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A00276 A dialogue betweene a vertuous gentleman and a popish priest [ ... ]pleasaunt and profitable, both for ministers and gentlemen, men and vvomen, old and yong, made by I.B. I. B., fl. 1581. 1581 (1581) STC 1039; ESTC S120239 70,214 160

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flocke but seldeine yet that wil doe them much good for I praie you let me aske you this question if one of them hauing 2. benefices in both which hee cannot at one time be resident if hee spend halfe in another is it not almoste as good as if hee were alwayes at one of them Gen. This difference there is that where as the careful minister being alwaies resident to defend his sheepe from their enemie the diuell which doth continually watche for spoil being ready to deuour them maye stande them in as good steede as a strong defence against al the assaultes of Satan so such a one as you speake of that is a long time from them may haue in his absence his flocke scattered and so hee himselfe bee found a negligent shepheard Par. But he may so applie them at his being amongst them that they shal be able to spare him a while without any danger Gen. Truely M. Parson I can tel you the diuel is a subtil byrd and the shepheard shall no sooner bee from his flocke but hee wil be amongst them and if the minister haue two benefices when hee is at one the diuell will be at another so that you maye now see howe needefull it is for the Pastor to be alwaies amongst his flocke since Satan is so greedie to worke them their vtter destruction Par. But if all this that I haue tolde you will not suffice yet if the worst fal out they that haue so many liuinges that they cannot be at them al at one time maye in their absence place honest ministers that may supplie their rooure almost as well as themselues Gen. What doe you meane that others shal feede an they will sheere that they shal haue the hier and others do the work that they shall but beare the name of Pastors and liue by the sweate of other mens browes is this that you meane by others supplying of the roome Par. Truely my meaning is that in the absence of the pastors he shoulde place one amongst his flocke that may keepe them in order Gen. What woulde you that he shoulde onely receiue the fruites for him and take vp his tithes an shere his sheepe in due time and by that meanes keep them in order Par. I meane that there shoulde bee an honest man set ouer them that may seede as well as shere Gen. And who shall haue the fleese mean you Par. It is reason that the Parson of the parishe haue the fruites of his benefice although he be not alwaies resident and the minister that doth supplie his roome maie haue some reasonable matter according as he doth deserue Gen. Then he must haue all for I haue shewed you out of the Scripture that the * Luk. 10.7 laborer is worthie of his hire but he that wil not labor * 1. Tim. 5.18 2. The. 3.10 should not eate Par. Although you haue scripture that doth make for your purpose yet there are verie good reasons for the which a minister may verie well and for good consideration be absent Gen. Haue you so good reason for it M. Parson I knowe there is no reason that is contrary to the scripture for althoughe you dreame of reason and thinke to prefer your owne deuises before the word of God yet what euer you saie touching these matters although it séeme neuer so reasonable if it agree not with the worde of God it is altogether without reason but I prate you what are your reasons that you thinke 〈◊〉 good Par. For this cause I thinke a minister maie verie well be absent from his flocke as if he bee but a young scholler and is like to profit by being in the vniuersitie a while whereby he maie be able for euer after the better to discharge his duetie maie hee not for so good a consideration for a while bee a non resident Gen. Did you neuer heare this prooued master Parson that many times whiles the grasse groweth the horse starueth so no doubt of it is it with such a minister that is yet to learne and hath taken vpon him the office of a teacher while hee is in the vninersitie fraighting of himself with learning to bring home to his flocke manie a sillie sheepe doth in the meane time perishe for lacke of knowledge this did saint Paule verie well know and therefore hee woulde haue a minister not to be * 1. Time 3.6 a young scholler but such a one as is * ver 10. alreadie able to take care of his charge and * 2. Time 2.24 apt to teach before he take so waightie a matter in hand Par. Then if it be so that hee must first be a good scholler and able to teache before he take on him the ministerie there is good reason that hee shoulde vse the meanes that he may continue his knowledge and therfore hee maie lawfullie be alowed two or three benefices that he may furnish him selfe like a scholler and prouide him books without the which he cannot studie Gen. Why are they nowe so deare that they must sell soules to buy bookes you doe not see howe you ouershoote your selfe in your talke master Parson for you