and whether he knewe them to be true He answered that he wrote his booke as he traueiled and that he coulde not we knewe cary a librarie about with him and therefore he was forced to giue credite to his notes We said it was more credible that he brought the saide booke ouer with him readie framed by the common and long conference of him selfe and his fellowe Iesuites at conuenient opportunitie suddenly to be published rather then that he did write it in his trauels hauing so much besides to do being destitute of his librarie as he said which is the vsual maner as we said of you all hūting thereby for popular praise of speedie writing But when howsoeuer you did write your booke said we you haue vsed ouermuch boldnes so cōfidently to publish in print these slaūderous reportes of such men as you haue named being not able to make any proofe of that wherof you accuse them And vpon these such good grounds of yours you doe most vnreasonably and vntruly charge vs all as those that haue rased mangled and spoyled the body of the holy Bible The third testimonie or proofe alleaged against vs by Master Campion in his booke is taken out of the Centuries written by Illiricus and others which booke being giuen into his handes and the like demaunde made as before he would neither reade nor once open the booke neither yet made he any answere thereto knowing that he could make no exception to the print as he did before to Luthers bookes seeing that booke was neuer printed but once And besides where they as Historiographers had only set down the iudgements of S. Hierome Eusebius Epiphanius and of other ancient fathers concerning this Epistle of Saint Iames of Tobias the bookes of Macchabees c he knewe that he could not thereby proue his assertion that they suddenly cut away so many goodly partes of the holy Bible much lesse that we had so done as he doeth in his booke charge vs. For which causes chiefly he would not as much as once open those bookes and for the same cause he woulde not looke vpon Kemnisius whome and vs by him he had likewise falsely charged When Master Campion could not shew these words out of any of those books by him alleaged nor any good matter to proue thē nor vs suddenly to haue rased mangled and spoyled the holy Scriptures as he chargeth vs of desperation in our cause to haue done then did we shewe him that we had not nowe suddenly as he vntruely reported cut off any part or line of the body of the holy Scriptures but made onely a difference betweene those bookes of the Scriptures that be commonly called Canonicall and of all men be taken for vndoubtedly true from those that haue bene long ago suspected of many and are called Apocrypha according as was before set downe by the ancient Doctors of the Church aboue a thousand yeres since more And for the proofe hereof we alleaged the testimonie of Saint Hierome In Catalogo Scriptorum ecclesiasticorum where he thus writes of the Epistle of Saint Iames named by Master Campion The Epistle of Saint Iames is sayd to be published by some other man vnder his name And of the second Epistle of Saint Peter he saith in the same booke that it is denied of many to be his by reason of the difference of the stile To this Master Campion answered that Hierome spake not of his owne iudgement but reported what others sayde of them We answered if Saint Hierome so reported of other mens sayings of those Epistles and did not him selfe gainesay it that it was a manifest token that he did not greatly mislike their sayings And seeing in S. Hieromes time and before those Epistles were doubted of you doe vs great wrong sayd we to charge vs that we haue suddenly cut them off from the body of the Bible who in deede notwithstanding the former doubtes of them gladly receaue and allowe them We alleaged againe S. Hierome In Prologo Galeato et Epistola ad Paulinum where hee sheweth his owne iudgement what bookes of the Scriptures of the olde Testament are to be taken for Canonicall and which haue bene doubted of which Epistles quoth we haue bene written and printed in all Bibles by the space of these thousand yeres and more to warne al readers of that difference of the said Apocrypha from the true Canonicall and to arme them as it were against the errour of confounding the Canonical Scriptures with these Apocrypha for the which cause as it seemeth hee also nameth that Prologue Galeatum as an helmet for defence against that error But nowe sitchence the Tridentine Councill some Popish printers haue left out the sayd Prologue and Epistle of S. Hierome who yet declareth this his iudgement likewise in his Preface to the first booke of Esdras also Sherwin one of Master Campions fellowes answered to these allegations that Hierome did Iudaizare and more was not ◅ayd to these places We also alleadged Eusebius who hauing made rehearsall of those bookes of the newe Testament which be vndoubtedly true nameth also such as were gainesayd and writes thus Quibus vero contradicitur c. those bookes that are gainesayde though they be knowen to many be these The Epistle which is attributed to S. Iames the Epistle of Iude the latter of Peter the second and third of Iohn And the same Eusebius in another place affirmeth plainely the sayd Epistle of S. Iames to be a counterfaite or bastard Epistle To this authoritie they said that it was true that he so said and as we alleadged them and that when he wrote it was lawfull for any man to doubt of those bookes that he called Apocrypha but seeing by the Church that was by the Councill of Carthage now also by the Councill of Trident they were receiued for Canonicall it was blasphemie they said to doubt of the authoritie of those bookes To that was replied that the Synode of Laodicea helde them for Apocrypha Yea said they but that Synode was not generall No more was that of Carthage said we No said they but that of Carthage was after confirmed by a generall Councill in Trullo So was quoth we the Synode of Laodicea which helde them for Apocrypha confirmed also by the same generall Councill in Trullo as there is to be seene But howe doth this agree that not long before you did saye absolutely that S. Iames epistle was written by the same spirit that S. Iohns Gospell was written with and now you ground the credit of S. Iames Epistle and the other vpon these Councils But said we these Councils had no authoritie to make any maner writings Canonical that was not before Canonicall For by the iudgement of S. Augustine in many places of his bookes there are two things requisite to proue any writing Canonicall one is the testimonie of the Church in which the authour liued
when he wrote The other is the continuall contestation of the Churches succeeding To this effect writeth S. Augustine and so be all latter Churches barred from authoritie to make any writings canonicall scripture specially those that haue of olde bene doubted of They may testifie what the olde Churches before them haue done as we nowe doe Hereunto they saide againe that it was blasphemie after those Councils to call those bookes Apocrypha or to doubt of the authoritie of them It is rather most horrible blasphemie said we to make humane writings equall with the Canonicall scriptures as of late your Tridentine Councill hath done and as your Pope being but one man hath made his Decretal epistles then with S. Hierome Eusebius and other ancient godly fathers to call those bookes Apocrypha which they do so call And we said that notwithstanding those Councils Caietanus their Popes Cardinall thought it no blasphemie who in the ende of his expositions vpon the olde testament in very plaine wordes maketh the same difference of the bookes of the scriptures doeth not onely alowe the iudgement of Hierome but addeth further that all writitings yea of bishops of Rome them selues of whome he nameth some must be brought to S. Hieroms rule They vtterly reiected Cardinall Caietanus because as they said he was but one man against all the Church We said you of your side will not be charged with the wordes of others though they be the Popes Cardinals and yet you doe thinke it reason that we should be charged with euery worde that hath slipped from Luther Nay you charge him and vs by him with that which you can neuer proue that he did write or speake Hart said further that Caietanus was a good scholemā and traueled in that course with commendation but when hee began to become an expositor of the scriptures said he then he lost his grace and credit We answered if they thought it reason to charge vs with all the sayings of Luther or of any other we might by good and great reason charge them with the sayings of so great learned a Cardinall of Rome as Caietanus was Last of all wee came to the place of S. Augustine in his second booke De doctrina Christiana Which Campion and his fellowes gladly receiued because they said it made for them and not for vs. For saide they S. Augustine rehearseth those bookes for Canonicall scriptures which you call Apocrypha To this wee answered that they shoulde rather charge Saint Hierome and Eusebius and other auncient fathers who doe call them Apocrypha And S. Augustine in that place rehearsing the order of the bookes of scriptures though said we he differ somwhat from Eusebius and S. Hierome in shewe of wordes yet hee doeth in deede agree with them For where they deuide the bookes of the scriptures into three sorts that is Canonicall Apocrypha and feigned or vntrue Augustine deuideth them into Canonicall and Apocrypha onely and then he deuideth the Canonicall bookes into two sortes that is those that be certainely true which we with S. Hierome and Eusebius do call properly Canonicall and those that haue bene doubted of which Eusebius and S. Hierome do call Apocrypha And S. Augustine nameth those that be vtterly vntrue Apocrypha which Eusebius calleth doubtfull feigned and forged And this may be gathered out of Augustine him selfe in diuers places whereof we haue noted some And albeit Augustine calleth those bookes Canonicall yet he giueth not the like authoritie to them as namely to the Maccabees and to the other of that sort as he doeth to those that be Christes the Lords witnesses as he nameth them which be these that are named properly Canonicall Here would they not admit in any wise that the worde Canonicall was aequiuocum or of diuers significations in diuers places but that wheresoeuer that worde was founde it brought all bookes so called vnder one kinde Much time was spent here about and the matter was much argued on Master Campion and his fellowes part At the last Master Campion was desired by vs to reade the chapter in that Canon law beginning In Canonicis which Gratian takes out of this place of Augustine and first that hee would reade the rubrick which he seemed both to do And Pound one of his companions sitting by who with his importunitie impertinent speaches had often interrupted the course of the conference saide Father Campion let them reade their places them selues Yet at the length Master Campion read it and it is thus Inter Canonicas scripturas Decretales Epistolae connumerantur which after much desiring he englished also The decretall Epistles are numbred together among the Canonicall Scriptures Whereupon one of vs saide you charge vs with blasphemie for naming those bookes Apocrypha which Saint Hierome Eusebius and other ancient holy fathers doe so name but here may you see most horrible blasphemie in deede in the Canonical lawe of your Pope which matcheth his Decretall Epistles that is meere fables with the Maiestie of the Canonicall Scriptures as he doeth in this distinction and sundry other places whereby you may see to what point this boldnesse of making mens writings Canonicall Scriptures is come Then saide we to M. Campion do you hold that Popes decrees for Canonical scriptures as you do the bookes of Moyses and the Prophets He answered no and graunted then that the worde Canonicall was aequinocum or of diuers significations which before they all did so constantly denie Whereupon we sayde that we had some good hope of Master Campion for that he blushed And we sayde further that Cardinall Caietanus in the place before alleadged sayeth expressely that S. Augustine placed those books in the Canon of maners but not in the Canon of doctrine whereby he plainely declareth that the word Canonicall is aequiuocum After this he was desired to reade the text of that Chapter and there he founde and could not denie but that the place of Augustine was vntruely reported by Gratian and by manifest corruption drawē altogether from the meaning of Augustine For where S. Augustine saith that those Scriptures are to be taken for Canonicall which the most or greatest part of Christian Churches so take among the which those Churches be which deserued to haue Apostolique Seas and to receiue Epistles from the Apostles these wordes of S. Augustine are chaunged and in the place of the Apostolique Seas is put the Apostolique Sea meaning the Church of Rome and those Churches which deserued to receaue Epistles from the said Church of Rome which is cleane contrary to S. Augustines wordes and meaning Both often before and here specially Master Campion and his fellowes seemed to be desirous to dispute vpon some pointes of religion rather then to continue in this examination of his booke which we said we woulde not at afternoone refuse but the forenoone qd we is so farre spēt that we must at this time make
