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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00791	An answer to a pamphlet, intituled: The Fisher catched in his owne net In vvhich, by the vvay, is shevved, that the Protestant Church was not so visible, in al ages, as the true Church ought to be: and consequently, is not the true Church. Of which, men may learne infallible faith, necessarie to saluation. By A.C.	A. C.; Champney, Anthony, 1569?-1643?, attributed name.; Sweet, John, 1570-1632, attributed name.; Floyd, John, 1572-1649, attributed name.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641, attributed name.	1623 (1623)	STC 10910.4; ESTC S107710	44,806	106

it was his aduersaries fault to spend so long time in impertinent Syllogismes which should haue beene imployed in naming and prouing Protestants in al ages which by the prescribed method was first to be done before M. Fisher needed to proue any thing pertaining to the Roman Church Worthily therefore might M. Sweet cal for Names of Protestants and wel might he say That if Protestants had beene in al ages their Names at least some in euery age might be produced Vnto which as the Protestant Relator saith D. Featly replyed saying That is a Non sequitur c. What say you to a People of Africa who if we may beleeue Plinie haue no Names at al M. Boulton Yet they haue descriptions and may be knowne by some Periphrasis D. Featly What say you then to the Heretikes called Acephali who are so called because their Head and Author cannot be named nor particularly described yet the Author was a visible man Are al visible mens Names vpon record Are al the Records that were in former times now to be produced To this Obiection M. Boulton answered That those Acephali held some particular Doctrine which did amount to the nature of a Name sufficient to distinguish them from others insinuating hereby that these Acephali were not Anonymi Further it may be answered That it is not certaine whether they had any particular Author for some say That they were a Companie who in the Controuersie betwixt Iohn the Bishop of Antioch and Ciril of Alexandria behaued themselues like Neutrals submitting themselues to neyther as to their Head Others thinke That they were certaine men who being the fauorers of Petrus Mogus the Heretike did afterwards renounce him from being their Head because he would not accurse the Councel of Calcedon Others say That one Seuerus Bishop of Antioch was their Author But howsoeuer this particular were it dōth not conclude That there could be in al ages visible Professors of the Protestants Faith whereof no Storie nor other ancient Monument maketh mention of Names or Opinions or Places of abode of any of them or of those who opposed them as Stories make mention of some of these circumstances both of the Acephali and whatsoeuer other eminent Professors of euerie true or false Religion We doe not require that al visible mens names should be vpon record nor al Records produced For although to proue such a visible Church as that of our Sauiour Christs described in Scripture to be spread ouer the World a smal number of visible Professors be not sufficient as S. Augustine prooueth against the Donatists yet to shew how confident we are of our cause we for the present onely require That three eminent Protestants Names in al ages be produced out of good Authors But they are so farre from being able to produce three as they cannot name one in euerie age as is clearely prooued in the Protestants Apologie neyther indeed can they abide with any patience when they be much pressed in this Point as appeareth by diuers who haue beene vrged and in particular by D. Featly in this Conference who hauing beene called vpon seueral times to produce Names as he had vndertaken at one time he burst forth into these words set downe by the Protestant Relator What wil nothing content you but a Buttrie-Booke You shal haue a Buttrie-Booke if you wil stay a while Note Reader this Doctors want of grauitie and patience and what a fit Title he giueth to a Catalogue of Names of Protestants who indeed are more like to be found in a Buttrie-Booke then in any good Record of Antiquitie as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther who after his Arostasie more respected the Buttrie then any Ecclesiastical Storie But how vnwilling D. Featly was to bring out this his Buttrie-Booke appeareth in that after the Auditorie had long stayed and often called for the Names of Protestants in al ages which should haue been giuen at first after not onely Catholikes but also diuers of the Protestants being wearie and not willing to heare any more of his dilatorie and impertinent Syllogismes had entreated him to giue ouer his arguments and to produce Names First he said If I should giue ouer M. Fisher would say of me as he said of D. White That I was at a Non plus and therefore I wil goe forward