one place with an other For I aske and ask them again and again by whom Scripture ought to be interpreted They will say by Scripture conferred with Scripture Here I must yet ask them again by whom the conference of one Scripture with another can be made so exactly that from hence wee may come vndoubtedly to know the true interpretation This question I will be still asking them untill they can answer it For I am sure that If I presse this question home they must be at last enforced to say that the ground of their whole Religion is the Scripture interpreted by them selves when it hath bin carefully conferred by them selves so that the very ground of their whole fayth is deceiptfull and fallible if they them selves be fallible either in interpteting or in conferring Scripture carefully or skillfully If they say their Interpretation thus made is undoubted and infallible then they can not blame us for saying that the interpretation of the Church made with as great care and skill used by her in the exact conference of one Scripture with an other is infallible 3. Stay here Deare Reader and as thou lovest thy saluation before thou goest any further ponder attentively how fallible and subject to a world of errors the ground of all such Religions must needs be which wholy and entirely are found at last to rely upon a meer human interpretation after that a meer human and most fallible diligence and skill hath bin employed in conferring one Text with an other Then ponder on the other side how incomparably surer and more justifiable in the sight of God and man the ground of that faith is which relyeth indeed on the Scripture but not on the Scripture as interpreted by private and fallible interpreters after theyr most fallible exactnesse of conferring Scripture with Scripture but which relyeth upon Scripture as interpreted by the Church after that shee with no lesse exactnes hath conferred one Scripture with an other in a generall Council having incomparable greater human abilities then those of any private mans be and having the speciall assistance of the Holy Host leading his Church into all truth Of this infallibility wee shall speak fully Point 5. 4. Now the Scripture as rightly interpreted by the Church will send us for the clearing of many doubtes unto the Church authorized by Christ to instruct and teach us as in that fift Point shall be evidenced out of Scripture The difference then between our adversaries and us is that wee affirme the Scripture as it is rightly interpreted by the Church after she hath exactly conferred in a general Councel Scripture with Scripture to be the Rule of Faith by which she decideth all necessary Controversies But our adversaries misliking the dependence on the Church will have the Scripture by it selfe alone to be a Rule sufficient to direct each one who shall carefully conferre it to judge all necessary Controversies This wee deny and though they say it in wordes yet in very deed they also come to deny what they say for let a man mark it well and he shall see that all these sectaries when they come to the maine Controversie do not take Scripture alone as conferred with Scripture only but they all take Scripture with theyr own interpretation made upon theyr own conference And if you tell them they have fayled by not taking due notice of severall other Texts in Scripture which should have been pondered in their Conference and would have produced a different interpretation they will say their own spirit tels them the contrary so that finally they who laugh at the Church for trusting to be securely guided by the Holy Ghost come to ground theyr whole fayth upon the assurance of being truly guided by theyr own spirit or judgement but let us come to what we propound and let us prove by Scripture that Scripture taken as they take it can not be a sufficient Rule to direct us in all necessary Controversies This I prove 5. First because to end all Controversies wee must at least rule our selves by al the bookes of Scripture and we must be assured wee doe so This is cleere because by no text of Scripture it can be prouved that any determed booke or number of bookes is sufficient to end all Controversies But to do this the whole number of books written by any Scripture writer is wholy requisite seeing that no Text speaks of any one or any determinate number but all speake of all Now marke to what passe this opinion brings you For if wee be to judge all necessary Controversies by all the bookes which ever were written by any Scripture writer we must necessarily have these books amongst us But wee have not in the whole world extant amongst us diverse books of Sacred Propheticall Scriptures For no fewer then twenty books of the Propheticall Pennemen of the Holy Ghost have quite perished as the learned Contzen proveth in his Preface upon the fower Ghospels and I will prove this as far as is sufficient by these following texts Iosue 10.13 Is not this written in the book of Iascker Again 1. Kinges 4.32 Salomon spoke three thousand Proverbs and his songes were one thousand and five Again 1. Chron. 29.29 The actes of David first and last are written in the book of Samuel the Seer and the book of Nathan the Prophet and the book of Gad the Seer Where be these two Prophets books Again 2. Chron. 