Queenes Maiestie was it I pray you so outragious in the Latine tongue as seuerally to admonish Master Campion him selfe without the vnderstanding of the common auditorie for one of vs to say Qui hic mos est mi homo Quis hic gestus Et loqueris pultas fores Gloriosus miles Proijcis ampullas sesquipedalia verba We may bee bolde to saye that considering Master Campions bragging in English and the admonition of the other in Latine there was no such outrage as they doe note But this they much disdaine that he sayde once Os impudens Truth it is but vpon his often and fierce affirmation that all the printed bookes of Luther in Englande were false and vpon Poundes odious interpellations as we knowe you to be a good Terence man and his most scornefull lookes through his fingers staring vpon him cōtinually whiles he was reasoning with Master Campion to put him out of his memorie hee being offended both with Poundes mockings wordes and lookes and with Campions shameles sayings brake out with Os impudens as he thinketh most deseruedly on their partes Yea but he vsed the word obgannire or oggannire Hee denieth not but comming by commandement to conferre with Campion onely when two or three of them spake together and many other of them muttered and sometime brake out into scornefull laughter he sayd Siccine tam multos oggannire obstrepere This is the rage and railing wherewith the Pamphleters do charge him They say that he by a Commissioners checke put the priests that would haue spoken and Master Sherwin to silence The trueth is that though we were sent onely to Master Campion at that time yet others did speake sometime and Master Sherwin specially very much almost as much as did Master Campion Whereupon not we but Master Lieutenant told him that he should be dealt with another time and willed him then to quiet himselfe Hereupon it is that the Pamphleters say wee should haue vsed them as the Queenes prisoners Wee say they should haue remembred and behaued them selues as becommed prisoners and not as Ruffians in all libertie or licentiousnes rather as they in deede and specially Master Campion in the forenoone behaued himself And yet the Pamphleters are not ashamed to write The Catholikes vsed no such wordes as did the Protestants and one of them specially but being passing modest went directly and soberly toche cause And againe God gaue Master Campion speaking very mildely as hee euer vsed such modestie in answering Thus write they c. Then surely his speaking did much differ from his writing as is to bee seene by that his chalenge and booke the most bragging and vaine glorious that euer was written Nowe Sherwin hath his contrarie commendation of whome they write thus But Master Sherwin like him selfe with excellent courage spake Master Sherwin here notably tooke the aduantage Crosse blowes were continually giuen to the Protestantes by Master Campion and Master Sherwin Master Campion and Master Sherwin framed their reasons exceedingly well with many such like commendations But of vs they write The Protestantes shufled vp the matter They answered to an argument of the Catholikes there be foure termes in this syllogisme and no further answere Silence here was their answere M. Daye hauing belike of olde collection an other place in store spent much time in that impertinent question The Deane of Paules when he could doe naught els grinded with his teeth for despite rage And so the Catholikes by the iudgement of those that were not wholly wedded to will did get the goale Scilicet But the Pamphleters labour about nothing more then to deliuer Master Campion from the note and blemish of ignorance in the Greeke tongue whereof one of them writeth thus The Deane of Paules and Master Beale shewed great ostentation towardes Campion in offring him a Greeke Testament to reade a text of Paul To whome Master Beale said Graecum est non potest legi calling vpon him to reade if hee could c to the others vtter defacing if he could haue procured it But our good Lord gaue the other such modestie in answering him as al indifferent persons were edified by it And refusing there to reade wherby Beale and the rest were flatly then persuaded it was for lacke of skill in the ende it fell out that Saint Basill was offered him in Greeke and the booke holden him by a minister wherein he read skilfully and by the hearing of all the auditorie confessed the text to be as they alleaged it answering it as before And withall quoth he let this man witnesse whether I can reade Greeke or no who in open hearing answered Uery well Whereupon being confounded We confesse quoth the Deane of Paules you can reade Greeke whereat some might haue blushed if they had had any such good humour in them Thus writeth one of them Another of them reporteth the matter thus It happened in processe of their disputations by occasion incident there was talke of a text of Scripture which forsoth must bee viewed by Master Campion to make the matter most plausible as the Protestāts imagined they caused a Greeke testamēt to be brought vnto him which he refused to take saying merily to his contrarie it shal be yours At which doing many laughed condemning him for ignorance of the tongue and therefore gestingly by the Protestants it was said Graecum est non potest legi It is Greeke perhaps it cannot be read Whereunto Master Campion gaue no answere but rested at the matter as a man vnable to reade Greeke or to vnderstand the same But it chaunced not long after that the Protestantes as they had prepared before were to alleage a place out of Saint Basil the Greeke doctor and againe thinking to giue the Catholikes another bob they commanded againe the booke of that ancient father to be giuen to Master Campion that he might reade whome before they derided as not able to doe the same But he tooke the booke and hauing one of their ministers at his elbowe both read and gaue the sense of the writer and bad him beare witnes that hee was able to reade and vnderstande Greeke whereat there was some admiration made among the Protestantes and he was demanded why hee did not so before who mildely answered that the print was ouer small Why saide they had you not declared so much before that had bene sufficiēt The like triall they made of an other Catholike to wit Maister Sherwin who by report of his fellowes and companions is very well seene in the Greeke and Hebrewe tongues yet hee tooke the booke and viewed it but openly did not reade which was imagined that he did to be accounted ignorant in the tongue or rather for that he was willed to holde his peace for that there should bee other times to talke Thus they write of this matter farre more largely and earnestly then of any other But the truthe is that when we had read the
accidents are not that he spake of Campion This is a booke and yet I see not the substance of a booke but whitenesse and other accidents Fulke Who would say that whitenes is the booke none but a madde man neither will any say that whitenesse is the body of Christ or called the body of Christ. Therefore by the word of heauenly bread and of the Sacrament he meaneth the whole sacrament I see you haue nothing but shamelesse shiftes against so cleare authoritie of your owne Canon law speaking against you Campion If you dare let me shewe Augustine and Chrysostome if you dare Fulke Whatsoeuer you can bring I haue answered already in writing against other of your side and yet if you thinke you can adde any thing put it in writing and I will answere it Campion Prouide me ynke and paper and I will write Fulke I am not to prouide you ynke and paper Campion I meane procure me that I may haue libertie to write Fulke I knowe not for what cause you are restrained of that libertie and therefore I will not take vpon me to procure it Campion Sue to the Queene that I may haue libertie to oppose I haue bene nowe thrise opposed it is reason I should oppose once Fulke I will not become a suter for you Camp Sue to the Queene for me it is but an easie suite you being in such credit with your Prince may if you dare procure this matter Catholikes of their prince can obtaine a greater matter and are not you Protestants in such credit with your Prince that you can obteine so small a matter Fulke We meane not to trie our credit in this matter But if you write any thing I will answere you in writing Campion Procure it Fulke It were to small purpose I haue answered already Heskins and Saunders which are like to bring as much as you Campion I am not worthy to cary their bookes after them And you your selfe Sir may be scholer to either of them Goade If Christ be present in his naturall body he must be present in his true body But Christ is not present in his true body Ergo not in his naturall body Camp I deny your minor He is present in his true body Goade A true body must haue the properties of a true body But this hath not the properties of a true body Ergo it is not a true body Camp I deny againe your minor It hath the properties of a true body Goade AmoÌ„gst the properties of a true body this is one special to be circuÌ„scribed in place not to be in many places at once But in your transubstantiation Christes body is made to be in many yea in infinite places at once Ergo it hath not the properties of a true body Campion It is in respect of a miracle not seene with eye but with our faith Goade Now you runne againe to miracle It hath bene before shewed you out of Augustine that there is no miracle in the Sacrament and your selfe sayd that miracles are now ceased Campion It is a great miracle to conuert a sinner yea greater then to make the worlde and this kinde of miracle is dayly Goade Now you would go from the matter this is not properly a miracle But to the purpose Answere the argument That which is in many places at once is not a true body But as you teach Christ in the Sacrament is bodily in many places at once Ergo not a true body Campion The propertie of the fire is to burne yet the three children in the fire 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…ed Wiâ—… you therâ—…e 〈◊〉 that it was truely fire Goade That was in deede and properly a miracle whereof the Scripture testifieth which visibly was seene Campion So is this a miracle Goade Beside it is not sensible which must be in a miracle There is no ground of the worde for it And faith must be grounded on the worde of God Campion The word teacheth that God is omnipotent Goade You that wil reason from Gods omnipotencie must prooue also his will Omnia quae voluit fecit Hee hath done all things whatsoeuer he would Camp Nay you must proue it is not his will Goade I wil proue it out of Theodoret. Dialo 3. qui inscribitur impatibilis writing of the glorified body of Christ after his resurrection Non est mutatum in naturam diuinitatis sed post resurrectionem est quidem immortale ù corruptione interitu alienum diuina gloria plenum sed tamen corpus est quod habet propriam circumscriptionem The body of Christ is not changed into the nature of his diuinitie but after his resurrection it is in deede a body immortall free from corruption and ful of diuine glory but yet it is a body that hath a proper circumscription Campion When it pleaseth Christ to worke a miracle he is not bound to the natural properties he doth not alwayes practise all his properties His body ascending into heauen had the true properties of a body yet did not then practise them It is against the naturall propertie of a body to ascend vpward Goade This ascention of Christes body being an article of our faith is grounded vpon the worde that his body was taken vp neuerthelesse remayned a true body circumscribed in place Augustine sayth we must not take away the trueth of Christs body Epist. ad Dard. 57. Cauendum ne ita diuinitatem astruamus hominis vt veritatem corporis auferamus cui profecto immortalitatem dedit naturam non abstulit Wee must take heede that we doe not so maintayne the Godhead of Christ being man that we take away the trueth of his body whereunto hee gaue immortalitie but tooke not away the nature Campion You neede not bring these places I graunt that Christ hath a true body But you may as well deny the ascension of Christ being against the propertie of a true body to ascend vpwarde Goade I answered before that this is an article of our faith grounded vpon the expresse worde of God And because we do beleeue by the word that Christes body is ascended and sitteth at the right hand of God and from thence shal come to iudge therefore we cannot beleeue the coÌ„trary that Christ is yet present on earth So Augustine reasoneth in the same Epistle Christus Iesus vbique est per id quod Deus in coelo autem per id quod homo Spacia locorum tolle corporibus nusquam erunt quia nusquam erunt nec erunt Christ iesus is euery where as he is God but as he is man he is in heauen Take away space of places from bodies they shall be in no place and because in no place they shall haue no being at all Campion I thinke I haue answered sufficiently he is present not naturally but miraculously Goade Why then ye destroy the propertie of a true bodie and so consequently take away the trueth of a body Campion I grant the
