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A57857	The good old way defended against the attempts of A.M. D.D. in his book called, An enquiry into the new opinions, (chiefly) propogated by the Presbyterians of Scotland : wherein the divine right of the government of the church by Presbyters acting in parity, is asserted, and the pretended divine right of the hierarchie is disproved, the antiquity of parity and novelty of Episcopacy as now pleaded for, are made manifest from scriptural arguments, and the testimony of the antient writers of the Christian-church, and the groundless and unreasonable confidence of some prelatick writers exposed : also, the debates about holy-days, schism, the church-government used among the first Scots Christians, and what else the enquirer chargeth us with, are clearly stated, and the truth in all these maintained against him : likewise, some animadversions on a book called The fundamental charter of Presbytery, in so far as it misrepresenteth the principles and way of our first reformers from popery, where the controversie about superintendents is fully handled, and the necessity which led our ancestors into that course for that time is discoursed / by Gilbert Rule ...	Rule, Gilbert, 1629?-1701.	1697 (1697)	Wing R2221; ESTC R22637	293,951	328

a Religious Conversation but differed from the Church without cause in matters of lesser moment The Episcopal Church had no Pity on such as differed in indifferent Ceremonies acknowledged to be such but drave them away from their Communion unless they would comply in these which they could not do without wounding their Conscience If he can Prove that we deny Communion with the Episcopal Church on on frivolous pretences as he supposeth p. 222 he gaineth what he contendeth for but he findeth it easier to suppose this than to Prove it It was said by his Antagonist that the Donatists forsook their lawful Pastors which Presbyterians do not the Bishops being none of our Pastors He saith this is the very Crime of the Presbyterians in their Erecting Altar against Altar Answer 1. That is not all that we plead for as is clear from what hath been said I have shewed § 8. Cases in which even lawful Pastors may be forsaken and ibid. that this may be done when they require unlawful conditions of Communion with them But I say 2. That the Bishops set up in Scotland were none of the lawful Pastors of the People over whom they pretended to Rule And I am willing that Matter be Determined 1. By the strength of Argument if he can Prove the Warrantableness of the Power that they Claim to we must yield 2. By the Suffrage of the ancient Church which was positive plain and unanimous in this that the People should chuse their own Bishop and other Church-Officers see Instances Enquirie into the Constitution c. of the Primiiive Church c. 3. p. 63. Append. ad Catalog Test veritat p. 33. The ancient Church did never own a Pastoral relation in any Man to a People on whom he was thrust by the Magistrat or any Power not Properly Ecclesiastical and without their own Consent This is our case the Church of Scotland was in Peaceable Possession of Presbyterian Government the Magistrat not the Church made a Change and set Men over the People to be their Bishops whose Office they could not own and whose Persons they had no concern in I Question whether the Primitive Church I mean the first Ages would have counted it Schism to disown such and to cleave to their own lawful Pastors who had been called by them setled by Church Authority among them and laboured among them to their Comfort and Edification His denying the Donatists to have taken their Name from Donatus a casis nigris is contrarie to Petavius rationar tempor lib. 6. p. 249. I know not what Vouchers he hath for him his Assertion p. 220. that Presbyterians have thrown Deacons out of the Church is so false that it is a wonder how he could have the Confidence to Affirm it If he understand it of Preaching Deacons he should have said so and proved such an Officer to have been appointed by CHRIST to be in his Church § 14. His Fifth Reason to prove the Presbyterians Schismaticks is from the Doctrine of Cyprian of which he is so confident that he maketh my asserting that a Bishop in Cyprians time was no more but a Pastor of a Flock or a Presbyterian Moderator not a Diocesan to be a plain Demonstration that I have never read Cyprians Writings If I had read much more than either he or I have I should not so often nor so superciliously vilisie others If I have read little he will find it the easier to refute what I have Written Another Learned Author of his Partie hath taken to task these few Lines in my Def. of Vindic. which he now undertaketh to refute Which Book I have Answered with such reading as I could attain both of Cyprian and other ancient Writers in a Book Intituled the Cyprianick-Bishop Examined where I have endeavoured to Answer all that he hath here Written before I saw it I am not willing to Transcribe it being the most part of that Book He may read it if he thinketh fit and if he or any other will refute what is there said of Episcopacie in Cyprians Age I shall