it had neuer bene séene These hastie vntruthes haue yet little spéedy successe Let vs se the residue The. B. of Saris. That they were written in Greeke and not in Latine that they could be layde vp in secrecie for the space of a thousande fiue hundred yeare and more and no man misse them Harding The .20 vntruth They were knowne to the fathers Dering It was very wrangling to begin that vntruth which common sense doth teach vs had no falshoode in it to persue it that is great ouersight but to make two of it that is extréeme follie They were kept in secrecie sayth Maister Iuell these 1500 yeares and this is true they were not openly knowne as Maister Harding himselfe doth confesse therefore they were secrete and how could they haue béene secrete except some had hid them but why doth he not tell Maister Iuels tale hole They were not knowne saith he in these countries Maister Iuell himselfe as is aforesaide doth alleage Leo and Gelasius both Bishops of Rome and Bessarion a cardinall who all condemne the booke Reade the Replie good reader and thou shalt find it true and how could they haue done it if they had neuer séene the booke This wrangling this lying thys wicked Reioinder were it not that some ignorant man might beleue it it should not haue one worde aunswered But God deliuer vs from such contagious poison The B. of Saris. Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius sayth certaine other bookes are abroade in the name of Clement as the disputation of Peter and Appion which bookes were neuer in vse among the fathers neyther containe they pure and apostolicall doctrine Harding The .21 vntruth Saint Ierom is falsified Dering It is reported of Brutus that he was woont to say he had spent his time euill that coulde denie nothing M Harding perhaps to eschew this blame hath prepared himself when it pleaseth him to denie any thing The fault that Maister Iuell here findeth with Clement is that by the testimonie of Saint Ierom his bookes are not pure and apostolicall It is neuer a worde so saith Maister Harding Saint Ierom is falsified If Brutus were now aliue peraduenture M. Harding might be commended But bicause Saint Iohn hath bid vs not to beléeue euery spirite euery bold asseueration must not stand for true Let vs sée what Ierom himself sayth and we shall iudge the better whether Maister Iuels report be true or no. Thus he writeth The olde writers haue quite reiected these other bookes ascribed to Clement And Eusebius in his third booke of the ecclesiasticall historie doth reproue them Now except Maister Harding will say that the Apostles writing is condemned of these olde writers and catholike fathers or that Eusebius that good bishop of Caesarea reproueth their doctrine Why will he not haue his Clement to be accounted not apostolicall whom the old fathers reiect and Eusebius reproueth The substaunce of such vntruthes doe make the gatherer appeare either ignorant or euill disposed Harding The .22 vntruth Dering Here Maister Harding maketh one vntruth ioyntly out of Saint Ierom and Eusebius where Maister Iuel saith Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius saith thus c. M. Harding for the better multiplying of vntruthes saith first Saint Ierom sayth it not next Eusebius sayth it not thirdly they say it not Had he dwelt among the Lacedemonians for this great talke of vntruthes little reason in shewing them he should surely haue bene accounted for a babler If we graunt that his sayings are true yet are these thre but one vntruth and that not made by M. Iuell but by S. Ierom. Thus we sée when it pleaseth him he will not vnderstand neither the common phrase of speaking nor what is ment by plaine sayings Again when it pleaseth him he will vse more Logicke then either is true or honest Such a Proteus he is in his owne vnderstanding The. B. of Saris. Clement is condemned by Gelasius Harding The .23 vntruth It is not condemned by him Dering Nowe Maister Harding is come to his olde compasse He denieth he careth not what Nothing shall want a bold asseueration if his simple authoritie may proue any vntruth but let vs not trust him before we trie him so we shall knowe the better what Gelasius sayth His wordes are thus reported by Gracian We haue thought good to note certain bookes which are come to knowledge and ought to be auoyded of catholike people First the councell holden at Ariminum gathered by Constantine the Emperour the sonne of Constantinus by meane of Taurus lieutenant from thenceforth and for euer we iudge worthy to be condemned Likewyse the Iournall of Peter the Apostle bearing y e name of Clement Eight bookes are secrete vnlawfull writings Nowe consider with these wordes of Gelasius this booke which for his Masse sake M. Harding doth so much defende It goeth vnder the name of Clement so doth that which Gelasius condemneth It contayneth .viii. bookes and so doth that They are accoūted Apocrypha secret writings and so are the other Beside this Gelasius condemneth a booke called the Iournall of Peter and this Clement himselfe sayth that S Peter willed him to write that booke but yet vnder this title that it should be called the Iournall of Clement And to conclude those bookes condemned by Gelasius teach euill doctrine and so doth this Clement And shall Maister Hardings plaine wordes counteruaile so much likelihoode Well may those erre that néedes will be deceyued But among the louers of truth such vntruthes will be very odious The B. of Saris. Abdias was conuersant with Christ. Harding The .24 vntruth I say not he was conuersant with Christ. Dering Maister Harding may score vp his vntruthes after what sorte it pleaseth him but any indifferent man must needes thinke that Maister Iuell doth not falsifie his wordes when he layth them altogither euen as they are written If in repetition of any part of them he doe mistake the meaning such error deserueth verye little blame But bicause M. Harding is so farre driuen that if he should let slip euen the least aduauntage he shoulde sustaine great losse of his whole cause let vs examine all that is reproued and yéelde vnto the vtmost that may appéere faultie I say not saith he that Abdias was conuersant with Christ. But he sayth he saw Christ in the flesh and wrote diuers histories of the Apostles doings at which he himselfe was present of this to say he was conuersant with Christ is scarce worth the fault finding Yet maister Harding sayth stifly he onely sawe Christ in the flesh he was not conuersaunt with him By like he looked through the creuice with Eubulus when Christ helped Saint Basil to Masse and by that meanes Abdias could but sée him The B. of Saris. Lazius sayth that Saint Luke borrowed whole histories worde for worde out of Abdias Harding The .25 vntruth Lazius sayth not so Dering Here is first a very graue note in a weighty
your minde what hath moued you to enter so farre Next how faithfully you haue delt in the same Then what rewarde you may looke for in the ende Dering Of this wicked Epistle gentle reader thou art now come to the peroration although it be long and odious as the maner of olde buyldinges is to haue wide ruinous kitchins yet thou shalt do well to reade it to learne to take héede of such manner doing and although the filthy synckes be somewhat lothsome at the first yet by the grace of God the sauor shall not infect thée First saith he what moued you to enter so farre Doublesse Maister Harding the frée mercy of God the father poured vpon him through Iesus Christ this was the efficient cause His ende was to glorifie God that God might glorifie him againe for his faithfull dealing It hath ben such as flesh and bloude coulde suffer That which is wanting shall be accounted vnto him by the merit of his sauiour Iesus Christ. The rewarde that he looketh for is not of merite but of grace and it is the inheritaunce of that kingdome which was the porcion of Gods chosen ordeined from y e beginning Now these beginnings being thus Maister Hardings further running can be but hastening to new lyes what so euer he shall further say of Maister Iuells profession These other vngodly woords y t came after full of much bitternesse are not worthy aunswere Euery one may inuent them that delighteth in euill speaking and they can not cary any good man to mistrust Harding ¶ If this councell can not sincke into you if neither this nor any other the like aduise shall take place with you what is my parte to do but to leaue you to your selfe and to the will of God Dering After sundry waies atempted how Maister Harding might bring our doinges into suspition at the last very modestlye he doth leaue vs vnto God but by and by he breaketh out againe he cannot suppresse his coler and for a full proofe that all his fayer speaking is hipocrisy he raueth streight so out of measure that he doth excéede him selfe not prouing anye thing but as if his worde were Apollos oracle he presumeth with out controlle to speake what he listeth and goeth away so fast in his frothy matter that contrary to his woonted cunning he forgetteth how to speake for after a great heape of words of which euery one according to his number doth specifie a new vntruth he writeth thus Leaue to do as not only through your whole Replye but also through your first article you haue done Who euer spake after this maner what writer what scholer what childe when 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie nothing This phrase of Maister Hardings shal be allowable but that surely he shall not onelye neuer proue but also not before he set out his next booke After this vncomelye speaking he bringeth in very absurd matter and chargeth Maister Iuell bicause he bolstreth vp his Religion with the authorities of late wryters Yet where Maister Harding bringeth one sentence out of the olde fathers giue me leaue in a doutfull matter to vse one of Maister Hardings gesses Maister Iuell I thinke bringeth twenty But what forceth he to speake that speaketh he knoweth not what Harding ¶ If you intend to write against any of our Treatises cul not out our sayings forth of a whole heape as your maner is leauing what toueheth the point in controuersie and taking parte that being put alone and besides the rest semeth to haue lesse force Dering It were hard to finde such an other Caligula that so approueth this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a shamlesse behauiour in him selfe He chargeth Maister Iuel with culling out of sentences who layeth forth his whole aunswere word for worde and findeth no fault with him selfe that skippeth at aduentures sometime two leaues at once and aunswereth not a worde Againe about this he vseth a heap of vaine words as though in much bibble babble all controuersy were decyded This maner of wryting doeth make me remember a certaine Lacedomian which tooke a nightingale and pulling of hir fethers when he saw hir little body thou art euen a voice saide he and nothing else and surely Maister Harding is but a nightingale take away his fethers that is his gaye wordes and there is nothing but a little withered carcase vnderneth He accuseth Maister Iuell of a childish wit but with how childish a iudgement who séeth not I will make no comparison of the man he hath nothing which he hath not receiued if any man doe not thinke hym as well learned as anye Englishe Louanist if Apollo might awarde him his hyre he shoulde haue Midas eares It forceth not what correction Maister Harding vseth to discredite his Replie All the learned men in Englād will seale it with their iudgement y t it sheweth a rare replier He talketh of burning it and no doubt him selfe woulde cary a fagot to helpe make the fyre but it is cast in a good moulde and shall kéepe his fashion