Pope the strengtheninge of the Saracenes and after of the Turkes and the Diuision and dissolution of the state of Christendome Platyna saithe Ab hoc tempore perijt potestas Imperatorum virtus Pontificum After this time the power of the Emperours and the Holinesse of the Popes were bothe loste Touchinge the Quéene of Scotland I wil saye nothinge The Kingedomes and states of the Worlde haue sundrie agreementes and compositions The Nobles and Commons there neither drewe the Swerde nor attempted force against the Prince They sought onely the continuance of Goddes vndoubted Truthe and the Defence of theire owne liues against your Barbarous cruel inuasions They remembred bisides al other warninges your late dealinge at Vassei where as great numbers of theire Brethren were suddainely murthered beinge togeather at theire Praiers in the Churche holdinge vp theire Innocente handes to Heauen callinge vpon the name of God Achab saide sometime to the Prophete Elia Thou arte he that troublest the whole Countrie of Israel But Elias made him answeare It is not I that trouble the Countrie It is thou and thy Fathers house whiche houe foresaken the commeundementes of the Lorde and houe folowed after Baalim The Subiecte is bounde to obey his Prince how be it not in al thinges without exception but so far as Goddes glorie is not touched These Nobles had learned of S. Peter It is better to obey God then man And of the Prophete Dauid Better it is to truste to God then to truste in Princes For they are mortal and shal die theire Sprite shal be taken from them then shal they returne into the Earthe Neither maye a godly Prince take it as any dishonour to his estate to sée God obeied before him For he is not God but the Minister of God Leo saithe Christus quae Dei sunt Deo quae Caesaris sunt Caesari reddenda constituit c. Hoc est verè noÌ„ impugnare Caesarem sed iuuare Christe commaunded that is dewe vnto God to bâ—â—euen to God that is dewe vnto Caesor to be geuen to Caesar Verily this is not to rebel against but to helpe Caesar Likewise S. Ambrose beinge him selfe in manner a Capitaine vnto the people in Goddes quarrel against Valentinian the Emperour Quid praesentius dici potuit à Christianis viris quà m id quod hodie in nobis Spiritus Sanctus Ioquutus est Rogamus Auguste non pugnamus Non timemus sed Rogamus What could be more boldly spokeÌ„ of Christian menne then that the holy Ghoste spake in you this daye Thus ye saide Wee beseeche thee Noble Emperour wee fight not Wèe feare thee not but wee beseeche thee To conclude the Quéene of Scotlande is stil in quiet possession of her estate is obeied of her Subiectes so far as is conuenient for godly people to obeye their Prince The Apologie Cap. 2. Diuision 7. That wee haue seditiously fallen from the Catholique Churche and by a wicked schisme and diuision haue shaken the whole worlde and troubled the common peace and vniuersal quiet of the Churche that as Dathan and Abiron conspired in times past against Moyses and Aaron euen so wee at this daye haue renounced the Bishop of Rome without any cause reasonable M. Hardinge Before Luthers time al Christen people came togeather peaceably into one Churche vnder one Heade as Shepe into one folde vnder one Shepeherd and so liued Vnanimes in domo in one accorde But after that SathaÌ„ who at the beginninge begyled Eue had persuaded some to taste of the poisoned apple of Luthers Newe Doctrine they went out froÌ„ vs who were not of vs for if they had ben of vs they had remained with vs forsooke the Catholike Churche of Christ sorted them selues into Synagoges of Antichriste withdrewe them selues from obedience to warde theire Pastor and Iudge and sundred them selues into diuerse Sectes This schisme diuision and conspiracie against the Head Shepherd is nolesse wicked then that of Dathan and Abiron against Moyses and Aaron was For as God commaunded Moyses and Aaron to be obeyed of the children of Israel so Christe coÌ„maunded al his Shepe to obeye and heare the voice of him whom in Peter and succedinge Peter he made Shepeherd ouer his whole stocke The B. of Sarisburie Before the time that Goddes Holy wil was that Doctour Luther should begin to publishe the Gospel of Christe there was a general quietnesse I graunte sutche as is in the night season when folke be asleape Yet I thinke to continewe sutche quietnesse no wise man wil wish to sleepe stil Ye saye They haue forsaken the Catholique Churche They went from vs. who were not of vs. Nay rather M. Hardinge wée are returned to the Catholique Churche of Christe haue forsaken you bicause you haue manifestly foresaken the wayes of God But what if a man would alitle put you frendely in remeÌ„brance Sir it is not so longe sithence your selfe were out of your owne Catholique Churche and so were gonne out from your selfe bicause your selfe were not of your selfe For if your selfe had bene of your selfe you would haue remained better with your selfe It is no wisedome in carpinge others to offer occasion against your selfe I beseche God to geue you grace that you maye Redire ad cor and returne againe to your selfe But here you bringe in a great many Vntruthes in a thronge togeather You saye that as God commaunded the people of Israel to obey Aaron so Christe commaunded al his Shéepe to obey the Pope succedinge Peter You saye Christe made the Pope Shepheard ouer his whole flocke You cal him Our Pastour and our Iudge you cal him the head Shepheard for proufe hereof for some countenance of Truthe ye allege the one and twentith Chapter of S. Iohn in whiche whole Chapter notwithstandinge ye are not able to finde neither any suche commaundement of Christe nor any mention of Peters Successour nor Al his Shéepe nor Shepheard ouer his whole Flocke nor Our Pastour nor Our Iudge nor Our Head-shepheard It is mutche to reporte Vntruthe of a man But to reporte Vntruthe of Christe and of his Holy Woorde and that willingly and witingly and without feare some menne thinke it to be the Sinne against the Holy Ghoste As for these woordes Feede my Sheepe Feede my Lammes they perteine as wel to other the Apostles as to Peter Christe saide generally to al his Disciples Goe ye into al the worlde and preache the Gospel And Paule saithe of him selfe Ego plus omnibus laboraui I haue taken more paines and more fedde the flock then al the rest Surely me thinketh it is a weake kinde of reasoninge to saie thus Christe bade Peter féede his shéepe Ergo he made him headshepheard ouer al the worlde But if this whole Prerogatiue hange of Féedinge the Flocke what then if the Pope Féede not What if he neuer minde to Féede as thinkinge it no parte of his office To
thus haue they persecuted the Prophetes that were before you The Apologie Cap. 2. Diuision 2. They crie out vpon vs at this present euerie where that we are al Heretiques and haue forsaken the Faith haue with newe persuasions wicked learninge vtterly dissolued the concorde of the Church M. Hardinge Yf ye haue forsaken the Faithe ye were Baptized in if ye be gonne from the faithe whiche S. Eleutherius Pope and Martyr the first Apostle of Britayne preached in this lande by Damianus and Fugatius within little more then one hundred yeres after Christes death if ye refuse the Faithe which Gregorie the Greate that holy Pope caused to be Preached to our Auncestours the Englishe nation by Augustinus Melitus and other holy Priestes and haue thereby dissolued the vnitie of the Catholike Churche and leaue not to maineteine the doctrine whereby the same vnitie is dissolued all this presupposed Wee see not but that this crie made vpon you is true For then are ye Heretikes in deede The B. of Sarisburie As wel this reporte of Eleutherius as also the other noted in the margin of Augustine that the one was the first Apostle of the Britannes the other of the Englishe are both vntrue For it is certaine that the Churche of Britannie nowe called England receiued not first the faithe from Rome Lucius the Kinge of this Countrie had receiued the Gospel of Christ and was Baptized welneare one hundred and fiftie yeres before the Emperoure Constantine and the same Constantine the first Christened Emperoure was borne in this Ilande And notwithstanding Eleutherius the Bishop of Rome at the Kinges special request sent hither Fugatius and Damianus to enforme the Bishopes and Cleregie and to bringe thinges to better order yet vndoubtedly the Churche Faithe of Christ had benne planted here a longe while before they came eyther by Iosephe of Arimathaea either as Theodoretus writeth by S. Paule the Apostle passinge this waye into Spaine or as Nicephorus saithe by Simon Zelâ—tes or by the Gréekes or by some others As for our Augustine of Englande for it was not S. Augustine the learned Doctour neither was he so godly a man as M. Hardinge maketh him for as Galfridus writeth of him he was cruel disoaineful prowde and arrogant and no way méete to be called an Apostle Neither was he the first planter of the Faithe in Englande For the Faithe was planted here many hundred yeres before his comminge Tertullian saithe of his time Britannorum inaccessa Romanis loca subduntur Christo The countries of Britannie whiche the Romaines coulde neuer atteine vnto are now subiecte to Christe Origen saithe of his time Terra Britanniae consensit in Religionem Christi The Lande of Britannie hath agreed to Christes Religion Athanasius of his time saithe Episcopi Aphricae vniuersae Siciliae Sardiniae Hispaniarum Galliarum Britanniarum sese ad Concilium contulerunt The Bishoppes of al Aphrica Sicilia Sardinia Spaine Fraunce and Britannie came thither to the Councel holden at Sardica Constantinus the Emperour in his time maketh mention of the Christian Churches in Britannie S. Hilarie in his time intituled his letter in this wise Clericis Tololanis Prouinciarum Britannicarum Episcopis To the Cleregie of Tolouse and to the Bishoppes of Britannie Chrysostome of his time saithe Et Iusulae Britannicae extra hoc mare sitae in ipso Oceano positae senseruÌ„t virtutem Verbi Dei The Ilandes of Britannie beinge in the very Ocean far out of this our Sea haue felt the power of Goddes Woorde Theodoretus of the time of the Emperour Iouinian saithe thus Huic Fidei consenserunt omnes Ecclesiae quaeque in Hispania sunt quaeque in Britannia To this Faith haue agreed al the Churches bothe of Spaine and of Britannie These recordes may séeme sufficient if it please M. Hardinge to receiue them And al and euery of these liued sundrie hundred yéeres before the arriual of Melitus and Augustine Yf any man shal happen to replie The Faithe was then vtterly rooted out by the inuasion of the Englishe men beinge Heathens that mater is already answeared in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge Certainely Beda saithe The Quéene of Englande was then Christened and that there were then in this Realme seuen Bishoppes and one Archebishop with other moe greate learned Christian menne As touchinge this Augustine wée are not bounde to al his dooinges Although M. Hardinge allowe him Apostolike authoritie yet al his heastes were not Gospel The Churche in his time was growen to muche corruption as it may many waies appeare by sundrie places of S. Gregorie Verily Beda saithe The Bishoppes and learned Christians of this Countrie vtterly refused to receiue this newe Apostle with his Religion And yet were they right Catholique and godly menne And Galfridus saithe Erant septem Episcopatus Archiepiscopatus Religiosiscionis Praesulibus muniti Abbatiae complures in quib grex Domini rectum ordinem tenebat There were then in Englande seuen Bishoprikes and one Archebishoprike possessed with very godly Prelates and many Abbies in whiche the Lordes flocke helde the right Religion The Apologie Cap. 2. Diuision 3. That wee renewe and as it were fetche againe from Hel the olde and many a daie condemned Heresies that wee sowe abroade newe sectes and suche broyles as neuer earst were hearde of also that we are already diuided into contrarie partes and opinions and could yet by no meanes agree wel amonge out selues M. Hardinge Sith that ye raise vp againe the heresie of Aerius in deniynge praier for the dead who was for the same accoÌ„pted an Heretike aboue a leuen hundred yeres past sith that ye raise vp the Heresie of Manichaeus that liued before him in taking awaire free willâ— sith that ye raise vp the Heresie of Vigilantius in refusinge to praie to Sainctes and to honour their holy Reliques and to keepe lightes in Churches to the honour of God and many other Heresies beside of olde time condenmed sith that ye raise vp the Heresie of Berengarius in deniyng the presence of Christes very Body in the blessed Sacrament of the Aultar and sith that ye adde to those mo Heresies of your owne as the appointing of the supreme Pastorship or regiment of the Churche in all thinges and causes spiritual to a laye Magistrate the deniynge of the external Sacrifice of the Churche whiche wee cal the Masse the maintenance of the breache of Vowes of Pouertie Chastitie and Obedience Againe sithe that your Diuision into sundrie sectes can neither be dissembled nor defended whereof we shal speake hereafter more largely al these thinges beside sundrie other of like enormitic beinge true as they be most true this other crie made vpon you is true The B. of Sarisburie This heape is greate in shewe and light in substance Touching Berengarius gentle Reader for shortnesse sake I must referre thée to my Former Replie
