed them whether he hath read in Latme or in Englishe all the whyche ryseth vpon the word s of ▪ the booke of seruice which are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place for therevpon the minister in saying Morning and Euening prayer sytteth in the Chauncel with hys backe to the people as thoughe he had some secret talke with God whych the people might not heare And herevpon it is likewise that after Morning prayer for saying another nūber of prayers he clymeth vp to the further end of the Chauncel runneth as farre from the people as the wall wyl let hym as though there were some variance betweene the people the minister or as though he were afrayde of some infection of plague in deede it renueth y e memorie of the Leuitical priesthoode which dyd withdrawe him selfe from the people into the place called the holyest place where he talked wyth God and offered for the sinns of the people Io. Whitgifte This nothing toucheth the order or substance of the booke and therefore no sufficient reason agaynst it if it were true But you héerein deale as you haue done in other matters that is corruptly and vntruely For you do not reporte the wordes of Corrupt dealing the booke concerning this matter as they be in déede and it is wonderfull and argueth great impadencie that you are not ashamed to reporte vntruely in so publike a cause The words of the booke be these The Morning and Euening prayer shall be vsed in the accustomed place of the Church Chappell or Chauncell excepte it shall be otherwise determined by the Ordinarie of the place And you leauing out all the rest say that the words of the booke of seruice are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place as though it bounde him of necessitie to the Chauncell which is nothing so But you Errours and isorder maynteyned by falsifying must be borne with your errours and disorders can not otherwise be maynteyned but by falsifying I thinke there are but fewe Churches in Englande where the Bi shops haue not taken a very good order for the place of prayer if any Bishop haue neglected it the fault is in the Bishop not in the booke But still I must desire the Reader to note the weightinesse of the reasons where by you goe about to deface the booke of common prayer Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 2. Likewyse or marriage he commeth backe agayne into the body of the Churche and for baptisme vnto the Churche doore what comelynesse what decencie what edifying is thys Decencie I saye in running and trudging from place to place edifying in standing in that place and a ter that sorte where he can worst be hearde and vnderstanded S. Luke sheweth that in the 〈◊〉 Churche bothe the prayers and preachings and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwyse For he sheweth howe S. Peter sytting amongest the rest to the ende he myghte be the better heard rose and not that onely but that he stoode in the middest of the people that hys voyce mighte as muche as mighte be come indifferently to all theyr ear s and so standing bothe 〈◊〉 and preached Nowe if it be sayde for the Chapters and Letanie there is commaundement giuen th t they should be read in the body of the Church in deede it is true and thereof is easily perceyued thys disorder which is in saying the rest of the prayers partly in the hither end partly in y e urther end of the Chauncel for eeing that those are read in the body of the Church that the people may both heare vnderst nd what is read what should be the cause why the rest should be read further of Unlesse it be that eyther those thyngs are not to be hearde of them or at the least not so necessarie for them to be heard as the other whych are recited in the body or middest of the Churche And if it be further sayde that the booke leaueth that to the discretion of the Ordinarie and that he may reforme it if there be any thyng amisse then it is easily answered agayne that besides that it is agaynst reason that the commoditie and edifying of the Churche should depende vpon the pleasure of one man so that vpon hys eyther good or euill aduyse discretion it should be well or euill with the Church Besydes thys I sa we s e by experience of the disorders which ar in many Churches and Dioceses in thys behalfe howe that if it were lawfull to commit such authoritie vnto one man yet that it is not safe so to doe considering that they haue so euill q tten them selues in their charges and that in a matter the inconuenience whereof is so easily seene and so easily reformed there is notwithstanding so great and so generall an abuse Io. Whitgifte These be passing weyghtie arguments to ouerthrowe the booke and come from a Weighty reasons agaynst the booke déepe and profounde iudgemente If I shoulde vse the lyke you woulde wype them away with scoffing The booke appoynteth that the persons to be married shall come into the body of the Churche with their f iendes and neighbours there to be married and what faulte can you finde in this Is not the middest of the Churche the moste méete place for suche a matter The booke speaketh neyther of the comming backe of the minister nor his going forwarde these be but your iestes and yet muste he goe both backwarde and forwarde if he wil eyther come into the Church or go out of it For baptisme y e booke appoynteth no place but bicause there is no iust cause knowne why the fon e should be remoued therefore the minister dothe stande where that is placed whiche is somewhere in one place somewhere in another for I know diuers plac s where it is in the middest of the Churche some place where it is in the nethermost parte I knowe no place where it standeth at the Churche doore And therfore in saying that for baptisme the minister goeth to the Churche doore you doe but counterfeyte No man denieth but that bothe praying and preaching c. ought to be in that place where it may be best heard of all and therefore the booke dothe prudently leaue it to the discretion of the Bishop But the middest is not the fittest place for that purpose He that standeth in the middest of the Churche hathe some behynde him some before him and some of eche syde of him those whiche be behinde or on the sides can not so well heare as those that be before as experience teacheth in Sermons at the Spittle at the Crosse in Paules and other places Wherefore in my opinion that place in the Churche is moste fittest bothe for praying and preaching where the minister may haue the people before him except the