9.29 mention is made of the books of Nathan the Prophet and the Prophesie of Ahyah and the visions Iddo the Seer And Chap 12.15 and the book Schemaiah the Prophet and of Iddo the Seer concerning Genealogies which seemes to be a different book from his book of visions before specifyed And Chap. 13.22 mention is made of the story of the Prophet Iddo And Ch. 20.34 mention is made of the book of Iehu sonne of Hanani and Ch 33.19 wee find mention of the works of the sayings of the Seers Wee know then by Scripture that what is sayd by those books is sayd by Prophets And wee also know by Scripture that God spoke in time past unto the Fathers by the Prophets 2. Pet. 1.21 Moreover we know by Scripture that Prophesie came not in old time by the will of man But the Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost 2. Pet. 1.21 Standing therefore to what is known by Scripture these bookes which have perished did deliver what was spoken by the Holy Ghost and contained the true word of God Whēce is proved that we have not now entierly the whole word of God written and this is further proved by the ensuing textes of S. Paul 1. Cor. 5.9 I wrote to you in one Epistle Note that he sayth this in his first Epistle to them Where is the Epistle which S. Paul wrote to them before he wrote the first to them I wrote to you Wee then say Give us all sacred Propheticall writings which ever were written
For then in heaven this sentence would never be ratified And tell me not that this texts speakes of private differēces betweene brother ād brother though I denie not but this is also true in such differences as belong to the Court or Tribunall of the Church yet hence evidently follows that this Text doth much more concerne those differences in point of Religion between brother and brother Both because these doe more properly belong to the Court of the Church and to her Tribunall as also because when scandal and offence is giuen to our brother in point of heresie tending to the seduction of his soule our brother seeing this soule-murthering sinne broached to his owne ruine ād to the eternall ruine of his brother hath farre greater reasō in this case thē in any other to tell the Church his mother to whome in this difference aboue all other differences it properly belongeth to looke to the safety of her childred For this is an offēce ād scandal to the whole brotherhood of all Christianity Therefore in these points of highest concernement we are most bound to heare the Church vnder paine of being accounted Publicans and Heathens and of haueing this heauie sentence ratified in heauen 5. Sixtly Matt. 23.1 Then Iesus spake to the multitudes and to his Disciples saying Vpon the chaire of Moyses haue sitten the Scribes and Pharises by which sitting with lawfull succession they as wicked as they were are knowne to be lawfully authorized Prelats all therefore whatsoever they shall say unto you observe and do Behold here a precept of obeying in all whatsoever And therefore behold a precept which could not be givē if that which is delivered by publicke authority of the Church were not secured from error in all whatsoever 6. Sevently The first and best Christians did practically acknowledge theyr beleefe of the infallibility of the Church For to have a decision of the most important Controversies Act. 15.2 they appointed Paul and Barnabas to go up and certaine others of the rest to the Apostles and Priests unto Hierusalem upon this question And the Church assembled the first Councill in which though this Councill were assisted with the Holy Ghost yet there was made a great disputation v. 7. And then the definition of the Church came forth in these words It seemeth good to the Holy Ghost and us v. 28. Other lawfull Councills knowing the Holy Ghost allso promised to them do vse to set forth theyr definitions with the same words and this most agreable to Scripture For Iohn 15. v. 26. When the Paraclete cometh whom I shall send from my father the spirit of truth he shall give testimonie of me and you shall give testimonie Marke this conjunction of he and you He the the spirit of truth and you Governers of my Church so that you in giveing testimony may freely say It seemeth good to the Holy Ghost and us 7. Eightly It is cleere out of Scripture that the first Christians were so fully possessed with the beleefe of the infallibility of the Church that they would beleeve nothing but what thy knew conformable to her doctrine S. Paul was a Scripture-writer and so great an Apostle and yet he sayeth of himselfe Gal. 2.1 Then after fourteene yeares I went to Hierusalem again not meerly to satisfie a vaine fancie of some particular men but I went up according to revelation and conferred with them the Ghospel which I preach among the Gentills But I conferred severally or a part with them that seemed to be something least perhaps I should runn or had runn in vain So that he thought all his fourteen yeares preaching and allso his future preaching might come to be in vaine vnlesse even his doctrine were made known to be approved by the Church as wholy conformable to the Church So much in these goulden dayes were the first Christians taught to relye vpon the Church which had been imprudence if she had been fallible Yet we must not thinke that then they did apprehend that the approbation of the Church did adde any degree of truth to his doctrine as it doth not add any degree of truth to the Scripture or pretend to have power to change or correct true Scripture And so S. Paul sayth v. 6. For to me they that seemed to be some thing added nothing For as the toutchstone adds no value to the gold but onely evidently manifesteth which is true gold which not so the