Holy Father and allege his woordes otherwise then they be Secondely he saithe It was not the Image of Christe that Epiphanius found painted in the Vele but somme other prety thing he knoweth not what Lastely he saithe Epiphaniusr reproueth not generally al sutche Veles so painted but onely that one Vele that he founde For trial hereof I referre mée self to the Original The woordes thereof be these Inueni ibi velum pendens in foribus eiusdem Ecclesiae tinctum atque depictum habens Imaginem quasi Christi aut Sācti cuiusdam Non enim satis memini cuius Imago fuerit Cùm ergo hoc vidissem in Ecclesia Christi contra Authoritatem Scripturarum Hominis pendere Imaginem scidi illud magis dedi consilium Custodibus eiusdem loci vt pauperem mortuum eo obuoluerent efferrent c. Quaeso vt iubeas Presbyteros eiudem loci praecipere in Ecclesia Christi istiusmodi Vela quae contra Religionem nostram veniunt non appendi Decet enim honestatem tuam hanc magis habere sollicitudinem vt crupulositatem tollat quae indigna est Ecclesia Christi populis qui tibi crediti sunt I founde there a Vele hanginge at the entrie of the Churche stained and painted and hauinge the Image as it were of Christe or of somme Saincte For whose Picture it was in deede I doo not remember Therefore when I sawe the Image of a man to hange in the Churche of Christe contrarie to the commaundemente of the Scriptures I tare it in sunder and gaue counsel to the Wardens of that Churche that they shoulde winde and burie somme poore body in it c. I beseeche you charge the Priestes of that place that they commaunde that sutche Veles as be contrarie to our Religion be no more hanged vp in the Churche of Christe It behooueth your reuerence to haue care hereof that this Superstition vnmeete for the Churche of Christe and vnmeete for the people to thee committed be remoued Nowe iudge you M. Hardinge wherein wée haue falsified this Learned Fathers woordes You saie He speaketh not one woorde againste the Image of Christe or his Sainctes I beséeche you then againste what other Image speaketh he Epiphanius saithe plainely It had the Image as it vvere of Christe or of somme Saincte You saie He founde faulte with that Vele onely not with any other Once againe I beséeche you telle vs what had the Image of Christe or of his Sainctes offended Epiphanius more then other Images If the Image of Christe maie not be suffered in the Churche of Christe what Image then maie be suffered What cause of difference can you imagine that any other Veles should be allowed rather then this Your answeare is this VVee cannot saie any thinge determinately thereof Whereby it appereth ye woulde faine saie somewhat if ye wiste what Yet muste wée be ouerruled by al and euery your determinations yea although you your selfe confesse ye can determinately determine nothinge Notwithstandinge the Anciente Fathers of the Churche haue longe sithence determinately and plainely iudged againste you Lactantius saithe in plaine woordes Non est dubium quin Religio nulla sit vbicunque Simulachrum est Out of al doubte there is no Religion where so euer there is an Image Tertullian saithe Idolum tam fieri quà m coli Deus prohibet Quanto ' praecedit vt fiat quod coli possit tantò prius est ne fiat si coli non licet Facio ait quidam sed non colo quasi ob aliquam causam colere non audeat nisi ob quam facere non debeat Scilicet ob Dei offensam vtrobique Imò tu colis qui facis vt coli possit God hath forebidden an Image or an Idole as wel to be made as to be woorshipped As farre as makinge goeth before woorshippinge so far is it before that the thinge be not made that maie not be woorshipped Somme man wil saie I make it but I woorship it not As though he durste not to woorship it for any other cause but onely for the same cause for whiche he ought not to make it I meane bothe waies for Goddes displeasure Nay rather thou woorshippest the Image that geuest the cause for others to woorship it Therefore S. Augustine speakinge of the Image of God the Father saithe thus Tale simulachrum Deo fingere nefarium est To diuise sutche an Image for God it is abominable Theodorus the Bishop of Ancyra saithe Sanctorum Imagines Species ex Materialibus coloribus formati minimè decorum puramus Manifestum enim est quòd vana sit huiusmodi cogitatio Diabolicae deceptionis inuentum Wee thinke it not conueniente to Painte the Images of Sainctes with Material or Earthly colours For it is euident that this is a vaine Imagination and the procuremente of the deceitefulnesse of the Diuel To like yourpose writeth Epiphanius Estote memores dilecti Filij ne in Ecclesias Imagines inferatis neque in Sanctorum Coemiterijs eas statuatis Sed perpetuò circumferte Deum in cordibus vestris Quin etiam neque in domo communi tolerentur Non enim fas est Christianum per oculos suspensum teneri sed per occupationem mentis My deere Children be yee mindeful that ye bringe no Images into the Churches and that yee erecte vp none at the burialles of the Sainctes But euermore carrie God in your Hartes Nay suffer not Images to be no not in your priuate Houses For it is not lawful to leade a Christian man by his eies but rather by the studie or exercise of his minde For this cause Epiphanius saithe The Superstition of Images is vnfitte for the Churche of Christe The Apologie Cap. 3. Diuision 4. The olde Fathers Origene Chrysostome exhorte the People to reade the Scriptures to buye them Bookes to reason at home bitwixte them selues of Diuine maters VViues with their Husbandes Parentes with their Children These menne condemne the Scriptures as deade Elementes and asmutche as euer they maie barre the People from them M. Hardinge Partely it is true partely false that you saie Origen exhorteth all to resorte to the Churches in the Holy daies and there to heare the woordes of God and thereof afterwarde to thinke earnestly and to meditate on the Lawe of God and to exercise their mindes in it daie and night in the waie in their house in their bedde and when they rise This holde we withall and be desirous the people beare awaie that the true and Godly Preachers teache them in the Churche and that they thinke of it and put it in dayly practise of life For els to what serueth all our Preachinge Chrysostome Hom. 2. in Math. speaketh against them whiche contemned the Scriptures and saide they were no Monkes but had wiues and Children and care of householde As though it perteined not to maried men to reade any parte
harde mater for your Pope out of his owne garde to make sutche Patriarkes yenough one for Hierusalem an other for Constantinople an other for Alexandria an other for Antioche an other for Sidon an other for Tyrus and I marueile if there be not somme Patriarke one or other for Sodome and Gomorre These poore Holy and Hongry Fathers are contented at al times to yelde theire submissions and to sette theire handes to what so euer they shal be required and in the names of those Countries that they scareely ouer hearde of to confesse the Pope their maister to be al more then al. With sutche daine shewes and visaâ—des it pleaseth you to smoothe the worlde It yee doubte hereof yée maie easily finde that one Augustinus de Roma in your late Councel of BauÌ„le hare the name of the Archebishop of Nazareth in lurie Likewise that one Petrus Paludensis a poore Fréere Obsernante not long sithence bare the name of the Patriarke of Hierusalem But what néede moe Examples Your own Ceremoniarie of Rome telleth you thus Consucueruni Autiqui ponere Patriarchas quatuor Ecclesiarum Principalium inter Episcopos Cardinales mixtim Nostro tempore ponuntur immediatè post Cardinales Sunt enim quodammodo ' Titulares They were woonte in olde times to place the Patriarkes of the foure Principal Churches togeather with the Cardinal Bishoppes one with an other But nowe adaies they are placed nexte beneathe al the Cardinalles For in a manner they haue nowe nothinge els but the names of Patriarkes It is moste certaine that the Christian Patriarkes and Bishoppes of those Countries wil neither Communicate with the Pope either in Sacramentes or in Praiers nor any wise yéeld to his Authoritie nor geue any manner of honoure or reuerence to his personne nomore then to Machomete or Antichrist as I haue sufficiently shewed before Touchinge the Number of Bishoppes presente at your Former Assemblie at Tridente I referre mee selfe to the Recordes of the same If yée finde there more then Fourtie Bishoppes I am coÌ„tent to lose my credite And yet of the same number Blinde sir Roberte of Scotland as I haue said before M. Pates of England were seely poore Bishoppes God knoweth endewed onely with bare names without Bishoprikes In your later Assemblie twoo of your Holy Fathers were staine there presently in Aduouterie By meane of whiche misfortune your number by so mutche was abated These be the greate woorthies of the worlde These Cornelius Bitontinus one of the same Companie calleth the Starres of the Churches and the Mighty Armie of Goddes Angelles These haue power to determine maters that thei neuer vnderstoode by Authoritie onely but not by knowledge Alphonsus de Castro as I haue shewed you before saithe thus It is certaine that somme Popes be so voide of Learninge that they vnderstande not the Grammare Rules Erasmus speakinge of sundrie the greate Learned of your side saithe thus Sibi videntur Semidei miro supercilio prae se despicientes Grammaticos Qui si Grammaticae litassent non ad hunc modum se pueris deridendos propinarent They thinke them selues halfe Goddes and with high lookes thei despise poore Grammariens But if they had wel Learned their Grammare thei woulde not offer sutche occasions that children and babes should scorne at theire folie Concerninge the whole mater your Doctours of Sorbona in Parise haue concluded thus Vt Concilium legitimè congregetur sufficit quo'd solennitas forma luris solenniter sit seruata Quia si quis trahere velit hoc in disputationem vtrùm Praelati qui ibi sedent habeant Rectam Intentionem vtrùm sint Docti vtrùm habeant Scientiam Sacrarum Literarum animum obediendi Sanae Doctrinae esset processus in infinitum That the Councel be lawfully assembled it is sufficient that yâ— Solemnitie and fourme of Lawe be solemnely obserued For if a man would caste doubtes whether the Bishoppes that sitte in Councel haue a good Meaninge and whether they be Learned and whether they be skilful in the Scriptures and whether they haue a minde to obeie sounde Doctrine or no then wee should neuer make an ende These be they M. Hardinge to whom yée woulde haue vs to géeue care what so euer thei saie euen as to the Secretaries of the Holy Ghoste But S. Augustine saithe Ecclesiae inter nos agitur causa non mea Ecclesia in nullo homine spem ponere à suo didicit Redemptore It is the Churches cause that wee talke of it is not mine The Churche hath learned of her Redeemer to put no truste in any man The Apologie Cap. 18. Diuision 1. How so euer it bee the truthe of the Gospel of Iesus Christe dependeth not vpon Councelles nor as S. Paule saithe vpon the Iudgementes of Mortal Creatures And if they whiche ought to be careful for Goddes Churche wil not be wife but slacke their duetie and harden their hartes againste God and his Christe goeinge on stil to peruerte the right waies of the Lorde God wil stirre vp the very stones make children and babes cunninge that there maie euer be somme to confute these mennes lies The B. of Sarisburie Hereto M. Hardinge answeareth nothinge els but thus The Councel is the Schoole of Truthe The Bishoppes cannot foreslowe their dueties The Churche of Rome cannot erre Whiche tales wee haue so often and not without wearinesse hearde already Petrus de Palude emongest other your Doctours saithe Non est credendum Ecclesiam Romanam errasse à Fide Ipsa enim potest è contrario cum Christo dicere Ego Testimonium perhibeo de meipsa Testimonium meum verum est No man maie beleue that the Churche of Rome maie erre from the Faithe Contrarywise that Churche maie saie with Christe I beare vvitnesse of mee selfe And my vvitnesse is iuste and true Therefore so longe as the Churche of Rome can speake for her selfe there is no doubte but al is wel The Apologie Cap. 18. Diuision 2. For God is able not onely without Councelles but also wil the Councelles nil the Councelles to maintaine and anaunce his owne Kingedome Ful many be the thoughtes of mans harr saith Salomon but the Counsel of the Lorde abideth stedfast There is no vvisedome there is no knovvledge there is no counsel against the Lorde Thinges endure not saithe Hilarius that be set vp vvith mannes vvorkemanship By an other manner of meanes muste the Churche of God be buiided and preserued For that Churche is grounded vpon the Fundation of the Apostles and Prophetes and is holden faste togeather by one corner stone vvhiche is Christe Iesus M. Hardinge VVhere ye saie that by an other manner of meanes the Churche of God must be builded and preserued shewe vs what other meanes they are and we must saie ye are very cunninge men who correct I will not saie Magnificat but Christes owne ordinaunce for gouernemente of his Churche who hath ordeined Apostles