notwithstanding this rable of new carpenters that woulde disfigure it Harding ¶ Remember Maister Iewel it is the cause of God you would seme to treate God hath no nede of your Lyes Leaue wrangling ieasting scorning mocking scoffing Contend not about wordes and syllables forsaking the matter Obscure not the truth with vaine Rethorique ouerwhelme it not with your abundance of woordes Bring not confusion to the matter when it is cleare of it selfe make not shew of victorie where you are least able to answere Make not your reader to laugh where he would be taught Affect not so much to be pleasant seeke rather to be a true handler of Gods causes Put not the hope of your victory in the coldenesse of your Aduersary but in the truth of the matter Refuse not to stand to their iudgemēt alleadged against you whose witnesse you bring for you Allow not a writer in one place condemning him in an other place Dering Nowe sure if Mayster Harding were a boy in the Grammer schoole for this pretie tale he deserued to go to play I haue not séene one in copia verborum varie a sentence more handsomly And how shall all this be aunswered Euen as Cleomenes aunswered the Ambassadours from Samos to such a long oration of so little purpose the whole hangeth so loosely that the beginning I can not remember and therefore I vnderstand not the middest but such things as are in the end are altogither disalowed For Mayster harding sayth in the ende he is a colde aduersary if he meane colde in religion it may be well graunted if otherwise colde it may not be alowed looke what heate of wordes eyther will or abilitie can vtter in his Epistle and Reioynder there is nothing wanting Hardyng ¶ If you wil vse the testimonie of the Scholemen and Canonists consider it to bee reason that you subscribe to their fayth It is well knowne
victorie Such Hercules buskins he can applie to little leggs and make so great vaunts where himselfe is furthest deceyued The B. of Saris. The name of Masse is seldome or neuer found among the Catholyke fathers Hardyng The .17 vntruth It is often found among the olde writers Dering Note good Reader how this man feareth not to note vntruthes so his number may grow This word is seldom found â—aith Maister Iuell in the catholike fathers it is found often sayth he in olde writers as though who soeuer were auncient he were straite way Catholyke Himselfe hath remoued in the 21. vntruth certaine commentaries of Ierom. And I must certifie thée there be other which notwithstanding their age yet haue no more authoritie than olde Aesopes fables Then notwithstanding Maister Hardings note of olde wryters yet M. Iuels saying of the catholike fathers may be true But I will not vrge Maister Hardings wordes admit he ment no guile in the naming of olde wryters How proueth he this vntruth He bringeth in .ix. fathers and counsels in which this worde Masse is found he sayth he could bring thrée mo that is .xii. in all The olde bookes which are written are almost infinite so in .12000 bookes he can finde that he seeketh for but .12 times yet sayth he it is found often Maister Iuell graunteth it is found somtimes Such vntruthes wil soone shame the controller Now this worde Masse or Missa least it shoulde beguile thée for that it is sometime in catholike fathers I will brieflye declare vnto thée what it is and in what sence it is found That which maister Harding calleth so ofte the Masse as Basils Masse Chrisostomes Masse and Iames his Masse in Gréeke it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth an open or common function and this signification it hath as well in prophane writers as in the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sayth Aristotle he is occupied in the administration of the commoÌ„ wealth and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to execute common offices So 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the open worshippinges and seruice of their Gods In like sort it is vsed in the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as they were openlye preaching and Saint Paule sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that I might be an open minister among the Gentiles and this is proued by the Etimologie or true explication of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quasi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that hath common businesse in hande Hereby it appeareth that eyther M. Hardings Masse is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and so neyther Chrisostome nor Iames nor Basil nor the other Gréeke authors euer sayde or named Masse or if they did the verye worde doth quite ouerthrow the priuate Masse As touching the Latine worde Missa we haue to learne it as the fathers sayde remissa for remissio so also they sayd missa for missio that is a sending away when in the primatiue Church such as were Nouices in christian fayth were sent away from the true beleuers which was before the communion And this appeareth by Saint Augustine where he sayth Ecce post sermonem fit missa cathecumenis manebunt fideles venietur ad locum orationis Beholde after the sermon the Nouices are dimissed the faythfull shall abyde and shall go vnto the communion For so maister Harding doth witnesse that orationis in Saint Augustine doth signifie and in déede in this place it is true Here haue we thrée especiall things to note the craft and subtilitie of Maister Harding and his friend Stapleton who both as it may be well thought vpon conference haue aledged the same places oute of doctors and councels where this worde Misâ—a is found and yet neyther haue mencioned this place of Augustine If they knewe it not they are not of that reading they pretend if they knew it it is to maliciously concealed Secondarily there abode no more in the Church but such as were communicants So this late gazing at a popish Masse was not then in vse Thirdly they did all communicate and then where was priuate Masse So this gorgious shewe to bleare the simple peoples eyes with the antiquitie of this worde Masse is an inuincible argument whereby pryuate Masse doth fall Examine the places that they themselues bring thou canst not wreast any likelihoode of priuate Masse out of them Yet this is moreouer to be noted that within .380 yeares after Christ the worde was neuer named in any probable author whereby it sufficiently appeareth that it was neuer knowne in Christes time nor in his Apostles after him And thus much of this worde Masse The B. of Saris. Clement was very lately found in the yle of Candie by one Carolus Capellius a Venetian written in Greeke and in these Countreis neuer heard of nor seene before Harding The .19 vntruth It hath beene seene before Dering Here Maister Harding committeth thrée great faults the one to charge maister Iuel with an vntruth when he alleageth Peter Crabs authority an other for misconstruing those wordes which are plaine and common the thirde for clipping of Maister Iuels wordes For where he wryteth it was neuer séene in these couÌ„treis Maister Harding quoteth his vntruth it hath beene séene But considering these poore shiftes wherevnto maister Harding is driuen I will graunt these wordes to be maister Iuels that it was neuer séene Who knoweth not that neuer here signifieth of long time or seldom if it had béene neuer séene howe could it haue bene written These grosse gatherings in so fine a wit néedes must sauour of malice It is the phrase of al laÌ„guages 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Saith Achilles they did neuer wast my fertile fieldes in Pthia yet not many yeres before were great iniuries done by the Troians eueÌ„ in Achilles countrey So Agamemnon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 O prophet of harmes thou neuer yet toldest me pleasant things Yet it were much for M. Harding to say Calchas pleased not Agamemnon when he foretolde what tyme Troie should be destroyed In lyke maner sayth Euripides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 There was neuer good son of an euill father yet was Ezechias good of wicked Ahaz So in the common prouerbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more auncient than the worlde we meane great continuance We say the same in Latine NunquaÌ„ tam palestricus praetor There was neuer such a wrastling chiefe Iustice meaning very seldome And in our english I neuer sawe such an other But what we meane by it that in déede was neuer doubted of neyther is Maister Harding so simple that he knoweth it not but he had rather speake against his owne knowledge then say nothing against Maister Iuell This is ynough to any indifferent reader to shewe that these vntruthes are but wranglings But read the replie and thou must néedes confesse it were thou neuer so parciall For Maister Iuell himselfe alleageth Leo Gelasius Bessarion which disalow this booke and how could that be if
of the handes and casting vp of the eyes to heauen and with your lamentable crying out of your Oos which you vse very commonly weening thereby to perswade the simple your stoute asseuerations your fauour of the common people and others that clap you on the shoulder your vaine Pulpet buzzing your Gloria patri at Pauls crosse all this hath made many a one beleue that M. Iuell was a great Clarcke a piller of the Gospell a peerelesse fellow But now that you haue sayd all that you and your whole side had to say now that you haue discouered that lay hid before now that your best stoare is laid abroade now that you haue made the world witnesse of the proofes you haue for your doctrine they that haue but meane skill behold a further weakenesse to be on your side then before they had conceiued Better it had beene for you ye had mayntained your opinion and estimation among your own deceiued brotherhed with silence and with your accustomed craking without shewing forth any proofes Dering Now is M. Harding come to his pretye solace with one Megabises a great man of little name in his own deuice lyking him selfe well forceth much his eloquence as if the Owle were the fairest bird in the wood But we shoulde doe him much wrong to barre him of his pastime that hath nothing else to comfort himselfe withall His cause is nought his bookes are contemned his credite is lost and that whych gréeueth him most of all he hath made an vnequall matche In these extremities what if he vse his tongue at will Megabises he both can do but litle harme The one doth but milke an hée Goate while the other doth holde vnder a syue It is now no time to spreade abroade anye cunning to prooue my Lord of Sarisbury is not learned as long as his Replye lyueth and it shall lyue till his aduersaries be confounded Neither his square Cap nor his Rochet nor his sightly state nor his Bishopricke shall at all commende him We haue the testimonies of his minde which God hath made so bewtifull that all his other ornaments are knowen to be to fewe yet concerning his good estate I doe aunswere with Salomon God ouerthroweth the wicked and they are not but the houses of the righteous shall stand For thys description of hys maner of preaching first it becommeth Diogoras better than a Diuine Then what skilleth it though Zoilus or Zerophanes doe scoffe at Homer Pardon me M. Harding if I say the truth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is easier for you to mocke at it then to doe the like But what meane you thus bitterly to raile at his preaching Why iest you at his lamētacion for the peoples disobedience Haue you lost both your cause and your learning togither Uerily whē your Pope was Deane of S. Paules there was then neither lifting vp of handes nor bringing downe of hartes neither crying out of Oos nor inward grief of Iis neither