for he saith as Maister Iuell alledgeth not onely the priest sacrificeth but also the whole company of the faithful But what maketh this for Maister Harding The priest and the people both doe sacrifice therefore is there no difference in the ministerye S. Peter saith you are a kingly Priesthood therfore is ther no difference in the function betwene the minister and the laye man True it is that the minister and the people do offer vp a lyke one sacrifice vnto God but that maketh nothing to Maister Hardings saying Thus we se while he hobbeth and roueth and shooteth at euery marke a lie he was an hypocrite when he was at the best and nowe is led forwarde still to be an open enimie Reade the .222 vntruth An other péece of thys marke is this that men and women make the sacrifice of the aulter and be Priests after the order of Melchisedech Of this reade the .158 vntruth The last péece of thys marke is yet woorst of all nothing else but malice slaunder and wickednesse here agaynst M. Iuell bicause he wryteth not one such woord and commonlye agaynst the truth of God which the wicked doe alwaye peruert And this is that marke that God is the author of euill and driueth men to sin What should I here aunswere but euen saye with the Prophet The scornful haue said We haue made falshood our refuge and vnder vanitie we are hid If euerye such euyll saying myght clayme an aunswere M. Hardings one Reioynder would require many volumes But for a sufficient contentation of the Reader I say in all M. Iuels booke there is no one such woord I adde further nor in all the bookes that euer were wrytten by any godly man of M. Iuels profession Let M. Harding or all hys companions in searching ouer theyr wrytings bryng but one letter whereby we may gesse that euer such a saying was ment and for my part let hys writings be approued If he can not doe this consider of hys religion He would not speake wyckedlye for Gods defence nor talke deceitfully for his cause If anye man require what our opinon is let hym reade any learned man intreating of the predestination of God or of mans frée wyll or for a better warrant let him reade the scriptures it selfe We say al that God made was very good He created man in honour and gaue hym frée wyll and man of himselfe gaue place to inordinate affections where hee might haue obeyed Gods woord euen as it is written He hath set water and fire before thée stretch out thy hand vnto which thou wilt And agayne God created man without corruptiō And concerning sinne we say through the enuy of the Deuill came death into the world Neither néede we make exception agaynst this authoritie bicause it is not in the canō For the Apostle doth authorize it where he writeth He that committeth sinne is of the Deuil For the Deuill sinneth euen from the beginning And in an other place Diabolus est mendax pater eius the Deuill is a lyer and the father thereof not as your friende Mayster Dorman doth interprete it and so was hys father before hym for that were in déede to make God the authour of euill which is the marke you talke of Now euen as the Deuill is authour of euil so we by his suggestiō haue the next cause in our selues which is an vncleane hart lyke as our Sauiour saith Out of the hart procéede euil cogitations c. Of God we say and we say againe and we preache it and we wryte and beleue it and in it we reioyce that God is neyther the author of euyll neyther yet would it should be committed The shepe goe astray without the shepherdes wyll The groate is lost and the poore woman would not so Christ woulde gather togither Ierusalem as the Hen doth hir Chickens but they would not But this we say that the wayes of God are not like the wayes of men that he should not know what thynges were to come He could not be deceiued in his own creature He did foresée the fall of Adam and by his omnipotency could haue made him stand For who can resist hys will He coulde haue made him so pure that he should not haue sinned euen as he hath now made his Aungels and wyll make the whole number of his elect that no man anye more shall take awaye theyr ioye from them And as we are sure this is Gods omnipotēcy so why he did it not we cā not assigne any cause but bicause he would not For we knowe he hath done al things that he woulde Yet a cause ther was and that a most iust and good cause For their is no iniquity with him And this cause he did knowe in his eternall secret counsell before all worldes for as much as all thinges are present with him To enter further into Gods councell and aske why he appointed such a course in which the reprobate both Angels and men shoulde fall away this were presumptuous folly Shall the pot say vnto the potter why hast thou made me so The Godly will staye here and in the