thinke it no matter though many soules goe to the diuell so that one mans study may be well furnished Par. I know there be some that coulde answere you for these matters if they were here and prooue that they maye lawfully haue more benefices then you are willing that they should for ther are some that are very good schollers and knowe what they doe and yet they are not amongst their parishioners skarse once in halfe a yere therfore I am fully persiwaded that euen the very name of a preacher if it bee nothing els although be neuer almost come amongest his flocke will doe some good doe you not thinke so Gen. I thinke the name of a Preacher onely will doe the people so much good as the smell of a messe of pottage to a hungrie bodye or an empty potte to a thirstie soule which is no good at all but doth cause him to languish in vaine with an earnest desire to haue that which hee can not obteine If this be al that you can say master Parson I perceiue you want skill to defende so bad a cause yea and so doe they that thinke them selues beste able to say moste in the matter and vnder that pretence of a loue to the people for lucres sake they seeke the destruction of them selues and suche as are their charge they feed onely themselues and are such as the prophet Ezechiel cryed woe vnto * Ezech. 34.3 they eate vp the fat sayth hee and cloth them with the wooll the best fed do they slay but the sheep they do not feed the weake they haue not strengthened the sicke they haue not healed the broken they haue not bound togeather the driuen away they haue not brought againe the lost they haue not sought but with force and cruelty
world to come and that this world may not deceiue you consider it as it is and think no better of it thē it doth deserue loue it no dearer then you would your enemie for the Apostle saith * 1. Iohn 2.15 if we loue the world or the things in the world the loue of God is not in vs and if you wil say you * Ioh. 14.2.4 loue God and keepe not his commandementes you will prooue your selfe a liar there is no truth in you Know therfore the this world is vaine and al worldlie things are vanitie the righteousnes is perfect blessednes and to know God in truth is the cheefest felicitie and to put away confidence in man or any worldly helpe is to trust to a broken staffe which in th ende will deceiue you thinke no fréedome so to be desired as the seruice of God to know that better it is for you to be Christs Chaplin without a benefice then to haue all the liuinges in the worlde and bee out of his seruice and thinke it not inough to depart with one benefice and keepe two in your hand but if you may be vnburdened of that which you cannot discharge and haue pardon for your former sinnes committed say you are well vsed and finne no more and Christe teacheth vs that he that wil be his disciple * Mat. 16.2 must deny himselfe and take vp his crosse and follow him Now if I should counsel you to keepe any thing that might hurt you or hinder Gods glory I shoulde go beyond my commission and commit sin with you therefore to tel you the troth because you are an vnpreaching Prelate and vnmeet for that office I would wish you to giue ouer the function you haue no skill-of and leaue al your benefices as things that perteine not vnto you Let not so many soules perishe through one mans negligence but haue a care of your selfe as well as of them flatter not your selfe any longer least you your flock perish togeather let suche haue your roome that can teache them better and let such shere the sheepe as can feede the flocke that you may saue your selfe and thē let not worldly perswasions worke you destruction but let such flatterers goe for lyers that will tell you you are vnwise if you so doe you shall loose your credite you friends wil faile you no man wil regard you let these and such like tales goe for chaffe that is blowne awaye with the winde and whose substaunce will soone haue an ende for if the Lorde will be serued and his iudgement executed for so great a sinne al the world cannot pay your ransome neither shall any man be able to set you free Therfore in this matter deale wisely for your selfe for it is your selfe that shall stand to the stake for the whole depart with this vngodly promotion which this wicked worlde hath brought you and you shall haue treasure in heauen and because it is so that you are not able to take vppon you the charge of soules withoute the destruction of your selfe and them discharge your selfe quite of so great a daunger and keepe not a benefice for feare of displeasure Par. What wil you not haue me keepe one benefice then you deale more hardly with mee then I thought you woulde but there shal be no more adoe of the matter I will kepe my selfe as I am and therefore in vsing these perswasions you doe but loose your labour the charge is mine and I onely shall auswere for it therefore I woulde wish you to looke to your selfe and take no farther care for me Gen. What are you nowe come to this passe and is this the thanke that for my good will I shall receiue I was in good hope when