yet gloria patri nor mors praedicata filij You might heare the heauens harmonie for anie pulpet noyse yet loftye descant within amonge the Balamites organe pipings at pleasure and although no pulpet yet goodly chauncell buzzing I maruail you durst make mention of his preaching But such is the blind mans hap that séeth not his way by making haste goeth ouer his shooes ere he be aware in the mire Hardyng ¶ Howe little truth you haue for your side and howe many vntruthes you haue vttered by your replie partlye by this Reioynder and more largely by the labours of other men it shalbe declared Dering Nowe after this long a doe what proofe bringeth Maister Harding against this Replie for sooth he referreth vs partly to this Reioinder partly to the bird in y e bush that is to other proofes that shall come hereafter I knowe not well in thys case what to write If I shoulde vnrippe this Reioynder and shew all the faultes it hath then os impudentia a bande of Louanistes cry out in the ayre of lyings corruptions misconstruings alterations and a thousand such other Some sende ouer their pamfletes some returne their vntruthes some whet leaden hatchets some séeke reall presence some make blinde discourses some hunt out their Purgatorie some fight for their images some stumble on their rocke and suche as can doe nothing else cry beware of M. Iuell But truth must not be still for feare of the sclaunderer God giue vs grace to take héede of thys Reioynder in vttering of an heresie it is more talking thā the Turtle in speaking out the truth more dumme than a Fish in auoiding authorities more winding than the Serpent in resisting Gods spirite more hard than yron in substance an open market of all maner of euill We that sée it doe giue God the prayse that maketh his truth to shine through so many cloudes They that fauour their doings may bewayle wyth Andromache lifting vp Astionax handes Spes nullas habet Troia si istas habet Troy hath no hope at all yf it haue no hope but this Concerning those other proofes that shall come hereafter I can say but this pro boscide vnius abscissa monstratum est mori posse belluas we know by this Reioynder all your other bookes are soone aunswered Harding ¶ As concerning your aunswere to my preface it is lyke the rest of your booke all together voyde of truth and plaine dealing c. that you haue discouered our wants therein you speake vntruly Dering Now is M. Harding come to the defence of his Preface and as his manner is blaming M. Iuels whole writing reioyneth as hée séeth good where it liketh him best and first boldlye ynough denieth that M. Iuell coulde discouer anye wants on their side But alas this is but a bragge Is there no want on their side Why then doth he handle his friends so vngentlie Why turneth he them ouer to their owne defence Why dissent they one from an other If perhaps he say their Church hath no wants his owne fellowes are against him Scotus sayth the Churche hath somewhere the harder part Their Councels conclude some one against an other some against the Apostles them selues Their Popes haue extremelye hated one an other in suche sorte as neuer Turke or Infidell hath done the like Yea such is the impudencie of their Church and so little account they make of disagrement that they would make Christes Apostles teache one contrary to other The .6 Canon and the .40 Canon and the .50 Canon of the Apostles alow the mariage of priestes the .25 Canon forbiddeth them to marrye The .80 Canon of the Apostles doth straightlye charge and commaunde that no Bishop or Priest do debase him selfe to any worldlye labour and alledge for their purpose this scripture No man can serue two maisters And yet the cōstitutions of the same Apostles doe quite contrary and commaund that the Priests do labour vsing their own example of which some were
Fishermen some Tentmakers some Husbandmen and suche like this contrarietie of Apostles could neuer be in Christes Apostles Then by like M. Hardings Church that is faine to make them Apostles hath some wants And yet bicause M. Iuell sayd thus much he falleth out in a rage that his Challenge was foolish his Replie without learning his arrogancie much his Gospell false his weakenes discouered his modestie stained and I wot not what A heape of shamelesse lies in halfe a side of a lease The Challenge was foolish yet Harding Dorman Rastell Marshall Stapleton Heskins Saunders and Shacklocke doe sweate these .iiii. or .v. yeares about it and are neuer the neare The Replie was vnlearned Yet M. Harding in a yeare could reioyne but with a few leaues and that non absque theseo Summysts or Glosesearchers euerie one doth helpe a little Concerning these other sclaunders his pride can not be much that alwayes commendeth his aduersaries cunning His Gospell is not false that embraceth nothing but the Gospell of Christ. His weakenesse is litle that is vpholden with so manye authorities His modestie is not stained whose enimie euill reporteth him Nor his bragges are manie where the victorie abideth Therfore this filthie fome of such vncomely railing doth rather bewray the sicknes of the wryters mynde then reproue the person against whom it is vttered Harding ¶ That you loked fiercely and shoke your sword terribly I sayd it not as you reporte me c. from thence to digresse to the odious vpbraiding vs with crueltie c. it was more spitefull then pertinent to the matter Dering Maister Harding much blameth the racking of this example but he may not nowe well discemble his meaning His owne writinges and Maister Shacklocks old withered trée doe showe howe gladly they woulde bring vs into hatred oâ— bloudinesse and when they secretly insinuate it is it not wisdome to bring open remedies They may not well discharge them selues of such secrete doinges Maister Harding was but little gone in this Epistle when he would closely séeme to be Appelles But his painting was not singular and therfore I passed it ouer After that he hath saide in this matter what he can he commeth to his woonted rhetorike of Runnagates Apostataes Forsakers and Rebels as if he were talking of him selfe or Staphylus and such companions But Maister Hardings mouth is no slaunder our constancy is yet vnblamable He blameth much our vncourtesy towarde our aduersaries but he sheweth not wherin we do so euill entreat them We neither tye them vp in cheines nor shut them vp in cole houses Perhaps he will saye they are in â—uraunce Yet that is but his own false surmise Their great good lyking is a token of little hard handling As touching these manye yffes of the beginning of Maister Iuels profession they néede no aunswere What he ment a godlye man maye iudge in seing gods blessing of his proceadinges He findeth not hym selfe guilty with Core Dathan and Abiron in gods mercies he feareth not the fall of Lucifer And as you Maister Harding haue regarde to the saluation of your soule for Christes sake he requireth you to enter into your owne conscience If promotion made you shrinke remember Ieroboam that made Israel to synne If shame make you coÌ„tinue remember Pharao that would not yéeld to Moyses What euer kepeth you back from the true ioye of Gods gospell remember Iulianus You shall crye in time vicisti Galilee O Galilean thou hast the victory Harding ¶ That you were enforced therto by our importunity as you say who can beleue you For who of vs al troubled you Who prouoked you Who did so much as pull you by the sleue Had you not before shut vs vp c. Dering Where he denieth that M. Iuell was prouoked by their importunitie and thereto rayseth a heape of his idle questions what priuate cause he had I know not Of their great importuniti all the world is witnesse What if M. Bonner were in prison that had tied vp so many What if testie M. Watson held his peace Or what if M. Harding were quiet Are there no moe enimies of Gods truth but they Was all at rest Was al husht Was not the world dayly seduced by their popery Was not Christes merites darkned Antichrist stil fighting for his seate in the temple And will not this importunitye stirre vp a good Byshop I pray you M. Harding I speake it not to vpbraide you but to admonish Gods people what if your watchmen were blinde and had no knowledge what if they were domme Dogs and they would not barke what if they laye a sléepe and delited in sléeping doo you thinke therefore that the vigilant pastor of Sarisburie coulde sée the woolfe come and runne awaye sée the théefe and kéepe silence Your great murderer Hosius was buste your Sorbonists wer occupied your Louanists at their labour this might moue the byshop though a few of you foxes dyd not much trouble y â— fold dissemble not your knowledge for shame anie longer confesse this was great cause both of griefe and vehemency Hardyng You finde fault with my want of modesty for shewyng forth your bosting for my part I pray God I be neuer found more faulty for want of modestie Dering Maister Harding excuseth him selfe that he hath not passed modestie and prayeth God that therein hée be neuer founde more faultie but whosoeuer readeth ouer his writing and raketh vp togither the scourings of his modestie shall finde such a heape of railings that if he yet feare going ouer them it is very true that he that is once past shame is like to proue notoriously impudent But it skilleth not much how immodest he be in writing that defendeth such a shamelesse cause Hardyng ¶ If the truth you meane were manifest and knowen why could not Luther see it by whose spectacles you haue espied many pointes of your Gospel by his minde the truth of you that be Caluinistes is not manifest Dering Now M. Harding falleth into his common place of Luther and Caluine and those men the more excellent their vertues were the more opprobriousâ—ye he reporteth them I could haue wished in the one lesse vehemencie But it was a froward world when he first preached the people coulde not be wonne with entreatie The other may be a spectacle in al posteritie to behold the great mercies of God that endued his sinfull creatures with so rare vertues He preached so often and wrote so many bookes that if the truth bare not witnesse it might séeme incredible He expounded the scriptures in such vertue of the spirite giue me leaue to speake as I thinke seing all is to the glorye of God that neither S. Augustine nor S. Ierom the great lightes of Gods church haue euer done the like But let such men rest in the peace of the Church Maister Hardings reuilings can not blemish their good names After this he expoundeth his meaning in calling Maister Iuell Goliah which he saith he