feare and loue of God wil professe and beleue both that God ruleth all thinges with his mighty worde and yet wylleth he no man to sinne We haue so much corruption in our selues that we néede no further prouoking vnto wickednesse Now to Maister Hardings purpose thus much we saye that God permitteth synne and with longe patience doth suffer the vessels of wrath prepared to destruction but yet this permission we say doth appertayne vnto the will of God For he doth not suffer it eyther inforced or against his will neither yet doth he so suffer it that he doth nothing him selfe For he ruleth and gouerneth euen their iniquity He suffereth it not to rage at will but guideth it either to the punishment of the wicked as he oft punished the Israelites with the wickednes of straunge Princes or to the triall of his elect as it is well acknowledged of the prophet Dauid saying of Shimei he curseth euen bicause the Lord hath bid him curse Dauid yet God made not the malice of Shimeis mynde Likewyse where it is sayde of the destruction of Ierusalem that God brought vpon them the king of the Chaldeans God did not ingraffe in Nabuchadoneyzar his great cruelty but being bred in his own mind he brought it vpon whom it pleased him Therfore Christ saith all the heares of our head are numbred and with out Gods appointment ther shal not one of them perish This therefore is our doctrine God is no cause of wickednesse but men cannot apply their owne wickednesse but where it pleaseth God neither do they exercise their wickednes but when and how far his grace doth leaue them For plainer declaration of this we may compare the grace of God and the sunne If the sunne be ouer
it had neuer bene séene These hastie vntruthes haue yet little spéedy successe Let vs se the residue The. B. of Saris. That they were written in Greeke and not in Latine that they could be layde vp in secrecie for the space of a thousande fiue hundred yeare and more and no man misse them Harding The .20 vntruth They were knowne to the fathers Dering It was very wrangling to begin that vntruth which common sense doth teach vs had no falshoode in it to persue it that is great ouersight but to make two of it that is extréeme follie They were kept in secrecie sayth Maister Iuell these 1500 yeares and this is true they were not openly knowne as Maister Harding himselfe doth confesse therefore they were secrete and how could they haue béene secrete except some had hid them but why doth he not tell Maister Iuels tale hole They were not knowne saith he in these countries Maister Iuell himselfe as is aforesaide doth alleage Leo and Gelasius both Bishops of Rome and Bessarion a cardinall who all condemne the booke Reade the Replie good reader and thou shalt find it true and how could they haue done it if they had neuer séene the booke This wrangling this lying thys wicked Reioinder were it not that some ignorant man might beleue it it should not haue one worde aunswered But God deliuer vs from such contagious poison The B. of Saris. Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius sayth certaine other bookes are abroade in the name of Clement as the disputation of Peter and Appion which bookes were neuer in vse among the fathers neyther containe they pure and apostolicall doctrine Harding The .21 vntruth Saint Ierom is falsified Dering It is reported of Brutus that he was woont to say he had spent his time euill that coulde denie nothing M Harding perhaps to eschew this blame hath prepared himself when it pleaseth him to denie any thing The fault that Maister Iuell here findeth with Clement is that by the testimonie of Saint Ierom his bookes are not pure and apostolicall It is neuer a worde so saith Maister Harding Saint Ierom is falsified If Brutus were now aliue peraduenture M. Harding might be commended But bicause Saint Iohn hath bid vs not to beléeue euery spirite euery bold asseueration must not stand for true Let vs sée what Ierom himself sayth and we shall iudge the better whether Maister Iuels report be true or no. Thus he writeth The olde writers haue quite reiected these other bookes ascribed to Clement And Eusebius in his third booke of the ecclesiasticall historie doth reproue them Now except Maister Harding will say that the Apostles writing is condemned of these olde writers and catholike fathers or that Eusebius that good bishop of Caesarea reproueth their doctrine Why will he not haue his Clement to be accounted not apostolicall whom the old fathers reiect and Eusebius reproueth The substaunce of such vntruthes doe make the gatherer appeare either ignorant or euill disposed Harding The .22 vntruth Dering Here Maister Harding maketh one vntruth ioyntly out of Saint Ierom and Eusebius where Maister Iuel