in arguing To which M. Fisher said Then wil I goe forward in answering But the Companie earnestly calling for Names D. Featly bad the Writer set downe in writing That he was willing to proceed but to satisfie the Companie he would diuert vnto the Names Which M. Fisher seeing to be written said Vnlesse this be blotted out it shal be set downe for Answer That hitherto D. Featly hauing diuerted from the chiefe end of the Question wil now speake to the purpose M. Sweet also said That it was a manifest wrong Whereupon the former words were blotted out And it was written as the Protestant Relator sayth That both the Disputants being willing to proceede D. Featly was desired by the Companie to produce the Names of such Protestants as were extant before Luther in al ages This being written and subscribed both by D. Featly and M. Fisher D. Featly proceeded to his Induction But before he would begin to name any he first endeauoured to fore-stal his hearers with an il opinion against M. Fisher saying There is no credit to be giuen to this man who not onely slandered D. White in a former Conference but also falsely writ what passed betwixt M. Musket and my selfe in a certaine Disputation M. Fisher hearing this false slander did rise vp and for the honour of the Truth and clearing of his Credit did before the Audience solemnely protest vpon his Conscience That wittingly and willingly he did neuer wrong eyther D. White or D. Featly in report of any former Conference And if any thing were false written it was not willingly but as the Protestant Writer of this present Conference hath sometimes mistaken the words of the Disputants which as he being warned did correct so did I said M. Fisher. To this nothing was replyed and therefore I suppose that the Audience was wel satisfied of M. Fishers sinceritie in his Relation and writing of the former Disputations After this D. Featly named for the first age our Lord and Sauior Christ and the Twelue Apostles and S. Paul and S. Ignatius after which he stayed a while as if he studyed for more Names but not remembring any more whom he would set downe for the first age he said These not denying others may serue for the first age Then turning to M. Fisher he said Let vs dispute of these No said M. Fisher name first of al ages What said D. Featly wil you not dispute of Christ and his Apostles Yes said M. Fisher in due place but first name the rest in al ages and then I wil answer you What said D. Featly doe not Christ and his Apostles

answered nor consequently he satisfied Moreouer the same Gentleman being present whē the Earle of Warwick told M. Fisher that D. Featly should at another tyme come againe to giue Names of Protestants in other Ages he might easily and doubtles did vnderstand that as yet Names in all Ages were not giuen nor consequently the Question satisfied in which he expected answere Furthermore presently after he went away from the Conference he told M. Fisher himselfe that he was glad that at the next meeting his Question should be answered which shewed that as yet he did not conceiue it to be answered Lastly diuers dayes after all the trouble and styrre was past which was made about the Conference the old Gentleman was not so resolute a Protestant as the Relator pretendeth for meeting M. Fisher and M. Sweete he desired them to giue him a Catalogue of Names of Professors of the Romā Church saying that if after this the Doctors should not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants he should dislike their cause Which Catalogue M. Fisher and M. Sweete haue ready for him but will not deliuer till he get the Doctours to make theirs ready that he may bring to them the Doctours Catalogue with one hand and receiue theirs with the other to deliuer to the Doctours All that can be suspected is that in the very tyme of the sayd styrre when the old Gentleman eyther was or feared to be called in question it may perhaps be that he might say those words which the Relator mētioneth but this if it were was only vpon frailty or humane feare of trouble and not any firme and settled resolution grounded vpon the Conference sith both before and after he shewed a contrary mynd as hath byn sayd As for other idle and false reports of a great Lady or any other Catholiks sayd to haue ben turned Protestants vpon this Conference I neglect them as being notoriously false It may be that some Weaklings who not being present at the Conference nor hauing commodity to heare what passed but from the lying lyps of some Protestants Who reported that Fisher was ouercome and had yielded Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants some Weaklings I say might perhaps be staggered vntill they heard the true report that this was only an impudent slaunder vttered by D. Featly but in words and deeds contradicted by M. Fisher. But I make no question so soone as these shall see or heare what is heere related