so notable a peece of vvork consisteth of tvvo false principles and rotten pillers vvhereof the one is that vvee must of necessitie haue the same kynde of gouernment that vvas in the Apostles tyme and is expressed in the scriptures and no other the other is that vve may not in any vvise or in any consideratiō reteyne in the Church any thing that hath bin abused vnder the Pope if these tvvo postes be vveake yea rotten as I haue proued them to be in this my Defense then must the building of necessitie fall Touching the first it is to be vnderstanded that there is a double gouernment of the Church the one spirituall the other externall Christ onlie and none other by the operation of his spirite and directiō of his vvord spiritually gouerneth his Church and reignyng in the conscienees of the faithfull guydeth their myndes in all matters of deuotion faith and holynesse and this is the spirituall kingdome of Christ so much spoken of in the scriptures and speciallie in the Prophets of this kynde of gouernment I meane not The externall gouernment hath both a substance and a matter about vvhich it is occupied and also a forme to atteyne the same consisting in certaine offices and functions and in the names and titles of them the substance and matter of gouernment must in deede be takē out of the vvord of God and cōsisteth in these pointes that the vvorde be trulie taught the sacramentes rightlie administred vertue furthered vice repressed and the Church kept in quietnes and order The offices in the Church vvhereby this gouernment is vvrought be not namely and particularelie expressed in the scriptures but in some pointes left to the discretion and libertie of the Church to be disposed according to the state of tymes places persons as I haue further declared in my Ansvvere and Defense follovving Of the secōd principle I haue also spoken at large there so that I shall not neede to trouble the Reader any further in these matters The proofes that T. C. vseth in this his Replie are grounded onlie vpō vntrue allegations and interpretations of the scriptures vaine and childishe reasons falsifying the authorities of Doctors other vvriters vntrulie ascribing that vnto them vvhich they vvrote not as shall be euidētlie declared in this Defense by the grace of God and surelie I haue not redde many bookes vvherein so many grosse vntruthes are to be found or vvherein there is so manye manifest argumentes vttered to proue the ignoraunce of the author and lacke of reading auncient and learned vvryters Touching his manner of vvriting I shal not neede to say much for any mā of iudgemēt that readeth his book may easilie perceiue vvith vvhat hautines of mynde vvhat contempt disdayne of others in vvhat sclaundrous and opprobrious manner it is vvritten hovve oft doth he repeate M. Doctor in contēpt either of the degree or of the person 370. times is the leaste vvhat other speaches of disdaine and reproche doth he vtter but I do nothing at all maruayle at it for I consider it hath bene the vsuall practise of sectaries and disquieters of Aug. lib. 1. contra Donatist the Church It is true that S. Augustine sayeth lib. 1. contra Donatist cap. 11. Nulli schismata facerent si fraterno odio non excaecarentur None would make schismes if they were not blinded with hatred of their brethren And againe An non est in schismate odium fraternum quis hoc dixerit cum origo pertinacia schismatis nulla sit alia nisi odium fraternum Is there not hatred of brethren in schismes who would saye so seeing that the beginning and continuaunce of schisme proceedeth from no other cause than from hatred of our brethren I must therefore saye vvith M. Zuinglius Scio quibus conuitijs quantis furoribus illorum Lib. de Baptis hic me exponam I knowe to what reproches and to howe greate rages of theirs I make my self subiect And I vvill conclude vvith him Quamuis miris conuitijs nos perstringere Eodem nouis quotidie clamoribus morderenō des a ̄t c. Although they maruelouselie slaūder vs and daylye with newe clamors reuile and backbite vs yet will I neuer leaue of the defense of the truth before their contumacie be made knowne to all men VVho so peruseth such learned authors as had greate experience of the lyke kynde of men he shall finde that their especiall grace both in speaking and vvriting hath bene in bitter inuectiues against other vvhom they haue enuyed and hated for some speciall causes M. Zuinglius in an Epistle that he vvriteth before his book de Baptismo speaking of the Anabaptistes sayeth thus Hyp critica illorum humilitas illis fatis nota perspecta est qui cum his aliquando sermones contulerunt quà m scilicet sit illorum oratio omni felle amarulentior Their hypocriticall humilitie is verie well knowne to those which haue had cōference with them how that their talk is more bitter than gaule And in his booke de Baptismo he earnestlie protesteth that he neuer found any thing in them quà m saturninam quandam melan holicam ingeniorum contumaciam c. and in his book against Baltasar he sayth that by dispraysing and reuyling others they seeke to wynne credite vnto them selues How this qualitie agreeth vvith some of our men and especiallie vvith the author of this Replie I am content that other men iudge If I my selfe haue in vvryting and in this Defense spoken something more sharpelie it must be imputed to myne infirmitie and yet am I therevnto greatelie prouoked but herein as in manye other matters I submit my selfe to the iudgement of those that haue authoritie to iudge and of those that be learned for I am content still to make this the foote of my song Errare possum haereticus esse nolo To those that be in authoritie I onlie speake as M. Zuinglius did to the magistrates in his time vpon the like occasion Quòd si hoc cuiuis hominū impunè facere licebit In Ecclesiast vt quae priuato suae rationis consilio adinuenit in vulgus spergat inconsulta imò resistente etiam vniuersa totius ecclesiae authoritate breui plus errorum quà m fidelium Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere If it be lawful for euery man to publish abroade among the people those thinges which he hath deuised of his owne heade before he hath consulted with the church nay against the authoritie of the whole church in short time we shall see moe errors in the church than there be faithfull men and Christians And againe Si enim boc permittamus vt capitosus quisque Lib. de Baptis malè feriatus bomo mox vt nouum aliquid insolens animo suo concepit c. If we suffer euery hedie and braynelesse fellowe so sone as he hath cōceyued any new thing in his mynd to publish
the whole scope of the Epistle and the playne and euidente wordes of the texte for what is this but to giue Timothie superioritie and gouernment ouer the other Ministers of Ephesus to saye vnto hym aduersus presbyterum Agaynst a Minister receyue no occusation c and as thys authoritie of Iudgement is not onely gyuen vnto Timothie but to all Byshops of like callyng so that also of teachyng that godlynesse is profitable to all thyngs c. perteyneth to all Ministers of the worde generally and not to Timothie alone This is onely the difference that the firste is common to Timothie wyth all other Byshops of like iurisdiction the other common to him with all other ministers of the worde You knowe that euery Pastor or other Minister of the worde hath not other Pastors and Ministers of the worde vnder hym that it maye be sayde vnto hym aduersus presbyteros c. as it is here sayde to Timothie for I haue proued before that presbyter dothe signifie the Ministers of the worde and Sacramentes and shall haue occasion to speake more of it hereafter You saye that there is an hundreth suche things in the Epistles of Timothie and Titus ▪ I thinke that there is not one hundreth seuerall preceptes in all the thrée Epistles These stoute and hyperbolicall bragges wyth so manyfest resisting of the playne sense and meanyng of the Scriptures argueth an euill conscience and a mynde so addicted to errour that it will not be reformed Manye things in these Epistles perteyne to all Christians many things be proper to Byshops suche as Timothie was and many common to all Ministers But this aduersus presbyteros ▪ c. muste néedes to proper be those that haue vnder them other Ministers committed to theyr gouernment which euery Pastor hath not Chap. 3. the. 58. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 3. And Epiphanius Lib. 3. Tom. 1. contra Haeresim Aerij proueth Timothie his superioritie Epiphanius ouer the rest by this selfe same place T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 3. As for Epiphanius * This is your practise to discredite the author that speaketh against you it is knowen of what authoritie he is in thys place when as by Aerius sides he goeth about to pricke at the Apostle ▪ whilest he goeth about to confute the Apostle which maketh a distinction and difference betwene those which the Apostle maketh one that is a Bishop and elder and to spare the credit of Epiphanius it were better lay that opinion vpon some Pseudepiphanius which we may doe not without great probabilitie seyng * Augustine sayth that the Ad quod vult deum true Epiphamus vttereth all after a storie fashion and doth not vse anye disputation or reasoning for the truth agaynst the falshood and this Epiphanius is very full of arguments and reasons the choise whereof M. Doctor hath taken Io. Whitgifte I haue not heard any probable reason alleaged of any why these bookes of Epiphanius The writings of Epiphanius contra 80. haereses not counterfeite should be suspected whether they be his or no seeyng they be both learned and very auncient mentioned also of sundry olde writers But to omitte all other proofes I wyll onely vse the iudgement at this tyme of the authors of the Centuries who are to be credited in suche matters bycause they haue diligently and carefully laboured in them their opinion of these bookes of Epiphanius Cent. 4 cap. 10. is thys Nunc de scriptis c. Nowe we wyll speake of hys bookes of the which that worke against Cent. 4. cap. 10. the foure score heresyes is most noble which booke he hymselfe in his Epistle to Acacius and Paulus Ministers And in his booke called Anacephaleosis calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Of the which writing Augustine in his booke ad quod-vult-deum maketh this mention Our Epiphanius Byshop of Cyrus sayth he which dyed not long since speaking of foure score heresies wrote also himselfe sixe Bookes making mention of all things after an Historicall maner disputing nothing either against the falsehood or with the truthe They be but short bookes and if they were all made in one yet were it not to be compared to ours or to diuerse other mens bookes in length Out of the which words it is euident that Augustine neither had nor at any time dyd see that worke which Epiphanius intituled Panarium for Epiphanius is very long in recountyng the historie as concerning the beginning the endeuour countrey of the heretikes the occasiō of the heresie the successe increase and suche lyke throughout euery heresie Then is he very long in confuting and condemning the heresies by true Scriptures and the interpretation of them wherfore it should seeme that Augustine had belyke onely the arguments prefixed before the Tomes of bookes of Epiphanius whiche he dothe therefore call shorte bookes or at the least had his booke called Anacephaleosis which is the summe of his worke called Panarium Cornarius that writeth Cornarius the Preface before this booke of Epiphanius is of the same iudgement and addeth these wordes VVherefore eyther Augustine dyd not see this worke of Epiphanius or the right worke of Augustine is not extant but loste or else Augustine dyd not in deede performe that whiche he promised I can reade of none that doubteth whether these bookes were Epiphanius his or no. And certaynely this kinde of answering is nexte the worst especially when it is vsed agaynst suche approued authors And bicause all men may vnderstande what Epiphanius wordes and reasons be Aerius here sie in denying the difference betwixt a Be shop priell ▪ Epi. li. 3. 〈◊〉 haeres 75 ▪ whiche in déede pinche you very néere for he calleth you heretikes I will declare them as I haue there founde them First he setteth downe the heresie of Aērius in these words His talke was more outrageous than becōmed a man and he sayd what is a Bishop to a Priest he nothing differeth from him for there is but one order and the same honor and dignitie The Bishop layeth on his handes and so dothe the Priest the Bishop ministreth baptisme and so dothe the priest the Bishop sayth diuine seruice and so doth the Priest the Bishop sitteth in his throne and so dothe the Priest In this he hathe deceyued many and they vse him for their captayne Then dothe he a little after confute this heresie with Aerius reasons on this sorte To saye that a Bishop and a Priest is equall howe can it be possible for the order of Bishops is the begetter of fathers for it ingendreth fathers to the Churche the order of Priests not beeing able to beget fathers dothe beget sonnes to the Churche by the sacrament of Baptisme but not fathers or teachers and howe is it possible for him to ordeyne a Priest not hauing imposition of hands to electe or to saye that he is equall with a Bishop but phantasticalnesse and emulation deceyued the
you doe notably sclaunder them and it is already answered If you meane that those are Puritanes or Catharanes whiche doe set foorthe a true and perfecte paterne or platforme of reforming the Churche then the marke of this heresie reacheth vnto those whiche made the booke of common prayer (b) An vntruthe for I do not saye so in any place whiche you saye is a perfecte and absolute rule to gouerne this Churche wherein nothing is wanting or too little nor nothing running ouer nor too muche As for the Catharanes whiche were the same that are otherwise called Nouatians I knowe no suche opinion they had and they whome you charge are as farre from their corruption as you bee Io. Whitgifte You haue sayde vnto me in one place of your booke Quid verba audiam cumfacta videam euen so I saye to you for why will they not come to oure Sermens or to oure Churches why will they not communicate with vs in oure Sacramentes not salute vs in the stréetes nay spitte in our faces and openly reuile vs whye haue they their secrete conuenticles You knowe all this to be true in a number of them I knowe not why they shoulde doe so excepte they thinke them selues to be contaminated by hearing vs preache or by comming to our Churches or by communicating otherwyse with vs. Whiche if they doe it argueth that they persuade them selues not onely of suche an outwarde perfection but of suche an inwarde puritie also that they may as iustly for the same be called Puritanes as the Nouatians The qualities of Nouatus and cause of his heresie were You knowe that the first occasion why Nouatus did separate him selfe from the Churche was bicause he coulde not obtayne the Bishoprike of Rome whiche he ambitiously desired You knowe also that his pretence was bicause the Bishops dyd receyue those into the Churche whiche had fallen in the time of persecution Afterwardes he fell into greater and mo absurdities for commonly suche as once deuide them selues from the Churche fall from errour to errour without staye This Nouatus thoughe he séemed to condemne ambition in all other men yet was he most ambitious him selfe thoughe he by vehement othes denied him selfe to desire a Bishoprike yet did he most gréedily séeke for it though he boasted of more perfection in lyfe and of a more perfecte platforme of a Churche than he thoughte others had yet was it nothing so He was the firste that I reade of that forseeke his Nouatus the first that forsooke his ministerie ministerie and that sayde Se nolle amplius presbyterum esse sed alterius Philosophiae studiosum that he woulde no longer be a Minister but a student in other Philosophie Reade Eusebius in his sixte booke of his Ecclesiasticall historie Cap. 43 and Nicephorus in his sixte booke also and third chapter Surely the storie of Nouatus is worthy to be noted bycause there be so many at these dayes which do not so much differ from him in opinions as they agrée with him in conditions You affirme that I saye The booke of common prayer to be a perfecte and absolute rule to gouerne this Churche wherin nothing is wanting or too little nor nothing running ouer or too muche If I haue sayd any suche thing quote the place that the Reader may consider of it and knowe that you speake the truthe But if I neuer eyther spake or writte any suche thing then are you a false witnesse and I haue to desire the Reader to consider of the reste of your sclaunderous reportes according to the truthe of this I haue learned with Sainct Augustine to giue this reuerence onely to the wryters of Canonicali Scriptures that I thinke none of them to haue The canonicall scriptures are only absolute perfect erred in wryting And I doe firmely beléeue that onely the bookes of the Canonicall Scripture are of that absolutenesse and perfection that nothing maye be taken awaye from them nothing added to them I doe not thinke the Communion booke to be such but that it may admitte alteration I doe not beléeue it to bée so perfecte but that there maye be bothe added to it and taken from it But thys I saye that it is a godly booke withoute any errour in substance of doctrine and nothing in it that I knowe agaynst the worde of God and those imperfections or rather motes that you saye to be in it not to be suche that any godly man oughte to stirre vp any contention in the Churche for them muche lesse to make a schisme and least of all to deuide him selfe from the Churche This is my opinion of that booke whiche vnlesse by learning and good authoritie I iustifie let me haue the blame and shame of it I will not enter into your heartes to iudge what you thinke of your inwarde puritie whiche notwithstanding in comparison you haue in this present place arrogated vnto your selues that very perfection of an outwarde platforme of a Churche whiche you chalenge vnto your selues is one steppe to Nouatianisme and well deserueth the name of Catharisme ¶ Of the authoritie of the Churche in things indifferent Tract 2. Some thinges may be tollerated in the Churche touching order ceremonies discipline and kinde of gouernmente not expressed in the word of God Chap. 1. the first Diuision Admonition SEing that nothing in thys mortall lyfe is more diligently to bee soughte for and carefully to bee looked vnto a 2. Reg. 23. 3. Chro. 17. 2. Chro. 29. 30. 31. Psal. 132. 2. 3. 4. Mat. 21. 12. Ioh. 2. 15. than the restitution of true religion and reformation of Gods Churche it shall bee your partes dearely beloued in this present Parliamente assembled as muche as in you lyeth to promote the same and to employe your whole laboure and studie not onely in abandoning all Popishe remnauntes bothe in ceremonies and regimente but also in bringing in and placing in Gods Churche those thinges onely whiche the Lorde him selfe b Deut. 4. 2. Deut. 12. 32. in hys worde commandeth Bicause it is not mought to take paynes in taking away euill c Psal. 37. 27. Rom. 12. 9. but also to be occupied in placing good in the steade thereof Nowe bicause many men see not all thinges and the d 1. Cor. 2. 14 worlde in thys respecte is maruellously blinded it hathe beene thoughte good to profer to your godly consyderations a true platforme of a Churche reformed to the ende that it beeing layde before your eyes to beholde the greate vnlykenesse betweene it and thys our Englishe Churche you maye learne eyther with perfecte e Psal. 31. 6. Psal. 139. 22. hatred to deteste the one and with singular loue to embrace and carefull endeuour to plante the other or else to be without excuse before f Iohn 15. 21. the maiestie of our God who for the discharge of our conscience manifestation of his truthe hathe by vs reuealed vnto you at this presente
to the word and yet not conteyned in the worde Men may haue an opinion of Religion and merite in suche thinges as they thinke not to be of necessitie to saluation To be shorte men may make that sinne whych the worde of God maketh not sinne as all those doe whiche forbid the vse of indifferent things and make the same vnlawfull as I haue sayde before You sée nowe that there is no one parte of this diuision as you call it which dothe not include something not conteyned in the other partes and therfore all those vnséemely and immodest tauntes and words mighte haue bin forborne I aske no forgiuenesse of you for any thing that I haue wrytten But I beséeche God forgyue you your outrageous contemptes and vnchristian floutes and iestes where with your booke is more pestered than any of Hardinges is where he sheweth him selfe moste scurrilous But I will omit them all and onely desire the Reader to consider of what spirite they come and in bothe our writings to respecte the matter not the person Touching the exposition of the places of Deut. let the learned Reader compare it with the expositions of the learned Interpreters and then iudge of my vnskilfull The Replier hath spēt many wordes in confuting that which he him selfe cōfesseth diuiding and defyning Here now I wold gladly know what T. C. hath proued agaynst the thing y t I haue here writtē or how he hath iustified y e propositiō of y e Admonition which I haue refelled for the sūme of al is this The authors of the Admonitiō say that those things onely are to be placed in the Churche which God him selfe in his worde commaundeth This I confesse to be true in matters of saluation and damnation But I saye it is vntrue in matters of ceremonies rites orders discipline and kinde of gouernmente which béeing externall matters and alterable are to be altered and chaūged appoynted and abrogated according to time place and person so that nothing be done agaynst the worde of God And T. C. confesseth page 15. that Pag. 15. Sect. 5. certayne things are lefte to the order of the Churche bicause they are of that nature which are varied by tymes places persons and other circumstances and so could not at once be set downe and established for euer and yet so lefte to the order of the Churche as that it doe nothing agaynst the rules aforesayde The same dothe he affirme in effecte in this place Nowe I pray you tell me what difference is there in our wordes he saythe that certayne thinges are lefte to the order of the Churche c. so that nothing bee done agaynst the rules aforesayde And I saye that the Church hath authoritie to appoynt orders rites ceremonies c. so that nothing be done agaynst the worde of God In déede he goeth muche further in this matter than I doe for where I saye The Scripture expresseth all things necessarie to saluation he affirmeth that many things are bothe commaunded and forbidden c. as I haue before noted and is to Pag. 13. Sect. 2. be séene page 13. of his booke But to ende this matter I haue iustified my assertion by the scriptures 1. Cor. 14. Act. 6. and. 15. 1. Cor. 11. Also by the testimonies of Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Cyprian Ambrose Basill Augustine c. Likewise by the practises of Councels the reporte of Historiographers as Socrates and Sozomenus Finally by the iudgement of late writers M. Caluin and Bucer Now will I also adde a fewe wordes for the further confirmation of the same and so ende this question ¶ The opinion of other late wryters of things indifferent The. 7. Chapter Zuinglius in his booke de baptis after that he had declared howe the Scripture contayneth Zuinglius all thinges necessarie vnto saluation he sheweth That in externall things and matters of ceremonies many things are to be vsed in the Churche whiche be not contayned in the Scriptures And speaking of this place Philip. 3. If any think otherwise God will also reueale the same vnto you neuerthelesse in that wherevnto we are come let vs proceede by one rule or agree among our selues saythe That the Apostle there speaketh of nothing else than of externall ceremonies and rites the vse and administration whereof the same Apostle in that place affyrmeth to be in our vvill and povver so that vve doe nothing repugnant to the commaundement of God Neyther trouble the publyke peace whereof we oughte to haue especiall regarde for externall thinges These be the very wordes of Zuinglius in the which there is first to be noted the interpretation of the words of the Apostle Philip. 3. Secondly that he vseth Collections out of Zuinglius this exception So that we doe nothing repugnant to the commaundement of God which T. C. so muche misliketh The same Zuinglius in the same booke verifieth in playne wordes that whiche I before haue touching a negatiue argument from the authoritie of the Scriptures Peter Martyr vpon the. 1. Corinth 1. wryteth That there be three kindes of traditions P. Martyr one expressed in the Scriptures an other playne repugnant to the worde of God The thirde neither contrarie to the worde of God nor yet necessarily ioyned to the same in the vvhich vve muste obey the Churche These three cautions beeing obserued First that they be not obtruded as worship of God or peculiar holynesse but as pertayning to order and the ciuill commoditie of the Churche and to comelynesse in diuine actions for all thinges be sufficiently contayned in Scriptures that pertayne to the worshipping of God and holynesse Secondly that they be not counted so necessarie but that they may be altered if time require Let the Churche keepe hir interest and authoritie in these indifferent things to appoynt vvhat shall be thoughte most necessarie and meete to edifying Last of all that the people of God be not burdened with to great a multitude of them Thus farre Martyr Gualter in his preface to the first Epistle to the Corinth after that he hath declared Gualter the diuersitie of rites vsed in diuerse Churches concludeth on this sort VVherefore S. Augustine writing to Ianuarius after that he had layde forth diuerse ceremonyes of Churches obserued in his time dyd very well thinke that this shoulde be the most safe rule vnto Christian men if they did frame them selues vnto those Churches wherevnto they should come in those things which might be done without any preiudice vnto fayth and godlynesse his wordes are these There is in these things meaning customes and rytes no better rule or instruction for a graue and wise Christian than that he do after that manner the which he seeth vsed of the Church vnto the which he shall peraduenture come c. The which moderation if all men woulde vse at this day there would be lesse contention in the Church neither shoulde Christian libertie be abridged by the superstitious traditions
Onely bicause Polidore wryteth that Clement sayth this in a certaine short and summarie booke of christian religion you haue set downe that he wryteth thus in a booke intituled Compendiarium Christianae religionis where there is no such tytle neither in the Councels where his Epistles are neyther yet in all other his workes Thought you to disguise him with this newe name of the booke that he should not be knowne or ment you to occupie your answerer in seeking of a booke which bicause he should neuer finde he should neuer answere The place which Polidore meaneth is in the first Epistle which he wryteth vnto Iames the brother of the Lord which is as the rest are both ridiculous in the maner of writing and in the matter oftner tymes wicked and blasphemous which I speake to this ende that the reader through the commendation that M. Doctor hath giuen to this Clement in taking him as one of his witnesses in so great a matter be not abused Io. Whitgifte Here is much more labour spent than is necessarie No man denyeth but that the Epistles attributed to Clement are Counterfeyte neyther do I otherwise alledge him or Anacletus or any such like than both M. Caluine M. Iewell and many other learned men do as it is euident in their writings That testimonie whiche I vse is out of Polidore and therefore haue I quoted both the booke and Chapter Polidore wryteth as other doe that intreate of such matters and for as muche as he was learned and of purpose gaue himselfe to the searching out of such things his report is not lightly to be reiected But God be thanked neyther the name nor the anthoritie of an Arfhbishop dependeth vpon these witnesses neyther do I vse them as sure groundes but as probable testimonies of the antiquitie of the name You haue cited the Canons of the Apostles thrise at the least in this your booke and Higinus likewise and vsed them as proofes and yet is there as great suspicion in the counterfeyting of them as there is of this booke of Clements I pray you therefore giue me that libertie in recyting Authours that you take to your selfe and that no man refuseth when they serue to his purpose For I protest vnto you that I haue as euil an opinion of many of them and think as great corruption to be in them as any man doth and that not only bicause I haue so red in other mens writings of them but also for that I my self in reading of thē haue noted the same But I am well assured that Polidore ment that Clement which is supposed to be the first Bishop of Rome how he was therein deceyued béeing so learned a man I leaue it to others to iudge It is not like that Polydore ment that Epistle for hée knewe what difference there was betwixt an Epistle and a booke neyther doth the length or the matter of that Epistle giue anie occasion that it shoulde so be called wherefore it is like that Polydore had it out of some booke attributed vnto Clement vnder that title thoughe the same be not extant For there be diuerse woorkes of auncient fathers whiche bée not now ertant in print and yet in some places to be had But I will not stande longer in this matter The wordes of Polydore be these Sicut D. Clemens in suo Christianae religionis compendiario libello perhibet c. Chap. 2. the second Deuision T. C. Pag. 67. Sect. 3. For answere vnto him although he be not worth the answering I say first it may bee well sayd here of the office of the Archbishop that the father of it was an Amorite and mother an Hittite that is that it commeth of verie infamous parentage the beginning thereof beeing of the Idolatrous nations Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes of pleasure it will appeare in this discourse that the parents and authours both of the office and of the name be such as ought with greater reuerence to be spoken of and with greater signification of duetie Chap. 2. the thirde Diuision T. C. Pag. 67. Sect. 4. And whereas Clement maketh S. Peter the Apostle to make it as it were his adopted sonne therby to wipe away the shame of his birth it doth S. Peter shamefull iniurie For besides that it was farre from S. Peter to take this authoritie to himself not only of making Archbishops thorowout euery Prouince but also instituting a new order or of fice without the counsell of the rest of the Apostles which none else of the Apostles did and which is cōtrarie to the practise of S. Peter both in the first and sixt of the Actes contrarie also to the practise of the Apostles which after shall appeare I say besydes this is it like that S. Peter woulde graffe the noblest plant as it is sayd of the ministerie of the Gospell in such a rotten stock of that which was most abhominable in all Idolatrie For the greater they were in the seruice of the Idolles the more detestable were they before God Io. Whitgifte I do not take vpon me the defense of Clements wordes in that Epistle or of Polydore in the booke and Chapter before recyted in all things that they spake touching the matter But I cannot suffer your vaine reasons to serue for an answere For if Saint Peter did thus place Archbishoppes yet did he not appoynt any newe order or office as you haue bene oftentymes tolde Of all Byshops there is one order or One ministerie of bishops but diuerse degrees ministerie but diuerse degrées Betwéene an Archbyshop and a Bishop there is onely a difference of degrée and dignitie not of order or ministerie as diuerse learned men giue vnto Peter aboue the rest of the Apostles the preheminence of honour for orders sake but not of power Moreouer Peter in appoynting them without the consent of the other Apostles did no otherwise than the Apostle S. Paule whē he placed Timothie at Ephesus and Titus at Creta It may be also that in some places where there were before Archiflamines he placed such as were called Archbishops c. whiche might be done in respect of y e city place and not in respect of the idolatrous priests For Archiflamines were but in great Cities which being conuerted vnto Christ might haue in the place of their Archiflamines Godly and learned Archbishops to ouersée and direct the rest of the Bishops and Preachers that vnitie and order might be obserued Thus Paule did at Ephesus and Creta And why might not Peter do it in other places likewise Chap. 4. the fourth Diuision T. C. Pag. 67. Sect. 5. 6. 7. 8. The Lorde when he woulde giue lawes of woorshipping to his people in the things that were indifferent of shauing and cutting and apparell wearing sayth to his people that they should not do so and so bicause the Gentiles did so yea euen in those things the vse whereof was otherwise verie profitable and incommodious to forbeare he
or Minister shoulde be learned in the mysteries of the Gospell and such a one as is able to set downe in wryting in his studie the sense of the Scripture but one whiche is apt and fitte to teache And the Prophete Malachie sheweth that he must haue the lawe not in his papers Mal. 2. but in his lippes noting thereby that it is necessarie to haue the gifte of vtterance And Esay the Prophete saying that God had giuen him the tongue of the learned doth thereby declare Esay 50. that it is not sufficient that he be well instructed in the mysterie of saluation but that he haue also the gift of vtterance Io. Whitgifte And why doth not he which readeth an other mans Sermon preache as well as hée doth when he readeth his owne What if he pronounce another mans Sermon in the Pulpit without booke doth he not preache bicause it is not his owne I do not speake this to defende any such ignorant Pastor that should néede so to depende vpon other mens labours I doe but put a case It may be that a learned Pastor hauing both memorie and vtterance sometime vpon occasion may reade a Sermon And I nothing doubt but in so doing he preacheth And surely he shall the more redily haue the lawe in his lippes if he haue it first in his Papers And yet if he reade he must vse his lippes Ieremie the Prophete as it appeareth in the. 36. Chapter was commaunded to write that which the Lord had commaunded him to say to the people of Iere. 36. Iuda and of Ierusalem and to cause it to be read vnto them and so it was in the open congregation and in the house of the Lorde in the hearing of all the people And so did Baruch in like maner write that which he had to say to Iechonia and to Bar. 1. all the people and read the same in the open congregation Bar. 1. and surely both these bookes were Sermons Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 127. about the middest Afterward M. Doctor asketh whether S. Paule did not preach to the Romaines when he wrote vnto them No forsooth his writing to the Romaines was no more preaching than S. Rom. 1. Paules hande or his pen. which were his instruments to write with were his tongue or his lightes or any other partes which were his instruments to speake with And S. Paule himselfe writing to the Romaines putteth a difference betwene his writing his preaching when although he wrote vnto them yet he excuseth himselfe that he coulde not come to preach vnto them saying that he was readie as much as lay in him to preach vnto them Io. Whitgifte Forsooth and I thinke verely that the same Epistle did them more good and wrought more with them than if the selfe same matter had béene preached vnto them and not written And if you will but peruse the. 15. and. 16. vers of the. 15. Chapter of that Epistle I thinke that you shall heare the Apostle call this written Epistle in effect preaching I do not perceyue that in the first Chapter of this Epistle he maketh any such difference betweene his wryting vnto them and hys preaching If you meane the. 15. verse he therein onely signifieth that so much as lyeth in him he is readie personally to preach the Gospell among them as well as he doth it nowe by his letters and therefore to say that this his wryting is no more preaching than his hande or his pen was his tongue or his lightes is a proper iest but not so apt for the purpose nor so fitte for your person A mans minde is commonly much better expressed by wryting than by worde and that which is written continueth Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. somevvhat past the middest But sayeth he was not the reading of Deuteronomie preaching No more than the reading of Exod. Here be good proofes It is generally denied that readyng is preaching and M. Doctor without any proofe taketh it for graunted that the readyng of 〈◊〉 is preaching al men see how pitifull reasons these be Io. Whitgifte And why then did God by Moses Deut. 31. commaunde the Priestes and Leuites that they should reade The wordes of this lawe before all Israell that they might Deut. 31. heare it and learne and feare the Lorde God and keepe and obserue all the wordes of the lawe Why did Iosiah after he had founde this booke cause it to be read before all the people if readyng had not bene effectuall and of as great force to persuade as preaching that is if readyng in effect had not bene preaching If the eight chapter of Nehemias Nehem. 8. be well considered and the true meaning of the. 4. and. 7. verses according to learned and godly interpreters weyghed and pondered this controuersie will soone be at an ende it will there appeare in expresse wordes that readyng is preaching These pitifull reasons so disquiet your patience that it woulde pitie a man to see how of a diuine you are become a scornefull iester Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 162. Sect. 2. Act. 15. it is thus written For Moses of old tyme hath in euery citie them that preach him seyng he is read in the Synagogues euery Sabboth day Where he also seemeth to call reading preaching T. C. Pag. 127. Tovvardes the ende And in the. 162. page he alleageth that in the. 15. of the Actes S. Luke seemeth to meane by readyng preaching But what dealing is this vpon a (*) If your seemings and coniectures were taken away there would be few reasons left seeming and coniecture to set downe so certainely and vndoubtedly that reading is preaching and then there is no one letter nor syllable that vpholdeth any suche comecture For S. Iames sayeth that Moses meaning the lawe read euery Sabboth thorough out euery towne in the Sinagogue was also preached or had those that preached it setting forth the order which was vsed in all the hurches amongst the people of God that alwayes when they mette vpon the Sabboth dayes they had the scriptures first read and then preached of and expounded which is that the Authours of the Admonition do desire and therefore complayne for that after readyng followeth no preaching which any indifferent man may easily vnderstande by that that they saye In the olde tyme the worde was preached nowe it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read Io. Whitgifte Surely the place of it selfe is euident neyther can I reade any interpreter that doth otherwise vnderstand it than of reading the occasion of vttering these wordes importeth the same For S. Iames doth vse this for a reason why the ceremonies of the lawe could not by and by be abolished among the Iewes bycause Moses was of so great authoritie with them beyng read euery Sabboth day in their Churches Therefore hauing the wordes of the Scripture with me I must rest in my opinion
commaunde them Pag. 186. 10 He sayth that those which write the Centuries suspect the Cannon of the Councell of Laodicea which forbiddeth the electiō of ministers to be committed to the people and doubt whether it bea Bastarde or no whiche is vntrue for the Authours of the Centuryes make no such doubt Pag. 188. 11 He sayth that Hierome willeth that the people should haue power and authoritie to choose their clearks their ministers which is not so for Hierom willeth no such thing Pag. 203. 12 He alledgeth Musculus his wordes in stead of Ieromes and that which onely Muscu sayth in his cōmon places he ascribeth to Ierom in his epist. to Nepotian ead 13 He sayth that Nazian in an oration that he wryteth at the death of his father confuteth those reasons that seeme to hinder the election of Ministers by the Church and yet is there no such thing to be founde in that oration Pag. 205. 14 He referreth the Reader to the. 6. and. 7. booke of Eusebius for examples of elections of the people Clergie confirmed by the Christian magistrate namely in the Bishop of Constantinople and yet is there no such examples in those bookes neyther any mention of any Bishop of Constantinople Pag. 207. 15 He fathereth a manifest vntruth vpon Eusebius lib. 6. touching Origens admission into the ministerie Pag. 209. 16 He leaueth out the wordes of the Councell of Chalcedon that open the meaning of the Councell Pag. 222. 17 He againe ascribeth Musculus his wordes to Ierome Pag. ead 18 He denyeth that Chrysostome maketh a distinction betwixt Bishops and Elders when as his wordes be plaine Pag. 226. 19 He doth vntruely and corruptly alledge Theodorete Pag. 268. 20 He sayth Pag. 280. that the two treatises called the Admonition were written by diuerse persons the one not knowing the others doings the contrarie whereof is manifestly declared 21 He citeth Nicephorus corruptly Pag. 326. 22 He falsifyeth a place in the first of Iohn by a false interpretation to make it serue his turne Pag. 302. 23 He sayth that the Centuries alledge a place of Ambrose out of his booke de dignitate sacerdotali to proue that the office of an Archbishop was not then come into the Church Which is vntrue for the Centuries alledge no suche place out of Ambrose for any such purpose Pag. 337. 24 He sayth that Hierome and Augustine speake of Archdeacons in those places where they onely speake of Deacons Pag. 346. 25 The wordes of Socrates are falsified Pag. 350. 26 He vntruly reporteth the wordes of Cyprian Pag. 257. 27 He falsifieth the meaning of Tertullian alluding that to Ceremonies that Tertullian meaneth of matters of fayth and of saluation Pag. 370. 28 He kéepeth back the wordes of Theodoret that explane his meaning Pag. 412. 29 An vntruth concerning Iereneus auouched out of the fifth booke of Eusebius Cap. 3. 4. Pag. eadem 30 He peruerteth the wordes of the Gréeke scholiast Pag. 413. 31 He auoucheth an vntruth of Theodoret. Pag. 415. 32 He vttereth a verie vncharitable vntruth of the worthie man M. Iewel Bishop of Sarisburie Pag 422. 33 He sayth that in the Councell of Antioch it appeareth that the Bishop of the Metropolitane seate called Synodes and propounded the matters which were to be handled and that it was his office to see that the Bishops kept themselues within their owne Diocesse and he quoteth the. 9. Canon where no such thing is to be founde Pag. 435. 34 He both addeth and detracteth from the. 34. Canon attributed to the Apostles Page 439. 35 The. 17. Canon of the Councell of Antioche is vntruely alleadged Page 440. 36 He should saye an Epistle of Pope Zachary to Boniface and he sayth an Epistle of Zachary to Pope Boniface In the whiche Epistle he saythe that this cause scil Least they shoulde wax vile through the multitude is alleaged why there should not be a Bishop in euery village or little citie which is vntrue for there is no such cause alleaged there 443. 37 He alleadgeth the fift Canō Concilij Tyronnes for that that cannot be found in it Pag 446. 38 He saythe that another councell quoting the Councell of Afrike decreed that the Christians shoulde not celebrate feastes on the birth dayes of Martyrs because it was the manner of the heathen which is a manifest vntruth for there is no such decrée in that councell 479. 39 He sayth That Tertuliian would not haue the Christians to syt after they had prayed because the Idolaters did so and he quoteth his booke de anima where there is no such thing written Page ead 40 He fathereth an vntruth of Augustine touching Baptizing by women or in priuate houses Page 522. 41 He alleageth M. Beza in his annotations for that which cannot be founde in thē Pag. 584. 42 He saith that if we will take the nature of the sacrament so straightly as Augustine doth that there be no sacramentes but when as to the element there commeth the worde the circumcision can be no Sacramen which is a grosse vntruth for in circumcision there is both the word and the element Page 〈◊〉 43 He saith that the eldership was most flourishing in Constantines time but he noteth 〈◊〉 place where we may finde his saying to be true Page 651. 44 He is greatly deceiued about the excommunicating of Apollinaris and sheweth manifest tokens that either he hath not himselfe read the story or that he hath read it very negligently as it is plainely declared in the Defense Page 669. 45 He falsifieth Ambrose Page 670. 46 He alleageth a place of Tertullian very deceitfully Page 673. 47 He saith that Augustine in his bookes de Bap. contra Donatistas 〈◊〉 that if the most of the people be in ected with the fault which is to be punished that then no excommunication ought to be attempted for because 〈◊〉 sufficient number of voyces will not be obteined for the excōmunication whereas these wordes for because a sufficient number of voyces c. are not to be founde in these bookes of Augustine Page 675. 48 He maketh an vntrue report of the. 10. Canon of the Councell of Anti h. Page 682. 49 He alleageth that for making Ecclesiastical lawes and ceremonies which is ment of building and repayring of Churches out of Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Constant. Epist. ad Eusebium Page 698. 50 He affirmeth that this practise continued still in the Churches of God scil that nothing was broughte into the Church to be read besides the word of God whereas the contrarie is manifestly proued of the same time whereof he meaneth Page 718. 51 He saith that S. Iohn in the Apocalips reprehending the ministers of diuers Churches dyd not put to his name vnto his booke whiche is a manifest vntruth for he addeth his name both in the beginning and in the end thrise in the first chapter and once in the last I here omit his manifest wresting of the Scriptures his wrong collections bolde assertions contrarie
