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A20661 A proufe of certeyne articles in religion, denied by M. Iuell sett furth in defence of the Catholyke beleef therein, by Thomas Dorman, Bachiler of Diuinitie. VVhereunto is added in the end, a conclusion, conteinyng .xij. causes, vvhereby the author acknovvlegeth hym self to haue byn stayd in hys olde Catholyke fayth that he vvas baptized in, vvysshyng the same to be made common to many for the lyke stay in these perilouse tymes. Dorman, Thomas, d. 1577? 1564 (1564) STC 7062; ESTC S110087 184,006 300

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But if he wer not a priest what was he then Could he be greater The psalme vttreth that he was a priest Moyses and Aaron emongest his priestes They wer therefore both our Lordes priestes Here I beseche yow good readers behold the false and vneuen dealing of an heretike the author of the harborough of whom a little before I made mention He minding to elude this manifest exposition of S. Austen answereth in this manner that S. Austen was ignorant in the Hebrue tongue whereby being easely deceauid and wrapped in thiese two places of scripture wherein there seemed contradiction he leaueth them at a iarre as he found them the one to saie he was a priest thother to saie that he was none Which manner of interpretation and reconciling of scriptures how it is to be liked he leaueth he saieth to the learned reader to iudge For answer to this mere cauillation of this vaine iangler before I procede any farder because he shall not abuse S. Austens ignorance in the Hebrue tongue to the deceauing of yow good readers yow shall vnderstand that S. Hierō was not ignorant therin and yeat doeth he so expounde the place The .70 interpretours chosen and picked as it wer out of the best learned and cūning est in that tongue by all likelihood that could be found Sanctes Pagninus and Sebastianus Munster yea that most learned Rabbine Abrahamus Esdras ● Iewe born wer not ignorant but pearlesse Paragōs therein and yeat doe all thiese expound the Hebrue word to signifie priestes as Sainct Austen doeth And where he saieth that S. Austē being thus wrapped in thiese two contrarie textes was driuen to leaue them as he found thē the one to saie he was a priest thother that he was none in th'one he hath belied● the holie scriptures in thother he hath sclaundred that holie and learned bishop For where or what scripture saieth that Moyses was no priest as he saieth that one texte saide he was an other that he was none Let him show somme such scripture or elles hath he lied apon the scripture He may show I confesse where the scripture as there apon S. Austen made his obiection speaking of him calleth him not by the name of a priest which in many other places it doeth also of Aaron Is this therefore a good reason to saie The scripture in that place made no mention that he was a priest therefore it saied that he was none Yea truelie euen as good as is this The scripture maketh no mention that th'apostles wer euer baptized therefore it saieth that theie neuer wer baptized Or doe thiese textes make anie iarre the one affirming the other denieng to saie Aaron the priest in one place and Moyses and Aaron his priestes in an other But as this is a lewd lye so to goe about to note S. Austē to the world of such ignorance in the scriptures as though he had not byn able to vndoe this simple knot a knot if it be but was forced to leaue the two places at a iarre vnreconciled I can call it no better but euen by the name of wilfull malice As appeareth by that that guilefully in alleaging after their māner without cotatiō the easelier thereby to deceaue the reader this place of S. Austen he left out thiese later wordes Ergo erant illi domini sacerdotes therefore they wer Moyses and Aaron our lordes priestes Now here note I beseche yow diligently that ar of the learned sorte thiese wordes of S. Austen which import in them thus much It maie seeme saieth he to some man that Moyses because the scripture nameth there onelie Aaron by the name of a priest and not him wer no priest but of them that so gather I would know if he wer no priest what he was then whether they can make him King Emperour or any thing that should be greater And although the scripture in that place doe not call him by the name of his office yet neither doeth it therefore deny him to be a priest nor we ar destitute of other places to proue the same by as namelie this psalme wherein expresselie he is so called Wherefore seing neither that place or any other doe saie that he was not a priest and there is plaine scripture that doeth call him one I maie boldelie conclude Erant ergo illi sacerdotes domini Therefore they wer bothe our lordes priestes This is no dout the true sense of S. Austēs wordes wherebie yow maie see how greate the difficulties wer in which he was wrapped and how he woūd him selfe out But then saieth this stout champion there wer two high priestes at once which could not be by the lawe and also Moyses must nedes be inferior to Aaron because Aaron and not he is there called the high prieste This obiection hath in dede a showe of somewhat although in their manner of gouernemēt to haue manie heades wer no greate absurditie at all But to this obiection answereth most fully S. Austen him self in an other place after this sorte Cùm ergo videatur c. Seing therefore that the