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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41780	Hear the church, or, An appeal to the mother of us all to all the baptized believers in England, exhorting them to stedfastness in the truth, according to the scriptures : together with some farther considerations of seven queries, sent to the baptized believers in Lincolnshire, concerning the judge of contriversies in matters of religion : in three parts / by Thomas Grantham.	Grantham, Thomas, 1634-1692.	1687 (1687)	Wing G1536; ESTC R5931	41,980	66

prevail against our Church in the Case of Baptism whether we consider the Subject Manner End and Use of Holy Baptism Whereas The only Witness which is pretended by my Learned Adversary for the first Century is Dionysius the Areopagite mentioned Acts. 17. 34. Who is said to speak thus in a Book entituled Eccles Hierarch cult The Custom of our Mother the Church in Baptizing Children is not to be contemned nor to be judged superfluous nor indeed to be credited if it were not an Apostolical Tradition Truly this Author speaks not like a Man that was satisfied in this Point of Infant Baptism and such is the faintness of his Evidence that methinks he should leave a suspicion upon every man that reads him that he did not know what to say nor whereof to affirm but leaving every man to think of the Words as he pleases we will hear what the Learned have said concerning this Book Eccles Hirarch First They put it down in the Catalogue of Forged Writings and Cajetan a Papist denys that Work to be written by Dionysius Their Reasons are 1. Because he never makes mention of St. Paul in that Book who was the happy Instrument by whom Dionysius was converted and yet he extolls Hierotheus as his Master 2. Because he writes of many Orders of Popes Priests and Monks of which the first Age had none 3. Eusebius and Jerome in their Catalogues never make mention of this Book And Gregory the Great doth say it was not written by Dionysius 4. Illiricus hath ten very considerable Reasons why this Book was written long after the Death of Dionysius one is this The Author talks often of the Distinction of the Quire and the Church whereas saith he the Christians had no such Churches an hundred years after Dionysi●s's time This Author therefore will never bear so great a weight as to prove Infant Baptism to have been either taught or practised by the Apostles Being thus found destitute of all Antiquity in the first Age let us hear what one of their own Chronographers tells us concerning both the beginning of Infant-Baptism and the want of any Evidence for Infant-Baptism in this Nation till more then three hundred years after Christ Robert Fabian a Papist in his Chron. part 5. c. 118. fol. 105. tells us the Faith had endured in Brittain from the time of Lucius the first Christian King in Britain near upon the season of four hundred years and odd and then in the next Chapter he gives account of Augustin the Monk coming into England and how he prevailed with some Bishops to observe his Orders And in Fol. 107. he saith But for all this there were of them that said that they might not leave the Custom which they so long had con●inued without the Assent of all such as used the same Then Austin gathered a Synod to the which came seven Bishops of Brittains with the wisest men of the famous Abby of Bangor But first they took Counsel of an Holy Man whether they should be obedient to Austin or not And he said if you find him humble and meek as to Christ's Disciple belongeth that then they should assent to him which meekness they should perceive in him if he at their coming into the Synod or Council arose against them When the said Bishops entred the said Synod Augustine sate still in the Chair and removed not wherefore they were wroth and disdained him and would not obey to his requests Then he said to them Since ye will not assent to my Hests generally assent to me especially in three things The first is That you keep Easter Day in due Form and Time as it is Ordained The Second That ye give Christendom to Children And the Third is That ye Preach unto the Anglish the Word of God as I afore-time have exhorted you and all the other Deale I will suffer you to amend and reform among your selves But they would not thereof From this Passage it is very evident that Infant-Baptism came not into this Nation till about four hundred years after the Gospel was first Received here and therefore the Papists must needs fail of Antiquity here and must if they will do us right give place to the Baptized Believers not only in the Case of Believers-Baptism but also in respect of the denial of Baptism to Infants seeing these seven Bishops and the wisest Men of