Donatisme pag. 622 The Replyer put to the proofe of his ceremonies 614 The Replier tripped in his own net pag. 693 T. C. teacheth S. Augustine to speak pag. 609 The marke that the Replyer shoteth at 56 The drift of the Replier 315 T. C. forsaketh the Apostolical form in Election 193. 195 ¶ Telesphorus a good Bishop 6 2 ¶ Theodoret had gouernement of 800. churches 415. 472 Theodoret of Chrysostome 412 ¶ Thracia annexed to the Archbisshoprike of Constantinople 413 ¶ Of these wordes Take thou eate thou 600 ¶ Diuersitie of Tymes require a diuerse gouernement c. 174. c. ¶ Timothies authoritie 401 Timothie Bishop of Ephesus 404 c. 470. Timothie oft absent from Ephesus pag. 236 The iurisdiction that Timothie vsed in some respect ciuill 769 ¶ Titus Archbishop of Creta 325. 400. 431. 470. ¶ Titles of dignitie in ministers not Antichristian 353 Honorable Titles of Bishops 448 Men called by vndeserued Titles 70 71. Titles in the church vnder the lawe whereof God is not the expresse author 304 ¶ The othe of the fellowes of Trinitie Colledge in Cambridge 1. 235. Trinitie Colledge and the fellowes deliuered frō the slaunderous Replye 745 ¶ The maintenance of Truth as necessarie as the suppression of errours 496 ¶ It is not better to frame our ceremonies to Turkes than to papists pag. 471 V. ¶ Vanitie 351 ¶ Omne verum à spiritu Sancto est pag. 551. 552 ¶ Vicars or substitutes 681 ¶ Victor a good Bishop 510 ¶ Vix what it importeth 796 ¶ Vniuersitie landes stand on the same pinne with Bishops 452. ¶ Vse of things wickedly inuented pag. 273. c. Priuate vse of Idolatrous things forbidden 272 Common vse of Idolatrous things page 273 The vse and abuse of things indifferent 276 ¶ Vsurpe both in Ministring and preaching offend God 520 W ¶ VVa er cakes 596 ¶ VVatchmen and Sheapheards 220 237. ¶ The weake not offended with apparell 〈◊〉 In what sort of indifferent thinges we ought to respect the weake 258. ¶ VVhoremongers in the visible Church 1 ¶ VVickednesse of men causeth not lawes to be euill 1 4 ¶ VVidowes 6 ¶ VVine and Bread consecrated too Idols 275. 276 ¶ Froward wittes 481 ¶ VVhen a woman maye preach Christ. 50 The cause of the VVomans absence from the Church after her deliuerance 53 The VVomans vayle 53 ¶ Strife about wordes proper to q rell rs 5 ¶ VVhat it is to adde and to take away from the VVord 1 Difference betwixt the worshipping of the true God falsly and 〈◊〉 Gods 27 ¶ Mens writings read in the chur pag. 7 The occasion and circumstances of mens writings must bee considered 114. 292 Z ¶ Zuinfildians condemne reading pag. 252. 569. 71 ¶ The Zeale of the Replier 36 Preposterous Zeale 48 The Printer to the Readers I could not be but that in so great a volume some things should escape euen those that are diligent and carefull I especially considering the speedie dispatch and other circumstances notwithstanding if before you enter to reade this booke you will take the paynes to mende these faulces with your pen the rest being lighter will not greately stay your course in reading or otherwise alter the sense and meaning Fare you well Pag. 2. line 8. reade plainly Pag. 21. line 22. for priuately reade priu ly Pag. 50. line vlti for I speake not of their opinions reade I speake not of all their opinions Pag. 62. line 38 reade in these Pag. 67. line 37. for or reade for Pag. 78. line 34. reade and seeking helpe of the Egyptians Pag. 104. lin 22. for abiunde reade aliunde Pag. 124. line 45. reade Is homo Pag. 191. line 45. for worde reade wordes Pag. 244. line 13. reade in the euill day Pag. 252. lin 46. for any confession reade my confession pag. 253 lin 7. reade Chap. 1. pag. 254. line 13. reade chap. 1. and line 48. reade Chap. 2. pag. 304. in y ◠margēt reade wherof God pag. 349. line 29. for and reade as pag. 448. line 32. reade 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 468. lin 46. for his own reade this one pa. 481. lin 32. for more reade moue pag. 508. lin 1. reade encomber the Answerer pag. 523. lin 25. reade conuentur pag. 536. line 20. for yll read it pag. 537. lin 42. for those read this pag. 541. line 21. for constraine read restreyne pag. 661. line 20. read thus election of ministers is no correctiō of vice neither yet is the deciding c. pag. 663. line 53. for there reade therefore pag. 665. in the margent for eternal reade externall pag 685. lin 6. reade the. 11. diuision pag. 708. line vit for rather reade either pag. 722. line vlt. adde this heaping vp of scriptures shewe me one place in this epistle yea in pag. 731. line 41. for seruice reade sorow pag. 803. lin 7. reade Gods worde pag. 806. line 4. reade of defiance salued pag. 810. line 41. reade fi ¶ To the Churche of Englande and all those that loue the truth in it T. C. vvisheth mercie and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe AS our men doe more willingly go to warfare and fighte with greater courage agaynst straungers than agaynst their Countreymen so it is with me in this spirituall warfare For I woulde haue wished that this controuersie had beene with the Papistes or with ether if any can be more pestilent and professed e mes of the Churche for that should haue beene lesse griefe to write and more conuenient to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an enimie dothe kindle the desire of fighting and styrreth vp the care of prepa ng the furniture for the warre So I can not tell howe it commeth to passe that the name of a brother aketh that courage and abateth that carefulnesse whiche sheuld be bestowed in defence of the truthe But seeing the truthe ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause ▪ I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lorde mighte lay to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so readie as I ought to haue beene to publishe the truthe he mighte more iustly condemne me if beeing oppugned and slaundered by others I shoulde not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habilitie defende it and delyuer it from the euill reporte that some endeuour to bring vpon it An Answere to the Epistle dedicated by T. C. to the Churche of Englande c. IT doth not appeare by the style and maner of writing vsed in this your booke that there remayneth any portion of suche naturall affection or brotherly loue in you as you would beare the world in hand and séeme to haue by these your wordes For if you should haue written against the veriest Papist in the world the vilest person the ignorantest dolt you could not haue vsed a more spitefull and malicious more slaunderous and reprochfull more contemptuous and disdaynfull kinde of
But you haue not yet proued your doctrine now in question to be that doctrine of the Gospell of saluation These woordes might wel haue ben spoken of the Gospell against Mahometisme Iudaisme Papisme but you doe iniurie to that doctrine of lyfe when you confounde with the same your erroneous contentions about ceremonies and the kinde of gouernment whiche all béeing externall things I thinke not many will make them to be de necessitate salutis of necessitie vnto saluation you haue here sayde nothing of your doctrine but that whiche the Arrians the Pelagians the Papistes the Turkes yea almoste the Anabaptistes will say of theirs for many euen of the Anabaptistes confesse that Magistrates be necessarie but yet not to be lawfull for Christians to be Magistrates and for proof therof they vse diuers of the self same places that the Admonition hath alleaged and you allowed against superioritie in the clergie And except I be deceyued you come verie néere to them for you will haue the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill gouernment so distincte that they can by no meanes concurre in one and the selfe same persons wherby you take from the Ciuil Magistrate authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and by that meanes spoyle him of the one halfe of his iurisdiction But of this matter more at large hereafter as occasion shall be ministred by you In the meane tyme I admonishe the Reader to beléeue youre wordes no farther than he shall sée iust proofe of them T. C. If it be asked of the obedience due vnto the Prince and vnto the Magistrate it answereth that all obedience in the Lorde is to be rendred and if it come to passe that any other be asked it so refuseth that it disobeyeth not in preferring obedience to the greate God before that whiche is to be giuen to mortall man It so resysteth that it submitteth the bodie and goodes of those that professe it to abyde that whiche God will haue them suffer in that case Io. Whitgifte All this is truly spoken of the doctrine of the Gospell but not of the doctrine in controuersie amongst vs and verily this is not plaine dealing to make the reader beléeue that we doe withstande the doctrine of the Gospell when we only resist your contentions about externall matters wherby the doctrine of the Gospel is hindered and the Churche of Christ disturbed T. C. And if it be shewed that this is necessarie for the Churche it can not be but profitable for the common wealth nay the profit of it may easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipline of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kept back from committing of great disorders of stealing adulterie murder c. whylest the smaller faults of lying and vncomely 〈◊〉 of harde and cholerike speaches which the magistrate both not commonly punishe be corrected Io. Whitgifte If it be necessarie for the present state of the Churche it is also profitable for the present state of the cōmon welth for I perceiue no such distinction of the common wealth the church that they should be counted as it were two seueral bodies gouerned with diuers lawes diuers Magistrates except the Church be linked with an heathenish idolatrous cōmon wealth The ciuil Magistrate may not take vpon him What ecclestasticali functions the 〈◊〉 Magistrate may not take vpon him ▪ such Ecclesiastical functiōs as are only proper to the Minister of the Church as preaching of the wordé administring of the Sacramentes excommunicating and suche lyke but that he hath no authoritie in the Churche to make and execute lawes for the Churche and in things pertaining to the Churche as Discipline Ceremonies c. so that he doo nothing agaynst the woorde of God though the Papistes affirme it neuer so stoutely yet is the contrarie moste true and sufficiently proued by men of notable learning as Master Iewell Bishop of Salisburie Maister Horne Bishop of Winchester Maister Nowell Deane of Paules in their bookes written against Papistes holding your assertion to whose painefull and learned writings I res rre the Reader for the auoyding of too muche prolixitie I doe not well vnderstande what is mente by these woordes Naye the profite of it maye easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipliue of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kepte backe from committing of greater disorders of stealyng adulterie murther c. whylest the smaller faultes of lying and vncomely iesting of harde and cholerike speaches whiche the Magistrate dothe not commonly punysh be corrected Doe you not thinke the punishemente for stealing and murther to be sharpe enough or doe you thynke that the feare of the Discipline of the Churche will more terrifie men from these vices than the feare of deathe Or doe you doubte whether the Ciuill Magistrate hathe Authoritye to appoynte anye other punyshemente for these and suche lyke crimes than is prescribed in the Iudiciall Lawe of Moyses For thys is nowe called in controuersie and begynneth to bée table talke or are you perswaded that the Ciuill Magistrate eyther maye not or will not correcte lying vncomely iesting harde and cholerike speaches Or that if these were punished by the Discipline of the Churche men woulde rather be terrified from the greater crymes than they will be if they be punished with ciuill correction Truly I thinke that the ciuill Magistrate hath sufficient authoritie to prouide remedies for all suche mischieues without altering the state eyther of the church or of the cōmon wealth But let the indifferent Reader iudge whether you goe aboute to wring the swoorde out of the Magistrates hand or no or at the least so to order the matter that it be neuer drawne out to punishe vice but with the consent and at the appoyntment of you and your seigniorie T. C. And vndoubtedly seing that the churche and common wealth doe embrace and kisse one an other seing they be like vnto Hypocrates twinnes which were sick together wel together laughed together and weped together and alwayes lyke affected it can not be but that the breaches of the common wealth haue proceeded from the hurts of the Church and the wants of the one from the lackes of the other Neither is it to be hoped for that the common wealth shal florish vntill the Church be reformed Io. Whitgifte All this I grant and God be thanked therfore if we shal measure the state of the church with the florishing estate wise gouernment of the cōmon wealth we shall haue no great cause to complaine but to burste oute into moste hartie thankes vnto God for the same and most humbly desire the continuance therof I do not say that the Churche is without fault for then should I affirme an impossibilitie but I thinke the faultes that are rather to be in the persons than in the lawes rather in the gouernours than in the kinde of gouernment neyther woulde I haue men eyther Puritanes Donatistes or Anabaptists
peruerting of the words and meaning of the Epistle vnlearned tonges we had rather a great deale they were vnlearned than they should be as theirs * which haue taught their tonges to speake falsly And how vnlearned soeuer Ierem. 9. 5 you would make the world beleeue that we and our tongs be I hope through the goodnesse of God they shall be learned ynough to defend the truth against all the learning that you shall be able to assault it with If those be (b) Slaunderous and cursed speakers be not the generation of Christe the generation of Christe whiche you cal viperouse kinde of men Esay 53. 8. knowe you that you haue not opened your mouth against earth but you haue set it agaynst heauen and for all indifferent iudgement it will easily perceiue that you are as farre from the spirit of * John Baptist as you are neere to his manner of speach which you vse whither it be affection Math. 3. 7 or blind zeale that we follow and are driuen by it will then appeare when the reasons of both sides being laid out shal be wayed indifferently Wheras you say that your dutie towards God the Queene hir Maiesty moued you to take this labour in hād it will fall out vpon the discourse that as you haue not serued the Lord God in this enterprise and work of yours so haue you done nothing lesse than any godly dutie which you owe vnto hir Maiestie so that the best that can be thought of you herein is that where in an euill matter you could yeld no dutie yet now you haue done that which you thoughte a duetie which iudgement we will so long keepe of you vntil you shall by oppugmng of a knowne truth declare the contrary which we hope will not be What truth it is that we impugne and you defēd let it in the name of God appeare by our seueral proofs and answers of both sides And as for the slanderous surmises wherby in your third and last consideration you set the Papists of the one side of vs and the Anabaptists of the other and vs in the middest reaching out our hands as it were to them both first it ought not to be straunge vnto vs myserable sinners seeing that the Lord hunselfe without all sinne was placed in the middest of two greeuous malefactours as though he had bin worse than they both Then for answer of these slanderous speaches I will referre the Reader to those places where these generall charges are giuen out in more particular manner Io. Whitgifte It is well that you are content to rest in his iudgement vntill the time come for so indéed ought we to do as the Apostle admonisheth 1. Cor. 4. Nolite ante tempus quicquam 1. Cor. 4 ▪ iudicare Iudge not before the time vntill the Lord come c. Your coniecture is a méere coniecture in déede for vndoubtedly these so many harde words of mine bitter reproches c. would not haue bin kept so secret of you if you coulde haue had them foorthcomming But be it so as you will néedes haue it yet haue I not in like bitternesse of speach spoken against them as Zuinglius Bucer Caluine Bullinger Gualter c. haue done against the like troublers of the Church who had notwithstanding all these pretences and clokes to shadow their contentions with which either you or the Authours of the Admonition do alleadge for they pretende the Glory of God the Puritie of Religion the safetie of the Church as Master Bucer witnesseth in his Coment ▪ vpon the Ephe. Cap. 4. Master Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabap. Gastius in his booke de exordio erroribus catabaptist Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesi And Bullinger in his booke aduersus Anabaptist as I haue by setting downe their very wordes more at large declared in the second edition of my answere to the Admonition But graunt that for the loue of peace and hatred of contention and earnest zeale that I beare to this Church of Christ in England and dutifull affection to my souerayne I haue sometimes passed the bounds of modestie wherein I wil neyther accuse nor excuse my selfe yet are my speaches in bitternesse farre inferiour to those opprobries slanders and disdainefull words vttered either in the first or second Admonition or in your Replie And where haue you learned to espie a mote in another mans eye and not to sée the beame that is in your owne or what poynte of Rhetoricke do you call it to charge me in the beginning of your booke with that that you yourselfe most outrageously fall into sundry times almost in euery leafe or how vnwise are you to giue vnto me that councell which you yourselfe in no respect obserue But of both our modesties and manners of writing we must be contente that other men iudge which shall reade our bookes and therefore it is but in vaine either for you to accuse or me to excuse God graunt vs both the spirit of modestie and humilitie In my fourth reason by backbiters I meane all such as are ready to heare euill and speake euill of all men that be not of their iudgement and such as cease not continually to depraue those especially that be of any countenance and calling the which vice doth aboundantly reigne I will not say in all but in a great sort of your sect and those learned also I could name some which go from place to place for that purpose especially although vnder other pretences and in this qualitie they agrée with the Anabaptists as may appeare more plainly in the notes of the Anabaptists qualities conteined in the seconde edition of my answere to the Admonition to the which for breuities sake I referre you By vnlerned tongues I meane such of the common people as you haue deluded who in déede are caried away by a blinde and preposterous zeale and therefore the rather to be excused I know there be some both of the learned vnlearned sorte among you that haue milder spirites than the rest such I do not blante in this point I would other would follow their modestie As for the good that you and other woulde so gladly speake of me it euill appeareth in this booke where you do but deuise how possibly you may deface me in déede bothe you and some others if you considered your duties towardes mée and my dealings towardes you whilest you kepte your selues within your bondes haue small occasion to whisper of me in corners as you do or otherwise to deale so vnchristianly with me The euill that you know by me vtter it and spare not I desire no silence so that it be done where I may come to the answering of it And surely he that shall reade this your booke cannot but conceiue that if you knew any euill thing by me it would not be concealed But to all reproches I will answere as they come in order and proclayme defyance againste you for
the booke is not the cause of it neither yet a prescript forme of prayer but either the parties them selues that be vnlearned or they that do admitte them or else both This kinde of argument is vsuall in the Admonition There be other vnlearned and vnskilfull reasons vsed in thys booke which may easily be discerned euen of children And therfore I heere omit them Thus muche I thought good generally to write whiche beeing duly considered the booke it selfe needeth no other kind of coÌ„futation Io. Whitgifte To all this T. C. answereth nothing but onely to that of negatiues by comparison wherof I haue spoken before T. C. Fol. 1. Sect. 1. And to the ende the pithe and waight of M. Doctors arguments may be the better scene I will likewise giue the reader a say of them noting the places of the fallacions wherevnto they be referred Whiche I do agaynst my wil and compelled for that M. Doctor to discredite the truth would make his reader beleeue that those which thinke not as he dothe in these matters are not onely vnlearned but contemners of good learning In deede there is no great learning in these small things and they are of that sorte which although it be a great shame not to knowe yet it is no great commendation to haue knowledge of them Io. Whitgifte It had bin playne dealing to haue set downe M. Doctors argumentes in the same forme that he hath written them then might the reader better haue iudged of your collections but you were to wise for that for then should either your forgerie haue béene manyfest or else your booke should haue bin lesse by all this portion I séeke to discredite errors and contentious doctrine and not the truthe Suche learning there is euen in those small things that who so is ignorant of them may easily be deceyued bothe in speaking writing and reasoning T. C. Fol. 1. Sect. 2. In the. 40. page he reasoneth thus * An vntrue collection The ministers muste learne therefore they muste learne Cathechismes which is a fallacion of the consequent For although he that must learne a Cathechisme must learne yet it followeth not that whosoeuer must learne must byandby learne a Cathechisme Io. Whitgifte My words in that place be these If they that finde some want of learning in them selues or that be crepte into the ministerie vnlearned ither of their owne accorde or by commaundement of their ordinary reade and learne godly and learned Cathechismes they are to be commended and so is he that prouoketh them therevnto That Cathechisme which you in derision quote in the margent is a booke fit for you to learne also and I knowe no man so well learned but it may become him to read and learne that necessarie booke But some arrogant spirites there be that thinke them selues of all men b st learned and disdayne to learne of any That place of the fourth Chapter of the first to Timothie dothe not forbid a man to learne He that is a good and modest preacher will not disdayne as well to be taught as to teache Nowe howe any man can gather of these wordes any suche argument as T. C. frameth vnto him selfe let the Reader iudge He mighte well haue thus concluded Ministers that finde some want of learning in themselues c. ought to reade learne such bookes as may better instruct them Ergo they may reade and learne godly and learned Cathechismes And agayne M. Nowell his Cathechisme is godly and learned Ergo godly and learned men may reade and learne it Last of all a godly and modest Preacher will not disdayne aswell to be taught as to teache Ergo he will be aswell content to reade other mens bookes althoughe they be Cathechismes as he will be to haue other men to reade his Nowe I pray you iudge of the sequele of these reasons and compare them with T. C. his waywarde collection and tell me truely whether he dealeth simply or no. It is true that although a man must learne it followeth not that he must of necessitie learne a Cathechisme bicause there be other bookes besides Cathechismes to be learned wherby a man may be instructed but this is also true that if a man must learne he may learne Cathechismes Surely T. C. is driuen to a harde shifte when he is thus constrayned to feyne fallations where none are T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 3. In the. 55. page he reasoneth that for so muche as the ciuill Magistrate may appoynt some Another forged argument of T. C. his owne fram ng kynd of apparell therfore he may appoynt any and so the Popishe apparell which is ab eo quod est secundum quid ad id quod est simpliciter of whiche sorte he hath diuers others As women may baptize and preache bycause such a one and such a one dyd And the ministers execute ciuill gouernment bycause Elias and Samuell dyd Io. Whitgifte The words in that page be these May not therfore christian Magistrates in Christian common weales for order and decencie appoynt a seuerall kinde of apparell aswell to Ministers as to other states of men Iudges Sergeants Aldermen and Citizens are knowne by their apparell and why may not the Ministers be so likewise are they not vnder subiection be they not subiect to ciuill lawes and ordinances ought they not to obey their gouernours in al things not agaynst the worde of God If it had pleased T. C. to haue set aparte dallying he might haue séene that froÌ„ the last section of the. 54. page vnto the fourth section of the. 56. page my drift is to proue that Ministers may differ froÌ„ other by their apparel and that they may haue a distinct kinde of garments from lay men and that the ciuil Magistrate hath authoritie for order decencie to appoynt a seuerall kind of apparel to Ministers Now if he wold haue gathered truly he shuld haue framed his argumeÌ„t thus ChristiaÌ„ Magistrats haue authority in ChristiaÌ„ coÌ„moÌ„ weales for order deceÌ„cy to appoynt a sâ—ueral kind of apparell to Ministers Ergo â–ª Ministers may differ and be knowne froÌ„ other by their apparel Whether that the ciuil Magistrate may appoint them to weare suche apparell as was vsed in the Popes time or no that I handle at large euen from the. 4. section of the. 56. page to the portion of the Admonition in the 62. If T. C. had marked this myne order he woulde not so confounde him selfe and delude his Reader by suche vntrue collections of my arguments Touching the other examples of baptizing by women and ciuill offices in ecclesiasticall persons bicause he hathe not quoted the page whiche argueth he knoweth not where to finde them or that he is lothe the reader by searching the places should perceyue his corrupt dealing in the gathering I will deferre answering of them vntill I come where they or any similitude of them may be founde In the meane time with the first he chargeth me vntruly and
the beginning wearie of turning vp this (6) Note his mo est manerly speaches dung and refuting so baine and friuolous sclanders with out all shewe and face of truthe and therfore I will be briefe in the rest Io. Whitgifte I speake not here of the doctrine of the Anabaptists which is the certaine note wherby they may be knowne but of their other qualities and manner of talke and Preaching The wordes be M. Bullingers they be not mine The argumentes framed be yours and neither his nor mine Your disciples magnifie you bicause your vsuall talke both publike and priuate is They seke not the reformatiō but the diffamation of ministers against the Ministers of the Church against their calling against their preaching against their life c. which you doe not to reforme them for you doe it in their absence and to the people but to deface them and to discredite them not to promote the Gospell which they preache as diligently and syncerely as you doe but to bring them into hatred with the people whereby you might the rather preuaile in your enterprises not to reforme their manners for they maye compare wyth you in all kynde of honestie and dutie but to erpresse your malice and wrathe for that whiche Zuinglius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Anabap. in Elench contra Anabap. speaketh of them It is melancholie and wrathe not true zeale of whiche they glorie maye be truly verified of you and thereof let thys your booke be iudge Nowe if I say that in this poynte you agrée with the Anabaptistes I doe not therefore straighteway conclude that you are Anabaptistes but thys I conclude that you are not for suche inuemues to bée estéemed as more pure in deede than your brethren nor they thorough suche slaunde os speaches of yours to bée discredited bycause herein you speake or practise nothyng agaynste the true Ministers of the woorde of God but that whyche the Anabaptistes haue doone in the selfe same forme and manner before you And that these be qualities woorthie to bée obserued in the Anabaptistes and suche as procéede in lyke manner it may appeare not onely by this obseruation of M. Buliinger but of other learned and Godlie menne also that haue written agaynste them and giuen notes of their qualities Zuinglius in his Booke before named sayth That they speake euyll bothe Ibidem Why the 〈◊〉 speake euill of magistrate and 〈◊〉 Idem in les of the Ciuill Magistrate and of the ministers of the Churche that if at anye tyme eyther of them accordyng to theyr office reproue them then they streyghtwaye saye that therefore they bee enimyes vnto them bycause they tell them of theyr faultes And in his Ecclesiast he sayeth thus of them They so slaunder reuyle and backebyte the Ministers of the woorde and of the Churche that they oughte to be suspected and hated of all Godlye menne euen for theyr slaunderous and curssed speakyng But theyr ende and purpose is by thys meanes to wynne credite vnto them selues and to discredite suche as sette them selues agaynste them and detecte theyr erroures The lyke saying he hathe in hys booke De. Baptismo To the same effecte also speaketh Gastius of them in his Booke De exordio erroribus Catabap Gastiu where among other sentences he hath thys Theyr talke vttereth nothyng else but reprehension of the Ministers of the worde and libertie in externall things Now iudge I praye you whether this hath ben a qualitie woorthie to bée obserued in the Anabaptistes or no I doe not speake agaynste suche as modestly and accordyng to the rule of the Apostle 1. Tunoth 5. doo reproue any but agaynste those that haue nothing else in theyr mouthes but inuectiues agaynste the Ministers of the woorde obseruyng neyther place tyme nor anye other circumstances whome I still say in this poynt to be fitly compared to the Anabaptists Nowe whether it bée my Logike or yours that you gyue a taste of in thys placelette the learned Reader iudge to whome also I committe the tryall of thys spyrite of yours whyche bursteth out in suche vnséemely manner vpon the consyderation of your owne deuysed argumentes to féede your contempte and disdayne with In déede if you make argumentes where I make none and if you frame them as it pleaseth you no meruayle it is though you make a long booke and cause your Reader to beleeue that my Logicke is as simple as you woulde haue it But deale with mée vprightly and honestly and then set downe my vnskilfulnesse and spare not as I trust you woulde doo to the vttermost in euery poynt if you could séeing that you doe it where there is no occasion at all offered vnto you by mée but imagined of youre selfe Well let these quarelles goe more méete to be among boyes than among men Gratia Dei sum quod sum neyther haue I any thing but that whiche I haue receyued of him from whom commeth all good things Bothe of the election of ministers and of excommunication what I thynke I will declare God willing in their proper places The woordes here by me alledged as I haue saide are Master Bullingers and they be truly spoken and to good purpose as there it shall appeare In the meane while I referre you for that of the Magistrate in electing of ministers to the 87. and 88. leaues of that his Booke Aduersus Anabap. and for that of excommunication to the. 233. and. 234. leafe of the same Booke You denye that you saye there is no lawfull or no ordinarye callyng of Mynisters in Englande whych is a strange hearyng to mée for wherevnto then tendeth all that whych is wrytten in your Booke touching the electing and calling of Ministers or F st Admonition contrarie to T. C. that which is written in the fyrst Admonition Folio 9 ▪ where they say in playne termes that wee haue neyther a ryghte Ministerie of God nor a righte gouernement of hys Churche And Folio 34. 35. 36. c Folio 157. where they saye that thys prescripte forme of Seruice vsed in this Churche of Englande mayntayneth an vnlawfull ▪ Ministerie or that whyche is so bytterly spoken agaynst the Booke of orderyng ▪ Ministers and Deacons whyche they call the Pontificall But you saye that he may be lawfully called whyche is not ordinarilye I woulde haue you to speake playnely Is our calling to the Ministerie here in England lawful but not ordinarie If it be lawfull then is it not agaynste the woorde of God neyther is there any Lawe in the Scriptures to the contrarie as you woulde make vs to beléeue But truly I thynke that you were not here well aduysed or else haue you some suttle meaning for you adde immediately that there be places in Englande where the Ministers are called by theyr Parishes c. So that I suppose you meane that in some Parishes of Englande there is a lawfull callyng of Ministers if it bée so then is it not withstanding truly sayde that you
be not rightly and canonically called to these functions the selfe same do these men affirme T. C. Pag. 8. Sect. 2. I haue answered this in the seconde article of Anabaptisme that you charge vs with Io. Whitgifte Then haue I answered the same there also Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect 2. Thirdly the Papistes say that our Sacraments be not rightly ministred and so say they likewise T. C. Page 8. Sect. 3. This is also answered in the thirde Io. Whitgifte That is you haue there closely confessed this to be true But that the reader may vnderstande that it is most truely verifyed of them let him peruse that which is written in the seconde Admonition fol. 43. where they saye the sacraments be wickedly 2. Admon fol. 43. ministred and in the first Admonition fol. 89. and that also that followeth in thys booke Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect. 3. Fourthly the Papistes wholy ▪ condemne our booke of common prayers set out by publike authoritie and the whole order of our seruice in that poynt do these men fully ioyne with them also for they condemne it wholy and that with most bitternesse T. C. Page 8. Sect. 4. I answere that they doe not condemne it wholy but finde fault with it as in some poynts disagreeing with the word of God Io. Whitgifte For the proofe of this article reade the first Admonition fol. 85. 86. c. 148. c. the seconde Admonition fol. 9. 10. 38. 39. c. Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Page 6. Sect. 4. Fiftly the Papistes would not haue the Scriptures read in the Church to the people no more would they For they saye reading is not feeding but as euill as playing on a stage and worse to T. C. Pag. 8. Sect. 5. All men shall perceyue when I come to that place howe you haue racked their wordes to an other sense than they spake them in the meane season it is inoughe that they confesse that readyng in the Church is godly Io. Whitgifte It is wel that you confesse it to be godly it wil appeare when I come to that place that the authors of the Admonition both write and thinke farre otherwyse excepte they write one thing and thinke another Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. pag. 6. Sect 5. Sixtly the Papists denie the ciuill Magistrate to haue any authoritie in Ecclesiasticalll matters and so doe they T. C. pag. 8. Sect. 6. I haue answered in the (*) Where you haue not spoken one word of it tenth article of Anabaptisme Io. Whitgifte Your answere is there very confused and vncertaine but for the proofe of this article I referre the reader to certaine notes which I haue collected out of your booke touching this matter in this my defense Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. pag. 6. Sect. 6. To be short the Papistes refuse to come to our Church to Communicate with vs in the Lordes Supper and these men would not haue them by lawes and punishment compelled thervnto T. C. pag. 8. Sect. vlt. I answere that Doeg when he saide that Dauid came to Abimilech sayde nothing but truth and when they that witnessed against Christ that he sayde destroy the temple and in three dayes I will build it vp againe saide nothing but that our sauiour Christ sayde But yet Doeg was a slaunderer and the other false witnesses bycause the one spake of minde to hurte and the other vnderstoode it of another temple than our sauiour Christ ment it so although you do in parte rehearse their wordes yet taking them contrary to their meaning which might easily appeare by the circumstances I see not howe you can bee free from these faultes vnlesse it be done ignorantly which I wishe were true for your owne sake And here I wyll desire thee gentle reader to marke with what conscience this man sayth that they are ioyned and confederate with the Papistes agaynst the Church The Papistes mislyke of the Booke of common prayers for nothing else but bycause it swarueth from their Masse booke and is not in all poyntes lyke vnto it And these men mislyke it for nothing else but that it hath to much lykelyhoode vnto it And iudge whether they be more ioyned with the Papistes which woulde haue no communion or fellowship wyth them neyther in ceremonies nor doctrine nor gouernment or they which forsaking their doctrine reteyne part of theyr ceremonies almost their whole gouernment that is they that separate themselues by three walles or by one they that woulde be parted by the broade sea from them or which woulde be beuided by narrowe water where they maye make a bridge to come agayne and displace the truth of the Gospell as they haue done in tymes past They that woulde not onely vnhorse the Pope but also take awaye the styrrops whereby he shoulde neuer get into the sadle agayne or they that beyng content wyth that that he is vnhorsed leaue his ceremonies and his gouernment especially as styrrops whereby he maye leape vp agayne when as occasion serueth They that are content onely to haue cut the armes and body of Antichristianitie or they which would haue stumpe and roote all vp Io. Whitgifte Better it is to haue a bad excuse than none at all Their words and meaning is playne as shal appeare when I come to thē I thinke in déede their meaning is that they would not haue them cōpelled to come to our Churches and to communicate in the Lordes supper with vs as it is nowe ministred For it is well knowne howe they themselues refuse to do the same and howe they haue defaced both this Church and the manner and forme of administring the Sacrament what they woulde doe if they might haue their owne deuised reformation and haue the lawe in their owne handes I can not tell but it is very lyke that they woulde be sharpe and seuere inough in compelling men to come I speake of their opinion touching the compelling of men to come to our Churche vnto the whiche they come not themselues That whiche followeth in your Replie I haue sufficiently answered before Pag. 51. where I haue declared howe that it is no straunge thing for men of cleane contrarie iudgementes and opinions to ioyne togither in oppugning one and the selfe same truthe The Papistes pretende one cause of misliking the booke of Cōmon prayers and they pretende an other cause of misliking the same do they not nowe both ioyne in defacing and ouerthrowing it That which followeth is but words those things whiche they reproue in that booke be godly and moste of them not to be bettered The persons that stande in the defense of that booke haue all poyntes of Papistrie in as great detestation as they and peraduenture greater for they so occupie themselues in these externall thinges which be of small importance that in the meane time they The Admonitors gratifie the Papists slippe ouer matters of weighte and
so bounde that by no meanes we may declyne at any tyme from hys preceptes These places therefore may be aptly alleadged agaynste the pride tyrannie and ambition of the Byshop of Rome whiche seeketh tyrannically to rule and not to profyte but it maketh nothing at all agaynste the lawfull authoritie of any other in any state or condition of men T. C. Page 12. Sect. vlt. Concerning the exposition and sense of that place I agree with you and * Bylike it was fondly alleadged when you do but suppose their meaning suppose that it is quoted of the authours of the Admonition rather to note e ambition of certaine whiche gape greedily at these bishoppricks whiche wee haue to the ende they might be saluted by the name of Lords and honours than to proue that one minister should not haue dominion ouer another And therefore although these places be against no lawfull authoritie of any estate or condition of men yet as they are aptly alleadged against the bishop of Rome the one against his estate and authoritie simply the other againste his tyrannie and euill vsage of himselfe in that authoritie so it may be aptly alleadged agaynste any other whyche shall fall into the lyke faulte of the Byshoppe of Rome Io. Whitgifte It is manifest that they quote this same place for the selfe same purpose that they do the other there can be no mist so thicke that may darken the eyes of men from séeing it except they séeing will not sée as you do at this time I am glad that you agree with me in the exposition of this place surely in so doing you must also agrée with me in the exposition of the other For as Christ héere doth not forbid the names but the arrogant and ambitious desire of them so doth he not there forbid authoritie and superioritie but the coueting of it and ambitious and inordinate desire of the same And if you well marke the words Christ doth here much more plainly forbid these names then he doth thare those offices of superioritie If any man doth imitate the Byshop of Romes ambition either in office or in name he hathe me as greate an enimie as he hath you But in that you passe ouer with silence these words of mine these places therefore may be aptly alleadged c. you séeme eyther to allow my expositions of the other places also or else you are ashamed of your owne vnfaithful and subtil dealing which before would haue made your Reader beléeue that I had misliked all those godly learned mens iudgments which vse these places against the Byshop of Rome it had bin plaine dealing to haue set downe my words in order as I haue done yours Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 17. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Howe aptly that place of the. 24. of Mathew But if the euil seruant shall say in his heart c. is alleaged let all men iudge I thinke it forbiddeth not to punish such as breake good lawes But Lorde howe these men are beaten which do as they list say what they list that with reioycing therto that is if they be no otherwise beaten than hitherto they haue bin they will not only with schismes actions teare in sunder this Church of Englande but in time ouerthrow the whole state of the common wealth To proue that either we must haue a right ministerie of God and a right gouernment of his Church according to the Scriptures set vp c. or else there can be no right religion c. is alleaged the ninth of Mathew the fourth to the Ephe. and the eightenth of Mat. In the ninthe of Mathew the place they alleage is this Surely the haruest is great but the labourers be fevve vvherfore c. In the fourthe to the Ephe. He therfore gaue some to be Apostles c. In the eightenth of Mat. If thy brother trespasse agaynst thee c. The first place declareth that ministers of the word are necessarie in Christes Churche The seconde that there is diuers kindes and degrees of them And the thirde sheweth an order of correcting secrete sinnes and priuate offences and medleth not with those that be open and knowne to other Now therfore consider to what purpose those places be noted in the margent and how little they proue that which is concluded As for all the rest of the places of scripture that followeth noted in the margent of this Preface I knowe not to what purpose they be alleaged but only for vayne glory to bleare the eyes of the ignorant Subtilty in quoting places only people and to make them beléeue that al that which is written in this booke is nothing else but scripture it selfe They haue delte very subtilly to quote the places only and not to set them downe in playne wordes for by this meanes they thinke that of the most part it shall neuer be vnderstanded howe vnaptly and to what small purpose they be alleaged Io. Whitgifte All this L. C. passeth ouer in silence thereby as I thinke acknowledging it to be true Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 18. This name Puritane is very aptly giuen to these men not bicause The name of Puri ane they be pure no more than were the Heretikes called Cathari but bicause they thinke them selues to be mundiores caeteris more pure than others as Cathari dyd separate themselues from al other Churches and congregations as spotted and defiled Bicause also they suppose the church which they haue deuised to be without all impuritie T. C Pag. 13. Lin. 1. Sect. 1. The purenesse that we boast of is the innocencie of our fauiour Christ who shal couer al our vnpurenesse and not impute it vnto vs. And for so much as fayth purisieth the heart we doubt not but God of his goodnesse hath begon our sanctificatiō hope that he wil make an end of it euē vntu y e day of our Lorde Iesus Albeit we hold diuers points more purely thā they do which impugne them yet I knowe none that by comparison hathe either sayde or written that all these that thinke as we doe in those poyntes are more holy and more vnblameable in lyfe than any of those that thinke otherwyse If we saye that in those poyntes whiche we holde from them that we thinke soundlyer than they doe we are ready to proue it if we saye also that we lyue not so offensiuely to the worlde commonly by getting (a) And yet some of you haue a competent number without doing any duetie at them so many liuinges into oure handes as woulde finde foure or fyue good learned able Ministers all the world will beare vs witnesse Other purenesse we take not vpon vs. And therefore as the name was first by the Papistes maliciously inuented so is it of you very vnbrotherly confirmed Whereas you saye that they are Puritanes whiche suppose the Churche whiche they haue deuised to be without all impuritie if you meane without sinne