highe priestehood seemeth to haue begonne in Aaron what thincke we that Moyses was If he wer not a priest how did he thē all those thinges which he did If he wer howe say we that the high priestehood began in his brother Aaron Although the Psalme also where it is saide Moyses an● Aaron emongest his priestes doeth remoue all cause of ●oubte affirming that Moyses was also a priest Wer they therefore Moyses and Aaron bothe chief priestes or rather Moyses the chief and Aaron vnder him yea Aaron also the chiefest in respect of the bishoppes apparell and Moyses the chief in re●pect of a more excellent ministery For ●t the beginning wa● it said to Moyses of Aaron He shall be thy director in those thinge● that ar to be handled with the people and thow his in such busines as is to be done with god Hetherto S. Austen by whome we learne that it is no absurditie that two should be chief in two seuerall respectes the one in ouerseing and prescribing what shalbe doē th'other in practising and putting in execution the thinges prescribed the one absolutely without relation the other in a respect by a comparison As in the newe lawe a figure whereof diuerse well learned mē haue expounded this priestehood of Moyses and Aaron to be Christ we see is of his churche onely simply and absolutely the head Peter and after him his successors no otherwise but in comparison of other inferiour membres Moyses as he was with god more familier thē anie other as he receiued immediatly without the help of anie other instrument to conuey it by vnto him from the mouthe of almightie god his holie will and pleasure he was there is no doute thereof the high and chiefest priest Aaron also as he was by almightie god chosen to publish to the people those thinges which Moyses had giuen him in charge as he offred the
hereafter In the meane season that theie will haue of Christes church here in earthe no other head but Christ him self therein they fare me thincketh not much vnlike to a certein ●elon of whome I haue harde that being areigued 〈◊〉 ●he bar for a felonie when he had pleadid to the 〈◊〉 not guilty and was after the manner demaunded how he would be tried he would suspecting his own case and knowing that if he satisfied the law in putting him self apon the tryall of the country there wer no moe waies with him but one make thereto no other answer but onely that he would put him self apon god the righteous iudge of all who although he saide truely that god was the chief iudge of all as the protestants doe in calling Christ the head of the churche yet was there in his case an other iudge here in this worlde vnder god by whom he must haue byn tried as there is in theirs an other head here in the churche to ordre them and kepe them vnder and in whom Christ the chief head of all vseth in all necessary knowledge to giue answer And as the felon knewe well that there was an other iudge beside god and appealed not to him as though before him he should haue ben acquitted and proued not guilty but onelie to gaine a longer time of life and libertie so doe I dout not our aduersaries the protestants And trulie to both thiese kynde of men being bothe theeues th'one sort doing violence to the body the other to the soule if such pleas might be allowed howe so euer they be coloured with the name of Christ betwene them both they would freelie robbe the body and murther the soule But let vs now examine this reason of theirs whereof they ar wont so much to triumphe Christ is head of the church Ergo the pope is not Ergo it c●a haue no other head That Christ is the head of the church we graunted before and none of our syde did euer yet deny yt But as it is most manifest that Christ him self is the worcker of all his sacraments for he baptizeth he forgiueth sinnes he consecrateth his blessed body and bloud he ioineth together in matrimony the man and his wife and yet forasmuch as he should nedes departe out of this worlde and could not alwaies dwell with vs after a corporall manner he hath chosen ministres to dispense those his giftes by And we saye and no fault found therewith that the priest his ministre baptizeth that he forgiueth sinnes that he consecrate●h his most pre●ious body and bloud So after the same manner and for the same cause that is to say because he could not be alwayes present with vs in such sort as we might see him and speake with him face to face to be resolued at his mouth of such doubtes and questions as should ar●se emongest vs he left vs also one that in that his absence should gouern and rule his whole churche He remaineth neuerthelesse head thereof he ruleth he reigneth he exerciseth his power and authorite in the same but yet by man his ministre whome for that cause most aptly the Scholasticall writers haue termed ca●●● min●●●eriale that is to saye a head but yeat by the reason of his seruice and ministerie vnder an other that is Christ ●ho is onelie absolutely simply and without all relation to any other the head thereof Not as though he wer not hable to rule the same without any such help or instrument which he could haue doen also in the olde lawe where his pleasure was that the people should resort to the chief priest to be resolued in all doutes arising apon the lawe and had no more nede of help then then he hath now but for that this waye it hath pleased hym to 〈◊〉 his ex●eding great loue towards mankind 〈…〉 of emongest men such as