the Moonke was the messenger Now to quit these negatiues with which M. Harding is so well pleased with like negatiues we may well and truly ouerthrow all popish religion taking example of our sauiour Christes doing For he neuer alowed of their ceremonies He neuer celebrated his last supper alone He neuer ministred in one kinde He neuer made any vniuersall bishop He neuer named Transubstantiacion Masse Mattens Euensong Dirige nor Trentals He neuer went a procession with cope crosse or candlesticke He neuer â—ensed Image nor sang Latin seruice He neuer went to shrift nor sat in confession He neuer preached of Purgatorie nor pardons He neuer honored Saintes nor praied for the dead He neuer fasted Friday Uigil Lent nor Aduent He neuer hallowed Churche nor chalice ashes nor palmes candels nor bels He neuer made holy water nor holy bread He neuer wore Rochet nor Tippet He neuer had Crosse nor Myter Corporas nor Portas shepebooke nor Massebooke Frankincense nor Peterpence wax nor flax nor any such trumperie And therefore by these negatiues we may well conclude that M. Hardings religion is not of Christes institution Harding ¶ Vpon this negatiue it liketh you well to dally and bicause say you it offendeth vs you wyll turne it on our side c. And when you haue made all your turnings you doe as muche for vs as if you gaue a Snake for an Adder c. What proofes we haue and how iustlye we confute your Obiections and Replies let our treatises be examined Dering Maister Iuels negatiue is this that they can not prooue by Scripture Doctour Councell or anye example anye one of these articles which are called into controuersie This negatiue misliketh them Therfore sayth M. Iuell we will take the affirmatiue and prooue their religion not to come from Christes Apostles This I trow is not to dallie but plainlye and vnfainedly to séeke 〈◊〉 the truth Yet saith Maister Harding this is a Snake in stede of an Adder in deede it is true the calling of these articles into question hath stoonge that whorish religion euen vnto death And that Aesculapius Adder that hath lurked so long in Rome for all his quicke sight is by this meanes discouered God be praysed for it for euer and euer Wher Maister Harding saith further let this matter be tried by treatisies I feare not such iudges for sure of all mens doinges their owne lyinges dreamings visions oracles coniurings and such deuises haue giuen their religion the greatest ouerthrowe Hardyng ¶ You report my wordes vntruly as your common maner is making men beleue although I sayd all these articles were of light importaunce c. The lightest of them is of weight to drawe you downe to the rufull state of damned soules if for maintenaunce of your priuate opinion you feare not to breake the vnitie of the church Yet as though I had said what you faslie report me to say you procede and scoffingly demauÌ„d whether ye may thinke that our religion encreaseth and vadeth waxeth and waneth as doth the moone Dering These be Maister Hardings woordes in his Preface to his aunswere Why treate you not of matters of more importance then these be of which yet lye in question betwene the church of Rome and the Protestantes As the presence of Christes bodye and bloude in the Sacrament of Iustification of the value of good woorkes of the Sacrifice of the Masse c. Thys obscure manner of speaking maye séeme to make light of these waightye mattters and therefore who so euer should say so of them deserued litle blame But héere Maister Hardings choler is to much inflamed bicause Maiste Iuell noting their inconstancie asketh whether their Religion encreaseth and vadeth waxeth and waneth as doeth the moone And hath he not thinke you good occasion to aske this question Doeth not Maister Harding saye in many of these articles that they be no keyes of their Religion Yet héere he saith if a man denie them when they be receiued they are of value inoughe to dampne him Where is his wit become What is so contrary to it selfe as this What is waxing and waning What is increasing and vading if this be none And what Christian eares can abide this saying that suche trifels as they be of them selues and such filthy whooredomes as they be now made of should condempne vs if we shoulde speake against them He paide not the price of soules that so easily sendeth them away from ther maister vnto Satan The casting awaie such scourings of the Romish vncleannes shall neuer doo it nay it is a witnesse vnto our consciences that we be the children of the highest Hardyng ¶ Concerning the rest of your aunswere wherin you treat certaine coÌ„mon places vtter much spite against the Pope c. against transubstanciatioÌ„ against inuocation of saints against aultars c. Prayer for the dead you condemne and shew no cause why c. I thinke good to let passe and contemne it Dering Now sure well done maister Harding where you can not reade skip ouer but take good héede least in your lâ—aping you hurt your selfe and do your cause no good If men shal vnderstand that you wil not alow the authority of Pope Nicolaus Pope Leo Pope Boniface Pope Sergius and the common Law all which Maister Iuell alledgeth you shall make the Pope that now is beshrew you and so peraduenture you shal get a curse and you shall make all good Christian people mistrust you Of transubstantiation aultars we will say more héereafter Prayer to saintes is now nighe forgotten You aske in the margine why we doe not aunswere the booke of Purgatory In déede now you come to the point This article is very auncient about .1900 yeares a gone Plato spake of it in his booke de animo where this your cleansing place hath his first ground foundation And therfore for our good and sufficient discharge in this matter I aunswere out of the same booke of Plato We meddle not with your booke of purgatory bicause we feare not our shadowes You know that y e yoÌ„g nouice in Philosophy feared not y e three hedded Cerberus the roring of Cocytus the rolling stone of Sisyphus and how shoulde we feare your painted paper walles of Purgatory Christ is our Sauiour God engraffe in vs a desire to be with him and for my part sith purgatory hath no graunt in Gods woord I recken it scarce woorthy aunswer Yet bicause you ar importune somwhat shall be sayd hereafter Hardyng ¶ You haue piked out or set some a worke to pike out for you all the tearmes and woordes vsed in my booke which a good man may iustly bestow in rebuke of vice vpon euill men c. Dering Héere Maister Harding is fallen into a very shamelesse veine of writing and thinketh good at large to excuse his own modesty The woordes in which he séeketh after it are these Thersites Goliath Heathens Publicanes sacramentaries Lucians scoffers rashe presumtuous ignorant péeuishe and
for he saith as Maister Iuell alledgeth not onely the priest sacrificeth but also the whole company of the faithful But what maketh this for Maister Harding The priest and the people both doe sacrifice therefore is there no difference in the ministerye S. Peter saith you are a kingly Priesthood therfore is ther no difference in the function betwene the minister and the laye man True it is that the minister and the people do offer vp a lyke one sacrifice vnto God but that maketh nothing to Maister Hardings saying Thus we se while he hobbeth and roueth and shooteth at euery marke a lie he was an hypocrite when he was at the best and nowe is led forwarde still to be an open enimie Reade the .222 vntruth An other péece of thys marke is this that men and women make the sacrifice of the aulter and be Priests after the order of Melchisedech Of this reade the .158 vntruth The last péece of thys marke is yet woorst of all nothing else but malice slaunder and wickednesse here agaynst M. Iuell bicause he wryteth not one such woord and commonlye agaynst the truth of God which the wicked doe alwaye peruert And this is that marke that God is the author of euill and driueth men to sin What should I here aunswere but euen saye with the Prophet The scornful haue said We haue made falshood our refuge and vnder vanitie we are hid If euerye such euyll saying myght clayme an aunswere M. Hardings one Reioynder would require many volumes But for a sufficient contentation of the Reader I say in all M. Iuels booke there is no one such woord I adde further nor in all the bookes that euer were wrytten by any godly man of M. Iuels profession Let M. Harding or all hys companions in searching ouer theyr wrytings bryng but one letter whereby we may gesse that euer such a saying was ment and for my part let hys writings be approued If he can not doe this consider of hys religion He would not speake wyckedlye for Gods defence nor talke deceitfully for his cause If anye man require what our opinon is let hym reade any learned man intreating of the predestination of God or of mans frée wyll or for a better warrant let him reade the scriptures it selfe We say al that God made was very good He created man in honour and gaue hym frée wyll and man of himselfe gaue place to inordinate affections where hee might haue obeyed Gods woord euen as it is written He hath set water and fire before thée stretch out thy hand vnto which thou wilt And agayne God created man without corruptiō And concerning sinne we say through the enuy of the Deuill came death into the world Neither néede we make exception agaynst this authoritie bicause it is not in the canō For the Apostle doth authorize it where he writeth He that committeth sinne is of the Deuil For the Deuill sinneth euen from the beginning And in an other place Diabolus est mendax pater eius the Deuill is a lyer and the father thereof not as your friende Mayster Dorman doth interprete it and so was hys father before hym for that were in déede to make God the authour of euill which is the marke you talke of Now euen as the Deuill is authour of euil so we by his suggestiō haue the next cause in our selues which is an vncleane hart lyke as our Sauiour saith Out of the hart procéede euil cogitations c. Of God we say and we say againe and we preache it and we wryte and beleue it and in it we reioyce that God is neyther the author of euyll neyther yet would it should be committed The shepe goe astray without the shepherdes wyll The groate is lost and the poore woman would not so Christ woulde gather togither Ierusalem as the Hen doth hir Chickens but they would not But this we say that the wayes of God are not like the wayes of men that he should not know what thynges were to come He could not be deceiued in his own creature He did foresée the fall of Adam and by his omnipotency could haue made him stand For who can resist hys will He coulde haue made him so pure that he should not haue sinned euen as he hath now made his Aungels and wyll make the whole number of his elect that no man anye more shall take awaye theyr ioye from them And as we are sure this is Gods omnipotēcy so why he did it not we cā not assigne any cause but bicause he would not For we knowe he hath done al things that he woulde Yet a cause ther was and that a most iust and good cause For their is no iniquity with him And this cause he did knowe in his eternall secret counsell before all worldes for as much as all thinges are present with him To enter further into Gods councell and aske why he appointed such a course in which the reprobate both Angels and men shoulde fall away this were presumptuous folly Shall the pot say vnto the potter why hast thou made me so The Godly will staye here and in the feare and loue of God wil professe and beleue both that God ruleth all thinges with his mighty worde and yet wylleth he no man to sinne We haue so much corruption in our selues that we néede no further prouoking vnto wickednesse Now to Maister Hardings purpose thus much we saye that God permitteth synne and with longe patience doth suffer the vessels of wrath prepared to destruction but yet this permission we say doth appertayne vnto the will of God For he doth not suffer it eyther inforced or against his will neither yet doth he so suffer it that he doth nothing him selfe For he ruleth and gouerneth euen their iniquity He suffereth it not to rage at will but guideth it either to the punishment of the wicked as he oft punished the Israelites with the wickednes of straunge Princes or to the triall of his elect as it is well acknowledged of the prophet Dauid saying of Shimei he curseth euen bicause the Lord hath bid him curse Dauid yet God made not the malice of Shimeis mynde Likewyse where it is sayde of the destruction of Ierusalem that God brought vpon them the king of the Chaldeans God did not ingraffe in Nabuchadoneyzar his great cruelty but being bred in his own mind he brought it vpon whom it pleased him Therfore Christ saith all the heares of our head are numbred and with out Gods appointment ther shal not one of them perish This therefore is our doctrine God is no cause of wickednesse but men cannot apply their owne wickednesse but where it pleaseth God neither do they exercise their wickednes but when and how far his grace doth leaue them For plainer declaration of this we may compare the grace of God and the sunne If the sunne be ouer