geue Sentence in any mater coÌ„trarie to the Popes pleasure yet it séemeth we are bound to stand to the Iudgement of the Pope as M. Hardinge saithe That the Pope what so euer he saie or doo as beinge Pope can neuer erre These other the like be the Priuileges that the Pope claimeth vnto him selfe Al which the Bishoppes are bound by oths by theire allegeance to defend against al menne aliue Now where you say that Bishoppes onely haue Sentence Definitiue in the Councel ye seeme willingly without cause to reporte Untruthe For Pius Secundus being him selfe a Pope would haue tolde you the contrarie These be his woordes Apparet alios quam Episcopos in Concilijs habuisse vocem decidentem It is plaine that certaine others biside Bishoppes had voice Definitiue in the Councelles Likewise saithe Gerson Etiam ad Laicos hoc potest extendi plus aliquando quà m ad multos ClericoruÌ„ This Priuilege of geuing SenteÌ„ce in Councel may be extended euen vnto yâ—â—aye sort yea and that ofteÌ„times better then vnto many Priestes But here of herafter 〈◊〉 at large But whether we be Bishoppes or no M. Harding is no competent nor indissereÌ„t Iudge For who so wil Iudge vprightly must be voide of anger hatred loue enuie other like affections Whiche Sentence being otherwise profane is vsed halowed by the Apostolique Legates in the Councel of Trident Surely the Godly say that as your Bishoppes doo no part of Bishoppes dewtie therefore in déede are no Bishoppes at al so your late Couente at Trident what so euer glorious name it pleaseth you to geue it yet notwithstanding in déede verily was no Councel Whether Pope Iulius by his Bulie vtterly embarred the Diuines Embassadours of the Princes and frée Citties of Germanie from al audience Disputation in the Councel or no I report me to Pope Iulius owne Bulle touching the same His woordes be these Eriâ— ConciliuÌ„ vt qui temerè loquuti sunt aut dicta recantatâ—â—i veniant aut eorum maudita causa in executionem iam ordinatarum ConstitutionuÌ„ Haeretici declarentur condemnenturi There shal be a Councel that they thâ—â— haue spoken rashly either may recante theire saieinges or els without farther hearing or reasoning of the mater they may be denounced and condemned for Heretiques according to the Constitutions already mode Likewise saithe Iohn Sleidane touchinge the Conference had some time at Augusta In Colloquio frequenter ad initium actionis hoc dicebantinolle se vel tantillum de Opinione Doctrina sua decedere sed quicquid facerent eo fieri vt in sententiam suà m nos adducerent In the Conference yâ— was had bitwene vs and them they told vs at the firste that they would not yelde one whit from theire Opinion and Doctrine But that what so euer they did they did it onely to the intent to bring vs to theire Judgement I could farther allege Matthias Flacius Illyricus Iohannis Fabritius Montanus Petrus Paulus Vergerius the Bishop of Iustinopolis to like purpose But perhaps M. Hardinge would refuse theire Authorities cal them partial Yet in a mater so euident so openly knowen it had ben great folie for them to dissemble Illyricus saithe Nostri audiri non potuerunt quamuis id Amplissimi Caesaris Legati Orarent Our Diuines and Oratours coulde is no wise bee hearde notwithstandinge the Emperours moste woorthie Embassadours hadde desired it Iohannes Fabritius saithe Fateor extensionem fuctam esse ad alias nationes Sed tamen additur eam formam non nisi ad illos pertineâ—e qui resipiscere ad Ecclesiae gremium redire velint I graunt the Saue conduite was extended to other Nations But it is added withal that the same fourme or libertie should perteine to none others but onely to them that would repeâ—te and returne to the bosome of the Churche And againe he saith Tantum aburant ab Aâ—ce DisputationÌ„ vt ne ad vestibulum quidem accedere potuerint The Diuines of the Princes of Germanie were kept so for of from the high Castel of Disputation that they could not be suffered to approche to the entrie Petrus Paulus Uergerius saithe that the Bishop of Uegla in Dalmatia was 〈◊〉 shaken vp in the same 〈◊〉 and threatened with Depriuation and other extremities onely for a litle inâ—ling of the Truthe Now dâ— it what 〈…〉 Authorities Noman is herein so plaine and 〈…〉 M. Hardinge him selfe This is his determinate answeare and ful resolution in the case Your reason 〈◊〉 no more to be hearde onlesse ye repente and 〈◊〉 your er rours â–ª Againe Our doctrine hath ben approued too longeth be put a 〈◊〉 in these daies Againe â—â—â—â—che wicked 〈◊〉 as ye haue made ie it is lanful to make neither 〈…〉 Councel not without Councel Againe vve tel you that your change of religion and 〈…〉 Heresies ought not be haue benne 〈◊〉 nor without the Bishop of 〈◊〉 commanndemente nor with his commaundemente These be your woordes M. Hardinge This you say you tel vs plainelyâ—and therefore I trowe we must beleue you And so ye séeme to conclude with the woordes written in the Pâ—â—yhete Hieremie Non audiemus Verbum quod loquissus es nobis in nomine Domini sed faciendo faciemus omne verbuÌ„ quod egredietur ex oâ—e nostâ—â— VVe wil not beare the VVoorde that thou hast spoken to vs in the name of the Lorde But we wil doo euery Woord that shal come from our owne mouthe Was may therefore say of you 〈…〉 Augustine sometimes saide of the Heretiques the Donatistes Cùm omnis 〈◊〉 suspensa expectares in tanta collectione quid 〈…〉 ageretuâ— Quare hoc nisi quia causam suam malam sciebant facillime se posse conuinâ—i si ageretur dubitare non poterant When euery body was looking carefully what should be doone in so great Assemblie they The Donatistes Heretiques laboured what they could that nothing vtterly should be doone And why for They knewâ—theire cause was nâ—ught and could not doubte but that if any conference or Disputation should be had they should soone be reproued The Apologie Cap. 6. Diuision 2. And although S. Hierome would haue no body to be patient when he is suspected of Heresie yet we wil deale herein neither bitterly nor brablingly nor yet be caried away with angre heate though he ought to be reckened neither bitter nor brabler yâ— speaketh yâ— Truth We willingly leaue this kind of eloquence to our Aduersaries who what so euer they say against vs be it neuer so shrewdly or despitefully said yet thinke it is said modestly comely yenough care nothing whether it be true or false We neede none of these shiftes which do maintaine the Truthe Further if we do shewe it plainely yâ— God 's Holy Gospel yâ— Auncient Bishoppes and the Primitiue Churche do wake on our side that we
aske me Wherefore would ye haue al sutche other Authorities put away I answeare Bicause I would haue the Holy Churche to he proued not by the Doctrines of menne but by the VVoorde of God So saithe S. Augustine vnto other the Donatistes Auferantur de medio Chartae nostrae procedat in medium Codex Dei Audi Christum dicentem audi Veritatem loquentem Take a waie from emongst vs any our own Bookes Let the Booke of God comme emongste vs. Heare what Christe saithe Herken what the Truthe speaketh Againe he saithe Audi dicit Dominus Non dicit Donatus aut Rogatus aut Vincentius aut Hilarius aut Ambrosius aut Augustinus sed dicit Dominus Heare this The Lorde saithe Heare not this Donatus saithe Rogatus saithe Vincenius saithe Hilarius saithe Ambrose saithe Augustine saithe But herken to this The Lorde saithe In like fourme of woordes saithe S. Ambrose Nolo nobis credatur Scriptura recitetur Non ego dico à me In principio erat Verbum sed audio Non ego effingo sed lego I would not ye should beleeue vs But reade the Scriptures I saye not of mee selfe In the beginninge was the Woorde But I heare it I make it not but I reade it Likewise saithe Chrysostome Oro vos omnes vt relinquatis quid huic aut illi videatur de his à Scripturis haec omnia inquirite I beseeche you al weigh not what this man or that man thinketh but touching al these thinges searche the Scriptures Nowe where as it pleaseth M. Hardinge to telle vs of an Argumente Negatiue from Special to General and so to cal vs to the remembrance of our Logique pleaseth it him also to remeÌ„ber that the Argument that wee grounde of S. Augustines woordes holdeth not as it is here imagined froÌ„ Special to General but froÌ„ the imperfection and weakenesse of the wisedome of man to the stabilitie and certainetie of Goddes Holy Woorde And therefore the Olde Learned Father Origen saithe as it is alleged before Sensus nostri Enarrationes fine his testibus non habent fidem Our iudgementes and Expositions without these witnesses of the Scriptures haue no credite In like sorte S. Hierome Quamuis SaÌ„ctus sic aliquis post Apostolos quamuis disertus sit non habet Authoritatem After the Apostles of Christe notwithstandinge somme man be Holy notwithstandinge he be eloquente yet he wanteth Authoritie Therefore S. Augustine saithe Cedamus consenuamus Scripturae Sacrae quae nec falli potest nec fallere Let vs yeeld and consente to the Holy Scripture whiche can neither deceiue nor be deceiued For this cause M. Hardinge S. Augustine not onely in the mater that laye bitweene him and Pettlianus but also in al other maters what soeuer so often appealed from al Fathers and Councelles vnto the Scriptures The Apologie Cap. 9. Diuision 3. Likewise S. Hierome Al those thinges saithe he whiche without the Testimonie of the Scriptures are holden as deliuered from the Apostles be throughly smitten downe by the Swerde of Goddes Woorde M. Hardinge Ye would falne remoue vs from a good hold I see wel whiche is the Authoritie of the Holy Faâ—thers of Ancient Traditions and of the Vniuersal Churche Al these would ye to be of no force against Heretiques For ye knowe the Fathers and the Churche to be againste you and that so longe as they are beleued your Doctrine shal not be receiued as alwaies founde to be newe and of priuate deuâ—se If we were driuen from these ye doubt not but to matche vs wel yenough in the Scriptures And as ye would handle the mater I thinke so my selfe verely For when al Authoritie and iudgemente of the Fathers and of the Churche is shakeÌ„ quite of in any coÌ„trouersie by whome shal we be tried By the Scriptures ye saie But when bothe ye and we alleage Scriptures to a contrary purpose and when we vary about the sense of the Scriptures by whom then shal we be iudged Perhaps ye wil referre the iudgement of doubtful maters to the Holy Ghoste VVe refuse not tharbitrement and Vmpiership of the Holy Ghoste For the same hath ben promised by Christe to the Churche to remaine with the Churche for euer to teache what thinges so euer he saide to lead men into al Truthe And thus for iudgemente and trial of Truthe we shal be retourned to the Churche and to the Fathers by whom the Holy Ghoste speaketh vnto vs whose Authoritie and due estimation ye go aboute to remooue from vs. But let vs see what force ye bringe to driue vs from this holde Makinge your batterie against it what shoote ye of but VVinde and Paper Your Artillerie makethe a noâ— es but it geueth no blowe As in the laste allegation ye falsified the sense of S. Augustine so in this ye falsifie bothe the sense and woordes of S. Hierome The woordes as ye allege them seeme to be spoken against what so euer Tradition of the Apostles VVhiche woordes or any the like to sutche purpose were neuer vtered by any Catholike Doctour of the Churche mutche lesse by S. Hierome Looke ye againe and vewe better the place ye shal saye your selues that I finde the faulte of falsefyeinge in you not without cause S. Hierome in his Commentaries vpon those woordes of the Prophete Aggaeus Et vocaui siccicitatem super tâ—â—ram super Montes I haue called the drought to come vpon the Earthe and vpon the Hilles c. First she winge the literal sense accordingly as the Hebrew woorde there by him noted signifieth Siccitatem drought theÌ„ treatinge Mystically as the seuenty Interpreters haue turned that woorde into Romphaeam that is a swerde and vnderstandinge by the swerde the VVoorde of God thereof takethe occasion briefly to saie what this swerde doothe how it destroieth the negligent soule whiche is expounded to be drie earthe and howe it plaguethe Montaines that lifte vp them selues against the knowledge of God whereby he meanethe Heretikes Of whom he tellethe howe they flatter the deceiued peoples with theire Breade Wine and Oile by whiche he meaneth theire Heresies as it were with meates and drinkes and refection There Breade saithe he any man maie very aptly cal it the Bread of VVaylinge and theyr VVine the madnesse of Dragons and the madnesse of Serpentes incurable And theire Oile the promisinge of Heauenly thinges wherewith they doo as it were anointe theire Disciples and promise them rewardes of theire labours which the Prophete detesteth sayeinge the Oile of the sinner shal not anoint my head After this folowe the woordes of S. Hierome whiche ye haue falsified to the intent they might seeme to serue your false meaninge Sed alia quae absque Authoritate Testimonijs Scripturarum quasi Traditione Apostolica reperiunt atque coÌ„fingunt percutit gladius Dei But the Swerde of God strikethe also other thinges whiche the Heretiques for of theâ— he speaketh deuise and faine of theire owne