he will execute 〈…〉 worlde 〈◊〉 as he will vse as his mouth to 〈◊〉 the secretes of his hol●e pleasure to vs and f●●ally such as should represent to vs his owne parson Because Ch●●st●s king of all kinges and lord of all lord●● because if it so pleased him he could rule all this worlde much better then it is ruled without the help of any other whereof he hath his absolute power considered no nede● shall we therefore say that there be not nor nede to be any kynges here in ●●●the When S. Paule called the man the head of the woman denied he therefore Christ to be her head Kinge Saul when he was called by the prophet Samuel caput in tribubus Israël the head of the tribues of Israel was god thinck you excluded that he should not be their head To vse examples more familier th'archebishop of Cauntorbury is the head of the bishoprick and diocesse of London as he is of all the bishoprickes within his prouince and yet can not a man infer apon this that therefore the B. of London is not the head of that his diocesse But Christ hath no suche nede our aduersaries crye still to haue any man to be in his stede to succede him in the whole enheritance Nam Christum semper adesse eccle siae suae vicario homine qui ex asse in integrum ●uccedat non ●gere these be their very wordes in their apologie Here would I like a frinde aduertise them that for ther pooer honesties sake they harp not to much on this string left by their so doing they comme as nere to the heresie of Suenkfeldius as he whom in their apologie they falselie sclaunder therewith is far bothe from that and all other For Suenkfeldius emongest other his abhominable heresies hath also this in my opiniō the chiefest that we ought to banish vtterly from emongest vs all scripture and as Hosius writeth of him thys heresie of hys to derogate from the scriptures all auctoritie he went also about to proue bi scripture But howe I praie you good readers By what reason thinck you would he haue proued this diuelish and most absurde doctrine Beleue me or rather your owne iudgements seing and perceiuing most plainely that I lie not by the self same reasons that our aduersareis doe vse to proue that Christes churche here in earth can haue vnder him no head or chief gouernour to gouern the same Thow must not be parfect in the scriptures saith this stincking heretike Swenckfield But whie because forsooth we must be taught at gods mouth because his worde teacheth truly the scripture is not his worde but dead lettres and no more accompte to be made of them then of other creatures emongest the which they ar to be reconed We must loke to be taught frō heauen not out of bookes The holie ghost vseth to cōme frō aboue without the help of meanes as hearing preaching or reading the scriptures Thie●e be that wicked heretike his folish and vnsauery persuasions And what other thing is it I praie you good readers
murdering his people youre preachers riding with their pistolettes at their saddle bowe encouraging their souldiors to this holie battaile ageinst their owne kinge What is it elles then a moste strong reason of the naughtines of your religion seing that in all the course of Christes ghospell hethertoe we neuer coulde finde anie one such exāple of Christe or his Apostles to be folowed So that no lesse was it trulie then merilie saide of one that how euer S. Paule and Beza agreed in other thinges yeat herein theie were far wide that the one conuerted the Gentils by epistles the other labourred to peruerte the Frenche men by pistolettes LAST of all beside the causes and reasons before alleaged confer I beseche yow with your selfe the present state wherein we nowe liue with that of oure for fathers not yeat fullie fortie yeares ago So shall yow I put no doubte seing the effecte that bothe the doctrines haue wroughte be able a greate deale the better to iudge of the goodnes of the same Beholde if yowe can for teares the miserable face of youre natiue countrey sometimes so long as it had not yet tasted of your wicked and poisoned doctrine to the moste florishing common weale in the whole worlde nothing inferior The subiect in those daies loued his prince with feare and feared him with loue The vassall was to his lorde loyall the seruant to his master obedient and faithefull Euerie man helde him content with his vocation no man was curiouse to meddle in an others Charitie simplicitie sobrietie so reigned vniuersallie that of vs that time might welbe called the golden age of which the poetes dreamed But oh lorde god after that olde serpent who neuer since the beginning hath ceassed to practise and exercise his hatred towardes mankinde had nowe enfected vs once againe with a newe apple after that first Luther and then Caluin had set their feete on Englishe grounde it is a worlde to see howe sodenlie all thiese thinges wer changed and as theie neuer had bene turned vpside downe The loue that was so loyall of the subiect turned into seruile feare and treason as occasion serueth the faithe of the vassall or tenaunt to his lorde in to frauand disceite the obedience of the seruaunt in to cotempt the quiet contentation of euerie man with his owne calling in to that busie bodie curiositie in other mennes matters Finallie enuie and malice haue taken vp charities place fraude and sotteltie simplicities and vice dwelleth where vertue was wont Yea euen yet of this will all men beare me witnesse if anie