priest will And where their Masse booke biddeth that the priest breake the host in thrée péeces and holde two péeces in his left hand and one in his right the misterie of that deuice is this that one péece I trowe that in the right hande be for them in heauen an other for the liuing the thirde for them in purgatory I graunt this is but a foolishe deuice to fancie any sacrifice for those in heauen yet so it is so they teach Whether maister Harding say Masse as he is commaunded or no that no man I trow knoweth but himselfe his breach of order may be no good proufe of an vntruth The B. of Saris. His second reason is this it is a feast therefore it is common and so he salueth one errour with another Harding The .9 vntruth It is no errour to say it is a feast Dering Maister Hardings worde is no very good warrant therefore it shall not be amisse to sée his reason As a dinner may be a good dinner sayth the Reioinder though the gestes doe not come so this may be a feast though it be not eaten Note good people this is an argument a simili and that you should note it the better Maister Harding hath caused it to be printed in the margine This argument by lyke is verye plausible among them With such an other did mayster Bonner once proue transubstanciation but bicause whatsoeuer that wise man speaketh is not streight way reason I would gladly know of maister Harding this one thing whether that be a good dinner when neyther the gestes come nor yet any good meate is prepared All men knowe that such a banket they make of their Masse There is nothing at all prepaâ—ed but for the priest alone These weake vntruthes would haue well borne some stronger reason The B. of Saris. What if his wil be to work sorcery as it is reported of pope Hildibrand Harding The .10 vntruth This is reported by no true vvryter The B. of Saris. Or what if his will be to poyson some bodye as Henrie the Emperor was poysoned in the Communion bread Pope Victor in the Chalice Harding The .11 and .12 vntruth They dyed othervvise Dering Well may this Reioinder of M. Hardings be called a booke of distinctions this great number of vntruthes .225 wranglings For neyther without a distinction can he defende one iote of his double Religion nor without wrangling argue one vntruth It is reported sayth mayster Iuell of Pope Hildibrand that he was a sorcerer of Henry the Emperour and Pope Victor â—hat they were poisoned in the CoÌ„munion Here commeth our late vntruth maker of Louein M. D. Har. where as nothing is affirmed in his maner of multiplicatioÌ„ he saith there are thrée vntruthes The first of Hildibrand the seconde of Henry the thirde of Victor Concerning the truth of these histories pardon me good reader though I dare say nothing I can not mend that which M. Iuell hath written Reade the defence of the Apologie God for his mercy sake preserue that good Bishop to the accomplishing of many other such labours As touching our present purpose No man I trow but Maister Harding would haue noted any vntruth Maister Iuell doth onely say these histories are reported and so they be as thou thy selfe must néedes confesse What if they be false yet it is the errour of the historie no vntruth in mayster Iuell What if no man defendeth Papistrie but enimies of Gods worde and true religion yet we may say that Papistrie is defended We may say of Gargantua that it is reported Of the Legend of lyes that they are written Of Basils priuate Masse that Amphilochius telleth it and yet is there no controuersie but these are all lyes Then what if it were not y e Pope Gregory were a coniurer yet it is reported yea and thou thy selfe good Christian reader vpon the sight of mayster Iuels booke shall confesse it was so But here I must require of thée a little to consider the vnegall dealing of these english Louanists Maister Harding in his aunswere speaking of Abdias sayth that he sawe Christ in the flesh that bicause it is altogither false maister Iuell noteth it for one vntruth Now commeth maister Stapleton and for the returne of this vntruth he sayth If it be vntrue the fault is in the author that so affirmeth and not in maister Harding And yet maister Harding speaketh this affirmatiuely as though he would auouch it And shall lying Abdias be a sufficient ground for maister Harding to say this is true And shall not so many good wryters be a warrant for maister Iuell to say this is reported Sure maister Hardings owne friends must nedes wish that eyther this had béene vnquoted by himselfe or that other vndefended by maister Stapleton The B. of Saris. Or what if his will be to worke fayned miracles as Lira sayth many are wrought in the open Church to mocke the people Harding The .13 vntruth Lira sayth it not The .14 vntruth He saith not to mocke the people Dering We had euen now thrée vntruthes in one sentence if these were to many in token of some moderation here is one abated and yet such successe hath this vntruthmaker in his collections that euen these two can not stande with his honestie This is maister Iuels allegation Lira sayth many miracles are wrought in the open Church to mocke the people Of these wordes thus doeth Maister Harding gather two vntruthes The first Lira sayth it not The second he sayth not to mocke the people Here would I faine learne of Maister Harding in the first vntruth Lira sayth it not what he meaneth by the worde â–ª it if he doe meane the whole sentence why doth he repeate this peece to mocke the people and so maketh an other vntruth if he meane Lira hath all but this why doth he note the residue for an vntruth If he meane that Lira neuer sayth this nor the other part why doth he not marke mo vntruthes The first as it is one generall Lira sayth it not The other deducted perticularly out of euery word as he saith not there are many He sayth not there are many miracles he saith not they are wrought he sayth not in the open church He saith not to mock so this last he saith not to mock the people This would well haue furthered M. H. number to haue had .vii. in stéed of two sure the sentence hath no priuiledge but that in euery part it may as wel be broken off as in this one But sith it is so M. H. durst not note to many let vs examine these two how good ground they stand on â–ª Lira saith Maister Harding sayth it not He sayth not to mocke the people In these vntruthes my labour shall not be necessary Lira himselfe must be mayster Iuels discharge Reade then the place thus he wryteth Similiter sit in ecclesia maxima deceptio populi in miraculis fictis
them shall séeme but wrangling and this new counterfeit Abdias shall be reiected as a teller of dreames and a lying wryter And for our great comfort god will bring to passe that when it shall be knowne to the indifferent reader that Papistrie can not stand without such shamelesse doctors they shall begin to learne that it is a shamelesse doctrine The B. of Saris. Beholde what thinges they be that be written of Maximilla wife to Aegis that she being once christened would no more yeelde dutie to hir husbande but set Euclia hir mayde in hir owne place and other like fables All these and such like tales thus disalowed by S. Augustine are reported by Maister Hardings Abdias in great sooth Harding The .31 vntruth These tales be not reported by Abdias Dering Now is maister Harding come as he sayth to a great and impudent lye and such a one as by no meanes can be excused let the booke saith he be iudge I doe M. Iuell great wrong to write in his cause with so little diligence But for this cause I doe it which I trust I shall well performe that the vnlearned should not be deceiued For the learned be they not of wil blinded Maister Hardings bookes can not hurt them he hath made so vnequal a match Thou séest good reader for the iustifiing of this vntruth whereat are made so great exclamations one should read ouer all Abdias which labor I lothed so as if Amaras porrecto iugulo c. as Horace writeth I should haue stretched â—ut my necke and listened after bitter histories yet when there was no remedie I tooke the booke and in diuerse places read so much I think as amounteth to one whole leafe or more and of that little reading as I can I answere There is named in Augustine one Maximilla such one is named in Abdias she was wife to Aegetes or Aegeas so was Abdias his Maximilla she had a mayd named Iphidamia or Iphidama so sayth Abdias of his Maximilla and hir handmayd Iphidamia sayth Saint Augustine went to go heare S. Andrevv and so did the handmayde in Abdias and of all this I say as M. Harding sayth let the bookes be iudge Nowe reader I must craue thine indifferent iudgement sée whether Augustine and Abdias meane one Maximilla If they do remeÌ„ber Augustine sayth they be impudent lyes and Abdias doth tell them in great sooth But sayth Maister Harding Abdias and August do not write a like of Maximilla Sure it is the more like Abdias is a lier But what if we say Abdias did write whatsoeuer Saint Augustine hath Barre maister Harding of his gesses and he can not confute it Iohn Faber a great fabler of maister Hardings side sayth that this Abdias when he was founde was all reueled and without any fashion full of faultes so that one could neyther read him by vnderstanding nor vnderstand him by reading Then no maruaile if some part of it be perished and the booke be not come wholy vnto our handes though Abdias say not euery whit that is in Augustine When maister Harding can bring any péece of likelihoode how this agréement may be betwéene them and yet they meane not both one then let this go for an vntruth In the meane season consider whereto this shamelesse impudent and notorious lye is fallen whereof he hath made such tragedies and what the other vntruthes be when so great account was made of this This is it that I saide before maister Harding was little beholding vnto Abdias First he could not pleasure him for his small authoritie now he hath shamed him with this vnshamefast defence The B. of Saris. Saint Augustine seemeth in diuerse places to haue giuen his iudgement of this booke Hardyng The .32 vntruth Saint Augustine meaneth not of Abdias Dering Maister Harding hath good lyking in his owne doing or this vntruth should not haue bene noted twise For the matter there is inough saide in the former vntruth the argument of the thing doth witnesse of Augustines meaning The. B. of Saris. The like iudgement hereof is giuen by Gelasius Harding The .33 vntruth Gelasius meaneth not of Abdias Dering Maister Harding is so iealous ouer his Abdias that in no case he will let him be spoken off The booke be like is so full of lyes that he is sure no man can speake any good of it But how so euer he be affectioned we must thinke of authors no otherwise then we finde them He is not yet Pope and therefore may erre his word is no good witnesse of an other mans meaning Gelasius whome so euer he meaneth certaine it is he may meane Abdias for the worthinesse of the booke And whereas maister Harding for some proufe of his side sayth that he coÌ„demneth certain actes of Martyrs which are thought to be written by infidels Gelasius hath not one such worde But where as maister Harding saith further for the discharge of Abdias that Gelasius speaketh of one Quiricus and Iulita his mother this is a mocking of his reader without all regard of honestie First what kindred was betwéene these two it skilleth not much but Iulita may as well be his daughter