I teache euery where in euery Church That he wrote and taught in one Church he wrote and taught in another and therefore 2. Cor. 1. he saith Nam gloriatio nostra est testimoniuÌ„ conscientiae nostrae c. Non enim alia scribimus vobis quam quâ—… legitis agnoscitis For this is our glorie euen the testimonie of our conscience c. For we write no other things vnto you then which you reade and knowe in deede Againe 2. Cor. 2. Quales sumus sermone per epistolas cum absumus tales sumus cum adsumus facto The same that we are in speach by our Epistles when we are absent such we are also when we are present Camp The same no contrarietie For there were afterwards many scriptures that were not then written Nowe therefore could they teache all thinges This Epistle was not then written and diuers others The meaning is they taught one Faith one Christ one doctrine but hee speaketh not of the Scriptures Walker He taught the same things that Moses and the Prophetes taught Quales sumus sermone per Epistolas tales facto Camp I graunt the same testimonies out of Moses and the Prophetes and Paul was as stout in speaking as in doing But what proueth this against me For he sayd more then he wrote Walker He sayd no more then is written in the Scripture Camp It is true that the Apostles proued all that they preached out of the scriptures out of the Lawe and the Prophetes and thereby iustified their preaching and yet that parte of the newe Testament which was afterwards written was not superfluous therefore sufficiencie employeth not that it must be expressed but that it may be gathered Walker You are one absent and another present You would bring in Idolatrie vnder the name of your traditions but I shew you that whatsoeuer we are to receaue it must be in the scripture Camp These are but wordes they neede no answere Walker Well I wil vrge you with matter out of Ambrose 1. Cor. 4. Super verba regnetis vt nos vobiscum regnemus Quicquid ab Apostolis tradituÌ„ non est sceleribus plenum est Whatsoeuer is not taught and deliuered by the Apostles is full of wickednes Camp He disputes against false Apostles and by waye of comparison he seuereth the traditions of Catholiques from those of Heretikes and this he doth to shew the difference of traditions and not to condemne traditions Walker It is an vniuersall proposition that all traditions that came not from the Apostles are full of wickednes but those which they wrote came not from them Ambrose also lib. 3. dc virginibus Nos noua omnia quae Christus non docuit iure damnamus quia sidelibus via Christus est Si igitur Christus non docuit quod docomus etiam nos id detestabile iudicamus We doe iustly condemne all new things which Christ hath not taught because Christ is the way vnto the faithfull If therefore Christ hath not taught that which we teache wee also doe iudge that to bee most detestable Campion This is against false prophetes whereof there were many that then went abrode from place to place teaching many things vnder the names of the Apostles that were none of theirs Walker Uery well So there are things taught by you vnder their names which are none of theirs wherefore we may conclude you to be in the number of false prophetes Christ saith Iohn 15. Omnia quae audiui à patre meo nota feci vobis I haue shewed all things to you which I haue heard of my father He shewed all thinges necessarie to saluation and therefore this is the conclusion Iohn 20. Haec scripta sunt vt vitam habeatis ideo vita consistit in ijs quae scripta sunt These things are written that ye might haue life therefore life consisteth in those things which are written Tertullian de praescriptionibus Haereticorum Apostolos enim domini habemus authores qui nec ipsi quicquam ex suo arbitrio quod inducerent eligerunt sed acceptam à Christo disciplinam fideliter nationibus assignauerunt Itaque etiamsi Angelus de coelis aliter euangelizaret c. We haue the Apostles for our authors who neither themselues chose any thing that they brought in of their owne brayne but they faithfully assigned that discipline which they had receiued from Christ to the nations Therefore albeit an Angell should preach otherwise from heauen c. Campion Christ did teach all and therefore the Apostles writte all that Christ taught Nego argumentum I deny the argument Walker Why Haec scripta sunt vt vitam habeamus These things are written that wee may haue life what neede wee more Campion Enough is written but in such sorte as was sayd before either in generall wordes or speciall either discoursed or touched Walker Although as the Euangelist saith Iohn 21. Multa alia fecit Iesus in conspectu discipulorum suorum quae non sunt scripta in hoc libro Iesus did many other things in the sight of his disciples which are not written in this booke as true it is hee wrought many miracles before his death to declare himselfe to be the sonne of God and after his resurrection to declare that he had a true bodie which both did suffer and was raysed vp agayne And Luke Act. 1. sayth Scripsi tibi Theophile de omnibus quae Christus tum fecit tum docuit I haue written vnto thee o Theophilus concerning all things which Christ both hath done hath taught He saith De omnibus non singulis For then if euery particular worde and act of Christ had bene written the worlde could not haue receiued the volumes of bookes that should haue bene written Iohn 2. 5 9. But these things are written Iohn 20. 9. that ye might beleeue and in beleeuing haue eternall life Wherefore Scrutamini scripturas quia in ijs non alibi vita quaerenda Iohn 5. Searche the scriptures because in them is life and not els where to be sought Charke This you haue beene inforced to graunt that all thinges necessarie to saluation are contained manifestly in the Scriptures Campion I graunt it with my distinction they are either manifestly written or conteined vnder that generall commaundement Obey your prelates Charke To proue that whatsoeuer you teache ought to bee in the written worde of GOD I haue a plaine place out of Tertullian against Hermogenes which also maketh strongly against you His wordes are these Scriptum esse doceat Hermogenis officina si non est scriptum timeat vae illud adijcientibus aut detrahentibus destinatum Let Hermogenes schole shewe that it is written if it be not written let him feare that curse appointed for them which adde or take from the scriptures Campion Where say you is this place of Tertullian Charke In his booke aduersus Hermogenem Camp Aduersus Hermogenem I thinke ye are deceiued there is no such booke in Tertullian
⧠A true report of the Disputation or rather priuate Conference had in the Tower of London with Ed. Campion Iesuite the last of August 1581. Set downe by the Reuerend learned men them selues that dealt therein Whereunto is ioyned also a true report of the other three dayes conferences had there with the same Iesuite Which nowe are thought meete to be published in print by authoritie IMPRINTED AT LONDON by Christopher Barker Printer to the Queenes most excellent Maiestie Ianuarij 1. 1583. ERRATA A. signifieth the first page B. the second The numbers shewe the line  Faulte Correction C. ii a. line last commoda for commoda D. ii a. 25. in the margent Normam Limam D. ii b. 36. both loth D. iiii a. 27. lewd lowd D. iiii b. 19 Proofe processe H. iiii line last by in D d. iiii b. 9. iustified infected To the Reader MAster Campions Booke being at large answered shortly after our conference with him which was concerning certaine points in the beginning of the fayd booke onely and our sayd conference also being partly remembred in the saide answere of his booke though we had immediatly vpon the sayd conference set downe in writing certaine notes of the same out of our fresh memorie to all euents Yet we thought there was no cause the whole booke being confuted why we should publish our dealing with him concerning a fewe pointes in the beginning thereof onely specially Master Campion being now dead and not to replie thereunto himselfe so that we layd aside our notes and without all thought of any publishing of them at all But there hauing bene sithen by others the fauourers of him and his cause partly in print but in written Pamphlets much more dispersed wherein Master Campions surmised glorious conquest against vs is exceedingly set forth and some of them so confidently that in the conclusion thereof the Authour saithe The Catholikes by the iudgement of those that were not wedded wholy to will did get the Goale And againe In my soule I protest that in any indifferent iudgement the aduerse protestaunts were quite confounded and if I were not a Catholique already the onely hearing of that conference would haue made me one Vpon such vntruthes and impudencie of such writers we were partly of our selues enclined and by the often and earnest exhortations of others importuned and by some of great authoritie almost inforced to set downe the true report of the saide conference whereby we trust that all those Catholiques as they woulde be called that haue any sparke of shamefastnesse left may blush for Master Campions sake being so manifestly deprehended in so many lyes so braggingly aduouched and in print in the Lattin tongue published to the worlde Surely we doe thinke our selues and may say in trueth that if we had bene so openly conuicted so many wayes and in such sorte as Master Campion then was we should while we liued be ashamed to shewe our faces And we haue indeede heretofore out of our fresh memories then made reporte of diuers partes of this our conference vnto diuers persons as occasion hath serued and not dissembled that we found not Campion such a man as by his challenge and booke and other mens reportes of him we looked for and that vpon this our conference with him we verely thought the booke published in his name to haue bene none of his But by such Pamphlets as these be and like reports by word his surmised victories against vs were so speedily suread abroade that diuers Gentlemen and others neither vnlearned nor of them selues euill affected gaue not much credite to our sayings of that value is the first report in some eares and heades which hath among other things moued vs not a litle to set downe at the last this our true report of our saide conference vpon hope that trueth in time may take place We doe knowe they will cauill at this as our biting of a dead man whome being aliue they will say we could not all matche But the trueth is we doe defende our selues against the backebitings of many slaunderous reporters who doe yet liue and lurke in euery corner by false reportes and writings continually indeuouring to suppresse or at the least to blemish the trueth vpon euery least occasion offered or sought As first they began so they continue For whereas diuers of vs at diuers times had conference with Campion and his fellowes the time being such that so many of vs as could get leaue when we had once conferred with him his fellowes departed into the countrey from whence we were called and others remaining in the citie assaying whether it might please God that they coulde doe any good with them to their reformation this was foorthwith by reportes and pamphlets euery where so framed and dispersed as though Campion like some great beare or Lyon rather as they woulde haue him seeme had shaken vs all off like cowardly curres one after another But that religion can not long stand that is vnderpropt and stayed by such impudent lyes as amongest many other things may well appeare to all that with indifferencie without foreiudgement will reade and consider our true reporte of the sayd conference Which why we haue not published it before and why we doe publish it nowe we haue shewed the true causes howsoeuer they shall cauill that vpon misliking of our parts we haue not published it hitherto and find fault also that we haue published it nowe Surely we with good conscience may affirme this our report in the substance of matter to be most true though our memorie could not alwayes retaine the order or the very wordes wherein euery sentence was vttered A. Nowell W. Daije A true report of the conference had with Campion and others by the Deane of Paules and the Deane of Windsor in the Tower of London the last of August the 23. yere of the Queenes Maiestie and of the Lord 1581. WE the Deane of Paules the Deane of Windsor being sent to the Tower to haue conference with Master Campion and his fellowes in matters of Religion and by order of Master Lieutenant admitted into the Chappel of the Tower whither the said Campion and others were brought shortly after our meeting sayd to Master Campion that we came thither to the end to do him good if it might please God to giue such good successe howsoeuer he or any other should thinke otherwise of vs. And because it should not seeme to him that our meaning was to take any aduantage against him by our sudden comming to him we our selues being prepared for the Conference we sayd we intended to deale with him in no other matters then such as were conteined in his owne booke by him so much studied written and so lately published in print wherin he hauing made so large a Challenge as he had we sayde we thought he could not thinke himselfe to be suddenly taken as unprouided Of which speach he seemed not much to
mislike onely he sayd that he vnderstoode not of our comming Then we beginning with the first part of his sayd booke did demaund of him with what reason he could charge the Queenes Maiesties most mercifull gouernment and vs that at this time professe the Gospel as he did in yâ— Preface of his said booke with unused and strange crueltie and torments practised vpon his fellowes in religion seeing that the Authors and professors of their Religion had most cruelly burnt aliue so many thousands of vs for the maintenance of our Religion onely besides diuers other wayes of most horrible torments whereas none of them was euer executed for Religion but either for treason or some other notorious crime punishable with death by the Lawes of the Realme Whereunto he answered that he was punished for Religion himselfe and had bene twise on the Racke and that racking was more grieuous then hanging and that he had rather chuse to be hanged then racked Whereunto one of vs sayd that belike Master Campion being the Popes tender Pernell accounteth a litle racking of him selfe to be more crueltie then the roasting quicke of many thousands of vs. You must quoth Master Campion consider the cause the cause why and not the punishment onely It hath bene euer your maner sayd we not onely to vse petitione principij but totius also not only to require a principal point in controuersie but euen the whole it self to be graunted vnto you as that your cause is good and that you be the true Church of Christ as you continually presume and take vnto you But thanks be to God the contrarie hath bene so prooued that a great part of Christendome doeth euidently see it And many thousands who were before of your Church haue fled to vs from it as from the synagogue of Antichrist And concerning his racking Master Lieutenant being present sayde that he had no cause to complaine of racking who had rather seene then felt the racke and admonished him to vse good speache that hee gaue not cause to be vsed with more seuerity For although said he you were put to the racke yet notwithstanding you were so fauourablie vsed therein as being taken off you could and did presently go thence to your lodging without helpe and vse your handes in writing and all other partes of your body