One place according to the Nature of his Manhed Wherefore dooth Cyrillus saie Secundum Carnem Solam abiturus Crat Adest autem semper virtue Deitatis According to the Fleash onely he woulde departe But by yâ— power of his Godhed he is euer present Wherfore doth Gregorie saie Verbum Incarnatum Manet Recedit Manes Diuinitace Recedit Corpore The woord Incarnate bothe abideth with vs and departeth from vs. It abideth with vs by the Godhed It departeth from vs by the Body or Manhed Wherefore dooth S. Augustine saie Ibat per id quod Homo erat Manebat per id quod Deus erat Ibat per id quod Vno Loco erat Manebat per id quod vbique erat Christ departed by that he was Man and aboade by that he was God He departed by that that was in One Place He aboad by that that is in al Places If ye wil yet stand in doubte what these Holy Fathers meante by yâ— Manhed of Christe that departed from vs let S. Augustine open bothe his owne and their meaninges Thus he writeth in expresse plaine woordes touching the same Secundum Carnem quam Verbum assumpsit secundum id quòd de Virgine natus est Secundum id quòd à Iudaeis prehensus est quòd ligno confixus quòd de Cruce depositus quod linteis inuolutus quòd in sepulchro conditus quòd in Resurrectione manifestatus me non semper habebitis vobiscum According to the Fleash that the Woorde receiued according to that he was borne of the Virgine according to that he was taken of the Iewes According to that he was nailed to the Tree taken downe from the Crosse lapte in a sheete laide in the graue and was declared in his Resurrection these woordes are true Ye shal not haue me alwaies with you Likewise againe he saithe Dominus noster absentauit se Corpore ab omni Ecclesia Ascendit in Coelum Our Lord as touching his Body Absented him selfe from his whole Churche and Ascended into Heauen To be short if it be so hainous an errour in this case to vse these woordes Godhed and Manhed wherefore is not Fulgentius him selfe reproued for so often vsing the same These be his woordes Secundum Humanitatem suam Localiter erat in Terra Secundum Diuinitatem Coelum impleuit Terram Vera Humanitas Christi Localis es Vera Diuinitas semper immensa est Caro Christi absque dubitatione Localis est Diuinitas tamen eius vbique semper est Permansit in Christo Immensa Diuinitas Suscepta est ab eo Localis Humanitas Quomodò Ascendit in Coelum nisi quia Localis Verus est Homo Quomodò adest Fidelibus nifi quia idem Immensus Verus est Deus Christe according to his Manhoode was placed in Earthe but according to his Godhed he filled bothe Heauen and Earthe The Manhoode of Christe is conteined in Place The Godhed of Christe is Infinite and in al places The Pleash of Christe is doubtelesse in One place The Godhead of Christe is for euer in euery place There remained stil in Christe the Infinite Godhed There was receiued of him a Local Manhoode How Ascended he iâ—to Heauen sauing that he is very Man conteined in Place How is he present with the Faithful sauing that he is Infinite and True God Last of al he saithe Vnus idemque Christus Secundum Humanam Substantiam aberat Coelo cùm esset in Terra dereliquit Terram cùm Ascendisset in Coelum Christe being One accodinge to the Substance of his Manhoode was absent from Heauen when he was in Earthe and forsooke the Earthe when he Ascended into Heauen Thus many times M. Hardinge ye haue these woordes in one place togeather in Fulgentius him selfe The Godhed the Manhoode very God very Man The Fleash of Christe The Substance of the Manhoode And these â—e the selfe same woordes that you reproue Blotte out therefore for shame that vnaduised note in your Margine Looke better to your Booke Woorke hereafter more discretely and trouble not neither Pennemenne nor others without cause Otherwise the Penneman wil tel you what birde bare the feather that made you a Penne. The Apologie Cap. 1. Diuision 2. Wee beleeue that the Holy Ghost who is the thirde Person in the Holy Trinitie is very God not made not created not begotten but proceding from bothe the Father and the Sonne by a certaine meane vnknowen vnto man and vnspeakable and that it is his propertie to mollifie loften the hardnesse of mans hart when he is once receiued thereinto either by the holesome preaching of the Gospel or by any other waye that he doth geue men light and guide them vnto the knowledge of God to al way of Truthe to newnesse of the whole life and to euerlasting hope of Saluation M. Hardinge As wee acknowledge this article to be true and Catholike so we demaunde of these Defenders how they can proue the same Haue they either expresse Scripture for it or any of the first foure general Councels whiche be estemed of most Authoritie VVe are sure they haue not Therefore we do them to vnderstand and if they heare vs not we aduertise the Readers that feare God and loue his truth that al truthe necessarily to be beleued expressed in the Scripture and that other Councels be to be receiued besides the foure first which are allowed in England by Parlament The B. of Sarisburie Consider M. Hardinge notwithstanding ye euermore tel vs of Fathers Fathers yet how contrarie oftentimes ye are in iudgement to the same Fathers You saie that the Godhed of the Holy Ghost cannot be proued by expresse Woordes of the Scriptures and thereof ye saie ye are right sure Yet S. Augustine nothinge douteth but it may wel be proued by plaine Scriptures Thus he saith Spiritus Sanctus est Deus Vnde Petrus cùm dixisserâ— Ausus es mentiri Spiritui Sancto continuò sequutus adiunxit quid esse Spiritus Sanctus ait Non es mentitus Hominibus sed Deo The Holy Ghost is God Therefore Peter when he had saide vnto Ananias thou hast enterprised to lie to the Holy Ghost he followed readily and tolde him what was the Holy Ghost and saide Thou hast not sied vnto Man but vnto God Againe he saithe Ostendit Paulus Deum esse Spiritum Sanctum idò non esse Creaturam S. Paule sheweth vs that the Holy Ghost is God and therefore is no Creature Likewise againe he saith Ne quisquam Spiritum Sanctum negaret Deum continuò sequutus ait Glorificate portate Deum in Corpore vestro Least any man should denie that the Holy Ghost is God Paule added immediately these woordes Glorifie you therefore and beare God in your Body Here haue wée S. Augustines Yea and M. Hardinges Nay S. Augustine assureth vs he hath Scriptures to proue the Godhed of the Holy Ghoste M. Hardinge saithe wée
free liberalitie For otherwise of dewtie by youre iudgemēte they shoulde haue nothinge Notwithstandinge Christe saithe Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke ye not onely the Apostles but Drinke ye al of this Whiche woordes Paschasius expoundeth thus Bibite ex hoc omnes Hoc est tam Ministri quà m reliqui Credentes Drinke ye al of this that is to saie as vvel the Ministers as the reste of the Faithful An other saithe thus Bibite ex hoc Omnes Omnes scilicet sine personarum acceptione Drinke ye al of this Al that is to saie without difference or choise of personnes But hereof we haue spoken more at large in other places The Apologie Cap. 21. Diuision 2. 3. Very rightely and aptely doth Chrysostome write against these menne Heretikes saithe he shutte vp the gates against the Truethe for they knowe ful wel if the gate were open the Churche shoulde be none of theires Theophylacte also Goddes VVoorde saithe he is the Candel whereby the Theefe is espied The Apologie Cap. 21. Diuision 4. And Tertullian saith The Holy Scripture manifestly findeth out the fraude and theafte of Heretiques For why doo they hide why doo they keepe vnder the Gospel whiche Christe woulde haue preached alowde from the house toppe Why whealme they that light vnder a Busshel whiche ought to stande on the Candelsticke M. Hardinge The Scripture saithe There shal be menne standing in their owne conceite vnchaste louing pleasure more then God VVho are vnchaste they that exhorte al menne to Chastitie and them selues abstaine from wedlocke for the better meane to serue God or ye that bidde menne whiche haue vowed chastitie to breake their vowes The B. of Sarisburie I leaue youre Chastitie to the iudgemente of the Worlde Yet you maie remember there were somme in olde times whome Christe likened to Painted graues outwardely in appearance faire glorious but inwardly ful of stinking boanes It appeareth by the whole course and order of youre liues that Single Life and Chastitie are sundrie thinges S. Hierome saithe thus Super Concupiscentiam foeminarum non intelliget De Antichristo facilior interpretatio est quoód ideó simulet Castitatem vt plurimos decipiat He shal haue no skil touching the desiere of weemen The better exposition hereof is to applie these woordes to Antichriste For that he shal Countrefeite Chastitie to the ende to deceiue many S. Augustine saithe of the Heretiques called the Manichees Vitae Castae memorabilis continentiae imaginem praeferunt They beare a countenance of continent life and notable Chastitie S. Ambrose saithe Multi sunt Haereticorum qui praetendere volunt Corporis continentiam There be many Heretiques that wil countrefeite and pretende Chastitie of body that by the witnesse thereof they maie winne Credit to theire Doctrine Therefore M. Hardinge when you thus vaunte your selues of this Coloure of Chastitie ye make boaste of that thing that other Heretiques and Antichriste him selfe shal haue as wel as you S. Paule where he foretelleth vs of the Disciples of Antichriste emongest other markes whereby they maie be knowen saithe thus Prohibentes nubere whereby he meante that Antichriste shoulde geue out a greate shine of Chaste life and forbidde Marriage Of sutche S. Hierome saithe Iactant pudicitiam suam impudenti facie They make bragges of their Chastitie with whoorishe Countenance The Apologie Cap. 21. Diuision 5. 6. Why truste they more to the blindenesse of the vnskilful multitude and to ignorance then to the goodnesse of their cause Thinke they their sleightes are not already perceiued and that they can walke nowe vnspied as though they hadde Gyges ring to goe inuisible by vpon their finger No no. The Apologie Cap. 21. Diuision 7. Al menne see nowe wel and wel againe what good stuffe is in that cheste of the Bishop of Romes bosome This thing alone of it selfe maie be an argument sufficient that they woorke not vprightly and truely M. Hardinge You are mutche troubled with the cheste of the Popes bosome wherein be is thought to haue al lawes At this you scoffe foure or fiue times in your Apologie medlinge with a matter that you vnderstande not For it is a Lawiers phrase VVho presupposeth the Prince of euery common weale to knowe the lawe of the same no lesse then if it were written in his breaste And therefore when he maketh a newe lawe he repealeth the former lawe whereunto the latter is contrary The B. of Sarisburie For as mutche as this matter of the Popes breaste is so deepe and full of darkenesse specially being as you saie a Lavviers phrase that no man maie safely enter into it but onely you that neuer were student in any Lavve lette vs therefore see what your owne Canonistes and Lavviers them selues haue meante hereby Firste of al Baldus of Perusium saithe Papa est Doctor vtriusque Iuris Authoritate non Scientia The Pope is Doctour of bothe Lawes as wel Ciuile as Canon by Authoritie but not by knowledge Here wee finde howe so euer the Pope be stoared of Learninge yet at the leaste he is a Doctoure by Authoritie Further youre Glose saithe Etsi totus mundus sententiaret in aliquo negotio contra Papam tamen videtur quo'd standum fit sententiae Papae Iura enim omnia in Scrinio pectoris sui habere videtur Quod ergo Papa approbat vel reprobat nos approbate vel reprobare debemus Quisquis ergo non obedit Statutis Romanae Ecclesiae Haereticus est censendus Et Sacrilegij instar esset disputare de facto Papae Although al the worlde woulde iudge in any mater againste the Pope yet it seemeth wee ought to stande to the iudgemente of the Pope For he seemeth to haue al Lavves in the Cheaste of his bosome Therefore what so euer the Pope either alloweth or disalloweth wee are bounde likewise to allowe or disallowe the same And who so euer is not obedient to the Lawes of the Churche of Rome muste be deemed an Heretique And it were as great sinne as Churcherobbinge to reason of any of the Popes dooinges Further youre Lavviers saie thus Papa dicitur habere Coeleste arbitrium Vnde in his quae vult est ei pro Ratione Voluntas Nec est qui dicat illi Domine cur ita facis Quia sicut ex Sola Voluntate potest per Papam Lex creari ita per Solam Voluntatem potest cum ea dispensari The Pope is saide to haue a heauenly iudgemente Therefore in sutche thinges as he willeth his Wil standeth in steede of Reason Neither maie any man saie vnto him O sir VVhy doo yovv thus Like as a Lavve maie be made by the Onely VVil of the Pope so maie the same Lavv bee dispensed withal onely by the vvil of the Pope This M. Hardinge is the exposition of youre Lavviers phrase Theise are the treasures that wee are taughte to seeke in the Closet of the
