it be of like authoritie with the proper writtings of the Apostles Answere The first question was whether the Creed were made by the Apostles Whereunto hath beene rendred sufficient answere After which it is lawfull to make the second demand which is diuers from that Obiection The second dependeth on the first and so hath it been made Whether it bee thought sufficiently answered let the iudgement thereof be referred to the reader Answere Because it dependeth thereupon it is not therefore the same Question Whether they approoue the Creed onely because they know it to be conformable to the writings of the Apostles Or whether there any other cause which incyteth them to beleeue it Answere It is not onely conformable but the doctrine it selfe and for that cause doo they beleeue it and approoue it Question Whether a man be not bound to receiue it but for so much as hee knoweth it to bee the same writing or conformable to the writings of the Apostles as is aforesaid Answere The principall cause that may moue him that beleeueth it to beleeue it is the knowledge afore spoken of Question Although this be the principall cause they require an absolute answere whether there be not other sufficient cause to beleeue it in such wise as this first is necessarie Answere For the Creed and euery other thing we beleeue the principall cause is the knowledge we haue that the same hath bene left in writing or collected of the writings of the Prophets and Apostles And we for our part seeke no other reason but that of the faith which we haue Obiection They answere not vnder correction to the question which is whether to receiue the Creed of the Apostles this cause be necessary to know the cōformitie of the said Creed with the writings of the Apostles and that without the same none can or ought to receiue it The Doctors pray them to auoyd circumlocution and answere absolutely the one or the other And more simply to explane the question this it is to wit whether one ought not to receiue the Creed of the Apostles but because he knoweth that it is conformable to the Apostles writings Answere The matter considered after the doctrine of S. Paul that there is no true faith without knowledge and assurance of the word to beleeue it behoueth to know that it is the word of God Question It would be knowne whether they vnderstand this word to be written or not written Answere The word written and reuealed by the Prophets and Apostles which is the foundation of the Christian faith Obiection The Ministers doo then maintaine that before the beleeuing of the Creed or proposing it to be beleeued it behoueth to be instructed or to instruct an other in the writings of the Apostles and Prophets Now that is contrary to all the order euer holden in the Church and contrary to that which is contained in the forme prescribed for administration of the Sacraments in the Church at Geneua made by Caluin and inserted amongst his workes which beareth these words addressed to them that haue charge of the childe they baptise For as much as the matter wee haue in hand is to receiue this childe into the fellowship of the Christian Church yea do promise whē it shal come to yeares of discretion to instruct it in the doctrine which is receiued and approued of Gods people And after these words is inserted the Creed after which it is said they shall proceed to the instruction of the childe in all the doctrine contained in the holy scripture of the olde and new Testament so that before they propose the Creed to be beleeued they propose not to be beleeued that there is any word of God written nor what it is nor that therein contained to know the conformitie of the Creed with the same Also they place not the foundation of the beleeuing of the Creed vpon the knowledge and conformitie of the scripture but vpon the doctrine receiued and approued by the people of God As the auncient Church yea before the scriptures of the new Testament were written did wontedly propose both to great and small the beliefe of the Creed before they proposed the holy scriptures vnto them as by Christian antiquities appeareth And therefore the beliefe of a Christian touching the Creed dependeth not on the written word but vpon the word reuealed to the people and church of God Answere Touching the first article it is very necessarie that in teaching a childe or any other ignorant person the Creed of the Apostles they also forthwith teach him the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets seeing that which is contained in the Creed is no other thing but the selfe-same doctrine and that they are things not onely conioyned but also like if not in words yet at least in sence and substance Touching the second article they denie that that abouesaid is any way cōtrary to the established order in the church of Geneua or any other well gouerned Church And as touching the reason drawne frō the forme of the Baptisme vsed in the said Churches it followeth not by the alledged words and sayings thereof that Caluin proposed thē to exclude the Creed and to seperate the same from the writings and doctrine of the Prophets Apostles which is impossible but plainly to shewe that when he added that word hee meant therin to comprehend it and generally which the Doctors haue omitted in their allegation to comprehend that which remaineth in the holy scriptures after the deduction he had made of the points of doctrine particularly comprised in the Creed And for the other reason added that the Creed was proposed to those that were catechised before any booke of the new Testament was written they grant it But it followeth not therefore that it was not founded on the word and doctrine which the Apostles did preach although then not put in writing And likewise on the writings of the Prophets wherevpon is founded the doctrine of the Apostles For conclusion the Ministers put no difference as touching the sence betweene the word of God preached and written Obiection The Ministers it seemeth haue not well conceiued the meaning of the Doctors For the question is not whether the Creed bee conformable in it selfe to the writings Apostolike but whether it first behoueth to beleeue and vnderstand that the Apostles and Prophets haue put a doctrine in writing vnto which the Creed is conformable and that otherwise the Creed cannot bee beleeued And for more easie explanation the question is whether it be not possible for a childe being come to yeares of discretion or any other by the instruction of the father and mother or others to beleeue the articles of the Creed without being first instructed by them that there are certaine Apostolike writings vnto which the Articles of the Creed are conformable And whether to moue them so to beleeue it be necessary to know that conformitie Let the Ministers absolutely answere therevnto Answere Faith