the sinceritie and simplicitie of his Gospel Not that you should either g 1. Tim. 3. 8. wilfully withstand or vngraciously tread h Math. 7. 6. the same vnder yourfeete for God doth not disclose his wil to any such ende but that you should yet nowe at the length with all your mayne and mighte endeuour that Christe whose i Mat. 11. 3 easie yoke and light burthen we haue of long tyme cast of from vs might rule and reigne in hys Churche by the scepter of his worde onely ¶ Answere to the Admonition Pag. 20. Sect. 1. 2. I Will not answere wordes but matter nor bare affirmations or negations but reasons and therefore in as fewe words as I can I will comprehende many lines But before I enter into their reasons I thinke it not amisse to examine that assertion which is the chiefe and The grounde of the Admonition principall grounde so farre as I can gather of their booke that is that those things only are to be placed in the church which the Lord himselfe in his worde commaundeth As though they shoulde saye nothing is to be tollerated in the Churche of Christ touching either doctrine order ceremonies discipline or gouernment except it be expressed in the word of God And therfore the most of their argumēts in this booke be taken ab authoritate negatiuè whiche by the rules of Logike proue nothing at all T. C. Pag. 13. Sect. 2. YOu giue occasion of suspicion that your ende will be scarse good whiche haue made so euill a beginning For wheras you had gathered out of the Admonition that nothing shuld be placed in the Churche but that God hath in his worde commaunded as though the words were not playne mough you will giue them some light by your exposition And what is that you answere that it is as muche as though they would say nothing is to be tollerated in the Church of Christ touching either doctrine order ceremonies discipline or gouernment excepte it be expressed in the word of God Is this to interprete is it all one to say (a) But their quarell is in tollerating not in placing nothing muste be placed in the Church and nothing muste bee tollerated in the Churche he hathe but small iudgemente that can not tell that certayne thinges maye be tollerated and borne with for a tyme. Which if they were to be set in and placed could not be done without the great faulte of them that should place them Agayne are these of like waighte excepte it be commaunded in the worde of God and excepte it be expressed in the worde of God Many thinges are bothe commaunded and forbidden of whiche there is no expresse mention in the worde whiche are as (b) A Papisticall assertion necessarily to bee followed or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made Therefore vnlesse your weightes be truer if I coulde let it you shoulde waighe none of my wordes Heerevpon you conclude that their argumentes taken ab authoritate negatiue proue nothing When the question is of the authoritie of a man in deede it neither holdeth (c) Vntrue affirmatiuely nor negatiuely For as it is no good argument to saye it is not true bicause Aristotle or Plato sayde it not so is it not to saye it is true bicause they sayde so The reason whereof is bicause the infirmitie of man can neither attayne to the perfection of any thing whereby he mighte speake all things that are to be spoken of it neither yet bee free from errour in those thinges whiche hee speaketh or giueth oute and therefore this argument neither affirmatiuely nor negatiuely compelleth the heare but onely induceth him to some lyking or mislyking of that for whiche it is broughte and is rather for an Oratour to persuade the simpler sorte than for a disputer to inforce him that is learned But for so muche as the Lorde God determining to set before our eyes a perfecte forme of his Churche is bothe able to doe it and hathe done it a man maye reason bothe wayes necessarily The Lorde hathe commaunded it shoulde be in his Churche therefore it muste And of the other side he hath not commaunded therefore it muste not be And it is not harde to shewe that the Prophetes haue so reasoned negatiuely As when in the person of the Lorde the Prophet saythe whereof I haue not spoken and whiche neuer entred into my heart and as where he condemneth them Ierem. 7. ver 31. 32. Esay 30. V. 2 * bicause they haue not asked counsell at the mouth of the Lorde Io. Whitgifte This my interpretation of their wordes is grounded vpon the whole discourse and drifte of their booke as it may euidently appeare to be true to any that hathe eyes to sée and eares to heare and shewe you if you can any one place in their booke whiche dothe ouerthrowe this my interpretation of their wordes I knowe it is one thing to saye that nothing muste be placed in the Churche and an other thing to saye that nothing muste be tolerated but I sée that they make no difference betwéene them neither in their writing nor yet in their practise And I thinke also that there is some difference betwixte these two manner of spéeches excepte it be commaunded in the worde of God and excepte it be expressed in the worde of God For I knowe sundrie thinges to be expressed in the worde of God whiche are not commaunded as Christ his fasting fortie dayes and his other myracles and therefore by that interpretation I haue giuen vnto them a larger scope than they them selues require whiche if it be an iniurie it is to my selfe and not to them But I thinke you were not well aduised when you sayde that many things are both An vnaduised assertion of T. C. tending to Papistrie commaunded and forbidden of whiche there is no expresse mention in the word of God whiche are as necessarilie to be followed or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made If you meane that many things are commaunded or forbidden in the worde which are not expressed in the worde in my opinion you speake contraries For howe can it be commaunded or forbidden in the worde excepte it be also expressed in the same If you meane that many thinges are commaunded or forbidden to bée doone necessarie vnto saluation whiche notwithstanding are not expressed in the worde of God then I sée not howe you differ from that opinion whiche is the grounde of all Papistrie that is that all things necessary vnto saluation are not expressed in the scriptures How soeuer you meane it it can not be true for there is nothing necessarie to eternall life which What is sayd to be expressed in the Scripture is not bothe commaunded and expressed in the Scripture I counte it expressed when it is either in manyfest wordes contayned in Scripture or therof gathered by necessary collection If I had to doe with a Papist I coulde
well and conueniently be But for so muche as you afterwarde make mention of excommunication and other censures of the Churche whiche are forerunners vnto excommunication I take it that you meane the externall gouernment of the Churche and that kynde of gouernment And yet muste I aske you another question that is whyther you meane that this gouernmente and kynde of gouermente is necessarye at all tymes or then when the Churche is collected together and in suche place where it maye haue gouernment For you knowe that the Churche is sometymes by persecution so dispersed that it appeareth not as we reade Apocal. 6. Nor hath anye certayne place to remayne in so that it can not haue anye externall gouernment or exercise of any discipline But to be shorte I confesse that in a Churche collected togither in one place and In what specte gouernment is necessarie at libertie gouernment is necessarie in the seconde kinde of necessitie but that any one kynde of gouernment is so necessarie that withoute it the Churche can not be saued or that it maye not be altered into some other kynde thought to be more expedient I vtterly denye and the reasons that moue me so to doe be these The firste is bycause I fynde no one certaine and perfitte kynde of gouernmente Reasons why the Church 〈◊〉 not tied to any one certayne kinde of externall gouernment prescribed or commaunded in the Scriptures to the Churche of Christ which no doubt shoulde haue bene done if it had bene a matter necessarie vnto the saluation of the Church Secondly bycause the essentiall notes of the Churche be these onely The true preaching of the worde of God and the righte administration of the Sacramentes Onely two essentiall notes of the church for as Maister Caluine sayth in his Booke agaynst the Anabaptistes Thys honour is meete to be gyuen to the worde of God and to his Sacramentes that wheresoeuer we Caluine aduer Anabap. see the worde of God truely preached and God accordyng to the same truely worshypped and the Sacramentes wythoute superstition administred there we maye wythoute all controuersie conclude the Churche of God to be and a little after so muche we muste esteeme the worde of God and hys Sacramentes that wheresoeuer we fynde them to be there we maye certaynely knowe the Churche of God to be althoughe in the common life of men manye faultes and errours be founde The same is the opinion of other godly and learned writers and the iudgement of the reformed Confess Heb uetica cap. 17. Churches as appeareth by their confessions So that notwythstanding gouernment or some kynde of gouernment maye be a parte of the Churche touching the outwarde forme and perfection of it yet is it not suche a parte of the essence and being but that it may be the Churche of Christ without this or that kinde of gouernment and therefore the kynde of gouernmente of the Churche is not necessarie vnto saluation The Church of Corinth when Paule did write vnto it was the Church of Christ for so doth he call it 1. Cor. 1. where also he doth giue vnto it a singular commendation and yet it had not at that time when he so commendeth it that kynde of gouernment and discipline that you meane of that is excommunication as appeareth 1. Cor. 5. My thirde reason is this If excommunicatiō which is a kind of gouernment be necessarie to saluation then any man may separate him selfe from euerie Church wherin is no excommunication but no man may separate himselfe from euery Church wherin is no excommunicatiō therfore excommunication which is a kynde of gouernment is not necessarie to saluation The first proposition is euident for no man is bounde to remaine in that Churche where any thing is wanting without the which he cannot want of excōmunication is no iust cause of separation from any Churche be saued As for the seconde proposition that is to saye that no man ought to separate him selfe from euerie Churche where excommunication is not bycause it is learnedly proued by suche as haue written against the Anabaptistes who both dyd teache and practise the contrarie it shall be sufficient to referre you vnto them Maister Caluine in hys Booke against the Anabaptistes fayth thus Herein is the controuersie Caluine aduer Anabap. betwixte the Anabaptistes and vs that they thinke there is no Church where this gouernment meaning excommunication is not appointed or not vsed and exercised as it ought to be nor that a Christian mā there ought to receiue the Supper and vnder that pretence they separate themselues from the Churches where the worde of God is truely preached c. M. Bullinger also in his sixt booke against the Anabaptistes saith This the Anabaptistes Bul. lib. 6. aduer Anabap. do vrge that there is no true Church acceptable vnto God where there is no excommunication the whiche they vse To these therefore we answere that the Churche of Corinth was a true Church and so acknowledged of Paule to be 1. Cor. 1. before there was any vse of excommunication in it c. of the same iudgement is M. Gaulter writing vpon Gualter in 1. Cor. 5. the first to the Corinth 5. VVhilest the Anabaptistes persuade themselues that there can be no discipline wythout excommunication they trouble the Churches euery where c. In the same Chapter he sayth that there is no one certaine kinde of gouernment or discipline prescribed to y e Churches but that the same may be altered as the profit of the Churches shall require His words among other be these Let euery Church follow Ibidem that maner of discipline which doth most agree with the people with whō it abideth and which seemeth to be most fit for the place and time And let no man here rashely prescribe vnto others neither let him binde all Churches to one and the same forme But of this matter I shall haue occasion to speake more hereafter where it shall appeare howe farre this learned man M. Gualter is from allowing that kinde of g uernment now in this state of the Churche the which T. C. woulde make vs to beléeue to be so necessarie This haue I briefely set downe not to disalowe discipline or gouernment for I thinke it very conuenient in the Church of Christ nor yet to reiect excommunicatiō which also hath a necessarie vse in the gouernment of the Church but to declare that this assertion can not stande with the truth with learning that the kynde of gouernment meaning as I thinke some one certaine kinde of externall gouernment is necessarie to saluation Chap. 1. the thirde Diuision T. C. Page 14. Sect. 1. 2. And it is no small iniurie which you do vnto the word of God to pinne it in so narrow roome as that it should be able to direct vs but in the principall poyntes of our Religion or as though the substance of Religion or some rude and
whole Church of making of such orders may and ought to be called to a certayne number that confusion may be auoyded and with the consent also of the Churches to auoyde tyrannie it shall appeare in a more proper place where we shall haue occasion to speake of the eldership or gouernment in euery Church and of the communion and societie or participation intercommuning of the Churches togyther by councels and assemblies prouinciall or nationall Io. Whitgifte Diuers of those learned men here named being rightly enformed of the state of The occasion of mens writings must be considered this controuersie with all the circumstances perteyning therevnto haue set downe their opinions in writing and therefore if it should so come to passe which as yet is not proued neyther as I thinke will be that in their publike writings they should séeme to affirme any thing contrary to their priuate letters it is bycause they speaking generally of all and hauing respect to the time and place wherein and when such things were abused haue generally spoken of them otherwise then they do as they be now vsed in this Church of England And surely in my opinion these their epistles wherein of purpose being required they gyue their sentence of suche matters oughte to be more credited than their generall writings wherein they maye séeme otherwise to speake vppon other occasions But I thinke that in the ende it will fall out that they haue written nothyng publikely againste any thing that is written by them priuately and of some of them I am sure that their publike and priuate writings of these matters doe fully agrée But where haue you learned to answere on this sorte to the authoritie of learned men to accuse them of contrarietie before you haue manifestly proued it is to doe vnto them great iniurie The place of M. Bucer maketh directly for my purpose and therefore in giuyng place vnto it you graunte as muche as I hitherto haue required For M. Bucer vsed the example of apparell whiche is one thing in controuersie betwixte vs and sayeth playnly that the Church hath authoritie to appoint such things as haue neyther cōmaundement nor example in the Scripture These Epistles of M. Bucer and of M. Martyr with the Epistles of other learned men be printed and published wholly and fully and it can not bée that the same should be vnknown vnto you the bookes being so cōmon your pleading of ignorance in this thing is but a colour When euery Minister must be chiefe of the seigniorie and haue with some other of the parishe the whole authoritie Ecclesiasticall when they must not bee so First admo ▪ the. 14. reason tyed to any forme of prayers but as the spirite moueth them so to poure out supplications when the Prince is secluded from authoritie in appoynting of ceremonies and orders of discipline that is when in Ecclesiasticall matters you giue to the Ciuill magistrate no more than the Papistes do to wit potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris as will afterwardes more plainly appeare what is it else but for euery minister to be Pope in his owne parishe and to vse suche order discipline and seruice as he himselfe listeth If you had bin disposed to speake the truthe and to report my wordes as they be written you woulde haue eased your booke of these lynes whiche followe For where doe I giue this authoritie to the Bishops or in what words do I restrayne the Churche to them my wordes be these Is it not as lawfull for a godly Prince with the aduise and consente of godlie and learned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church c. You sée that I ioyne the Prince the Bishops and other of the wisest together in making of orders c. and whensoeuer I meane the Churche in suche a case I meane not the confused multitude of the Church but suche as God hath called to gouerne his Church in the externall gouernment whome I take to be in this Churche the Prince the Bishops the Councell and suche other as by the order of this Churche haue to do in suche like matters Your falsifying hurteth not me but discrediteth your selfe and your cause The Bishops haue muche to thanke you that it would please you to admitte them into that consultation of yours if they woulde giue ouer that office and callyng But thanks be vnto God you haue as yet no suche authoritie committed vnto you Wherfore this and suche lyke kynde of speaches doe but declare howe magnifically you thynke of your selfe c. If it pertayne to the whole Churche that is as I thinke you vnderstande it to the whole multitude of the Churche to make suche orders howe can you restraine it to a certaine number or why not as well to some one if the multitude thynke it so conuenient but of this matter when you come to youre seigniorie and kinde of gouernment Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 30. Sect. 1. An examination of the places c. TO proue that nothing in this mortall lyfe is more diligently to be sought for and carefully to be looked vnto than the restitution of true Religion and reformation of Gods Churche there is noted 2. Reg. 23. 2. Chro. 17. 2. Chro. 29. 30. 31. Psalm .. 132 Math 21. Ioh. 2. In the firste place it is declared howe Iosiah after he had founde the booke of the lawe reformed the Churche In the seconde place Iehosaphat tooke away the high places and groues out of Iuda c. In the 29. 30. 31. of the. 2. Chron. is described the doings of Ezechias in repairing the temple and reforming religion c. In the. 132. Psalme it is declared with what care Dauid went about to build the temple of God after that he was once established in his kingdome In the. 12. of Math. Iesus went into the temple and cast out all them that bought and sold in the temple c. The like he did in the seconde of Iohn All this is confessed to be true and no man denieth it And I pray God make vs thankfull for the Queenes maiestie who hathe not bin slacke in this point but hath like a vertuous religious and godly prince in the very entring into hir raigne notwithstanding the multitude of hir aduersaries bothe at home and abrode abolished all superstition and restored the simplicitie of the Gospell But these men alleadge these places to the discredite of this reformation and of the whole gouernmente of this Churche How aptly and how truly let godly wise and learned meniudge Io. Whitgifte All this is passed ouer with silence and nothing said vnto it good or bad The exposition of the places Deu. 4. 12. quoted by the Admonition Cap. 6. The first Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 30. Sect. 2. TO proue that these things only are to be placed in gods Church The places in the. 4. and. 12. o Deutero expounded whiche God himselfe in
his word commaundeth is noted the fourth and the twelfth of Deut. Ye shall put nothing to thevvord that I commaund you neither shall you take any thing therefrom c. And in the other place VVhatsoeuer I cōmaund you take heed you do it thou shalt put nothing thereto nor take ought therefrom God in the old law to his people prescribed perfect and absolute lawes not only morall and iudiciall but ceremoniall also neither was there the lest thing to be done in the Church omitted in the law And therefore for them at that time and during that state it was not lawfull to adde any thing nor to take any thing away no not in ceremonies and other ciuill lawes now in the time of the Gospell God hath left vnto his Church expressed in his word a perfect rule of faith and manners and sufficient to saluation and cursed is he that shal adde any thing to it or take any thing from it in that behalfe for therein it is perfec te and absolute But as he hath lefte the iudiciall lawe to the discretion of the magistrate to adde there vnto or take therefrom or al er and change the same so that no law be made against the rule of faith and good manners expressed in the word of God c. T. C. Page 21. Sect 2. Unto the places of Deuteronome which proue that nothing ought to be done in the Church but that which God commaundeth and that nothing should be added or diminished First you answere that that was a precepte giuen to the Iewes for that time whiche had all thinges euen the least prescribed vnto them I see it is true which is said that one absurditie graunted a hundred follow For to (a) A 〈◊〉 peruerting of ma ni ell and playn words make good that things ought to be done besides the scripture and word of God you are driuen to runne into part of the errour of the Manichees which say that the old testament perteyneth not vnto vs nor bindeth not vs. For what is it else than to say that these two places serued for the Iewes time and vnder the law for surely if these two places agree not vnto vs in tune of the Gospell I knowe none in all the old testament whiche do agree And I praye you what is here saide which S. Iohn in the Apocalipse saith not where he shutteth vp the new testament on this sort I protest vnto euery man which heareth the prophecie of this booke that whosoeuer Apoca. 22. addeth any thing to it the Lord shall adde vnto him the plagues whiche are written in it And whosoeuer taketh away any thing from it the Lorde shall take away his portion out of the booke of life and out of the things that are written in it whiche admonition if you say perteyneth to that booke of the Apocalipse only yet you must remember that the same may be as truly said of any other booke of the scripture Io. Whitgifte My first answer to that place of Deuteronomie is true neyther can you disproue The first answer iustifyed it by any sound reason or good authoritie for if you will haue this precept now to be vnderstanded of all the selfesame ordinances and lawes of the whiche and for the which it was at that time giuen then must we of necessitie kéepe the ceremoniall and iudiciall precepts of the Law being at that time in force The which thing as I suppose no learned man will once imagine but yet as this precepte was then gyuen to them that they should adde nothing to the lawes of God then in force or take any thing from them so is it perpetuall for vs also that we shoulde adde nothing to the law of faith and manners which is likewise perfectly prescribed vnto vs in the booke of God And thus you sée how farre I am from the erroure of the Manichees and from thinking that the old testament doth not apperteine vnto vs and yet I am not so Iewish to How farre that precept in Deut. is extended thinke that we are bound either to the ceremoniall or iudiciall law and therefore I say that that precepte applyed vnto vs dothe not extende any further than to suche thinges as God hathe commauuded or forbidden vs that be Christians to do in hys word How vniustly therefore you charge me to say that these two places agree not vnto vs vnder the Gospell when as I haue plainly declared how they agrée to them vnder the law and to vs vnder the Gospell let any man iudge The words in the last of the Apocal. although they be properly and namely spoken of that booke yet I am fully perswaded that they may also be affirmed of the whole testament And I am so farre from allowing either addition or detraction to or from the word of God that I vtterly cōdemne as false that which you haue setdown before in your booke Fol. 13. That many things are both commaunded and forbidden of which there is no expresse mention in the worde which are as necessarily to be followed or auoyded as Fol. 13. Sect. 2. those whereof expresse mention is made Chap. 6. the second Diuision T. C. Page 21. Sect. 3. Then you are driuen to say that the Iewes vnder the law had a more certaine direction and consequently a readier w y than we haue in the time of the Gospell of the whiche time the Prophet Iet 31. v. 34 saith that then a man should not teach his neighboure they shall be so taught of God as if he should say that they that liue vnder the Gospell should be all in comparison of that whiche were vnder the lawe doctours And Esay saith that in the days of the Gospell the people shall not stand Isay. 56. in the outward courts but he will bring them into the sanctuarie that is to say that they should be all for their knowledge as learned as the Leuites and priests which only had entrance into it Io. Whitgifte In matters of ceremonies and iudicials they had moe particular rules prescribed Wherein the Jewes had a more certaine direction than we vnto them and a more certaine direction For we haue very litle in these matters particularly written in the new testament but the morall lawe we haue as perfect as they had and in the law of faith which is the law of the Gospell and the rule of saluation we do farre exceede them Other meaning than this there cannot with all the violence that you haue be wrong out of my words Your places alleadged out of the Prophete Ieremy and Esay improue nothing that I haue spoken for the Prophet Ieremy speaketh of the elect of God whome he Ierem. 3. doth teach and illuminate not only with the outward preaching of his word but by the maruellous operation of his spirit also The words of the Prophet Esay if you Esay 56. meane the 7. ver of the. 56. Chap. for else ther is no
moste pernicious I muste craue pardon of the Reader for making suche excursions out of the way Whether the Magistrate be bounde to obserue the Iudiciall law of Moses for I am compelled to followe you whiche interlace your booke with suche by ▪ matters and those so suspicious and daungerous that I can not safely passe them ouer with silence And euen nowe agayne do you enter into a straunge and dangerous opinion in my iudgement for you would haue the ciuill Magistrate bounde to obserue all the Iudiciall lawes of Moses excepte suche as were made in respect of the re gion where they were giuen and of the people to whome they were giuen Of the whiche lawes the Magistrate you say may onely chaunge the circumstances as the times and places and manners of the people shall require But you vtterly deni and are ready to proue if that perteyned to th s question that any Magistrate can saue the lyfe of blasphemers contemptuous and stubbo ne Idolaters murderers adulterous persons and suche like whiche God by his Iudiciall lawe hathe commaunded to be put to death Howesoeuer you passe this matter ouer as impertinent to this question yet for as The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the asser tion of T. C. muche as you haue héere set it downe and I am fully persuaded that it is vntrue I minde to touche it something and to vtter the reasons of my persuasions I leaue it to the consideration of those that knowe the lawes and state of the Realne and especially suche as haue the chiefe gouernment and care of the same what lieth hidde vnder this your opinion First all the lawes of this land that be contrarie to these Iudiciall lawes of Moses must be abrogated The Prince must be abridged of that prerogatiue which she hath in pardoning suche as by the lawe be condemned to dye the punishments of death for fellonie must be mitigated according to Moses law whiche doth by other meanes punish the same Exod. 22. To be short al things must be transformed Exod. 22. Lawyers must cast away their huge volumes and multitude of cases and content them selues with the bookes of Moses we of the Cleargie would be the best Iudges and they must require the lawe at our handes Deutero 17. verse 8. And so Deut. 17. while we make them beléeue that we séeke for equalitie among our selues we séeke in déede regall dominion ouer them Looke Deuter. 17. verse 12. But to omit all these considerations whiche I leaue to those to whom they do especially perteyne I wyll shew as briefly as I can how farre this opinion is from true diuinitie First besides all those places of Scripture whiche make generally for the abrogation The Iudiciall lawe abrogat of the whole lawe we haue especiall places for the Iudiciall lawe and namely those where Christ maketh lawes of deuorcement for adultrie Math. 5. and. 19. which Mat. 5. 19. were altogither néedlesse if she that is takē in adultrie should of necessitie be stoned to death according to y e law of Moses Aug. ad Pollentiū de adult coniug li. 2. cap. 6. 7. 8. 14. Augustine proueth by that whiche is written of Christ. Iohn 8. touching the woman deprehended Iohn 8. in adultrie and brought vnto him by the Scribes Pharisies that the wife taken in adultrie ought not to be punished with death but suffred to liue that she mighte be reconciled to hir husbande or at the least repent Cyril also vpon the. 11. of Leuit. saith that though the punishment of death was according to the law of Moses appoynted for adultrie Cyrill and certayne other crimes yet among Christians there is no suche commaundement in force Musculus in his common places tit de legib speaking of the law sayth thus Muscul. They aske the question whether the whole lawe be abrogated we answere if whole Moses gaue place to Christ then hathe his whole lawe giuen place to the lawe of Christe And a little after The commaundementes of the lawe are Morall Iudiciall Ceremoniall That the Ceremoniall commaundementes haue ceassed it is euident forsomuche as the Priesthoode of the lawe to the which the ceremonies were annexed is abrogated by the Priesthoode of Christ according to the order of Melchizedech and that the Iudicials also are ceassed it dothe herein appeare for that the whole order of gouernment of Israell which was requisite vnto the inhabiting of the lande of promise hath from that time ceassed wh as they beeing expelled began to dwell amongst the Gentiles without a king without gouernours without a Priest and without a lawe Hemingius in his Encber is of the same iudgement his words be these There is also Hemingius the Iudiciall law which expired with the common wealth of Moses so that it dothe not binde any man of necessitie but so farre onely as some portion of it dothe perteyne to the law of nature as the law agaynst incestuous mariages Leuit. 18. and so much of it lykewise as the ciuill Magistrate shall admit for pollicie I omit that place of M. Caluin which is written in his Harmonie vpō the. 5. bookes Caluin of Moses where he speaking of these lawes Exod. 23. Deut. 12. Num. 3 which were giuen for the breaking of Images destroying of places where idolatrie was cōmitted c. saith that they were but temporall exercises to kéepe the people in obedience c. And in the same booke speaking of the. 7 ▪ of Deut. The grauē Images of their Gods shall Deut. 7. ye burne with fire and couet not the siluer and golde that is on them c. saith Althoughe this was a politike lawe and giuen onely to the auncient people for a time yet hereby we may gather how detestable Idolatrie is c. But of all other places that is moste euident which he hathe in his Institu Cap. 20. Sect. 13. 14. 15. and therfore I wil rehearse it more at large Sunt qui rectè compositam rempub negent c. There are certaine which denie that Caluinus common welth to be well ordered which omitting the politike lawes of Moses is ruled by the common lawes of the Gentiles The which opinion how dangerous and seditious it is ☞ let other men cōsider it is inough for me to haue declared that it is both false foolish But that vsuall diuision is to be obserued which deuideth the whole law of God deliuered by Moses into maners ceremonies iudgements and euery part therof is diligently to be considered that we may vnderstande what perteyneth vnto vs thereof and what dothe not In the meane time let no man be troubled with this that both the Iudicials ceremonies did apperteyne vnto maners for the ancient fathers the inuentors of this diuisiō although they were not ignorant that these two latter parts were occupied about maners yet bycause they might be altered and abrogated without any preiudice vnto maners they called
borrowed this worde excell so haue you borrowed also this word onely for the words of Hierome be these quid enim facit excepta ordinatione Hie. ad Euag. Episcopus quod presbyter non facit VVhat dothe a Bishop whiche a Minister dothe not excepte ordination Whereby he manyfestly affirmeth as muche as I in this place require that is that the right of ordering Ministers doth apperteyne to the Bishop The same also Chrysostome in the lyke wordes wryteth in 1. Ti. 3. Touching the difference betwixt a Bishop and a common minister of the superioritie of Bishops and of their iurisdiction for auoyding of confusion where vnto you héere prouoke me I will speake when I come to that part of this booke You saye that this is an euill argument The Bishop hath the ordeyning of the Minister Election and ordinatio may concurre in one person Ergo he hath the election of him c. I thinke it is a very good argument and that you are greatly deceyued when you saye election and ordination can not concurre in one and the selfe same person althoughe they maye be distinguished the one from the other Had not the Master of the Colledge interest in the electing of you when you were chosen to be fellow and dyd he not also admitte you was there not then bothe election and admission in one man And is not the lyke in other degrées of learning Hathe not he authoritie to electe that hathe authoritie to admitte that is to ordeyne or haue you an example of any lawfully placed in the ministerie without the election and admission of the Bishop Haue you forgotten what you alleaged T. C. forgetteth him selie ▪ before out of the Councell of Carthage the Councell of Toledo c. where it is sufficiently expressed that the election of Ministers dothe aswell perteyne to the Bishops as it dothe to the people And doe not all the examples and places of scripture that you haue alleadged for your purpose verifie the same Wherefore thoughe election and ordination so differ the one from the other that the one can not be sayde to be the other yet maye they well be ioyned togither in one subiecte as Prudence Iustice Temperance and Fortitude are béeing notwithstanding members of one whole But this hathe deceyued you that you thinke bicause dyuers members An ouersight of T. C. of one whole can not be confounded among themselues and one verified of an other therefore they maye not méete togither in one and the selfe same person whiche is a grosse ouersighte of yours for take your owne example althoughe your foote is not your hande yet I am sure you woulde be sorie if one man mighte not haue bothe féete and handes But what neede I labour any thing in prouing this for you your selfe confesse more than I affirmed and as muche as I require that is that election and ordination are sometymes confounded in Ecclesiasticall wryters And therefore the one taken for the other I doe not denie but that sometymes also they be distinguished althoughe the Admonition in this place that I doe nowe confute dothe vtterly confounde them Chapter 7. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 41. Sect. 1. Upon the sixte of the Actes the glosse hathe that that whiche was done there of the twelue Apostles in willing the brethren to looke out fitte men was done to giue vs example and muste be obserued in those that are ordeyned for saythe the glosse the people muste choose and the Bishop muste ordeyne And that S. Hierome muste be so vnderstandes it appeareth not onely that it hathe beene so expounded but also it maye be easily proued for that S. Hieromes sentence and iudgement appeareth in other places that he woulde haue nothing heere done without the people as in his Epistle ad Rusticum monachum he (a) Hieromes words 〈◊〉 willeth that the people shoulde haue power and authoritie to choose their Clearkes and their Ministers And in his Epistle to Neopotian of the lyfe of the clearks he hath this distinction manifestly (b) An vntruthe ▪ proceeding of grosse ignorance for these are Musculus his words and not Hieromes They runne sayth he vnto the Bishops suffraganes certayne times of the yere and bringing some summe of money they are annoynted and ordeyned beeing chosen of none and afterwarde the Bishop without any lawfull election is chosen in hugger mugger of the Canons and Prebendaries onely without the knowledge of the people And so you see that althoughe that S. Hierome saythe that the Bishop had the ordeyning of the Ministers yet he had not the election for the ordeyning was nothing else but an approuing of the election by putting on of handes and consequently hauing made your vaunt that all the learned Fathers were of this iudgement that the Bishop shoulde elect the Minister you shewe not so muche as one Io. Whitgifte What glosse sayth so where shall a man finde it or where is it this is to large a scope that you take vnto your selfe But I muste pardon you for Illiricus of whom you haue borrowed it dothe not otherwyse quote the place Nowebeit the wordes as Illiricus dothe reporte them whiche I thinke are taken out of glossa ordinaria make nothing agaynst any thing that I haue sayde for if you will thus reason The Bishop must ordeyne Ergo he may not elect I denie your argument the reason I haue shewed before one man may bothe ordeyne and elect You haue vtterly falsified Hieromes wordes ad Rusticum monachum and muche T. C. falsifieth Hierome more declined from the true interpretation of them than I woulde haue suspected especially séeing you woulde be thoughte to haue intrapped me in the like not long before For the wordes of Hierome be these Cum ad perfectam aetatem veneris si tamen Hier. ad Rustic Monachum vita comes fuerit te vel populus vel Pontifex ciuitatis in clerum elegerit agito quae clerici sunt VVhen thou shalte come to perfecte age if thy lyfe be answerable and eyther the people or the Bishop of the Citie shall choose thee into the Cleargie doe suche thinges as belong to a Clearke He dothe not héere will that the people shoulde haue authoritie to choose their Clearks and their Ministers as you saye but he saythe vnto Rusticus the Monke that if eyther the people or the Bishop of the Citie choose him to be Clearke that then he must doe those thinges that perteyne to a Clearke He sayth vel populus vel Pontifex c. signifying that it was a thing indifferent to be chosen eyther by the people or by the Bishop which maketh for me against you for I say that a Bishop may choose a minister and you denie it The place that you alleage out of the Epistle of Hierome ad Nepotianum de vita T. C. fathereth that vpon Hierome whi che is not to be founde in him but is in Muscuins Clericorum is not to be
muche as one word of any Bishop of Cōstantinople And y t it may appeare how far you ar ouerséene in this place you shal vnderstād that the last Emperour of whom Eusebius maketh any mētion in these bookes is Dioclesian who came to the Empire Anno. 288. but Constantinople was builded Anno. 335. So that by your assertion the Byshop of Constantinople was confirmed aboue 40. yeares before Constantinople was Chap. 7. the. sixte Diuision T. C. Page 42. Lin. 2. Sect. 1. I will adde only one place which if it be more (*) Part riunt montes c. bitter than the rest and cut the quicke more neare you shall not be angrie with me but first with those that were the Authors of it and then with him that wrote it Eusebius in the sixth booke speaking of Origen which was admitted not of one Byshop but of many Byshops to teach sheweth how the Byshops were reprehended by the Byshop of Alexandria called Demetrius bycause they had admitted him (a) An vntruth as will appeare without the election of the Presbyterie of the Church which were the chiefe in the election in euery Church and vnto the whiche the Churches did committe the gouernment of themselues in euery seuerall towne and citie and saith that it hath not bin heard that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is that the lay men should teach when the Byshops were present Whereby it is euident that he counted him (b) Vntruth for O gea was yet a lay man and not admitted minister by any a lay man which was only admitted by the Byshops although they were many not being first elected by the presbyterie of that Church whereof he was the teacher Io. Whitgifte The terrible preface that is here prefixed would make any man quake that is not acquainted with such vayne bragges But soft man awhile you do but dreame for there is no such matter in that booke of Eusebius Did you neuer heare tell of any that T. C. smiteth at others but woundeth himselfe labouring to smite at another haue deadly wounded themselues I beléeue it will fall so out with you in this bitter and sharpe place and then shall not I neede to be angry with you you shall haue more cause to chafe with your selfe For answer to the place I say it is altogither by you falsifyed and most vntruly Eusebius fa sityed by T. C. alleadged the only thing that Demetrius found fault with was bycause Origen being a lay man did teache in the Churche Byshops being present for he saithe it was neuer heard that lay mē should teach in the churches Byshops being present But what is sayde to this nescimus quomodò c. wherein he affirmeth we know not how that thing which is not Eu. li. 6. ca. true seeing there may be found diuers who when they were able to profyte the brethren and that the holy Byshops had exhorted them to instruct the people did after this sorte teach in the Church As Euelpis was required to do at Laranda by Neon and Paulinus at Iconium by Celsus and at Synada Theodorus by Atticus whiche were all blessed brethren And it is very likely that this thing was done also in other places whiche we know not of Yea Demetrius himselfe suffered him to do the like in Alexandria as it is manifest in sundry places of that booke and euen in the end of the same chapter He retourneth to Alexandria and doth againe employ himselfe to his accustomed diligence in teaching But bycause this place is so confidently auouched and so vntruly I will set it downe as it is in Eusebius lib. 6. cap. 20. where he speaking of Origen saith thus In the meane time by reason of a greate warre begonne in that citie leuing Alexandria and thinking that he could not safely abide in Aegypt he went into Palestina and remayned at Caesaria where also he was requested of the Byshops of that countrie that he would dispute and expound the holy scriptures before the whole Church when as yet he was not ordeyned minister The whiche thing is hereby manifest for that Alexander the Byshop of Hierusalem and Theoctistus Byshop of Caesaria writing to Demetrius of him do after this sort render an accompt of that deed Furthermore he addeth this also in his letters that it was neuer heard of neyther yet at any time seene that lay men did teach in the Church Byshops being present wherein we know not how he affirmeth that thing which is not true c. As it is set downe before What one word is there here that sheweth how the Byshops were reprehended by the Byshop of Alexandria called Demetrius bycause they had admitted Origen without the election of the presbyterie of the Churche whiche were the chiefe in the election in euery Church and vnto the which the Churches did committe the gouernment of themselues in euery seuerall towne and citie c. as you affirme Nay is there any thing sounding that way the only cause why Demetrius reproueth them as I haue said is bycause they suffered Origen in their presence to interpret the scriptures in the Churche being as yet Origen was then indeede a lay man but a lay man And yet you sée how Demetrius is reproued for that also how by sundry examples it is there shewed that it is no rare thing for a lay man to interpret the scriptures in the Church the Byshop being present if he be there vnto called by the Byshop Is this your bitter place is this that terrible cutter Indéede it maketh your doings vncyphered and shrewdly woundeth you if you can well consider it But to make the matter yet more plaine Euseb. in the same booke and. 23. chapter sheweth how Origen afterwards accepit presbyterij gradum in Caesaria palestinae ab eius loci Euse. lib. 6. 23. Episcopis was made minister in Caesaria Palestinae of the Byshops of that countrie The which thing Demetrius misliked also not for any iust cause but only of malice for although Demetrius at the firste esteemed well of Origen and bare good will vnto hym yet afterwarde when he saw him maruellously to prosper and to become very famous and well accompted of he then sought meanes not only to discredite him but those also which had preferred him to the ministerie laying to his charge that which he had done being a boy that is gelding of himselfe as Eusebius doth at large declare lib. 6. cap. 8. You sée therfore how vntruly you haue reported Eusebius and that there is no suche cause by him expressed why Demetrius reproued the Byshops as you feyne to be But I partly smell your meaning which I suppose to be this that all we whiche are admitted into the ministerie by the Byshops withoute your presbyterie are but lay men whereby you would insinuate that all those which haue bin baptised by vs are not baptised bycause you say that it is of the