as his mother for any thing that Gelasius sayth But let the kindred go maister Hardings reason hangeth thus Gelasius reiecting one hundreth bookes among other nameth the passioÌ„ of Quiricus ergo he reiecteth not Abdias and this is all the reason on which he groundeth this vntruth reade his Reioinder Nowe way on the other side what cause Maister Iuell hath to thinke Gelasius ment Abdias and vpon conference of eyther reason this vntruth shall be very soone answered The second booke that he condemneth is the actes of saint Andrew Abdias doth write the actes of S. Andrew The third is the actes of Philip Abdias wryteth y e actes of Philip. The fourth is the actes of Peter Abdias wryteth the actes of Peter The fift is the actes of Thomas Abdias wryteth the actes of Thomas Beside this he reiecteth the doings of Maximilla and Abdias speaketh of Maximilla Now let the indifferent reader iudge whether Gelasius meaneth of Addias or whether maister Hardings worde and misshapen argument may couÌ„teruaile all these coniectures The B of Saris. Thus it may be supposed by Saint Augustine and Gelasius that this booke was written by heritikes Harding The 34. vntruth A burthen of vntruthes Dering If this be a burthen of vntruthes no doubt the substaunce of them is very little For take away the .32 vntruth that Augustine meaneth not Abdias and the .33 vntruth that Gelasius meaneth not Abdias and except Eubulus come that saw Christ helpe Basil to Masse all this burthen of vntruthes is like to be vndone As touching the vntruthes there is inough saide already Whether they ment of Abdias it appeareth that maister Harding is to blind a iudge to gesse so boldly the contrary Here I must put thée once againe in minde of the numbring of these vntruthes First Saint
Augustine speaketh not of Saint Mathew the .2 nor of Saint Andrew the .3 nor of Abdias his Maximilla the .4 nor of Abdias the .5 nor Gelasius speaketh of Abdias the .6 nor they two speak of Abdias Thus the whole being ioyned is but one true proposition yet out of it after his maner of cutting maister Harding hath carued .6 lies And thus much of lying Abdias The B. of Saris. Martial was so defaced in many places that it could not be reade Harding The .35 vntruth It could be read else hovv coulde it be printed Dering By gesse Why should not the printer haue as much liberty in printing this little olde booke as maister Harding vseth for proufe of his whole religion The Printer himselfe sayth prae nimia vetustate vix legi potuerunt for estreame age they could scarce be read Nowe where as maister Harding doth aske how then could they be printed I aske of him how Abdias was printed For of him his sorbonist Doctor wryteth he could neyther be read nor vnderstand An other might much better haue moued this doubt then maister Harding He is not now to learne what gesses may doe But howe soeuer he was printed sure this vntruth was not worth noting The B. of Saris. It is iudged by Iohn Colet and other graue men that Dionysius can not be that Areopagita Saint Paules disciple which is mencioned in the Actes Harding The .36 vntruth It is not iudged so by Iohn Colet The .37 vntruth They are no graue men that so iudge Dering These vntruthes can not be good that are made so fast nor yet so many as the maker would haue them when one is told so many tymes If this were vntrue that maister Iuell writeth yet were it not two vntruthes but one But bicause there is no remedie we will take them euen as they fall out As touching the former of these two it néedeth no aunswere Maister Harding doth not denie it but that Iohn Colet hath both spoken it and preached it then what skilleth it whether it be written his preaching is a witnes of his opinion though maister Harding say nay For this other vntruth that such other as deny this Dionysius to be the true Areopagita are no graue men he is sure no graue man that hath noted it I may aunswere this with the wordes of Saint Paule horum laus non ex hominibus sed ex deo these mens prayses are not of men but of God Maister Harding should not for his modesty sake haue noted it for an vntruth to call the godly fathers of our age graue men His belligods Popes Cardnals Friers Monkes Priestes others of that kenâ—ll haue not so much laboured in searching out the truth in fiue hundred yeares as these other haue done in fiftie But God hath giuen the increase his name be praysed for euer As touching this Dionysius whether we haue his workes or no it is a thing soone iudged How vnlike is it that the conuersion of Dionysius should be mencioned by Saint Luke in the actes of the Apostles yet he him selfe would not mencion it once in al his workes or if this might be yet what may we thinke of that that in all his booke he doth neuer so much as once name Paule May it yet be doubted whether he be that Dionysius which Paule conuerted Besides this S. Ierom making purposely a rehearsall of all ecclesiasticall wryters speaketh not one worde of this Dionysius Other auncient fathers doe neuer alleage him his owne bookes are so strauÌ„ge fansies of many secrete misteries that sure it is he is not the true Areopagita The. B. of Saris. Saint Iames Liturgie hath an especiall prayer for them that liue in Monasteries and yet it was â—erie rare to haue Monasteries built in all Saint Iames time Harding The .38 vntruth There is no mention of such Monasteries as we commonly meane when we speake of Monasteries Dering As be for Monasteries as Monasteries are to speake of the things themselues as they are in déede so to say of Monasteries as they be considered in this meaning of Monasteries so Monasteries and so forth a man should go farre that shoulde follow Maister Hardings wrangling The B. of Saris. Chrysostomes Liturgie prayeth for Pope Nicolas by these wordes Nicolai sanctiss vniuersalis Papae longa sint teÌ„pora We pray God sende Nicolas that most holy and vniuersall Pope a long time to liue But Pope Nicolas the first of that name was the seconde Pope after dame Ione the woman Pope Harding The .39 vntruth He prayth not for Pope Nicolas of Rome The .40 vntr There was no such woman pope Dering Nowe Maister Harding after he hath giuen so many offers and maketh neuer a wound he directeth his engines quite contrarie and assayeth if that he can giue the Pope a blowe Pope Nicolas sayth Chrysostome that most sacred and vniuersall Pope That is no good proufe sayth Maister Harding that he meaneth the bishop of Rome Here is a full subscription to the .4 article The authorities alleaged for the Popes supremacie are quite ouerthrowne to be called vniuersall bishop is no proufe of his supremacie Had Maister Harding wel considered it this vntruth had bene quoted some other where but doubting that this be not aunswere good ynough he letteth it go and graunting it to be sayde of Pope Nicolas therevpon he asketh this question If Chrysostome might not pray for Pope Nicolas how is the death of Moyses described in the bookes of the lawe There is no man sayth he so hardie to denie that Moyses wrote these bookes Be not afrayd good reader of these big words nor of M â–ª Har. daring All this is soone aunswered Either Eleazar or Iosue wroâ—e the .34 Chap. of Deuter. And they might well write of Moyses his death Or if Moyses wrote it he knew it by reuelation For so he himselfe wryteth The lorde hath saide vnto mée thou shalt not go ouer this Iordane Sure of a doctor of diuinitie this was a very simple question If he can shewe any such reuelation that Chrysostome haâ— of Pope Nicolas then let this be Chrysostomes Masse The .40 vntruth is concerning pope Ione who neuer did the sea of Rome more dishonesty then she hath stoode maister Harding in good stéed For both she helpeth out his Reioinder with vntruthes and maketh a great péece of his confutation of the Apologie But saith maister Harding there was no such woman Pope What skilleth it to this present matter whether there were such a Pope or no. A filthie Strumpet is good ynough for such a whoorish kingdome If there were such a one Pope Nicolas was seconde after hir Whether there were or no my profes are néedelesse my lord of Sarisburie hath resolued vs in that behalfe The B. of Saris. Now it were much for me to say that Chrysostome prayed for men by name 700. yeares before they were borne Harding The .41 vntruth I say
not so Dering This is a proper vntruth Now by lyke Mayster Harding is non plus The B. of Saris. Thou seest Christian reader what doctours here be brought as maister Harding sayth to ground thy fayth and saluation vpon Harding The .42 vntruth I say not so Dering If Maister Iuell shoulde so misreport maister Hardings saying as he himselfe for his vntruthes sake doth commonly vse then had he good cause to crie out both of misconstruing and corruptions for he will say and vnsay and all with one breath for to séeke aduauntage Thus he sayth expressely he hath brought these authorities for y e confirmation of thy fayth And againe he hath brought these authorities for the stay of all christian mens beléefe Sée his booke thou shalt sée the words Thē why saith he not y t he bringeth these authorities to groūd thy saluation on or how could he without blushing note this vntruth There is no other difference in the sayings saue where Maister Iuell reporteth it to ground thy faith Maister Harding hath to stay and confirme thy fayth If here be any difference alway wrangling excepted let this be an vntruth And yet were there any Maister Harding speaketh plaine ynough in the confutation of the Apologie Thus he saith there Are not these trustie men to whome you maye commit the charge of your soules for your fayth and saluation These wordes I trow are plaine ynough to proue this no vntruth The. B. of Saris. It is the very expresse order of the Communion Harding The .43 vntruth It is not so Dering This vntruth maister Harding hath not in the text but hath wrested it out of the margine and bicause he thinketh that for the base matter it would be little regarded to make vs the more attentiue he beginneth with this admiration But what meaneth Maister Iuell c. But to quite Maister Hardings wonder I aske of him againe what meaneth he thus abruptly to rush into maister Stapletons possessions He hath taken vpon him to returne those vntruthes and whye doth maister Harding meddle where he hath no thank There be already a great many past which he hath not touched and why doth he out of season thus meddle with this If he thinke maister Stapleton hath returned it nothing cunningly I doe easily graunt that he is in déede a naughtie workeman if he thinke by his labour it shall appeare more beautifull I must néedes graunt his turning is much better but yet the matter it selfe is neuer a whit the truer And for as much as the thing must trie it selfe let vs somewhat better examine it Maister Harding sayth in the .5 diuision of his first booke that Ciril hath expounded the Masse vsed in Ierusalem Maister Iuell noteth this for the .12 vntruth saying that Ciril expounded the communion and not the Masse Maister Harding returneth this vntruth againe saying it was the Masse and not the Communion I might with as great facility denie this again and say it were the Communion and not the Masse But bycause my testimonie were in this not of weight I am content to be furthered with the witnesse of maister Stapleton Hée sayth plainely that maister Harding brought not this for proufe of the question and that it maketh nothing for priuate Masse But here Maister Harding saith that it was a Masse Therefore this vntruth gathered by maister Harding is answered thus by maister Stapleton that it is not so and tyll they agrée better a longer discourse of that place of Ciril is neyther profitable nor