sparckle of this good ordre remaine with them it is to be founde which hate youre doctrine moste That such a chaunge in oure manners hath chaunced youre selfe well I wot the thinge is so plaine can not denie Hereapon will yowe demurre with vs that your doctrine hath not bene the cause thereof and that I vse a paralogismus à non causa vt causa to deface yowe with all The contrarie hereof shall appeare by examining in fewe wordes some such partes of the same as I doubte not haue wrought this chaunge Yow teache that man is from the beginning predestinate by god to be either saued for euer or eternallie dāned and that this ordre once taken doe what he will to the contrarie liue he neuer so vprightelie on the one side or lose he the bridle to all mischief neuer so much on the other that yeat finallie his vertuouse life that is yow faie so predestinate to be damned shall not be able to defend him therefro no more thē th'others wicked behaueour shall haue the power to remoue him from the glorie of heauen prepared for him On this fundation thus once laide yo we grounde an other absurditie and to mainteine the first yowe teache that man hath no free will to choose either good or bad but that all that he dothe he is forced to doe maugre him selfe be it righte or wronge laufull or vnlaufull if it be good to satisfie the eternall decree that he maie be saued which dothe it and is predestinate theretoe If it be euell that it maie likewise be a meane towardes his damnation prepared for him And as one inconuenience is comonlie the mother of manie to mainteine this yowe ardriuen to mounte one degree higher and with Melanc thon to saie although he afterwarde recanted the same that god as in the good man he is the author of all good so in the euell he is the wor●er of all euell not faithe he permissiuè by suffring them so to doe but potestatiuè euen by his owne power and working and so by iust consequence to affirme with your maister ●aluin that god is the author of their damnation who ar damned as in his Institutions is to be seene Yow teache also that by onelie faithe we besaued that we must here in this worlde take oure selues alwaies for certeine of goddes grace and fauour without anie manner of doubte or mistrust whether we be in the same or no that good worckes such as god giueth vs the grace to doe merite towardes oure iustification nothing at all with such like The catholikes on the other side teache the people that theie notwithstanding goddes predestinatiō of the good and his prescience of the damnation of the euell and reprobate take neuerthelesse good heede to them selues and walcke vprightelie in that vocation whereunto god hathe called them seing that there is none so reprobate in goddes forsight that maie not so behaue him selfe by gods assistance that he maie be saued as the mouthe of almightie god when he saide to cursed Cain If thow doe well shalt thowe not receaue well most plainelie dothe witnes nor anie so predestinate but that he maie so ordre him selfe that he maie not be predestinate and so be damned The catholikes teache that man hath giuen to him by allmightie god free will either by the embracing of his grace freelie offred to all that demaunde the same to be a worcker with him towardes his owne saluation either elles by the refusall thereof to chose eternall dānation This confirme theie by the example also of Cain who notwithstanding his being in goddes sighte from the beginning a reprobate and cast awaie yeat to declare that that forknowledge worcked no constreint almightie god saide in expresse wordes that th' appetite of sinning was in his power and that he shoulde be hable to rule it Theie teache that all goodnes what so euer it is commeth from aboue giuen to man for the calling and praieng therefore that all euell is of oure selues by assenting to the diuells maliciouse suggestions Theie teache with S. Iames the apostle that faithe withoute worckes is vaine and to no purpose that faithe must ioine with worckes by meanes whereof it is made perfect that man is not iustified by faithe alone Theie teache that so long as we be pilgrimes and trauailers in this miserable life we maie not
sit vs downe and make oure accompt as though we wer certeinlie sure that we shalbe saued but that we must still labour and worcke oure owne saluation cum timore tremore with feare and trembling Theie teache men that for their sinnes theie must not onelie lament and be hartelie forie which yow saie suffiseth but that if time also and leisor theretoe serue theie must take by penance vpon themselues vengeance as i● wer therefore Theie teache also with S. Austen that to confesse oure sinnes to god onelieis not ynoughe but that we must laie them also in the lap of the prieste a mortall man and a sinner as greate perhappes as we ar And this remission of sinnes by confession and penance doe Origen and Cirill call a harde and a peinefull waie And trulie so is it and so shoulde it be and all yeat little ynough and a greate deale to little toe to bridle that wilde and vntamed nature of oures from sinning Now see yow I doute not M. Iuell whose doctrine hathe wroughte this disordre in the worlde or if yowe doe not listen I beseche yowe a little to youre fellowes disputing after this sorte vpon their maisters good enstructions and I trust yowe shall If we be so predestinate saie theie to be saued or damned that by no meanes