Popes breaste Thus maie wee set aparte Scriptures Doctoures Councelles and what so euer is biside The Popes breaste maie serue for al. The Apologie Cap. 21. Diuision 8. Worthily ought that mater seeme suspicious whiche fleeth trial and is afraide of the light For he that dooth euil as Christe saith seketh darkenesse and hateth the light A cōscience that knovveth it selfe cleere commeth vvillingly into open shevve that the vvoorkes vvhiche proceede of God maie be seene Neither bee they so very blinde but they see this wel yenough that theire Kingdome streightwaie is at a pointe if the Scriptures once haue the vpper hande and that like as menne saie the Idolles of Diuelles in times paste of whome menne in doubtful maters were then woonte to receiue answeares were suddainly striken doumbe at the sight of Christe when he was borne and came into the worlde euen so they see that nowe al their suttle practises wil soone fal downe hedlonge euen vpon the sight of the Gospel For Antichriste is not ouerthrowen but with the brightnesse of Christes comming The Apologie Cap. 22. Diuision 1. As for vs wee renne not for succour to the Fire as these mennes guise is but wee renne to the Scriptures neither doo wee reason with the Swerde but with the VVorde of God and therewith as saithe Tertullian doo vvee feede our Faithe by it doo vvee stirre vp oure hope and strengthen our Confidence M. Hardinge Ye flie not to the Fire as wee doo saie ye but vnto the Scriptures Neither doo ye reason with vs with the sworde but with the VVoorde of God Ah good woorde of God thou seruest to many purposes And is it in deede the woorde of God Sirs that keepeth so many reuerende Fathers in prison these many yeeres It is the woorde of God that hath depriued so many menne some of their liuinges some of theire countries whose life ye can not blame Is it the woorde of God that by crueltie of imprisonmente of late yeeres gaue moste certaine occasion of death to those holy learned and worshipful menne who for their singular vertue beinge wel knowen neede not here to be named Is it the woorde of God that made so mutche adoo in youre late parlament for establishinge of youre bloudy lawe whereby ye woulde haue power to put menne to death for the Faithe of Christendome The Turkes and Saracenes haue alwaies suffered them to liue in their dominions but our Gospellers by their woorde of God are taught to kil them Blessed be God who hath geuen to our noble and moste clement Queene Elizabeth a better spirite to vnderstande his woorde in this point then these Gospellers haue yet attained vnto If any of you doo saie that the newe Superintendentes doo not keepe the olde Bishoppes and leanred Clergie in prison but the Lawe of the Realme I answere firste that the Lawe is a crabbe of your owne stocke next that neither the Bishoppes before time burnt Heretiques but the Lawe of the Realme the lawe of the Prince the lawe of al Christendome Neither was the same made by Papistes of late yeres as ye woulde youre deceiued disciples to beleue but of olde time thought necessarie by Princes to be enacted for the better maintenance of quiet in their dominions The B. of Sarisburie It is no newe practise ye saie to kille Heretiques I graunte you Neither is it a newe practise to condemne godly menne by the name of Heretiques You re Fathers sommetime cried out againste Christe the Sonne of God Wee haue a Lawe and by the Lawe he ought to die And Christe him selfe saide sommetime to Hierusalem the Cittie of bloude O Hierusalem Hierusalem that killest the Prophetes and stoanest them to death that he sent vnto thee But S. Augustine saithe Nullis bonis in Catholica hoc placet si vsque ad Mortem in quenquam licet Haereticum saeuiatur It seemeth good vnto no good man in the Catholique Churche that crueltie vnto death be shewed vnto any man no though he be an Heretique Notwithstanding it agreeth wel with youre Religion M. Hardinge though your mouthes now be mousled yet to rampe and gape stil after bloude Fulfil ye the measure of youre Fathers Let it not greeue you to heare what Salomon saithe Viscera impiorum crudelia The very bowelles of the wicked are ful of crueltie When youre Fables and folies be espied then ye flee to Swerde and Fire Whiche beeinge once wreasted from you youre whole Religion muste needes comme to grounde S. Hierome saithe of other youre peeres Pugnant Epicherematis ex carnificum officinis They fighte with Argumentes taken from the Bouchers shoppes Ye haue wreakte youre angre longe yenough vpon innocente bloude Beginne once to knowe the hande of God It is harde for you to kike stil against the pricke Wee maie truely saie vnto you with S. Cyprian Sacerdos Dei Euangelium tenens Christi Praecepta custodiens Occidi potest Vinci non potest The Prieste of God holding the Gospel and keeping the Commoundementes of Christe maie wel be killed But conquered he cannot be Wee maie saie with Tertullian Crudelitas vestra Gloria nostra est Plures efficimur quoties metimur à vobis Youre Crueltie is oure Glorie When ye comme to recken vs ye finde vs moe and moe Truethe aboue al thinges vvil preuaile There is no Counsel againste the Lorde As for oure parts wee were neuer yet guilty to one droppe of youre bloude Wee seeke no aide at Fire or Swerde Wee wil rather saie with S. Hierome Vtiuam filios Haereucorum omnium qui decepti sunt interficiamus Sagittis Spiritualibus id est Testimonijs Scripturarum Woulde God wee maie rather kille the Children of Heretiques and of al them that be deceiued with Spiritual Arrowes that is to saie with the Testimonies of the Scriptures And with S. Augustine O fi occidas eos de gladio bis acuto non sint Hostes tui Sic enim amo eos occidi sibi vt vitrani tibi Woulde God thou wouldest kille them O Lorde with the twoo edged sworde that is with thy Holy Woorde That they maie no lenger be thine Enimies For so I wisshe them to bee killed vnto them selues that they maie liue vnto thee And againe Vindicet nos Deus de vobis vt ipsum errorem vestrum in vobis occidat nobiscum de Veritate gaudeatis God so reuenge oute cause againste you that he maie kille youre erroure in you that ye maie reioice togeather with vs of the Truethe The Apologie Cap. 22. Diuision 2. For we knowe that the Gospel of Iesus Christe is the power of God vnto Saluation and that therein consisteth Eternal Life And as Paule warneth vs we doo not heare no not an Angel of God though he came from Heauen if he goe aboute to pul vs from any parte of this Doctrine M. Hardinge Boaste no more of the Gospel VVe I meane the catholique Churche had it
that is set abroade in the Canonical Scriptures Againste whiche Doctrine if Councelles determine any thing I thinke it vvicked S. Chrysostome saithe further in more earneste sorte Plus aliquid dicam Ne Paulo quidem obedire oportet si quid dixerit proprium si quid humanum I wil saie more Wee ought not to beleeue no not Paule him selfe if he speake any thinge of his owne or if he speake onely as a man And to encrease the vncertaintie hereof the whole weighte and iudgemente of Councelles hangeth nowe euermore vpon the Pope as it maie appeare by these woordes of the Conclusion of the late Chapter at Trident Saluasemper in omnibus Sedis Apostolicae Authoritate The Authoritie of the Apostolique See in al thinges euermore reserued But Platyna saithe as it is alleged before Acta priorum Pontificum sequentes Pontifices semper aut infringunt aut omnino ' tollunt The Popes that folowe doo euermore either breake or wholy abrogate the Decrees of the Popes that were before Whether the Scripture bee wel alleged or otherwise thereof ye saie the people maie not Iudge For Christe saithe The Scholar is not aboue his Maister Certainely M. Hardinge the simplest of al the people notwithstandinge by youre restrainte he maie not iudge of the Scriptures yet he maie easily iudge of you either that ye vnderstande not or that ye vnaduisedly abuse the Scriptures Whether it be the Woorde of God or no the people ye saie maie not Judge And that ye proue euen by the Scriptures God knoweth ful handsomely and ful discretely applied For the Scholar ye saie is not aboue his Maister Thus we maie learne by the Logique of Louaine that Populus is Latine for a Scholar that Scripture is Latine for a Maister And thus by youre vaine premisses without sense ye proceede vainely and conclude nothinge O M. Hardinge haue some regarde to that ye write The simpleste maie soone espie your dooinges Ye can no longer thus mocke the worlde with shewes of woordes Christe spake not these woordes of the vnderstandinge of the Scriptures but of persequution for the Scriptures For thus the woordes lie togeather When they shal persecute you in one Cittie flee into an other c. The Scholar is not aboue his Maister Nor the Seruant aboue his Lorde If they haue called the Maister of the house Beelzebub howe mutche more wil they so cal his housholde seruauntes Alas where learned you to frame sutche Argumentes The Apostles beeing the Scholars can nomore escape persecutioÌ„ then could Christe that vvas the Maister Ergo The people cannot vnderstande vvhat they reade in the Scriptures Here is neither Antecedente nor Consequente nor Sequele in Reason For the honour of yâ— Vniuersitie haue better regarde vnto your Logique Ye bewraie the weakenesse of youre cause when yee so sclenderly abuse the Scriptures The Apologie Cap. 22. Diuision 4. Chrysostome saithe There be many oftentimes vvhiche boaste them selues of the Holy Ghoste but truely vvho so speake of their ovvn head do falsely boast that thei haue the sprite of God For like as saith he Christe denied he spake of him selfe vvhen he spake out of the Lavve and Prophetes euen so novve if any tiauerint aut totum Euangelium subuerterint verùm Si vel paulùm Euangelizauerint praeter Euangelium quod accepistis etiamsi quiduis labefactauerint Anathema sint S. Paule saithe not If they teache the contrarie or if they ouerthrowe the whole Gospel But he saithe if they preache any little smal thinge besides the Gospel that ye haue receiued or if they loose or shake downe any thinge whatsoeuer it bee accursed bee they These woordes M. Hardinge touche you very neare Ye haue altered the whole fourme of the Churche of God Therefore repente youre selues leste ye remaine stil within the aunger of the Curse S. Augustine saithe Sancta Scriptura nostae Doctrinae Regulam figit Ne audeamus plus sapere quà m oporâ—eat sapere The Holy Scripture hath laide a rule vnto oure Doctrine that we dare not to vnderstand more then is meete for vs to vnderstand The Apologie Cap. 22. Diuision 3. For where these menne bid the Holy Scriptures away as doumbeand frutelesse procure vs to comme to God him selfe rather who speaketh in the Churche in theire Councelles that is to saie to beleue their fansies and opinions this waie of finding out the Truthe is very vncertaine and exceeding dangerous and in manner a fantastical madde waie by no meanes allowed of the Holy Fathers M. Hardinge VVhere they saie we passe but litle on the Scriptures as dumbe and vnprofitable therein they slaunder vs as in other thinges VVe do not so But we saie that as euery act of Parlament must be executed by a lawful Iudge so the holy Scriptures haue their execution by lauful Iudges who are the bishoppes and fathers as wel in other places as specially when they be laufully assembled in general councelles Now saie these men that way is very vncertaine dangerous in maner mad and not allowed of the fathers VVho euer heard men thought to haue their right wittes talke after so loose a sorte Did the fathers disproue the order of comming together in general councelles Or thought they the same to be a way for men to be the soner deceiued If so many maie be deceiued with moste diligent studie and mature iudgement conferring together howe mutche soner may one or two alone â—eadde by priuate phansie and self wil be caried away into errour At the Nicene councel came together 318 bishops At the first of CoÌ„stantinople 150. at the Ephesine couÌ„cel 200. At that of ChalcedoÌ„ 630 Al these foure councelles sundry ancient fathers namely S. Gregorie estemed as the foure Gospels Yea but saith he I haue the word of God But what if 300. farre holier and better learned men saie he hath it not Let the reader be iudge saith be A meete iudge in suche a cause The Scholers maie reade but iudge of their maisters they maie not by Christes doctrine who said Non est discipulus supra magistrum the scholer is not aboue his maister VVhy not for al that saie you if the Holy Ghost inspire him Sir is it not to be thought God doth assist his Churche represented in sutche solemne assemblies of three hundred or moe fathers gouernours of Christen people rather then one man The B. of Sarisburie Whether ye cal the Scriptures of God a Dumbe thing or no I reporte me to that is saide before One of you calleth it Mortuum Atramentum Dead Inke An other saith Scriptura est res inanimis muta The Scripture is a dead and a dumbe thinge An other calleth the Scriptures Nigrum Euangelium The blacke Gospel Nowe if the Scriptures be Dead and Doumbe and can not speake then must it needes folowe they are vnprofitable Neither doo we despise the Authoritie of Councelles Good Councelles be graue and reuerende But thus