you were once running you would not haue staied before you had come to the goale but oh howe true is that saying nowe fulfilled in you which was spoken so long agone that * 2. Pet. 2 2● the dogge is turned to his old vomite againe the sow that was washed to her wallowing in that mire Oh couetousnes couetousnes howe well may it be called the roote * 1 Tim. 10.6 of all euil that sendeth so many soules headlong to the diuel Par. What you are farre deceiued gentleman do you thinke that couetousnes is in mee no I abhorre it with al my heart and loue of monie is farre from me Gen. What are you not couetous I pray you what did then moue you to take 3. benefices when as one of them is liuing sufficient for you Par. I perceiue you knowe not what you say for I tel you troth I can not liue with one benefice Gen. No I praye you what is one of your benefices that doth yeelde you leaste worth you by the yeere Par. I thinke it bee woorth me a fortie or fifie pounds Gen. And I pray you what do you giue vnto your Curate by the yeare that doeth serue your benefice Par. I giue him ten pound by the yere Gen. And why can you not liue with fourty or fiftie pounds by the year as well as your Curate that hath but ten pounde by the yeare Par. I see well Gentleman you take all things at the worst but I will tell you and not lye vnto you wherfore one benefice would not content mee and so small a liuing will not satisfie me I did consider my calling how that I was a gentleman and therefore I thought it not ynough for mee to liue as the common sorte doe which are but plaine fellowes of the country and I knew no way how to make any difference but onlie by procuring my self such liuings as might mainteine me like a gentleman and being once a minister you knowe it is not lawful to possesse other liuinges then such as belong to the ministerie and therefore I had no way to make vp the matter or bring my purpose to passe but onelye by hauing two or thrée benefices and now you see the worlde what it is howe that he that hath nothing shal be nothing set by and hauing a good liuing and being able to beare some countenance he may be a companion for a right good Gentleman and I promise you these were the causes that did moue me to take so many liuings not for couetousnes sake as you do imagine Gen. Was it your chiefest regarde to haue greatest respect vnto these vanities I perceiue you are a right worldling and by a wrong dore haue entred into the ministerie you say you did respect your calling and that was how you were a gentleman ●ut I perceiue you had forgotten another calling which al ministers ought to haue regarde vnto and that is that you are no longer called to be a gentleman and to liue at ease but if you will be the man that you ought to be you must forsake your selfe and follow Christ and as neer as you may imitate his steps and then see what examples are
our friendes our kinsmen or rich neighbours least they recompence vs againe Par. I tell you plaine this is a strange order in deede in my iudgement for I promise you I neuer saw it on this fashion before neither doe I meane to beginne anye new orders for I neuer made feast yet nor neuer will againe but I mind to haue my friends and kinsmen at it that they maye do as much for mee another time for if I had not vsed these meanes to get in credite amongst my friends and the gentlemen of our countrey I had neuer had that whiche nowe I haue Gen. Now it ddth plainly appear what master you serue for Christ diddeth you do one thing and you shame not to say with open mouth that you wil do clean contrary wherefore I may be a witnes that you set more by the felowship of the world then by the friendship of Christ but I woulde wish you to take another order in your fe●tings and frame to liue another life or else there is an order taken for you that you shal bee accursed and al that you haue * Deut. 28.16 Curssed shal you be in the Citie and cursed in the field cursed shall bee your basket and your store cursed shall bee the increase of your kine and the flockes of your sheepe cursed shal you bee when you goe out and cursed when you come home al that you take in hand shal be accursed if you serue not God Par. Alasse what wil you haue me to do you know I am no preacher and therefore cannot giue them spirituall foode it is reason that I should feede them one waie or another for you haue tolde me that a Shepheard must feede his flocke Gen. Alas what meant you to take that worke in hand which you cannot tel howe to labour in whie haue you taken vpō you the office of a preacher and yet say you can not preach whie haue you this long borne the name of a shepheard and know nor yet how to feede your sheepe whie haue you entred as a workman into the Lordes haruest and doe bestowe al your time in lo●tering and idlenes whie are you let to keepe the wolfe from the sheepe and are a dumb dogge that cannot barke howe hath the diuel bewitched you and set you a feeding onlie of their bodies while he in the mean time goeth aboute readie to deuoure bothe bodies and soules leaue of leaue of for shame