they will be well satisfied and confirmed in the Catholike truth and that euen Protestants themselues will be moued to harken more after the matter And in case their Doctours doe not giue them a better Catalogue of Names of Protestants in all Ages then they did in this Conference they will doubt as they haue cause that the Protestant Church hath not byn so visible in all Ages as euen by D. Featly his argument is proued the true Catholike Church ought to be and consequently that it is not the true Catholike Church which in their Creede they professe to belieue and out of which as euen Caluin confesseth they cannot hope for remission of their sinnes nor saluation of their soules CHAP. IIII. Contayning a Reuiew and Reflection vpon the Premisses NOw hauing made an end of this Relation I am to intreate the Gentle Reader to reuiew it or reflect vpon it and to call to mind and marke 1. The occasion and consequently the end of the disputation 2. The Question and true meaning of it 3. What Methode was most fit to haue been obserued in treating of this question 4. What course was taken by the Protestant Disputant what by the Catholike Respondent All which being duely considered thou wilt better see what is to be iudged of the whole Conference and wilt make to thy selfe more benefit of the matter treated in it then perhaps hitherto thou hast done §. 1. About the Occasion and end of the Conference 1. The occasion of this Dispute was as thou hast heard in the Relation that a certaine old Protestant Gentleman was told as the truth is that there is no saluation out of the true Catholike Church and that to belieue the Catholike Church is one of the Articles of the Creed which euery Christian is bound to belieue and know and that this Church was no other besides the most auncient and vniuersally spread ouer the world the knowne Catholike Roman Church which hath had and can yet shew visible Pastours other Professors in all Ages and that the Protestant Church wherof for the present he was a member sprung vp of late and could not be the true Church of Christ as not hauing had as Christs true Church ought to haue Pastours and Doctours and lawfully sent Preachers so visible as the Names of them may be shewed in all Ages out of good Authors And this was the occasion of the dispute for heerupon the old Gentleman was so much moued in conscience to doubt of the Protestants Religion that he could not be quiet till he had made meanes to get this matter discussed in a Conference betwixt Catholike and Protestant Deuines in such sort as in the Relation hath byn told And therfore the end of this Conference was to giue this old Gentleman and others that should heare it satisfaction in this most important necessary point I call this point most important and necessary in regard the certainty of euery other point belieued by infallible diuine Fayth necessary to saluation dependeth vpon it For although euery point belieued by diuine Faith be in it selfe most true and by reason of the Diuine reuelation made knowne to the world by Christ his Apostles most certaine and infallible yet this truth infallible certainty therof is not made knowne to vs according to the ordinary course of Gods prouidence but only by the meanes which God hath appointed to wit by Pastors Doctors and Preachers of the true visible Church of Christ. §. 2. About the Question and meaning of it The Question propounded to be treated in the Conference vpon the occasion and for the end aforesayd was Whether the Protestant Church was visible in all Ages especially in the Ages before Luther and whether the Names of such visible Protestants may be shewed in all Ages out of good Authors The reason why this question was proposed rather then any other was for that the old Gentleman was already perswaded that there must be in all Ages a visible Church of Christ hauing in it visible Pastors Doctors and lawfully sent Preachers who are by Almighty God appointed and authorized to teach and of whom all sorts of people are commaunded warranted to learne infallible Fayth necessary to saluatiō And further that this Church and these her Pastors Preachers haue byn in all Ages past not only visible but so visible as the Names at least of some Pastours teaching and some people learning the true Fayth in all Ages might be produced