Bangor withstood Augustine the Monk in that point then as we withstand the Papists in that point now And as we have suffered many hard things even to the burning of our Bodies in Smithfield for bearing witness to the Ancient and True Baptism of Christ even so it fared very ill with those that withstood Infant-Baptism c. in the Days of Austin for Fabian relates how they were many hundreds of them murdered and Mr. Fox seems to lay the Fault upon Austin I conclude with these two short Arguments 1. The present Church of Rome cannot possibly prove her self to be the true Church of Christ Ergo the present Church of Rome is not the true Church of Christ 2. The present Church of Rome hath no true Baptism Ergo She is no the true Church of Christ Let the Papists defend their present Church against these Arguments the Grounds whereof are delivered truly in the precedent Discourses without which all they can say will signifie little for what Power soever the Church hath it is little to them unless they make good proof that they are the true Church of Jesus Christ FINIS * It is said of the Roman Christians that the Light of Piety shined in their Minds when they heard Peter but they were not satisfied with once hearing neither satisfied with the Vnwritten Doctrine that was d●livered but earnestly besought St. Mark whose Gospel is now in ure that he would leave in Writing unto them the Doctrine which they had received by Preaching c. Euseb Hist l. 2. Chap. 15. We see that the Church of Rome esteemed the Gospel in Writing above the delivery of it in Preaching though they heard it from Peter himself Sure they are not the same now as then for Tradition from whom it's hard to say is more now to them than the Scripture And the Scripture nothing to them but as delivered and interpreted by Tradition * The Principles of the Doctrine of Christ Repentance Faith Doctrine of Baptisms Laying on of Hands Resurrection of the Dead Eternal Judgment Christ as received in the Power and Order of these Principles becomes a Foundation to his Church in which respect the Principles are here called the Foundation also Mark 16. 15. Rom. 10. 17. Joh. 17. 3. Acts 2. 38. Tit. 2. 12. Mat. 28. 19 20. 1 Cor. 2. 2. Rom. 6. 4. Joh. 3. 3 5. Eph. 5. 26. Mat. 28. 18. Mat. 28. 18. Act. 2. 28. Act. 22. 16. Rom. 12. 13. Heb. 10. 22. Acts 2. 38. Act. 8. Act. 19. Gal. 3. 14. Mat. 20. 22 23. 1 Cor. 15. Acts. 17. 31. 1 Cor. 5. 10. Acts. 2. 40. Mark 1. 5. Acts 8. 36 37. Mark 1. 15. John 3. 23. Acts 8. 38. Mat. 28. 19. Acts 20. 7. Gal. 3. 13. Heb. 10. 12 14. Mat. 26. 26. 1 Cor. 11. 23 24. John 6. 35. 1 Cor. 11. 26. 1 Cor. 11. 25. 1 Cor. 10. 14 15 16 17. Mat. 26. 30. Dr. Willet Synops Papis p. 561. Acts 2. 27. Heb. 7. 24. This Catechise is Printed with the approbation of William Hide D. D. President of the English Colledge at Doway The present Baptized Believers only do hold to the old Religion at least in the Point of Sacred Baptism

question be about Christ and his Church there must we find them both or no where If any Man like not this Doctrine let him shew me if he can these lovely Objects without being beholden to the Scripture Some I have known to attempt this but with lamentable success being soon driven to a shameful silence and indeed the whole World must depart into utter silence as touching this great Mystery Christ and his Church unless the Word of God as it is delivered in the Holy Scriptures through Faith makes us wise in these great Concernments of Salvation 2 Tim. 3. 14. Let men alledge all the Authors in the World and all the Tradition that ever was if the Holy Scriptures must not be their own Evidence and so capable to command our Belief of them then for the same or rather more forcible Reasons then any Man can bring against the Scriptures all Authors and all Traditions shall be dumb and useless as to the production of the least iota of Divine Faith so that the Papists at the long-run must if they know how shew us their Church without Scripture or any Author and without Tradition also as I have formerly written unto you being provoked thereunto by seven Queries sent by a Learned Papist who in his last to me does undertake to deliver himself from this difficulty after this manner We may saith he prove the Church by the Holy Scripture and the Scripture by the Church and this by a Regressus Demonstrativus without a vicious Circle because we suppose them both sufficiently proved and prudently accepted for such by all the Motives of Credibility as Miracles Holiness c. by which Christ proved himself and his New Gospel But as for the Sense of the Scripture I have more than sufficiently demonstrated that the Scripture it self cannot bear witness for it but that this must be had from a Living Judge viz. the