saith Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius saith thus c. M. Harding for the better multiplying of vntruthes saith first Saint Ierom sayth it not next Eusebius sayth it not thirdly they say it not Had he dwelt among the Lacedemonians for this great talke of vntruthes little reason in shewing them he should surely haue bene accounted for a babler If we graunt that his sayings are true yet are these thre but one vntruth and that not made by M. Iuell but by S. Ierom. Thus we sée when it pleaseth him he will not vnderstand neither the common phrase of speaking nor what is ment by plaine sayings Again when it pleaseth him he will vse more Logicke then either is true or honest Such a Proteus he is in his owne vnderstanding The. B. of Saris. Clement is condemned by Gelasius Harding The .23 vntruth It is not condemned by him Dering Nowe Maister Harding is come to his olde compasse He denieth he careth not what Nothing shall want a bold asseueration if his simple authoritie may proue any vntruth but let vs not trust him before we trie him so we shall knowe the better what Gelasius sayth His wordes are thus reported by Gracian We haue thought good to note certain bookes which are come to knowledge and ought to be auoyded of catholike people First the councell holden at Ariminum gathered by Constantine the Emperour the sonne of Constantinus by meane of Taurus lieutenant from thenceforth and for euer we iudge worthy to be condemned Likewyse the Iournall of Peter the Apostle bearing y e name of Clement Eight bookes are secrete vnlawfull writings Nowe consider with these wordes of Gelasius this booke which for his Masse sake M. Harding doth so much defende It goeth vnder the name of Clement so doth that which Gelasius condemneth It contayneth .viii. bookes and so doth that They are accoūted Apocrypha secret writings and so are the other Beside this Gelasius condemneth a booke called the Iournall of Peter and this Clement himselfe sayth that S Peter willed him to write that booke but yet vnder this title that it should be called the Iournall of Clement And to conclude those bookes condemned by Gelasius teach euill doctrine and so doth this Clement And shall Maister Hardings plaine wordes counteruaile so much likelihoode Well may those erre that néedes will be deceyued But among the louers of truth such vntruthes will be very odious The B. of Saris. Abdias was conuersant with Christ. Harding The .24 vntruth I say not he was conuersant with Christ. Dering Maister Harding may score vp his vntruthes after what sorte it pleaseth him but any indifferent man must needes thinke that Maister Iuell doth not falsifie his wordes when he layth them altogither euen as they are written If in repetition of any part of them he doe mistake the meaning such error deserueth verye little blame But bicause M. Harding is so farre driuen that if he should let slip euen the least aduauntage he shoulde sustaine great losse of his whole cause let vs examine all that is reproued and yéelde vnto the vtmost that may appéere faultie I say not saith he that Abdias was conuersant with Christ. But he sayth he saw Christ in the flesh and wrote diuers histories of the Apostles doings at which he himselfe was present of this to say he was conuersant with Christ is scarce worth the fault finding Yet maister Harding sayth stifly he onely sawe Christ in the flesh he was not conuersaunt with him By like he looked through the creuice with Eubulus when Christ helped Saint Basil to Masse and by that meanes Abdias could but sée him The B. of Saris. Lazius sayth that Saint Luke borrowed whole histories worde for worde out of Abdias Harding The .25 vntruth Lazius sayth not so Dering Here is first a very graue note in a weighty
of the handes and casting vp of the eyes to heauen and with your lamentable crying out of your Oos which you vse very commonly weening thereby to perswade the simple your stoute asseuerations your fauour of the common people and others that clap you on the shoulder your vaine Pulpet buzzing your Gloria patri at Pauls crosse all this hath made many a one beleue that M. Iuell was a great Clarcke a piller of the Gospell a peerelesse fellow But now that you haue sayd all that you and your whole side had to say now that you haue discouered that lay hid before now that your best stoare is laid abroade now that you haue made the world witnesse of the proofes you haue for your doctrine they that haue but meane skill behold a further weakenesse to be on your side then before they had conceiued Better it had beene for you ye had mayntained your opinion and estimation among your own deceiued brotherhed with silence and with your accustomed craking without shewing forth any proofes Dering Now is M. Harding come