Churches if it were not presently met with knowing also that it was a false reproach which they had put vpon the Ministers began to excuse them assuring the King and the Queene that the Ministers would alwaies be readie to conferre with the Doctors and to defend by the scripture the confession of their Churches in what place soeuer and before such persons as they would it should bee So that they were permitted to pray vnto God as they had required in the beginning of their conference and that they should there obserue the order and meanes which they had proposed or other better as they should thinke good to the end to auoyd all wranglings and the confusion of voyce and cries as is ordinarily seene in schooles and disputes of Sophisters and contentious persons My Lord of Neuers hauing vnderstood these words of my Lord the Admirall found them verie reasonable and perswaded as it is certaine first by the spirit of God and afterwards by a haughtinesse and generositie of heart which thrust him forward with a will to vnderstand the truth of each thing sollicited the King and Queene that by theyr commission and vnder their authoritie the said Conference might bee established And so wrought he that hee obtained of their Maiesties what hee demaunded By meanes whereof hauing aduertised my Lord the Admirall of theyr pleasures they consulted together of the order should bee held in the same conference And resolued in the end that my Lord De Neuers and my Lord the Duke of Buillon should bee the chiefe Iudges therein and that of the one side and the other should some Gentlemen be present to bee witnesses and beholders of whatsoeuer should bee done in the same And further that there should be two Notaries of both sides of the litle fort at Paris which should put in writing and signe whatsoeuer should be alleadged and proposed by the parties These conditions thus conceiued and agreed of among the said Lords were also accepted by the Doctors Vigor and De Sanctes of the one partie and by the Ministers De Spina Sureau of the other partie Who began to assemble themselues together on Tuesday the ninth of Iuly 1566. in the house of my said Lord of Neuers where in his presence and of other Lords which were with him after prayers made by the Ministers in the absence of the Doctors who because they would not be present had withdrawn themselues apart Doctor Vigor spake and began by protestation That the cause why hee and his companion were entred into Conference with the Ministers was not to be instructed in any point of Religion nor any way to withstand the Constitutions of the Councels and chiefly that of Trent by which they are forbidden to dispute with heretikes And that they for their part were wholly resolued to abide in the faith of the Romish Church but that at the request and pursuite of the Lord de Montpensier who for the reducing of his daughter Madame de Buillon had required the said Conference they were come thither to the end to satisfie him declare the holy zeale they haue to seeke and bring backe to the flocke those which are thence departed Wherevpon their speeches ended the Ministers speaking protested likewise that that which had led theÌ„ to conference with the Doctors was not because they doubted of any article conteined in their confession which they knew to bee drawne froÌ„ the pure word of God but that it was to maintaine the same against the Sophistries and cauillations of theÌ„ which would impugne it and to retaine Madame de Buillon in the good and holy institution which shee had receiued by the grace which God had giuen her Thus the protestations on both sides made the Ministers supposed that the Doctors theÌ„ following the intention of my Lord de Montpensier and the desire of Madame de Buillon should haue begunne the Conference by the Dispute of two points the Supper and the Masse But as they that will besiege and batter a Towne begin a farre off to make their Trenches and approaches to prepare themselues to the deciding and conference of the said two points they began to lay their foundation by the authoritie of the Church wherevpon they would establish the certaintie of the Articles of faith and generally of all the holy Scripture And therefore the demaunds and objections were proposed by the Doctors And the answeres giuen by the Ministers De Sainctes beginning and De Spina answering as followeth Actes of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris Question WHerevpon doo you ground your Religion Answere Vpon the word of God Question What do you vnderstand by the word of God Answere The writings of the Prophets and Apostles Question Doo you receiue for their writings all the bookes of the Bible as well of the olde as the new Testament attributing vnto all one like authoritie Answere No but following antiquitie wee distinguish betweene the Canonicall bookes and the Apocripha calling those Canonicall vpon whose doctrine the faith and all Christian religion is builded And those Apocripha which haue not such authoritie that wee may build or establish vpon them any Article of faith but are proper to teach and well gouerne the estate of life and manners of Christians by reason of the goodly and notable sentences which are comprised in them Question By what meanes doo you know that the one is Canonicall the other Apocripha Answere By the spirit of God which is a spirit of discretion and enlightneth all those vnto whom it is communicated to make them capable to bee able to iudge and discerne things spirituall and to know and apprehend the truth when to them it is proposed by the witnesse and assurance which thereof it giueth them in their hearts And as wee discerne the light from darkenesse by the facultie of seeing which is in the eye euen so may wee easily seperate and acknowledge the truth from vntruth and from all things in generall which may be false absurd doubtfull or indifferent when as we are furnished with the spirit of God and guided by the light which it lightneth in our hearts Question Yea but some man may boast to haue the spirit of God which hath it not And we see by Histories that all heretikes haue euer thought to haue the truth on their side and endeuoured to authorise their doctrine by inward â—euelations which they feigne to haue receiued of Gods spirit Whereby it may appeare what daunger there should bee to referre the censure of a booke or doctrine to the witnesse of the spirit of God which one particular man shal imagine or feigne to haue receiued in his heart Answere Very easie it is to auoyd such daunger in following the counsell which Saint Iohn doth giue vs in his first Catholike Epistle not to beleeue indifferently all spirits but to proue and diligently to examine them before wee receiue or approue what they propose And the triall to be made in