are these My spirit which is in thee and my wordes which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede nor out of the mouth of thy seedes seede from henceforth for euer Againe Their seed shall be knowne in Nations and their branches among people all that see them shall know them that these are the seed which our Lord hath blessed Againe Thy gates shal be opened continually day and night they shall not be shut that the strength of the Nations and their kinges may enter into thee for the nation and kingdome which shall not serue thee shall perish You are the light of the world a Citty built vpon a hill cannot be hid Tell the Church c. He that will not heare the Church let him be vnto thee as an heathen and Publican Going teach all Nations baptizing them c. Behould I am with you to wit your selues and successors teaching and baptizing all dayes vntill the end of the world Conformable to which Scriptures are also innumerable plaine places of ancient Fathers which may bee seene in Coccius and among others S. Augustine who saith that the Church being built vppon a moūtayne cannot be hid Out of these and other plaine places of of Scriptures Fathers euident Reasons also may be deduced shewing that the Church must needs bee visible in all ages As for example that otherwise it cannot bee such a Church as Christ did institute nor could it performe those offices which Christ appointed it to performe nor could those which were in it be instructed by it nor those which were out of it be cōuerted to it nor Heretiques pretending to be the Church cōvinced not to be it Wherfore out later Pro testants being not able to sayle any longer against this ineuitable Scylla without apparent daunger to split their boate would needes rather then turne back to the safe hauen of the visible Catholique Roman Church aduenture vpon the Charybdis of contemning all Monuments of ancient histories and the plaine experience of their primitiue Protestant Patriarches hoping to escape by landing vpon the imaginary Iland of inuisible recordes supposed to haue byn written and after suppressed in the pretended Popes persecution of the visible Members of their inuisible Church in the Ages before Luther a shift very vnsafe and such as if it were good might serue any other Sect of ancient or present Heretiques as well as our moderne Protestants if they would pretend to haue had a continuall visible Church of their profession But alas who seeth not that these be meere imaginary Chymaera's or dreames For if any such people had beene practizing especially rites of their religion though neuer so secretly they could not euen with a Giges ring haue passed vnseene but eyther with their positiue profession of their owne doctrine which in some cases obligeth all true beleeuers or at least with negatiue profession of fayth by which all faythfull men and at all tymes are obliged neuer to make shew and profession of a contrary religion they or some of them could not choose but to haue beene noted And if for that cause any persecution were in that age as is supposed infallibly they would haue beene taken as others of other Religions in like cases ordinarily are taken and imprisoned or otherwise so punished as the world could not haue beene ignorant of their persons nor Historyes set out by friendes or enemies silent in setting downe as vsually is done their names conditions opinions punishments and persecutions in such tyme such place c. And if such recordes of such conspicuous things had been set down in historyes it is not possible that the memory of such notorious matters could be razed both out of bookes and out of the mindes of men who without booke do continually deliuer in words to their successors what they saw with their eyes or heard with their eares of their predecessors or read in books to haue byn don to such persons as professed such a Religion or to haue beene done to such bookes in which mention was made of such persecution made against professors of that Religion To say therefore that such persons were and yet no record in any booke or other memory of them or that once such Recordes were but after were by the Pope razed or burned and yet no mention made in any booke or other monument that such razing or burning of bookes was by such a Pope at such a tyme c. as we can yet out of good Recordes tell the bookes burned by Dioclesian the Grande Persecutor of Christians To say I say this is senselesse and plainely sheweth that these men who sought to auoyd the Scylla of an inuisible Church by this shift fal into the Charybdis of speaking against sense and experience and indeed runne backe vpon the Scylla of the same inuisible Church for auoyding whereof they deuised this sandy shift of inuisible Persecutours inuisible Persecutions inuisible Recordes of nameles supposed to be visibly persecuted members of the Protestant Church in all Ages before Luther O misery O madnes of our poore deceaued Protestants What Is it possible that Luther and Lutherans Caluin and Caluinists yea our owne Countrey-men prime Protestants conuinced with the cleere euidency of things in their own dayes and with plaine Recordes of all ancient Monuments for former ages doe confesse as you heare euen now that Luther was the first that announced or published Christ that he was the first Apostle of the Reformed doctrine and this so certainely that they do account it impudency and ridiculous to say That there were other visible Protestants in Germany before Luther that they