to his pretye solace with one Megabises a great man of little name in his own deuice lyking him selfe well forceth much his eloquence as if the Owle were the fairest bird in the wood But we shoulde doe him much wrong to barre him of his pastime that hath nothing else to comfort himselfe withall His cause is nought his bookes are contemned his credite is lost and that whych gréeueth him most of all he hath made an vnequall matche In these extremities what if he vse his tongue at will Megabises he both can do but litle harme The one doth but milke an hée Goate while the other doth holde vnder a syue It is now no time to spreade abroade anye cunning to prooue my Lord of Sarisbury is not learned as long as his Replye lyueth and it shall lyue till his aduersaries be confounded Neither his square Cap nor his Rochet nor his sightly state nor his Bishopricke shall at all commende him We haue the testimonies of his minde which God hath made so bewtifull that all his other ornaments are knowen to be to fewe yet concerning his good estate I doe aunswere with Salomon God ouerthroweth the wicked and they are not but the houses of the righteous shall stand For thys description of hys maner of preaching first it becommeth Diogoras better than a Diuine Then what skilleth it though Zoilus or Zerophanes doe scoffe at Homer Pardon me M. Harding if I say the truth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is easier for you to mocke at it then to doe the like But what meane you thus bitterly to raile at his preaching Why iest you at his lamētacion for the peoples disobedience Haue you lost both your cause and your learning togither Uerily whē your Pope was Deane of S. Paules there was then neither lifting vp of handes nor bringing downe of hartes neither crying out of Oos nor inward grief of Iis neither yet gloria patri nor mors praedicata filij You might heare the heauens harmonie for anie pulpet noyse yet loftye descant within amonge the Balamites organe pipings at pleasure and although no pulpet yet goodly chauncell buzzing I maruail you durst make mention of his preaching But such is the blind mans hap that séeth not his way by making haste goeth ouer his shooes ere he be aware in the mire Hardyng ¶ Howe little truth you haue for your side and howe many vntruthes you haue vttered by your replie partlye by this Reioynder and more largely by the labours of other men it shalbe declared Dering Nowe after this long a doe what proofe bringeth Maister Harding against this Replie for sooth he referreth vs partly to this Reioinder partly to the bird in y e bush that is to other proofes that shall come hereafter I knowe not well in thys case what to write If I shoulde vnrippe this Reioynder and shew all the faultes it hath then os impudentia a bande of Louanistes cry out in the ayre of lyings corruptions misconstruings alterations and a thousand such other Some sende ouer their pamfletes some returne their vntruthes some whet leaden hatchets some séeke reall presence some make blinde discourses some hunt out their Purgatorie some fight for their images some stumble on their rocke and suche as can doe nothing else cry beware of M. Iuell But truth must not be still for feare of the sclaunderer God giue vs grace to take héede of thys Reioynder in vttering of an heresie it is more talking thā the Turtle in speaking out the truth more dumme than a Fish in auoiding authorities more winding than the Serpent in resisting Gods spirite more hard than yron in substance an open market of all maner of euill We that sée it doe giue God the prayse that maketh his truth to shine through so many cloudes They that fauour their doings may bewayle wyth Andromache lifting vp Astionax handes Spes nullas habet Troia si istas habet Troy hath no hope at all yf it haue no hope but this Concerning those other proofes that shall come hereafter I can say but this pro boscide vnius abscissa monstratum est mori posse belluas we know by this Reioynder all your other bookes are soone aunswered Harding ¶ As concerning your aunswere to my preface it is lyke the rest of your booke all together voyde of truth and plaine dealing c. that you haue discouered our wants therein you speake vntruly Dering Now is M. Harding come to the defence of his Preface and as his manner is blaming M. Iuels whole writing reioyneth as hée séeth good where it liketh him best and first boldlye ynough denieth that M. Iuell coulde discouer anye wants on their side But alas this is but a bragge Is there no want on their side Why then doth he handle his friends so vngentlie Why turneth he them ouer to their owne defence Why dissent they one from an other If perhaps he say their Church hath no wants his owne fellowes are against him Scotus sayth the