neeessarie to sende my brother Epaphroditus to you my companion in laboure and fellovv souldiour euen your messanger and he that ministred vnto me suche thinges as I vvanted Collossians 1. verse 7. As ye also learned of Epaphras our deare fellovve seruant vvhich is for you a faythful minister of Christ. Quorsum haec Howe proue these places that all Ministers then preached That of Luke chapter 9. proueth aswell that they cured diseases as that they preached and therefore out of that place you mighte aswell conclude that all Ministers oughte to be curers of sicknesses aswell as preachers This I wryte onely to let you vnderstande your vanitie and ignoraunce in quoting so many Scriptures to so small purpose Io. Whitgifte Ad haec ne verbum quidem but onely to the place of the nynthe of Luke and that out of place Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 52. Sect. vlt. I wishe that euery minister were a preacher but that beeing vnpossible as the state is now I see not how you can cōdemne reading Fayth commeth by reading ministers seeing reading is necessarie in the Church fayth cōmeth aswel by reading the scriptures in the booke as by rehearsing of thē without booke In the. 31. of Deut. it is thus written Leges verba legis huius coram omni Israel c. Thou shalt reade the vvords of this booke before all Israell c. S. Paule sayth in the. 15. to the Rom. 〈◊〉 scripta sunt c. VVhatsoeuer is vvritten c. But I neuer heard reading of the scriptures The Zuinfildians condemne reading of scripture reading of prayers reading of Homilies taken out of the scripture condemned but onely by the Authors of this booke and by the zuinfildians T. C. Page 50. Sect. vlt. Pag. 51. Sect. 1. If you should beget and be a father of many bookes and all your children like their eldest brother you would without better aduise shake many groundes of our religion For heere agayne you wishe that all pastors were able to teache but that beeing vnpossible as the state is nowe you are content with Pastors or ministers that can doe nothing but reade You throughout your whole booke make this a maruellous good estate and alwayes turne the best side outwarde and when men goe about to vrge the deformities thereof to the ende they mighte be remedied then you lay open the shame and nakednesse of it and make it greater than it is in deede For as I haue shewed before the Church standeth not so muche in neede of your reading ministers as you would make the worlde beleeue And although it be a great deformitie and sore plague of the Churche whiche you here speake of and confesse at vnwares yet you will let no man come neare to heale it There be some make a gayne by sores and sore legges and therefore they haue a medicine to keepe their woundes alwayes greene that they should not heale I hope you do not of purpose keepe the Churche in this estate but this I dare say that the chiefe of your gayne and of your honour consisteth and is grounded in the ruines of the Churche and therefore I desire you to tooke vnto it Io. Whitgifte I omit whatsoeuer you héere speake agaynst my person for I am purposed to absteine The causes of the lacke of able ministers from requiting you in like sorte onely I will answere for my selfe where you labour to slaunder me The cause of lacke of a sufficient number of méete ministers in this Church is neyther the religion professed nor the gouernment that is vsed nor yet the gouernours But partly the crueltie of the times past wherein numbers of méete ministers haue bin consumed partly the vn willingnesse of mē in this present time which haue not that zeale to enter into this calling that is to be wished and partly nay chiefly principally you your schismes which haue caused some to cast off their ministerie wholly some to forsake their pastorall charges and yet to kéepe their Prebendes and other liuings some to depraue the ministerie condemne it and by all meanes possible alienate as many from it as they can And therefore nothing that I confesse of the scarsitie of méete able ministers derogateth any thing eyther from the doctrine professed in this Church or frō the kinde of gouernment or the Magistrates but rather cōmendeth the same bicause notwithstanding al the former impediments yet hath it a number of excellent ministers doth continually bréed mo If any confession tende to the condemnation of any it is of you your adherents who haue more hindred slaundered the Gospel in this realme of England than the Papists eyther haue done or could possibly do And I am fully persuaded that one of the greatest deformities suffered in this Church is lacke of discipline towardes you who be so farre from healing any sore in the Church that the more you be suffered the greater doe you wounde it And in very déede the reformation you pretende is nothing but a méere confusion or rather subuersion bothe of the Churche and common wealthe also My honour and gaine is but verie small yet it is more than I am worthie of but I trust the tyme will come when as such boyling affections vttered in so spitefull a maner will be made manyfest and I pray God it be not imputed vnto you in that day If my houour and gayne be other than may stande with the good and prosperous estate of the churche I am readie to yelde it vp whensoeuer I shall by due authoritie be required In the meane tyme God be iudge betwixt you and me Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 51. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. But what if the estate of the Church be suche as you speake of that it will scarce yeeld three preaching Pastors and Bishops in some Diocesse may you therfore make reading ministers In deed if the Apostle had made this a councell only and no commaundement that Pastors of churches should be able to teache then your saying might haue bene borne But seyng that S. Paule hath commaunded expressedly that he should be able to teache and Tim. 1. 3. to conuince the gaynsayers I would learne of you gladly what necessitie there is whiche can Tit. 1. cause a man to breake the morall law of God to bring in a tradition of man You may as wel break any other commaundement of God for necessities sake as breake this being comprehended in the fyrst table And tosay that these that can only reade must be tolerated in the Church as ministers is to say bycause you can haue no Pastors in the Churches you will haue idolls for so will I not doubt to call them although through ignorance of that whiche they do some may be good men But yet in respect of the place that they occupie they are idolls for they stand for that and make shew of that
thought the doctrine of ceremonies to be conuenient Touching the great incommoditie and offence that you imagine to be in this apparell it is but your fansie which take y ◠apparel to be the cause of your nicenesse contempt disobedience cōtention such like remaining in you whē in deed it is nothing else but singularitie and preposterous zeale Wherfore that is to be remoued out of the hart rather than the apparel from the back To be shorte y t which you imagine of any opinion of the Religion in this aparel or superstition or any such lyke offence it is but a mere imagination to cloke couer the corruptions of the mynde before mentioned Chap. 5. the seuenth Diuision Answere to the Admonition Pag. 61. Sect. 1. I haue the rather set down these mens sayings at large bicause they be both pithie learned wholly to the cōfutation of your assertion Wherfore I conclude that a Christian Magistrate may reteine any ciuil politike or Ecclesiastical orders and rites of whom soeuer they wer inuēted or howsoeuer they haue bin abused so y t first they be not against the worde of God Secondly that Iustification and remission of synnes be not attributed vnto them Thirdly that the church be not troubled with the multitude of thē fourthly that they be not decreed as necessarie and not to be changed And last of all that men be not so tyed vnto them but that by occasion they may be omitted so that it be without offence and contempt T. C. Page 56. Sect. 4. And although they haue all these proporties whiche you recite yet if they bee not to edifying if not to God his glorie if not comely and agreeable to the simplicitie of the Gospell of Christ crucified they may not be established Io. Whitgifte It is sufficient if they perteyne to order and comelynesse as I haue before declared the iudgement whereof dothe not belong to euery priuate man but to suche onely as haue authoritie in the Churche to whose determination in suche matters all other of duetic are bound to submit themselues Chap. 5. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 62. Sect. 1. YEt one thing I must admonish you of that there is a difference A difference between worshipping of false gods and of the true God falsely to be made bewixt those things which were wholly dedicated to false gods and to be vsed in the worshipping of them and those things which were vsed in the false woorshipping of the true God for the Papistes herein differ from the Gentils that they acknowledge and confesse the true God and beleue the same articles of faith that we doe but yet worshyp him not aright nor beleue on hym in all poyntes as the worde of God prescribeth And therfore if thinges abused of the Gentiles and inuented by them maye bee vsed of Christians muche more may thinges inuented and abused by Papistes T. C. Page 56. Sect. 4. Concerning your distinction whereby you lessen the idolatrie of the Papistes I haue shewed the vanitie therof Io. Whitgifte And I haue answered whatsoeuer you haue there said but yet your reply in y t place will not serue euery circumstance of this place except you will say with y e Stoickes that peccata sunt paria all sinnes are equall Chap. 5. the ninth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 62. Sect. 1. But of this matter I mynde also to speake some thing in the second parte of this Admonition T. C. Page 56. Sect. 5. But of this matter you say you will speake againe In deede so you doe and againe wherin you confounde the memorie and vnderstanding of the Reader and declare your selfe not only ignorant of Aristotles rule of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is to speake of one thing generally and once for all but euen to be voyde of that order whiche men haue commonly by the naturall Logike of reason Neyther can you excuse your selfe in saying that the admonition giueth you so oftentimes occasion to speake of them and so to laye the fault vpon it for that it beyng written by diuets persons of the same matters wherof (a) A manifeste vntruth one knewe not of an others doing can not be blamed for the repetition of one thing twice when as you can not escape blame whiche myghte haue gathered easyly into one place that whiche is sayde of them in diuerse which thing although it be not so easy for me to do in your booke as it was for you to do in theirs yet I wil assay to doe it bothe in this and in all other poyntes that followe not thinking therby to bring this treatise of yours to any good order for that were to cast it newe againe and then you would complayne of your mind peruerted but that I might remedie this so great disorder which may be boone without chaunging any thyng of that which you haue set downe Io. Whitgifte I haue doone as you ought to haue doone if you had mente playnly for I haue folowed verbatim the booke that I confute in the same order that it is written which I thinke be that confuteth oughte to doe That the Admonition was written by dyuers persons the one not knowing of an others doing ▪ can not be true for both the partes haue one title they bée in one volume they were Printed in one letter at one tyme by one and the same Prynter and came abroade together neyther were they euer separated that I knowe or can vnderstande Moreouer this bewrayeth all and condemneth you for one that hath no conscience in wryting vntruthes that in the beginning of the Admonition mētion is made of both of these treatises in these woordes Two treatyses you haue heere ensuyng beloued in Christe whyche yee muste reade c. And in the ende of bothe these Treatises it is thus wrytten Weee haue thought good in the latter end of our booke for sundry consyderations to certifye you beloued brethren of the reasons that haue moued vs who are the authours of these treatyses to keepe backe oure names c. Fynally the order and maner of bothe these Treatises the stile the quotations c. doe manyfestly conuince you of false witnesse bearing but it is to vsuall with you I am not so cunning in Aristotle that I can be so bolde as to attribute that vnto hym whych is not to be founde in hym as you do in thys place for though he speake much of this rule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet hath he no such thing as you father vpon him in this place It is méete that he whyche wryteth a booke of any matters shoulde of one matter speake fully in one place but hée that confuteth muste followe his order whome hée confuteth Whyche if you hadde doone in my Booke as I haue doone in theyrs eyther woulde not youre vnfaithfull dealyng haue bin so muche or else must it sooner or easylier haue bin espied You re tauntes I leaue to your selfe that haue
is at all times necessary not in the respect of policie and gouernment in consideration whereof he hath the name of an Archbyshop Chap. 1. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 64. Sect. 3. 4. 5. The last (*) You 〈◊〉 that against your selfe nov ▪ which before you were glad to vse as a 〈◊〉 for your selfe refuge is that the Apostle made mention of those functions whiche haue to doe with the ministring of the word and sacraments and not of those whiche haue to do with order and discipline Speake in good earnest had the Apostles (a) Here he confuteth his owne shadow nothing to do with discipline and order with what face can you take away the raines of gouernment out of the Apostles handes and put them in the Archby shops and Archdeacons hands what a peruersnesse is this that the ministeries inuented by men should be preferred to all the ministeries appointed and commaunded of God The Apostles for sooth haue in common with the Archbyshops and Archdeacons the power of ministring of the worde and of the Sacraments of binding and losing and thus farre as good as the Archbyshops and Archdeacons But for discipline and order the Apostles haue nothing to doe but herein Archbyshops and Archdeacons are aboue them and better than they Io. Whitgifte You wonderfully forget your selfe for it is your owne distinction as it appeareth Page 64. li. 5. in the. 5. line of the same page of your booke and thereby you shifted off the obiection of Deacons and Elders I know no man that taketh the raines of gouernmente out of the Apostles hāds and giueth it to any to whome it is not due by the word of God But is your meaning that the Apostles should now execute it themselues else Quorsum bae Surely you are so full of passions that you forget the matter I knowe the Apostles had in their time togyther with the ministerie of the word and sacraments power to exercise ecclesiasticall discipline and order But truly I vnderstand not your meaning for neuer any such thing as you here fancie entred once into my cogitation I rather say that bycause in the Apostles there was ioyned the administration of discipline with the ministerie of the word and sacraments therefore it may be so likewise now in Archbyshops and Byshops For that authoritie of discipline and gouernment that the Apostles had in their time is now for the most part executed by Archbyshops and Byshops which is the ouerthrow of your whole assertion Chap. 1. the. 22. Diuision T. C. Pag. 64. Sect. vlt. Now sir if I would follow your vaine of making so many exclamations as oh the impudencie oh the insolencie with twentie other such great ohes you see (*) Indeede 〈◊〉 haue made your selfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sion I haue occasion both here and else where But I would not gladly declaime especially when I shoulde dispute nor make outcries in stead of reasons Io. Whitgifte Where haue I vsed these exclamations or what cause haue you so suddenly to burst into them at this time except it be to set some countenance vppon your euill fauoured reasons But I will let you alone in such toyes and suffer you to play with your selfe Chap. 1. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 1. But to come to this distinction I had thought before this time that the Apostles had bin the (*) Surely the man is in a dreame chiefe builders in setting vp the Church now I perceiue you make the archbyshops and Archdeacons the chiefe builders and the Apostles vnder carpenters or common masons to serue and to 1. Cor. 3 ▪ take the commaundement of the Archbyshop and Archdeacon And whereas it is saide that the ministeries which S. Paule speaketh of are in the words and sacraments binding and losing only and that there be other whiche are besides these occupied in the order and discipline of the Church of which number are Archbyshops and Archdeacons let vs marke a little what deepe diuinitie here is Io. Whitgifte Surely you wander you know not whether without doubt your mind whē you writte this was vpō some other thing than vpon my booke For wher haue I made this comparison betwixte the Apostles and Archbyshops or what haue I spoken sounding that way I would haue you to deale honestly and plainly If you meane the booke in latin whereof you after ward speake the words of that booke sounding any thing this way be these Archiepisiopi ab èpiscopis quoad ministerium non differunt omnes enim paripotestate docendi baptizandi ligandi soluendi praediti sunt sed quoad ordinem et politiam ordinis enim politiae causa quaedam vltra episcopos Archiepiscopis cencessa sunt Archbyshops differ not from byshops in respect of the ministerie for they are all endued with equall authoritie to teach to baptise to bind and lose but in respect of order and policie For some things are graunted to Archbyshops for order and policies sake aboue the byshops And further answering that place to the Ephesians it saith Apostolus eo in loco eos tantiòn ministr s ministeria enumerat quae in precibus verbo administratione sacramentorum versantur non eorum quae ad ordinem disciplinam instituuntur qualia sunt Archiepiscoporum Archidiaconorum The Apostle in that place doth only recite those ministers and ministeries which are occupied in prayer the word and the administration of the Sacraments not of them whiche are instituted for order and discipline suche as are the functions of Archbyshops and Archdeacons The which selfesame distinction for that place you vse Pag. 64. lin 5. in the beginning of the 64. Page of your bóoke these only words excepted qualia sunt Archiepiscoporum Archidiaconorum as I haue before shewed and your owne words declare And I am sure these words do not make the Archbyshops and Archdeacons chiefe builders and the Apostles vnder carpenters as it pleaseth you to collect but this is your modestie Chap. 1. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 2. And first of all I would gladly aske them with what aduise they hauelaide on a greater * What burden who hath laid it on ▪ burden and weight of the Archbyshops and Archdeacons shoulders than the Apostles were able to sustaine Io. Whitgifte When you haue told where they haue laid on this greater burden and waight or what the burden and waight is that you say they haue laid on or who they be that haue layde it on then shall your question be answered in the meane time let this suffice the reader that you do but forge matter to encrease your volumes and to sport your selfe Chap. 1. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 3. Secondarily I aske with what boldnesse and vppon the confidence of what giftes any man dare take vpon him both that which the Apostles did and more to Io. Whitgifte To this I answer as to the former Chap. 1. the.
adde ministeries they may also take away for those both belong to one authoritie (b) The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but they can not take away those ministeries that God hath placed in his Churche therefore they cannot adde to those that are placed in the Churche And this foundation I thought first to lay or euer I entred into M. Doctours not reasons but authorities not of God but of men in confuting of which there will fall forth also other arguments against both these offices of Archbyshop and Archdeacon Io. Whitgifte Your whole booke is for the moste parte buylded vpon that false founded argument The Replie grounded vpō the petition of the principle that is called Petitio principij For this will not be graunted vnto you which you haue so oftentimes repeated and wherevpon all your arguments are grounded that to appoynt Archbyshops or Archdeacons is to appoynt a new ministery It is as I tolde you before but to kéepe an order in the ministery and in the Churche and to execute that office of gouernment which the Apostles themselues did When Hierome sayde That for the auoyding of Schismes the ministers appoynted one among themselues to gouerne the rest Did he meane that they instituted a new ministerie A man may sée by this how vnable you are to defend your cause seing you are enforced to frame principles vnto your selfe agaynst the which you may reason that the ignorant reader may thinke your quarell to be iuste But nowe to your argument The Maior is not true for men may adde ministeries to those that be and breake not the will and commaundement of God bicause they may be helpes and furtheraunces to those ministeries that God hath appoynted But he can not take away such ministeries as God hath placed in his Churche to be perpetuall without breache of his will and commaundement Moreouer besides those ministeries that God hath appoynted in his woorde as necessary at all times there may be some added that be cōuenient for some times and yet the Churche that hath authoritie to adde these hath not the lyke authoritie to take awaye the other So that your Maior lacketh proofe Your Minor also is ambiguous for man can not take away those ministeries that God hath appoynted to be perpetuall in the Churche but he may take away those that be but temporall as occasion serueth If your foūdation be no sounder than this that you haue hitherto layde surely your buylding cannot long stande and M. Doctors authorities may well ynough encounter with all your reasons That the names of Metropolitane Archbishop c. be not Antichristian Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 65. Sect. 1. Firste therefore I proue that the names of Metropolitane and The antiquitie of Archbishops Archbishop c. be not Antichristian names that is names inuented by Antichrist but most aūciēt yea that they were in the Church lōg before the Gospell was publiquely embraced by any Prince or in any kingdome Polidore Virgil lib. 4. De inuentoribus rerum Cap. 12. saith that Clement in his boke entituled Compēdiarium Christianae religionis testifieth that the Apostle Peter did in euery Prouince appoynt one Archbyshop whom all other Byshops of the same prouince shoulde obey He sayth also that the same Archbishop was called Primas Patriarcha and Metropolitanus Peter was not Antichrist Ergo the name of an Archbishop is no Antichristian name T. C. Pag. 66. Sect. 4. 5. 6. 7. Pag. 67. Sect. 1. 2. Now I will come to the examining of your witnesses whereof some of them are so bored in the eares and branded in their foreheades that no man neede to feare any credite they shall gette before any iudge wheresoeuer or before whom soeuer they come but in the Romish courte and the Papistes onely excepted For to let go Polidore Uirgile bycause whatsoeuer he sayth he sayth of the credite of another let vs come to Clement which is the author of this you speake And what is he Is there any so blind that knoweth not that this was nothing lesse than Clement of whom S. Paule speaketh and which some thinke was the first Bishop of Rome ordeined by Peter and Phil. 4. Tertul. de praescript aduers. haeret not rather a wicked helhounde into whome the Lorde had sent Satan to be a lying spirite in his mouth to deceiue them for their vnthankful receyuing of the gospell And he must witnesse for the Archbishop a worthie witnesse For as all that Popish Hierarchie came out of the bottomlesse pit of hell so to vpholde the Archbishop the necke of it wherevpon the Romish monster standeth are raysed vp from hell bastards Clemens and Anacletus and indeede as it may appeare the very naturall sonnes of Satan and the sworne souldiours of Antichrist A man would haue thought that the Bishop of Salisburie M. Iuel had so pulled of the painting of the face of this Clement that all good men woulde haue had him in detestation so farre of would they haue bene to haue alledged out of him to proue any thing that is in controuersie The Bishop alledgeth both Eusebius and S. Hierome to proue that none of those woorkes In the replie to M. Hard. which go in his name are his and although the proofes be strong which the Bishop vseth beeing the witnesse of vnsuspected witnesses yet bicause the law although it allow two witnesses notwithstanding doth like the better of three I will set downe here also Ireneus which was a great while before them both and followed hard after the time of the true and vncounterfeyte Clement Li. 3. cap. 3. and therefore coulde best tell of him and of his wrytings and yet he maketh mention but of one Epistle which vpō occasion amongst the Corinthians he wrote to them Indeed in an other place of that booke he sheweth that it is verie probable that Clementalso eyther wrote or turned the Epistle to the Hebrues Nowe if that Epistle to the Counthes were extant we shoulde easily see by comparing those that are nowe in his name wyth that what a misshapen thing this is And if so be that Ireneus coniecture be good that Clement was the authour or interpreter of the Epstle to the Hebrues then what horrible iniurie is done to the holy Ghost while the same is supposed the wryter of thys booke to the Hebrues which is the authour of suche beggerie as thys Clement brought into the worlde And I pray you do you holde that it is the true Christian religion which that booke conteyneth Could none of these considerations driue you from the testimonie of this Clement It goeth verie harde with the Archbishop when these Clements and Anacletusses must be brought to vnderprop him But what if there be no such booke as this is which you name when you say in his booke intituled Compendiarium religionis Christianae it is like you know not him nor what he saith when you cannot tell so much as his name
one agaynst the other He that calleth an Archbishop a Bishop speaketh properly for so he is in the respecte of his ministerie and substance of his office the name of Archebishop he hathe onely in respecte of order and pollicie Archbishop and Bishop are members of one diuision as chiefe Iustice and Iustice is Euery chiefe Iustice is a Iustice but euery Iustice is not a chiefe Iustice euen so euery Archbishop is a Bishop but euery Bishop is not an Archbishop neyther is this suche a straunge diuision as you thinke it to be For Aristotle dyd in like maner deuide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Regnum Aristocratiam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is that which is commonly called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Chap. 2. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. 3. And yet I haue a further answere both to Erasmus and Uolusianus and whatsoeuer other haue written after this sorte that they spake and gaue titles to those men they wrote of not according to that which they were but according to the custome maner of that age wherin they wrote And so we may reade that Uincentius and Nicephorus writing of Uictor speake farre otherwise Vinc. 10. li. cap. 124. Nicep 4. li. cap. 38. of him than Eusebius doth which notwithstanding wrote of the same man whiche they did The one calleth Uictor the Pope of Rome (*) Nicephorus falsified and the other fayth that in glorie he passed all the Bishops before him which Eusebius neuer maketh any word of Euen so Uolusianus Erasmus liuing in the times when as they which were y e most esteemed in the ministerie were called archbishops call Titus and Dionisius Archebishops vpon whome depended the chiefe care of those Churches which they gouerned Io. Whitgifte This is no answere at all first bicause Erasmus woulde then haue giuen to Timothie the same title also secondly bicause Erasmus béeing a man of so singular knowledge and iudgement woulde not otherwyse than truely report of any man especially in suche a case and handling matters of diuinitie Thirdly bicause when he wrote there was neyther Bishop nor Archbishop at Creta as there was at Rome when Vincentius and Nicephorus writte And if this were true that you saye then shoulde Eusebius when he wrote of Victor haue termed him a Patriarke or an Archbishop or Metropolitane at the least For these names were vsuall in Eusebius his time But why doe you vntruely reporte of Nicephorus for in that booke and chapter he giueth vnto Victor no other name and title than the same that Eusebius dothe for he calleth him by the bare name of Victor without any other title neyther dothe he saye that in glorie he passed all the Bishops before him but this he sayth that the other Bishops which were with him did diswade him from excommunicating the Bishops of Asia and addeth Et acrius seueriusquecum illo qui gloria eos anteiret egerunt They delt more sharply and seuerely with him that excelled them in glorie Therefore he saythe that he did excell in glorie those Bishops that were then not those which were before him But what is this to your purpose If he had giuen vnto Victor any other title than was vsuall when he liued dothe it therfore followe that Erasmus and Volusianus had done so in like maner will you answere suche learned and notable mens authoritie with so vayne and childishe coniectures Chap. 2. the. 13. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 65. Sect. 4. Pag. 66. Sect. 1. I omitte Anacletus a godly Bishop and Martyr who liued Anno Domini 85. whiche in his Epistle Tom. 1. conci diuers times maketh mention of Archbishops Patriarkes Primates Metropolitanes and sayth that S. Iames which was called Iustus was the first Archbishop of Ierusalem I omitte also Anicetus who liued Anno Domini 155. whiche likewyse in his Epistle maketh mention of Archebishops Bicause these Epistles are not without iust cause suspected eyther to be none of theirs or else in diuers poyntes corrupted T. C. Page 69. Sect. 3. There followeth Anacletus an other of these witnesses which must depose that the name of an Archebishop is not Antichristian of whom as of Clement that went before Anicetus which followeth after the common prouerbe may be verified Aske my fell we it I be a theefe And althoughe the Answerer be ashamed of him and sayth therfore he will omit him yet euen (a) This is 〈◊〉 s will appea in the ende very neede driueth him to bring him in and to make him speake the vttermost he can And this 〈◊〉 man sayth that Iames was the first Archbishop of Ierusalem but Eusebius sayth Iames was Ibi. 2. 23. Bishop not Archbishop of Ierusalem and appoynted by the Apostles And in the thirde booke (*) It is the ▪ 〈◊〉 chapter 22 ▪ chapter he sayth that the Apostles did appoynt after his death Simeon the sonne of Cleophas Bishop of Ierusalem And Ireneus in his fourth booke 63. chapter saythe that the Apostles in all places appoynted Bishops vnto the Churches whereby it may appeare what an idle dreame it is of Clement Uolusianus and Anacletus eyther that Peter dyd this by his owne authoritie or that the primitiue Church was euer stayned with these ambicious titles of Patriarke primate Metropolitane or Archbishop when as the stories make mention that throughout euery Churche not euery prouince not by Peter or Paule but by Apostles a Bishop not an Archbishop was appoynted Io. Whitgifte If they be the A acletus or Clemens or Anicetus that commonly they are taken for and these writings were theirs vncorrupted then were their witnesse sufficient althoughe they were Bishops of Rome But I neyther will defende their writings neyther doe I thinke them to be worthy any defense onely I require but that libertie of vsing them that no learned man refuseth when they serue his turne Master Caluine doth alleage this Anacletus his authoritie to proue that the peoples consent Caluin M. F xe was required in y e appoynting of ministers Instit. cap. 8. Sect. 61. So doth M. Foxe tom 1. pag. 12. who writeth thus VVherfore as we must needes graunt the Bishop of Rome to be called a Metropolitane or an Archbishop by the Councell of Nice so we will not greatly sticke in this also to haue him numbred with Patriarkes or Primates whiche title seemed in olde tyme to be common to moe Cities than to Rome both by the Epistle of Anacletus of Pope Stephanus and Pope Iulius and Leo. c. Master Iewell also himselfe dothe vse his authoritie in that sorte that I doe But what néede you be so curious who haue so often alleaged the Canons of the Apostles and in your 95. page you vse the authoritie of Higinus or Pelagius as greate a counterfeite as this Anacletus is I speake not this to winne any credite to Anacletus his M Iewell Pag. 95. sec. 4 Epistles or decrées but to auoyde your cauils and
action ended had no more authoritie than the rest Io. Whitgifte If you had read any auncient storie or father yea if you had but perused M. Caluines Institutions the. 8. Chapter or any writer intreating of this matter you would neuer haue vttered this vaine coniecture nor shewed so manifest a token of greate ignorance and no reading For it shall appeare by sufficient testimonie that neyther the name nor office of an Archbyshop was any thing at all straimge in this time And the authors of the Centuries Cent. 4. can tell you that Ambrose himselfe was Metropolitanus Ambrose a Metropolitane Cent. 4. cap. 10 plurium coniunctarum ecclesiarum administratione fungens A Metropolitane gouerning many Churches adioyning together Your coniecture that this Archbishop should be no other than he which for the time ruled the action wherin Byshops were ordeined and after the action ended had no more authoritie than the rest is a méere phansie of your owne contrarie to all authoritie and withoute any grounde or similitude of reason and yet you often repeate it and make it the foundation of this your building But let vs heare your coniectures Chap. 2. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 4. And I am moued so to thinke First bicause it is not like that one onely ordeyned Byshops being contrarie to the olde Canons of the best Councels but that there were other and that this whō Ambrose calleth Archbyshop did gather the voyces c. Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed before that it was not so strange at this time for the Byshop alone to ordeine Ministers And yet Ambrose in this place signifieth that the people had Ambrose somewhat to doe in this matter for he calleth them populum nugacem indoctum qui talem sibi asciuerunt sacerdotem a people that trifeleth and is vnlearned that hath gotten vnto them such a priest But I pray you where is now your distinction betwixt election ordination For Ambrose speaketh in this place of ordeyning and not of electing If you wyll néedes so distinguishe them that they maye not bée at any tyme nor in any place confounded then haue you answered youre selfe here and wyth one coniecture ouerthrowne an other But howesoeuer it is coniectures can not preuayle agaynst so manyfest a truthe being so silly coniectures For tell mée where you euer redde that he was called an Archbishop that did only gather the voyces or that this name was attributed to any during the action only and no longer This is verie newe Diuinitie vnhearde of in any good Authour that I haue readde or can heare of Chap. 2. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 5. Secondly bycause it was verie vnlyke that there was any absolutely aboue S. Ambrose in those partes where he complayneth of euill bishops or ministers made Io. Whitgifte Why to whom or for whom did Ambrose write this booke for his owne prouince or Diocesse only therein are you deceyued that you thinke Ambrose to haue written this booke for his owne Prouince onely when he writte it to profite the whole Churche as it may appeare in the fyrst Chapter of that Booke Neither doth he complaine of suche euill Bishoppes or ministers as were vnder him for then should he haue complayned of himselfe béeyng theyr Metropolitane but of suche he complayneth as were in other places and Prouinces as may be séene by these wordes of his Ita vt videas in Ecclesia passim quos non merita sed pecuniae ad Episcopatus De dig Sacer cap. 5. ordinem prouexerunt So that a man maye see euery where in the Churche suche as are promoted to the order of a Bishop not by desertes but by money and therefore this coniecture is soone answered Chap. 2. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 6. Thirdly for that Ambrose in an other place which you after cite deuidyng all the Church into the cleargie and laytie dothe subdeuide the cleargie into Byshoppes Elders and Deacons and therefore it is not lyke that there was any which had any continuall function of archebyshoppe But as he was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or leader of the daunce which commeth fyrst and after commyng in agayne in the seconde or thyrde place is no more so called so that bishop was called Archebishop which for the time present did gather the voyces of the rest of the bishops which he by and by layde downe with the dissoluyng of the meetyng And that thys is not my coniecture only that there was no ordinarye or absolute Archebishop (*) Where or which centurie let the Centuries be seene (a) Vntruth whych alledge that place of Ambrose to proue that the office of an archebishop was not then come into the Churche which was foure hundred yeares after Christ and more also Io. Whitgifte This is a dauncing deuise in déede withoute any shadow of truthe as it maye appeare by that whiche already is alleadged and shall do more and more by that which followeth You are maruellous circumspect in your quotations least you shoulde be tripped and therefore you saye let the Centuries be seene but you tell not where Surely you doe verie vntruely reporte the Centuries for I haue redde them where they doe alleadge that place of Ambrose and there is not to be founde any suche matter but the cleane contrarie as is to be séene in that place Cent. 4 cap. 7. by you alleadged of the fourth Cent. the wordes be these Episcopi Metropolitani dicebantur à praecipuis seu primarijs ciuitatibus sicut Basilium Metropolitanū Capadocū Zozomenus vocat lib. 3. cap. 16. Et Archiepiscopi qualem Seleuciae fuisse Simeonem idem retulit lib. 2. cap. 8. Patriarcha totius alicuius prouinciae diceba ur Episcopus vt Socrates indica Lib. 5. cap. 8. Bishoppes and Metropolianes were named of the chiefe and princip ll Cities as Zozomenus calleth Basile the Metropolitane of Cappadocia lib. 3. cap. 16. and Archebishoppes suche as he reporteth that Simeon was of Seleucia lib. 2. cap. 8. Patriarke of some whole prouince was called a Bishop as Socrates sheweth lib. 5. cap. 8. Wherefore it is too much boldnesse in you to auouche so manyfest vntruths Neyther is it any maruel though you quote not the places for forgerie séeketh corners Forgerie seeketh corn rs And although that whiche hath bin hytherto alleadged out of the Councells of Nice and Antioche with the iudgemente of so manie learned men interpretyng the same might serue to perswade any reasonable man that the office and name of Archebishoppe and Metropolitane is bothe of greate antiquitie and not for one action onely or a dauncyng office as you woulde haue it but fixed and permanent yet bycause I haue to doe wyth quarellers before I goe any further in confuting I will 〈◊〉 downe the iudgement of other aunciente and famous wryters also who allowe bothe of these names and offices And fyrste I will recite suche as haue the names expressed
saith on thys sorte So that b M Nowell will wi esse against you First booke against Dor man 25. 〈◊〉 when he speaketh meanyng Cyprian of one Byshop one Iudge in the Churche for the time or of the Byshop which is one and ruleth the Churche absolutely he meaneth euery Byshop in hys owne Diocesse without exception if he speake specially he meaneth the Bishop of the citie or Diocesse whereof he intreateth whether it be the Byshop of Rome Carthage or any other place M. Foxe also expoundeth this of euery Byshop within his owne Churche or Diocesse You Fol. 93. heare the iudgement of these three writers that cannot picke out neyther the name nor the office of an Archbyshop out of Cyprians place and yet I thinke you will not denie but these were learned and godly writers Nowe I haue shewed you three I aske once againe of you one godly and learned writer that expoundeth it as you doe And by this time I suppose all men vnderstande what a smallfriend S. Cyprianis either to the name or office of an Archbyshop Let vs heare whether Hierome make any more for the Archbyshop then did Cyprian Io. Whitgifte M. Iewell Byshop of Sarisburie expounding the place of Cyprian in the fourth article M. Iewell 5. Diuision 228. page of his first booke hath these wordes Vpon occasion hereof he sheweth meaning Cyprian what hurte and confusion of sectes and scismes ensueth in any prouince or diocesse whereas the Byshops authoritie and ecclesiasticall discipline is despised I pray you what call you that Byshop that hath gouernement of a prouince Is he not a Metropolitane or Archbyshop and doth not my L. of Sarisbury as well speake of a prouince as he doth of a diocesse I do not deny but that Cyprians words may be fitly applyed to euery Byshop in his diocesse but is the Archbyshop therefore secluded seing he of whome Cyprian did write was a Metropolitane or Archbyshop That whiche is the office of the Archbyshop in his prouince is also the office of a Byshop in his diocesse and therefore that whiche is spoken of the prouince in respecte of the Archbyshop is also spoken of the Diocesse in respecte of the Byshop And pag. 230. he saith that vniuersa fraternitas is taken for one whole particular Idem brotherhoode within one prouince or diocesse so that your firste witnesse testifieth with me else would he not haue named a prouince M. Nowell fol. 22. 23. 24. doth expounde this place of the authoritie of euery Byshop M. Nowell in his owne Diocesse which is sufficient for me and is as much against you as can be for you would haue no Byshops ouer Diocesses but only pastors in seuerall townes That whiche he speaketh of a Byshop in his Diocesse he also meaneth of an Archbyshop in his Prouince whose both name and office he doth allow as it is manyfest in these wordes of his in his thirde booke against Dorman fol. 320 where he answering Idem this question of Dormans whether he will condemne the whole Church for making of Archbishops saith thus I answere I much commend the Churche for so doing so farre of is it that I will condemne the whole Church therfore But what shal I neede to vse any circumstances seing he doth most euidently apply this place of Cyprian to that purpose which you wil not acknowledge yea euen vnto the office of an Archbyshop in his Prouince for thus he writeth fol. 33. of his firste booke speaking of this epistle of Cyprian to Cornelius and confuting Dormans argument taken out of it for the Popes supremacie whiche is grounded vpon this place Non aliunde haereses obortae sunt c. Concerning the auoyding and quieting of schismes and troubles in the Churche VVe saye that as the seuerall Kings of euery kingdome the seuerall gouernours of euery countree and cittie c. are able to ouersee their seuerall charges and to keepe their people in ciuill order and peace so are the seuerall Byshops of euery Diocesse and the seuerall chiefe Prelates of euery Prouince able to auoide or to appease if they ryse al Schismes and troubles ecclesiasticall as S. Cyprian out of whome this reason is borowed and falsely wrested by them to an other purpose doth most plainely teach saying thus Cum statutum sit omnibus nobis c. What call you chiefe prelates of euery Prouince Be they not Archbyshops Likewise fol. 60. 61. in the same booke speaking of this and such like places he saith And further whatsoeuer M. Dorman eyther out of Deutero ▪ or any other place of Scripture doth vntruely apply to the proofe of the Supremacie of one head to witte the Byshop of Rome the same doth S. Cyprian M. Dormans owne vsuall witnesse euerie where alleage for the proofe of the superiorite of euerie Byshop in his owne Diocesse and for the obedience due vnto him there he doth neuer apply it as doth M. Dorman to the Supremacie of one Byshop ouer all other but rather against such supremacie of one it agreeth very well with the estate of the lewes that as they beyng one nation had one chiefe Prieste so is it good lykewise that euery Christian nation haue their chiefe Priest or Byshop it agreeth not that bycause the Iewes one nation had one highe Prieste to gouerne them in doubtes therefore all nations throughout the worlde shoulde haue one high Priest ouer all other for not onely the vnlikelyhood betwene these two but the impossiblitie of the latter is most euident The words of M. Foxe in that place speaking against the Papisticall interpretation M Foxe Tom. 1. fol. 93. of Cyprians wordes be these when their meaning is otherwyse howe that euery one catholike Church or Diocesse ought to haue one Byshop ouer it whyche also iustifyeth my interpretation For if it be vnderstanded of one Byshop ouer one Diocesse then is it in lyke maner of one Archbyshop ouer one Prouince For the reason is all one and you denie them both alike For you would haue no Bishops but in seueral Parishes Nowe therefore you sée that euen these authors whom you would abuse against me doe make wholy and fully against you and with me For they confesse the two places of Cyprian to be ment of Cornelius and of himselfe who were both Archbyshops and Metropolitanes and had ample iurisdiction especially Cyprian as I haue declared And M. Fexe hymselfe Tom. 1. Fol 21. sayth that the sea of Rome was a Patriarchall Idem sea appoynted by the primitiue Church and the Bishop therof an Archbishop limited within his owne bordering Churches so that the one place beyng ment of Cornelius Archbyshop of Rome the other of Cyprian Archbyshop of Carthage for so they were in déede though they were not in those places so called S. Cyprian may well be sayde in both places to speake of an Archbyshop though he expresse not his name And that which is there spoken of