which you could not haue done if you had bene put to that punishment with any such extremitie as you speake of Besides this Master Beale one of the Clarks of her Maiesties priuie Counsell being by chaunce present demaunded of him before all the companie there assembled whether that being on the racke he were examined vpon any point of Religion or no Whereunto he answered that he was not in deede directly examined of Religion but moued to confesse in what places he had bene conuersant since his repaire into the Realme Master Beale sayde that this was required of him because many of his fellowes and by likelihood he him selfe also had reconciled diuers of her Highnes subiectes to the Romish Church and had attempted to withdrawe them from their obedience due to their naturall Prince and Soueraigne Whereunto he answered that forasmuch as the Christians in olde time being commanded to deliuer vp the bookes of their Religion to such as persecuted them refused so to doe and misliked with them that did so calling them Traditores he might not betray his Catholike brethren which were as he sayd the temples of the holy Ghost But it was replied by Master Beale that it was conuenient in policie for the Prince to vnderstande what such as were sent from the Bishop of Rome her Maiesties and the Realmes mortall enemie did within her dominions and to knowe her foes from her faithful subiects specially in such a time as this wherein we liue that this inquirie did not touch the cause of Religion After this we came to the matter of his booke And first where he chargeth vs that we haue nowe of a sudden cut off many goodly and principall partes of the holy Scriptures from the whole body thereof of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as hee writeth and for example and proofe thereof he nameth first the Epistle of Saint Iames which Luther that flagitious Apostata saith he in the Preface of the same Epistle and in his booke De captiuitate Babilonica nameth contentious puffed vp drie or barren as a thing stuffed with strawe and iudgeth it vnworthie the Apostolique spirit wee answered that if Luther had so written yet Master Campion did vs wrong to charge vs with violating of the Maiestie of the holy Bible for reiecting of the sayde Epistle of S. Iames who doe and alwayes haue receiued the same Epistle Yet we prayed him that he would shewe these wordes in the places by him noted which he sayd he would if he had the bookes The booke wherein was Luthers Preface to that Epistle being deliuered him when he had read some part of the sayd Preface and found that Luther did allowe and commend that Epistle as in deede he doeth testifying that though it were reiected of some olde writers yet he commended it and tooke it to be good and profitable which wordes of Luther when Master Campion had read he shut the booke and sayde that it was not of the true edition We answered that the print was not lately published being almost fourtie yeeres sithence and that we had searched all other printes that we could come by and found them to agree with this and that we thought there was no other and therefore we prayed him that he would shewe some edition wherein it was so set downe as he alleaged it in his booke He sayd he thought it was so as he had alleaged in the same booke of Luther in the Dutch tongue Then we offered to bring him the Dutch booke for the triall of the trueth of the Latin translation but he refused to see the same But it was aduouched vnto him as the trueth is in deede that it was likewise in the Dutch booke as he had read it in the Latin for that we had made conference thereof Then he desired to see Luthers booke De captiuitate Babilonica This booke also we deliuered to him and desired that he would shewe those wordes there He read the wordes in Latin which are these in effect I passe ouer saith Luther that many doe very probablie affirme that this Epistle is not Saint Iames the Apostles nor worthie the Apostolike spirit Here Master Campion thought that he had founde at the least that Luther had sayd that the sayd Epistle was not worthie the Apostolike spirit But wee prayed him to consider that Luther spake of other mens iudgement and not of his owne as in the same place is most euident to see and also before in his Preface to that Epistle he expresly deuideth his iudgement from theirs But Master Campion much vrged the wordes very probably whereby saith
he Luther shewed his allowance of their iudgement We answered that he so sayde for that they brought very probable reasons for that their iudgement But he still charged Luther with blasphemie for saying that some doe very probably affirme that the Epistle of Iames was not written by the Apostle Saint Iames nor worthie the spirite of an Apostle and vrged vs to answere what opinion we had of that Epistle meaning to intangle vs with that Dilemma either to condemne Luther or else to doubt of the Epistle as Luther saith that some probablie doe We answered that our Church doubteth not of that Epistle but receiueth it as Canonical readeth it in our Churches expoūdeth it in our scholes and alleageth it for confirmation of doctrine Notwithstanding for Luther or any other to say that some haue very probably affirmed that Epistle not to be written by Saint Iames nor to be worthie the spirite of an Apostle is no blasphemie It is blasphemie blasphemie quoth he pronoūcing those words with disdainefull countenance and voyce It is soone said quoth we but not so easely proued I will proue it quoth he to be blasphemie by two reasons and thus he framed a syllogisme The Gospell of Saint Iohn and the Epistle of Saint Iames were written by the same spirite But to say that some doe probably affirme the Gospell of Saint Iohn not to be written by Saint Iohn nor to be worthie the spirite of an Apostle is blasphemie Therefore to say that like of Saint Iames Epistle is blasphemy Answere was made that the Maior was Petitio Principij the challenging of the graunt of that which chiefly is in controuersie For those that so say of Saint Iames Epistle doubt whether it was written by the same Spirite that the Gospell of Saint Iohn was or no and that still resteth for you to proue said we And here Master Campion when he coulde not denie that he required that to be graunted to him which he should haue proued was put to silence and had no more to replie Then was his second reason called for but none could be found Then saide one of them Why is not Saint Iames Epistle called the Catholicke Epistle of Saint Iames Howe doe you then denie it to be Canonicall It was said that that was a simple reason For whereas other Epistles of the Apostles were written vnto speciall Cities people or persons this of Saint Iames for that it was written commonly to all the tribes of the Iewes dispersed was called Catholike or generall Then sayd we to the auditorie You haue heard that Luther doeth much commend this Epistle of Saint Iames as good and profitable and Master Campion alleadgeth that he calleth it contentious puffed vp drie or barren stuffed with strawe and vnworthie the Apostolike spirit Whereby sayd we ye may see the diuersitie or rather contrarietie of Luthers wordes and Master Campions reporte and so may ye iudge of his synceritie trueth which he vseth likewise continually Then saide Master Campion that Luther himselfe and others had purged these workes and taken away all such places as that was and the like that ministred such occasions of offence as that did and he said he woulde procure from the Emperours Maiestie and the Duke of Bauaria and from another Prince whose name we remember not the true copyes of those bookes to be sent to the Queenes Maiestie Which wordes he rising vp from the forme whereon he sate pronounced with so great contention of voice and with such gesture casting vp his armes beating vpon his booke that one of vs challenged him therefore demaunding why he vsed such outragious speach and behauiour He answered for that so many yong Catholiques were present there he woulde not by any faint defending of the cause giue them occasion of offence Whereby we vnderstande howe he would haue behaued him selfe might he haue obteined a disputation among the youth of the Uniuersities trusting they woulde be caryed away many of them by such his bolde and confident dealings and actions And we saide further to Master Campion that if Luther had purged his books where he first reiected Saint Iames Epistle as Master Campion saith he hath sithen receiued and much commended it with whatreason hath Master Campion charged vs vpon his surmise of Luthers first writing which doth no where appeare as reiecting Saint Iames Epistle He should rather haue commended vs who doe and alwayes haue allowed of that Epistle and should haue praised Luther who after the example of Saint Augustine and other ancient and godly writers had amended in his writing that which vpon better aduise he misliked Then we turning to the auditorie sayd that seeing all the printed Bookes of Luther extant that we could finde doe conteine such commendations of Saint Iames Epistle as they had heard and that Master Campion hath charged Luther so contrarily to all his printed bookes wherein he commendeth that Epistle and therby also chargeth vs as reiecting it who euer haue receiued it they might we said take Master Campions trueth and synceritie to be as it is vntill he haue brought out his copies from the Emperour and the Duke of Bauaria which he nor any liuing we beleeue can euer doe But Master Campion said that might he haue his own bookes from Oxeforde he woulde shewe that in Luther which he had written of him Whereunto it was answered that if he woulde let vs knowe where they were we would become humble suters to their honors that he might both enioye his bookes and that the partie who had them in keeping might be without daunger But this woulde he not consent vnto Then Hart one of his fellowes saide that he being at Rome heard Bellarminus the reader of controuersies there affirme that the wordes reported by Campion in his booke were in that preface of Luther and that therefore vpon his worde it was so Whereunto we answered that neither his wordes nor the testimonie of Bellarminus were of sufficient credite to carry away such a matter as that was without better proofe specially so many and most manifest proofes in Luthers printed bookes being to the contrarie who agreeth with vs in allowing the said Epistle and that therefore Master Campion hath most impudently alleadged this place of Luther as a profe that we should reiect S. Iames Epistle Then Master Beale said It is not materiall to vs if Luther had once so written but he asked Master Campion whether euer he did read him selfe any such wordes in Luther as he in his booke doeth charge him with or not Whereto he answered that in a treatise made by Doctor Lee sometime Archbishoppe of Yorke against that booke of Luther intituled De captiuitate Babilonica he had read these wordes alleadged as he had set them downe in his booke Being againe asked whether either vpon his othe or vpon his credit he would say to the presence there assembled that he had euer seene the places alleaged by him in his booke
sentences out of the Greeke Testament and Doctors once or twise our selues wee offered the Greeke Testament first and afterwardes Nazianzene in Greeke to Campion to reade that he might credit his owne eyes and that we alleaged their wordes truely But he refused to reade in the Greeke testament altogether as them selues do here confesse And when Saint Basill and Nazianzen in Greeke were offered to him to reade he said once or twise I knowe I knowe it is as ye haue alleaged which we tooke to be a shift to auoyde the reading of it him selfe But when he was vrged Master Stollard who stood by tooke the booke and held it to him he read but so softly as it were to him selfe that wee may with good conscience protest before God that we heard not one word so farre off was it that he read skilfully in the hearing of all the auditorie as they doe write But surely whosoeuer did knowe Campions vayne may thinke that hee would haue read in the hearing of al the auditorie in deede had he had any knowledge in that tongue and not so haue whispered to him selfe or in Master Stollardes eare Truthe it is that he saide Let this man witnes whether I can reade Greeke or no. But why did hee not reade so that not he alone but that all we might haue bene witnesses thereof But saye they Master Stollard said hee read very well They onely heard him so saye belike for of truth he said to vs If he did reade at all he read the worst that euer I heard which some of vs thought that Master Stollard spake for that wee hauing read those fewe wordes of Nazianzen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 once or twise before the booke was giuen Campion he might seeme out of his memorie to haue repeated them rather then to haue read them out of the booke Nowe that we should be in any admiration hereat as they write what cause was there For that we should aske him why he did not so much before who heard him then not reade one word or that the Deane of Pauls confounded should say We confesse you can reade Greeke or that there was any cause giuen why we should blush or be confounded are most impudent lies and most meete for such reporters Nay rather may all Papistes blush for Campions sake who making such a chalenge as though he had had all knowledge in all learning and languages when it came to the triall vpon conscience of his ignorance durst not reade openly one short sentence in Saint Basill or Nazianzen the bookes being of a large and faire print Surely wee before our comming thither vpon Campions owne bragging challenge and booke and other mens reportes of him thought wee should haue bene sore incumbred by his learning and ouermatched by his knowledge in the tongues so farre off was it that wee meant to make any ostentation therein towardes him as they write but vpon experience and triall with him we found him not to be that man