Churche hath somewhere the harder part Their Councels conclude some one against an other some against the Apostles them selues Their Popes haue extremelye hated one an other in suche sorte as neuer Turke or Infidell hath done the like Yea such is the impudencie of their Church and so little account they make of disagrement that they would make Christes Apostles teache one contrary to other The .6 Canon and the .40 Canon and the .50 Canon of the Apostles alow the mariage of priestes the .25 Canon forbiddeth them to marrye The .80 Canon of the Apostles doth straightlye charge and commaunde that no Bishop or Priest do debase him selfe to any worldlye labour and alledge for their purpose this scripture No man can serue two maisters And yet the cōstitutions of the same Apostles doe quite contrary and commaund that the Priests do labour vsing their own example of which some were
the Moonke was the messenger Now to quit these negatiues with which M. Harding is so well pleased with like negatiues we may well and truly ouerthrow all popish religion taking example of our sauiour Christes doing For he neuer alowed of their ceremonies He neuer celebrated his last supper alone He neuer ministred in one kinde He neuer made any vniuersall bishop He neuer named Transubstantiacion Masse Mattens Euensong Dirige nor Trentals He neuer went a procession with cope crosse or candlesticke He neuer â—ensed Image nor sang Latin seruice He neuer went to shrift nor sat in confession He neuer preached of Purgatorie nor pardons He neuer honored Saintes nor praied for the dead He neuer fasted Friday Uigil Lent nor Aduent He neuer hallowed Churche nor chalice ashes nor palmes candels nor bels He neuer made holy water nor holy bread He neuer wore Rochet nor Tippet He neuer had Crosse nor Myter Corporas nor Portas shepebooke nor Massebooke Frankincense nor Peterpence wax nor flax nor any such trumperie And therefore by these negatiues we may well conclude that M. Hardings religion is not of Christes institution Harding ¶ Vpon this negatiue it liketh you well to dally and bicause say you it offendeth vs you wyll turne it on our side c. And when you haue made all your turnings you doe as muche for vs as if you gaue a Snake for an Adder c. What proofes we haue and how iustlye we confute your Obiections and Replies let our treatises be examined Dering Maister Iuels negatiue is this that they can not prooue by Scripture Doctour Councell or anye example anye one of these articles which are called into controuersie This negatiue misliketh them Therfore sayth M. Iuell we will take the affirmatiue and prooue their religion not to come from Christes Apostles This I trow is not to dallie but plainlye and vnfainedly to séeke 〈◊〉 the truth Yet saith Maister Harding this is a Snake in stede of an Adder in deede it is true the calling of these articles into question hath stoonge that whorish religion euen vnto death And that Aesculapius Adder that hath lurked so long in Rome for all his quicke sight is by this meanes discouered God be praysed for it for euer and euer Wher Maister Harding saith further let this matter be tried by treatisies I feare not such iudges for sure of all mens doinges their owne lyinges dreamings visions oracles coniurings and such deuises haue giuen their religion the greatest ouerthrowe Hardyng ¶ You report my wordes vntruly as your common maner is making men beleue although I sayd all these articles were of light importaunce c. The lightest of them is of weight to drawe you downe to the rufull state of damned soules if for maintenaunce of your priuate opinion you feare not to breake the vnitie of the church Yet as though I had said what you faslie report me to say you procede and scoffingly demauÌ„d whether ye may thinke that our religion encreaseth and vadeth waxeth and waneth as doth the moone Dering These be Maister Hardings woordes in his Preface to his aunswere Why treate you not of matters of more importance then these be of which yet lye in question betwene the church of Rome and the Protestantes As the presence of Christes bodye and bloude in the Sacrament of Iustification of the value of good woorkes of the Sacrifice of the Masse c. Thys obscure manner of speaking maye séeme to make light of these waightye mattters and therefore who so euer should say so of them deserued litle blame But héere Maister Hardings choler is to much inflamed bicause Maiste Iuell noting their inconstancie asketh whether their Religion encreaseth and vadeth waxeth and waneth as doeth the moone And hath he not thinke you good occasion to aske this question Doeth not Maister Harding saye in many of these articles that they be no keyes of their Religion Yet héere he saith if a man denie them when they be