necessarie The B. of Saris. What if all these doctors testifie against maister Hardings Masse Harding The .44 vntruth They testifie not one vvorde against it Dering Maister Iuell alleageth Iames his Liturgie Abdias Iustinus Dionysius Basil Chrysostome and Ignatius reade the Replie fol. ii of all these saith maister Harding they be M. Iuels buts and therefore he will skip them ouer and not answere a worde neither rime nor reason What shamelesse demeanor is this in men that professe to séeke the truth if wée would doe the like howe soone woulde this Reioinder be aunswered It is an easie matter if this be ynough M. Harding must séeke better stuffe this will not serue Although in déede it be true that this Reioinder is all false and vngodly stuffe yet séeing christian people are so euill disposed the falsehoode of this stuffing must be in some part disclosed Howe much then should this discredit maister Hardings religion against so expresse authoritie to make so slender aunswere The B. of Saris. Hippolytus was lately set abroade in print about seuen yeares past before neuer acquainted in the worlde Harding The .45 vntruth He was well knowne before Dering That man is well knowen of whom most men haue heard or with whome many be acquainted Now howe proueth M. Harding this Hippolytus is well knowne Saint Ierom saith he named him Surely this is a very small acquaintaunce to be named but of one man in all the worlde Yet not thys bastard Hippolytus but that other bishop and martyr is named of Saint Ierom. Such vntruthes haue great sauor of enuie or of folly or of both Sith maister Iuell sayth that Hippolytus was neuer acquainted in the worlde and Maister Harding doth shew but only that Saint Ierom did name him This vntruth if truth were wel regarded should surely haue bene spared Howe be it I graunt not onely Ierom named Hippolitus but other many Eusebius speaketh of him so doth Theodoretus and alleageth diuers sayings out of hys bookes Gelasius Epiphanius and Niciphorus also haue named him and yet all these had but small acquaintance with him Eusebius and Ierom and Theodorete knewe not where he was bishop Gelasius sayth he was a bishop in Arabia Nicephorus saith he was bishop of Ostia a hauen towne in Italy Ierom sayth Origene was stirred vp by emulation of Hippolitus yet it appeareth by sundrie recordes that Origene was made bishop of Alexandria .x. yeares before Hippolytus did write By this it appeareth that y e true Hippolytus was not long since well knowne in the world so that were this booke good yet maister Iuell sayd true But how good it is and how vnworthy the name of Hippolytus read the Replie and thou shalt well perceyue Beside this the booke by M. Harding alleged entituled de cōsummatione mundi is not once mencioned neither by Ierome nor Eusebius nor Theodorete where they make especial menciō of Hippolytus bookes then I trow we may say truely this is no vntruth The B. of Saris. He beginneth the first sentence of his booke with enim Harding The .46 vntruth He beginneth otherwise Dering Here Maister Harding maketh himselfe merie with wondring at Gréeke readers and scholemaisters musing howe they could haue béene so ignorant But may it please maister Albutius that so faine would be a Grecian to remember the Gréeke saying 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to laugh out of season is a great miserie Had this defence
christo apostoli ab ipsis eorū acciperint successores We do surely beleue that that forme of wordes which are in our Canon the Apostles receyued of Christ and there successors of them If this sentence might preuaile then the case of consecration had ben cléere But it is well if the Popes friendes will not beleue him For my part I meane not to purchase him any credit Now resteth the .57 vntruth to examine whether Scotus and Innocentius doe say that benedixit he blessed worketh consecration Maister Harding standeth stiffely in it and doth aduenture his credite that they say it not and being to much inflamed against Maister Iuell he writeth with a good countenance that of al the men that euer wrote he had least cause to bring Scotus for his purpose and that he is very rashe in so doing And if thou wilt beleue him for a cleare iustifying of this vntruth he sayth that Scotus and Innocentius neuer said that benedixit worketh consecration Surely good Reader these desperate assertions might well make thée thinke that thy bishop had deceyued thée But be not yet to hastie of beliefe be simple as the done but be wise as the serpent yea euē as the Romish serpent that hath so well prouided for his yong ones His Prelates may not be accused without .72 witnesses Let not thou a good bishop be discredited with one slaūderous tongue His priestes may not be controlled of any lay man be he neuer so religious Let not thou Gods minister be blamed of an Apostata yea and as though they were not yet prouided for well ynough Pope Euaristus ordeyned that the people should not accuse them at all Yea and that whole Laterane councell vpon good warrant of that saying of S. Paule the seruant standeth or falleth vnto his lord by authoritie of that sacred assemblie they exempt them from such temporall iurisdiction Then let vs be somewhat ware in defence of a Godly Bishop that maister Hardings bolde reprehensions may not proue him faultie Scotus and Innocentius saith Maister Iuell doe say that benedixit worketh consecration That is a false lye sayth M. Harding Then vppon good tryall let the truth appeare and let vs here what the Authors themselues say Scotus in déede sayth thus verba consecrationis sunt quatuor hoc est corpus meum There are 4. wordes of consecration this is my bodye If Scotus had said no more then maister Harding had alleaged all But it followeth a little after sed haec verba hoc est corpus meum prolata sine praecedentibus non significant hoc absolute But these words pronounced without the other wordes going before do not absolutely signifie this that consecration is done Loe Scotus sayth not as maister Harding reporteth him that consecration is wrought by these foure but saith he there is no consecration if the wordes afore which are the blessing be left out And now to auoyde all vaine cauilling about these words G. Biel sayth speaking of the same matter Quid si verba praecedentia omitterentur Respōdetur licet hic Scotus sit alterius opinionis tamen hoc communiter tenent doctores quòd haec quatuor sola sufficiunt ad effectum cōsecrationis What if the words going afore be omitted it is aunswered though Scotus be here of an other opinion yet the common sentence of doctors is these foure are sufficient Here besides the manifest words of Scotus G. Biel is also a witnesse that as maister Iuell sayth this is the common opinion but Scotus thinketh that the wordes going before are necessarye If then Scotus owne wordes and G. Biel witnesse are better proufe of Scotus meaning than Maister Hardings imagination it is true that the consecration is wrought by the whole blessing And this other saying before alleaged by M. Harding must be thus qualified that in that place he saith those are the especiall words Thus is Scotus saying auouched by maister Harding disalowed by his owne plaine words and by the testimonie of Biel. Concerning Innocentius whether he thought consecration was wrought by benedixit he blessed if Maister Harding had regarded his owne credite he would not haue denied it The whole troupe of his doctours doe so alleage his opinion First Scotus saith Sacerdos profert illa verba quasi materialiter quia recitat ea sicut a Christo dicta vt patet per rationem praecedentē in Canone Christus autem quādo illa dixit non transubstantiauit panem in corpus quod probatur ex verbis illius Canonis quia ibi praemittitur benedixit Vnde dicetur quòd per illam benedictionem praecedentem consecrauit non per ista verba hoc est corpus meum Cui concordat Innocentius Concerning the thirde article it is saide that the priest speaketh those wordes as the matter of consecration bicause he recyteth them euen as they were spoken of Christ as it appeareth by that which goeth before in the Canon But Christ when he saide those wordes did not transubstantiate the breade into his body as lykewise is proued by the Canon For there it is sayde before he blessed whereof it is sayde that by that blessing he did consecrate not by those other words this is my body and of this opinion is Innocentius in his booke of the office of the Masse .3 part the .6 Chapt. and the .14 Here hast thou Innocentius auouched and his opinion confirmed by Scotus Now for the thirde point of this vntruth Where Maister Harding saith if Maister Iuell had any mo he would haue named them May it please him to reade Alexander de Ales Okam Gotfrey Albertus Biel Marcilius diuers other of his owne doctors Either he must accuse them all as lyers or there are other of this opinion Thus we sée these great exclamations whereto they fall that in one title he cannot iustifie one vntruth But whether maister Iuell had mo to alleage or no reade his defence of the Apologie thou shalt sée fo 208. The B. of Saris. Cardinall Bessarion Bishop of Tusculum writeth thus Harding The .58 vntruth He vvriteth not so Dering If shamelesse lying were punished in Loueine then no doubt maister Harding would be more ware what he wrote Now as may be thought impunity haue made him confident Let the booke be iudge of this vntruth The B. of Saris. How be it by what soeuer wordes consecration is made it standeth no◠in abolishing of natures as maister Harding teacheth Harding The .59 vntruth I teach not so Dering Certainly good reader this vntruth is very straunge M. Harding is a great mainteiner of transubstantiation in al his doing yet here to get one vntruth he is content to forsake it I doe not teach sayth he that consecration consisteth in the chaunging of natures If it be so then by consecration the nature of bread doth not chaunge into the nature of christs flesh to this I gladly yéelde Would God maister Iuell said here vntruely The