proue by argument this to be impossible that they acknowledge themselues in this Lutheran Reformation to haue departed from all the world that at Luthers and Caluins comming no ordinary vocatiō of Church-men without which the visible Church cannot be was extant in any place that the Church both then and for many hundred yeares before was wholly latent and inuisible Is it possible I say that all this should be cōfessed by the primitiue Parents and prime Doctours of Protestancy and that now their professed children schollers and in respect of them Punyes in Protestant diuinity dare be so bold as D. Featly was in the late conference to controlle and contradict those his grand Maisters in not only affirming but offering to proue by a Syllogisme and by a Demonstration à priori that the Protestant Church hath beene in all Ages visible and O wonder so visible as the names of the particular men may be shewed in all ages out of good Authors and further offering to second this Syllogisme by a full Induction in which he vndertooke actually to set downe their particuler names in euery seuerall age Surely the aforesayd Protestants if they had beene present would haue wondered to see such boldnes and would haue censured this attēpt to

true bookes of Scripture and Fathers which be true translations and which be right interpretations for both about Scriptures Fathers such Questions may arise and cannot be well decided whout the Iudgement of the true present visible Church in regard Scriptures and Fathers do not alwaies sufficiently expresse what is to be held in the aforesaid Questions neither will one priuate man in such cases follow anothers opinion when ech man will be easily inclined to thinke that he hath as good Scriptures or Fathers or Reasons or all these togeather to plead for the truth of his opinion as another hath for his This reason may be confirmed out of Tertullian who in his golden booke of Prescriptions giueth diuers reasons why Heretikes who reiect the authority of the Church should not be admitted to dispute out of Scriptures First for that by their disputations they weary those that be fame they ouercome those which be weake and those which be in a middle disposition they dism●sse with scruple or doubt Another reason Tertullian giueth because this Heresy doth not receaue some Scriptures or if a receaue it peruerteth them to their owne purpose with additions and detractions and if it receaue some yet not whole or if whole in some sort yet by false expositions it turneth them from the right to a peruerse sense And a peruerse or corrupt sense sayth he is as contrary to truth as is a peruerted or corrupted Text. Tertullian therefore for these reasons iudged best not to make the combat in Scriptures but that this gappe should be stopt and that Heretikes should not be admitted to any disputation of Scriptures and he telleth how this may be done saying It must be examined to whome the possession of Scripture doth belong to the intent that he who hath no right vnto them may not be admitted vnto them And further he sheweth That the right order of thinges requireth that first it only be disputed to whom the Fayth belongeth As if he should say which is the true visible Church VVhose are the Scriptures From whome by whome when and to whome was deliuered that discipliae by which they are made Christians for where there shall appeare the truth of Christian sayth and discipline to be as doubtles it is in the true visible Church of Christ there shal be truth of Scriptures and expositions and al Christian Traditions And hauing shewed how Christ did promulgate his doctrine by the Apostles he further prescribeth That what Christ and his Apostles did preach must be learned no otherwise then by the Churches which they founded so as euery doctrine agreeing with those Apostolicall Mother-Churches that is to be deemed true and what doth not agree to be iudged false And therefore to make it apparent that the Heretikes opinions although pretended by themselues to be cc̄formable to Scriptures and such as may be proued out of Scriptures are not Apostolicall nor true he vrgeth them as M. Fisher vrged D. Featly to shew the beginning of their Churches and to vnfould the order of their Bishops so from the beginning running downe by succession as that their first Bishop had some of the Apostles or some Apostolicall man who perseuered with the Apostles for his Author and Predecessour and hauing giuen examples of the Catholike Churches who can thus vnfould the order of their Pastours and namely Rome for one he sayth afterwardes Confingant tale quid Haeretici Let Heretiques euen feigne some such like thing Thus we see what Tertullian did say to Heretikes of his tyme by which we may learne what we may say to the Nouellists of our tyme whome offering to dispute with vs about Scriptures we may altogeather debarre from Scripture and may examine them as