we saie Councelles are often against Councelles And if wee make rekening of number the Arian Heretiques haue had moe Councelles then the Christians S. Hierome saithe Spiritus Sancti Doctrina est quae Canonicis literis prodita est Contra quam si quid statuant Concilia nefas duco That is the Doctrine of the Holy Goste that is set abroade in the Canonical Scriptures Againste whiche Doctrine if Councelles determine any thing I thinke it vvicked S. Chrysostome saithe further in more earneste sorte Plus aliquid dicam Ne Paulo quidem obedire oportet si quid dixerit proprium si quid humanum I wil saie more Wee ought not to beleeue no not Paule him selfe if he speake any thinge of his owne or if he speake onely as a man And to encrease the vncertaintie hereof the whole weighte and iudgemente of Councelles hangeth nowe euermore vpon the Pope as it maie appeare by these woordes of the Conclusion of the late Chapter at Trident Salua semper in omnibus Sedis Apostolicae Authoritate The Authoritie of the Apostolique See in al thinges euermore reserued But Platyna saithe as it is alleged before Acta priorum Pontificum sequentes Pontifices semper aut infringunt aut omninò tollunt The Popes that folowe doo euermore either breake or wholy abrogate the Decrees of the Popes that were before Whether the Scripture bee wel alleged or otherwise thereof ye saie the people maie not Iudge For Christe saithe The Scholar is not aboue his Maister Certainely M. Hardinge the simplest of al the people notwithstandinge by youre restrainte he maie not iudge of the Scriptures yet he maie easily iudge of you either that ye vnderstande not or that ye vnaduifedly abuse the Scriptures Whether it be the Woorde of God or no the people ye saie maie not Iudge And that ye proue euen by the Scriptures God knoweth ful handsomely and ful discretely applied For the Scholar ye saie is not aboue his Maister Thus we maie learne by the Logique of Louaine that Populus is Latine for a Scholar that Scripture is Latine for a Maister And thus by youre vaine premisses without sense ye proceede vainely and conclude nothinge O M. Hardinge haue some regarde to that ye write The simpleste maie soone espie your dooinges Ye can no longer thus mocke the worlde with shewes of woordes Christe spake not these woordes of the vnderstandinge of the Scriptures but of persequution for the Scriptures For thus the woordes lie togeather When they shal persecute you in one Cittie flee into an other c. The Scholar is not aboue his Maister Nor the Seruant aboue his Lorde If they haue called the Maister of the house Beelzebub howe mutche more wil they so cal his housholde seruountes Alas where learned you to frame sutche Argumentes The Apostles beeing the Scholars can nomore escape persecutiō then could Christe that vvas the Maister Ergo The people cannot vnderstande vvhat they reade in the Scriptures Here is neither Antecedente nor Consequente nor Sequele in Reason For the honour of y V Uniuersitie haue better regarde vnto your Logique Ye bewraie the weakenesse of youre cause when yee so sclenderly abuse the Scriptures The Apologie Cap. 22. Diuision 4. Chrysostome saithe There be many oftentimes vvhiche boaste them selues of the Holy Ghoste but truely vvho so speake of their ovvn head do falsely boast that thei haue the sprite of God For like as saith he Christe denied he spake of him selfe vvhen he spake out of the Lavve and Prophetes euen so novve if any thinge be pressed vpon vs in the name of the Holy Ghost saue the Gospel vve ought not to beleue it For as Christe is the fulfillinge of the Lavve and Prophetes so is the Holy Ghost the fulfillinge of the Gospel Thus farre goeth Chrysostome M. Hardinge They alleage out of Chrysostome that who so euer speake of their owne doo vntruely attribute to them selues the Spirite of God But they remember not howe they who are gathered together in the name of Christe doo not speake of their owne because Christe who is the truthe hath promised to be in the middest of them Nowe if they tel vs that the Fathers at Trent were not gathered together in the name of Christe howe mutche more truly maie wee reply to them that the temporal menne assembled together at Auspurg at Marpurg at VVormes at Smalcald at Baden at VVestminster or any where els came not together in the name of Christe I require but a man of common sense to sitte Iudge in this cause They can not possibly bringe any thinge out of the Scriptures or auncient Fathers for maintenance of this their great case The B. of Sarisburie Ye builde ouer boldely M. Hardinge on Christes promises God is true what so euer he promise But oftentimes menne are false Christe hath promised to be present where so euer twoo or three be geathered togeather in his name But it appeareth by the woordes of the Prophete Dauid that Councelles oftentimes meete togeather againste God and againste his Christe The Prophete Michaeas saithe Sic dicit Dominus de Prophetis qui errare faciunt populum meum Abominantur iudicium omne rectum peruertunt Super Dominum requiescebant dicentes Nunquid non est Dominus in medio nostri Thus saithe our Lorde of the Prophetes that deceiue my people They abborre Iudgement they ouerthrowe al that is right And yet they reaste them sēlues vpon oure Lorde saienge Is not oure Lorde in the middest emongest vs This is youre defence M. Hardinge Whether the VVorde of God be with you or againste you yet ye saie ye haue stil the Sprite of God and oure Lorde him selfe is in the middest emongest you But this boldnesse by Chrysostomes Iudgement is presumptuous and daungerous And therefore his counsel is that if any thing be pressed vpon vs by the name of the Holy Ghoste sauinge onely the Gospel of Christe wee shoulde not beleeue it In like sense S. Augustine saithe Sua illi si docere veliut nolite audire nolite facere If they bringe any Decree or Fantasie of theire owne heare it not Doo it not Thus the Olde Frenetique and Fanatical Heretiques when they founde them selues conuinced by the euident testimonies of Goddes VVoorde they appealed to the Spirite of God whiche they saide euen as you saie euermore assisted them and coulde not faile them Hereof S. Augustine writeth thus Videris ergo id vos agere vt omnis de medio Scripturarum authoritas auferatur suus cuique animus author sit quid in quaque Scriptura probet quid improbet id est vt non Authorirati Scripturarum subijciatur ad Fidem sed sibi Scripturas ipse subijciat Non vt ideò illi placeat aliquid quia hoc in sublimi Authoritate scriptum legitur sed ideo rectè scriptum videatur quia hoc illi placuit Ye see therefore this is youre drifte that al
that he heareth loseth the thinge that he heareth Therefore the Pope him selfe in his Pontifical géeueth this special Charge vnto the Reader Stude Lectiones Sacras distinctè apertè proferre ad Intelligentiam aedificationem Fidelium Endeuoure thee selfe to pronounce the Holy Lessons or Chapters distinctely and plainely not to a Spiritual doumbenesse but to the vnderstandinge and profite of the Faitheful Touching the Praiers that the simple people maketh in a tongue vnknowen Christe saithe This people honoureth me with theire lippes But theire hartes are far from mee The Apologie Cap. 9. Diuision 2. In these thinges haue they set al theire Religion teachinge the people that by the same God maie be duely pacified Spirites be driuen awaie and mens consciences wel quieted M. Hardinge VVhat shal I saie to al this but that ye lie I would saie as the manner is Sauing your worshippes but that your often and vnshamefaste lieing hath quite taken awaie from you al opinion of honestie Al Christes Religion whiche we professe consisteth not in these thinges neither by these be mennes consciences quieted By certaine of these euil and impure sprites be driued awaie in deede VVhich here by sundry Aunciente recordes and Testimonies I woulde declare to be moste true were it not wel yenough knowen by daily experience But as for you whereas neither Breade nor VVater nor Crosse driueth you awaie it semeth ye are worse to be coniured then the deuil himselfe Many of your secte Catholike Princes haue founde so stubborne as they could yet neuer ridde theire Countries of them but by coniuration of fire The B. of Sarisburie Yée saie yée ye neuer sought to quiet mennes Cōsciences by Oile Water Palmes c. And therefore ye stande vp a tipps toe and in your familiare manner crie oute yee lie For shorte trial hereof one example maie suffice in stéede of many Augustine Steuchus one of your special and woorthy Doctoures saithe thus Aquas Sale Orationibus Sanctificamus vt ad earum Aspersum nostra deleātur delicta We halowe VVater with Salte and Praiers that by the Sprinkelinge thereof our sinnes maie be foregeeuen Reade your owne Pontifical and ye shal finde in the halowinge of your VVater your Asshes your Palmes your Candels c. this clause euermore in the ende Vt sint nobis ad Salutem Animae Corporis That they maie be to vs to the Saluation of Body and soule Whereas in the ende ye vaunte your selfe of your Crueltie and so pleasantly make Sporte with the Bloude of your Brethern take it not for il if I answeare you with the Woordes of Salomon Viscera impiorum crudelia The bowelles of the wicked be alwaies cruel Therein M. Hardinge standeth your greateste puissance If ye were no better armed with Fire and Svverde then ye be with Scriptures and Doctoures no wise man woulde greately feare your force As for vs wée maie answeare you now as S. Cyprian sommetime answeared the Heathens Nobis ignominia non est pati à Fratribus quod passus est Christus neque vobis gloria est facere quod fecit Iudas It is no shame for vs to suffer of our Brethren the same violence that Christe suffered neither is it any praise for you to doo the same thinge that Iudas did Tertullian saith vnto your Fathers Crudelitas vestra gloria nostra est Semen est Sanguis Christianorum Your crueltie is our Glorie The Bloude of Christians is the seede of the Gospel I praie God al that innocente Bloude that hath benne sheadde in this cause be not required at your handes in the daie of Wrathe and at the declaration of the iuste iudgemente of God The Apologie Cap. 10. Diuision 1. For these lo be the oriente colours and Pretious sauours of Christian Religion these thinges dooth God looke vpon and accepteth thē thankefully these must cōme in place to be honoured must put quite awaie the Institutions of Christe of his Apostles And like as in times paste when wicked Kinge Ieroboam had taken from the people the right seruing of God had brought thē to woorship the Golden Calues leste perchaunce thei might afterward change theire minde and slippe awaie geatinge them againe to Ierusalem to the Temple of God there hee exhorted them with a longe tale to be stedfast saieinge thus vnto them O Israel these Calues be thy Goddes In this sorte commaunded your God you shoulde woorship him For it shoulde be wearisome and troublous for you to take vpon you a iourney so farre of yeerely to goe vp to Ierusalem there to serue and honoure your God Euen after the very same sorte when these menne had once made the Lawe of God of none effecte through theire owne Traditions fearinge that the people shoulde afterwarde open theire eies fal an other waie and shoulde sommewhence els seeke a surer meane of theire Saluation Iesu howe often haue they cried out This is the same woorshippinge that pleaseth God and whiche hee straitely requireth of vs and wherewith he wil be turned from his wrathe that by these thinges is conserued the Vnitie of the Churche that by these al sinnes be cleansed and consciences quieted and that who so departeth from these hath leafte vnto him selfe no hope of Euerlastinge Saluation For it were wearisome and troublous saie they for the people to resorte to Christe to the Apostles and to the Anciente Fathers and to obserue continually what theire wil and commaundement should be This ye maie see is to withdrawe the people of God from the Weake Elementes of the worlde from the leauen of the Scribes and Phariseis and from the Traditions of menne It were reason no doubte that Christes Commaundementes and the Apostles were remoued that these theire diuises might comme in place O iuste cause I promise you why that Anciente and so longe allowed Doctrine shoulde be nowe abolished and a newe Forme of Religion be brought into the Churche of God M. Hardinge It shoulde haue becomme Scoggin Patche Iolle Harry Pattenson or VVil Sommer to haue tolde this tale mutche better then your Superintendentships And if ye woulde nedes haue plaied the parte your selues it had ben more conuenient to haue donne it on the stage vnder a vices cote then in a booke set abrode to the worlde in defence of al your newe Englishe Churche Ye shal neuer make any reasonoble man beleue your scoffinge tale VVe esteme litle your railinge comparison with your spiteful woordes and so mutche deuilishe villany The Apologie Cap. 10. Diuision 2. And yet whatsoeuer it be these menne crie stil that nothing ought to be changed that mens mindes are wel satisfied here withal that the Churche of Rome the Churche whiche cannot erre hath decreed these thinges For Syluester Prieriàs saith that the Romishe Churche is the Squier and Rule of Truthe that the Holy Scripture hath receiued from thence Authoritie and Credite The Doctrine saith he