Church as then did only manifest infallibly the truth of what he had preached So allso the Church as now doth only manifest to vs that such and such Bookes be the true word of God such and such be not such be true copies such not c. But the word of God hath its true worth from it selfe and not frō the Church as the gold hath its being true gold from it selfe and not from the toutchstone So when Catholiques say with S. Aug. Cont. Epist fundam c. 5. I would not beleeve the Ghospell unlesse the authoritie of the Church moved me they doe not meane that the Church can adde or take away from the truth of any true Scripture but they meane that by her definition as by a Sure touchstone it is now manifestly assured vnto them that such a booke is true Scripture and such not And as the orall preaching even of such an Apostle as had been a Scripture writer might have been in vain without this approbation so allso might his writings have been in vaine Whence we see that his Epistle vnto the Hebrews was not known or acknowledged as Gods word vntill the Church approved it If the Scripture writer himselfe teacheth in vaine without this approbation much more will his writings teach in vaine 8 Ninthly The Church is to be followed by vs as an assured approver or reprover of spirits and consequently as infallible Iohn 1.4 My dearest beleeve not every spirit but prove the spirits if they be of God then v. 6. We are of God he that knows God heares us Pastours of Church he that is not of God heares us not In this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of errour Here S. Iohn expresly meanes to give to posterity a standing Rule to know a true spirit from a false one To witt By the hearing of us or not hearing of us This could not be a Rule to vs who live after the Apostles if by hearing us he onely meant the Apostles and not theyr successours Yea he could not meane onely the Apostles For the other Apostles were all dead when he wrote this Wherefore the true sence of S. Iohn is In this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of errour if they heare us Pastours and Governours of the Church Not that each one of these Pastours and Governours a part can say to any one heare me vnlesse he teach that which all the rest are sufficiently knowne to teach but they in a Generall Councill may most truely say Heare us He
or give us at least some one single cleare text which tells us that wee are to end all necessary Controversies by such books alone as be now extant in the true Cannon of Scripture or else be ashamed to speak with out a text in this very question in which you affirme that all our necessary Controversies must be ended by only cleere Scripture The Controversie about this very question is one of the greatest of all Controversies and yet you would have us credit you without beeing able to bring cleer Scripture for what you say especially Scripture conferred with these now cited texts of which I dare say you never thought And though you should bring me a cleer text to prove what is desired yet where would you find a cleer text to shew me that all those twelve books yea or any one of them which you have rejected amongst the Apocrypha do not belong to the true Canon of the whole Scripture Remember I call for a text as you bid me and not for a reason against which wee have our reasons the Text say you must end all necessary Controversies Let then some Text be brought able to end this even in your own Iudgement 6. Secondly if Scripture only be the Rule to end all necessary controversies then some Ages had no such Rule at all but were destitute of all assured Rule to end theyr necessary controversies and that for two thousand and four hundred yeares together For Moses who was the first Scripture writer was not borne but after the world had stood two thousand and four hundred yeares as may be made aparent by Scripture in calculating the Ages of such as successively lived one after the other according to his own History of Genesis soo long therefore the world was with out any Scripture Scripture then is not the only Rule of true Faith seeing that Sara Rebecca and others of those times had true faith though theyr faith was only squared by the Rule of the Tradition of theyr Church as wee will see in the next Point n. 2. 7. Thirdly the Rule by which all men should be ruled in all necessary points should be in a language understood by all But it is cleere that most of the Iews in the Captivity of Babilon had lost the knowledge of the Hebrew tongue wherein the old Scripture was written Neither was the Bible translated into the Syriak language till some yeares after our Saviours death Syriak differs as much from Hebrew as Italian from Latin And the very letters differ as much as Greeke and Latin The Iews then for above fourteene Generations understood the Hebrew no more then your people now understand the Bible in Latin But of all this I shall speak more fully Point the 15. n. 1. 8. Fourthly That can not be a sufficient Rule to decide all necessary controversies which speaks not one word of many necessary controversies But the Scripture speakes not a word of many necessary Controversies Ergo first it is necessary to know which bookes of Scripture be Canonicall and which not Also whether the Canonicall bookes wee now have be alone sufficient to guide us in all necessary controversies Then whether they can do this if they be not incorrupt And how wee shall assuredly know whether they be incorrupted or not Or which is the Copie that is uncorrupt Again which is the true Translation of this Copie Again which is the true sense of this Translation and that assuredly with a cleere Text for this assurance Of these and many more particular controversies not a word in Scripture Again standing to Scripture alone the Heresy of Helvidius denying our Blessed Lady ever to have remained a Virgin seemeth rather to have had some colourable defence then any cleere jugdment givē against it by Scripture only For Matth. 