be willing to be Informed by him His Triumphant Conclusion p. 225. evanisheth into smoak if what hath been said be duly Considered He begineth another Debate about Preaching Moralitie which he passeth in a Word overlooking all that had been said in Refutation of his former Book on that Head While it was told him that not all the Clergy but he and such as he was so blamed Also that Preaching Moralitie was never Censured but Applauded and lookt on as necessarie but what we Quarelled was that some do only Preach Moralitie and neglect holding forth to the People the aids of the Spirit by which they should obey the Law acceptably and the Righteousness of CHRIST on account of which they and their Works that are moraly Good should be accepted and a great deal more to this purpose was Discoursed to shew his Mistakes in that Matter to all which he maketh no Return but that his Antagonist had seen no Sermons of his in Print nor heard him and therefore could not tell what sort of Doctrine he preached I think there was sufficient ground for thinking that he useth to Preach in that strain seing he so doth Defend and Applaud it but much more occasion was given for so thinking from a large Discourse in his Book that I was then Refuting Vindicating their way of Preaching in which their is nothing of that which is the Marrow of Gospel Preaching viz. the imputed Righteousness of CHRIST and the influence of his Spirit by which we must do that which pleaseth GOD. His so often Rehearsing as he hath done the Third time an Error of the Press which maketh a Passage that is unexceptionable to be Nonsense and Blasphemie after it had been Solemnly disowned by the Author this I say sheweth the Mans temper I am sure this silly shift will Reflect more on himself in the Eyes of them who are not Malicious than it will on the Person whom he would Defame SECTION XI Of the Government of the first Christian Church of Scotland ANother Debate my Antagonist Engageth in wherein what we hold must be reckoned among the New Opinions of Presbyterians is what way the Christian Church of Scotland was at first Governed whether by Bishops or the Pastors of the Church acting in Parity We cannot give a distinct and paricular Account of their way in this Matter because of the Silence and Defectiveness of the History of these times and therefore it is a Mis-representation when he saith that we hold that they were Presbyterians if he understand Presbyterian Government in the the usual Sense as made up of Kirk-Sessions Presbyteries Synods and General-Assemblies we suppose they had a Government in that Church and that it was Managed by Church Officers and directed by the Word of GOD as they then understood it for this we can bring no other Proof but that they were Christians and we owe them that Charity having

l. 2. r. the. p. 204. l. 15. r. Andabatarum p. 207. l. 2. r. injoyn p. 242. l. 36. r. Holy p. 247. l. 1. r. Congregations p. 247. l. 26. r. Religious p. 257. l. 16. r. sound p. 279. l. 33. r. Ceremony p. 284. l. 37. r. Solemnities p. 297. l. 13. r. acquainted p. 309. l. 16. r. Things p. 310. l. 35. r. Writings If there be any other Mistakes of the Press it is left to the Readers Candor to Correct them THE Good old way defended c. IT hath been observed by some who have read this Book that the Author hath been much beholden to some of the Jesuits and other Papists not only for his Arguments but even for his Invectives and Reproaches cast upon his Adversaries had he been so just as to acknowledge the true Authors of his fine Notions there had been less blame in it and even the imputation of Noveltie of the Opinions of Presbyterians with which the Frontispiece of his Book is adorned is the same Reproach that the Romanists do constantly cast on the whole of the Protestant Doctrine which in their ordinary cant is the new Gospel If he hath proved or shall prove that our Principles for Paritie and against Prelacy is newer than the first settling of Gospel-Churches by the Apostles he hath some advantage against us Yet if our way have been owned and practised in Scotland before the Papacy and among the Waldenses for many Ages The edge of his prejudice against it will be a little blunted The former I have already debated with some of his Partie and may have occasion to resume that Dispute before I have done with this Book The other may be easily made appear For in their Confession of Faith after they had fled to Bohemia called Confessio Taboritarum Joan. Lukawitz Waldensia P. 23. They expresly deny that By Scripture warrant Ordination is to be performed only by Bishops and that Bishops have more Authority than single Priests Perin Hist. of the Vaudois p. 53 62. cited by Owen of Ordination p. 4. Sheweth that they had no other Ministers for 5●0 years than such as was ordained by Presbyters Walsing Hist of England pag. 339. Telleth us that the Lollards the same Sect with the Waldenses had their Ministers Ordained by Presbyters without Bishops Now of this Sect even their Enemies witness that they were very Antient. Reinerius an Inquisitor in his Book contra Haereticos sayeth that it had continued longest of all the Sects