recited Io. Whitgifte Iames was byshop of Ierusalem and in authoritie aboue all other ministers there Bishops at Ierusalem in the Apostles time Eusebius lib. 2. cap. 23. Eusebius so reporteth of him out of Egesippus who liued immediatly after y e Apostles time his wordes out of Egesippus be these Ecclesiam gubernandam post Apostolos Iacobus frater Domini accepit Iames the brother of the Lorde had the gouernment of the Churche after the Apostles Lib. 2. Cap. 23. And in the beginning of that chapter Eusebius speaking of this Iames sayeth thus Cui Hierosolymis ab Apostolis Episcopalis sedes concredita fuerat to whom the Byshops seat at Ierusalem was committed by the Apostles In the first chapter of that booke he sayeth out of Clement that Peter and Iohn after the ascension of Christe Constituerunt Iacobum Iustum Hierosolymorum Episcopum did appoynt Iames the Lib. 2. Ca. 1. Iust Bishop of Hierusalem The same thing do all Ecclesiasticall histories and wryters that make any mention of this matter affirme of him After Iames was Simeon the sonne of Cleop as appoynted Byshop there as the same Eusebius reporteth lib. 3. cap. 11. Idem and lib. 4 cap. 22. Therfore you are greatly deceyued in saying that there was no one ouer the rest at Ierusalem although if there had bene none yet would it not haue serued your turne bicause the Apostles as yet beyng aliue this office of Byshops was lesse néedefull But it is certayne that they placed Byshops in all great and famous Churches after they had planted them as Zuinglius sayeth in his Ecclesiastes and auncient authors do testifie Linus was Byshop of Rome as Eusebius witnesseth Lib. 3. cap. 2. and he liued in Other bishops in the apostles time Eus. Li. 3. cap. 2. 4. the Apostles time Timothie byshop at Ephesus Titus at Creta Dyonisius Areopagit at Athens c. as he also wryteth in the same booke cap. 4. But this thing is so manifest and so well knowne to all that read Ecclesiasticall histories that I am sure they will maruayle at your grosse ouersight in denying the same Wherefore Ieromes distinction standeth Chap. 3. the. 37. Diuision T. C. Pag. 83. Lin. 2. But agaynst this distinctiō of S. Ierome I will vse no other reason than that which Ierome vseth in the same epistle to Euagrius Ierome in that Epistle taketh vp very sharply the Archdeacon Ierome speaketh not in that place of an Arch deacon but of a deacon that he preferred himselfe before the Elder and the reason is bycause by the Scripture the Deacon is inferior vnto the Elder Now therfore Ierome himself confessing that by the scripture a Bishop and an Elder are equall by Ieromes owne reason the byshop is to be sharply reprehended bycause he lifteth himselfe aboue the Elder Io. Whitgifte Without doubt you forget your selfe else would you not reason in this manner The Archdeacon is inferior to the elder therefore the byshop is not superior to the elder in any respect I sée no sequele in this reason neither yet any likelyhoode Besides that you vntruely report of Hierome for hée speaketh of a Deacon and not of an Archedeacon But it is your manner so to deale suerly I marueyle that you will vtter so manifest vntruthes But if Hierome should so saye yet is your argument nothing for though an Archedeacon be inferiour to a minister whome you call Elder yet doth not that proue but that there mayé bée degrées among the ministers and that the chéefest of them in authoritie may be called a Bishop as Hierome also in that Epistle declareth And although Hierome confesse that by the scripture Presbyter and Episcopus is all one as in déede they be quoad ministerium yet doth hée acknowledge a superioritie of the Bishop before the minister For besides these places that I haue alleaged in my Aunswere to the Admonition he saith thus in the same Epistle Presbyter Episcopus aliud Ad Euagr. tatis aliud dignitatis est nomen the one is a name of age and the other of dignitie And a litle after In Episcopo Presbyter continetur the Elder or minister is conteyned in th Bishop Therefore no doubte this is Ieromes minde that a Bishop in degrée and dignitie is aboue the minister though he be one the selfe same with him in the office of ministring the word and sacraments and therfore he sayth presbyter continetur in episcopo bicause euerie Bishop is presbyter but euery presbyter is not Bishop Chap. 3. the. 38. Diuision T. C. Pag. 83. Lin. 8. But what helpeth it you that there was a Bishop of Alexandria which vrge an Archbishop or what auantageth it you that there was one chief called a Bishop in euery seuerall congregation which wold proue that there ought to be one Bishop chief ouer a thousand congregations What coulde haue bin brought more strong to pull downe the Archbishop out of his throne then that which Ierom faith there when he affirmeth that the Bishop of the obscurest village or hamlet hath as great authoritie and dignitie as the Bishop of Rome Erasmus did see this and sayd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is * But in the same place speaking in earnest he a firmeth a muche as I r quire testingly that Hierome spake that of the Bishops of his tyme but if the had seene howe the Metropolitanes of our age excell other Bishops he woulde haue spoken otherwise And what could haue ben more fit to haue confuted the large dominion and superioritie of our realme than that that Ierome sayeth when he appointeth the Bishops sea in an vplandish town or in a poore village or hamlet (a) Vntrue declaring therby that in euery town there was a Bishop and that the Bishop that he speaketh of differeth nothing at all from an elder but that the Bishop had the ordeyning of y e ministers whervpon it doth appere which I promised to shew that by this place of Ierome there is neither name of Archbishop nor so much as the shadowe of his authoritie and that the Bishoppes whiche are nowe haue besides the name no similitude almoste with the Bishopes that were in Ieromes tyme. As for his reason ad Luciferanos it is the same which he hath ad Euagr. and to Titus and is alreadie answ red Io. Whitgifte If this be true that you say why haue you then hitherto sought so to deface this worthie writer why did you not in the beginning tell vs that this saying óf Ierome made nothing against you bicause he only speaketh of Pastors in seuerall parishes and not of one to haue charge and gouernment ouer one whole dioces But full Ieromes bishop differeth from an elder in dignitie and rule Hier. in Tit. 1. well knew you the vanitie of this your fansie how vnlyke it is to stande with Ieromes words For in his cōmentaries vpon y e epistle to Titus he sayth that Postque v usquisque
foresayde Aërius he proueth his errour aud the errour of those that heare him by this that the Apostle writte to Priests and Deacons and dyd not write to Byshops And to the Bishop he sayth neglect not the gifte that is in thee whiche thou hast receyued by the handes of the Presbyterie And agayne in another place he writeth to Bishops and Deacons wherefore sayth he a Bishop and a Priest is all one and he knoweth not whiche is ignorante of the sequele of the truthe and hathe not read profounde stories that when the preaching was but newely begonne the holy Apostle writte according to the state of things as they were then for where there were Bishops appoynted he writte to Bishops and Deacons for the Apostle coulde not by and by at the first appoynte all things for there was neede of Priests and Deacons bicause by those two ecclesiasticall matters maye be complete And where there was not any founde worthy a Bishopricke there the place remayned without a Bishop but where there was neede and worthy men to be Bishops there were Bishops appoynted And when there was not so many that there coulde be founde amongst them meete to be Priests they were content with one Bishop in an appoynted place but it is vnpossible for a Bishop to be without a Deacon and the holy Apostle had a care that Deacons shoulde be where the Bishop was for the ministerie So dyd the Churche receyue the fulnesse of dispensation suche was then the state and condition of the places For euery thing had not the perfection from the beginning but in processe of time those things whiche were necessarie to perfection were added c. The Apostle teacheth who is a Bishop and who is a Priest when he sayth to Timothie that was a Bishop chide not a Priest but exhorte him as a father what should a Bishop haue to doe not to chide a Priest if he had not authoritie aboue a Priest As he also sayth agayne agaynst a Priest admitte no accusation sodenly without two or three witnesses and he sayde not to any Priest admit no accusation agaynst a Bishop neyther did he write to any Priest that he shoulde not rebuke a Bishop Thus mayest thou sée good Reader that it is not for nought that T. C. so stormes agaynst Epiphanius and so vnreuerently vseth him But I wyll giue him as muche cause to deale in like maner with Augustine who August ad Quod-vult in this matter fully ioyneth with Epiphanius and in that booke of his de haeresibus ad quod-vult-deum quoted by T. C. in his margent attributeth this also as heresie to the sayde Acrius adding that the cause of this and other of his heresies was bicause he himselfe was not made Bishop Chap. 3. the. 59. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 4. That this worde presbyter in this place of the Apostle signifieth a minister of the worde bothe Ambrose Caluine and other learned writers declare T. C. Page 87. Sect. 4. And whereas M. Doctor citeth Ambrose Caluine and other godly wryters to proue that the minister is vnderstanded by the worde Elder or Presbyter he keepeth his olde wonte by bringing stickes into the wood and prouing alwayes that which no man denieth and yet with the minister of the worde he also vnderstandeth the Elder of the Churche whiche ruleth and dothe not labour in the worde But therein is not the matter for I doe graunt that by Presbyter the minister of the word is vnderstanded yet nothing proued of that which M. Doctor would so fayne proue Io. Whitgifte I adde this interpretation that the Reader may vnderstande Timothie to haue authoritie ouer Bishops and Ministers of the worde least you by cauilling shoulde shifte off this place with your signification of Seniors whiche were not ministers of the worde as you say All this whyle haue I looked for the performance of your promise to proue that That Timothie was Bishop Timothie and Titus were no Bishops But bicause I perceyue that you are content to forget it I will héere perfourme mine least I fall into the same faulte with you repeating only that which I haue before added to my answere in the 2. edition least I shoulde put the Reader bothe to coste and paynes in searching for it there First therefore that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus the whole course of the 1 The course of the Epistle two Epistles written vnto him declareth wherein is conteyned the office and duety of a Bishop and diuers precepts peculiarly perteyning to that function as it is manyfest neyther were those Epistles written to Timothie for the instruction of other onely but for the instruction of him selfe also as the whole course of bothe the Epistles doe declare and all learned expositours confesse Secondly the subscription of the seconde Epistle is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 The subscrip tion The seconde Epistle was written from Rome to Timothie who was ordeyned the first Bishop of the Churche of Ephesus when Paule appeared before the Emperour Nero the seconde time Whiche althoughe it be lefte out in some Gréeke Testamentes yet is it in the moste the best and the auncientest yea almoste in all neyther is this a sufficient answere to saye that the subscription of some one or two Epistles séeme to be vntrue therefore this is vntrue For the subscription as it is no doubt of great antiquitie so is it consonant to al olde auncient authoritie Thirdly the vniuersal consent of histories conclude him to be Bishop at Ephesus 3 Consent of hystories Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 4. saythe that Timothie was the first Bishop of Ephesus Dorotheus who lyued in Dioclesians time wryteth that Paule made him Bishop of Ephesus Nicephorus lib. 2. cap. 34. sayth that Paule made him Bishop of Ephesus before he writ his first Epistle vnto him Hierome in catalog scripto Ecclesi sayth that he was made Bishop of Ephesus by Paule Isidorus de Patribus noui Testamenti sayth also that he was Bishop of Ephesus Antoninus parte 1. titulo 6. cap. 1. affyrmeth the same oute of Polycrates So dothe Supplementum chroni So dothe also Volaterane lib. 20. where he calleth him Praesulem Ephesinum And all the Histories that I haue read whiche make any mention of him Historia Magdel centu 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. in vita Ioan. Euang. hathe these words Constat Paulum Ephesinae ecclesiae Timotheum dedisse pastorem It is certayne that Paule appoynted Timothie Pastor of the Churche of Ephesus Surely it is the generall consente of all hystories that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Fourthly the fathers affirme the same 4 Content of fathers Dionisius Areopagita so called of some men who liued in the Apostles time wryteth his booke De diuinis nominibus to Timothie Bishop of Ephesus Epiphanius lib. 3. tom 1. affirmeth that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Ambrose sayth the same in his Preface to the first Epistle written to Timothie Chrysostome in
Timothie was an Euangelist Ergo he was not a Bishop This argumente is very féeble in euery The maior false parte For first the maior is vtterly false for those offices named by Paule were not so distinct but that diuers of them may concurre in one man as maye easily be proued Paule was an Apostle and also a Doctor 2. Timoth. 1. Matthew and Iohn béeing Apostles were also Euangelists as the consent of al writers doth testifie Timothie was according to M. Beza his iudgement both an Euangelist and also a prophet Looke his notes in the fourth chap. of the first to Timothie Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesiastes sayth that an Euangelist is nothing else but a Bishop or a pastor as it is manyfest sayth he by the wordes of Paule whiche he speaketh to Timothie saying opus fac Euangelistae and Timothie at that tyme when Paule writte this Epistle vnto him was a Bishop And therefore it is certayne that according to Faule his sentence the office of an Euangelist and of a Bishop is all one These be the very words of Zuinglius Bullinger expounding this place in the fourth to the Ephe. hath these words There is no man whiche seeth not these names to be confounded and one to be taken for an other for an Apostle is also a Prophete a Doctor an Euangelist a Minister and a Bishop and a Bishop is an Euangelist and a Prophet A Prophet is a Doctor a Minister and an Euangelist Therefore the Apostle Paule by these sundrie names dothe signifie these diuers giftes which God hath bestowed vpon his Churche to saluation And in that he so often vseth this disiunction alios atque alios he hath signified that all giftes are not giuen to one man but that diuers men haue diuers giftes of the spirite wherof he hath spoken more in the. 12. to the Rom. and the. 1. to the Cor. 12. chapter Hitherto Bullinger Pellicane in the same place is of the same iudgement These offices therefore or giftes maye well concurre in one man so that the maior is false and this conclusion followeth not Timothie was an Euangelist Ergo he was no Bishop The minor which is this Timothie was an Euangelist is very doubtfull For The minde doubtfull first it may be doubted what an Euangelist is The common opinion of old writers and also of diuers late writers is that those were properly called Euangelists which writte the Gospels Other say that he is an Euangelist whiche preacheth the Gospell Some say that he was an Euangelist that was occupied in teaching the people playnly and simply Caluine and some other thinke that they were next vnto the Apostles in degree and helpers of them and suche as supplied their office oftentimes Diuers other opinions there are of Euangelists and scarse two agree in one opinion touching the office of an Euangelist The moste saye whiche also the etymologie of the name dothe importe that those were Euangelistes whiche eyther preached or writte the Gospell Sainct Augustine in his seconde booke contra Faustum Manichae wryteth héereof on this sorte Narratores originis factorum dictorum passionum domini nostri Iesu Christi propriè dicti sunt Euangelistae They are properly called Euangelistes which are the declarers of the birthe deedes sayings and sufferings of our Lord and sauiour Iesus Christ Which may be done both by preaching and writing the Gospell as I sayde before Now if Timothie be an Euangelist bicause he preached the Gospell there is no cause why he may not be a Bishop also And it is certayn that when Paule sayd vnto him do the worke of an Euangelist he ment the preaching of the Gospell If an Euangelist be taken in any other significatiō how can it be proued that Timothie was an Euangelist For this proueth it not fac opus Euangelistae a man may do the worke of an Euangelist though he be not an Euangelist a man may doe the worke of a pastor though he be not a pastor To be short the conclusion is not necessarie howsoeuer the premisses be true for The conclu sion not necessary although it should be graūted that bothe the maior and minor were true yet the conclusion dothe not followe for Timothie might first be an Euangelist and after a Bishop as Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesiastes sayth That Philip the Euangelist beeing a Deacon was afterwarde Bishop and pastor of Cesarea Iames the yonger beeing an Apostle as Hierome and all the olde fathers doe testifie was after Bishop of Ierusalem and there remayned and dyuers of the Apostles when they lefte off going from place to place became in the ende Bishops and remayned in one place as it appeareth in olde hystories So that although one man could not be bothe an Euangelist and a Bishop at one time and if it be graunted that Timothie was an Euangelist yet doth it not proue but that he was a Bishop also But certayne it is that one man at one time might be both an Euangelist and a Bishop and most certayne it is that Timothie was a Bishop howe certayne soeuer it be whether he were an Euangelist or no. But héere it may be sayde that Timothie no more returned to Ephesus after he had bin the seconde time with Paule at Rome and therefore not to be like that he was B shop there This argumente is onely coniecturall and of no force to proue any suche matter Howbeit if we will credite stories wherby in such cases we must be directed it is certayne that Timothie returned to Ephesus there dyed Dorotheus sayth that he died at Ephesus and was there buried Polycrates testifieth that he was stoned to death at Ephesus Isidorus in his booke de Patribus noui Testamenti writeth that he was buried at Ephesus in the mount Pyon Symeon Metaphrastes testifieth the same Nicephorus li. 10. ca. 〈◊〉 testifieth that Iulian the Apostara did tormēt one Artemius for translating the bones of Andrewe Luke and Timothie from Patra Achaia and Ephesus to Constantinople But it is certayne that Andrew was crucified at Patra by Aegeas the Proconsull and auncient writers testifie that Luke was buried in Achaia therfore the bones that were brought from Ephesus must néedes be Timothies Héereby it may appeare that Timothie not onely returned from Rome to Ephesus but also continued there euen to his death And therefore certayne it is that he was Bishop at Ephesus But nowe to my purpose Chap. 3. the. 60. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. vlt. Ignatius who was S. Iohn his scholer and lyued in Chrystes Ignatius time in his Epistle ad Trallianos speaketh thus of the authoritie of a Bishop ouer the reste Quid aliud est Episcopus quà m quidam obtinens principatum The bishops uthoritie potestatem supra omnes VVhat is a Bishop but one hauing povver and rule ouer all And in his Epistle ad Smyrnenses he writeth on this sorte Honora quidem Deum vt
of a mayster which is farre otherwise here (*) So is the condition of a good seruant vnder a good master muche better than the condition of an vnruly sonne vnder a wise father For the condition of many seruaunts vnder their maysters is much more free than the condition of a Minister vnder his Bishop And afterwarde he sheweth wherein that authoritie or dignitie of the Bishop ouer the Minister lyeth that is in exhorting of him in chyding of him ▪ as he doth the lay people and yet he will haue also the Minister although not with suche authoritie after a modest sort to do the same vnto the Bishop And so he concludeth that they reteyne these orders notwithstanding the Anabaptistes Nowe let the reader iudge whether Hemingius be truely or faythfully alledged or no or whether Hemingius do say that they haue in their Church Archbishoppes Primates Metropolitanes Archdeacons or whether the Byshoppes in the Churches of Denmarke are any thing like ours For I 〈◊〉 omitte that he speaketh there agaynst all pompe in the Ministerie all worldly superioritie or ghnesse bycause I * And therefore you cu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sentences loue not to wryte out whole pages as M. Doctor doth out of other mens wrytings to helpe to make vp a booke Io. Whitgifte Hemin in that very place quoted in your margēt hath first these words Praeterea cū hic c tus c. Furthermore seing this society is ruled by the word of god there are in it two sorts of men that is to say the preachers of the worde and their hearers which do reuerence and Hemingius alloweth distinction of degrees in the ministerie loue one another as fathers and children But in the Ministers there is great diuersitie for although the authoritie of all Ministers in respect of spirituall regiment is all one for of externall discipline shall be spoken in the proper place yet there are diuerse orders and degrees of honour and dignitie and that partly by the worde of God partly by the approbation and allowance of the Church Where first he alloweth this distinction which you so greatly mislyke that all Ministers be equall touching spirituall iurisdiction that is their ministerie but not concerning externall discipline then doth he allowe degrées of dignitie and superioritie among the Clergie the which after that he hath prooued by the Scripture as namely the. 4. to the Ephesians and by the examples of Paule Hemingius acknowledgeth Patriarches in the primitiue Churche The office of Patriaches in the primatiue Church Timothie and Titus he procéedeth and goeth on forwarde and sayth Ecclesia c. The Church to whome the Lorde hath giuen power vnto edification hath ordeyned an order of ministeries for hir profite that all things might be rightly ordeyned for the reedifying of the bodie of Christ. Hereof the Primitiue Church following the tymes of the Apostles did appoynt some Patriarkes whose office it was to prouide that the Byshoppes of euerie 〈◊〉 shoulde be rightly ordeyned and elected that the Bishops shoulde doe their duetie truely and that the Clergie and people shoulde obey them in those things that perteyned to the Lorde it appoynted also Chorepiscopos that is coadiutors of Bishoppes whome we nowe call Prouostes some Pastors and Catechistes This was the ordination of the Primitiue Church Wherein he plainly declareth these degrées that I speake of for vnder the name of Patriarkes it is euident that he comprehendeth Archbyshops or Metropolitanes to haue bene in the Primitiue Church immediately after the Apostles tyme and in the purest time of the Church than the which what can be spoken more directly for my purpose whose chiefe intent is to proue the antiquitie of these names and offices After this he sheweth the abuses of these offices in the corruption of doctrine vnder the Pope and he doth not onely name Archbishops but Bishops also Curates and other and therefore the note in your margent is but a note of a speciall spyte agaynst the Archbishops In the end speaking of Bishops Pastors and Doctors he sayth thus Inter hos ministros c. Amongst these ministers also our Churche acknowledgeth degrees To take away degrees is barbarousnes and orders of dignitie for the diuersitie of giftes the greatnesse of labour and the worthinesse of their calling and iudgeth it to be barbarous to will to take this order out of the Church It iudgeth that other Ministers ought to obey their Bishops in all things that tend Ministers subiect to Bishops to the edification of the Church according to the worde of God and the profitable order of the Church It iudgeth that the Bishops haue authoritie ouer the other ministers of the Church not such as is of masters but of fathers Wherby he acknowledgeth distinction of degrées and superioritie among Ministers and the iurisdiction of Bishops ouer other Ministers After all this he concludeth with these wordes conteyned in mine answere Nowe let the reader iudge whether I haue otherwise reported of Himingius than he himselfe in that Chapter affirmeth and whether he consent vnto me that woulde haue distinction of degrées among the Ministers or to you that would haue an equalitie which he calleth an Anabaptisticall and barbarous confusion Touching your notes gathered out of him I will briefly answere first in the exposition of the. 22. of Luke he is not agaynst me for I would not haue Archbishops or Bishops c. to take from Kings their rule and dominion as doth the Pope neyther woulde I haue them to reigne ouer the people as Kings and Princes do And I doe not thinke but that the authoritie and superioritie that they haue is a ministerie for the quietnesse of the Church and the commoditie of other and yet a gouernment to for the Apostle sayth ad Hebr. 13. Obedite his qui praesunt vobis Obey them that Heb. 13. beare rule ouer you c. Hemingius in that place especially dealeth agaynst the two swordes of the Bishop of Rome and his excessiue pompe For the kinde of authoritie that the Bishop hath ouer the Ministers that it should What kind of authoritie the Bishos exercise be of a father and not of a master I agrée with him and I knowe that all you speake to the contrarie in the gouernment of this Churche is most vntrue For vndoubtedly if they haue offended in any thing it is in to much lenitie whiche is a fault euen in a father The authoritie that Hemingius giueth to the ciuill Magistrate we acknowledge with him to be moste due and I would to God you also dyd in heart and mouthe confesse the same Thus you sée that Hemingius and we agrée and that there is nothing ascribed vnto him whiche is not playnely to be founde in him Chap. 3. the. 73. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 75. Lin. 11. Sect. 1. Wherefore thus I conclude with the very wordes of that worthy M. Foxe ▪ man who hathe so well deserued
of this Churche of Englande Master Foxe In the ecclesiasticall estate vve take not avvay the distinction of ordinarie degrees suche as by the Scripture be appoynted or by the Primitiue Churche allovved as Patriarkes or Archebishops Bishops ministers and deacons for of these foure vve especially reade as chief in vvhich foure degrees as vvegraunt diuersitie of office so vve admit in the same also diuersitie of dignitie neyther denying that vvhich is due to eache degree neyther yet maynteyning the ambition of any singular person For as vve giue to the minister place aboue the Deacon to the Bishop aboue the minister to the Archbishop aboue the Bishop so vve see no cause of inequalitie vvhy one minister should be aboue another minister one Bishop in his degree aboue another Bishop to deale in his dioces or an Archbishop aboue an other Archbishop and this is to keepe an order duely and truely in the Church according to the true nature and definitiō of order by the authoritie of Augustine lib. de Ciui Ordo est parium dispariumque rerum sua cuique loca tribuens dispositio Hitherto M. Foxe Nowe let the indifferent Reader iudge whether these offices be straunge and vnheard of in the Church of Christ or no. T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. vlt. M. Doctor closeth vp this matter with M. Foxe but eyther for feare that the place shoulde be founde that there might be answere or for feare that M. Foxe shoulde giue me the solution which hath giuen you the obiecion he would neyther quote the place of the booke nor the booke it selfe he hauing written diuers You can not speake so muche good of M. Foxe whiche I wyll not wyllingly subscribe vnto and if it be any declaration of good wyll and of honor that one beareth to another to reade that which he writeth I thinke (*) I maruel 〈◊〉 place 〈◊〉 cape so 〈◊〉 a r ader I haue read more of him than you For I haue read ouer his booke of Martyrs and so I think dyd neuer you for if you had read so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue beene hasty to snatche at this place he woulde haue taughte Pag. 78. of the booke of Actes you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetche your authorities and woulde haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of Metropolitanes Bishops and other degrees whiche you say sometimes had their beginnings in the Apostles tymes sometimes you can not tell when were not in Higinus tyme whyche was 180. yeares after Christe I (a) A suspicious head perceyue you feare M. Foxe is an enimie vnto your Archbishop and primate and therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupte him with his prayse and to seeke to drawe him if it were possible vnt the Archbishop and if not yet at the least that he would be no enimie if he woulde not nor coulde not be his friend You make me suspect that your prayse is not harty but pretended bicause you doe so often and so bitterly speake agaynst all those that wyll not receyue the cappe and surplesse and other ceremonies whereof M. Foxe declareth his great misliking For answere vnto the place bicause I remember it not nor meane not to reade ouer the whole booke to seeke it I say first as I sayde before that there may be somethyng before or after whych may giue the solution to this plac especially seeing M. Foxe in another place page 96. prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfeyt he vseth this reason because the fyft canon of the sayd Epistles solemnly entreateth of the difference betweene Primates Metropolitanes and Archbishops which distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauour more of ambition than persecution Moreouer I saye that M. Foxe wryting a storie dothe take greater payne and looketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what tyme and by whome than howe iustly or bniustly howe conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sinceritie of the Gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whyche hathe traueled so muche and so profitably to that ende will not haue hys authoritie or name therein to bryng any preiudice Nowe wyll I also ioyne wyth you and leaue it to the iudgemente of the indifferent Reader howe well out of the Scriptures Councels wryters olde and newe you haue proued eyther the lawfulnesse at all of the names of Archbishops Patriarkes Archdeacons Primates or of the lawfulnesse of the office of them and of Bishops which be in our times Io. Whitgifte If you had so diligently read M. Foxe his booke of Martyrs as you boast and brag that you haue done then could not this place haue béene so straunge vnto you for it is in the 20. page of his first tome where he hath an whole treatise touching the supremacie of the Bishop of Rome and speaketh of this matter at large The words be his own and expresse his owne iudgement of these degrées offices in this Church of Englande It had béene some token of modestie so to haue commended your selfe and your owne reading that you had not depraued any other mans But to cōmend your selfe and to detract from an other is eyther arrogant foolishnesse or foolishs arrogancie I can bring foorth good testimonies of my reading of these bookes thoughe I make no vragge thereof or vayne comparisons I haue alleaged none of these Epistles other wyse than M. Foxe him selfe hathe alleaged them M. Foxe hathe shewed him selfe in the place by me cited out of his booke to be no 〈◊〉 eyther to Archbishop Priuate or Bishop for I am sure he speaketh as he thinketh He is not a man like to be corrupted with prayse and therefore in so saying you doe vs bothe great iniurie You may not iudge my heart I thinke of M. Foxe as of one that I loue and reuerence I will not vtter all that I could least I should séeme to flatter There is nothing that goeth eyther before that place or followeth after it that can procure any other sense to his wordes than that in the which I haue set them down I doe not alleage M. Foxe for the originall of these names and offices but for the allowance of them These words that I haue recited are not spoken in the waye of any hystorie but of the order of gouernment of this Church which he alloweth and I dare saye for him that he hathe héereinspoken nothing whiche he thinketh maye hurte the 〈◊〉 of the Gospell And I am right well content to let the godly Reader iudge of bothe our proofes ¶ The defense of the answere of Master Iewell concerning Archbishops c. agaynst the vnreuerende Replie of T. C. Chap. 4. the first Diuision T. C. Pag ▪ 91. Sect. 1. And for as much as I haue purposed to answere in one place that which is scattered in diuers I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 halfe a sheete of 〈◊〉 ▪ which is annexed of
Churche be so great and the people so many that he cannot be heard of them then there ought to be some regarde thereof S. Luke telleth what S. Peter dyd in the congregation he dothe not prescribe any general rule Euery circumstance that is tolde in the scriptures is not streightway to be made an inuiolable rule of all men to be followed The place is not material so that it be suche as the people may well heare and vnderstande that whiche is read and preached Concerning the lessons whiche are to be read the booke prescribeth no place only it willeth the minister to stande and to turne him so as he may best be heard of all suche as be present And are you offended at that neyther doth y ◠booke appoynt any certein place for the Le anie to be sayde in and therfore you do but dally and trifle The Ordinarie is the méetest man to whose discr tion those things sh uld be le t both for his learning wisdome and also that there may be one vniforme or 〈◊〉 his diocesse if any Ordinarie be carelesse in such matters if you wil complaine of him I am sure you shal be heard But your delight pleasure is to be gyrding at Bishops though the cause be forged Chap. 1. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. And the ende of the order in the booke is to be obserued which (*) 〈◊〉 is to kepe the prayers in the accustomed place of the church chappell or chauncell which howe maketh it to edification And thus for the generall faultes committed either in the whole lyturgie or in the most part of it both that I may haue no neede to repeate the same in the particulars and that I be not compelled alwayes to enter a new disputation so oft as M. Doctor saith very 〈◊〉 vnlike a diuine (*) These be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence so euer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the Church of Christ. Io. Whitgifte What is the ende of the booke in that matter why do you not expresse it But you say it is to keepe the prayers in the accustomed places c. if this be the ende why doth the book admitte alteration do you not sée your solfe manifestly conuinced by the booke I beléeue and I am well assured that the ende is edification whatsoeuer you imagine to the contrarie And vndoubtedly you haue founde out maruellous weightie and wittie reasons agaynst the whole Lyturgie or the moste parte of it And the faults you haue noted be very many and excéeding great But haue you no conscience in calling good euill or are you not afrayde vpon so light quarels to make suche a schisme in the Church and to bring so worthy a booke into so great contempt Well you will one daye be better aduised I doubt not whiche truely I wishe for and hope for howe vncourteously so euer you haue vsed me That which M Doctor sayth so vnskilfully and vnlike a diuine he hath learned of better and more skilfull diuines than eyther of vs bothe be that is of Ambrose and of Caluine for the one sayth Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu sancto est All truthe of 〈◊〉 in ▪ ▪ Mat. vers 37. whom soeuer it is spoken is of the holy Ghost the other Purus est multarū erū vsus quarū vitiosa est origo The vse of many thinges is pure whose beginning is vicious and vnpure But M. Doctors bare affirmation if he had so vsed it is of as good credite as your bare negation But when he hath learned mē of his opinion and Iudgement for you thus to shift it of is but to bewray your vnablenesse to disproue it either by authoritie or reason You should at the least haue made true repor e of my words which you haue not done but delt therin according to your accustomed manner for my wordes be th se. Fol. 82. It maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in Pag. 82. sect what booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and con onant to Gods worde and you reporte them thus whence soeuer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the churche of Christ. If you haue the truthe why doe you thus goe about to maynteyne it with lyes In so doing you hurt not me but your selfe and your cause ¶ An examination of the particular faultes eyther in matter or forme wherwith the booke of common prayer is charged Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. Nowe I come to the forme of prayer whiche is prescribed wherein the Authors of the Admonition declare that their meaning is not to disallowe of prescript seruice of prayer but of thys fo rme that we haue (*) A prop excus for they expounde them selues in the additions vnto the fyrst parte of the Admonition Io. Whitgifte In déede they haue retracted it in some poynt which argueth they writte their booke at the first with small aduise and lesse discretion It is no exposition but a retractation or recantation for the places of Scripture which they quoted and their very wordes declare that they ment the contrary and so doth their practise in secrete conuenticles But now you come to my Answere wherein you take what you list and leaue what you list as you haue hitherto done Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Admonition The fouretenth Then ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayers inuented by mā but as the spirit (g) Rom. 8. 26 1. Tim. 1. 2 moued them so they powred forth hartie supplications to the Lord. Now they are bound of necessitie to a (h) Damasus the first inuentor of this stuffe vvell furthered by Gregory the seuenth prescripte order of seruice and boke of common prayer Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 77. Sect. 3. To proue that ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayer inuented by man but that as the spirite moued them c. you quote Rom. 8. the 1. Timo. 1. In the eight to the Romaines the wordes be these Likevvise also the spirite helpeth our infirmities for vve knovve not vvhat to pray as vve ought but the spirite it self maketh request for vs vvith fighes which cannot be expressed This place speaketh nothing against any prescript forme of prayer for then it should disallow the Lordes prayer but it teacheth vs that it is the spirite of God that sturreth vs vp to pray and maketh vs earnestly poure out our supplications vnto God And thus the spirit worketh as well by prescript prayers as by prayers sodenly inuented The wordes to Timothie Epist. 1. ca. 1. vers 2. are far fetched nothing to the purpose the wordes be these Vnto Timothie my natural sonne in the fayth grace mercie and peace from God our father and from Christ Iesu our Lorde what maketh these wordes against any prescript forme of
prayers peraduenture you would haue alleaged the 1. to Timo. 2. I exhort therefore that first of all supplications c. which maketh directly agaynst you Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 78. Sect. 1. If you meane by prayers inuented by man such prayers as man inuenteth against the worde of God as prayer for the dead prayer vnto saincts such like then it is true that you say But if you mean such prayers as by godly men be framed according to the holy scriptures whether they be for matters perteyning to the life to come or to this life then you shew your ignorāce for it is manifest that there hath bene alwayes in the Church of Christ a prescript forme of publike prayer as it appeareth in Iustinus Martyr Apol. 2. Pro Christianis other Iustinus Martyr auncient fathers neyther did euer any learned or godly man or reformed Church finde faulte herewith or not greatly cōmende the same except onely the secte of Anabaptistes T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. vlt. Pag. 106. Sect. 1. It is not to any purpose that M. Doctor setteth himself to proue that there may be a prescript order of prayer by Iustine Martyres testimonie which notwithstanding hath not one worde of prescript forme of prayers only he sayth there were prayers he sayth in deede the auncient fathers say that there hath bene alwayes such kinde of prayers in the Churches and although they do say so yet all men may vnderstand easily that M. Doctor speaketh this rather by contecture or that he hath hearde other men say so for so much as that Doctor which he hath chosen out to speake for ll the rest hath no such thing as he fathereth on him He sayeth that after they haue baptized they pray for themselues and for him that is baptized and for all men that they may be meete to learne the truth and to expresse it in their honest conuersation and that they be founde to keepe th mmaundementes that they may atteyne to eternall life but is this to say that there was a prescript forme of prayer when he sheweth nothing els but the chiefe poynts vpon the which they conceyued their prayers If you had alleaged this to proue what were the matters or principall poynts that the Primitiue Churche vsed to pray for you had alleaged this to purpose but to alleage it for a proofe of a prescript forme of prayer when there is not there mentioned so much as the essentiall forme of prayer which is the asking of our petitions in the name and thorough the intercession of our Sauiour Christ without the which there is not nor cannot be any prayer argueth that eyther you little know what the forme of prayer is or that you thought as you charge the authors of the Admonition so often that this geare of yours should neuer haue come to the examination But for as much as we agree of a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed in the Church let that go this that I haue sayde is to shew that when M. Doctor happeneth of a good cause which is very seldome in this booke yet then he marreth it in the handling Io. Whitgifte I haue the lesse laboured in this point bicause it is a thing so generally allowed of in all Churches in all times and so vnlearnedly impugned by the authors of the Admonition Iustinus Martyr maketh much for my purpose for in that he doth rehearse those chiefe poyntes of theyr prayers then vsed it is manifest that they had a prescript order and forme of prayer the which no man can denie that readeth the place I graunt that these wordes prescript forme of prayer are not there to be founde Yet is there a prescript order and forme by him generally described whereby it is more than probable that at that tyme there was vsed a prescript forme of prayer In the 3. Councell Con Carth. 3 Can. 23. of Carthage we finde this Canon Let no man vse the formes of prayer which he hath framed to himselfe without conference with brethren that are better learned Whereby it may euidently be gathered that at that time there was a prescript forme of prayer vsed and that it was not lawfull to vse any new forme of priuate prayers except the same were allowed by the brethren But for as much as in this poynt you consent with me and graunt that there may be a prescript forme of prayer I will omitte whatsoeuer I had purposed to haue sayde more in that matter and so I will do also your taunts respecting the matter rather than Lucians Rhetoricke Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 78. Sect. 2. 3. Damasus was a good Bishop therfore no good thing by him appointed Damasus added Glori Patri c ▪ to be disallowed but he did not first ordeyne a prescript forme of publike prayers he onely added something therevnto As Gloria patri c. to the end of euery psalme And decreed that Psalmes should be song aswell in the night time as in the day time in euery Church but they were song in the Church before and as I haue sayde there was a prescript forme of prayer in Iustinus Martyrs time who was long before Damasus Gregorie added the Letanie onely I muse what you meane to Gregory made the Letanie write so manifest vntruthes Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 79. Sect. 1. You note not here neyther are you able any prayer in the whole Cōmunion booke wherein there is any thing not agreeable to Gods worde we may say as S. Augustine sayth in his 121. Epistle written Ad Probam viduam Etsi per omnia praecationum sanctarum verba discurras quantum existim Augustine nihil inuenies quod non ista Dominica contineat concludat orati Vnde liberum est alijs atque alijs verbis eadem tamen in orando dicere sed non debet esse liberum alia dicere And if thou runnest thorough all the vvordes of the holy prayers I suppose thou shalt finde nothing vvhich the Lordes prayer doth not conteyne and comprehende therefore vve may in other vvordes speake the same thinges in our prayers but vve may not speake contrarie things T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 1. 2. After he a irmeth that there can be nothing shéwed in the whole booke which is not agreeable to the worde of God I am very loth to enter into this fielde albeit M. Doctor doth thus prouoke me both bycause the Papistes will lightly take occasion of euill speaking when they vnderstande that we do not agree amongst our selues in euery poynt as for that some fewe professoures of the Gospelt being priuate men boldened vpon such treatises take such wayes sometimes and breake forth into such speaches as are not meete nor conuenient Io. Whitgifte In so saying I do fullie agrée with such as haue