1.25 He knew her not till the brought forth her first borne Sonne In which Text these words till she brought forth and those others her first borne Sonne give some colour to say she had other Sonnes afterwardes For which doctrine Helvidius was held an Heretik by S. Augustin Her 84. and by S. Hierome contra Helvidium You may see fower and twenty necessary Pointes sett downe all at large by Optatus Ductor in his Question of Questions no one of which are cleerly decided in Scripture 8. Fiftly that can not he a sufficient Rule to decide all necessary Controversies which in such controversies speakes not cleerly but is very hard to be understood as the Scripture is Whence we see all Controversies arise about the true meaning of such and such Texts So 2. Pet. 3.16 In the which Epistles of S. Paul are certeine thinges hard to be understood which the unlearned and unstable wrest as they do the other Scriptures unto theyr owne damnation Whence it is evident that damnable errors may be incurred by misinterpteting places hard to be understood And so this hardnes is found in pointes necessary to saluation For in such only damnable errors can be incurred 10. Sixtly Christ did not command any one of the Evangelistes to write his Ghospell They all did write of themselves upon particular ocasions expressed by Eusebius S. Luke tells you in his Preface why he did write uncommanded Christ then intended to leave us some other Rule then this which he never commanded to be written at all much lesse to be written so as to be to us the only Rule of Faith 11. Seaventhly by reading the Ceremoniall law given by God to Moyses soo cleerely so distinctly and so closse together in the compasse of no great book I evidently inferre that if the selfe same most prudent Lawmaker had intended in the bookes of Canonicall Scripture to deliverd unto us the sole Rule of Faith and which alone we were to follow he would not only have cleerly told us so but he would with no lesse but rather with more clarity and distinction and in a farr lesse compasse have sett downe unto us this Rule intierly and compleatly together in some one part of the Canonicall Scripture distinctly expressing all those pointes the beliefe of which he exacteth of us under paine of damnatiun For this did much more import to be done thus plainly and distinctly then the setting downe of the Iewish Ceremoneyes For is it likely that the same God who prescribed unnecessary Ceremonies to be so cleerly and distinctly set down in a few leafes to direct the Iewish Church which is but the Hand Mayd would not for the Church of Christ which is the Mistris give as clear a direction in Pointes wholy necessary to saluation But would send every one of her Children to read over the whole Bible and to pick out here one place and there an other as Protestantes say God sends us to seeke even the most necessary Pointes of our beliefe which he requires of us under paine of damnation now in this place of so vast a Vollume as the Bible is now in an other place hard by now
when he sung Psalmes whence he sayth before the Gods wee truly read the Angels I will sing prayse unto the. Psal 138.1 No man will say I le sing my song in the hearing of deaf men The Angels then could hear his song Of the letters of Elias I will speak by and by n. 5. And there I shall shew that Elias after his death knew what passed and tooke care for the people of God 4. In the new Testament Luke 15.10 There shall be joy before the Angels of God upon one sinner having done pennance No act is more interior and passeth more properly in the bottome of the hart then the Conversiō of a sinner Weeping sighing groaning knocking of the breasts may be done by Hypocrites The Angels then who joy at the conversion of a sinner must know this conversion which they cannot know unles they know the bottome of the harte by divine revelation Again Luke 16.26 Though there was a great gulf fixed between the soules of Abraham and Dives yet God gave then some meanes to hear what each of them sayd Can he then find no meanes for Saints to hear us Do not you Protestants say Abrahams soule was then in heaven Could he hear Dives from hell and can he not hear from earth those who pray to him Again there v. 29. Abraham sayd to him Dives they have Moyses and the Prophets Moyses and the Prophets lived many a yeare after Abraham was dead and yet you see Abraham knew there were such men who left such bookes to the Iewes Secondly he knew theyr bookes were yet extant Thirdly that these writings of theyrs were of no lesse efficacy to convert Dives his five Brothers then the preaching of a man risen from dead would be If you say this is but a Parable I answer that in Parables the Interlocutors must be made to speake sense and not non-sense as it would be in one of Lucians Dialogues to make Iulius Cesar discoursing with Alexander about what they had seen in Charles the fift who lived so long after theyr time 5. But I have reserved one passage of the old Testament to declare in this place how Saints even then knew what passed Elias departed out of this life whether God knows the eightenth yeare of King Iosaphat 2. Kings 2.11 Now Iosaphat reigned five and twenty yeares 2. Chron. 