receiued they are of value inoughe to dampne him Where is his wit become What is so contrary to it selfe as this What is waxing and waning What is increasing and vading if this be none And what Christian eares can abide this saying that suche trifels as they be of them selues and such filthy whooredomes as they be now made of should condempne vs if we shoulde speake against them He paide not the price of soules that so easily sendeth them away from ther maister vnto Satan The casting awaie such scourings of the Romish vncleannes shall neuer doo it nay it is a witnesse vnto our consciences that we be the children of the highest Hardyng ¶ Concerning the rest of your aunswere wherin you treat certaine coÌ„mon places vtter much spite against the Pope c. against transubstanciatioÌ„ against inuocation of saints against aultars c. Prayer for the dead you condemne and shew no cause why c. I thinke good to let passe and contemne it Dering Now sure well done maister Harding where you can not reade skip ouer but take good héede least in your lâ—aping you hurt your selfe and do your cause no good If men shal vnderstand that you wil not alow the authority of Pope Nicolaus Pope Leo Pope Boniface Pope Sergius and the common Law all which Maister Iuell alledgeth you shall make the Pope that now is beshrew you and so peraduenture you shal get a curse and you shall make all good Christian people mistrust you Of transubstantiation aultars we will say more héereafter Prayer to saintes is now nighe forgotten You aske in the margine why we doe not aunswere the booke of Purgatory In déede now you come to the point This article is very auncient about .1900 yeares a gone Plato spake of it in his booke de animo where this your cleansing place hath his first ground foundation And therfore for our good and sufficient discharge in this matter I aunswere out of the same booke of Plato We meddle not with your booke of purgatory bicause we feare not our shadowes You know that y e yoÌ„g nouice in Philosophy feared not y e three hedded Cerberus the roring of Cocytus the rolling stone of Sisyphus and how shoulde we feare your painted paper walles of Purgatory Christ is our Sauiour God engraffe in vs a desire to be with him and for my part sith purgatory hath no graunt in Gods woord I recken it scarce woorthy aunswer Yet bicause you ar importune somwhat shall be sayd hereafter Hardyng ¶ You haue piked out or set some a worke to pike out for you all the tearmes and woordes vsed in my booke which a good man may iustly bestow in rebuke of vice vpon euill men c. Dering Héere Maister Harding is fallen into a very shamelesse veine of writing and thinketh good at large to excuse his own modesty The woordes in which he séeketh after it are these Thersites Goliath Heathens Publicanes sacramentaries Lucians scoffers rashe presumtuous ignorant péeuishe and
vntruthe Then thus hang these vntruthes If this last be true that the Gréeke Church dothe consecrate with prayers the thirde is true that it intendeth not Transubstantiation And the second is true that it hath no suche intent as the Church of Rome hath and the first is true that these churches are not resolued in this intent Now consider I beséeche thée good Reader what manner of vntruthes these are that notwithstanding their great number are yet so smal in value that if but one be proued true all .iiij. must be graūted Sure thou must néedes confesse that M. Harding who in his Epistle would so faine shoote at hobs and rouers yet at this marke he hath had so good deliuery that he hathe farre ouershot him selfe and his whole commendation is no more worthe than that praise in Horace of a babling Poete qui variare potest rem prodigialiter vnam which cā turne a true sentence into a great many lies For proofe of this last vntruthe on which the other hang we haue the plaine wordes of the Councel of Florence alleaged by M. Iuel where it is shewed that in the Gréekes mynisterie after the words of Christ pronounced this is my body they make this prayer fac panem hunc honorabile corpus Christi tui c. make this breade the honourable body of thy Christ. By this prayer it is manifest that these wordes this is my body being pronounced before did not worke Transubstantiation But bicause it hath pleased M. Harding in to great a zeale of his number to score vp vntruthes thus vnwisely least his friends should thinke the matter vnsufficiently answered we wil say somwhat of them in order euen as M. Harding noteth them and I doubt not but to the indifferent reader they shall one of them sufficiently confute an other First saith M. Harding the Church is resolued on the Priests entent But that is very false For the Gréeke Church and the Church of Rome haue not one intēt The Greke Church