2. vnder the name of Oyntment and in many other places Obiection The places heere-aboue alledged make nothing to prooue that the Spirite was promised to all to iudge of the doctrine otherwise euen women and all faithfull Artificers should iudge of the doctrine as the Prophets and Apostles To the contrary whereof Saint Paul sayeth Nunquid omnes Prophetae c. Are all Prophets hee putteth downe expresly that the discerning of Spirites is to haue vnderstanding of the Scriptures and are gifts which are not common to all the faithfull but particular to some Answere The consequence which the Doctors gather is nothing worth forasmuch as the Spirit of God is more abundantly oft times comunicated to some then to others And some also are better exercised in the Scripture then others Touching the place of Saint Paul 1. Cor. 12. the Ministers say It maketh nothing against them forasmuch as the Spirit of prophecâ—e and the spirit of discretion are different gifts as it appeareth by the declaration which the Apostle maketh in the same Chapter The second dayes Dispute beeing Wednesday the tenth of Iuly THE Doctors required that their protestations the day before made might be registred which was such That they protested they would not enter into any Dispute of things receiued in the vniuersall Church from the Apostles time hitherto decided and determined by holy Eâ—umenicall and generall Councells holding them for certaine and indubitable and that all doctrine to the contrary was false But following the good and holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier and Madam de Buillon his daughter they were ready to make knowne by the verey exâ—resse word of God interpreted by the sayd vniuersall Church and Councells that their doctrine wherein the sayd Ladie was formerly instructed is sound and wholesome And that the instruction which hath beene giuen her to the contrarie is perniâ—ious and damnable And that this Conference is by way of instruction and not of Dispute The Ministers likewise protested that they assembled not with the Doctors for any doubt they had that whatsoeuer is conteined in their confessioÌ„ of faith is not certain and true and founded vpon the word of God as appeareth by the places of scripture quoted in the margeant of the said confession And doo beleeue that whatsoeuer is contrarie and opposite therevnto is damnable and to be reiected yea though an Angell from heauen should propose it And as touching themselues they were not come thither to be instructed in other doctrine then such as they follow and haue learned of Iesus Christ whom they acknowledge to be the onely maister and instructor of the Church It was declared by my Lord of Neuers that he desired after the obiections and answeres there should bee giuen a short resolution both of the one side and the other of that was conferred of the day before Following which remonstrance the Doctors say that to iudge of a booke whether it be the writing of holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a booke Canonicall from one Apocrypha or Ecclesiasticall a man must not rest on his owne priuate opinion or priuate and particular inspiration for as much as none haue ordinarie assurance that it is a true reuelation of the holy Ghost without reducing himselfe to the common consent and agreement of the Church vniuersall And also that God albeit hee had power to reueale and imprint in each one the true knowledge necessarie to saluation yet hath he ordained a certaine meane whereby faith is obtained which is a reuealed truth that is to say by hearing of the word of God preached by lawfull Ministers sent by the Pastors of the true Church as by the text of Saint Paul to the Rom. 10. and Ephes 4. appeareth If then the meane to haue faith and inward reuelation of the knowledge of saluation bee by the hearing of the word of God lawfully preached by the Ministers of the same according to the ordinary meane to be assured that a man hath inward reuelation It behoueth necessarily to bee assured that the word by which faith is obtained hath bene preached by the lawfull Ministers of the true Church And by consequence to be first assured of the church before his own inward reuelation following the meane which Iesus Christ hath followed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inward reuelation is when as it is reduced to the common consent of the Church And contrariwise that euery pretended inward inspiration particular and priuate is a false perswasion if it bee different from the common consent of the Church For the spirite of God is not particular but common And say moreouer that to finde out a false doctrine it behoueth to examine the same to knowe whether it bee priuate or common euen as our Lord hath giuen the true marke in Saint Iohn 8. saying Qui de se loquitur mendacium loquitur Hee that saieth any thing of himselfe and of his owne proper inspiration is a lyer And likewise as it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man prophesie against the Prophets of Israel that prophesie and say vnto them that prophesie out of their owne heart heare the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God Woe to the foolish Prophets which follow their owne spirit and haue seene nothing And afterward they haue seene vanitie and lying diuination saying The Lord saieth it and the Lord hath not sent them and they haue made others to hope that they would confirme the word of their prophesie And the verses following doo serue to the purpose Which false Prophets said they had an inward reuelation and the word of God They say also and let it be well wayed that the proppe of Religion grounded and assured vpon an inward inspiration is the foundation of many Sects in our time as of Anabaptists and Suencfildians who stay their doctrines vpon priuate reuelations and alledge the same texts to serue them for foundation of their doctrine which the Ministers yesterday alledged that is to say Ieremy in the third Chapter and Ioel. 2. and Saint Paul 1. Cor. 2. which Brentius and Bucer considering haue confessed that by the onely tradition of the Church wee are acertained of the bookes of the holy scripture in following the doctrine of the auncient Fathers as Saint Ierome who confesseth hee receiued by the tradition of the Church and by the same did knowe that there bee foure Gospels As much thereof saith Origen recyting the Canonicall bookes of the new Testament saying I haue learned by tradition that there bee foure Gospels And you shall not finde any auncient Catholicke which hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of bookes vpon his onely priuate and particular inspiration And Saint Augustine Liber Confess cap. 25. vseth these wordes Veritas tua domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admonens ne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur
Epistle of S. Iohn and others But in time the Church guided by the holy Ghost with common consent receiued indifferently for Canonicall all the bookes that bee in the Bible which consent continued by so many hundred yeares hath more authoritie then the sayings of one or two the which neuerthelesse spake not but of their owne time And further there is no comparison betweene the sayings of one or two particular men the determinations of Councels and consent of the Church as hath already beene sayd And it will be found that S. Ierom hath approoued these bookes as Canonicall And for the same will referre themselues to the Prologue which hee made vpon the bookes of the Macabees where he saith Touching the Hebrewes they are not Canonicall histories of the Church or other wordes to the like effect For the Councell of Laodicia they referre them to that which is contained therein It may bee they are deceiued in cyting one Councell for another For the Article beginning Touching the experience c. Although it be a question of fact yet it ceaseth not to be much auailable And if it be found as the Doctors haue proposed of which they doubt nothing the foundation of their particular reuelation is ouerthrowne Touching the Ministers conclusion the Doctors doo shew that they haue oft times complained they fell into by-matters They referre themselues to the iudgement of all men that their last resolution was deducted all of one thread continuing without straying in the same matter In which albeit they had found something wherein difficultie had beene had the Ministers so much desired to proceed to the conference of the chiefe pointes they might briefely haue admonished them of the said difficultie The Doctors vpon these articles had verily said something but to hasten the busines for the which they bee called they do forbeare to multiply words Where the Ministers shew that they receiue the 24. bookes of the old Testament with all the bookes of the Newe The Doctors say that that is not the point For all the conference they haue made hitherto that is to say by what rules men might discerne some bookes from other some and iudge whether they were of the Scripture or not was to raunge them in this point that they receiued them by the tradition of the Church which is iudge of the number of the bookes and by the same meanes when the question should bee of the vnderstanding of the word of God euen in the conference of the places of the same Scripture the Ministers and Doctors should haue such reuerence to the Catholique Church that she should be of both parts accepted for iudge of the vnderstanding of the Scripture which they acknowledg to haue receiued of the same wherof she is an infallible iudge and more certaine then the one or the other And notwithstanding the Doctors doo make offer to the Ministers that they will not vse at this time against them but those bookes onely which they receiue for Canonicall But when they shall fall into difficultie of the interpretation of some text or of the conference of many the Doctors esteeme it more reasonable to haue recourse to the Catholique Church and to the auncient Fathers then to their proper sence or that of the Ministers Answere For conclusion the Ministers do accept of the offer made them by the Doctors to decyde the pointes and articles of their Confession by the bookes Canonicall whereof they are agreed that is to say the 24. bookes of the Hebrewes and all the bookes of the new Testament protesting neuerthelesse that in the last writtings proposed by the Doctors there bee many things which they no wayes approoue and doo hope to confute as occasions shall bee offered and would presently haue done it had it not beene that they will shew against that imputed to them by the Doctors that they will not stray nor any way retyre from the conference of the points of their Confession Reply The Doctors reciprocally do agree to the Ministers in the said offer with this moderation to ad the authoritie of the vniuersall Church and the auncient Doctors for the interpretation and vnderstanding of the holy Scripture when they cannot agree The third dayes Dispute on Thursday the eleuenth of Iuly THE Ministers haue shewed what are the protestations which the Doctors haue made not for other ende to appeare in this Conference but to satisfie Madam de Buillon and not to bee instructed and otherwise informed of the pointes of Religion then they be And those which the Ministers haue on their part made also not to conferre with them for any doubt they haue of the pointes of their Confession whereof they bee wholely resolued By reason of which protestations they haue required that the first point whereof they shall conferre may bee that which Madam de Buillon hath publiquely required to bee decyded that is of the Supper and of the Masse that they may bee discharged of that also which hath beene imputed vnto them by the Doctors that they wandered and would not come to the principall point which is that aforesaid of the Masse but cōtrariwise that they fled away drew backe from the conference Finally that it may bee knowne who doo flye the decyding thereof They offer after they haue cleared that point to conferre with them if they please of all the other points which be in controuersie as leisure and time shall therfore be granted And doo also require to avoyd all confusion and such as happened in the Conference the day before that the Doctors may propose their arguments particularly each one apart and that the answers also may bee made vnto them particularly by the Ministers Ir els if they will propose all their arguments and reasons together that one whole day may bee graunted vnto them wherein they may doo that without any interruption conditionally that the Ministers may haue the day following to answere by order to all their arguments The Doctors say by that which is aboue written in the behalfe of the Ministers That it is easie to know they haue alwayes recoyled and yet do recoyle from conference of the things which they haue put in controuersie and they are maruellously abashed that they will not now permit the articles of their confession to be examined by order as the day of the first Conference they had required my Lord of Neuers my Lord and Lady of Buillion and other Lords and Gentlemen being present in presenting their said confessions contained in a little guilded booke making offer to the Doctors to examine them in order if they pleased which they found very reasonable And indeed the Ministers themselues hauing demanded of the Doctors whereof they would intreate departed yesterday contented to begin this day to examine the Articles of the Creed And as touching their speeche of the protestation that the assembly was made for the instruction of my Lady who desireth as they say in her absence to bee