that we looked for and went away with that opinion that the booke which was so sodainely after his bragging chalenge put in print was none of his writing much lesse penned by him as he was in his iourney as he reported him selfe but that it was elaborate before by the common and long studie of all the best learned Iesuites to serue at all oportunities To the same effect is the report of Sherwin who looking vpon the Greeke Testament and reading neuer a worde goeth yet away thereby not onely with the commendation of a man very well seene in the Greeke and Hebrew tongues but also of singular modestie and contempt of all praises as seeking to be accounted ignorant in that wherein he had great skill For that they would haue the cause of his not reading to be for that he was willed to hold his peace is very ridiculous for he did oft speake after he was so willed to holde him selfe contented and then he was specially desired to reade and not to holde his peace But we thought the truthe to be that when Sherwin had alleaged out of the second to the Ephesians after the olde translation Creati in bonis operibus we were created in good workes and the originall Greeke being shewed vnto him when he found it to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad bona opera created to do good workes he looked in the beginning and in the ende of the Greeke Testament trusting as wee thought that if he might haue found that it had bene printed in any place where the Gospel is preached hee might after Campions exāple haue made a challenge to the print as false which is now become a speciall shift of the Papistes and the last refuge when all other do faile but when he did see that it was Plantines print hee held his peace Notwithstanding we do not thinke but that Sherwin could reade Greeke the ignorance wherof we neither obiected to any nor did make any ostentation as they write of any our knowledge therein Only we offered the bookes them selues vnto Campion that his owne eyes might bee witnesses that the auncient fathers both Greekes and Latines did teache iustification by faith alone euen as we do By which occasion God as wee thinke by the opening of his ignorance meant to controll his vaine glorious bragging of all knowledge and habilitie to deale with all men Thus much and to much of this matter were it not that the reader may hereby vnderstand what vantages these writers and reporters doe take vnto them selues yea and by speedy and continuall spreading and beating of the same into the eares and heads of many do much preuaile also vntill time the mother of truthe shall discouer their vntruthes But we may by no meanes dissemble another matter by these Pamphleters sore laide to our charge Saint Augustine in the fourtenth chapter of his booke De fide operibus was by some of them in our conference as we thinke alleaged as against our doctrine of iustification by faith alone but in that confusion of many speaking at once it was not greatly by any of vs marked or said vnto that we remember But the authors of the Pamphlets do report this place of Saint Augustine as by them of al other most effectually alleaged against vs. Their words be these Unto this was added by the Catholikes the authoritie of Saint Augustine out of his booke De fide operibus and the fourtenth chapter where he hath registred that this doctrine of Iustification by faith onely was an heresie taught in the Apostles time for reformation whereof he declareth that Saint Iohn Saint Peter S. Iude and Saint Iames did write their Epistles wherein they so much inculcate the doctrine of good workes Thus they write thus they whisper in euery eare open vnto them to the slander of vs and our doctrine of iustification by faith onely as not onely an errour but an heresy also But wee doe
but because of these hearers wee should seeke most for edification and it is the speciall cause of our meeting Goade Thus then I reason This speciall place alleadged by those of your side can not be vnderstoode of the Church Ergo it proues not this visibilitie Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade I would be glad for the better waying of this place that you would remember what your selfe hath written concerning the finding out of the sense of any place of Scripture in the second chapter of your booke I would you had bene as reasonable in other thinges of your booke and then we should haue agreed better for the rule is very good to helpe to the true sense that the circumstances of the place be considered the wordes that goe before that followe after the scope the clauses and whole context Nowe both out of that which goeth before and of that which followeth out of the whole scope and drift of the place it is euident to be spoken onely of the Apostles and their successors in the ministerie Ergo it is onely to be vnderstoode of them and not of the whole Church Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade Whatsoeuer is spoken properly of the Apostles doctrine and life can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church But this is properly spoken of their doctrine and life Therefore it can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church Campion You must not petere principium It was not onely spoken in respect of the Apostles function but of y◠who le church no otherwise then as the Apostles were Christians including the whole Church Goade Then that commaundement Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke ye all of this spoken to the Apostles much more must include the whole Church being spoken of the sacrament which appertaineth to all and yet ye exclude the people from the cuppe Campion This was not spoken to them as they were Christians but in respect of their function as they were priestes the other was spoken as they were Christians Goade Neither of these is true but briefely deny one part of my argument Campion I deny the minor Goade Out of the circumstāces of the place and conclusion it is manifest that it is properly spoken of the Apostles doctrine and life and not of the whole Church Consider the wordes Vos estis sal terrae You are the salt of the earth Vos estis lux mundi c. You are the light of the worlde Non potest ciuitas abscondi c. A citie can not be hid Then the conclusion Sic luceat lux vestra So let your light shine c. You are the salt of the earth noteth the Apostles doctrine wherwith they should seasō others You are the light of the worlde noteth their life whereupon all mens eyes are cast and so can no more be hid then a citie vpon an hill Both these poyntes are proper to the ministerie and hereupon the conclusion inferred So let your light shine c. Campion You haue very well answered your selfe For the text conteineth both There is the salt and the earth the light and the world who must season and who must be seasoned who must shine and to whom they must shine Do you not see plainely that he includeth both the teachers and them that are taught c. Goade Nowe you fall to discoursing cleane besides the purpose It is true that the one can not be without the other but yet it is playne that to season to lighten and to be set as vpon an hill is proper alone to the Apostles and their ministerie For the drift and scope of the place is onely to set forth the Apostles doctrine conuersation and you violently wrest it to the whole Church The life of the ministerie is as it were set vpon an high stage the light of their conuersation is looked vnto of all what is this to the visibilitie of the whole Church Campion Uery wel doth a candle shine to it selfe and is not a master of a familie a Master and that which is spoken to him may it not be sayd also to them Goade I pray you howe holdeth this argument The life and doctrine of the ministerie is as it were set vpon a stage for all men to looke vnto and therefore they are called the salte of the earth the light of the worlde Ergo the whole Church is visible This is the force of your argument from this place Camp I haue sayd the text maketh not for you It is not vnderstoode of their ministerie and life only as they were Apostles but as they were Christians Goade As I haue proued this out of the text so nowe I will shewe this to be the sense out of the Fathers both Chrysostome and Ierome vpon the place Campion You may spare your labour you shall neuer finde Doctor that vnderstandeth it onely of the ministerie I tell you that aforehand Goade Yes I will shew out of Chrysostome that it is onely vnderstoode of the ministerie and of their life in the afternoone according to your request the place shal be shewed Campion It is a common and an vsuall kinde of speache to vtter that to the master which is meant to the seruants Goade Wil you beleeue none but your selfe hearken what Saint Hierome sayth vpon this place Campion Yes if you would beleeue Hierome as well as I we should be soone agreed What thinke you is Hierome of your religion would you be of his Goade I would not be of any mans religion to buylde vpon man I holde neither of one nor other but of Christ and grounde my religion onely vpon his worde But remember your strong place you spake of to proue the perpetual visibilitie of the church Let vs heare what it is Campion Shall I then haue one argument Goade Yea let vs heare it you shal be answered though it be not your part to oppose Campion It is out of Matthew chap. 18. Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church I will proue out of this place that the Church of necessitie must continually be visible I proue it thus This is a commaundement that is perpetuall and must be alwayes executed in the Church But that can not be vnlesse the Church be visible Ergo the visibilitie of the Church is continuall Goade I distinguish of the maior When the Church is gathered may retaine a face when it doeth-execute gouernment hath a consistorie to heare matters then it ought to be done but this cannot be alwayes had being often hindered by persecution Camp Offences betweene brother brother happen alwaies and this is the medicine and remedy There is no age wherein there are not offences where shal I seeke the perpetual remedy that is appointed vnles the Church be perpetually visible Goade I haue said before Whē there is a state an established Church this remedy is to be sought for But this cannot alwaies be had because the militant afflicted church oftentimes
erre about the matter of resurrectiō the church of Galatia about the matter of iustificatiō Camp The Apostle though he wrote to all yet he meaneth but some fewe of them And what are these to the whole Church being but particular churches the militant Church of Christ cōprehendeth y◠who le nūber of churches on earth As for y◠error of y◠church of Galatia it was no otherwise reproued then as preachers are wōt to reproue who are wōt to rebuke al for some y◠are faulty Goade In deede you say some thing concerning that of Corinth I grant that the error was not so generall For he said Quidā inter vos c. Certaine amongst you c. But for the Galathians it was otherwise For the whole Church was iustly reproued according to that O you foolish Galathians who hath be witched you that you should not beleeue the truthe These wholy fell were not particular mēbers but whole Churches planted by the Apostles them selues replenished with speciall giftes of the holy Ghost And if these faded in the Apostles time in so great a matter what priuilege haue any other churches since y◠they shuld not likewise erre so cōsequētly what priuilege hath y◠militāt church Camp Make your argument then we shal see what ye will conclude Goade So then I make mine argument Whatsoeuer congregation doth erre in matters of faith is not the true Church But the Church of Rome erreth in matters of faith Ergo the Church of Rome is not the true Church Campion This is from the question M. Lieutenant might doe well to put vs in minde of the question Goad I remember the question well I bring an instance according to your meaning because you in saying that the Church cānot erre meane y◠the church of Rome cānot erre this priuilege agreeth not to y◠church of Rome which you say is y◠true Church Campion I deny your Minor The Church of Rome hath not erred You suppose the Church of Rome to be y◠true Church and I beleeue it Goad In deed I only suppose it for disputatiōs sake beleue it not but y◠errors are infinit I should weary my self al y◠company to rehearse many I omit inferior errors of lesse waight and moment and come to those that shake the foundation of faith Campion We shall then runne into all controuersies bring some proper errour that I my selfe shall coufesse to bee an errour that the church of Rome holdeth Goade Why a general must be taken away by particulars Campion That is true Goade Then I reason thus It hath erred and doeth erre in the foundation touching saluation by Christ Ergo it is subiect to errour Campion It doeth not God forbid it should But if you will properly proue it hath erred shewe me that some generall Councill hath erred Goade Well I will followe you in this poynt The Councill of Trent hath erred in m◅ny poyntes of doctrine and namely in the matter of iustification ergo a generall Council hath erred Campion I deny the Antecedent c. Goade It ascribech whole or part of righteousnesse to be inherent in our selues But this is an errour Ergo it errcth in iustification c. The very words I do not remember but this is the effect of the doctrine that Inhaerens iustitia est pars iustificationis That inherent righteousnesse is a part of iustification Campion The Councill hath no such wordes or if it haue it doth not ascribe any thing to righteousnes cleauing in our selues as of our selues but as giuen of God In deede it is in vs but as y◠gift of God As there are vertues faith hope charity which must be in vs seruing to this righteousnes which yet are not of vs. Goade Whatsoeuer is in vs that must iustifie vs before the iust iudgement of God must be perfect But our righteousnes is not perfect Ergo our righteousnes cānot either in whole or part iustifie vs. Campion I