part of Christes institution Harding The .70 vntruth This is not my argument Dering Here Maister Harding and his friend Stapleton doe not well accorde For Maister Harding skippeth one vntruth concerning the number of communicants Replie fo 20. diuis 3. which maister Stapleton maketh the .22 vntruth And least we should thinke it little worth he maketh the same againe the .23 vntruth and for a full conclusion shutteth also the .24 vntruth in it Yea and though it stand here for .3 vntruthes yet as if al they were not sufficient he made it once afore the .19 vntruth So much maister Stapleton maketh of one vntruth which maister Harding accounteth not worth numbring But the matter is not great he loseth nothing here that he will not finde in an other place As touching this vntruth these are M. Hardings verie wordes Concerning the number of communicants in one place that they iangle so much of it is no part of Christes institution For Christ ordeined the sacrament after consecration c. Nowe turne these wordes in forme of argument and they stand euen as maister Iuel placeth them Christ did ordeine the sacrament after consecration c. ergo the number of communicants is no part of Christes institution If these be Maister Hardings owne wordes as sée the booke and thou thy selfe shalt iudge thou canst not be so simple but thou must néedes sée this argument is no worse than himselfe hath made it But bicause in this place he also fashioneth one and in great confidence of his owne cunning writeth in the Margent of his booke an argument proponed to M. Iuell to be considered I will doe him no wrong in chaunging his woords but for that loue which I haue to M. Iuels profession in his behalfe I will as I can consider of it after his owne making But first I must aduertise thée before he setteth vp his mishapen building he layeth the foundation of an ill fauored stomacke and saith by M. Iuel that it is easie for a scoffer to scoffe at arguments framed of his owne scoffing head And so it is easie for an euill speaker in defence of his wicked Doctrine to reporte vnchristianly of Gods minister where suche vnquiet passions do leade away vnderstanding It may be he may finde fauorers but where the God of peace hath engraffed more moderation truthe shall not be preiudiced with suche vntrue behauior Muche other frothe ensueth in great plentie before we come to the proposed reason euen as a rotten wound defileth many clothes that are about it but let it be troden out with silence that cannot be remembred without muche loth somnesse At the last he commeth to his argument after his owne graue considerations thus it is fourmed What so euer is beside Consecration Oblation and Participation is beside Christes institution The number of Communicants in one place is beside these thrée Ergo the number in one place is no parte of Christes institution Of this argument M. Harding boasteth much and in any case will haue M. Iuel yelde vnto the Conclusion But softe M. Harding extorcion is no conclusion If you will enforce a graunt whether it be made or no you can by that be neuer the neare your purpose Therefore for as muche as you haue set forthe your argument as you say to be considered you séeme very vnconstant so soone againe to claime the concâ—usion But you sâ—y if we wil not yelde vnto the reason we must denie the Minor or second proposition True it is the Minor is false but we are not yet come at it The Maior that you thinke so sure is made of false and vnlawfull stuffing as by this consideration that you require shall well appeare The proposition is this What so euer is beside Consecration Oblation and Participation is beside Christes institution first this is false and teacheth wicked doctrine For preaching out of the Lords death vntill he come is a parte of Christes institution And our sauiour biddeth do this in the remembraunce of me that is with due celebration of all my benefits bestowed vpon mankind which must then be preached vnto the people And if it be not so done then Christes institution notw tstanding M. Hardings argument is flatly broken Nowe as this preaching out the Lords death is of Christes institution and yet not rehersed in this first proposition wherby this prosition is shewed false so those other things which are rehersed in it as M. Harding meaneth them are none of them of Christes institution By coÌ„secration he meaneth the pronouÌ„cing of these words this is my body which must be done as y e Masse boke straightly chargeth bothe secretely and with one breath By oblation he meaneth Christes reall body to be offred vp vnto the father By Participation he meaneth that the priest alone may take it at the Altare and no one of these is of Christes institution Nay they all are contrary vnto it So that this proposition wheron he groundeth his argumeÌ„t wanteth somewhat and therefore is not true that which it hath is altogether corrupt and therefore it containeth muche pernicious doctrine First as touching Consecration S. Augustine saith as is alleaged in the .56 vntruth y â— it is wrought verbo fidei by the worde of faith which we preache So saithe Iustinus martir that it is sanctified per verbum precationis gratiarum actionis by the word of prayer and thankes giuing Irenaeus saith quando mixtus calix fractus panis percipit verbum Dei fit Eucharistia corporis sanguinis Christi when the cuppe mingled with wine and water and the bread being broken hath the preaching of the woord of God ioyned vnto it then it is the Eucharist and this was the only Consecration .200 yeres after Christ neither any where any other mentioned except in M. Hardings Decretal Epistles which neither are of credite nor yet teach good religion This same maner of Consecration is taught vs by Cyprian Dyonisius Alexandrinus Ambrose Augustine and suche other as liued within the first .600 yeares after Christ. Although I graunt as appeareth by diuers recordes many solemnities of the Masse were farre spread through superstition yet this exacte kinde of close Consecration is muche yonger This Oblation likewise as it was then vnknowne so now it is of all Christians to be detested that a mortall man should offer vp the immortall God as I haue already shewed in the Epistle For Participation bicause maister Harding can not proue his Priuate Masse within the sixe hundreth yeares and the woord doeth enforce that it is no Participation except there be a number to take their partes I thinke it appeareth sufficiently that in a Popishe Masse they haue no manner Participation or Communion so we sée this Maior is all together false before we come at the Minor Now if we will further examine the Minor we shall finde it false also altogither without salte or sauor for thus it is in effecte
vntruthe Then thus hang these vntruthes If this last be true that the Gréeke Church dothe consecrate with prayers the thirde is true that it intendeth not Transubstantiation And the second is true that it hath no suche intent as the Church of Rome hath and the first is true that these churches are not resolued in this intent Now consider I beséeche thée good Reader what manner of vntruthes these are that notwithstanding their great number are yet so smal in value that if but one be proued true all .iiij. must be graūted Sure thou must néedes confesse that M. Harding who in his Epistle would so faine shoote at hobs and rouers yet at this marke he hath had so good deliuery that he hathe farre ouershot him selfe and his whole commendation is no more worthe than that praise in Horace of a babling Poete qui variare potest rem prodigialiter vnam which cā turne a true sentence into a great many lies For proofe of this last vntruthe on which the other hang we haue the plaine wordes of the Councel of Florence alleaged by M. Iuel where it is shewed that in the Gréekes mynisterie after the words of Christ pronounced this is my body they make this prayer fac panem hunc honorabile corpus Christi tui c. make this breade the honourable body of thy Christ. By this prayer it is manifest that these wordes this is my body being pronounced before did not worke Transubstantiation But bicause it hath pleased M. Harding in to great a zeale of his number to score vp vntruthes thus vnwisely least his friends should thinke the matter vnsufficiently answered we wil say somwhat of them in order euen as M. Harding noteth them and I doubt not but to the indifferent reader they shall one of them sufficiently confute an other First saith M. Harding the Church is resolued on the Priests entent But that is very false For the Gréeke Church and the Church of Rome haue not one intēt The Greke Church as is said doth consecrate with prayers The Church of Rome with hoc est enim corpus meum The Gréeke Church maketh more accompte of the worthy receiuing than of Consecration The Churche of Rome thinketh we ought to haue more regarde of Consecration than of the worthy receiuing I leaue out other differences which are almost infinite This is inough to proue our purpose Secondarily saithe M. Harding the Church of Rome entendeth not Transubstantiation What he entended in this vntruthe I know not For my parte wold God M. Iuel said héere vntrue and that that Romish Church would leaue of that presumptuous entent Thirdly saith M. Harding the Gréeke Church meaneth transubstantiation And this is very straunge for a learned man to speake suche repugnances First y t the church of Rome intendeth not transubstantiation Againe that the Gréeke Church doth intend transubstantiation And thirdly y t they two intende one thing when M. Harding with all his wrangling can make these vntruthes agrée sure we wil subscribe Now resteth a little to be considered of the Councel of Florence whether it may appeare by it that the Churche of the Grecians acknowledge no transubstantiation Thus it stoode When the Latines in that assembly required that they might entreate of transubstantiation The Grekes made answere sine totius orientalis ecclesiae authoritate quaestionem aliam tractare non possimus without the consent of all the East Church we can meddle with no other question c. Héere be the Reader neuer so simple he must thinke thus muche If this article of transubstantiation were so Catholike as they will make vs beleue how commeth it to be called so ofte in controuersie in generall Councell And againe if the Grecians did accompte it as Catholike and were resolued in it what meant they that they would not subscribe to so highe a point of Christian religion sure this was their meaning they knew this transubstantiation was but a Romish deuise and therefore they would ▪ not yelde vnto it And thus muche of these hasty vntruthes The B. of Saris. The .13 Diuision But if Cyril neuer spake word of the Masse how is he heere brought in to proue the Masse Harding The .101 vntruthe Cyril is not brought to proue the Masse Dering But he should proue priuate Masse or else what maketh he héere For of that the question is moued And this is a very hard case that M. Harding must lose his vntruthe or else confesse he speaketh not to the purpose The B. of Saris. Neither may we thinke that Christes body must grossely and bodily be receiued into our bodies Harding The .102 vntruthe We must beleue it Dering As maister Harding hath forsaken Gods Religion and is fallen againe to Poperie so it séemeth also he hath forsaken his learning and beginneth to make vntruthes with his follie This is one of the chiefest articles for which we haue forsaken their vnfaithfull Churche As ofte as we repeate this we conclude the thing which lieth in controuersie betwene vs. This is our professed opinion and vpon the trial of it by good and sufficient aucthoritie if it be proued against vs Maister Iuel is ready to subscribe Then what meaneth maister Harding Or what maner of vntruthe is this Or who can accompte it for true and plaine dealing when vpon good ground we shewe forthe our opinion and he scoreth vp the question for an vntruthe He shal doe well to reproue it before he make anymoe vntruthes of this Reade the .104 vntruthe The B. of Saris. S. Cyprian saith it is meate not for the belly but for the minde Harding The .103 vntruthe S. Cyprian saith not so Dering If M. Harding and his Popishe felowes had falsified the Doctors no otherwise than M. Iuel héere falsifieth S. Cyprian then in a little chaunge of words we should haue had their meaning faithfully deliuered vnto vs and bastard bokes such as they knew not had neuer bene ascribed vnto them But thanks be to God who hath now lightned vs least suche vngodly writings vnder godly names should deceiue vs as touching this vntruthe I graunt the words are not in that treatise entituled de coena domini But whether the author say the same thing in sense let him selfe witnesse M. Iuel alleaging no Latine words but folowing the sense saith thus it is meat not for the belly but for the minde The wordes in Cyprian are these Sicut panis communis quem quotidie edimus vita est corporis ita panis iste supersubstantialis vita est animae sanitas mentis As the common bread which we eate daily is the life of the body so this bread supersubstantiall is the life of the soule and the health of the minde and what is héere falsified by M. Iuel Or what is worthy blame in this allegation Yet M. Harding taketh this smal occasion to finde fault with his printed sermon with his replie and with them that as he saith