of it proper essence So that it is impossible that a body should bee a body which is not measured and circumscript The first example they produce for confirmation of their saying is that a massie thing which naturally for the waight thereof declineth downward may be lifted on high Wherevnto the Ministers do answere that it may be done and that by violent motion But that this example nought serueth to ouerthrow that they haue said for as much as such things in themselues containe no contradiction and that they are not contrary to the essence of the thing where they happen For a stone which a man throweth vpward doth not therefore cease to be a stone neither by such a mouing is it not depriued of the waightinesse thereof To the example of the fire they answere that it is one selfesame reason of light as of heauie things and that without any corruption of their essence their naturall mouings may be changed by some force and violence done vnto them And as touching that they alledge of fire which contrary to it nature namely to heat and burne refreshed the three Iewes in the Babilonian furnace they answere that the fire therefore was nothing altered in the essence nor qualiries thereof which may easily appeare in that it spared the three Iewes and burned and consumed those which kindled the same Whereof may be inferred that the cause why it did not offend them proceeded not because the nature or qualities thereof were any way changed but onely because the action thereof was suspended And where they alledge that two bodies may be at one instant in one selfe-same place together and for proofe therof propose that which is written in S. Iohn that Iesus Christ did enter where his Disciples were the doores beeing shut the Ministers do answere that it is not so in the text but the text sheweth that the Disciples beeing assembled in a place Iesus Christ stood appeared in the middest of them Whereof can be no way inferred that hee entred into the place where they were without opening of the doores nor that hee pierced them to enter therein And very like it is that they were opened and shut againe as well as those which the Angell did open and shut againe when hee was sent to deliuer S. Peter out of prison and when likewise hee was sent for the Apostles deliuerance As touching that they propose of a grosse body passing through a straight place alledging the example of a Cable through the eye of a needle The Ministers answere that it is ill to the purpose alledged and is an argument grounded vpon a thing impossible They say moreouer that the Doctors haue all vnderstood the word Camilos vsurped in the scripture not for a Cable but for a Camell as to them it is manifest which are but meanely seene in the antiquities of the Hebrewes And as appeareth by that which Angelius Caninius writeth in the end of his Caldean Grammer And for the conclusion which the Doctors drawe from the precedent examples it is from the purpose and founded vppon presupposed antecedents and premisses by them brought which in the sence they alledge them for the reasons aboue declared they neither haue nor will confesse vnto them Where they say that what the Ministers haue said touching a body that it cannot be in two places at one instant were it the body of Iesus Christ it selfe was neuer written by any of the auncient Fathers nor proposed before the comming of Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza The Ministers do maintaine that it was And that S. Augustine in his Epistle to Dardanus saith the same in these tearmes According to this forme meaning the corporall forme of Iesus Christ we must not thinke that it is euery where And wee must beware least in establishing in him his diuinitie we take not frō him the veritie of his body And else-where hee saith That by reason of the nature and measure of a true body hee is in one place in heauen The selfe-same thing saith Therdoret in his second Dialogue as hath bene before alledged And so doth Vigilius in his fourth booke against Eutiches where hee writeth as followeth If the word and flesh be but of one nature how commeth it to passe that the flesh is not found euery where as the word of which word it was taken to constitute one selfe-same person and Hypostaly is euery where for when it was on the earth it was not in heauen and now that it is in heauen surely it is not on the earth And so farre off is it that he is there that we attend Iesus Christ to come according to his flesh whom neuerthelesse we beleeue as he is the word to be here on earth with vs. By these and other like authorities often found in the writings of the Fathers men may know that Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza are not the first authors of this doctrine and that it is falsly imputed to them for as much as they haue but drawne and word by word copied as it were the same out of the bookes of the auncient Fathers To that which the Doctors pretend that the forme of arguing which the Ministers haue vsed affirming some things to be impossible to God doth not derogate his omnipotēcie ouerthroweth the forme of the argument which the Angell speaking to the virgin vseth for cōfirmatiō of that which he declared vnto her that is that nothing is impossible to God The Ministers do answere that it is nothing to the purpose for as much as the question is neither of a thing which containeth in it self any contradiction nor that is contrary to the truth of God which be the two matters they haue alledged and yet do alledge for the expositiō of the omnipotencie of God And touching that which the Doctors do adde that God can change the nature and qualitie of things there is no man doubteth the same But whē that is done it behoueth also to auow that the things be changed that they remain not in their first nature And the Ministers say that it is not all one with the thing here proposed for as much as the Doctors wil haue a thing to remain in it essence and nature although the essentiall parts therof be changed altogether extinct and abolished Touching the limitation of the power of God towards his creatures there is none so presumptuous to attempt to limit the same in whatsoeuer he wil and which confesseth not that he may ordaine dispose of all his creatures in generall as it pleaseth him as a Potter doth of his earth And thervnto say they ought the authoritie of Ieremy to be referred as it appeareth very clearly by these Hebrew words L◠gippale Mimmecha col-dauar To wit nothing shal be hard to thee ô Lord. Concerning the danger which the Doctors pretend may come of the abouesaid answeres of the Ministers they answer that men of sound and good judgement wil neuer drawe thereof