For some say these are his Words they have been from the days of Pope Silvester 1. who was in the time of the first Nicen Council others from the dayes of the Apostles § 2. It may also be made appear that his own opinion of the Divine Right of Prelacy is much newer than ours not only by the Fathers as will after appear but even the Church of England was not of that Opinion till Bishop Lands time and but few of them after it Spellman p 576. In the Canons of Elfrick and Wolfin hath these words Ambo siquidem unum tenent eundem ordinem quum sit dignior illa pars Episcopi Catal. test verit To. 2. saith of Wicklif tantum duos ordines min●strorum esse debere judicavit viz. Presbyteros Dia●onos Fox Act. monum T. 2. Among the Answers that Lambert the Martyr gave to the 45. Questions put to him hath these words p. 400. As touching Priest-hood in the Primitive Church there was no more Officers in the Church of God than Bishop and Deacons as witnesseth the Scripture full apertly He citeth also Jerom for this After the Reformation in the Book called the Institution of a Christian man made by the whole Clergy 1537. Authorized and injoyned by King and Parliament to be preached through the whole Kingdom it is said That the new Testament mentioneth but two Orders Presbyters or Bishops and Deacons Cranmers and other Bishops Opinion I have Cited S. 2. § 2. Out of a Manuscript in Stillingfleets Ira. In the Book called the Bishops Book it is said that the difference between Bishops and Presbyters was a device of the ancient Fathers not mentioned in Scripture For the same Opinion Owen of Ordination p. 114 115. citeth Jewel Morton Whitaker Nowell and the present Bishop of Sarum § 3. Yea that this our Opinion for Paritie and against the Divine right of Episcopacy is as old as the Reformation from Popery is clear from the Articuli Smalcaldici signed by Luther Melanchthon and many other Divines as they are set down lib. concord Printed An. 1580. Lipsiae art 10. p 306. Where they plead their power of ordaining their Pastors without Bishops And cite Jerome saying Eam Ecclesiam Alexandrinam primum ab Episcopis Presbyteris Ministris communi operâ gubernatam fuisse These articles were agreed on An. 1533. After p. 324 325. They affirm of Jurisdictio Potestas excommunicandi absolvendi that liquet confessione omnium etiam adversariorum nostrorum communem esse omnibus qui presunt Ecclesiis sive nominentur Pastores sive Presbyteri sive Episcopi And they cite Jerome as holding the same Opinion and from his words observe hic docet Hieronymus distinctos gradus Episcoporum Presbyterorum sive Pastorum tantum humana authoritate constitutos esse idque res ipsa loquitur quia officium mandatum plane idem est quia autem jure divino nullum est discrimen inter Episcopum Pastorem c. These Articles were subscribed by the Electoral Princes Palsegrave Saxonie and Brandenburg by 45. Dukes Marquesses Counts and Barons by the Consuls and Senates of 35. Cities Yea to shew that this Opinion was not then disliked even in England Bucer and Fagius who subscribed them were brought into England by Cranmer and employed in promoting the Reformation The subscriptions of the Noblemen mentioned you may find at the End of the Preface of that Book It is then a confidence beyond ordinary to call the Presbyterian principle of Paritie a new Opinion § 4. It is further to be considered that as Antiquity is not by it self a sufficient Patrocinie for any Opinion So Noveltie is not alwayes a just prejudice against it If our Adversaries plead Antiquitie for Prelacy so may it be done for many principles which themselves will call Errors and this sort of Arguments hath in all Ages of the Church been judged invalide It is Divine Institution not humane practice Custome or Antient Opinion that must be a Foundation for our belief and when they expose our way as new they should consider that what is Eldest in respect of its beeing and Gods appointment may be new in respect of its discovery and observation What is old in it self may be new to us because by the corruption of many Ages it hath been hid and at last brought forth to light again So Christianity it self was a Noveltie to the Athenian Philosophers and by them treated with disdain and mocking on that account

Right quod autem saith he Jure Divino Episcopi sint Presbyte●is superiores si non ita clarum est è sacris literis c. And he provet● it by the Authority of some Popes and Councils As also Lombard 〈◊〉 supra fetcheth the Original of the several Degrees of Bishops from the Heathen Flamins Archi-flamines and ●roto-flamines not from Scripture Bellarm citeth Medin condemning Jerome as erroneously holding the Identity of Bishop and Presbyter this Bellarm hath lib. 1. c. 15. de Clericis Object 6. Medina doth there affirm August Ambros. Sedul Prima●●us Chrysost. Theodorat AEcumen and Theophylact. to be of the sam● mind and he addeth alque ita illi viri alioqui sanctissimi sacrarum literarum consultissimi quorum tamen sententiam prius in ●erio deinde in Waldensib●● postremo in Wiclefo damnavit Ecclesia c. It is here evident that others as well as the Scots Presbyterians held the Opinion about