when they vnderstoode what a sturre and rule Auxentius keapte there for they sawe it was in vaine to goe thither where not reason but faction shoulde preuaile and where folke contended not for the Truthe and right iudgemente of the mater but for Partialitie and Fauour And al be it those Fathers had sutche maliceous and stiffe necked enimies yet if thei had comme thei should haue had free speache at least in the councelles M. Hardinge First here I note the falsehed of the Lady enterpreter who turneth the Latine speaking of Athanasius Cùm vocatus esset ab Imperatore ad Concilium Caesariense VVhen he was called by the Emperoure to his Councel at Caesarca VVhere by addinge the worde his of her owne she or a worse shrewe vnder her name goeth about to perswade as Heretiques doo that the Councels be to be accompted the Councels of Temporal Princes not of Bishoppes and that they be the heads of them not the Bishop of Rome This mutche to her Nowe Sir to you Defender Al these examples serue you to no purpose It is not denied you but that in cases menne maie refuse to comme to Councels Your examples declare that Catholique Bishops shunned to come vnto the vnlauful Councels of Heretiques But ye holdinge strange opinions condemned by the Churche denie to comme to the lauful Councels of Catholike Bishoppes VVhen ye haue proued vs to be Heretiques I meane the Fathers of the late Councel then maie ye iustly alleage the example of Athanasius Chrysostome Maximus Paphnutius Cyril Paulinu and sutche other for not comminge to the Councel The B. of Sarisburie Had you not had a shrewde sharpe witte M. Hardinge and a very good likinge of the same yee coulde neuer haue made your selfe so greate sporte of so smal a mater The Lady Interpreter pitieth your case and wisheth you a litle more discretion and woulde be mutche ashamed to answeare your folies If the Councel we speake of were not the Emperoures Councel then mutche lesse was it the Popes Councel For in those daies as hereafter it shal be declared more at large Councelles were summoned by Emperoures not by Popes And what reason haue you to shew vs that the Councel being summoned by the Emperoure might not be called the Emperoure Councel as wel as the Pope being admitted allowed by yâ— Emperoure might be called the Emperoures Prieste Odoacer in the third Councel of Rome in the time of Pope Symmachus saide thus Miramur praetermissis nobis quicquaÌ„ fuisse tentatuÌ„ Cùm etiaÌ„ Sacerdote nostro superstite nihil sine nobis debuisset affumi Wee maâ—ueile that any thinge was attempted without our knowledge for as mutche as Our Prieste he meaneth the Pope beinge aliue nothing maie be donne without vs. Liberatus saithe Flauianus Episcopus Eutychem ad Concilium Suum venire praecepit Flauianus the Bishop not of Rome but of Antioche Commaunded Eutyches to comme to his Councel Hereafter M. Harding ye maie take time to studie for somme better quarel Surely this was very simple Ye excuse Athanasius Chrysostomus Maximus Paphnutius Hilarius Cyrillus Paulinus other Learned Bishoppes holy Fathers for not appearing at General Councels for yâ— thei were summoned to appeare before Heretiques As for the Fathers of your late Tridentine Chapter what so euer thei were ye must in any wise calle them Catholiques Yet notwithstanding yee maie remember yâ— by sutche good Catholiques as you be the same holy Fathers Athanasius Chrysostomus Maximus Paphnutius Hilarius Cyrillus Paulinus others were called Heretiques Hilarius saithe Congreger nunc Auxentius quas volet in me Synodos Haereticum me vt saepe iam fecit publico titulo proscribat Nowe let Auxentius the Arian Heretique calle what Councelles he liste against me and by open Proclamations let him publishe me for an Heretique as he hath oftentimes donne already The Arian Heretiques saide yâ— the Catholique Christians whom thei called Homousians whiche in their meaning was as mutche as Heretiques were the cause of al diuision S. Hierome saithe vnto Marcus Haereticus sum quid ad te Quiesce iam dictuÌ„ est I am an Heretique What is that to thee Holde your peace yee haue tolde your tale By like right Christe him selfe by certaine your Anciente Fathers was called a Samaritane a Deceiuer of the people and an Heretique And if it maie please you soberly aduisedly to consider the mater ye shal finde throughout the whole Body of the Scriptures yâ— no people made euer so greate crakes of the Churche as thei that were the deadly Enimies of the Churche nor none were so ready to condeÌ„ue others of Heresie as thei that in deede were them selues the greatest Heretiques The Apologie Cap. 8. Diuision 1. But nowe sithence none of vs maie bee suffered so mutche as to sitte or once to be seene in these mennes meetinges mutche lesse suffered to speake freely our minde and seeinge the Popes Legates Patriarches Archebishoppes Bishoppes and Abbates al being conspired togeather al linked togeather in one kinde of faulte al bounde by one othe sitte alone by them selues and haue power alone to geeue their consente and at last when thei haue al donne as though thei had donne nothinge bringe al their opinions to be iudged at the wil and pleasure of the Pope being but one man to th ende he maie pronounce his owne sentence of him selfe who ought rather to haue answeared to his complainte sithence also the same Ancient and christian Libertie whiche of al right shoulde specially bee in christian councelles is nowe vtterly taken away from the councel for these causes I saie wise and good menne ought not to marueile at this daie though we doo the like nowe that thei see was donne in times past in like case of so many Fathers Catholique Bishoppes which is though we chuse rather to sit at home and leaue our whole cause to God then to iournei thither where as wee neither can haue place nor be hable to doo any good where as wee can obteine no audience where as Princes Embassadours be but vsed as mockinge stockes where as also al wee be condemned already before trial as though the mater were a forehande dispatched and agreed vpon M. Hardinge If I wishe ye woulde take my counsel in good parte and listen vnto it as it standeth you vpon I would aduise you to cal in al the bookes of your Apologie and that with no lesse diligence then yee went about to suppresse the Bookes of my answeare to M. Iuelles chalenge at their firste comminge abrode That done to caste bruites abrode that the Apologie was made and counterfeited by some crafty Papist to bringe you quite out of credite with al the worlde So might ye perhaps in time recouer some parte of your lost estimation For whiles your Bookes be in mennes handes they shal be an euident witnes to al the worlde of your shameles lieing The Booke of the Canons and Decrees
as truely saie The Pope hathe no Povver ouer Goddes causes S. Chrysostome saithe Siquidem est in Causa Fidei fuge illum euita non solùm si homo fuerit verùm etiam si Angelus de Coelo descenderit If it be a Mater of Faith wherein he séeketh to abuse thée flee him and shunne him not onely if he be a man but also if an Angel should comme down from Heauen Thus it appeareth S. Ambrose refused not the Emperours Povver and Authoritie of Iudgemente in Cases Ecclesiastical but onely his wilful Ignorance his Tyrannie For that he knewe his Iudgemente was corrupted and not indifferente And for that cause he saithe Venissem Imperator ad Consistorium Clementiae tuae c. O my Lorde I woulde haue made mine appearance at your Consistorie to haue vttered these thinges in your Presence if either the Bishoppes or the People woulde haue suffered me For thei tolde me that Maters of Faith ought to be disputed in the Churche openly before the people Againe he saithe Veniant sanè si qui sunt in Ecclesiam Audiant cum Populo nō vt quisquā resideat Iudex sed vt vnusquisque de suo affectu habeat examen eligat quem sequatur Let them hardely comme to the Churche let them hearken togeather with the People not that any man should sitte as Iudge but y◠euery man mai after his own minde examine the mater so chuse whom he maie folow Of sutche Tyrannie in Councelles Athanasius likewise complaineth Quo iure cōtra nos Synodum vllam constituere potuerunt Aut qua fronte talem Conuentum Synodum appellare audent cui Comes Praesedit Vbi Spiculator apparebat Vbi Commentariensis siue Carcerarius pro Diaconis Ecclesiae aduentantes introducebat Comes imperio vtebatur Nos à Militibus ducebamur By what Lawe coulde they keepe a Councel againste vs Or with what face coulde they calle sutche an Assemblie by the name of a Councel Where as the Lorde Lieutenante was Presidente Where the Hangeman was Apparitoure Where the Iailer presented the suiters in steede of the Deacons of the Churche The Lieutenante did al thinges by Authoritie and Commaundement VVee were taken by the Souldiers and carried to Prison Therefore he saithe Fiat Ecclesiastica Synodus longè à Palatio vbi nec Imperator praesto est nec comes se ingerit nec Iudex minatur vbi Solus Timor Dei ad omnia sufficit c. Let there be made an Ecclesiastical Synode far from the Emperours Palaice where as neither the Emperoure is Present nor the Lieutenante thrusteth in him selfe nor the Iudge with his threates maketh menne afraide but where as the feare of God to al pourposes is sufficiente For this cause S. Ambrose refused to be tried by the Emperoure Valentinian That is to saie as then it was by a rasshe yong man by a man Vnbaptized and therefore no Christian by a Tyranne and by an Arian Heretique that vtterly denied the Godhedde of Christe Otherwise Athanasius him selfe was wel contented to committe his whole cause vnto the Emperoure For thus he saithe Postulamus causam istam Pientissimo Imperatori reseruari apud quem licebit iura Ecclesiae nostra proponere Planè enim confidimus eius Pietatem cognitis nostris rationibus nequaquam nos coudemnaturam esse VVee require that the Emperoures moste godly and moste Religious Maiestie maie haue the hearinge of the same mater Before whom we maie open bothe our Churches Right and also our owne For wee haue good hope that his Godlinesse vnderstandinge our Reasons wil neuer condemne vs. Likewise S. Augustine saithe vnto the Donatian Hereriques An fortè de Religione fas non est vt dicat Imperator vel quos miserit Imperator Our ergo ad Imperatorem vestri venere legati Cur eum fecerunt Causae suae Iudicem Is it not lawful for the Emperoure or his Deputee to geue Sentence in a mater of Religion VVherefore then went your Embassadours to the Emperoure Why made they him the Iudge of their cause Thus M. Hardinge it appeareth that you in defraudinge Emperours and Kinges of theire Emperial and Princely Right are faine to take parte with the Donatian Heretiques As for vs wée claime no other right in Ecclesiastical Causes vnto our Christian Princes this daie then that maie wel appeare hathe benne iustely vsed bothe by Constantinus the Emperoure and also by other Catholique and Godly Princes The Emperoure Theodosius wrote thus vnto the Councel of Chalcedon Quoniam scimus Magnificentissimum Florentium Patritium esse Fidelem probatum in Recta Fide volumus eum interesse audientiae Synodi quoniam sermo de Fide est For that wee knowe the moste Noble Florentius to be faitheful and wel approued in the Right Faithe therefore wee wil that he be presente at the hearing and debatinge of Cases in the Councel for as mutche as the Disputation is of the Faithe For Pope Nicolas himselfe saithe as it is alleged before Fides Vniuersalis est Fides omnium Communis est Fides nō solùm ad Clericos verùm etiam ad Laicos ad omnes omninò pertinet Christianos Faithe is Vniuersal Faithe is common to al Faithe perteineth not onely vnto Priestes but also vnto Laiemenne and generally to al Christians As touching the Pope and his Vniuersalitie of Povver in and ouer al Councelles of Bishoppes wée maie rightly saie as Athanasius saithe of Constantius the Arian Emperoure Obtendit in speciem Episcoporum Iudicium sed interim facit quod ipsi libet Quid opus est Hominibus Titulo Episcopis He maketh a shew of Iudgementes or Determinations of Bishoppes In the meane while he doothe what he listeth him selfe VVhat are wee the neare for these menne that beare onely the name of Bishoppes Sutche commonly be the Popes Prelates What so euer Learninge they haue bisides Diuinitie is commonly the least parte of theire studie And therefore when they are assembled in Councel they maie wel iudge by Authoritie but not by Learninge Verily Luitprandus saithe Imperator vti experientia didicimus intelligit negotia Dei facit amat ea tuetur omnibus viribus Ecclesiasticas res Ciuiles Sed Iohannes Papa facit contra haec omnia Wee see by experience that the Emperoure vnderstandeth Goddes causes and fauoureth and perfourmeth the same and with al his Power mainteineth bothe Ecclesiastical and Temporal maters But Pope Iohn dooth al the contrarie The Apologie Cap. 14. Diuision 6. The Emperoure Iustinian made a Lawe to correcte the behaueour of the Cleregie to cutte shorte the insolente Iewdenesse of the Priestes And albeit hee were a Christian and a Catholique Prince yet putte hee downe from theire Papal Throne twoo Popes Syluerius and Vigilius notwithstandinge they were Peters Successours and Christes Vicars M. Hardinge Iustinians lawe concerninge good order to be kepte amonge Pristes morally was