20.31 So that seaven yeares of Iosaphats reigne passed after the departure of Elias Then Ioram his son reigned for him 2. Chron. 21.1 After some time of this Iorams reigne v. 12. There came a writing to him from Elias the Prophet saying Thus sayth our Lord because thou hast not walked in the wayes of Iosaphat thy Father c. And then he tels him many particular wicked acts of his all done after Elias was dead Elias therefore being departed knew what passed and shewed his great care to help Gods people his Brethren in writing after his departure this letter 6. When Saints come to heaven they see farre more by the light of glory then wee can easily conceave For now 1. Cor. 13.9 in part wee know and in part wee prophecy But when that which is perfect is come then that shall be done away which is in part Hence S. Aug. l. 22. de Civit. c. 21. proveth that the Saints in heaven have more perfect knowledge of what passeth here then wee have The light of glory farre exceedeth the light of prophecy and yet by that Prophets knew many secreets of the harts and things farre out of theyr sight Samuel sayth to Saul 1. Sam. c. 9. v. 19. All that is in thy hart I will tell thee And 2. Kings 5.26 Elizeus sayd to Giezi Went not my hart with thee when the man tourned again from of his chariot to meet thee So Acts 5.4 S. Peter did see the deceiptfull hart of Ananias saying to him Why hast thou conceived this thing in thy hart Note that as the light of prophecy is not a glorious glittering without but a quality inwardly inherent in the understanding elevating it even so the light of glory is no such exteriour brightnes as some may apprehend but it is an interiour noble quality and the noblest of all qualities inherent to the understanding elevating corroborating and enabling it to a wonderfull perfection in knowledge So that it is able perfectly to see God himself Wee blind wormes very rashly make those blessed soules ignorant of our low affaires 7. Hear further to what authority over the affaires of this world God rayseth his Saints that hence you may see how much it belongs to this theyr authority to know how things passe here below Apoc. 2.26 Hee that shall overcome and keep my works unto the end I will give him power over the Nations and hee shall rule them with a rod of Iron And as a Vessell of the potter they who slight them shall be broaken Hee is a blind Ruler over Nations who knows not what passeth even in the spirituall affaires of Nations which be those affaires that belong to his ruling power Again c. 3. v. 21. He that shall overcome I will give unto him to sett with me in my throne as I allso have overcome and have sitten with my Father in his throne Do you think Saints raised by God so high have no meanes to know what wee do below Is it not sayd of the Divel Apoc. 12.10 That he accuseth our Brethren night and day which he cannot do unles he first knowes in what to accuse us A shamefull thing it is to deny this knowledge to Angels which wee grant to Divels See in the next Point n. 7. two evident Texts out of the Apocalips shewing the Angels and Saints to offer and consequently to know our prayers And note that all that I have sayd from the fourth number to this place proves the selfe same The former Texts speak indeed of only Angels but you see Saints raised to as high light of glory as those Angels besides they living so mixt with them and still enjoying theyr conversation it cannot but seeme strange that all the Angels should rejoyce at the Conversion of a sinner and the Saints should know nothing of it Again it being proved that Angels can hear us you cannot upon that account deny prayers to Angels to be lawfull seeing that they hear us as well as the Saints living upon earth whose prayers wee may lawfully crave If you say that wee are not commanded to pray to them I answer so wee are not commanded to begg one anothers prayers T is sufficient that as our spirituall necessities command us to do this so they command us much more to do that But of this in the next Point n. 1. See there n 7. two more Texts out of the Apocalips shewing Saints to hear our prayers For the 24. Seniors were Saints and not Angels yet they knew and presented our prayers made here on earth THE XXXVIII POINT That Saints can and will help us and therefore it is
After this there appeared allso another man marvelous for age and glory and for the port of great dignity about him And Onias sayd this is the lover of his Brethren This is he who prayeth much for the people and the whole Cittie Ieremy the Prophet of God And he gave to Iudas a sword of gold saying Take the Holy sword a gift from God wherewith thou shall overthrow the adversaries of my people The event confirmed the truth of this vision Origen Tom. 18. in Ioan reflecting on this place sayth It appeareth that Saints departed from this life have care of the people as it is written sayth he in the acts of the Machabees many yeares after the death of Ieremy This is Ieremy the Prophet who prayeth much for the people So that though the Books of Macabees be admitted not as Scripture but only as a true Ecclesiasticall Hystory wee have from thence that the most Holy High Priest and cheif of Gods only people believed that Saints prayed for us and helped us and that all the people who were