learnedly and truly written agaynst the common aduersaries of this Booke among whome there is one that wrote a Booke Entituled A sparing restraynt of many lauishe vntruthes which M. Doctor Harding doth chalenge in the first Article of my Lorde of Sarisburies Replye The A sparing re trayne Author of that booke writeth thus O M. Harding turne agayne your writinges examino your authorities consider your Councels applie your examples looke if any line be blameable in our seruice and take holde of your aduantage I thinke M. Iewell will accept it for an Article And a little after Our seruice is good and godly euery title grounded on holy Scriptures and with what face do you call it darkenesse This was his opinion then of our seruice And it both was then and is now my full perswasion and I will God willing performe that against you which he offred in M. Jewell his name agaynst Harding Your othnesse to enter into this fielde is but dissembled your continuall barking The Repliet his wordes contrary to his deedes agaynst the state and forme of this Church of England doth conuince you of the contrarie Neyther haue you any respect or regarde for giuing occasion o euill speach to the Papistes much lesse of prouoking your adherentes to vnduetifull speaches as you pretend your booke tending wholly to the contrary Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 3. Notwithstanding my dutie of defending the truth loue which I haue first towardes God and then towards my countrie constrayneth me being thus prouoked to speake a few wordes more particularly of the forme of prayer that when the blemishes thereof do appeare it may please the Queenes inaiestie hir honorable councell with those of the Parliament whom the Lorde hath vs o as singular instrumentes to d liuer this realme from the hote fornace and yron yoke of the popish Egipte to procure also that the corruptions which we haue brought from them as those with which we being so deepely died and stayned haue not so easily shaken of may be remoued from amongst vs to the ende that we beyng necrclicr both ioyned vnto the sinceritie of the gospell and the ollicie of other reformed Churches may thereby be ioyned nearer with the Lord and may be se te so farre from Rome that both we may comfort our selues in the hope that we shall neuer returne thither againe and our aduersaries which desire it and by this to much agreement with them and to little with the reformed Churches hope for it may not onely be deceyued of their expectation but also being out of all hope of that which they desire may the soner yeelde themselues vnto the truth wherevnto they are now disobedient Io. Whitgifte What dutie can there be in defacing a knowne and receaued truth what loue in flaundering your countrie vniustly and renting it in pieces with sectes and Schismes and prouoking the subiectes to haue mislikyng of their Magistrates and such as be placed in authoritie ouer them these be but clokes to couer an euill and vngodly purpose If you shall be able to shewe any suche blemishes in the booke of Common prayers they shall not be couered for me but if not than are you not a man to be credited I haue tolde you M. Caluines and M. Gualters opinion touching the ambitious Sup̄ra Cap. t e 13. Diuisi morositie of such as would haue all Churches framed after the example of some one and nowe I tell you agayne that there is no cause why this Churche of Englande eyther for truth of doctrine sinceritie of publike diuine seruice and other pollicie should giue place to any church in Christendome and sure I am that we are as 〈◊〉 ioyned with the Lorde our God as the members are to the bodie and the bodie to the head Our aduersaries haue o such hope vpon any suche occasion as you pretende if The aduersaries hope is in contention their hope be any it is especially in your contentions Wherein do we agrée with the Papistes or wherein do we dissent from the reformed Churches with these we haue all poynts of doctrine and substance common from the other we dissent in the most parte both of doctrine and ceremonies From what spirite come these bolde and vntrue speaches Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 4. And as for the Papistes triumphe in this case I shall not greatly neede to feare it ▪ ring that their discordes and contentions are greater a d that our stryfe is 〈◊〉 we 〈◊〉 b arther from them For the other that professe the Gospell I will desire in the name of God that they abuse not my labour to other ende than I bestowe it and that they eepe hemselues in theyr callinges committe the matter by prayer vnto the Lorde leauing to the ministers of the worde of God and to the magistrates that which apperteyneth vnto them Io. Whitgifte It is true of the Papistes but they deale in their controuersies more circumspectly and warely though they dissent in matters of farre greater importaunce and in the chiefe poyntes of their owne Religion To the professours of the Gospell you giue better Councell than you haue taken your selfe and you shewe an example contrary to your wordes and therefore how shall they beléeue you But now to the matter for hitherto you haue vttered nothing but woordes Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C Pag. 106. Sect. vlt. To come therfore to touche this matter I answere that there is fault in the matter and fault in the forme In the matter for that there are things there that ought not to be and things there are wanting in the order that should be Of the firste sorte is that we may euermore be defended The collect of Trinitie Sunday from all aduersitie Io. Whitgifte The first fault that you finde in the matter of prayer is a portion of the Collect of Trinitie Sunday wherein we pray That we may euermore be defended from al aduersitie And is this the matter you mislike let vs then consider your reason Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 1. Nowe for as much as there is no promise in the scripture that we should be free from all ad ersitie and that euermore it scemeth that this prayer might haue bene better conceyued being no prayer of faith or of the which we cā assure our selues that we shal obteyne it For if it be sayd that y the worde aduersitie is meante all euill we knowe that it hath no such signification neyther in this tongue of oures neyther in other tongues which vse the same worde in common with vs but that it signifieth trouble vexation and cala tie from all the which we may not desire alwayes to be deliuared And whatsoeuer can be alleaged for the defense of it yet euery one that is not contentio s may see that it needeth some caution or exception Io. Whitgifte I thinke no man will
occasion they may speake as I haue said in my Answer Chap. 3. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 2. Nowe if the speache be a true messenger of the hearte I perceyue master Doctor is of 〈◊〉 this mind that he would haue women preach in the Church of England at this time for he cannot denie and he also confesseth it sometimes that this is the time of necessitie and indeede it must be needes an extreme necessitie that driueth to make one man Pastor of two churches especially so farre distant that driueth to make men whiche are not able to teach ministers and diuers more things which are contrary to the word of God Therefore this being a time of necessitie by M. Doctors iudgement we ought to haue women to preach Besides this he sayth if neyther none other can or will preach that then women may preach but in the most churches of this realme there is none that eyther can or will preach therefore there and in those churches women at the leaste if they be able may preach the Gospell and consequently minister the sacraments Io. Whitgifte You wander from the matter and do but séeke occasion to quarel there is no such necessitie in this Church God be thanked as M. Doctor speaketh of for there is none in anye place or corner thereof that be ignorante of Christ or do not professe the name of Christ In all places they haue the scriptures red vnto them whiche conteine matter sufficient to saluation and therefore there is no cause why women should take vpon them to preach in the congregation neyther doth M. Doctor meane any such thing as you know very well but that it is your pleasure to dallie He meaneth In what time a womā may preach Christ. such places where all be infidells where they haue neither heard of Christ nor haue his word neither yet any other meanes to come by the knowledge of the same which is no where in this Church Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision Admonition Women that may (h) 1. Co. 14. 34 1. Tim. 2. 11 not speake in a congregation may yet in time of necessitie minister the Sacrament of Baptisme and that in a priuate house Ansvver to the Admonition Pag 186. Sect. vlt. You say women that may not speake in a congregation may yet in time of necessitie minister the sacrament of baptisme and that in a priuate house And to proue that women may not speake in a congregation you quote 1. Cor. 14. 1. Ti. 2. whereas you should rather haue proued that women may not in time of necessitie minister baptisme for that is the question and not the other Women may speake in the congregation if necessary occasion do require as M. Caluin teacheth in his institutions Chap. 13. Sect. 32. T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 3. In the. 187. Page he citeth M. Caluine in the. 13. Chap. Section 32. to proue that women may teach wherein (*) An argument of your ignorance I maruell what he meaneth so to alleadge M. Caluine continually he alleadgeth the. 13. Chap. and no booke as though he had written but one booke and indeede there is no such thing in no such chapter of any booke of his institutions or many other place throughout his whole works as I am perswaded If this fault had bin but twise or thrise I woulde haue thought it had bin the Printers but now that it is continuall and so oftentimes surely he gyueth great suspicion that eyther some body hath mocked him with these places or else he would abuse others and especially him that should answere his booke setting him to seeke that he shoulde neuer finde Io. Whitgifte You pleade ignorance of such an edition of M. Caluines institutions but it is bycause you cannot answer the place for other places which I haue in like manner alleaged for the which you might haue any colour of answering you haue found out at the first yea and this selfe same place now in question but when there is no shifte to auoyd that which is alledged then you quarell with the booke and suspect that eyther Pag. 19. Sect. some body hath mocked him or that he would abuse others c. No no T. C. I thanke god I vse no such dealing I do alledge nothing which I haue not red in the Authors themselues I study not to encounter the Answer for eyther I set downe the whole place or else quote it so that it may easily be found Touching this booke of institutions of M. Caluines which I now follow I haue spoken before and declared why I do vse it rather than any other I haue laboured it noted it I am acquainted with it and belike I red it before you knew whether there was any such booke or no and if there be no suche booke of M. Caluines institutions only deuided into chapters and sections and not into bookes I will giue you all M. Caluines works bycause you so complayne of lacke of bookes But to come to the thing it selfe M. Caluine in that place speaking of such lawes and orders in the Church as are not perpetuall but alterable as occasion serueth vseth this commaundement of S. Paules touching the silence of women in the Churche for one example to make the matter more manifest his wordes be these Or is the commaundement touching hir silence such as it may not be broken without wickednesse Chap. 1 Sect. 32. And alittle after Et est vbi loqui nō minus opportunum illi sit quà m alibi tacere And there is a time and place when and where it is as fit for hir to speake as else where to holde ir peace These words be plaine and do sufficiently answer all that you can obiect to the contrary Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 4. As for M. Caluines iudgement what it is of womens preaching it may appeare by that he 4. Li. institut cap. 15. Sect. 20. will not by no meanes no not in time of necessitie as they tearme it suffer eyther woman or any lay man to baptise or minister any sacrament and therefore not to preach Io. Whitgifte I doubt not of M. Caluines iudgement in that poynt and yet I knowe other learned and notable men that thinke otherwise and namely Zuinglius in his booke de baptismo neyther do I go about to teach that women may preach I tell you onely what extreame necessitie maye extraordinarily permitte withoute iust cause of reprehension Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. vlt. And as for the examples of Mary the sister of Moyses of Olda of Anna and the daughters of Philip the Euangelist whiche are all called prophetesses tor I thinke M. Doctor meaneth these examples as for them I say it will be hard for to shew that they euer prophecied or taughte openly in any publike me ng or congregation But the surer answer is that although the Lorde do sometimes not being vnder any
abuse was growen in some places in the tyme of Hierome and Damasus about whose time thys The Cōmuniō ministred to the sicke Councell was but there is neyther Councell nor learned Father that euer opened their mouthes agaynst ministring the Communion to the sicke in pryuate families or vpon any other vrgente or necessarie occasion The (*) In the Greeke it is the. 13. Canon 12. Canon of the Councell of Nice dothe determine directly that the Communion oughte to be ministred to the sicke Chap. 6. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 116. Lin. 12. Besides therefore that I haue before shewed the vnlawfulnesse generally of ministring the Sacrament in priuate places seeing that the custome of ministring thys Supper vnto the sicke rose vpon corrupte causes and rotten foundations and consydering also God be praysed in these tymes there are non dryuen by feare to renounce the truthe wherevpon any suche excommunication should ensue which in the extremitie of sicknesse should be mitigated after thys sorte for no man nowe that is in extreme sicknesse is cast downe or else assaulted with this temptation that he is cutte off from the Churche I saye these things considered it followeth that this ministring of Communion in priuate houses and to the sicke is vnlawfull as that whiche rose vpon euill grounds and if it were lawfull yet that nowe in these times of peace and when the sicke are not excōmunicated there is no vse of it And so it appeareth how little the custome of the olde Church dothe helpe M. Doctor in this poynt Io. Whitgifte This was one cause but not the only cause why the Communion was ministred to the sicke the chiefe and principall cause was as I haue sayde the frutes and effectes of that Sacrament whiche is remission of sinnes peace of conscience and effectuall applying of the death and passion of Christ vnto the Communicants and an assurance of Gods promises whereof that sacrament is an effectuall seale Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 81. Sect. 3. The Communion exhibited vnto sicke persons is allowed bothe Sick persons receyue the communion of Peter Martyr and Bucer as in the other treatise I haue declared and consonant to the custome of Christes Churche euen from the Apostles time as is to be seene in the olde writers T. C. Page 116. Sect. 1. And as for that he sayth Peter Martyr and Bucer do allowé the Communion exhibited to the sicke persons when he sheweth that he shal haue answere For where he sayth he hath declared it in an other treatise eyther the Printer hath left out that treatise or M. Doctor wonderfully forgetteth him selfe or else he meaneth some odde thing that he hath written and layed vp in some corner of his studie for surely there is no suche saying in all his booke before nor yet after as farre as I can finde M. Bucer in his Censures vpon the Communion booke speaking of this parte of Bucer it sayth thus And those thinges whiche are commaunded in this behalfe doe well inoughe agree with the holye Scriptures for to receyue the Communion of the Lorde and to be partaker of hys Table dothe not a little auayle vnto the comforte of afflicted consciences if it be receyued according to the Lords institution M. Martyrs allowing of the same is added in that place M. Musculus in his Common places Titul de coena Domini saythe that Priuata Musculus extrema aegrotantium communio c. Priuate and last communion ministred to the sicke is reteyned in dyuers reformed Churches for this ende that the sicke persons thereby maye be strengthned in fayth made stronger agaynst the temptations of Sathan and the better armed to beare the paynes of death Neyther doe I sée any reason if the superstitious opinion of the Papistes be rooted out why any man in that case shoulde be depriued of these benefites Chap. 6. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 116. Sect. 2. Nowe remayneth to be spoken of the number of communicantes and that there is saulte in the appoynting of the Seruice booke not onely for that it admitteth in the tyme of plague that one wyth the Minister maye celebrate the Supper of the Lorde in the house but for that it ordeyneth a Communion in the Churche when of a great number whyche assemble there it admytteth thrce or foure The abuse and inconuenience whereof maye thus be considered The holy Sacrament of the Supper of the Lorde is not onely a seale and confirmation of the promises of God vnto vs but also a profession of our comunction as well with Christe our sauiour and wyth God as also as (*) 1. C 10 S. Paule teacheth a declaration and profession that we are at one wyth our brethren so that it is first a sacrament of the knytting of all the body generally and of euery member particularly wyth the head and then of the members of the bodie one wyth an other Nowe therefore seeing that euery particular Churche and body of Gods people is a representation and as it were a liuely portrayture of the whole Churche and body of Christ it followeth that whyche we can not doe wyth all the Churche scattered throughout the whole worlde for the distaunces of places whereby we are seuered we ought to doe with that Churche wherevnto God hath raunged vs as muche as possibly or conuentently maye be The departing therefore of the rest of the Churche from those three or foure is an open profession that they haue no communion felowshippe nor vnitie wyth them that doe communicate and likewyse of those three or foure that they haue none wyth the rest that ioyne not themselues therevnto when as both by the many grapes making one cup cornes making one loafe that whole Church beeing many persons are called as to the vnitie whiche they haue one with an other and altogether among them selues so to the declaration and profession of it by receyuing one wyth another and altogither amongst themselues And as if so be that we do not celebrate as we may possibly and conueniently the supper of the Lorde we thereby vtter our wante of loue towardes the Lorde whyche hathe redeemed vs so if we doe not communicate togither wyth the Churche so farre foorthe as we maye doe conueniently we betray the wante of our loue that we haue one towards an other And therefore S. (*) 1. C 11 Paule driuing heerevnto wysheth that one shoulde tary for an other reprehending that when one preuenteth and commeth before an other saying that that is to take euery man hys owne supper and not to celebrate the Lordes Supper not that so many men or women as there came so many tables were for that had not beene possible in so great assemblies but that they sorted them selues into certayne companies and that they came scattering one after an other and that in steade of making one Supper of the Lorde they dyd make dyuers Io. Whitgifte You can
doth not only nourish fayth but gēdreth also as I haue proued in my Answere to the Admonition both by the scriptures and other learned writers If it were otherwyse then were the power of persuasion to be ascribed to the preacher and manner of teaching not to the worde which is against that saying of Christe Scrutamini scripturas c. searche the scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life c. and of the Apostle The whole scripture is giuen by inspiration of Iohn 5. 2. Tim. 3 God and is profitable to teache to improue to correct and to instruct in righteousnes that the man of God may be absolute c. I denie not but that preaching is the most ordinary and vsuall meanes that God vseth to worke by in the heartes of the hearers bicause the people be for the most Preaching y e most ordinary meanes and why part ignorant and dull of vnderstanding and therfore haue néede of scholemaisters teachers to open and declare the scriptures vnto them and to deale with them according to their capacitie but this doth nothing derogate from the might and power of the woord of God being read of them or to them that vnderstande it set their heart vpon it If reading were so simple a thing and so little profitable as you would make it why was the Gospell committed to writing why is it thought so expedient to haue it in a toung knowen to the people why do men printe their sermons which they haue preached why did God by Moses commaunde the lawe to be read why did the Prophete Ieremy wyll Baruch to wryte out his sermons and to reade them o the people Do you thinke that there commeth no more knowledge or profit by reading the scriptures than doth by beholding of Gods creatures Then let vs haue Images againe that they may be lay mens bookes as the Papistes call them no doubt attributing as much to the externall and visible creature as they did to the reading of the eternall worde of God wherein you ioyne with them for any thing that I yet sée Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 20. And to know that the word of God preached hath more force and is more effecuall than when it is read it is to be obserued wherunto the preaching is compared It is called a lifting or heauing Iohn 3. vp of our Sauiour Christ. Like vnto the displaying of a banner as the Serpent was lift vp in the wildernesse As therefore that which is lifted vp on high is better and easilyer seene of a greater companie than when it standeth or lyeth vpon the grounde or in some valley or some low place so the preaching of the gospell doth offer sooner and easilyer the truth thereof vnto the fayth which is the eye of the hearer than when it is read Io. Whitgifte Where is there any such comparison in that third Chapter of Iohn If you meane these wordes Et nem ascendit in caelum c. Et sicut Moses exaltauit Serpentem c. As Moses Iobn 3. lifted vp the Serpent in the wildernesse c. as you can meane no other then I think you were not well aduised or little cared for your credite when you abused them for this purpose to proue that the worde of God is more effectuall when it is preached than when it is read Surely if you fetch your similitudes so farre and imagine that which was neuer ment and make the scripture a nose of ware as the Papists do you may conclude what you list For how hangeth this togither No man ascendeth vp into heauen but he that discended downe from heauen the sonne of man which is in heauen Ergo sayth commeth by preaching of the worde of God and not by reading of it Or this As Moses lifted vp the Serpent in the desert so must the sonne of man be lifted vp that all that beleeue in him c Therefore the worde of God hath more force when it is preached than when it is read This geare is to profound for me I cānot vnderstand it except I wil imagine that which is not and it may be that you were in some other déepe meditation when you wrote it and so applied this text to a wrong matter for in that place Christ foretelleth of his death and passion whereof the lifting vp of the Serpent Num. 21. in the wildernesse was a figure And although I am not ignorant that some do allegorie vpon this place saying that Christ is lifted vp by the preaching of the Gospell yet that maketh nothing agaynst me who no where denie this effect of preaching And it is a verie harde collection to say Christ is lifted vp by preaching therefore reading letteth him lye on the grounde as though by reading the Gospell Christ is not also lifted vp and made manifest vnto the eyes of the faythfull Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. in the middest It is called also a sweete Sauour and therefore as the spyces being brayed and 〈◊〉 smell 2. Cor. 2 sweeter and stronger than when they be whole and vnbroken so the worde by interpretation being broken and bruysed caryeth a sweeter sauour vnto the vnderstanding than when it is by reading giuen grosse and whole the same also may be sayde in that the preaching is called a cutting of the worde of God for as when the meate is cut and shred it nourisheth more than when it is not 2. Tim. 2. so so likewise it is in preaching and reading Io. Whitgifte Saint Paule speaking of himselfe and of the ministers of the worde sayth thus For we are vnto God the sweete sauour of Christ in them that are saued c. and 2. Tim. 2. Cor. 2. 2. Tim. 2. he admonisheth Timothie to cut the worde of truth rightly that is prudently and according to the capacitie of the hearers What conclude you of this Or what one worde is there in eyther of those places that derogateth any thing from reading Do you thinke that the prayse of preaching is the disprayse of reading As though they were one contrarie to an other and not rather both of them most profitable Is not the worde of God when it is read a sweete sauour Is there not prudencie and discretion required in reading the Scriptures Surely I am sorie that the Papists shall haue so iust cause to iest at your so vnapt alledging of the Scriptures and that they shall be animated in their ridiculous applications of the same by these and such like vntowarde allegations of yours Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. somevvhat past the midst And that which is brought by the Authours of the Admonition and so scornefully hurled away of M. doctor that Saint Paule compareth the preaching vnto pianting and watering is a 1. Cor. 3. very (*) Surely you will make a notable conclusion notable place to proue that there is no saluation
at the other I will not denie but he may be more edisyed at the simple reading than at the Sermon vnlesse it be in this and such like case I knowe not howe it may be true that M. Doctor sayth And indeede it is as much to say that it may be that the meanes that God hath ordeyned to be the fittest and meetest to call men to saluation is not the fittest and meetest meanes which a man shoulde not once so much as thinke of without trembling and shaking euery ioynt of him Io. Whitgifte As absurde as it is Musculus doth affirme it in his common places titu de Lectio sacrae script And as his saying I report it in mine answere beléeuing it to be moste true And therefore if your malice had not béene wholy bent agaynst me you should haue ascribed this absurditie to him or at least haue deuided it betwixt vs and so my backe should haue béene somwhat eased of the burden of absurdityas wherewith you would so gladly ouercharge me God worketh by reading the Scriptures as well as he doth by preaching and God vseth reading as a meanes aswell as preaching vseth that also as a meanes to call men to saluation Read Augustine lib. con 8. cap. 12. and you shall sée that God vsed reading as a meanes to conuert him And surely I maruell that you professing the Gospell can without trembling and shaking speake so basely of reading the worde of God being a thing so precious and so singular a meanes of our saluation but for the thing it selfe I referre it to the iudgement Reading somtune preuayleth more than preaching of those that haue not drunke so déepely of the cuppe of contention as you haue whither it may not sometymes so happen Or whither they whiche are quietly affected may not receyue more edifying by the simple reading of the Sciptures which they vnderstande than by the Sermons of diuerse contentious preachers whose hote and bitter inuectiues which sauour more of malice than of loue of contention than of peace the frute of the Gospell may bréede in the heartes of those that are studious of peace and quietly minded some suspition of the truth of their doctrine Or lastly whither some misdoubting the truth of the doctrine of the preachers of the Gospell and conceyuing a preindicate opinion agaynst them as diuerse Papistes doe may not be more edifyed by diligent reading of the Scriptures of whose authoritie they doe not doubt than by hearing of the Preacher whose wordes they doe eyther mistrust or not regarde by reason of theyr preiudicate opinion agaynst all Preachers and in the ende perceyuing by reading of the Scriptures the truth of their doctrine may bée thereby established which were not by the Sermons once mooued And for this cause Christ sayde Iohn 5. Searche the Iohn 5. Scriptures c. That Reading is Preaching Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. Lin. 13. And nowe I thinke by this tyme M. Doctor knoweth his answere to his seconde question which is whether reading be not preaching ▪ And if this be not sufficient that I haue sayde I woulde aske gladly of him (*) A mere cauil whether all Readers be Preachers and whether whosoeuer readeth preacheth for if it be true which he sayth that reading is preaching then that is lykewise true that all those which reade preache and so a childe of 4. or 5. yeares olde is able to preach bycause he is able to reade Io. Whitgifte I know an answere in déede such as it is but it is much more fit for a Papist or Atheist than for a professor of the Gospell If preaching be taken generally for euerie How reading is preaching kinde of instructing or teaching by the worde of God as it is ad Rom. 10. then is reading preaching But if it be taken in the vsuall signification for him that interpreteth the Scripture teacheth and exhorteth in the Congregation by discoursing vpon the scriptures and applying them as occasion serueth then it is not so and yet no lesse profitable to edifying to such as vnderstande that which is read than preaching To reade the Scriptures is not to preach or teache in respect of him that readeth but in the respect of Gods spirite whiche thereby worketh knowledge in the heart of the Reader or Hearer For we must thinke it to be true that Cyprian sayth VVhen we reade the Scripture God speaketh vnto vs and in this sense a childe that can read may preach that is God by his worde read of a childe may and doth oftentimes teach vs. And hereof we haue God be thanked many examples in Englande of those which béeing not able to reade themselues by the meanes of their children reading to them at home receyue instruction and edifying And if you had béene disposed to haue called to remembrance that which you say you haue so diligently read in M. Foxe you might haue knowne that diuerse in the beginning came to the light of the Gospell onely by reading and hearing the newe Testament in English read which I am sure you will confesse to haue bene to them a preaching and instruction Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Admonition By the worde of God it is an office of preaching they make it an office of reading Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 159. Sect. 1. But where doth the booke make the ministerie an office of reading onely Or what contrarietie is there betwixt reading and preaching Nay what difference is there betwixt them If a man A written sermon is preaching shoulde write his Sermon and reade it in the booke to his flocke doth he not preach Is there no Sermons but such as be sayde without booke I thinke to preache the Gospell is to teache and instruct the people in fayth and good maners be it by wryting reading or speaking without booke and I am sure the spirite of God doth worke as effectually by the one of these wayes as it doth by the other Did not Saint Paule preache to the Romaines when he writte to them Was not the reading of Deuteronomie to the people a preaching 2. Reg. 23. Will you so scornefully and so contemptuously speake of the reading of Scripture beeing a thing so frutefull and necessarie T. C. Pag. 127. Lin. 18. And least he shoulde seeme to be thus euill aduised without some reason in the. 159. Page he asketh whether if a man wryte his Sermon and after reade it in the booke that reading be preaching Here is hard shift what if I graunted that it is preaching yet I denie that therefore he that readeth an other mannes Sermon preacheth and further I say that if there be any such as beeing able to preache for his knowledge yet for fault eyther of vtterance or memorie can not doe it but by reading that whiche hee hath written It is not conuenient that hee shoulde bee a Minister in the Churche For Saint Paule doth not require onely that the 1. 〈◊〉 3. Bishoppe
vntill I heare some proofe or authoritie to the contrarie Howbeit the waight of the cause lieth not vpon this text this is but one reason among diuerse Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. Sect. vlt. But M. Doctor heareth with his left eare and readeth with his lefte eye as though his right eye were pulled out or his right are cut of For otherwise the other wordes which they haue touching this matter might easily haue bene expounded by the argument and matter whiche they handle Io. Whitgifte How doth it then happen that you haue not salued the matter by setting downe theyr wordes and declaring how I haue mistaken them seyng you haue omitted that men may well thinke that this is not vttered of you in good earnest Now that you haue sayde all in this matter you must giue me leaue to let the Reader vnderstande what you haue lefte vntouched in my booke concerning the same whither it be bycause you consent vnto it or that you cannot answere it I referre to his discretion ¶ The profite of Reading Scriptures in the Churche Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 91. Sect. 2. 3. Isidorus sayth that reading bringeth great profit to the hearers Isidorus Tertul. in Apologet Tertullian sayth when we come togither to the reading of the holy Scriptures we feede our fayth with those heauenly voyces we rayse vp our affiance we fasten our hope And agayne he calleth the reading of the Scriptures the feeding of our fayth But what neede I speake any more of a matter so manifest you atly ioyne Hardinges opinion of reading scripture with the Papiste in this for in the confutation of the Apologie of the Church of England M. Harding calleth reading of the Scriptures to the people in the Churche a spirituall dumbnesse and a thing Parte 5. and in the. 15. Arti. of the Replie vnprofitable c. That to reade the Scriptures in the Churche is no new thing but most auncient and grounded vpon Gods worde it is manifest by that which is written in the. 4. of Luke where the Euangelist sayeth that Christe on the Sabboth daye going into the Synagogue Luc. 4. according to his accustomed manner rose vp to read and there vvas deliuered vnto him the booke of the Prophete Esay and as soone as he opened the booke he founde the place vvhere it vvas vvritten Spiritus Domini super me c. The spirite of the Lorde vpon me c. Likewise in the thirtenth of the Actes we reade that Paule and other of his company beyng in the Synagogue on the Sabboth day was sent vnto by the rulers of the Sinagogue Post lectionem legis Prophetarum After the reading Ad. 13. of the lavve and the Prophetes To knowe if they would make any exhortation to the people Iustinus Martyr Apolog. 2. pro Christianis sayth that in his time the manner Iustinus Mar yr was on the Sabboth day vvhen the people vvere gathered togither to haue the scriptur s read in the publike congregation and in the time of publike prayer for the space of one vvhole hovver Origen writing vpon Iosua Homil. 15. sayeth that the bookes of the Orig n. olde Testament vvere deliuered by the Apostles to be read in the Churches Cyprian lib. 2. Epist. 5. sayeth The Reader soundeth out the high and Cyprian heauenly vvordes he readeth out the Gospell of Christe c. Chrysostome vpon the Actes Homil. 19. The minister and common minister standeth vp and crieth vvith a lovvde voyce saying Keepe silence Chrysostome Augustine after that the Reader beginneth the prophesie of Esay Augustine speaking to the people sayeth Yee heard vvhen the Gospell vvas read Ye heard erevvhyle vvhen it vvas read if ye gaue eare to the reading dearely beloued vve haue heard in the lesson that hath bene read Admonition And that this is not the feeding that Christe spake of the Scriptures are playne d For reading ministers vievv these places Mala. 2. 7. Esay 56. 10 Zach. 11. 15 at 15. 14. Tim. 3. 3 Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse too for players yet learne theyr partes without booke and these a mayny of them can scarcely read within booke These are emptie feeders e Math. 6. 22 darke eyes f Math. 9. 38 〈◊〉 3. ill workemen to hasten in the Lordes haruest g Luc. 14. 17 messangers that can not cal h Mat. 23. 34 Prophers that can not declare the will of the Lord i Math. 5. 13 vnsauerie salt k Mat. 15. 14 blind guides l Isay. 36. 10 sleepie watchmen m Cor. 4. 1. Luc 16. 1. vntrustie dispensers of Gods secretes n 2. Tim. 2. 15 euill deuiders of the worde o 〈◊〉 1. 9. weake to withstande the aduersarie p 2. T 3. 15. 16. not able to confute And to conclude so farre from making the man of God perfect to all good workes that rather the quite contrarie may be confirmed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 161. Sect. 2. 3. For reading ministers you bid vs viewe these places Mala. 2. vers 7. Esay 56. 10. Zachar. 11. 15. Matth. 15. 14. 1. Timoth. 3. 3. The Prophete Malachie in the seconde chapter and seuenth verse sayeth on this sorte For the Priestes lippes shoulde preserue knovvledge and they shoulde seeke the lavve at his mouthe For he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes In whiche wordes the Prophete doth signifie that the Priestes ought to be learned in the lawe and able to instruct which no man denieth and if there be any crepte into the ministerie whiche a not able so to do it is to be ascribed eyther to the negligence of t Bishop and such as haue to do therein or to the necessitie of the Reading is profitable t me But here is nothing spoken agaynst reading for any thing that I can gather and if any man shoulde come vnto me and demaunde of me any question touching the lawe of God I thinke I shoulde better satisfie him if I did reade the wordes of the lawe vnto him than if I should make a long tedious discourse of myne owne to litle or no purpose It is the worde it selfe that pearceth and mou th the conscience I speake not this agaynst interpreting of the Scriptures or preaching Pag. 162. Sect. 1. 2. for I know they be both necessary but agaynst such as be enimies to the reading of them The places in the. 56. of Esay and in the eleuenth of zacharie tende to the same purpose they all speake agaynst ignorant foolish slouthfull gouernours and pastours there is nothing in them that condemneth or disaloweth readyng of the Scriptures or reading of Prayers No more is there in the fiftenth of Matthew nor 1. Timo 3. reade the places and you shal soone see with how litle iudgement they be quoted agaynst such ministers
as vse to reade the scriptures and prayers to the people If you had sayde agaynst dumbe vnlearned ministers viewe these places you had sayde something For Reading ministers 1. Tim. 4. For reading ministers that is for reading the Scriptures publikely in the church by ministers view you these places 1. Tim. 4. Til I come giue attendance to readyng to exhortation to doctrine In the whiche wordes as Musculus sayeth Exprimit ordinem Ecclesiasticum quo primùm ex Musculus sacris Scripturis aliquid legebatur deinde exhortatio doctrina subijciebatur He expresseth the Ecclesiasticall order vvherein firste there is some thing reade out of the Scriptures then follovveth exhortation and doctrine Luke 4. Where wee learne that Christe beyng at Nazareth as his custome Christe read the scripture was wente into the Sinagogue on the Saboth day and stoode vp to reade c. And yet you saye Reading is not feedyng but it is as euill as playing Pag. 163 Lin. 2. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. vpon a stage and vvorse to for players yet learne theyr partes vvithout booke and these a many of them can scarcely reade vvithin booke That reading is feedyng Musculus giueth these reasons Firste Reading is feeding Musculus bycause it maketh the people experte and cunning in the Scriptures so that they can not be so easily deceyued with false teachers And therefore Iosephus Lib. 2. contra Appion speakyng of this commoditie of hauing the Scriptures read sayeth on this sorte In vnaquaque septimana ad legem audiendam conueniunt vniuersi Nostrorum quilibet de legibus interrogatus facilius quam nomen suum recitat vniuersas quippe mox à primo sensu discentes in animo velut inscriptas habemus Euery vveeke all the people come togither to heare the Lavve Euery one of vs demaunded any question of the lavve can ansvvere readily as he can tell his ovvne name For vvee learnyng the lavve euen from our youth haue it as it vvere vvritten in our memorie Secondly the publike reading of the Scripture is good for such as can not reade themselues to suche likewise as can reade but yet haue not the bookes of the holy Scripture at home in their houses Thirdly it maketh the people better to vnderstande the Sermons preached vnto them bycause through the continuall hearing of the Scriptures read they be acquainted with the wordes and phrases of the same Last of all it may be that some men be more edified by the simple reading of the scriptures than by sermons Admonition By this booke bare reading is (q) 1. Cor. 3. 5. good tilling and single seruice saying is excellent (r) 1. Cor. 3. 9. buylding and he is shepherde good inough that can as popish Priestes could out of their Portuis say fayrely their diuine seruice Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 165. Sect. vlt. Pag. 166. Here is much a do about bare reading and single seruice saying by like you lacke matter to make out your volume when you iterate one thing so often I tell you agayne no honest godly or learned man No godly mā 〈◊〉 reading in the churche euer hither to did or will disallow readyng of the Scriptures in the Churche or a prescript order of Common prayers Shew any learned mans iudgement to the contrary shewe the example of any Christian Churche of antiquitie or of any late reformed Churche wherein there is not both reading of the Scriptures in the publike congregation and a prescripte order of Common prayers Nay shewe any one sillable in the Scriptures to the contrary As for your places alleaged out of the 1. Corinth 3. vers 5. And 1. Corinth 3. vers 9 The one to proue that by the booke bare readyng is good tilling the other that by the same booke single seruice saying is excellent buyldyng c. They shewe your intollerable audacitie I will terme it no worse in abusing the Scriptures In that place to the Corinthes the Apostle sayeth thus VVho is Paule then vvho is Apollos 1. Cor. 3. But the mynisters by vvhomeyee beleeued and as the Lorde gaue to euery man Howe can you gather hereof that by the Communion booke bare readyng is good tilling or how can you hereof conclude that which I thinke you meane that the sole and onely reading of the Scriptures is not tilling or that the Scriptures may not be read in the open congregation by the Minister what s quele call you this Paule and Apollos be the ministers by whome you Unskilfull Logicians beleeued as the Lord gaue to euery man Therefore the readyng of the Scriptures edifie not or it is not lawfull for them to be read in the Churche by the Minister You come to soone from the vniuersitie to haue any great skill in Logike but belyke bycause there is mention made of tylling in the nexte verse of that chapter therefore you quote it in the margent missing onely the lyne for this is your vsuall manner if you haue but one worde in a texte whiche you vse in your booke you quote the place as though it made for your purpose This is neyther playne nor wise dealyng The examples of suche as haue bene conuerted by readyng of Pag. 168. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Many conuerted by hearing the scriptures read the Scriptures and hearyng of them read be infinite I knowe not wherevnto this your bitternesse agaynst readyng of the Scripture tendeth excepte it be to confirme an other opinion of the Papistes touching the obscuritie and darkenesse of the Scripture or diuerse senses and vnderstanding of the same If you ioyne with them in that also then I haue to say vnto you with S. Augustine In his quae apertè in Scripturis posita sunt inueniuntur illa omnia quae cōtinent sidē moresque viuēdi August In those things that be playne and manifest in the Scriptures are all such things conteyned vvhich perteyne to fayth and good manners And with Hierom. in Psalme 86. Sicut scripserunt Apostoli sic ipse Dominus hoc est per Euangelia Hierome sua locutus est vt non pauci intelligerent sed vt omnes Plato scripsit in scriptura sed non scripsit populo sed paucis vix enim intelligunt tres homines Isti verò hoc est principes E clesiae principes Christi non scripserunt paucis sed vniuerso populo As the Apostles vvrite so did the Lorde that is he spake by his Gospels not that a fevve but that all might vnderstand Plato vvritte but he vvritte to fevv not to the people for scarse three do vnderstand him these that is the Apostles vvritte not to fevv but to the vvhole people But I thinke you doubt not of this matter If the readyng of the scriptures edifie not what needed Chrysostome Chrysostome exhorteth the people to get Bibles writing vpon the third to the Coloss. so earnestly exhorte the people to get them Bibles or at the least the new