Tertullian did those of his tyme saying VVho are you VVhen and whence came you VVhat haue you to do in my ground you that are not myne By what right dost thou O Marcion we may say O Martin Luther cut down my woods By what licence dost thou O Valentine O Caluin diuert or turne aside my fountaynes By what power dost thou O Apelles O Anabaptist remoue my limits VVhy do you O the rest of Heretikes sow and feed according to your owne will vpon my Land and pasture It is my possession I am the ancient possessour I haue the firme Originalls from the Authors themselues to whome the propriety did first belong I am the heyre of the Apostles as they did ordaine in their Testament and last will as they did commit it to my faythfull Trust as they did adiure me so I hold it But you they haue disinherited and cast out as strangers and enemyes c. So as by this prescription of Tertullian vntill D. Featly or some other can by other markes then by alleadging wordes of Scripture as by perpetuall visibility and interrupted succession of Bishops c. proue Protestants not to be Heretikes but the true Church of Christ and the right heyre of the Apostles to whome cōsequently belongeth the most ancient first possession of Scriptures M. Fisher had good reason and right to deferre disputing with him out of Scripture of Christ and his Apostles vntill he had made his full Induction of Names of Protestant Church-men and vnfoulded the orders of their Prostant Bishops so running downe from the beginning by succession as that their first Protestant Bishop had some of the Apostles or some Apostolicall man who perseuered with the Apostles for his Author Predecessour The which I accompt to be so impossible for him to doe as I dare and do challenge him saying with Tertullian Confingant tale quid Haeretici Let D. Featly or any of his fellow Protestants at least feigne because I am sure they cannot find Names of Protestant Bishops and Pastors whome they do imagine for proue they cannot out of good Authors to haue beene in all ages Which whiles they do not al sorts of people haue iust cause to thinke that neither D. Featly nor D. VVhite can performe that taske which they did tooto boldly vndertake of naming prouing and defending visible Ptotestants in al ages therupon al men may as I do conclude That the Protestant Church hath not beene so visible in all ages as the Cathelike Church ought to be and consequently the Protestant Church is not the true Catholique Church which we prosesse to beleeue in our Creed Neither consequently are their I'astours and Doctours and Preachers lawfully sent or sufficiently authorized to teach and expound Gods word nor consequently are people securely warranted to learne of them what is and what is not to be belieued by infallible diuine fa●th necessary to saluation nor indeed ought they to beleeue or heare them at all but ought to vnite themselues to that One Holy Catholike Apostolike perpetually visible Roman Church hearing beleeuing obeying the Pastors thereof whereby they may haue infallible iustruction in all matters of fayth secure direction for all matters concerning good life in such sort as they may attaine remission of their sinnes and saluation of their soules the grace of God in this life and endles heauenly happines in the next Vnto which I beseech sweet Iesus to bring vs all Amen FINIS Eudaimon Iohannes in defens p. H. Garn. D. Bishop against Rob. Abbots A very weake and Insufficient satisfaction as is showed hereafter Eph. 4. Heb. 11. Rom. 10. v. 14 15. Eph. 4. 11. Ose. 2. v. 19 20. Isa. 59. 20. Matth. 18. 20. Eph. 4. v. 11. 〈…〉 M. Fisher. D. Field in his Epistle Dedicatone Aug. lib. de vnitate Ecclesiae a This great Lady did expresly say that the conferēce did make against Protestants euen as it was related by you Protestant relator And another Lady who was present at the conferēce did protest to one that asked her how it moued her that she was by it confirmed in Catholique religion Lib. 1. Inst. c. 1. Sect. 4. Eph. 4. v. 11. c. Rom. 10. v. 14. c. 1 Luth. ep ad Argentin anno 1525. 2 Conradus Schushelb in Theol. Calu. lib. 2. fol. 130. B. versus finé 3 Geo. Mylli in Augustanae Confessionis explie art 7. de Eccl. pag. 137. 4 Benedict Morgést trac de Eccl pag. 145. 5 Calu. in I. epist. ep 141. 6 Bucer ep ad Epis. Hereford 7 Beza in Theol. ep epi. 5. 8 Iewell in his Apolog. of the Church 4 c. diuis 2. in his defence 42. 9 Perkins in exposit of the Creed † See the booke intituled The Author and substance of Protestant religiō Isa. 59. v. 21. Isa. 61 9 Isa. 60 11 Matth. 5 14 Matth. 18 17 Matth. 28 19 20 Coccius in thesauro Cōtrouersiarum tomo 1. lib. 8. art 1. Aug. in psal 47. lib. de vnit Eccles. cap. 16. 25. Isa. 59. v. 21. 60. v. 11. 61. v. 9. 1. Tim. 3. v. 15. Ephes. 4. v. 4. 11. 12. 13. 14. Tertul. lib. de praescript Luc. 10. v. 16. Matth. 18. v. 17 Tertull. de praescrip c. 15. Cap. 19. Cap. 20. 21. 22 sequent Cap. 32.