master Parson and bee no longer deceiued led away with the subtil slights of Satan for let him tel you what hee wil and so blinde your eies that you can not see your sinne yet although you haue atteined to great liuings and are not without three benefices because you are no preacher of the gospel of Christ you ought not to keep one Par. Then I would I were a preacher for then I thinke you coulde be contented the I should haue liuing inought Gen. In deede as it is good reason that he that will not * 2 Thess 3.10 labour should not eate so is it as good reason that they that * 1. Cor. 9.14 Luk. 10.7 preache the Gospell and such * 1. Tim. 5.18 as labour faithfully should be well rewarded Par. Then I see well if I could preach you could be contented that I should keepe my three benefices Gen. No master parson I said not so Par. No did you not say that hee that did labour faithfully shoulde haue enough Gen. Yes but I did not say that he should haue too much Par. Why do you think three benefices to much for a good preacher Gen. Yea I thinke three benefices to be two to manie for him the can preach best Par. What doe you thinke so then I would there were a preacher here that hath three or foure benefices that he might aunswere for himselfe but for want of suche a one I doubt not but mee selfe am able enough to defende so good a cause for if it were not lawful for him that can preach to haue two benefices it must needes be vnlawfull for me to haue three which am no preacher Gen. In deede you say true therefore I pray you master parson let me heere what you can say what skil you haue to make darknesse lighte and light darknesse euill good and good euill the hauing of two or three benefices for one man to bee lawfull which in the sight of God is moste abhominable Par. You haue tolde mee that there is nothing required of a Pastor but to preach the word and féed his flocke and this may one man do in three or foure benefices very well for you knowe by the lawes of the realme that if euery parisly haue a sermon once in a quarter of a yeere it is sufficient Gen. What master parson you slaunder the lawes of the reaime for I knowe there is no law to the contrary but that the minister maye preach euery Sabboth day by the lawe of God hee oughte not to * Act. 20.28 2. Tim. 4.2 neglect any time that hee may bestowe in instructing and feeding of his flocke Par. But doe you not thinke that this may be sufficiently done in preaching once in a quarter of a yeare Gen. If the Diuell woulde appoint two too meete the Shepheard there cuerie quarter and so trie who might haue the victory and neuer came amongst the sheepe but at such time as the shepherd is ther it were ynough but because the diuel as a Wolfe doth alwaies and at all times seeks the destruction of the shéep therfore the minister as a good Shepheard ought continually to bee watching and ready to withstand him Par. In deede I muste needes confese that it were best if it might be so but séeing the case standeth as it doth that there are not Preachers ynough to place in euerye parish one is it not better thinke you that one Preacher haue three or foure benefices that can teach the flocke sometimes then to haue a doult that can saye nothing at any time Gen. Here M. Parson you haue giuen your selfe a sore blowe which are amongst the number of the dolts whom you speacke off Par. But you must imagine that what I say now for others is but for talkes sake and not condemne my selfe neither do I thinke the worse of my selfe what euer I say for I knowe if you had had this talke with a Preacher he woulde haue saide as much for me but this doth not answere the question do you not think it better to haue the flocke fed at sometimes then not at all Gen. Truely I am of this minde that it were as good neuer a whit as neuer the better Par. In deede that is true but you must not thinke but that it wil be somewhat the better for although at I must needes faye that the continuall presence of the Pastors be moste prositable yet I thinke not the contrary but that if it be so that hee maye come amongest his
mercy tovvardes vs for euer VVe confesse that our sinnes haue wel deserued thy vvrath and our vvickednesse is great ynough to prouoke thy anger and we know that thy mercies already shewed vnto vs haue beene more then our deseruinges vve haue alwayes felt thy fatherly affection towardes vs vvhen we haue shewed our selues vnnaturall children and revvarded thee euill for good Oh lord forgiue it vs forgiue our vngodly behauiour lay not our sins to our charge but continue thy mercy tovvardes vs still Looke fauourably vppon this Realme blesse va vvith thy goodnesse and defende vs from Sathan and all his ministers ouerthrow their deuelish deuices and bevvray their vngodly pollices preserue our Queene vvhome thou hast placed ouer vs let her rule faithfully in thy feare make her dayes happy and sende her a long life if it be thy good pleasure and vvhen this her earthly princely state shall ceasse giue her a heauenly kingdome where shee may reigne for euer make her counsellers vvise