puritie of the primitiue Churche Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 105. Sect. vlt. c. Interrogatories to be ministred to the infant be not straunge Interrogatories ministred to infantes Dionysius Areopag neyther lately inuented but of great antiquitie For Dionysius Areopagita in his booke entituled De caelest Hierar and seuenth chapter speaking of the baptising of infantes and of their sureties or godfathers and answering to certayne prophane deriders as he termeth them which sayde that one was baptised for an other bycause the Godfather did promise and answere for the childe speaketh thus in the name of the Godfather Neque enim hoc ille ai Ego pro puero abrenunciationes facio aut fidei Sacramenta prositeor sed ita puer renunciat profitetur id est spondeo puerum inducturum cum ad sacram intelligentiam venerit sedulis adhortationibus meis vt abrenuntiet contrarijs omnino profiteaturque peragat diuina quae pollicetur Neyther doth he say this I renounce for the childe or professe the Sacraments of faith but in this sort the childe doth renounce or professe that is to say I promise so to instruct the childe vvhen he commeth to the yeares of discretion vvith dayly exhortacions that he shall renounce all contrary thinges and professe and performe those heauenly thinges vvhich he doth promise T. C. Pag. 133. Sect. vlt. Pag. 134. Sect. 1. There followeth the interrogatories or demaundes ministred vnto the infantes in baptisme for the proofe whereof is brought in the first place Dionysius Areopagita a worthy couer for such a cup. For to let passe that M. Doctor alleageth the celestiall Hierarchie in steade that he should haue cited the ecclesiasticall Hierarchie this testimonie beyng found in the one and in the other dare M Doctor be so bolde as to delude the worlde in so great light with such babies as this doth he thinke that the Authour of these bookes of Hierarchies beyng so full of subtile speculations vayne and idle fantasies wicked blasphemies making one order of Popes an other of Prelates the third of Sacrifie s and then of Monkes some of which orders came not many hundred yeares after that time wherein Denise the Areopagite liued which mentioneth many foolish ceremonies and corruptions that no other Authour neyther Greeke nor Latine stories nor other diuers hundreth yeares after doth make mention of besides him I say doth he thinke to abuse menne and to giue them such drosse in steade of Siluer such chaffe in steade of corne as to make vs beleeue that he that wrote these bookes of Hierarchie was S. Paules scholler for the better blasing of this Denis armes I will sendè the reader vnto that which Erasmus writeth of this Denis of M. Doctors vpon the. 17. of the Aetes of the Apostles where he also sheweth togither with his owne iudgement the iudgement of Laurentius Ualla I am not ignorant what Nicephorus a fabulous Historiographer and of no credite in such matters in those matters especially which might like or mislyke those times wherein he wrote sayeth of S. Paules communicating with Denis and 2. Lib. 20. cap. an other concernyng the heauenly and ecclesiasticall hierarchie But bycause I thinke M. Doctor be now ashamed of his Deuis I will follow it no further By this it may appeare that M. Doctors Dionysius beyng a counterfet and start vp these Interrogatories and demaundes ministred vnto infantes haue not so many graye heares as he would make vs beleeue although in deede the question lieth not in the antiquitie As for reasons he hath none but only as one which hath learned his aequipollences very euill he maketh it all one to say I renounce and to say I will teach another to renounce Io. Whitgifte I knowe there is contrary opinions of learned men touching the authoritie and Authour of these bookes And yet it cannot be denied but that they be very auncient neyther is it any shame for me to alleage his authoritie seing the B. of Sarisburie is not ashamed to alleage the same booke against Harding to proue reading of Defense of the Apolog. Parte 5. the Scriptures in the Church with as great credite as I do Howbeit I wil not take vpon me the defense of them neyther do I doubte but that something may be thrust in vnto them but of all other thinges this is the least to be suspected that I haue in this place alleaged Neyther am I any more ashamed of him than you are of so often alleaging the Canons of the Apostles Hyginus c. the which authorities are as much doubted of as the bookes of Dionysius His reason is to be considered agreing fully with the true meaning of this Churche of Englande but you wipe it away with a floute as your manner is when you are driuen to a pinche Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 106. Sect. 1. Pag. 107. Sect. 1. Augustine also in his Epistle written ad Bonifacium answering Augustine this Question why seing we dare promise nothing of the infantes behauiour and manners when he commeth to mans state yet when An obiection made by Augustine The Answere to the same he is brought to baptisme and the question is asked of those that offer him to be baptised whither the infant beleeue or no they answere that he doth beleeue sayth on this sorte Nisi sacramenta quandam haberent similitudinem c. Except Sacramentes had a certayne similitude and likenesse of those thinges vvhereof they be Sacramentes they vvere no Sacramentes at all and by reason of this same similitude oftentymes they are called by the names of the thinges themselues therefore as after a crtayne manner of speaking the Sacrament of the body of Christe is the body of Christe the Sacrament of the bloud of Christe is the bloud of Christe so the Sacrament of the fayth is fayth neyther is it anything els to beleeue than to haue fayth and therefore vvhen ansvvere is made that the infant dothe beleeue not hauing as yet fayth in deede it is ansvvered that he doth beleeue for the Sacrament of fayth and that he doth conuert himselfe vnto God for the Sacrament of conuersion bycause the ansvvere it selfe doth perteyne to the celebration of the Sacrament And a litle after he sayeth Itaque paruulum etsi nondum fides illa quae in credentium voluntate consistit iam tamen ipsius fidei Sacramentum fidelem facit Nam sicut credere respondetur ita etiam fidelis vocatur non rem ipsa mente annuendo sed ipsius rei Sacramentum percipiendo Therfore although that faith vvhich consisteth in the vvill of the beleeuers dothe not make the ehylde faythfull yet dothe the Sacrament of that fayth make him faithfull for euen as it is ansvvered that he dothe beleeue so is he also called faithfull not by signifying the thing it selfe in his minde but by receyuing the Sacrament of the thing By these two authorities it is manifest that
had your warning The placing of one name for another is not so great an ouersight but that it may somtime happen to those which are verie circumspect and euen vnto your selfe as Iosias for Ezechias in the beginning * and Gregorie for George afterwarde so that herein you are not inferiour to me and the Pag. 97. Sect. 3 Ambrose one may well be set agaynst the other But let these tryfles go it is Ambrose in his booke de Officijs cap. 27. whose wordes be these Let the Bishop vse the Clearkes and especially the Ministers which are indeede his sonnes as his owne members let him assigne euerie one to that office whereunto he shall see him to be meete The part also of the bodie which putrifyeth is with griefe cut off and it is long looked vnto if it can be cured with medicines ▪ but if it cannot thē is it cut away by a good Phisition So it is the propertie of a good Bishop that he be desirous to heale the weake to take away sores that creepe on to burne some and not to cut them away last to cut away with griefe that which cannot be cured Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Page 148. in the ende of the. 1 Sect. To the rest I will answere with this pratestation that if all men shoulde doe contrarie to the order of God yet their authoritie or 〈◊〉 ght not to haue the weight of a feather which I haue sayd before and do vnderstand it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where I do not expresse it and with this I come to master Doctors authorities Io. Whitgifte This I acknowledge to be true ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you make this protestation before there be cause Whē any authoritie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the order of God reiect it and spare not but yet you must shew vs that 〈◊〉 of God to the which it is trarie ▪ Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 113. Lin. 5. Theodorus alone excommunicated Theodorete Bishop of Laodicea did by himselfe alone excommunicate both Appolinaries for keeping companie with that wicked Sophister Epiphanius as Sozomenus writeth Lib. 6. cap. 25. T. C. Pag. 148. Sect. 2. As for Theodoretus Bishop of Laodicea which Sozomene maketh mention of in his sixth booke I finde none such but there is mentioned of one Theodotus who is sayde to haue separated or excommunicated Apollinaris but it doth not appeare there that he alone of his owne authoritie did excommunicate him And there be great reasons in that Chapter to proue that he did it not of his owne authoritie for immediately after his heresie was knowne Damasus bishop of Rome and Peter Bishop of Alexandria caused a Synode to be gathered at Rome where his heresie was condemned Now for so much as the custome of Synodes and Councelles is when they condemne the heresies to excommunicate the heretikes (*) You vnderstand not the storie for at this time Apollinaris was not fallen into his heresie it is to be thought that that Councell did excommunicate him and that Theodotus Bishop of Laodicea did execute that decree and excommunication And in deed Sozomene doth so expound himselfe when immediately after he had sayd that he did excōmunicate him (a) Vntruth for these wordes are not spoken of Theodorus but of Georgius his 〈◊〉 who excomunicated Apollinaris the seconde 〈◊〉 he addeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is that he declared him excommunicate whiche indeede properly belongeth to the Minister when the excommunication is decreed by those to whome it apperteyneth which thing may yet better appeare by the maner of speach which is vsed in another place where speaking of Uictor excōmunicating Theodotus he vttereth it by this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is to promulgate or pronounce the sentence whiche was decreed by others Io. Whitgifte Sozomene in that Chapter doth plainly declare that both the Apollinaries were Both the Apollinaries excommunicated by Theodotus excommunicated by Theodotus not for any heresie but bicause they kept companie with Epiphanius that wicked Sophister Neyther was Apollinaris as yet fallen to his heresie as it is manifest in the storie for being vpon repentance absolued by Theodotus he was afterwarde againe excommunicated by one George the successor of Theodotus in his Bishoprike bicause he kept companie with Athanasius whome George being an Arrian coulde not abide In this time of his excommunication bycause he could not by any intreatie perswade George to receyue him into the Church againe of purpose he published an heresie for the which he was afterwarde condemned Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 25. in a Synode at Rome And therefore sayth the storie If George had receyued Apollinaris being repentant like as Theodotus had done before I suppose that this heresie had not bene raysed of him So that you are farre wyde and giue great suspition that eyther you haue not read the storie or else of purpose meane to delude the Reader The wordes that the storie vseth to signifie Theodotus excommunicating them be these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did separate them from the Church The wordes which you haue recyted be not spoken of Theodotus but of George his successor who also did excommunicate Apollinaris not both the father and the sonne as Theodotus did but onely the sonne as I haue sayde before he fell into his heresie and therefore before he was condemned at Rome So that he did not as you say execute the decrée of that Councell but did himselfe excommunicate Neyther doe the wordes helpe you one whitte by any meanes for what other thing can you gather thereof but that he pronounced the sentence of excommunication agaynst him euen as it is the maner in our Church though he be excommunicated by the same person onely which pronounceth the sentence And if that the right of excommunication had not béene in George onely why is there mention that hée woulde by no meanes be intreated to absolue him For I am sure that you will Pag. 147. lin 29. graunt and indéede you haue before so affirmed that absolution is of the same qualitie in this respect with excommunication and it is there witnessed that Apollinaris did oftentymes desire him to receyue him againe into the felowship of the Churche So that it is manifest that in those dayes the Bishop alone did excommunicate Chap. 1. the. 14. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 113. Lin. 9. Ambrose excōmunicated So did Ambrose excommunicate Theodosius the Emperour and is therefore in all stories greatly commended T. C. Pag. 148. in the ende As for Ambrose although he be greatly commended for excommunicating the Emperour yet he was neuer commended for that he did excommunicate him himselfe alone and if he did excommunicate him himselfe alone yet his fault was the lesse for somuch as he beeing desirous of an Eldership could not as it seemeth by his complaint which I haue spoken of before obteyne one And although the stories do not make mention that there were others whose
denyed but that the Synodes mighte excommunicate and who will graunt that suche as be orderly and lawfully excommunicated by manie shoulde be absolued and reconciled onely by one and yet in that they desyre this at Cyprians hands alone it argueth that the manner was at that tyme for one man to absolue but Cyprian refused to doe it for that it was a common cause and they hadde bin Excommunicated by the common consente of the Cleargie In the thirde Epistle of his fyrste Booke I fynde nothing that maketh for you or against me wherfore you must take the paines to recite his wordes before you Lib. 1. epist. 3. can deserue any credite Thus whylest you would séeme to saye muche you doe but abuse the Reader and in the ende saye nothing perteining to the controuersie Chap. 1. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 149. Sect. vlt. In Augustines tyme it appeareth also that the consent of the Churche was required for in 3. Lib. contra epi. Parmen the thirde booke against the epistle of Parmenian he sheweth that if the multitude of the church be not in that fault for whyche one is to bee excommunicated that then it helpeth much to make the partie bothe afrayde and ashamed that hee bee excommunicated or anathematised as hee calleth it by all the churche and in his bookes de Bap. contra Donatistas in diuers places hee is so farre from permitting the excommunication to one man that he seemeth to fall into the other extremitie which is to make the estate of the churche to popular and the people to haue to greate a sway For there he sheweth that if the moste of the people be infected with the faulte whyche is to be punished by excommunication that then no excommunication oughte to bee attempted for (a) An vntruth bycause a sufficient number of voyces will not bee obteyned for the excommunication By which testimonies besydes the institution of God and the practise of the churches in the Apostles tymes appeareth manifestly what hath ben the vse of the churches touching excommunication as long as there was any puritie in the churche Io. Whitgifte Augustine in that third booke contra epistolam Parmeniani sayth that he would haue When excommunication should be vsed excōmunication then vsed when the vse therof can make no schisme in the churche that is when the cryme for the which a man is excommunicated is such as al men for the moste parte do abhorre and detest so that the offender can not haue so many Aug. lib. 3. contra episto Parm. fautours as are able to make a schisme in the church for then sayth S. Augustine may this discipline be executed without the breache of peace and vnitie and withoute the hurt of the people when the multitude of the congregation of the church is free from that crime that is excōmunicated For then the multitude helpe rather the Bishop reprouing than the wicked partie resisting than it profitably absteineth from his companie so that no man doth so muche as eate with him not for raging enuie but for brotherly correction and then also is the partie himselfe stricken with feare and healed through shame when as seeing himself accursed of the whole churche he can fynde no companions amongst the multitude with whom he might reioyce in his sinne and insult ouer good men Wherby it is euident that S. Augustine meaneth him to be excommunicated of the How y e whole church is said to excommunicate whole churche not whome the whole churche doth ex officio excommunicate but whose Excommunication the whole Churche dothe well lyke of whose facte the whole Churche dothe deteste and whose companie and fellowshippe the whole Churche doth auoyde and eschue Surely if a man marke the woords of Augustine diligently he may well perceyue that Sainct Augustine giueth Ius excommunicandi to the Bishop for else why shoulde he saye that when the people be frée from that cryme they rather helpe the Bishop correctyng than the wicked person resistyng But the discrete Reader may soone vnderstande howe farre Sainct Augustine is in this place from confirming your assertion S. Augustine wryteth seuen bookes De baptisme contra Donatistas and will you not vouchesafe to name one of them vnto me nor yet to recite his words that I might knowe wherevppon you ground this popular kinde of gouernment falsely ascribed vnto him it may be that Augustine in your vnderstandyng attributeth more to the people than he doth in déede and it is not vnlyke but that lacke of diligent reading hath driuen you into this iudgemente of him But I will giue you a medicine Howe Augustine is to bee vnderstode in ascribing binding and l syng to the people for this disease euen out of these bookes that you name In the sixte Booke and fourth Chapter he séemeth to giue authoritie to all Christian people to remit and to retayne synnes and these wordes of Chryst Si cui dimiseritis peccata dimittuntur ei c. To whom soeuer you forgiue sinnes they are forgiuen vnto him c. to be spoken to all Christians but he openeth his owne meaning and teacheth you howe to vnderstande all suche lyke kynde of speaches for thus he sayeth in the same Booke and chapter VVhen sinnes are remitted vnto him that is truely conuerted vnto God August lib. 6. contra Donatist cap. 4. they are remitted by those to whom he is ioyned by his true conuersion for the same holye spirite dothe forgiue them whiche is giuen to all Sainctes ioyned in loue among them selues whether they knowe one an other corporally or not lykewyse when any mannes synnes are reteyned they be reteyned of those from whome hee that hath his sinnes reteyned dothe separate himselfe by dissimilitude of lyfe and wickednesse of hearte whether they knowe him corporally or knowe hym not Here you may learne what Sainct Augustine meaneth by his popular state and howe hée is to be vnderstanded when he sayeth that eyther the whole Churche or the people do excommunicate or absolue I woulde you had noted vnto mée where I might fynde this saying of Sainte Augustine that if the moste of the people be infected with the faulte which is to be punished by excommunication that then no excommunication oughte to bee attempted for bicause a sufficient number of voyces will not be obteined for the excommunication For I promise you I can not as yet come to the sight of it in those bookes of S. Augustine by you named neyther can you tell me as I thynke where to fynde it but this is your vsuall maner and custome In déed in his thirde booke contra Epist ▪ Parmeniani and second chapt he hath a place August lib. 3. con p. Par men cap. 2. somethyng lyke to this of yours but it is from your purpose neither doth it tende to any suche ende as you alleadge it for the wordes be these Re vera si contagio peccandi multitudinem inuaserit diuinae
beware of this doctrine the whiche vnlesse I proue to be the selfe same with the Papistes in substance let me susteine that punishement that is due vnto them whome I burden charge with forgetfulnes of dutie in this poynt Saunders in that trayterous booke of his wryteth thus That hath deceiued many Saunders the Rep er agree bicause they see kings to be Christians and to rule ouer Christians for they knowe not or at the least they will not knowe what difference there is whether thou rule ouer a Christian in that he is a Christian or in that he is a man For a king ruleth ouer Christian men but not Saunders bicause they bee Christians but bicause they bee men and bicause byshoppss be men in that respect he ruleth also ouer them c. And. T. C. in his Reply pag. 35. writeth on this Pag. 5. in the miast manner saying That the godlye Magistrate is the head of the common wealth but not of the churche meaning that particular churche conteyned in the common wealth whereof he is gouernour and in the same page he saith that the Christian Magistrate is but only a member of that particular churche And pag 145. he sayeth That the Prynce may well bee Pag. 〈◊〉 Sed 1. Monarche immediatly betwene God and the common wealth and not betwene God the church in that common wealth or any singular member in the church and in this place he would haue the ciuill Magistrate no more to intermedle with making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders than the ecclesiasticall minister should deale with ciuill diuers such nippes and pinches he hath at the ciuill Magistrate speaking no other wyse of hym than of a Turke or a Iewe and giuing him no more authoritie in the church of Christe and ouer Christians than if hee were the great Turke or wicked Nero. But I answere them bothe with the wordes of M. Musculus in his common places Titu de Magistratu Let Ethnickes and infidels whiche liue not in the vnitie of truthe but in the confusion of errour haue their diuers lawes Musculus and magistrates some prophane and some holy whose whole life is prophane whose religion is but ecclesiasticall superstition and in the temple only Christian people are altogether hely and dedicated to the name of Christe not in temples only and ecclesiasticall rites but in their whole life in euery place at al times in all things in al deedes and studies that according to the admonitiō of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eate or drinke or whatsoeuer he doth all may be done to the glory of God and Col. 3. whatsoeuer he doth in woorde or in deede hee doe it in the name of the Lorde c. VVherefore that distinction of Ecclesiasticall prophane lawes hath no place in it bicause there is nothing in it that is prophane seeing it is a people holy to the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie is holy his lawes are holy his sword is holy a reuenger of the wicked and vngodly whereby he serueth the Lorde being the chiefe lawmaker and iudge our members are the members of Christ and our bodies are the bodies of the holy ghost we are willed to glorifie God not in our spirit onely but in our bodie also 1. Cor. 6. Therefore this be sarre 〈◊〉 authoritie Pap t s giue to the 〈◊〉 in ec 〈◊〉 from the church of Christ that it should be partly holy and partly prophane holy before and prophane behinde lyke vnto an Idoll which sheweth beautifull before and behinde is full of filth and Spyders webbes Againe the Papistes giue to the Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters Potestatem facti and not iuris that is to sée those lawes executed and put in practise that the Pope and his Clergie shall make and to bée as it were their executioner but not to make any lawes or orders in Ecclesiastical matters for so writeth Saunders in his book before named Fol. 64. Although I doe not denye but that the knowledge of a Saunders facte that belongeth to the ecclesiasticall lawe may be committed to kings and Magistrates and before the ecclesiastical cause be determined the king may vse his authoritie to this end that there may be some quiet place prepared where the bishops shall cōsulte and that the bishops be called to the same place at a certein day and that in the meane time while the matter is in determining cōmon peace may be preserued euen among the priests them selues to conclude after the cause be determined and iudged by the priests the king may punishe him with the sworde which he carieth not in vaine or by some other corporall punishmēt which shal refuse to obey the sentence of the priests Therfore we do not deny but that kings haue something to do both before and at and after the iudgements of the bishops but in the office of iudging they haue no more to do than other priuate persons for they may well giue councell and declare what they thinke but they may not determine or define what Gods lawes or the ecclesiastical lawe doth require And doth not T. C. in this place affirme the Potestas facti not iuris ascribed to the magistrates same onely herein he séemeth something to differ y t if the ecclesiastical gouernours shall make any orders vnmeete the magistrate may driue them to better But what if they saye they be méete will stand to it as you do now in this fonde platforme will they not crye out vpon the magistrate saye that he is a persecutour a mainteiner of an vnlawfull authoritie of that which is against the glorie of God if he withstande thē as the authours of the seconde Admonition do in playne termes saying For though the orders be and ought to be drawen out of the booke of God yet it is her Maiestie that by her princely 2. Admonit pag. 60. authoritie should see euery of these thyngs put in practise and punyshe those that neglect them making lawes therefore for the churche may keepe those orders but neuer in peace except the comfortable and blessed assistance of the states and gouernours imcke in to see them in their countreis and vsed for otherwyse the church maye and must keepe Gods orders but alwaies in troubles and persecution which is like to light vpon vs except a reformation of religion or a direct prouiso for vs bee made for surely only this is God his order and ought to be vsed in his churche so that in conscience we are forced to speake for it and to vse it and in conscience and in reuerence of God we are forced to speake as we do of that reformation which we nowe vse not so much for ought else as to set out the deformities thereof that we might thinke vpon the amending of them M. Musculus in the booke and title before recited setteth out this Popish
149. Sect. 1. And what reason can you giue why you should not aswell all owe Scilicet the Communion booke of it by subscription as you say that you haue hitherto done by vsing of it in your ministerie Will you speake one thing and doe an other Will you not subscribe to that whiche you publikely vse and giue your consent vnto T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. The Admonition hath no such thing as M. Doctor chargeth the authors therof with that they dyd euer allow of the booke of seruice It sayth they bare with it and vsed it so farre as they might and therfore nowe when it came to the approuing of it by subscription they refused and there is no man which can not vnderstande that it is one thing to beate with a thing and an other to approue it and therfore to beare and to vse it so farre as might be may well agree with their refusall of subscription so that M. Doctors note is not worth the noting The Apostles did beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes addicted to the obseruation of the ceremoniall lawe yet they neuer allowed that infirmitie and they were so farre from approuing it by subscribing that they wrote agaynst it Io. Whitgifte They say they haue not only borne with it but vsed it also in their ministerie c. he that vseth a thing doth as much allowe of it by vsing as he could doe by subscribing But I will not contende with you about a matter of so small weight for neyther is their learning discretion or iudgement suche that the booke is better or worse for their allowing or disallowing of it They shew their natures bent to contention and vnreuerent estimation of the scriptures by abusing of them and that is all that can be gathered out of their booke The Apostles refused not to subscribe vnto such things as they permitted vnto the Iewes for a time neyther did they beare with any thing for their infirmitie agaynst the which they wrote If they haue done any such thing note the place Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 149. Sect. 1. If those persons by whome this booke was first authorised were studious of peace and of buylding vp of Christes Church as you say they were then you that seeke to deface it are disturbers of peace and destroyers of the Churche of Christ. They were singular learned men zelous in Gods religion blamelesse in life and Martyrs at their end for eyther al or the most part of them haue sealed this booke with their bloud But by the A note by the waye way this is to be noted that you confesse your selues to haue allowed that by vsing of it which you say is agaynst the worde of God T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. Those sayth M. Doctor which authorised this booke were studious of peace and of buylding of Christes Church therfore they that speake agaynst it which he calleth defacing are disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the Church So I will reason (*) Vnequal com parisons For in these poyntes they were not buylders vp of Christes church Gedeon was studious of peace and of building of the Church therefore they whyche spake agaynst the Ephod whyche he made were disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church We speake agaynst Images in churches and consubstantiation in the sacraments such lyke which Luther beeing studious of peace and of the building of the church did holde and yet we are not therfore disturbers of peace or destroyers of the church Although they were excellent personages yet their knowledge was in part and although they brought many things to our light yet they beeing sent out in y e morning or euer the sunne of the Gospell was risen so hygh might ouersee many things which those that are not so sharpe of sight as they were may see for bicause that which they want in the sharpnesse of sight they haue by the benefite and clearnesse of the sunne and of the light They sealed not the booke of seruice with their bloud as M. Doctor sayth for some that suffered for the truth declared openly their misliking of certayne things in it and as for the other they could neuer dye for that booke more than for the Lyturgie vsed in the French church or at Geneua For they receyued not the sentence of condemnation bicause they approued that booke but bicause they improued the articles drawne out of the Masse booke And if they had dyed for that booke as in deede they dyed for the booke of God yet the authoritie of their martyrdome coulde not take away from vs this libertie that we haue to enquire of the cause of their death Iustine and Cyprian were godly Martyrs and yet a man may not say that they sealed their errours whiche they wrote wyth their bloud or wyth this glory of their martyrdome preiudice those which speake or write agaynst their errours for this is to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of God Io. Whitgifte These be the words of the Admonition they saye that the Authors of that booke were studious of peace and of the building vp of Christes Churche and therefore vpon their owne words and confession I grounde mine argument This peace that they were studious of and sought to maynteyne by collecting and authorising this booke was a godly peace sought to be maynteyned by godly meanes and therefore suche as shall deface that godly meanes wherby they procured peace can not de iudged otherwyse than disturbers of the same peace Gedeon by making the Ephod did not séeke peace but rather glory for he erected Gedeons Ephod it to be a monument of his victorie Gedeon erected the Ephod for an other ende and purpose than God did appoynt it the Ephod that Gedeon made was the cause of idolatrie Likewise Images are expresly forbidden in the word of God there is a direct cōmaundement agaynst them so is consubstātiation also But the booke of common prayer is framed according to the scriptures appoynted to the true worshipping of God most repugnant to all Idolatrie Idolatrous worshipping and therfore these similitudes exāples that you vse be nothing like it is neither like to Gedeons Ephod ▪ nor maynteineth Luthers Images or consubstantiation but ouerthroweth them all Their knowledge was in parte in that sense that the Apostle speaketh Ex parte The prayse of the makers of the booke enim cognoscimus ex parte prophetamus VVe knowe in part and we prophecie in part c. But if they be compared vnto men I thinke for learning zeale godlynesse sounde 1. Cor. 1 iudgemēt most of thē haue not bin ouermatched by any that hath folowed And surely their learning iudgement was singular But no maruell it is though you make so small account of me poore wretch when you so basely speake of them Undoubtedly in cōparison of your selues I thinke you contēne
Admonition Pag. 183. Sect. 2. The name of Priest neede not to be so odious vnto you as you The name of priste would seeme to make it I suppose it cōmeth of this worde Presbyter not of Sacerdos and then the matter is not great T. C. Pag. 159. Sect. 2. Althoughe it will bee harde for you to proue that this woorde Prieste commeth of the Greeke woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet that is not the matter but the case standeth in thys that for so muche as the common and vsuall speach of England is to note by the word Priest not a minister of the Gospell but a sacrificer whiche the minister of the Gospell is not therefore we ought not to call the ministers of the Gospell priestes and that this is the english speach it appereth by all y e english translations which translate always 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which were sacrificers priestes and do not of the other side for any that euer I read translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a priest Seing therfore a priest with vs in our tong doth signifie both by y e Papists iudgemēt in respect of their abhommable Masse and also by the iudgement of the protestant in respecte of the beastes whyche were offered in the law a sacrificing office which the minister of the gospell neyther doth nor can execute it is manyfest that it can not be without great offence so vsed Io. Whitgifte I am not greatly delightedwith the name nor so desyrous to maynteyne it but yet a truth is to be defended I reade in the olde fathers that these two names Sacerdos and presbyter be confounded I see also that the learned and the best of oure English writers such I meane as write in these oure dayes translate this worde presbyter so and the verie worde it selfe as it is vsed in our english tongue soundeth the worde presbyter As heretofore vse hath made it to be taken for a sacrificer so wil vse nowe alter that signification and make it to be taken for a minister of the Gospell But it is méere vanitie to contende for the name when wée agrée of the thing the name may be vsed and not vsed without any great offence Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision Answere to the Admonition Pag. 183. Sect. 3. Pag. 184. Sect. 1. 2. The priest or priestes that translated this booke be not so skornfully to be taunted I thinke some of them haue ended their lyues in the fyre and all of them singular both in life religion learning speake not so contemptuously of so worthy men vtter not your hautie stomacks with so spitefull words towards your superiours betters least you proue your selues to be in the number of those of whom S. Paul speaketh 2. Tim. 3. vers 2. 3. 4. 5. and Iudas in his epistle vers 8. It is true that the priesthod of the old law is abolished but the place of scripture noted in your margent proueth it not For Hebrues 5. Paule doth shew why the high priest was ordeyned and what were his offices but he speaketh nothing of the abolishing of the priesthood I muse what you mean thus vnnecessarily to paint your margent and that with so little iudgement and lesse discretion The. 9. to the Hebrues is something to the purpose but needlesse Touching Popish priestes as you call them whether they ought to haue anye place in oure churche or no I haue spoken before where I haue also aunswered youre marginall notes concerning that matter You far ouershot your self in myne opinion when you set it down that you neuer read in the newe testament thys worde priest touching office to bee vsed in good parte What saye you to the fourth to the Hebrues verse 14. Seeing then that vve haue a greate highe Priest vvhyche is entred into heauen Iesus Chryst. c. And verse 6. For vvee haue not a highe Priest vvhyche can not be touched vvith the feelyng of our infirmities but. c. And chapter 5. verse 6. Thou arte a Prieste for euer c. And Apocalyps 5. 1. Pet. 2 ▪ But what shoulde I trouble you with a tedious the whole newe Testament where this worde Priest is taken in euill parte touching office Truly you are farre deceyued or else my Priest conce ning office neuer in euil part vnderstanding fayleth me I condemne that office and institution of sacrificing for the quick and the dead with you and I knowe it is condemned in the Scriptures manifestly and namely in the. 9. and. 10. to the Hebrues Io. Whitgifte Nothyng answered Matters concerning the solemnization of Mariage Chap. 4. The first Diuision Admonition The ninth As for matrimonie y t also hath corruptions too many it was wont to be counted a sacrament and therfore they vse yet a sacramentall signe to whiche they attribute the vertue of wedlock I meane the wedding ring which they fowlly abuse and dalli withal in takyng it vp laying it down In putting it on ▪ they abuse the name of the Trinitie they make y e newe maried man according to the Popish forme to make an idoll of his wyfe saying with this ryng I thee Abuses accidentall wed with my bodie I thee worship c. And bicause in poperie no holie action may be done without a Masse they enioyn the maried persons to receiue the communion as they do their Bishops and priests when they ar made c. Other pettie things out of the booke we speak not of as that women contrarie (m) 1. Cor. II. 5 to the rule of the Apostle come are suffered to come bareheaded with bagpipes and fidlers before them to disturbe the congregation and that they must come in at the great dore of the churche else all is marred Answere to the Admonition Pag. 194. Saect 1. The ring in matrimonie The fyrst thing you mislyke in matrimonie is the ryng whiche you call a sacramentall signe and vntruely saye that we attribute the vertue of wedlocke thervnto I knowe it is not materiall whether the ring be vsed or no for it is not of the substance of matrimonie neither yet a sacramentall signe no more than sitting at Communion is but only a Ceremonie of the which M. Bucer writing his iudgemēt vpon the first Bucers opinion of 〈◊〉 ring in mariage cōmunion booke set out in the tyme of king Edwarde sayth on this sort Subijcitur alius ritus vt ānulum c. There is an other rite and ceremonie vsed that the bridegrome should lay vpon the book the ring or any other signe or token of wedlock be it gold or siluer which he wil giue to his wife from thēce the minister takīg it doth deliuer it to the bridegrom he deliuereth the same to the bride with a prescript forme of words cōteined in the booke this ceremonie is verie profitable if the people be made to vnderstand what is therby signified as that the ring other things first layd vpon the book
with the fault of the print or by carping at the translation when the wordes being changed the sense remayneth or by alleadging that such a one or such another was of this or that iudgement as you for the most part hauing nothing but his bare name haue done All whiche thinges you haue committed in this booke ▪ but that you confute it by the authoritie of the worde of God by good and sound reasons wholy and not by peecemeale And if you bring the practise of the churches we desire that it may be out of authorities which are extant which are not counterfeyte and which were in the best and purest times And if you thinke that the credite of your Doctor ship or Deanry will beare out that which you cannot answer your selfe besides that * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is neuer shut ▪ remember M. Doctor that lighte is come into tht worlde and The reuenging eye men will not be deluded with nothing nor abused with visards neyther let it embolden you which peraduenture hathe made poli presume the more in ▪ this booke to write any thing vppon hope that no man dare answer it For neyther the Queenes Maiestie nor hir honorable counsell as we are perswaded will deale so sharply with those whome they know to be faithfull and lawfull subiects which pray that all the treasures of Gods wisedome may be poured vpon them neither haue we cause to thinke but that as the euill opinion which is in part conceiued of vs hath growen vppon false and vntrue informations whiche you and such other haue giuen in crying in their eares that we be Anabaptists conspired with Papists Puritanes Donatists bringers in of confusion and anarchy enimies to ciuill gouernment and I know not what euen so when hir Maiestie and their honours shall vnderstand how farre we are from those wicked opinions they will leaue that opinion of vs ▪ and rather esteeme of vs by that we haue preached taught and now write than that whiche other men report of vs being thinges which we neuer taught ▪ spake or so much as dreamed of Io. Whitgifte It is so farre from satisfying me in any point that it greatly confirmeth me in some thing where vnto before I did but incline Such is the weakenesse of your grounds Your request made vnto me is against all reason for how can you require that of The Replye requireth that of others which he him selfe woulde not performe me towarde you which you haue in no respect perfourmed towards me for firste you haue not set downe my booke that the Reader mighte perceiue how vprightly you deale with me secondly you haue passed ouer many thinges and left them vnanswered Thirdly you haue vnreasonably wrested my words and in most places you do nothing but wrangle you haue mangled my booke and so skipt from place to place that the Reader shall hardly perceine what you take or what you leaue to be short you haue vsed few scriptures and those vntollerably wrested How then can you require the contrary of me But I haue satisfied your request to the full I trust saue only I do not intend to learne of you how to answer what authoritie to vse but if the authorities and reasons that I bring shall be sound to be light they shall the more easily by you be remoued I depend not vppon the credit of my Doctorship or Deanry neither would I wish you too much to trust to the opinion of your owne learning and witte I say with Sainte Augustine Let scripture be compared with scripture reason with reason authoritie with authoritie cause with cause and let vs both according to the same be iudged I doubte not of the answering of my booke neyther do I feare it you knowe that Conference by writing hath bin often offered to the Replier I haue offered you diuerse tymes this kind of conference though not in thys publike manner I haue spoken nothing agaynste you before hir maiestie whyche your bookes and doings haue not proued to be true Hir Maiestie and their honours know what they haue to do the Lord blisse them with his holy spirit and in all their doings guide them Of the additions detractions and alterations made by the admonitors in both the partes of the Admonition T. C. Pag. 173. Sect. 1. Beside that often thne M. Doctor doth account the expositions and explanations corrections he ueth vs somewhat the lesse hope that he will correct his errours for that he purfueth the authours of the Admonition so harde correcting their very small and few slips whiche they haue made calling this singular destie and commendable hum tie amongst other reproches dalying and inconstancie when it is our profession euery day to learne better things For vnto what end should we liue if time if experiēce if reading iusing if conference should teach vs nothing And therefore when thinges are printed againe it is good and prayse worthy to polishe those thynges which are some what rud to mitigate these things which are too sharpe to make playne to giue light to those things which seeme darker and to correct that which is amisse I thinke M. Doctor should not be ignorante that wise men haue their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there second councells and those also wiser and better than their first as that sentence doth declare I will therefore say no more hereof but admonish M. Doctor that he receiue more louingly those whiche correcte themselues seing that the best defense to his booke must be not a correction here and there but a cleane blotting or striking out not an amending but a new making almost of his whole booke Other matter in his censures he hath almost none at all woorth the answering sauing that he hathe a place or two which toucheth the matters before entreated of Io. Whitgifte It behoueth such as will take vpon them to plucke downe that which is wel builded They whiche wil pul down the olde and place a newe platforme oughte to be v rie circumspecte and to make a new platforme to be well aduised what they do and assured of their cunning if this ought to be in humane matters and in externall affaires of the life of man how much more ought it to be in diuine matters and things perteyning to the kingdome of heauē I do not mislike that modestie and humilitie that is contente to be corrected and to acknowledge that whiche is ami e. But I can by no meanes allowe that pryde and arrogancie that presuming to condemne the whole state of a Churche and to prescribe vnto the same a newe platforme is by and by after through vnskilfulnesse and lack of discretion at the first constreyned to misselyke that newe platforme also and to p ce it and patch it like a beggers cloke with putting too and taking fro with altering and chaunging sometyme this and sometyme that like vnto foolishe and vnskilful buylders It behoueth suche as will take vpon them