it can be otherwise if good worckes be nothing auaileable to the doers if onelie faithe doe iustifie then let vs cast them at the papistes heades that teache them To what ende serue theie that neither can in Christes deathe saue vs from hell nor helpe vs to heauen Or whie labour we at all to doe well if we haue not oure will free to be the worcker thereof If sinne be so easelie forgiuen as oure maisters beare vs in hande if one thought serue vs to repent our life if penance be nedelesse if we nede not to confesse our sinnes to the prieste which onelie thing made vs for worldlie shame full often to forbeare the doing of manie a horrible crime then will we suerlie forbeare no ynche of our pleasure whilest we ar here then will we score on goddes mercie and recon with him for all at the last Thus much although theie saie not in expresse wordes yet speake theie in their wicked deedes And therefore seing in the comparison of these fewe pointes betwene yow and vs I finde so manie occasions giuen by youre doctrine to this disordre seing there be no such to be founde in oures but that contrariewise all that we ●aughte and yowe woulde ouerthrowe tended to the contrarie I can saie no more but to me it ●emeth a cause sufficient to abhorre the same These be the causes that haue kepte me in the catholike faithe these be theie that maie iustlie call yowe thither againe from whence yowe ar straied and will I nothing doubte if yowe faile not to youre selfe For trulie if yow will but make an exchaunge of pride with humilitie if yow will laye downe that proude pecockes taile of youres esteme youre selfe somwhat lesse and other men somewhat more yow shall easely gaine againe that quiet hauen of Christes churche from whence the blustring tempestes of pride droue yowe in to the maine sea and daungerouse goulf of heresies Be not ashamed yow which haue hethertoe kepte companie with wicked heretikes to folowe in youre returne the example of some droncken soule who hauing perhappes in his dronckennesse leaped some daūgerouse leape or passed some other notable perill which no man hauing his right wittes woulde haue doen in giuing the aduenture whereapon the oddes was greate tha● he shoulde haue miscaried being broughte by his frindes on the morrowe sobre to the daunger that he escaped the nighte before being dron●ken and tolde of his aduenture first lifteth vp his hart and handes to almightie god whome he than●k●th moste humblie for the preferuing of him from so imminent and present a daunger nexte he maketh an earnest and solemne vowe to vse after that such temperancie and sobrietie as he will neuer by the contrarie minis●re anie occasion to fall in to the like If yowe had not bene as dron●ken M. Iuell with pride as euer was anie with wine woulde yow one emongest so manie of your side haue made this chalenge which of the rest none woulde attempt to doe woulde yow haue euer called it blasphemie to saie that Christe is in the Masse offred vp to god his father which S. Austen affirmeth and Chrisosto● faith that Christe cōmaunded to be done woulde yow haue euer alleaged this weake and feble reason to haue proued youre saing because contrariewise Christe presenteth vp vs and maketh vs a sweete oblation in the fighte of god his father whereas yowe finde in S. Austē Sacerdos est ipse offerens ips● oblati● Christe is the prieste him selfe which offreth this sacrifice and the oblation which is offred and in Chrisostomes Masse Tu es offerens oblatus suscipiens distributus Thow art he which offr●st and art offered which receiuest and art distributed By which places it appeareth that it is no such absurditie as yow woulde haue it to ●eme that Christe shoulde in this sacrament bothe offer and be offred This being therefore a cleare case that yow haue showed your selfe in this chalenge of youres a man if not dronken trulie star●ke mad loke on the daungers that in the meane season by the goodnes of god yow haue bene preserued from looke I saie vpon and beholde that depe pitte in to the which with so manie heretikes before yowe had not the mercifull hande of god staide yowe and holden yow vp yowe had long ere this fallen Thancke him of his goodnes therefore which hath so mercifullie borne with yowe and not taken yow as he mighte if he woulde at the worst Propose for the loue of god with youre selfe neuer hereafter to commit the like I wot not whether to call it either dron●ken or franticke parte If the causes aboue rehersed doe nothing moue you thereto if the feare of god if your owne cōscience pricke yowe not let yet this persuade you to leaue those vaine bragges at the which youre friendes blushe wise mē laughe and the aduersaries of youre doctrine them selues vtterlie contemne at the least for that youre impudencie being discouered your credite is lost and youre estimatiō gone so that ye shall but waste wordes in vaine which euell spent might better be spared Crie oute as Dioscorus that heretike did being condemned by the councell of Calcedon as longe as yowe list euē till youre uoice if you will faile you Ego testimonia habeo sanctorū patrū A thanasi● Gregorij c. Ego cū patribus cijcior Ego defendo patrum dogmata non transgreaior in aliquo I h●ue for my parte the testimonie of the holie fathers A thanasius Gregorius I am cast out with the fathers I defende their doctrine I violate no parte thereof Brag with Eunomius the heretike that yowe