sayd incouraged by this vision were of the same belief How farre then is this from all novelty which can be proved to have been practiced before the dayes of the Apostles and this by an authority farre greater then that of Iosephus or any such Historian to whom you would scorne to give a place in your Bible as you do to the History of the Machabees 6. Let us now come to the New Testament What motive soever moved Dives Luke 16.27 to pray to Abraham saying I would beseech the◠that thou wouldest send to my Fathers house for I have five Brethren to testify to them least they allso come to this place of torments The very same motive will worke farre more upon the hart of departed Saints to help us theyr poor Brethren from that place of torments and promote us to those eternal Tabernacles of which Christ Luke 16.9 Mak◠unto your selves friends of Mammon of iniquity that when you faile they may receive you into everlasting habitations Again Apoc. 2.26 He that shall overcome and keep my words to the end I will give him power over the nations And he shall rule them with a rod◠of Iron The Saints having authority to rule nations so powerfully as is here expressed by a rodd or scepter of Iron they exercise this theyr power chiefly by making intercession so powerfully to God for us as to obtain for us such graces as wee stand most in need of this theyr power beeing given to a spirituall end 7. And as God who is goodnes and mercy it self in an infinite degree doth notwithstanding not so shew this his mercy and bounty towards those who never pray to him as he doth to those who are incessantly begging his help So Saints cheifly are moved to aid those who are still begging theyr assistance yet true it is that they are of theyr own accord helping us So Raphael offered the prayers made to God by Toby as wee have seen in the former Point n. 3. So Apocal. 5.8 The four beasts and four and twenty elders fell before the Lambe having every one harps and golden Vials full of odours which are the prayers of Saints which prayers made by Saints on earth these Saints in heaven did know and hear for they presented them in golden vials And c. 8. v. 3. An other Angel came and stood at the Altar having a golden Censer And there was given to him much incense that he should offer it with the prayers of all Saints upon the Altar of gold which is before the throne of God and the smook of the incense which came with the prayers of the Saints ascended up before God out of the Angels hand Note that the Angel being before the throne of God did there hear the prayers of Saints in earth Secondly he did not only hear theyr prayers but allso Offer them up before the throne of God in a golden Cēser which he could not do if he had not known thē Thirdly these prayers of the Saints on earth by being thus joyntly offered up by the more fervent prayers of the Saints in heaven or H. Angels did become more acceptable to God For hēce the smook of the incēse with these prayers ascēded more sweetly and pleasantly to God from the hand of the Angel God indeed knows our prayers before the Saints or Angels offer them but he knows that they mount up lesse powerfully when they be not seconded with theyr intercession So God knew before hand that all the people answered Moyses saying to him All things that our Lord hath spoaken wee will do Exod. 19. v. 8. And yet the very next words are and Moyses returned the words of the people to our Lord. Which words were well known to God before that Moyses did returne them yet by returning them he did make by his joynt Mediation this cheerfull offer of the people more pleasing to God 8. And because he did this to theyr greater advantage Moyses himselfe sayth Deutr. 5.5 I stood between the Lord and you at that time This I note to answer the objection of our adversaries saying it is injurious to Christ to take any other Mediatour For one is our Mediatour To be a Mediatour is nothing but to stand between God and us mediating for us In this proper sense Moyses was a Mediatour between God and his people The same in the same sense may be sayd of other Saints Yet in that sense that Christ is sayd to be our only Mediatour wee make no other Mediatour For he is called Mediatour because he is so by his own worth and by his merits offered for us fully satisfying Gods anger and capable of no repulse I did know that thou dost allwayes hear me sayd Christ to his eternall father Io. 11.42 Hee is heard for the Reverence due to him as S. Paul speaks In this sense wee make no Saint Mediatour for us Wee only begg of them to pray for us as wee begg of living Saints whom by theyr prayers wee desire to mediate for us S. Paul in this sense desired the Thessalonians to mediate for him to God Brethren pray for us 1. Thess 5.25 And to Hebrewes 13.18 Pray for us And God himselfe bidds Iobs friends use the mediation or intercession of Iob promising to hear the prayers of this theyr Midiatour made for them but no where promising to hear theyr prayers made without his Mediation Yea rather intimating that he would not hear theyr prayers unles Iob mediated for them as now I shall shew 9. If you say it derogates from Christs honour that any other should help to save us I answer that Saints yet living upon earth help to save us And so Iob 42. v. 7. God tells Iobs three friends My wrath is kindled against thee Take therefore unto you seaven oxen and seaven rammes and go to my fervant Iob and offer up for your selves a burnt offering And my servant Iob shall pray