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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A44973	An humble apology for non-conformists with modest and serious reflections on the Friendly debate and the continuation thereof / by a lover of truth and peace.	Norton, John, 1606-1663.	1669 (1669)	Wing H3402; ESTC R20176	79,882	174

Jewels but with us at least by many amongst us such kind of persons are as vile though not so common as the stones in the street In other Religions they account of men the more and the better the more religious they seem to be and the more precise strict and punctual they are in the observation of the Rules of their Religion So the Papists so the Turks The Turks account all Fools to be Saints and many amongst us account all Saints to be Fools and the greater Saints the greater Fools Quest. Are not Nonconformists more precise than wise in not allowing themselves and others the delights of Playes and other divertisments Answ Dr. Heylin in his Geography observes that the Protestant Ministers in France are so strait-laced as not to allow of mixt dancing The Nonconformists here are not all of this Judgement they did not do not use to enquire before persons approach unto the Lord's Table whether or no where when or how often they have danced whether they go to see Comaedies c. I my self have been asked whether Dancing was lawful I answered Dancing was lawful but whether mixt dancing was they could tell better than I If it was to them a motive or incitement to evil to them it was unlawful else I dare not condemn it as sinful I will not make more sins than the holy Scripture and the Light of Nature has discovered to be so As for Stage-Playes if they were reformd and regulated so as to have no cursing or swearing nothing of lasciviousness and wantonness nothing of impiety or prophaness no putting on of Apparel not belonging to be sex by the Actors I should look on them as one of the best Recreations only I would not have seeing of Playes be made a mans work or business and that which should be but a divertisment be a man's whole imployment But as they are frequently made and acted if we may believe reports the must have stronger Champions than I to throw down the Gantlet or take it up in their defence 'T is well known the Ancient Fathers of the Church and some reverend and learned men Sons of the Church of England have condemned them Dr. Reynolds Doctor of the Chair at Oxford and we are told a Conformist too wrote against them Dr. Andrew Rivet Professor of Divinity and Tutor to the Prince of Orange and one that remembred the condition of our Sovereign when in Exile in his last hours and Prayers is no friend to them And Dr. Fern afterward Bishop of Chester offered to joyn with some Presbyterian Ministers in declaring for the sanctification of the Lord's day and against Stage-playes in the late times Yet as for those that go to see them I do not I dare nor therefore judge them no Christians or no good Christians because sometimes they are seen in the Theatre though oftener in the Church I must confess that that inference I may see a Picture therefore a Play is but weak and dark and but the shadow of an Argument For those who condemn such Representations on the Stage do the like in a Picture that is they damn lascivious wanton Pictures Books Songs as well as Playes Again the seeing of a Picture good or bad hath not I conceive such a powerful influence on us as the acting or personating on the Stage hath We are not usually so affected by reading of a Book as by heating a Speech the voice and action speak louder and are oftner heard than a dumb shadow or a silent picture However to conclude this matter I think the Author of the Friendly Debate had much better have spent his time in hearing or seeing of Plays than in writing of that Treatise yea that he might as well and to as good purpose have gone about to find out the wandring Jew he speaks of as to find Evidence to prove the generality of Nonconformist-Ministers neither good Subjects nor good Christians Quest What then do you think that the Author of the F. Debate was not well imployed in writing these Books and in discovering the vanity and childishness of Mr. T. W's Writings or the falseness and dangerousness of Mr. W. B. his Books to the World Answ As for Mr. T. W. I have heard that he hath written divers useful Books and I suppose in that Book or Books criticised upon might have been found matter as well as phrases and some great as well as little things and if a man had a mind to carp and cavil at other mens works as the Author of the Debate doth he might pull some of the Fathers by the Beards and tell them also they have written very childishly All men write not in the same We and phrase or in the like method as all Cooks dress not the same joynt of meat with the same sauce and garnish not the dish in the same manner when they send it up And some Readers and Auditors like one way of writing or speaking some another else what need such variety of Gifts but all tend to the Edification of the Church The Scholar is taken with one way of preaching or writing the Citizen with another the Countryman with another Mr. Calvin Mr. Farrel Mr. Viret all three had their Excellencies one in this way and manner and another in that If the Doctrine which is preached or printed be sound and wholsome what though the stile and phrase be not compleat and polite If thy meat be good and savory what though not served up in a Lordly Dish I had rather have wholsome Food in an Earthen Platter than Poyson in a Golden Charger I suppose all Conformists have not the same low opinion of Mr. T. W. if it be true which I heard that one of them preached one of his Printed Sermons and that a Citizen his Auditor after Sermon went to him with a Thank you Mr. Watson for your pains Quest Doth not Mr. W. preach and print dangerous and poisonous Doctrines such as tend towards Commotion and disturbance of the publick Peace Answ If he do I leave him to apologize for himself I will be no Advocate in such matters And if he doth he is condemned by those of his own way I mean our Brethren of the Congregational Church Twenty nine Ministers of that Judgement as to Church-Goverment being in and about the City published a Renunciation and Declaration against the horrid Insurrection and Rebellion acted by Venner and his Confederates to which they subscribed their Names In conclusion of which they declare as followeth We cease not to pour out our hearty prayers for all sorts of Blessings spiritual and temporal upon the Person and Government of his Majesty both in our Congregations Families and Retirements and through Gods grace according to our Duties shall continue so to do our selves and to perswade others thereunto and to live quietly and peaceably in all Godliness and honesty And as to the Actings and Resolutions of Venner and his party they say The