answere your Maior it must be perfect according to that perfection that God requireth of vs in this life Goade This is most corrupt For God wil haue a perfect vndefiled righteousnes such as he hath set downe in his own law Qui fecerit c. He that shall do them shal liue in them Gal. 3. Againe Maledictus est omnis qui non permanserit in omnibus quae scripta sunt in libro Legis vt faciat ea c. Cursed is euery one that abideth not in all thinges that are written in that booke to doe them c. Campion I say God doeth not exact such a perfect righteousnesse according to the lawe for we are deliuered from that by Christ c. Goade Then we must rest on Christ alone but if we will be iustified by any part of righteousnes in our selues it must be perfect For Gods iustice alloweth no vnperfect righteousnes Doe you thinke you can fulfill this law c. Campion Yea that I can Goade Can you loue God aboue all things your neighbour as your selfe Can you loue him with all your heart with all your soule and with all your strength Campion I can For when I preferre God before all things and loue him chiefely I loue him aboue all Fulke Note that Blasphemous absurditie Goade If a man may fulfill the lawe to iustification then Christ dyed in vayne Campion What now shall we haue hissing c. Goade Sure it is worthy of hissing and of blusshing too if you had any feare of God before your eyes or conscience I praye God make you to vnderstand the absurdities that you holde that you may be ashamed of them and renounce them Campion Why is euery motion to sinne deadly sinne c. Goade You are like the Pharisee that thought the keeping of the law to consist in the outward letter What say you is not cōcupiscence the motions of the flesh against y◠law of God sinne Campion No that they are not for if I being tempted refraine my selfe and when I haue a motion to euill bridle my selfe from it as if I see my neyghbours goods and haue a motion to steale and do not do I not herein loue my neighbour as my selfe If a man bee in the Queenes Iewell house where he may take some precious thing and bridle himselfe of it and abstaine shall this man be condemned What wil you cōdemne a man for euery litle tentation It is a good thing to be tempted c. Iam. 1. Blessed is he that endureth temptation Goade Ye abuse the place For it is vnderstode of afflictions And as for concupiscence it is the transgression of the law Thou shalt not lust ergo it is sinne But I will leaue this as impertinent to the purpose Consider that notable place in the ende of the fift chapter to the Corinth Epist. 2. Him that knewe no sinne he made sinne for vs that we might be made the righteousnesse of God in him not in
Canons of euery Councill but this was that consent the agreement of the whole Council the whole Council answered Etiam domine Campion Shew me the booke Fulke If I do not shew it then let me beare the blame Camp Well admit it be so first they might meane that Angels and spirits had a certaine definite substance of their being which they called their bodies Fulke Then belike they knewe not howe to speake but I am sure they knew what difference there was betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 substance body if they had so meant they waÌ„ted not words to haue expressed their meaning Camp They might thinke they had certaine subtil bodies according to the formes that they did take as Augustine and some other haue helde besides this was not an error of faith Fulke Ergo it was of maners belike Camp It was a smal error neither of faith nor maners Fulke I proue it was an error of faith We beleeue that God is the creator of all things visible and inuisible but if Angels and spirites be visible then are there no inuisible things whereof wee beleeue God to be the creator Besides they do not onely make theÌ„ visible but circumscriptible also and therefore they do meane bodies and not substances generally for onely bodies are circumscriptible Camp They meane not such bodies as we haue but such as they tooke how could they els be painted Fulke But they say they were visible and circumscriptible Campion Because they doe Assumere corpora not because they had bodies in deede but seemed to haue Fulke But the Councill saith they haue proper bodies of their own are circuÌ„scriptible haue bene seen in their proper bodies Campion It was no decree Fulke Sacra Synodus dixit Etiam domine All the holy Synode confirmed it saying Euen so my Lord. Campion Many a saint in heauen haue thought as hard matters as this and they are saued Fulke I deny not that but yet this was an error of faith neither doth euery error in faith shut out a man from saluation Camp In deede so you say in your booke against Bristow that the Church may erre in matters of fayth for you say that Inuocation of Saints and prayer for the dead were errors in faith and yet that they which vsed them are saued I wonder therefore why you crie out so lowde in your pulpits against Inuocation of saintes and haue nothing more in your mouthes theÌ„ Blasphemie Blasphemie when the Catholikes mainteine it Fulke I say in deede that Inuocation of saints as it was held of some of the later sort of auncient fathers was an error in faith but yet not such as could exclude them from being members of the true Church and yet the same error as it is vsed of Papistes is blasphemous These fathers helde the foundation Faith and therefore that error was not damnable in them Campion In deede you say that if a man haue faith what errors soeuer he haue besides it is well enough so long as hee holde your faith it makes no matter what errors soeuer â—…e hold with it hee cannot perish Fulke You slander my booke I neuer writte so Camp Let me see your booke and I will shew it you Fulk In what booke will you shewe it Campion In your booke against Bristowe Fulke You shal see the booke at our next meeting and if you be able to shewe any such wordes or matter either I will lose my head I may say and haue sayd that the Fathers had their errors among which some allowed inuocation of Saintes and yet holding the foundation they may be saued Camp Uery well that is all one why should you then make so much a doe against inuocation of Saintes Why doe you not say in your pulpits that it is an indifferent matter Fulke Because as you holde it it is in deede a blasphemous errour but as the Fathers helde it it was no blasphemous error but yet an errour and no indifferent thing Goade Are you ignorant that they which hold the foundation though they erre in some particular pointes of doctrine they may be saued Shall euery particular point of errour in doctrine depriue a man of saluation holding soundly the foundation Christ Campion Well he saieth it in his booke c. If a man haue onely faith it maketh no matter what errours he hold beside Fulke You shamefully slaunder my booke and I knowe you can shewe no such thing out of my booke Nowe you haue graunted so many absurdities ye know not how to make vp the matter but by slaundering my booke Campion I haue graunted no absurdities but I will defend them bring me the booke and I will shew it you And thereupon I challenge you you and I at Cambridge M. Doctor to trie it Fulke Uery well Sir you shew your selfe according to your publike challenge more bold then wise you that haue challenged all the Realme no maruaile if you challenge me Campion I wil stand to my challenge and here I challenge you to dispute with you at Cambridge if you dare Fulke It lieth not in mee to remoue you to Cambridge I came hither vpon commandement at this time otherwise you are not the man whom I would chuse take for to be mine aduersarie if you were at libertie There are twentie of your side whom I would rather take if I should chuse mine equal which make no such challenge Non tibiplus cordis sed minus oris inest Goade Your Church denyeth an article of faith ergo it erreth c. Campion God forbid it doeth not Goade You deny the bodily ascention of Christ into heauen ergo an article of faith Campion We do not deny it Goade You deny that he is bodily in heauen for you say that he is bodily in earth but he can not bee both in heauen and earth at once if he haue a true bodie Campion I deny your argument For he is and may bee in many places at once touching his body Goade It is contrary 〈◊〉 the nature of a true bodie to bee in many places at once For a true naturall body must haue the properties of a very naturall and true body and so you make Christ to haue a phantasticall and not a true body You say at the same time he is in earth and in heauen Saint Augustine confuting the likâ—… errour of those that denied that Christ had a true body saith Cauendum no ita diuinitatem astruamus hominis vt veritatem corporis auferamus We must beware that we doe not so maintaine the diuinitie of Christ that we take away the true nature of a body Iesus Christus vbique est per id quod Deus est in coelo autem per id quod homo c. Iesus Christ is present euery where according to his Godhead but he is in heauen according to his manhoode And in Ioh. tractatu 3. Corpus Domini in quo resurrexit vno
written in our note bookes some of them more then twentie yeeres a goe not to deceiue the Papistes but to helpe our owne memorie The first place that I haue to shewe is out of Saint Augustine de Baptismo contra Donatistas lib. 2. cap. 2. Quis autem nesciat c. as before in the first dayes conference Camp You might haue spared this labour for of this place I did not doubt my answere was c. vt supra Fulke We haue your answere let vs haue no repetition Campion The greatest matter that was doubted of was the decree of Innocentius coÌ„cerning the communicating of infants the second Councill of Nice and the prayer at the latter ende of euery Council You must proue these three to be erronious Fulke I haue proued them already I am nowe onely to shew that the bookes theÌ„selues agree with my written notes I would haue shewed you them all in order though you had not put me in minde The decree of Innocentius cited by Saint Augustine conâ—…ta 2. epist. Pelag. ad Bonifacium lib. 2. cap. 4. Haec enim eius verba sunt c. vt supra These are the wordes of Innocentius concerning the communicating of inâ—…ts S. Augustines wordes vpon the fame are these Ecce beatae memoriae Innocentius c. Behold Innocentius of blessed memorie c. Campion This is plaine I will answere you Fulke We haue your answere Campion You read not so much afore Fulke I haue read no more nowe then I did before out of my note booke Campion Mine answere is to deny that Innocentius maketh it necessary for infants to communicate Fulke We haue your answere before I come onely to discharge my credite for alleaging the booke truely Campion Mine answere was that it was neuer simply necessary but necessary according to the praetize of the Church Fulke What neede these repetitions Campion I must declare mine answere Fulke We haue it already Campion You come to appose mee as if I were a scholer in the Grammar schoole Fulke You thinke by multitude of wordes to carry away the matter but you shall haue no such scope as you had the last daye Campion You are very imperious I trust I answered you sufficiently the last day Fulke The other day when wee had some hope of your conuersion we forbare you much and suffered you to discourse contrary to the order of any good conference whereupon it hath bene giuen out by some of your sect that you had the best part because you had the most wordes And therefore nowe that we see you are an obstinate heretike and seeke to couer the light of the trueth with multitude of wordes we meane not to allow you such large discourses nor to forbeare you as we did Campion You are very imperious to day whatsoeuer the matter is My answer I am sure was sufficient to any thing you could bring you neede not to be so imperious I am the Queenes prisoner and none of yours Fulke Not a whit imperious though I will exact of you to keepe the right order of disputation What your answeres were the last day it is well knowen to so many lawefull witnesses as were present beside they are registred out of your mouth they were euen such as are like to proceede from a Fryer full of impudencie and garrulitie Campion Well I must beare this at your hands and much more You charge me with multitude of wordes may I not adde vnto my answere Fulke We haue heard your answere before we are not now to dispute the matter againe but to deliuer our credite for the allegations Campion Doe forwarde then Fulke This was the second Of the forme of prayer after the Councill which is this Te in nostris principijs c. vt errori indulgeas c. We beseech thee in these our beginnings c. that thou wilt pardon our errour And againe Et quia conscientia remordente tabescimus ne aut ignorantia nos traxerit in errorem c. And because our owne consciences accusing vs we doe faynt least either ignorance hath drawen vs into errour c. As was alleadged in the first dayes conference Camp Where you inferre that the Councill asked forgiuenesse of their erronious decree they meant not any errour of doctrine but of wordes whatsoeuer had bene spoken against the decree before the determination of the Councill as many wordes might be before vsed which after the Councils determination it was not lawfull to vse Fulke They feare least ignorance might haue drawen them into error or headlong Will driuen them to decline from Iustice therefore they desired pardon euen for their erronious vniust determinatioÌ„s if any were which were needeles if none could be Camp I say they prayed for those that before the determination of the decree were in errour or for those that spoke against the decree before it was concluded as when thinges are disputed of doubtfully many things are spoken amisse as if any wordes be spoken here to conuert an other c. Goade You are full of similitudes and as euill you applie them It is well that you make no more accompt of general CouÌ„cils for by your similitude you make a generall Councill no better then this meeting Campion I doe not make this and a generall Councill a like Fulke The next place was cited out of the second Council of Nice which decreeth that Angels and soules of meÌ„ haue bodies are visible are circumscriptible Actione 5. Sanctus dixit de Angelis c. Campion Let me haue the booke Fulke You shall haue it when I haue read the place De Angelis Archangelis eorum potestatibus quibus nostras animas adiungo ipsa Cathol Ecclesia sentit esse quidem intelligibiles sed non omnino corporis expertes inuisibiles vt vos Gentiles dicitis verum tenui corpore preditos aerio siue igneo vt scriptum est Qui facit Angelos suos spiritus ministros eius ignem vrentem sic autem multos sanctorum patrum sensisse cognouimus QuoruÌ„ est Basilius cognomento Magnus beatus Athanasius Methodius qui stant ab illis Solummodo autem Deus incorporeus informabilis Intelligibiles autem creaturae nequaquam ex toto sunt incorporeae inimitabiles Pictura existunt quare etiaÌ„ in loco existunt circumferentiam habent Quanquam autem non sunt vt nos corporeae vtpote ex quatuor elementis crassa illa materia nemo tamen vel Angelos vel daemones vel animas dixerit incorporeas Multoties eniÌ„ in proprio corpore visi sunt sed ab illis quibus dominus oculos aperuit Nos igitur eos noÌ„ vt DeuÌ„ sed vt creatur as intelligibiles ministros Dei non tameÌ„ vt verè incorporeos pingimus colimus Quod auteÌ„ hominis formae pinganturin causa est quod in ea visi sunt si quaÌ„do ministeriuÌ„ Dei apud homines obierint Tharasius