as is said doth consecrate with prayers The Church of Rome with hoc est enim corpus meum The Gréeke Church maketh more accompte of the worthy receiuing than of Consecration The Churche of Rome thinketh we ought to haue more regarde of Consecration than of the worthy receiuing I leaue out other differences which are almost infinite This is inough to proue our purpose Secondarily saithe M. Harding the Church of Rome entendeth not Transubstantiation What he entended in this vntruthe I know not For my parte wold God M. Iuel said héere vntrue and that that Romish Church would leaue of that presumptuous entent Thirdly saith M. Harding the Gréeke Church meaneth transubstantiation And this is very straunge for a learned man to speake suche repugnances First y t the church of Rome intendeth not transubstantiation Againe that the Gréeke Church doth intend transubstantiation And thirdly y t they two intende one thing when M. Harding with all his wrangling can make these vntruthes agrée sure we wil subscribe Now resteth a little to be considered of the Councel of Florence whether it may appeare by it that the Churche of the Grecians acknowledge no transubstantiation Thus it stoode When the Latines in that assembly required that they might entreate of transubstantiation The Grekes made answere sine totius orientalis ecclesiae authoritate quaestionem aliam tractare non possimus without the consent of all the East Church we can meddle with no other question c. Héere be the Reader neuer so simple he must thinke thus muche If this article of transubstantiation were so Catholike as they will make vs beleue how commeth it to be called so ofte in controuersie in generall Councell And againe if the Grecians did accompte it as Catholike and were resolued in it what meant they that they would not subscribe to so highe a point of Christian religion sure this was their meaning they knew this transubstantiation was but a Romish deuise and therefore they would ▪ not yelde vnto it And thus muche of these hasty vntruthes The B. of Saris. The .13 Diuision But if Cyril neuer spake word of the Masse how is he heere brought in to proue the Masse Harding The .101 vntruthe Cyril is not brought to proue the Masse Dering But he should proue priuate Masse or else what maketh he héere For of that the question is moued And this is a very hard case that M. Harding must lose his vntruthe or else confesse he speaketh not to the purpose The B. of Saris. Neither may we thinke that Christes body must grossely and bodily be receiued into our bodies Harding The .102 vntruthe We must beleue it Dering As maister Harding hath forsaken Gods Religion and is fallen againe to Poperie so it séemeth also he hath forsaken his learning and beginneth to make vntruthes with his follie This is one of the chiefest articles for which we haue forsaken their vnfaithfull Churche As ofte as we repeate this we conclude the thing which lieth in controuersie betwene vs. This is our professed opinion and vpon the trial of it by good and sufficient aucthoritie if it be proued against vs Maister Iuel is ready to subscribe Then what meaneth maister Harding Or what maner of vntruthe is this Or who can accompte it for true and plaine dealing when vpon good ground we shewe forthe our opinion and he scoreth vp the question for an vntruthe He shal doe well to reproue it before he make anymoe vntruthes of this Reade the .104 vntruthe The B. of Saris. S. Cyprian saith it is meate not for the belly but for the minde Harding The .103 vntruthe S. Cyprian saith not so Dering If M. Harding and his Popishe felowes had falsified the Doctors no otherwise than M. Iuel héere falsifieth S. Cyprian then in a little chaunge of words we should haue had their meaning faithfully deliuered vnto vs and bastard bokes such as they knew not had neuer bene ascribed vnto them But thanks be to God who hath now lightned vs least suche vngodly writings vnder godly names should deceiue vs as touching this vntruthe I graunt the words are not in that treatise entituled de coena domini But whether the author say the same thing in sense let him selfe witnesse M. Iuel alleaging no Latine words but folowing the sense saith thus it is meat not for the belly but for the minde The wordes in Cyprian are these Sicut panis communis quem quotidie edimus vita est corporis ita panis iste supersubstantialis vita est animae sanitas mentis As the common bread which we eate daily is the life of the body so this bread supersubstantiall is the life of the soule and the health of the minde and what is héere falsified by M. Iuel Or what is worthy blame in this allegation Yet M. Harding taketh this smal occasion to finde fault with his printed sermon with his replie and with them that as he saith