the Priest in the Masse from the rest of the people is an abolishment of the Communion of the Supper and consequently damnable before God And to be briefe the adoration of bread and wine be it in the Masse or out of the Masse is an intollerable Idolatrie Two points yet remaine in the writing of the Doctors whereof the Ministers will admonish them The one is that the said Ministers haue neuer found in the scriptures that faith is a humane worke but that it is the worke of God and a gift which hee bestoweth vpon his elect The other point is that they confesse they cannot bring forth one auncient Author which hath said in expresse termes that one body could not be in diuers places at one instant for so much as the contrarie thereof seemed so absurd and straunge vnto them and so much against the reason and faith which all faithfull people ought to haue that they neuer thought such an opinion had found place in the heart of any man that was called a Christian The Ministers to ende this answere say that it will much more please them to handle the questions aforesaid then to dispute of the opening of doores of the Sepulchre or of the heauens as to their great griefe they haue done these dayes passed and that for two reasons The one because that the decyding and resolution of such questions cannot bee drawne nor gathered out of the scripture And the second because it cannot much serue either to the aduancement of the honour and glorie of God or the edification and instruction of his Church Thursday the 25. day of Iuly in the yeare aforesaid The Doctors reply to the writing of the Ministers sent vnto them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 25. day of Iuly about 8. of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. WHere the Ministers say that they doo great wrong to call them blasphemers seeing thereof they are innocent as Iesus Christ S. Stephen and Naboth to whome men falsly imputed such like crime The Doctors say that the Ministers therein doo imitate the good personages the Donatists who still complained of the great iniuries and slaunders which they endured said they of the Catholikes and yet men know by the histories how it was and how much they were like to Christ S. Stephen and Naboth as may also be knowne the conformitie of the said Ministers to such holy examples As much might the Anabaptists say to them of the Church called reformed when they call them heretikes And as much might and did Seruetus say who for his blasphemies was burned at Geneua reputing himselfe happie to be iudged by Caluin a blasphemer and to suffer for his doctrine the paines of death We must not therfore beleeue that the Ministers are not blasphemers because more boldly then all other heretikes they reiect the name of blasphemer but meet it is to examine whether their doctrine importeth blasphemie or not Now the Doctors say that there is no blasphemie worthy of more great execration then to denie the omnipotencie of God and no lesse it is then simply to denie that there is a God So that such deniall importes an Atheisme For to take from God that which is proper to his nature is as much to say as there is no God As it well pleaseth S. Basil writing in one of his Homilies intituled That God is not the Author of euill That it is no lesse blasphemie to say that God is author of euill then to say that God is not God In so much as to take away from God his goodnesse which to him is naturall is wholy to take away his diuinitie The like also may be said of the omnipotencie that whosoeuer denieth or diminisheth the same he denieth also his diuinitie The question then is to knowe whether the Ministers will abolish the omnipotencie of God not in proper termes for they seeme to confesse it but in affirming that the power of God is measured according to his will so that he cannot but that which he will and other like propositions contained in the precedent answere of the Ministers Whether the Doctors haue proued such propositions to containe blasphemies or no they refer them therin to euery man of sound iudgement who shal be any thing conuersant in holy scriptures and the bookes of auncient Christians which shall also be knowne by the Ministers friuolous answeres in their last writing to the Doctors obiections Who nothing maruel that the Ministers are deceiued in the nature of the omnipotencie seeing they erre in the foundation and know not wherein it lyeth and why God is called almightie For they haue learned of the scripture say they that God is almightie because hee can doo whatsoeuer he will doo and that nothing can resist him which is rather as a signe of the power of God But it is not that vnder correction wherein it consisteth for knowledge whereof it must be considered according to it obiect that is to say according to the things possible to be done so that there is nothing possible which God cannot do Now all without any exception is esteemed possible wherein is found no contradiction to be and not to be and that commeth not by default of the power of God which can do all things but of the repugnancie of the thing which cannot be Which the Ministers from the beginning had well said in euery answere but for that they had answered vpon some Interrogatories that the omnipotencie of God must bee measured by his will supposing to salue that error they are plunged in many other errors out of which for not consessing to haue erred they cannot rid themselues without falling into an infinite number of absurdities Moreouer the Ministers deceiue themselues when they will limit the power of God and not extend it to all things generally that humane spirit can conceiue or imagine For contrariwise it is doubtlesse that the power of God is great aboue all conceit and imagination of the humane spirit that it is infinite and incomprehensible as saith S. Paul God can do more then we demaund or vnderstand And where the Ministers say that God onely can doo all things which are not contrarie to his iustice wisedome goodnesse and truth and therefore cannot doo generally all things It hath alreadie beene shewed them that to bee able to doo things contrarie to the iustice wisedome goodnesse and truth of God was not power but weakenesse And by the selfe-same reason as saith Saint Augustine in the place by the Doctors in theyr former obiection alledged that he cannot do such things it is an argument of his omnipotencie and not of restraint thereof And where the Ministers inferre that because God cannot do such things he can by consequence do nothing which is contrarie to his wisedome and eternall will which is and euer shall be to doo all things well and wisely with number waight and measure and without that there is any iniustice or