beyng commaunded by the Magistrate to be vsed or not to be vsed they are no trifles no more than it was for women to come into the Church bareheaded or a man to pray hauing his cappe on his head after that S. Paule had made an order to the contrarie And therefore these scoffes and floutes And what shall our Bishops winne by it forsoth that they be maynteyners of tryfles and tryfling Bishops consuming the greatest parte of their time in these tryfles whereas they should be better occupied might with more commendation of your modestie haue bene well forborne They see your doinges tende not onely to contention but to confusion not onely to disobedience towardes the lawes of the Prince but also to dangerous errours yea to the ouerthrow of Religion therefore they are neither maynteyners of tryfles nor tryfling Bishops but wyse discrete vigilant and learned Fathers whiche seeke to maynteyne peace preserue good order defende the authoritie of lawfull lawes and in time suppresse erroneous doctrine You rather spende the time in trifles when you might be better occupied for you omitting all other necessary pointes of doctrine and Inuectiue Sermons profitable exhortations to good life stuffe your sermons and furnish your table talke with nothing else but with bitter inuectiues against those rytes as though they were matters of damnation and against those learned and discrete ministers of the woorde who according to their dutie vsing of them seeke in deede to beate downe Antichrist to plante necessary pointes of Religion in mens heartes and to teach Unfrutefull sermons repentance with newnesse of life which your vnfruitfull frowarde and contentious dealyng reioyseth the Papiste discrediteth the sounde and learned preacher offendeth the godlye woundeth the weake worketh contempte of Magistrates and superiours in the heartes of the hearers destroyeth that which other men buylde and finally doth good to none For what fruite can there come to the hearers by inueighing continually against Cappe Tippet Surplesse Ring in mariage womens whyte kerchers baggepipes funerall sermons mourning aparel c. Bishoppes Preachers Magistrates Prince These and suche lyke be onely the common places you entreate of T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 2. Upon the ninth leafe he hath sundry greeuous accusations and charges of disorder disobediēce and contempte against those which refuse the aparel and laboureth to perswade that they are great and weighty matters But his proofes were spent before Io. Whitgifte The proofes that I haue here vsed gawles you shrewdely will not be answered with such disdaine let the learned Reader consider of them and marke howe well you haue spoken for your selfe Ansvvere to the Additions c. Fol. 1. There is added Portuis for where before they sayde that our booke of Common prayers was culled and picked out of that Popyshe dunghill the Massebooke nowe vppon better aduisement they saye that it was culled out of the portuis and Masse booke It derogateth nothing from the booke of Common prayers bicause something therein is in the portuis and massebooke no more than it derogateth from the scriptures that some portion of them as the whole Psalmes and certain other portions of the Epistles Gospels and other Scripture bee in the same neyther are they allowed bicause they be in the portuis and massebooke but bicause they be either Scripture or moste agreeable therevnto They also adde in the firste reason that the comming of women in vayles to be Churched is not commaunded by lawe but yet the abuse to bee great by reason that superstition is growen thereby in the heartes of many and other are iudged that vse it not This is an argument of their former rashnesse but not worthy any answere especially being confessed to be without the booke For the. 120. Psalme is now quoted the. 121. Psalme which I haue also corrected before Fol. 2. For the. 26. of Math. is noted the. 28. And this also I corrected in answering that place Where it was before and minister a Sacrament nowe is added according to their appointmente to what purpose I knowe not There is also added in the same leafe these wordes are not the people well nodified thinke you when the homely of sweeping the churche is read vnto them Surely such flouting termes are vsed of none but of nodies in deede and suche as are more meete to be fooles in playes where they maye iest thā to be platformers of churches in whom wisdome learning grauitie godlinesse is to be requyred I know no Homelie entituled of sweeping the Churche one there is of repayring and keeping cleane of churches whether it edifie or no I referre to the wise and discrete Reader to iudge when he hath perused it Before it was in y t secōd reason for the very name Apocrypha testifieth that they Fol. 3. Apocrypha ▪ ought rather to be kept close than to be vttered Now it is for the very name Apocrypha testifieth that they were read in secrete not opēly This is some correction of their former rashnesse But of this matter that is of reading Homelies in the Church I haue spoken before I omit 2. Tim. 3. vers 6. which is now vers 19. 2. Pet. 1. vers 20. which is now vers 19. 20. 21. For these be not matters of any great importance they be quoted to proue a matter not doubted of among vs. In the former edition fourth reason it is thus written In this booke we are enioyned to receyue the Cōmunion kneeling which beside that it hath in it a shewe of papistrie doth not so well expresse the mysterie of this holy Supper For as in the old Testament eating the Paschall Lamb stāding signified a readinesse to passe euen so in receiuing it now sitting according to the exāple of Christe we signifie a rest that is a full finishing thorough Christ of all the ceremoniall lawe and a perfect worke of redemption wrought that giueth reste for euer and so we auoyde also the daunger of Idolatrie In the second Edition these wordes be thus altered In this booke we are enioyned to receyue the Cōmuniō kneeling which beside that it hath in it a shew of popish Idolatrie doth not so well expresse a Supper neither agreeth it so well with the institution of Christ as sitting doth not that we make sitting a thing of necessitie belonging vnto the Sacramēt neyther al firme we that it may not be receyued otherwise but that it is more neare the institution and also a meane to auoyde the daunger of Idolatrie Here is the signification Correction of sitting which they before made cleane dashed out as a thing vnaduisedly before put in It is also here graūted that the Cōmunion may be receyued otherwise than sitting with other circūstances wherof they haue now better cōsidered Surely this is a great alteration vpon such a sodaine I would hardly haue bene persuaded that these men would so sone haue discredited thēselues by theyr inconstancie But peraduenture
phansies they haue in this booke which they can not grounde vpon any scriptures but by wringing and wresting of them and in deede their seeking is to haue all things framed according to their fansies that they may be accompted planters and platformers of churches I omitte this that the author boasteth that he and many others will set thē selues against vs as the professed enimies of the churche of Christ For the matter is not great neither shall they in that point dea e an otherwyse with vs than the Anabaptistes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ther H e likes haue dealte with other Churches This shal be sufficiēt for an answere to y ◠booke bicause all other matters of substance are by me answered before in the former cōfutatiō Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered neither is this proclamation of defense solued A briefe ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets spread abroad of late I haue of late receiued three litle Pamphlets the first as it were a preface to the other two the second entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren The thirde An exhortation to the Bishops and their clergie to answere a litle booke that came foorth the last Parliament and to other brethren to iudge of it by Gods worde vntil they see it answered and not be carried away with any respect of men The preface cōsisteth of these pointes especially first by diuers exāples it is there declared that the wicked and vngodly of this world could neuer away with suche as would reproue them for their manifest sinnes and vngodlines Secondly that this is the cause why these twoo treatises whiche were lately written and imprinted in the laste Parliament time c. wer of so many misliked and the authors therof so cruelly entreated and streightly imprisoned c. Thirdly it raileth on the bishops and such as be in authoritie comparing them to false prophets and to Phariseis c. Last of all it cōcindeth with threatening that if they go forwarde in their synnes their doings shal be with more bitternes of wordes and plainenesse of speache throwen into their faces The first is nedelesse for who knoweth not that from time to time it hath bin the manner of such as were desperatly wicked not to suffer their sinnes openly to be reproued The second is false vncharitable slaunderous for the cause why the bookes be not estemed especially of the wise learned is the vntrue doctrine conteined in them mainteined with vntrue and v apt allegations of the scriptures and enterlaced with opprobrious termes and railing speaches tending to the disquietnes of the church and ouerthrow of true religiō The authors therof to be imprisoned not for telling any mā of his sinnes but for writing libels against this whole church of England against the booke of common praer against the ministery against y e sacraments finally against the whole forme and gouernmēt of the church by the whole consent of this Realme established and according to the rule of Gods word And with what face can you say that they be imprisoned for telling men of their sinnes where euer reade you or heard you that any of the Prophets or Apostles tolde men of their sinnes by libels Surely Libelling is no true way of reforming that kinde of dealing is not for the Apostles of Christe but for the ministers of Sathan T C. Pag. 177. Sect. 1. here he saith the authors of the Admomtion are not punished or their booke misliked for that it telleth of the faults in the church or of the sinnes of men but for y t it mainteineth false doctrine for that they preferred a libel for the doctrine it appeareth by that which is said what it is And if he would define what a libel were ▪ it were easy to answere vnto the other point If he meane bicause it was preferred without any name vnto it how will he answere (*) Forsoo h 〈◊〉 you make wicked comparison to the example of S. Iohn in y e Apocalips who reprehend ng the ministers o diuers churches ▪ did not (a) A manifest vntruth put to his name vnto his book And to the writer of the Epistle vnto the Hebrewes ▪ which was a singular instrument and did not subscribe his epistle wherin notwithstāding he sharply rebuketh diuers faults amongst thē And yet S. Iohn nor the writer to the Hebrues were not the ministers of Satan And if he call it a libell bycause it vseth some sharper speaches surely all men see that his booke deserueth then to be called a Satyr hauing for tart words bitter and for one twenty But in what respect soeuer he calleth it a libell he accuseth not so much the authours of the Admonition for preferring of it as diuers of the honorable house of Parliament which did allow it Io. Whitgifte The comparison is very vnequall and odious that you make betwixte the holy bookes of the Scripture indited by the spirit of God and reputed and taken as portions of the canonicall scriptures wherein only we haue to séeke the doctrine of saluation and these rayling rude vncharitable and vnlearned Admonitions And yet in the one of them that is in the Reuelation you are fouly ouershot for the name of Iohn setteth his name to the Apocalips both in the beginning end the author of that booke is expressed thrée times in the firste chapter and that with such circumstances that it cannot well be doubted who the author was though you would cauill about the multiplicitie of the name Likewise his name is expressed in the latter chapter of the booke wherefore you were not well aduised when you set it downe that S. Iohn in the Apocalips did not put his name to his booke He saithe in the. 1. cap. in the first verse Seruo suo Iohanni and in the. 4. verse Ioannes 7. ecclesijs quae sunt in Asia and a little after Ego Ioannes frater vester c. and in the last chap. Ego Ioannes qui audiui vidi haec The epistle to the Hebrues hath no opprobrious and slanderous words in it neither doth the author thereof séeke to defame or deface any body as the authors of the Admonition do If my booke be comparable to eyther of the Admonitions in sharpe and vncharitable speaches proue it vnto me by comparing them togither and surely I will like the worse both of my boke and of my self and confesse that I haue offended Although I might excuse my selfe in saying that I haue done it in the defense of the truth and vendicating this Church of England from such vntollerable slanders as they burthen it with If any of the honorable house of Parliament did consent to the publishing of it in that manner and forme that it was published which I am sure they did not as you vndutifully and vntruly charge them I will not excuse them and yet they cannot be said to be either the authors or the publishers of it neither can their allowing of
it excuse it from being a libell being not orderly in Parliament propounded but disorderedly I might say seditiously spread abroade in corners to the defamation of thys whole state and Church of England not to any reformation But to satisfye your desire that would so gladly know what a libell is I will tell A libell what it is you in few words An infamous libell is that that is written in verse or in prose to y t infamy slander of any man to y ◠which the author dare not set his name This is an infamous libel it most aptly agréeth to y ◠booke called an Admonition to y e Parliamēt So that by this definition your obiectiō also of y e booke of y e Apocalips of the epistle to the Hebrues is soone answered for al those bookes are not libells which are published without the authours name but those whiche are published to the infamy or slander of others to the which the authors dare not set their names An ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets The third commeth of the same spirit that the secōd doth that is The libellers fitly compared to the Pharisies of the spirit of arrogancie and malice for it compareth godly wise zelous learned bishops to idolatrous Priestes to Pharisies but indeede the conditions qualities of the Phariseis do most aptly agree with y e authors of these Libels their adherēts for the Pharisies did al that they did to be seene of men sought the commēdation Description of a Pharisie of the common people as appeareth Math. 6. 23. so do they The Pharisies when they fasted disfigured their faces these walking in the streates hang downe their heads looke austerely and in company sigh muche and seldome or neuer laugh the Pharisies strayned out a gnat and swallowed downe a camell And these men think it an heynous offence to weare a cap or a surplisse but in slaundering and backbyting their brethren in rayling on them by libels in contemning of superiors and discrediting such as be in authoritie to be short in disquieting the Churche and state they haue no conscience The Phariseis separated themselues from the common sort of men as more holy and contemned the poore Publicanes as sinners And therefore some learned interpreters thinke that they be called Pharisaei quasi segregati quòd vitae sanctimonia à vulgi moribus vita separati essent non aliter Fost rus in dictionar hebraico atque monachi quos Chartusianos vocant They be called Phariseis as separated and deuided from the commō sort in holynes of life much like vnto the Monkes which be called Carthusians And Iosephus saith that they were called Phariseis bycause they seemed to be more holy than other and more Lib. 1 cap. 2. de bello iudaico Lib. antiquit Tom. 2. lib. 18. cap. 2. Tom. 2. lib. 17. cap. 3. cunningly to expound the law Also he saythe thys to be one propertie of theirs that whatsoeuer their owne reason perswadeth them Id sequuntur pertinaciter that they stubbornly follow Agayne he sayth that they be astutum hominum genus arrogans interdum Regibus quoque infestum c. A subtile kynde of men arrogant and sometimes enimies to kings and rulers These men separate themselues also from the congregation and will communicate with vs neither in prayers hearing the word nor sacraments they contemne and despise all those that be not of their sect as polluted and not worthy to be saluted or kept company with and therefore some of them meeting their old acquaintance being godly preachers haue not only refused to salute them but spit in their faces wishing the plague of God to light vpon them and saying that they were damned and that God had taken his spirit from them and all this bycause they did weare a cappe wherefore when they talke of Phariseis they plucke themselues by the noses But Lord what a straunge time is this when such as they be dare thus boldly publish libells against their superiours for mainteining and executing good and godly lawes The conclusion of this preface is a stoute presumptuous and malapert threatning in my opinion not to be suffered But howsoeuer your pen and tongue walketh yet I pray you holde your handes or else c. T. C. Pag. 177. Sect. 1. 2. Whereas M. Doctor compareth vs with the Phariseys and saythe we do all to be seene of men and that we hold downe our heads in the streates and straine at a gn t swallowing downe a Camell bycause they are in all mens knowledge I will leaue it to them to iudge of the truthe of those things Where he saith we seldome or neuer laugh it is not therefore that we thinke that it is not lawfull to laugh but that the considerations of the calamities of other churches and of the ruines of ours with the heauie iudgements of the Lord which hang ouer vs ought to turne our laughing into weeping besides that a man may laugh although he shew not his teeth And so Ierome Ierome ad Marcell ▪ in effect answereth in an epistle which he wrote where vpon occasion that certaine vsed the same accusation that M. Doctor doth he saith bycause we do not laugh with open mouth therefore we are counted sadde And where he saith we separate our selues from all congregations and are ennimies to prince and that we would seeme to be holyer thā other these and such like slaunders are answered before And if there be any that refuse to salute godly preachers or spit in any mans face or wish the plague of God to light vpon them or say that they be damned we defend not nor allow of any such behauioure And it is vnreasonable that the fault of one should be imputed to so many and to those which do as much mislike of it as M. Doctor himselfe And what needed M. Doctor to bid the authors of these exhortations to hold their hands where do they in a worde offer to strike Belike hys tongue is his owne and therefore he speaketh whatsoeuer he listeth Io. Whitgifte I shewe how much more aptely the qualities and conditions of the Phariseys agrée to you and to your sect than they can doe to suche as the authors of those pamplets call phariseys I know you can both laugh iest and give when you are among your selues and so coulde the Phariseys doo but I speake of youre behauior in open places and before suche as do not so well know you It is vnlyke that you mourne for the ruines or calamities of any Churches séeing that you séeke with might and mayne the confusion of this by stirring vp schismes and contentions in it That which I speake of separating your selues from the congregation c. is well knowne to be true in a number of you and the contemptuous behauiour of some of you pretending moste zeale towardes some of vs argueth what spirite you are of and what your
zeale is euen that that Zuinglius doth charge the Anabaptists with when he sayth Ira est non spiritus quo se venditant The ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets c. In this portion entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren ther is no great matter conteined worthie of answering only the author doth excuse himselfe for taking vpon him that exhortation moueth the Bishops to deale brotherly with the authors of the Admonition First bicause they be their rethren secondly bicause they ought first to haue discouered vnto the world by the word of God howe truely or falsely they haue written Thyrdely bycause they do but disclose the disorders of our Churche of England and humbly desyre a reformation of the same according to the rule of Gods worde c. Fourthly that Papists lye abroade in their dioces vntouched c. Fiftly that many lewde light bookes and balades flye abroade printed not onely withoute reprehension but Cum priuilegio Likewise in y e same booke the author seemeth to iustifie the Admonitiō to condemne the lordship and authoritie of Bishops ascribing thervnto the stay hinderance of their pretenced reformation charging them after a sorte with mangling the Scriptures of God and with snaring the godly with such lawes as were purposely made for the wicked These be the principall contentes of that booke The first reason that is That they be their brethren might as wel be alleaged Bretheren may be punished for the impunitie of Anabaptists Arrians and such like who pretend the sinceritie of gods word and would be counted brethren yea it might as well be alleaged for many other malefactours who be also brethren and yet must not therfore escape vnpunished for their offences Shall not the Prince and the magistrate execute lawes vpon suche as breake them bicause they be their brethren in Chryst Beware of such doctrine and let not affection in priuate mens causes carie you headlong into publike errors But I thinke you are in this pointe deceiued for howsoeuer we accompte them our brethren yet they accompt not vs their brethren neyther will they acknowledge vs so to be as some of them both in open speache and manifest signes haue declared And therfore when the Bishops deale with them they deale with suche as disdayn to be called their brethren T. C. Page 177. Sect. 3. After M. Doctor confuteth his owne shadow for the exhortatiō doth not require that the name of a brother should deliuer the authors of the Admonition from punishment if they deserued it but desi eth that it might worke some moderation of the rigoure of it and compassion to minister to their necessities in prison He sayeth that the authors of the Admonition take not them for theyr brethren yes verily although vnbrotherly handled and for fathers too and so both loue them and reuerence them vntill which we hope will not be they shall manyfestly for the vpholdi g of their owne kingdome and profite refuse to haue Christe to reigne ouer vs in whome this fatherhoode and brotherhoode doth consist Io. Whitgifte Let the readers iudge whether it be one of their reasons or no let them also consider that which I haue before alledged out of the second Admonition pag. 35. then tell me whether they take vs for brethren or no. Can you so well please your selues in your own platforme y t except we admit it we refuse Christ to reigne ouer vs I trust he hath reigned ouer vs hitherto and shall doo to the end though your platforme be sunke to the bottome of the sea An ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets To their second reason I answer that I thinke they haue bin talked with and heard what they haue to say for them selues but their hautie mindes and good opinion conceyued of themselues will not suffer them to see their errours In this reason you alledge nothyng for them but that which may also be alledged for the Papists or any other sect of heretikes But it is an old saying Turpe est doctori c. How hapneth it that they themselues haue first defamed not the Bishops only but also this whole Church of England with publike libells before they haue vsed brotherly and priuate conference This is to espie a moate in an other mannes eye c. How true the thirde reason is may appeare in my answere to their Admonition but how true soeuer it were yet their disordered disclosyng by vnlawful meanes that is by libelling deserueth as much punishment as hitherto they haue had for the truth nedeth no such vngodlie meanes of disclosyng If Papists goe abroade vnpunished when by lawe they maye be touched surely it is a greate faulte and can not bee excused and I praye God it maye bee better looked to But thys is no good and sufficient reason for the impunitie of other Bicause some Papistes be not punished shal therfore no disordered persons be punished Or bicause some in authoritie winke at some Papists shall therfore no lawes be executed towardes any offenders Surely touchyng malice agaynst the forme and state of this oure Churche I see no greate difference betwixt them and the Papists and I think verily they both conspire together The same answere I make to youre first reason shall no booke be suppressed bicause some be not It is a faulte I confesse to suffer lewde Ballades and Bookes touchyng Ballets manners But it were a greater faulte to suffer bookes and Libells disturbing the peace of the Churche and defacing true religion Concerning the titles and offices of Bishops I haue spoken sufficiently before In manglyng and wrestyng of the Scriptures none offende so muche as doe the authors of the Admonition who in that point are comparable to the Papistes as may be seene by the learned and diligent Reader If they whom they terme godly do willingly offende against such lawes as were made for the wicked they are to be punished according to the lawes neyther are they to be spared bicause they pretende Godlinesse bre keth no lawe godlynesse for there is no godlinesse in breaking of lawes The thirde scroule called An Exhortation to the Bishoppes and to theyr Cleargie to answere a little booke c. is satisfyed I trus e for I haue as it is there required answered the short and peeuishe Pamphlet as they tearme it I haue disclosed their double and corrupt dealing theyr wringing of the Scriptures to serue their turne and haue declared the true sense meaning of thē I haue not bumbast d it with rethorike but in plain simple maner vttered my iudgement according to uncient fathers contemned o ned men the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures notwithstanding I haue in sundrie pointes declared the vse of the Church of Christ in tymes past and do vse the testimonie of auncient Councels and learned fathers whiche these vnlearned men vnlearnedly contemne a thing not heard of in any age or Churche nor allowed of
writing than you vse throughout your whole booke and truly if you had not these two letters T. C. for your name yet coulde I haue easily coniectured by the haughtinesse of the stile and contemptuous speaches who had bene the authour of the booke so well am I acquainted with your modestie and suche experience haue I of your myldnesse But it is well for nowe such as before haue thought that you had bene sine felle without gall and that butter would not melt in your mouth may perceyue that all is not vntrue that hath ben reported of you But what woulde they farther thinke if they shoulde compare you béeing that T. C. that I take you to be your othe which you once tooke when you were admitted fellowe into T. C. Item me buic Collegio fidelem beneuolum The othe which the fellowes of Tri. Col. in Cambridge do take at their 〈◊〉 futurum ei omnibus socijs ac discipulis atque etiam magistro eiusdem non solum dum in eo vixero sed etiam postea pro virili cum opus sit beneuolentiam opem praestiturū c. with this your good will vttered throughout your whole booke verily you might haue answered as well as you haue doon and had better regard both to your othe and to your brethren But to let that passe I doubte whether you meane good faith or no when you would make vs beléeue that you take vs for brethren for surely that doth not appeare either by the firste or Admonition or by this your booke if a man consider the fiercenesse and firie heat almost in euery lyne of them vttered against vs. In the second Admonition fol. 35. speaking of the Bishops which be nowe their confederates as you cal them these words in most spiteful maner be vttered And take them for better 2. Admo ▪ fo 35 who shall they are no other but a remnant of Antichristes broode and God amend and forgiue them for else they bid battell to Christ and his Church and it must bid defiance to them till they yeeld And I protest before the eternall God I take them so and thereafter will vse my selfe in my vocation and many moe too no doubt which be carefull of God his glory and the Churches liberty will vse them selues against them as the professed enimies of the Church of Christ if they proceede in this course and thus persecute as they do And therefore these be but wordes of dalyance when you saye that you cannot tell howe it commeth to passe that the name of a brother s aketh that courage and abateth that carefulnesse whiche should be bestowed in the defence of the truth In déede it ought to haue abated your outrageous and disdayneful speaches if olde rancour and desire of reuengement had not gotten in you the vpper hande For whether you deale with me lyke a brother or like an vtter enimie lette the indifferent Reader iudge What truth you haue on your side and how it is oppugned and slandered by such as you meane shall I trust appeare when your Replie is diligently compared with my Answere If you had ment the truth in good earnest you woulde haue delt more paynly in replying than you haue doone you would haue set downe my booke as I haue done the Admonition that the Reader mighte haue compared bothe together and not haue mangled it depraued it falsified it and vntruly collected of it as you haue done and almost nothing else as God willing shall appeare God graunt that it be not layde to your charge that you haue hindred Truth slaundered it and giuen the common aduersaries occasion to speake euill of it T. C. And as vnto other partes of the Gospell so soone as the Lorde openeth a doore for them to enter in there is for the most parte great resistance So in this part concerning the gouernment and discipline of the Church which is the order which God hath left as well to make the doctrine most effectual and to giue as it were a sharper edge vnto the preaching of the word as also to be a wall to keepe it and make it continue amongst vs I see there bee sundrie lettes which doe as it were with weapons stande vp to stoppe the passage and to hinder that it shoulde not be settled amongste vs. Io. Whitgifte It is true that there is greate resistance so soone as the Lorde openeth any dore to his Gospell and that by sundrie meanes and diuers kindes of men as the stories of the Churche from tyme to tyme declare and dayly experience teacheth it is also true that many vnder this pretence of right gonernment and restoring of discipline haue and doe disturbe the Churches wherin the Gospel is sincerely preached and the Sacraments rightly ministred for further proufe wherof and auoyding of tediousnesse I referre you to maister Bullinger Lib. 6. cap. 10. aduersus Anabaptist To Maister Caluine aduersus Anabaptist To Maister Gualter in his Epistle dedicatorie before his The pretence of restoring the right gouernment but a cloake for farther mischiefe commentarie vpon the first to the Corinthes Therfore this pretence of restoring the right gouernment of the Churche with so great disquietnesse of the same is but a couer to hyde the further purposes of Satan the enimie of the peace and quietnesse of the Churche T. C. With the whiche albeeit I wrestle hand to hande in this booke yet forasmuche as we haue all drunke so deepe of the cup of vntruth that we do not only stumble at blockes which other men laye in our way but oftentimes we gather lettes vnto our selues in framing a preiudice against the truth I thought good to note shortly what those stumbling blockes are and although I cannot remoue them yet to giue warning of them and to lende my hande to the weaker and simpler sorte to helpe to ouerstride them Io. Whitgifte What these stumbling blockes are and howe you will helpe the weaker and simpler sorte to ouerstride them we shall sée in the discourse that foloweth The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 2. The offences which are taken herein be either in respecte of the cause or in respect of those whiche seeke to defende and promote the cause The cause is charged fyrste with newnesse and strangenesse then as author of confusion and of disorder and laste of all as enimie to Princes magistrates and common wealthes For the fyrst besydes that it is no sufficient chalenge to say it is new and strange there is no cause why it should be counted newe which is confessed of those whiche myslyke it to haue bin for the most part vsed in the Apostles tymes nor why it should be esteemed strange which is vsed now farre and neere of this that syde the sea and of ne straungers but of those which are of the houshold of fayth And it shal more largely appeare in this boke that this is no innouation but a renouation and the doctrine
would not gladly sée or here I told you there that Iustinus Martyr speaketh of this matter in his second Apologie and in his booke of questions and that Tertullian speaketh of the same in his booke de corona militis It hathe pleased you in that whiche followeth to Neyther dumbe nor speaking persons cā please T. C. reproue me for translating into my booke other mens opinions and authorities and here though I haue quoted the places where you may find them yet is it also your pleasure to spende your gibing and iesting eloquence vppon me for not translating them Well I will deceyue your expectation and make them speake Iustinus Martyr in his second Apology sayth that they vsed in baptising to call vpon the name of God for suche as were baptised and after baptisme to carrie hym that was baptised Iustin. Apo. 2. to the place where the brethren be gathered togyther to praye bothe for themselues and for hym also that is baptised and in the ende of their prayers that they salute one another with a kisse Likewise he there saythe that when they celebrated the Ibidem Lordes supper there was vsed certaine prayers and thankesgyuing to the whiche the people sayde Amen Also that the Deacons did gyue to the people the bread and the cuppe and carrie them lykewise to suche as were absent In his booke of questions Iustin. lib. quae he sheweth howe that singing was vsed in the Churche and commendeth it and that they vsed not to kneele at prayers on the Sunday in token of the resurrection Dyuers other suche ceremonies and orders dothe he recite vsed in hys tyme not prescribed by the worde of God but appoynted by the Church whereof some now be abrogated bycause they be not so fitte for this time as they were for that time Irenaeus speaketh very playnelye in that Epistle whyche he writte to Irenaeus Uictor Byshoppe of Rome whereof also Eusebius maketh mention lib. 5. cap. 25. 26. In that Epistle he declareth the diuersitie of diuers Churches for the daye of Easter the tyme of fasting and such like whiche plainely argueth that the scripture hath not determined all things but left muche to the disposition of the Church Tertullian in his booke aduersus Praxean saythe that the Churche then vsed tern Tertul. Idem mersione in baptismo thirst dipping in baptisme And in his booke de corona militis although he recite some thinges whiche in tyme grew to be superstitious yet dothe he there playnely declare what his opinion is in this matter he reciteth diuers customs of the Churche then vsed whereof there is no mention in the scriptures he declareth that those whiche were to be baptised must firste professe that they renounced the Deuill his pomp and his Angels and that then they were thrice dipt in the water amplius aliquid respondentes quam dominus in Euangelio determinauit answering somewhat more than the Lorde hath determined in the gospell Likewise he sheweth that the sacrament of the supper which the Lord celebrated at supper and commaunded to all was then celebrated in the morning and ministred only by those that be the chiefe And in the end he sayth barum aliarum buiusmodi disciplinarum si legem expostules scripturarum nullam inuenies c. of these and such like orders if thou shouldest require a law out of the scriptures thou shalt finde none and a litle after he addeth Annon putas omni fideli licere concipere constituere duntaxat quod Deo congruat quod disciplinae conducat quod Saluti proficiat dicente domino Cur autem non a vobis ipsis quod iustum est iudicatis doest thou not thinke that it is lawfull for euery faithfull man to conceiue and appoynte at the least that which agreeth to God whiche is conuenient for discipline whiche is profitable vnto saluation seeing the Lord sayth why do you not of your selues iudge that that is right And in his booke De virginibus Veland He hath these manifest words Regula Idem quidem fidei vna omninò est sola immobilis irreformabilis credendi scilicet in Deum vnicum ☞ omnipotentem c. Hac lege fidei manente caetera iam disciplinae conuersationis admittunt nouitatem correctionis operante scilicet proficiente vsque in fiuem gratia Dei There is only one rule of faith which alone is immoueable and not to be altered to witte to beleeue in one God the omnipotent creator of the worlde and in his sonne Iesus Christe borne of the Virgine Mary crucifyed vnder Pontius Pilate risen the thirde day from the dead receyued into Heauen sitting nowe at the righte hande of the father and shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead by resurrection of the fleshe this lawe of faithe remayning the other thynges of disciplyne and trade of lyfe do admitte alteration of amendmente the grace of GOD woorking and profiting too the ende Cyprian Lib. 10. Epist. 12. mentioneth certaine rites about Baptisme no where spoken of in the Scriptures and Lib. 4. Epist. 6. he sheweth it to haue bene the maner of the Church then to receiue the Communion euery day which the Scripture doth not commaunde Cyprian Idem Thus you sée that these Doctors be not dumbe but can speake sufficiently in that matter for the which they are alleaged And leaste you should cauill bycause I saye that others also be of the same Iudgement recyting onely Saynte Augustyne I haue caused Ambrose Ierome and Basill to beare wytnesse in the same matter The wordes of Ambrose be these After that Churches were appoynted in euery place Ambrose in Ephe. and offices ordayned the matter beganne otherwyse to be ordered c. And after that he had declared the difference betwixte the Apostolicall Churche and the Churche in hys tyme touchyng Ceremonyes and gouernmente he concludeth thus Therefore ☜ doe not the writyngs of the Apostles in all respectes agree wyth the order which is now in the Churche bycause these were written in the firste beginnings Ierome writing ad Ierome Lucinium and answering hys questions touchyng fastyng on the Sabboth daye and dayly receyuyng the Communion sayth on this sorte sed ego illud te breuiter admonendum puto traditiones ecclesiasticas presertim quae fidei non officiant ita obseruandas vt à maioribus traditae sunt Nec aliorum consuetudinem aliorum contrario modo subuerti But this thyng I thinke meete briefely to admonishe thee of that the Ecclesiasticall traditions namely suche as doe not hynder faythe are so to be obserued as they are delyuered of oure elders neyther is the custome of one to be ouerthrowne with the contrarie custome of others Basill in hys 63. Epistle written to the Ministers of Neocaesaria recyteth the manners Basill and Customes aboute publike prayers and singing of Psalmes then vsed in the Churche and there playnely declareth what hys iudgemente is touchyng thys
question I omit that whyche he speaketh of this matter in his booke de sancto spiritu Idem where althoughe he gyueth too muche authoritie to vnwritten traditions yet dothe it there appeare that many thyngs were then vsed in the Church of Christ whyche were not expressed in the worde of God I myghte here alleage Socrates who Socrates in his sifte Booke and. 22. Chapter of hys ecclesiasticall historie handleth this matter at large and speakyng of Easter he saythe The Apostle and the Gospell doe in no place laye a bonde of seruitude vpon them whyche come to the preaching But men them selues haue euery one according as they thoughte meete in theyr countryes celebrated of custome the feast of Easter and other feastes for the resting from laboure and the remembrance of the healthfull passion c. and in the same Chapter No Religion obserueth the same rytes althoughe it embrace the same doctrine of them for they doe differ among themselues in rytes whiche are of the same fayth And so he procéedeth in declaryng the varietie of Ceremonyes and other obseruances and rytes in the Churches whereby it is manyfest that by hys Indgement many things are committed to the disposition of the Churche whyche are not expressed in the worde of God And that the Churche hathe vsed thys libertie from tyme to tyme to the same effecte speaketh Sozome Lib. 7. Cap. 19. They he meaneth Policarpus and Victor thought Sozome it follye and not wythoute cause to be separated one from another for Ceremonyes or Customes whyche dyd agree in the principall poyntes of Religion for you can not fynde the same rytes and altogether lyke in all Churches no thoughe they doe agree together I myghte pester thys Booke and that you knowe well enoughe wyth the iudgement of all the auncient Fathers that haue any occasion to speake of this matter but these maye suffice to declare that I haue not vainely vsed their names for mutes on the stage Touchyng Councels I maruayle you wyll make any doubte of them whervnto Councels of things indifferent tende the moste of theyr Canons in matters of Ceremonyes and gouernmente of the Churche but to teache that the Scriptures haue not expressed all thyngs concernyng the same bnt lefte them to the order and appoyntment of the Churche I praye you where shall you fynde in the Scripture the. 13. Canon Ancyrani Conci de vicarijs Episcoporum eorum potestate or the. 15. non debere pr sbyteros Ancyranum ecclesiastica iura vendere and diuerse others in the same Councell or the. 11. Canon Concil Nencaes Nicaenum Neocaesari of the certayne age of hym that ought to be minister or the. 1. Canon Concil Nicaeni of Enuches the fourth of ordering Byshoppes the sixte of Metropolitans the seuenth of the Byshop of Ierusalem the twentith of standyng in the tyme of Prayer or the. 7. Canon Concil Gangren or the. 18. or 20. or y e. 11. 15. 18. 19. c. Concil Arelatens Gangrense Arelatens But what shoulde I trouble the reader wyth suche particular rehearsals of so manye Councels whiche haue made suche a number of Canons concernyng suche matters as muste be ordered in the Churche whereof the Scripture hath particularly determyned nothyng is it not therefore manyfest that Councels both generall and prouinciall by their actes declare that touchyng Cer monyes discipline and gouernment of the Churche many things are lefte to the discretion of the Church whiche be not expressed in the Scriptures And whereas you charge me for not alleaging of Scriptures if I woulde Scriptures of things indifferent wythoute discretion cyte places nothyng pertayning to the purpose as you hytherto haue done I coulde vse a number but I had rather haue one texte to my purpose than a hundred wroong and wrested as yours be Howebeit there is no cause why you shoulde as yet complayne for hitherto I haue alleaged moe than you haue answered To the. 1. Cor. 14. as yet vnanswered I maye ioyne that which the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Cor. 11. 2. Apostle sayth 1. Cor. 11. Quemadmodùm tradidi vobis instituta tenetis You keepe the ordinances as I delyuered them to you The whych wordes Maister Caluine expoundyng sayth on thys sorte I doe not denye but that there were some traditions of the Apostles Caluine not written but I doe not graunt them to haue beene taken as partes of doctrine or necessarie vnto saluation VVhat then euen suche as dyd pertayne to order and pollicie For vve knovve that euerie Churche hathe libertie to ordayne and appoint suche a forme of gouernment as is apte and profitable for it bycause the Lorde therein hath prescribed no certainetie So Paule the firste founder of the Church of Corinthe dyd also frame it wyth honest and godly institutions that all things might there be done decently ▪ and in order And that also which is in the end of the Chapter Other things wyll I set in order when I come Wherevpon the same Maister 1. Cor. 11. 34. Caluine Caluine sayth But let suche toyes passe seyng that it is certaine that Paule speaketh but of externall comelynesse the vvhiche as it is put in the libertie of the Churche so it is to be appoynted accordyng to the tyme places and persons In déede I glory not in wordes so muche of the Scriptures as yeu d ee but I truste that I haue as sure grounde there for anye thyng that I haue affyrmed as you haue and muche more else woulde I be sorye It is not beasting of the Scriptures in wordes and falsely applying of them that can cary away the matter with those that be learned and wyse you knowe what Maister Caluine saythe of the Anabaptists in hys Booke written against them Quià verò nulla specie illustriore seduci possunt miseri Caluin aduersus Anabap. Why the Anabaptists alwayes pretended the worde of God Christiani c. But bicause the wofull Christians whiche with a zeale doe followe God can not by any other more notable shewe be seduced than when the worde of God is pretended the Anabaptistes agaynst whome we write haue that euermore in their mouthe and alwayes talke of it And yet in lawfull matters not expressed in the Scriptures I knowe not to whome we shoulde resorte to knowe the vse and antiquitie of them but to the Councels stories and doctors The opinion of S. Augustine of things indifferent Chap. 3. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 23. Sect. 1. That notable learned Father Augustine hathe diuerse sayings Augustin touchyng thys matter worthy to be noted In his Epistle ad Casulanum 86. he sayth thus In his rebus de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt in those thyngs vvherein the holy Scripture hathe determined no certainetie the custome of the people of God the traditions or decrees of our forefathers are