in thy feare to giue such councel as may tende to thy glory let he nobles know that their honors consisteth in thy worship Teach magistrates to humble themselues and seeke the aduancement of thy glory let them know that they are not placed in office by thee to gouern as they list or do that which seemeth good in their owne eyes but to suppresse sinne support vertue let them draw their swordes to cut downe vice and imbrace godlines as that which is onely their worship teach the ministerie to teach the trueth vnto their flocke and seeke the safety of thy people and not their owne priuate gayne let them not be such as can teach others and not them selues that can shere the sheepe and not feed the flocke let not the desire of filthy lucre make them carelesse to do their duety but let the remembrance of thee which wilt call them to an account cause them to haue a care of their charge Teach masters of housholdes mystresses and Dames children and seruauntes to serue thee and lead their liues in thy feare O Lord learne thē to know that to dwell vnder thy defence is only to be happy and not to obey thee is to be accursed and to heap vp for our selues wrath against the day of wrath vvhen euery man shall be revvarded according to his vvorkes let the power of thy majestie vvhich canst vvith a vvorde shake all the povvers in heauen and earth strike so deepe into our hearts that we may set more by thy fauour then all the fayre countenaunces of the world which are but vaniti let not any thing be our delight but that vvhich may please thee let nothing make vs sory but that which doth offend thy maiesty Also we beseech thee to looke vppon thy vvhole Churche vvheresoeuer with fauour beholde it comfort the afflicted members therof deliuer them with speed or giue them patience to tarry thy leasure let them not faint in that good course they haue begon that suffer for thy truch but be thou their help in trouble and lay no more vppon them then they are able to beare And although we at this time here at home haue not so great cause to complayne as many of our brethren in other countries But thou O Lord hast delt more fauourably vvith vs then with them yet let vs not be proude of our estate but giue vs heartes of humilitie to prostrate our selues before thy maiestie for vve know that our deseruings are not such nor thy hande is not so shortned but that thou canst strike vs as well as them let not so great wickednesse lodge in our brests that our prosperity shoulde make vs to forget thee for although vve sleepe now in secutitie and thinke our selues out of danger yet thou canst quickly set the nations about vs vpon our eares and giue vs ouer to a worse mischeefe euen amongest our selues thou canst soone make a whole man a sicke body and of a liuing body a dead corps and all our pleasures may soone be gone the aduersitie of one howre may make vs to forget all our sinnes haue truly deserued these and greater plagues but that thy mercy tovvardes vs hath beene great vvhich I beseech thee for euer to continue Forgiue vs our sinnes and pardon vs for thy sonne Christs sake quicken vs as thou art wont to do thy chosen giue vs a taste of the ioyes of thy kingdome that vve may knowe it is better to be a dore keeper in thy house then to dwel in the tentes of the wicked vngodly let not the vaine delights of this corrupt world lead vs vnto vanity nor let the alterations of this changeable time turne our harts from thee but teach vs to knovve that thou art alvvayes one and the same dost neuer forget such as doe put their trust in thee VVe know that thy fatherly care ouer thy children is great that they shal not loose a haire of their head but thou wilt knowe how they come for̄ it oh learn vs for so gret loue to loue thee againe and feare to offend so deare a Father keep farre from vs the breach of thy laws couetous mindes lying lipes swearing tongues malicious hearts vnchast and vngodly behauiour which doth offend thee and prouoke thine anger againsty vs beate down our stoute stomcks that we may stand in awe feare thy displeasure that the plagues due for our sinnes may be turned away from vs. O Lord make vs wise in time plāt in our harts a loue to thy iudgements and alwaies haue im minde that thou which madest the eye must needs see which madest the eare must needs heare and thou which sea●chest the hearts and reins must needs find out our wickednesse And because of our selues we are not able to doe any thing that is good but prone and apt to all kinde of sinne and wickednesse we beseech thee so to assist vs with the ayde and help of thy holy spirite that we may through the same do those things vvhich of our selues we are not able that it may be to thy glory and for the health of our owne soules Oh let these our praiers pearce the heauens and enter into thine eares and giue vs this and all other things necessary for vs from this time to the end of our liues and after death a life to liue for euer for thy deare sonnes sake in whose name vve beg it of thee in that praier vvhich he himselfe hath taughte vs saying Our father c.