maliciously oppose himselfe to the knowledge of the truth or which shall resist the same Against the merit of the bloud of Iesus Christ and passion of the Crosse in proper termes haue they written that had Iesus Christ onely dyed by the sorrowes of corporall death and by the sheading of his whole bloud he had nought done nor profited for our redemption if beeing on the Crosse hee had not endured in his soule the paines of the damned before his death and other horrible blasphemies contained in the atticle of the discent into hell The Ministers do also instruct their adherents that murther adultery robbery theft and euery crime whatsoeuer is but a veniall sinne to one predestinate who is neuer say they out of the fauour of God what thing soeuer he commit and do assure their faithfull and those of theyr Church to beleeue firmly that they are in grace and predestinate which is in plaine termes albeit the Ministers will otherwise excuse thē to giue leaue and license to commit all wickednesse and other articles which the Doctors will verifie where the matter shall require the same If the Ministers denie these points to be in their writings and published in their Sect the places of Caluins bookes which the Doctors noted in the Margin wil testifie the same To be briefe behold the glory of God and of his sonne Iesus Christ wherevnto tend the Ministers by the rooting out of the pretended impieties mentioned in many articles of their last resolution For briefe answere wherevnto the Doctors doo say that some things by slaunder of the Ministers are falsly imputed to the Catholique Church that others are expressed in the holy scripture and others drawne from the same and confirmed by the traditions of the Apostles and the vniuersall consent of the first Christian church the deceits excepted which the Ministers adde in euery article And so shall it bee shewed and proued at the least in time and place if the Ministers haue patience to handle in it ranke euery difficultiie but if to make their doctrine confused they persist to mingle all together the Doctors do protest to mocke therat without answere Moreouer the Ministers in generall doo rightly attribute to the power of God and say well that the certaine knowledge thereof is to be taken by the scriptures which hath bene alwaies auouched to them by the Doctors Very well say they also that it is infinite and incomprehensible But when they come to particularities and to shew wherein the omnipotencie lieth and consisteth then forget they holy scriptures and without them do measure the same according to the wisdome and eternall wil of God according to the order established in the world and as though they remembred no more that such power were infinit they tie it to the conditiō proprietie natural order of creatures As though to make something against or aboue the order condition natural proprietie of the creatures were a thing repugnant to the wisedome nature and wil of God Behold the short resolutiō which the Doctors can gather of the Ministers opinion touching the omnipotencie of God which shall appeare by their writings and answeres giuen to the said Doctors And as touching S. Augustine which they produce for them he hath bene answered heretofore The Doctors refer them to their writings cōcerning that which the Ministers do falsly tax thē to hold as a sufficient argument to infer some matter to be done of God to shewe that he hath power to do it The resolutions and obiections of the Doctors do plainly containe the contrarie The Doctors are also falsly accused by the Ministers as if they had affirmed the faith wholly contrary to nature Who haue onely said that the contradiction ordinarily made to faith founded vpon the word commeth from the consideration of naturall things against the power of God Concerning Abrahā the scripture in Genesis alwaies proposeth that he his wife made some difficultie touching the promise of God And cōsidered Corpus suū emortuū mortuā vuluā Sarae His owne dead body the dead wombe of Sarah vntil he heard the assurance of the omnipotēcie And S. Paul sufficiently declareth the speech of Abraham from his first vocation vntil after such assurance without putting distinction in the Historie of that which was before or after such assurance as is that which the Apostle saith that he cōsidered not Corpus suū emortuū his owne dead body but rested vpon the assurance of the almightinesse of the promise made vnto him The Doctors say they haue better concluded according to the faith we ought to haue of the power of God to make one bodie in diuers places then the Ministers haue done which haue not any word of God to settle theyr faith vpō to beleeue that God could not do it or that it repugneth the wisedome prouidence and eternall vertue or the humanitie of Iesus Christ yea the nature of a simple bodie only But concerning all that the Ministers do trust in their owne presumption and particular reuelation without one onely passage of scripture wherevpon they might stay theyr opinion Contrariwise haue the Doctors founded their faith not on the power of God onely to make one body in diuers places but to beleeue the deed and that God hath so willed on the holy scripture as in theyr Resolution is contained with the passages of auncient Fathers which they to this end haue alledged Which are so plaine that the Ministers cannot iustly but affirme the same And their starting holes shall be cōuinced by the simple reading of the bookes For all the rest of the Ministers resolution where are mightie iniuries Impostures and slanders against the Doctors they answere nothing hauing regard to the Ministers manner of dealing And the Doctors also do well vnderstand that it should be lost labour to teach the Ministers who more esteem their owne particular reuelation for their whole instruction then all the doctrine and remonstrance of the Church vniuersall and all Christians together And freely do the Doctors pardon all the iniuries they haue done them as people voyd of sound sence and without iudgement which thing they declare by theyr maner of dealing An obiection of the Supper by the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers WHy the Doctors in the beginning of the conferences haue not touched the Article of the Supper it sufficiently appeareth by the first dayes Acts. And a deceit it is which the Ministers haue done in taxing them to haue recoyled from entering into that matter For it shall be proued as well by the offers which the Doctors haue often made to confer by word for quicker dispatch of the said matter and then at more leisure to put it in writing which the Ministers haue refused as also by the first obiections which the Doctors proposed touching the article of Gods omnipotencie wherby they touched the foundations vpon which are builded the errors of the pretended reformed religion against