Church though you call it a small matter and yet you wil not teach the people that it is a smal matter Fulk I said that inuocation of Saints as it was held by some of the latter sort of auncient fathers was but a small error in comparison of such grosse heresies which the Popish Church doeth now holde and in comparison of such inuocation of Saints as is now mainteined and practised by the Papistes but your accusatioÌ„ of my booke was written therefore you can not alter it Camp Lend me your booke that I may charge you The booke being deliuered after a litle turning he sayde This is not the booke that I meant Fulke This is the booke that you named Camp I meant your answere vnto Doctor Allens articles because Bristow hath confuted it Fulk This is a poore shift wheÌ„ you haue slandered my booke and named one to flie to another so would you do with that booke you name now For I am sure that neither in that nor any other that euer I wrote your slander can be founde Goad There is an other thing ye were desirous to see touching the Councill of Constantinople and the Councill of Nice one of them being alleaged to be coÌ„trary to the other about setting vp of Images in the Church the Councill of Constantinople disalowing Images and the second Councill of Nice allowing theÌ„ and condemning the other Councill as erroneous Camp That of Constantinople was not a generall nor lawfull Councill but a certaine Iconomachy and may rather be called a conuenticle then a generall Councill and therefore no contrarietie hereby proued betweene generall Councils Goade It appeareth it was generall and solemnely gathered in the chiefe citie heare the wordes in the title of the Councill Sancta magna uniuersalis Synodus quae iuxtagratiaÌ„ Dei per pium deuotorum orthodoxorum nostrorum Imperatorum ConstaÌ„tini Leonis decretum in hac diuinormâ—… studiosa regia ciuitate congregata est c. The holy great and vniuersall Synode which by the grace of God and the godly decree of our godly Emperours Constantine and Leo is gathered in this holy and royall citie This Councill did confute by the Scriptures the setting vp of Images in the Church out of Deut. 20. Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any Image nor likenes of any thing c. and Deut. 4. For which cause saith this Counsaile you heard the voyce of wordes in the middest of the fire but you sawe no image Contrary to this the Councill of Nice doth accurse those that will not worship images in these words Qui venerandas imagines non veneraÌ„tur Anathema Accursed be they that worship not holy images So it appeareth that these two Councils were contrary and therefore one of them did erre But I will proceede to the next place You doubted also whether it were to be founde in Saint Augustine that there is no Miracle in the Sacrament Now you may heare his owne wordes To. 3. De Trinitate lib. 3. cap. 10. Sicut panis ad hoc factus in accipiendo Sacramento consumitur Sed quia haec hominibus nota sunt quia per homines fiunt honorem tanquam religiosa possunt habere stuporem tanquam mira non possunt As the bread ordained for this purpose is consumed in receauing the Sacrament But because these things are knowen vnto men are done by men they may haue honour or reuerence as holy things but they can not be wondered at as things strange and miraculous Here you haue Augustines wordes against miracle in the Sacrament Camp In deede there is no such euident miracle visibly appearing as when Christ cured yâ— lame the blinde c. but yet there is a great miracle which our faith doeth acknowledge Goade Augustine speaketh simply against miracle so that whether it be visible or inuisible both is excluded Beside it is perpetuall in all miracles that there must bee some outward sensible signe Further you doubted of Inhaerens iustitia righteousnes inherent in our selues which I auouched to bee erroneous doctrine set forth in the late Council of Trent The wordes are these Concil Trident. cap. 7. Verè iusti nominamur sumus iustitiam in nobis recipientes vnusquisque suam secundum mensuram quam spiritus sanctus partitur singulis prout vult secundum propriam cuiusque dispositionem cooperationem Et cap. 16. Quae quum iustitia nostra dicitur quia per eam nobis inhaerenteÌ„ iustificamur illa eadem Dei est quia a Deo nobis infunditur per Christi meritum We are called and in deede are truely righteous receiuing in our selues euery man his own righteousnes according to the measure which the holy Ghost doth deuide to euery one euen as he will according to euery mans own proper disposition cooperation For that righteousnes which is called ours because we are iustified by it inherent in our selues the selfe same is the righteousnes of God because it is powred into vs from God by the merit of Christ. Camp I did not doubt of inherent righteousnes in our selues whether it were in the Council of Trent for I defend mainteine it as the Councill teacheth it you saye it is by imputation of Christes righteousnes being without vs whereby wee are iustified and I say wee are iustified by that righteousnesse which is within vs though it be not of vs. Goade The place which I vrged against you the other day beside many other in the scripture is direcly against this doctrine 2. Cor. 5. 21. He hath made him to be fin for vs which knewe no sinne that we should be made the righteousnes of God in him Fulke Well nowe we are to come to the question You holde that the natural body blood of Christ is contained in the Sacrament of the Lordes supper Your wordes are Christ is present in the Sacrament substaÌ„tially very God man in his natural body Camp I say there is really present in the Sacrament the naturall body and blood of Christ vnder that bread and cup. Fulke What meane you by these wordes vnder the bread and cup that we may agree of termes Campion You knowe in the bread is whitenes c. that is not in his body make your argument Fulke So I will The cup is not the naturall blood of Christ Ergo the other parte is not his naturall body Campion There is present in the cup the naturall blood of Christ. Go to my wordes Fulke Well The naturall blood of Christ is not present in the cup Ergo the naturall body is not present in the other part Campion The naturall blood of Christ is present in the cup. Fulke Thus I disproue it The wordes of Christes institution be these This cup is the new testament in my blood But the naturall blood of Christ is not the newe testament in his blood Ergo the naturall blood of Christ is not in the cup. Camp The ward Is is neither in the
Charke I do not onely thinke but knowe of a certeintie that you are deceiued and will shewe you the booke Camp Note this obiection This is myne answere to it Hermogenes the Heretike did alleadge a bastard tradition and Tertullian doth call him to proue his opinion by true scriptures For Tertullians argument is not to say It is not written Therfore it is not true but to call him to proue the Scripture true which he alledged for him Charke And note this answere He that euen now knewe no such booke taketh presently vpon him to discourse of the argument thereof What great boldnes is this From what present reuelation doth it come Beside your boldnes your error is great in affirming that Hermogenes brought a bastard tradition For there is no such thing as may appeare to any man that for triall hereof wil reade the booke Hermogenes is cōfuted for saying as an Aristotelian Philosopher the God made al things of materia prima Againe of your answere I conclude that of necessitie the proofe of euery particular tradition must be by a true scripture And it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a generall position Tertullian would haue Hermogenes proue all that he helde by scripture Camp I say it is not to shewe a bastard writing for his tradition but that which is true scripture Charke And that is all I aske for what do I seeke more but to proue that euery tradition must be proued by true Scripture when therefore you Iesuites bring in vnwritten traditions concerning your Candles your vnholy graines your Agnus deis and such beggerly stuffe wherewith you abuse and pester the world Tertullian sayth you bring a Vae vpon your selues except you can proue the vse of them by Scriptures Camp Why I say it must needes be proued there or els it is not to be receaued Charke Remember what you graunt I aske no more To leaue Tertullian with you to aduise better of I alledge also a place of Basill out of his treatises called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 capite 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This place doth clearely establish the sufficiencie of scripture and banisheth all vnwritten and selfe will worshippings Consider the place for it is worthy of consideration as making against you in this question and charging you with pride and apostasie for bringing in things not written Camp Well let these your speaches passe Reade the place S. Basill is not against vs. Charke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. It is a manifest Apostasie or falling away from the faith and a fault of high pride eyther to dissalowe any thing written in the Scriptures or to bring in any thing not written seeing the Lorde hath sayde My sheepe heare my voyce with other arguments to that purpose Camp I will not trouble the auditorie with this place For Basill declareth that in some things we must be referred to tradition he speaketh onely for the alleadging of false scriptures and hath nothing against me Charke Then nothing can make against errour if this make not agaynst you But you abuse the auditorie and knowe not the drift of Basill in this place and that I will make euident to all the companie Take the booke and reade it if you can the place is easie Greeke and the sentence but short Camp I had rather reade it in Latine then in Greeke I vnderstande the Latine better I maruell you are so much in your Greeke Charke If I shoulde not haue brought it in Greeke but in Latine then you woulde haue taken exception against the interpreter I bring not the interpretour but Basill him selfe in the tongue wherein hee wrote Here Campion being long in turning the Latine booke coulde not finde the treatise but desired Master Charke to finde it who answered I haue it readie in Basill him selfe If you flee to the interpretour turne your owne booke Camp I haue answered you Saint Basills meaning is as it was then a common doctrine that it is a great fault to disalow true scriptures or to bring in false scriptures and to father a false writing vpon the Apostles Charke I protest that hauing perused the circumstaunces of the place I finde no such generall or particular drifte of the father as you misreport but a playne doctrine and sundrie argumentes to proue it that nothing is to be receiued or brought into the Church that is not written Camp Your protestation is no argument I am acquaynted with this dealing since the other day But the scope of Saint Basill is as I haue saide Charke My true protestation doeth ouerway your misconstruing as wel of Basill nowe as of Tertullian before and therein I referre my selfe to the examination of both places If you will or can read but twentie lines further your owne eyes shal see and giue sentence against your selfe Camp I haue giuen you the sense of the Doctours wordes and neede not reade the place Charke Reade first and then answere What Authour or what place can make against you if you will of your selfe frame an interpretation after your owne purpose without reading the wordes or making conscience what construction you giue Campion Saint Basill in other places is of a contrary iudgement and I am sure he is not contrary to him selfe The Apostles had fayth before they wrote and therefore it must needes be the scope Charke What kinde of answere is this Speake to the purpose or confesse your insufficiencie Basills owne woordes in this place doe euidently proue that hee is against you answere them or acknowledge your selfe not able to satisfie the Doctour Campion Was all written when the Apostles first taught Charke Is this any answere to Basill Propounde no newe questions but answere the former place so full against you Camp You see mine answere Charke I see and all men may see your vntrueth to shift off the matter Basills wordes are too strong against you To your newe question I answere that since the worde of God was first written that which hath bene written conteyned sufficient matter to saluation Campion Then what needed so many additions since of the Prophets and Apostles writings if we had sufficient before Charke The most honourable addition of the Prophetes and Apostles serued to a clearer manifestation of Christ of whome Moses had written before but added nothing to the substance In the after noone The Question Whether faith onely iustifieth M. Charkes prayer OUr helpe is in the name of the Lorde c. Almightie God merciful Father we acknowledge against our selues that we were conceiued and borne in sinne and corruption that wee remaine vnprofitable to any thing that is good and most prone and ready to that which is euill in thy fight Ignorance doeth possesse our mindes and dulnesse ruleth in our vnderstanding so that of our selues wee can not see into thy glorious and excellent trueth and in our selues wee finde no health nor hope of health Therefore according to thy riche mercie O Lord take