Church the Infallible Interpreter of Gods Word To this I answer briefly That is a vicious Circle out of which no man can lawfully deliver himself but must run in a Round without end and truly such is this Circular Argumentation of my Adversary he will prove his Church by the Scripture 2. He will prove the Scripture to be true by his Church and he will prove his Church true by the Scripture before the Scripture be proved true and he will prove the Scripture to be true after it hath proved his Church true This Meander is no way to be avoided that I can see but by suffering either the Scripture or the Church to be its own Evidence for his Demonstrative Regress makes his Case worse for by it they be both sufficiently proved before either of them be proved and both prudently accepted before either of them be accepted and which is most strange of all the rest these things are all done before the Scripture hath any sense known for of this he is the most of all confident that the Sense of the Scripture must be had from a living Judge viz. the Church the Infallible Interpreter of God's Word So that this is the Conclusion of the whole Matter The Scripture without Sense must prove the Roman Church and the Roman Church must then give the Sense of that Scripture which had no Sense before when it proved Her to be the Church here is indeed a Regressus but no such thing as a Demonstrativus Methinks wise men should consider that the Holy Scripture is its own Interpreter in a great if not the greatest part of it the New Testament being the best Interpreter of the Old Testament and of it self also in many places for Example It tells us in one place that the Heavens must receive Christ from the time of his Ascension till the times of refreshing shall come from the Presence of the Lord. Act. 3. 21. And hence we hold that no Christian must say that the real Body of of Christ which ascended to Heaven is upon the Earth till he shall be sent the second time for God shall send Jesus saith St. Peter because the Scripture tells us in another place That if Jesus were on Earth he should not be a Priest Heb. 8. 4. It is therefore as plain as plain can be that the Papists make void the Priesthood of Christ and contradict St. Peter himself when they tell the World that the real Body of Christ which ascended into Heaven is now really carnally corporally present upon the Earth that is upon their Altars and in the Hands and Mouths of their Priests and People as often as they celebrate Mass and consequently he is so far from being received into Heaven till the time of his second coming that he is according to their own Opinion received bodily upon Earth ten thousand times and in ten thousand places to his being once received bodily into Heaven Sure their Opinion is directly against the Scripture as sure as their Transubstantiation is directly against the best Sense and the best Reason with which Almighty God hath endowed the best of Men as has been clearly evidenced by many learned Discourses among which I would commend to your Perusal one lately published under the Title of A Discourse against Transubstantiation Printed this Year and sold by Mr. Aylmer at the Three Pigeons against the Royal Exchange Price Six Pence My Learned Adversary and indeed the Papists generally do urge us vehemently after this manner admitting that the Church is to follow the Rule of God's revealed Word in all her Definitions yet they hold it extreamly irrational that all that can read it should be his own Interpreter of it for so say they He will be his own Judge And as in a Nation where no Judge of the Law is appointed there can be no Justice but every man will be his own Judge so likewise unless there be a Supream Judge in Matters of Faith to wit the Church from whom no Appeal may be allowed there can be no end of Controversies c. This Objection is considerable to which I say 1. What my Adversary means by God's revealed Word I do not very well understand but I doubt he extends that Term farther than the Holy Scripture else I am sure enough the Church of Rome has no revealed Word of God to follow in very many of her Observations but to let this pass at present I answer to the Objection thus 2. It seems to be built upon many dangerous Suppositions such as these That we ought to rest upon the Sentence of a Priest for we must hear the Church out of his Mouth for the state of our Soul as on the Sentence of a Judge in a Civil Court for a matter of Debt c. and that we are no more bound to search the Scriptures for Eternal Life than to search the statute-Statute-Book for our Temporal Life nay here I do them no wrong for they will permit us to read the Statute-Book but they forbid us to read the Holy Scripture It supposes