beene chaunged so ought to bee also the esteeme and reputation in which it hath beene adding therevnto that in whatsoeuer degree of honor she hath bene formerly lifted she hath not neuerthelesse beene esteemed by the Fathers for the vniuersall Church nor her Bishop for vniuersall Bishop As by that which Saint Ierome wrote thereof to Euagrius and by that which concerning the same was determined in one of the Councells of Carthage appeareth And as touching the reformed Church in France the Ministers doo not say that it is the vniuersall and Catholique Church but only a member of the same And that it hath it foundation not vpon the opinioÌ„ or authoritie of men but vpon the doctrine writings of the Prophets Apostles Moreouer as touching the protestations of Charitie and zeale whereby the Doctors feare to bee forced vnto Inuectiues and pursuites which they make against the Ministers and other the faithfull by the example as they say of Saint Augustine and other Bishops which in time past solicited the Magistrates against the Donatists theyr proceedings and fashion which they haue and still doo vse towards the sayd Ministers and faithfull do euidently declare that with false tokens they shrowd themselues by these examples For as much as the Catholiques whome they alledge exhorted the Magistrate to vse all moderation and mildnâ—sse towards the Donatists and other heretiques and to assay all meanes to reduce them before they came to the rygor of paines and iudgement And further they endeuoured to containe and represse the fury of the people and to hinder theyr open violence vpon them Whereas they contrariwise doo stirre vp against the Ministers the people and Magistrates by slaunder and false imputations and by all other fashions meanes they can inuent for this purpose Touching the Omnipotencie of God and the definition thereof which the Ministers haue proposed drawne and extracted out of the bookes of Saint Augustine the Doctors in theyr last writing produce no new thing to cause them leaue the â—ame For that they alledge of the Angels which can do whatsoeuer they will and by that meanes should be almightie as well as God if the abouesayd definition of his Omnipotencie had place is an example from the purpose and which cannot prooue that there is in the Angels any such power as in God For certaine it is that theyr will and power dependeth elsewhere and that God ruleth ouer them to chaunge suspend and hinder them as he pleaseth and as he can do in all other creatures Which none can say of God without blasphemy Howsoeuer it be If the Doctors will reproue the definition of Gods Omnipotency proposed by the Ministers they deale not with them but with S. Augustine For as much as the said definitioÌ„ was word for word copied out of his writings The Ministers do maruell that after they had so amply declared to the Doctors what they thought of Gods Omnipotencie and shewed that it stretched not indifferently to all things which men in theyr foolish phantasies may conceiue or imagine the Doctors will eftsoones harpe on that string alledging that God can do wisely what fooles do foolishly imagine For manifest it is that fooles can imagine many things which are impossible to God As for example that there is no God Psal 14. and 53. That hee is corporeall as thought the Anthropomorphites That the world is eternall as thought the Peripatetiques That there was two beginnings as taught the Manichees All which thinges can no way without blasphemie be attributed to the Omnipotencie of God But that which more contenteth the Ministers is that our Maisters after so long and sharpe combat in this Article and so ofâ—en crying blasphemie when the sayd Ministers proposed the truth thereof are constrayned in the end to accord with them and follow the interpretation and restraint which the Ministers themselues had giuen touching the Omnipotency of God as it appeareth by a sentence of theyr last writing whereof the words are such The Doctors say That all things imaginable to man are possible to be done with God without any exception but of those things which imply contradiction to be and not to be What reason then is there that for the things whereof the Ministers and Doctors agree that they ought to be excepted out of Gods omnipotency the Ministers in excepting them be held for blasphemers not the Doctors which say confesse the selfe-same thing Now this proposition that a naturall body yea that of Iesus Christ is in diuers places at one selfe-same instant is in the ranke of things which imply contradictioÌ„ as it hath bin already sufficiently proued Therfore the Ministers coÌ„clude that the omnipotency of God cannot be referred extended thervnto The Doctors doo afterwards charge the Ministers with foure horrible blasphemies as they say grounding themselues vpon that which the Ministers in defending that one body could not be diuers places at one instant haue said that it repugned the truth wisdome and omnipotency of God Which thing the said Doctors finde so straunge and farre from reason that they would not vouchsafe to staie to refute it thinking it was vnworthie of answere and that it sufficed to haue recyted the same Wherevnto the Ministers answere that it is a very easie and readie meane to rid them speedily of all the difficulties wherein they finde themselues wrapped to say that it is a blasphemy and vnworthie of answere The Doctors yet make instance to the Ministers and say that it behooueth them to shewe by the word of God that one bodie cannot be in diuers places at one instant Wherevnto the Ministers efâ—soones answer that it is for the Doctors to proue the contrary by one text of scripture to wit that one body may be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant seeing that they are proponents in this Conference the Ministers respondents and that neuerthelesse they haue heretofore shewed them by liuely reasons drawne from the scripture and the essentiall proprieties of God froÌ„ the nature of bodies and the authorities of Fathers that the thing in question was wholly impossible And touching the argument which they thus make God can change the order which he hath established in nature Therfore can he also cause that one body at one instant be in many places The Ministers denie the consequence and yeeld reason therof for as much as such a matter should not onely change the order but should wrap vp also a contradiction the which by the confessioÌ„ of the Doctors themselues is excepted out the omnipotencie of God The Doctors in the article following do but reproach the Ministers for they confound and obscure what had bene clearly proposed by the Ministers in their last writing By means wherof let them make if they will more large an answer and expound themselues better Where the Doctors accuse the Ministers to haue maliciously concealed the word place in the matter of circumscription of a measured body the Ministers say