a better man than ever he thought him to be there were so many good things charged upon him And another Presbyterian now a Nonconformist preaching to the same Auditors preached that Antichristian and Babylonian were terms sooner imputed or charged than proved But if the Nonconforming-Ministers or People were yet ignorant and to seek for scoffing and reviling language they might have a Dictionary of such hard words out of the Friendly Debate If there be in Private-meetings that use railing and reviling speeches as too many too often have is publick Congregations I would rather advise people to sit quietly at home if they will not go to Church than to go or step out of doors to learn their language I do not love a biting tongue and I take a black mouth to be as venemous in a man as 't is accounted wholsom in a dog And if there be any printed Book wi●h such railing speeches or phrases in them I will promise you it shall never have my Imprimatur without an Index expurgatorius in the next Edition Quest Is the Divinity of the Nonconformists a Phrase-Divinity and in case their Books and Sermons are not fill'd with foul language is there any thing besides fine words and new phrases in them Answ There was something besides words in the Old Nonconformists witness the writings of Mr. Dod Mr. Ball Mr. Hildersham Mr. Bradshaw c. And doubtless there is matter and that good matter and sound speech that need not to be ashamed in the Writings of Nonconformists of this Generation witness the Books written by Mr. Baxter Dr. Manton Mr. Caryll Mr. Allen Dr. Owen Mr. Pool c. they hold to Scripture-expressions and to the terms of sound words which they have received from the most serious solid pious Bishops and Doctors of the Chair Professors at home and abroad in former times yea the Nonconforming-Presbyterians and Congregational Ministers profess to agree with our Articles of Religion of the Church of England in all things concerning the Doctrine of Faith and Ceremonies And is all this but Phrase-Divinity The Author of the Debate and divers other of the present Conformists may as justly be charged for new Divinity new minted words in Divinity new phrases and modes of expressing themselves in Sermons and Writings and these too less conform to the language of the holy Scripture our own Articles and Homilies the Harmony of Confessions of the Reformed Churches and our ancient Bishops and Doctors The Author of the Debate though he seems to be the Bishops Advocate yet his Writings shew him more an Episcopian than an Episcopalian and 't is easie to see from what forge they have their new Divinity and new Theological Dictionary Quest. Were not the Nonconformists the cause of the strange and new Doctrines and Opinions and of phantastical words and phrases in preaching and writing Ans I grant the taking down the old Mound or Hedge and not setting a new one in the room was an occasion that many erronious persons like wild beasts did get into the Vineyard and that some strange Doctrines Phancies Phrases and Whimses were vented in the Times of War and late Confusions but I say that these things are not to be charged upon the Presbyterians for if they had had power to their principles and purposes they would doubtless have raised up a Mound or Fence against such Errors Fancies and Follies as strong as that the Parliament removed I have heard it observed that of all Churches no Church hath had fewer Heresies and Heterodoxies spring up or at least prosper in it than the Church of Scotland and that this was acknowledged by King James Quest Were all that took the Covenant bound thereby to endeavour to introduce the Government of the Church of Scotland into England because they obliged themselves to maintain and defend Religion in the Church of Scotland and to reform Religion in the Church of England Vid. Contin p. 168. Answ No. They engaged only in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might to preserve Religion in the Church of Scotland against the Common Enemy notwithstanding which the Scots might reform ought that was amiss or defective with his Majesties leave and consent in a legal manner And the English Covenanters were not bound to model the Church-Government in England according to the pattern of the Kirk of Scotland but according to the Word of God and the best Reformed Churches Whether Scotland or Holland or Geneva c. was the best Reformed Church was not determined And the English were not engaged in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might by the Covenant to follow the Model of any one of these or all the Reformed Churches in any thing disagreeing from the Word of God and in case a primitive Episcopacy that is Church-Government by a Bishop with a Presbytery as his Counsellors and Assistants prove most agreeable to the Word of God they were bound to set up onely in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might that Government in the Church of England Notwithstanding what the Earl of Bristol when Lord Digby hath written in his Letters to Sir Kenelm Digby viz. He that would reduce the Church now to the Form of Government in the most primitive times should not take in my Opinion the best nor the wisest course I am sure not the safest for he would be found pecking towards the Presbytery of Scotland which for my part I believe in point of Government hath a greater resemblance than yours or ours to the first Age of Christs Church But whatever was the meaning of the Imposers or Takers of the Covenant in those days I have heard an eminent Person a Doctor that had taken it though a Nonconformist declare That he was not bound by it to endeavour any other Reformation than what he had been obliged unto if he never had taken the Covenant that he is not bound to use any unlawful or seditious means or endeavours to bring about a Reformation That the Law of the Land is the Rule to judge by what means or endeavours are unlawful and seditious Quest Do not the Presbyterians play fast and loose and turn with the wind Was not the time once when they held Ruling Elders to be Jure Divino but now they hold no such matter Answ I believe the Scottish Presbyterians were and still are of that Judgement that Ruling Elders are Jure Divino but I knew few English if any that held that Office so save onely in a large sence as many Episcopalians now hold Bishops to be Jure Divino that is a lawful Government not repugnant to the Word of God However 't is said and that by no mean Scholar That Geneva did not first institute those Officers but only restored them And I have read that it was acknowledged by a great Prelate That the Church had in every Church certain Seniors to whom the Government of the Church was