good and bound them by the force of reason If he made any other Lawe touchinge matters of Religion Pope Ioannes then beinge approued it or at the leste Iustianian asked approbation thereof as it maie appeare in his owne Epistle wherein he confesseth in the facte it selfe that his Lawes could not binde in supernatural causes belonginge to faithe except the heade of the Vniuersal Churche confirme them Syluerius and Vigilius were deposed rather by Theodora the Emperesse then by Iustinian the Emperoure Ye do wronge to impute that wicked tyrannie vnto him He is not to be burthened there with onlesse the man be countable for his wiues iniquities Howe so euer it was that extraordinary violence and tyrannie can not iustly be alleaged to the defence of your false assertion Neither woulde your selfe haue mentioned the same if ye coulde haue founde better matter As hungrie Dogges eate durty puddinges accordinge to the prouerbe cleane yenough for sutche vncleane writers so your fowle matters be defended by fowle factes The B. of Sarisburie Iustinian yée saie might wel make somme Moral Lawe to keepe Priestes and Bishoppes in good order Wherein neuerthelesse Pope Paule 3. condemneth you vtterly For thus he writeth and reasoneth substantially against the Emperoure Charles the Fifthe Ecce ego super Pastores meos Beholde saithe Almighty God I mee selfe wil ouersee my Sheepheardes Ergo saithe Pope Paulus The Emperoure maie not deale with the manners of Priestes and Bishoppes How be it the Emperours made Lavves Touchinge the Holy Trinitie Touchinge the Faithe Touchinge Baptisme Touchinge the Holy Communion Touchinge the Publique Praiers Touchinge the Scriptures Touchinge the keepinge of Holy daies Touchinge Churches Chaples Touchinge the Consecration of Bishoppes Touchinge Non Residences Touchinge Periurie c. It were mutche for you M. Hardinge to saie as nowe yée woulde séeme to saie Al these were Moral Lawes and perteined onely to good order But the Pope yee saie allowed the Emperours Ecclesiastical Lawes Otherwise of the Emperours owne Authoritie they had no force The truthe hereof by the Particulares maie soone appeare By one of the Emperours Lavves it is prouided That the Bishop of Constantinople shal haue Equal Povver and Prerogatiue with the Bishop of Rome This Lavve the Pope coulde neuer brooke And yet that notwithstandinge Liberatus saithe It holdeth stil by the Emperours Authoritie whether the Pope wil or no Againe it is prouided in the same Lavve that the Churches of Illyricum in their doubteful cases shal appeale to Constantinople not to Rome The Emperoure Constantine saithe If the Bishop moue trouble by Doctrine or otherwise by my hande he shal be pounished For my hande is the hande of Goddes Minister Iustinian the Emperoure in his Lavve commaundeth That the Prieste or Bishop in pronouncinge the Publique Praiers and in the Ministration of the Sacramentes lifte vp his voice and speake alowde that the people maie saie Amen and be sturred to more Deuotion Againe he saithe as it is noted in the Glose vpon the Authentiques Papa Temporalibus immiscere se non debet The Pope maie not intermeddle with Temporal Causes In the same Lawes the same Emperoure Iustinian saithe Wee Commounde the moste Holy Archebishoppes and Patriarkes of Rome of Constantinople of Alexandria of Antioche and of Hierusalem The same Emperoure Iustinian commaundeth That al Monkes either be driuen to studie the Scriptures or els be forced to Bodily Laboure Carolus Magnus made a Lavve That nothinge shoulde be readde openly in the Churche sauinge onely the Canonical Bookes of the Holy Scriptures And that the Faitheful People shoulde receiue the Holy Communion euery Sonnedaie I leaue the rehearsal of infinite other like Examples Nowe M. Hardinge wil you saie or maie wee beleue that al these and other like Lavves were allowed by the Pope In déede your Gloser saithe Ad quid intromittit se Imperator de Spiritualibus vel Ecclesiasticis cùm sciat ad se non pertinere VVherefore doothe the Emperoure thus busie him selfe with these Spiritual or Ecclesiastical maters seeinge he knoweth they are no parte of his Charge To so profounde a question after a longe solemne studie he diuiseth this answeare Dic quòd Authoritate Papae hoc facit Scie thou that he doothe it by the Popes Authoritie And then the whole mater is discharged and al is wel Notwithstandinge somme likelihoode hereof yee would seeme to geather euen out of Iustinians owne woordes For thus he saithe vnto the Pope although far otherwise then you haue forced him to saie Omnia quae ad Ecclesiarum statum pertinent approued in the Right Faithe therefore wee wil that he be presente at the hearing and debatinge of Cases in the Councel for as mutche as the Disputation is of the Faithe For Pope Nicolas him selfe saithe as it is alleged before Fides Vniuersalis est Fides omnium Communis est Fides nō solùm ad Clericos verùm etiam ad Laicos ad omnes omninò pertinet Christianos Faithe is Vniuersal Faithe is common to al Faithe perteineth not onely vnto Priestes but also vnto Laiemenne and generally to al Christians As touchinge the Pope and his Vniuersalitie of Povver in and ouer al Councelles of Bishoppes wée maie rightly saie as Athanasius saithe of Constantius the Arian Emperoure Obtendit in speciem Episcoporum Iudicium sed interim facit quod ipsi libet Quid opus est Hominibus Titulo Episcopis He maketh a shew of Iudgementes or Determinations of Bishoppes In the meane while he doothe what he listeth him selfe VVhat are wee the neare for these menne that beare onely the name of Bishoppes Sutche commonly be the Popes Prelates What so euer Learninge they haue bisides Diuinitie is commonly the least parte of theire studie And therefore when they are assembled in Councel they maie wel iudge by Authoritie but not by Learninge Verily Luitprandus saithe Imperator vti experientia didicimus intelligit negotia Dei facit amat ea tuetur omnibus viribus Ecclesiasticas res Ciuiles Sed Iohannes Papa facit contra haec omnia Wee see by experience that the Emperoure vnderstandeth Goddes causes and fauoureth and perfourmeth the same and with al his power mainteineth bothe Ecclesiastical and Temporal maters But Pope Iohn dooth al the contrarie The Apologie Cap. 14. Diuision 6. The Emperoure Iustinian made a Lawe to correcte the behaueour of the Cleregie to cutte shorte the insolente lewdenesse of the Priestes And albeit hee were a Christian and a Catholique Prince yet putte hee downe from theire Papal Throne twoo Popes Syluerius and Vigilius notwithstandinge they were Peters Successours and Christes Vicars M. Hardinge Iustinians lawe concerninge good order to be kepte amonge Priestes morally was good and bound them by the force of reason If he made any other Lawe touchinge matters of Religion Pope Ioannes then beinge approued
imagine that the Princes Povver is onely Bodily and not Ghostely and that the Prince hath the Charge of mennes Bodies but none of their Soules But this is starke false And whereas you so highly extolle your Popes Vniuersal Povver as if it were Supernatural and Heauenly and came onely from God An other of your Doctours saithe Ea quae sunt Iurisdictionis Papae non sunt supra Naturam Conditionem negotij nec supra Conditionem hominum Quia non est supra conditionem hominis quòd homines praesint hominibus Imò naturale est quodammodò Sutche thinges as belonge to the Popes Iurisdiction are not aboue Nature nor aboue the Condition of the thinge it selfe nor aboue the Capacitie of a Man For it is not aboue the Nature of a Man for Man to rule ouer Menne Naie rather in a sorte it is Natural Nowe M. Hardinge if the Princes Povver be from God as wel as the Popes If the Popes Povver concerninge Iurisdiction be Natural as wel as the Princes If they flowe bothe from one Original If they haue so smal difference what meante you then by these odious Comparisons so highly and so ambitiously to auance the one so disdeignefully and scornefully to abase the other Touchinge the Princes Povver wée are certainely assured by Goddes Holy VVoorde It is from God As for the Popes Infinite and Vniuersal Povver throughout the whole Scriptures from the Genesis vnto the Apocalyps onlesse it be the Povver of Darkenesse yee can finde nothinge Yée saie Kinges haue euermore benne Anointed and Blessed by Bishoppes This is an other fowle Vntruthe For you might easily haue knowen the Christian Kinges in olde times were neuer Anointed Your owne Doctoure saith In Nouo Testamento non legimus quòd Sacerdotes debeant inungere Reges Nec etiam nunc obseruatur in omnibus Regibus Christianis vt patet in Regibus Hispaniae Wee reade not in the Newe Testamente that Priestes or Bishoppes ought to anointe Kinges Neither is that order at this daie vsed emongest al Kinges that be Christened as it appeareth by the Kinges of Spaine Againe yee saie and that yée bringe in as a special good Argumente of your side The Emperoure kneeleth to the Prieste for Absolution Ergo The Emperoure is not the Heade of the Churche Howe maie a man answeare sutche Folies better then with the like Folie The Pope him selfe by your owne Decrees is bounde to Confesse his Sinnes and kneeleth to a Simple Prieste for Absolution For your Canonistes saie Papa tenetur Confiteri peccata sua vni Sacerdoti Et Simplex Sacerdos potest illum Ligare Absoluere The Pope is bounde to confesse his Sinnes to somme one Prieste and a Simple Prieste maie bothe Binde him and Absolue him Ergo by your owne Conclusion The Pope is not Heade of the Churche Sutche a handesome proctoure the Pope hathe gotten to promote his Cause With sutche prety stuffe M. Hardinge yee thinke to ouerrenne and to conquere the worlde The Apologie Cap. 15. Diuision 2. Wherefore if it were lawful for them to doo thus beinge but ciuile Magistrates hauinge the chiefe rule of common VVeales what offence haue oure Princes at this daie made whiche maie not haue leaue to doo the like beinge in the like Degree Or what especial gifte of Learning or of Iudgemente or of Holinesse haue these menne nowe that they contrarie to the Custome of al the Aunciente Catholique Bishoppes who vsed to conferre with Princes and Peeres concerninge Religion doo nowe thus reiecte and caste of Christian Princes from knowinge of the cause and from their meetinges M. Hardinge VVee answeare it was neuer lawfull in any Temporall Prince to iudge in causes of Religion Neither did any Prince before this time euer vse it The B. of Sarisburie This is an other of your Absolute Truthes M. Hardinge For answeare whereof it maie please you indifferently to weighe that I haue written alitle before touchinge the same The Apologie Cap. 15. Diuision 3. Wel thus dooing they wisely warily prouide for them selues and for their Kingedome whiche otherwise they see is like shortly to comme to naught For if so be they whome God hathe placed in greatest Dignitie did see and perceiue these mennes practises how christes commaundementes be despised by them how the Lighte of the Gospel is darkened and quenched out by them and howe them selues also be subtilly beguiled and mocked and vnwares be deluded by them and the waie to the Kingedome of Heauen stopped vp before them no doubte they woulde neuer so quietly suffer them selues neither to be disdeined after sutche a prowde sorte nor so despitefully to be scorned and abused by them But now through their owne lacke of vnderstandinge and through their owne blindenesse these menne haue them faste yoked and in their daunger M. Hardinge Bishoppes can not vpholde their kingdome by wronge doinge that is the waie to pull them downe Therefore we are well assured that your Schismaticall Superintendentship can not stande though al the power of the world were bente to holde it vp Your wicked state is not planted of God and therefore it shal be rooted out It is God that ruleth it is God that setteth vp and putteth downe This state of Christes Churche hath continewed and the successour of Peter hath gouerned it whereas the groundlesse buildinge of all the Heretikes from Simon Magus downewarde to this daie hath failed Luther is rotten and his newe founde Religion decaied and the Pope sitteth in Peters chaire and so shall his successours to the ende Ye woulde men to beleue that Emperours and Kinges are deceiued by the Popes and Bishoppes But I praie you what is the cause that Princes can not espie these deceites if any suche were as well as ye If them selues lacke your knowledge yet haue they wise menne aboute them who for their dueties sake and their alleagiance to them ▪ would soone aduertise them ▪ how by the Bishoppes they be subtilly beguiled and mocked The B. of Sarisburie Of the maineteinance of your Kingedome M. Hardinge Christe saide vnto certaine your Forefathers Hoc est tempus Vestrum Potestas Tenebrarum This is your time and the Power of Darkenesse Blinde they are and the Guides of the Blinde If the Blinde leade the Blinde they wil bothe falle into the diche The Lion or wilde Bulle be they neuer so cruel or greate of courrage yet if yee maie once closely couer theire eies yée maie easily leade them whither yee liste without resistance Euen so dooth the Pope hoodevvinke and blindefolde the Princes of the world whiche donne he maketh them to holde his Stirope to leade his Horse to kneele downe and to kisse his Shooe and to attende vpon him at his pleasure But if they knewe either him or them selues they would not doo it S. Chrysostome saithe as it is noted before Haeretici Sacerdotes claudunt Ianuas Veritatis Sciunt enim si manifestara esset