labijs charitatis meae And againe Verte sermonem meum in fraudem Do you thinke this speach proceeded of the holy Ghost Nay rather howsoeuer it displease you to heare of the matter it proceeded froÌ„ a prophane spirit as I haue said to charge the holy ghost with fraud to pray for such an effect that Holofernes might be taken with her loue snared with her kisses Camp There be no such wordes in the booke Charke Here you are manifestly ouertaken for they are worde for worde in the 9. Chapter and after your translations the vulgar and Vatablus Camp Is that to be esteemed fraude which the holy Ghost deuiseth Is it fraud to deceiue the deuill blame you her who did that she did to a good end and for the deliuery of the Church Char. What dealing is this Euen now he denied the words now finding them strong against his cause he would auoid them with a distinction of good intents to iustifie bad parts Thus you Papists hold against the word of God that we may do euill that good may come of it No Campion Gods spirit is alwayes like it selfe It is not agreeing with the maiestie of the spirit of God for any woman to pray that a stranger should be taken with the snare of his eyes looking vpoÌ„ her or that she may deceiue by lies This story therfore this practise proceded not froÌ„ the holy ghost Camp It is a shame for you to bring that example She desireth God that it will please him to turne the wickednes of Holofernes to the deliuerie of his people She prayeth not as you say that he should sinne Charke She doth pray for it in plaine words and set out her selfe in sumptuous apparell and ornaments to that purpose It is a shame for you Campion to mainteine any such absurditie and againe to deny and misconster the manifest wordes of that you would haue Canonicall scripture We stand before the face of God for the maintenance of his truth and giue such honour therunto that we acknowledge with our harts coÌ„fesse with our mouths that it is perfect full and sufficient and that there is no prophanation in it but you would haue that to be matched with holy scripture which is far vnworthy that honor What say you to the argument the place Let him be taken with the snare of his eies in me turne my speach into deceit or fraud This is a praier for successe in a matter of sinne most vnseemly for the holy ghost Camp I receiue this booke first because the Nicene couÌ„cill hath allowed it then I say further that this was her meaning that whereas God had giueÌ„ Holofernes ouer to fleshly lust that he might be taken with the loue of his eies towards her to be besotted with her yâ— she might the better performe her determinate purpose she prayeth that God will turne his sinne to the deliuery of his distressed people And what doth she commit worthy of blame in this Charke This is not only worthy of blame but also to be condemned as sinfull and sauouring of a prophane spirite that shee prayeth God to blesse her lyes and falshood her tentations and allurements to lust For the Lord hath appointed good wayes for good purposes and for the performance of that his worke he needed not her deceit For as Iob saith God needeth not any mans lie or any mans fraude Which is also true of the fraude and dangerous allurements mentioned in that chapter Camp What Chapter what Chapter Charke The ninth Chapter Reade and acknowledge the words you haue denied Here Campion read in his owne booke saying he perceiued we builded vpon our owne tâ—…slation Camp Well this is mine answere It was not truely and formally fraude but materially in the formall act fraude as for example when the people of the Iewes were commanded to steale from the Egyptians it was in the act theft but not formally theft So Abrahanis intent to kill his childe was to do murther in the act but formally it was no murther Charke You woulde nowe in steade of a short and schoolelike answere drawe me to a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the place in hande to the examination of newe matters Therefore to take you where you will needes be I say the Hebrewe worde hath not that signification that it shoulde import theft but a spoyle which was iust and commanded of God as after a victorie or for a rewarde of their labours seruice in Egypt therefore no theft But this fraude is another thing So the first example is vnlike proueth nothing no more do the rest For Abrahams act was no murther nor intent of murther but a duetiful obedience and seruice to God who had expresly commanded it Lastly you can not thinke that the Magistrate in taking the life of a transgressor or taking away yâ— head of a traytor is a murtherer No this duetie of iustice is layd vpon him by his office from God and can not but ignorantly be called murther And such was the warrant for Abraham in his office Camp I meane killing as it respecteth the taking away of life and no otherwise Charke How do you confound the speciall with the general All murther is the taking away of life but all taking away of life is not murther To kill and to take away life from the wicked by the sworde of iustice is iust and in no respect to carry the name of murther which is euermore euill Walker Concilium Laodicenum The Councill of Laodicea hath left out Toby Iudith the booke of Wisdome Ecclus Baruch Maccabees Esra the third and fourth and in the newe Testament Luke the Apocalyps these are the wordes Quae autem oporteat legi in authoritatem recipi haec sunt Genesis Exodus c. But those which ought to be read receiued for authenticall are these Genesis Exodus c. Where the forenamed bookes are omitted Camp The Laodicene Councill was particular and not generall And againe it reckeneth vp those bookes that were vndouted and not douted of in that part of the world But what maketh this to proue that they were douted of of that Catholike Church They were douted of in that Church or in that part of the Church Ergo they were douted of of the whole Church How holdeth this Therefore it is plaine that these bookes were not doubted of in that whole Church For the same Nicene Council accepteth Iudeth as Hierome testifieth in the preface to Iudeth Further because the Church of Rome approueth them it followeth not that we should dout of them Walker Then you confesse that the Council set not downe al that we should receiue And where you make the Councill particular it was prouinciall and further was confirmed by the sixth generall Councill holden at Trullo Constantine being president as Bartholomaeus Caranza writeth fol. 71. and therfore we may with them leaue out of the Canon Tobie Iudeth the
booke of Wisedome Ecclesiasticus Maccabees c. which your Councill of Trent thrust in as authenticall But to leaue that it is plaine that Cyprian vpō the Creede omitteth al that Apocrypha hauing rehearsed those which be Canonicall he sayth Haec sunt quae patres intra Canonem concluserunt ex quibus fidei nostrae assertiones constare voluerunt Sciendum tamen est quod alii libri sunt qui non Canonici sed Ecclesiastici a maioribus appellati sunt vt est Sapientia Salomonis Ecclesiasticus libellus Tobiae Iudith Machabaeorum libri quae omnia in ecclesijs legi voluerunt non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex ijs fidei confirmandam These are those thinges which the fathers shut within the Canon by which they would haue the assertions of our fayth to stande Notwithstanding we must know that there are other bookes also which of our Elders were called Ecclesiast and not Canonicall as Salomons booke of Wisd. Ecclus. the bookes of Tobias Iudeth the Macca all which they would haue read in the Church and yet not brought forth to confirme the authoritie of fayth out of them Camp He is called cōmonly Author expositionis in Symbolum and therefore doubtfull whether it were Cyprian or no but admit it were I answere to these and all such like places that when particular Fathers particular Councils doe recken vp such such books omit others that either were receiued there or in other places sithens they recken vp such as were thē come to their knowledge and such as were approued in that part of the worlde where they thē liued But it followeth not they reckened no more Ergo there were no more They doubted therefore we must acknowledge no more For the Church hath since put them out of doubt Walker You answere not but trifle For those are not onely omitted and left vnreckoned but they are set downe for Apocrypha or Ecclesiastici so certaynely named and not Canonical Camp Some might bee set downe then as doubtfull that nowe are out of doubt because they are receiued Charke Hitherto you haue gone from the matter wherein I haue bene willing to followe you a little to cleare the poynt that then was in hande when I began with you Nowe let vs come to the questions agreed of betweene vs. Camp Nay let vs first speake of the authoritie of the Scripture then if you will of the sufficiencie Charke Of the authoritie we haue spoken alreadie and it is not within our question which is onely of sufficiencie Camp I deferre to the scriptures all authoritie and all sufficiencie therefore you haue nothing against me Charke Yes I haue this against you that you doe not thinke the scriptures onely and alone sufficient to all doctrine of fayth and maners For whatsoeuer you say we knowe you holde and teache the contrary namely that all things are not set downe and written in the worde This other day you were still calling for Syllogismes and when you had receiued a blowe and stoode astonied vnder it yet you cryed out a Syllogisme a Syllogisme to make men beleeue that you were not touched Now you shal haue Syllogismes answere to them directly and shortly Thus I proue the sufficiencie of the scripture without traditions What the Apostles taught viua voce by liuely voyce that also they wrote But they taught viua voce whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Therefore they wrote also whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Camp Nego argumentum I deny the Argument Charke It is a Syllogisme you woulde haue denied my Maior I thinke Camp Proue your Maior then Charke What care they had ouer the Churches present the same care they had ouer the Churches to come afterwarde But their care ouer the Churches present was to open to them all the counsell of God Therefore they left the like prouision in writing to al posterity that they might be instructed in all the counsell of God Camp I answere to the Maior They had the same care but in such sort as it was expedient It was not expedient that they shoulde write all and euery sillable that they spake and yet notwithstanding they disclosed all the counsell of God either in speciall or generall words written Charke Uery wel then we are come to the issue of the matter and you graunt the question that all doctrine both concerning faith and maners is either in speciall or generall words conteined in the Scripture Camp I agree But heare mine answere out of S. Augustine against Crestonius Where it can not be aduouched in scripture by speciall words that the baptisme of heretikes is good yet it is deliuered in the scripture by generall wordes forasmuch as the scripture doeth command vs to obey the Church which hath allowed this baptisme being conferred in forma Ecclesiae So the doctrines not particularly discoursed in scriptures are yet conteyned in these wordes Obey your prelates The Church is the pillar and supporter of trueth And if he heare not the Church let him be to thee an Ethnike and Publicane Charke You say particular matters are conteined in those general words Obey your Prelates Do you meane that we must obey them in causes not conteined in the word Then you may binde vs to what you list and disalowe what yee please Therefore syr that I may seeke your corners and finde you out what meane you by this when you say that Generall commandementes allowe particular traditions Camp I named not traditions Charke But it is the effect and scope of your speache for obedience to your Church Prelates in matters not expressed in the Scriptures Camp I saye there be poyntes wherein wee accorde with you as the baptisme of heretiques the baptisme of infantes the holy ghost proceeding from the father and the sonne that baptisme is a Sacrament and Preaching is none being both commaunded at one time that the Eucharist is a Sacrament and washing of feete none being commanded at one time and such like c. Charke To say that the proceeding of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is not expressed in the scripture is a blasphemous speach Camp Shewe me any sentence expressing it in the scripture Charke It sufficeth to shewe it inferred in the scripture by good proofes of consequence implication But what say you to traditions decrees and such like which the Church of Rome maintayneth as the very word it selfe Let vs speake of them being now in question and not breake out into newe matters not in controuersie Camp I will not go from my question Charke You shall come to it if you take vpon you the defence of your traditions which I disproue in this maner If the Apostles left nothing vnwritten that is necessarie to saluation the scriptures are sufficient But the Apostles haue left nothing vnwritten necessarie to saluation Therefore the scriptures are sufficient Camp I graūt it as before referring it to that