Parity to be no Noveltie Also Sixtus Senens Biblioth Sanct lib 6 Annotatio 324 looketh on Jeromes Opinion as being for the Identitie of Bishop and Presbyter and citeth as agreeing with him Ambros Chrysost Sedul An selm Thom Valdens against Wiclife who refuteth him as being of Jeromes Opinion in this and of Alfonsus Castrensis he saith non veretur fateri Hieronimum hâc in parte errasse to these Schoolmen I shall add some of the Canonists as plainly against this Jus Divinum of Episcopacy Gratian dist 60. cap ult Ad verbum Papa sacros ordines dicimus Diaconatum Presbyteratum hot quidem solos primitiva Ecclesia habuisse dicitur Joan Semeca Gloss in Jur Can dist 95. Dicunt quidem quod in Ecclesia prima primitiva commune erat Officium Episcoporum Presbyterorum nomina erant communia Ibid. c. olim Et officium erat commune sed in secunda primitiva coeperunt distingui nomen officia So Owen of ordination p. 108. who also citeth to the same purpose Concil Aquisgr can 8 Concil Hispal c. 2. Canon 7. and Concil Constantiens where Presbyters were determined to have decisive voices with Bishops because in the Law of God Bishops were no more than Presbyters I am far from inferring from what hath been said that all these were Presbyterians But it is evident that some of them did not hold Episcopacy to be Juris Divini as this Enquirer doth and that none of them lookt on Paritie as so late an Invention as he doth SECTION VI. His Answers to our Citations from Jerome and Augustine examined THis learned Author hath singled out the Testimonies brought by Presbyterians out of these two Fathers and promiseth p. 65 to examine them more narrowly as being the chief strength of the Presbyterians that is to be found in the Writings of the Ancients I shall adventure to examine his Examination He taxeth Blondel for inscribing his Book Apologia pro Sententia Hieronimi as if the Presbyterians Doctrine had been certainly espoused by Jerome and bringeth this Argument against this Conduct of Blondel At this rate saith he his Contemporaries were very much to be blamed who placed Aerius among the Hereticks and yet on all occasions make honourable mention of Jerome if he taught the same Doctrine for which Aerius was condemned for a Heretick This reasoning is of no weight for it is well known on how small grounds some in the fourth or fifth Centuries were listed among the Hereticks 2. It is no rare thing in the World to heighten the same Action or Opinion in one person which they excuse or extenuate in another We know how the Pope condemneth the same Principles as Heresie in Calvine which he passeth no such Censure on when they are taught by the Jansenists and how Alvarez chargeth Calvine with Heresie for the same things that he himself holdeth and is at much pains to shew the difference where indeed there is none Jerome was a man of great esteem so as it seems Aerius was not 3. It is thought by many that Aerius managed his Principle more unpeaceably than Jerome did that he opposed himself more fiercely to the growing Usurpations of that time and made a Schism about the Matter And it is evident that many of them who are by Epiphanius called Hereticks were at most but Schismaticks Neither do I by this yield that Presbyterians now may be called Schismaticks for I know not that Aerius was justly so branded on account of that Opinion Nor do I think that Episcopacy was come to that intollerable height when Aerius opposed it that it is come to in our days and came to● soon after his time 4. Magdeburg cent 4. c. 5. p. 399 4●0 edit Ba●… 1560. sheweth that Epiphanius maketh him an Arian So August a●… Basil● say he was the Author of the Heresie of the Syllabici which w●… indeed Arianism from which Magdeb concludes that we have litt●… certainty about him 5. Some men of great worth excuse Aerius 〈◊〉 Whitaker Reinolds and affirm that he was innocent of these Heresies they charge him with only he had angered some great men of t●… Age by questioning some of their Usurpations and also by zealou●… opposing some of the Superstitions that were then creeping into t●… Church and had too much Countenance from some eminent Men such as Praying and offering for the dead and Praying to Saints 〈◊〉 Aerius was not esteemed a Heretick by all the Fathers of that or t●… following Age none call him so but Epiphanius and Augustine w●… implicitely took it from Epiphanius Neither Theodoret nor Socrat●… nor Sozomen nor Euagrius have any thing of the Aerian Heresie § 2. He maketh a Collection of the Citations we bring out of Jerome and then giveth us his Remarks on them I must also transcrib●… them that the Reader may have them before him while he is upo●… this Debate about them The first is out of Hieron on Tit. 1. Diligenter saith Jerome Apostoli verba attendamus dicentis ut constituas per Civitates Presbyteros sicut ego disposui qui qualis Presbyter debeat ordinari 〈◊〉 sequentibus disserens hoc ait si quis est sine crimine unius uxoris vir c. Postea intulit oportet enim Episcopum sine crimine esse tanquam Dei dispens● tor idem est ergo Presbyter qui Episcopus antequam Diaboli instinct●… studia in religione fierent diceretur in populis ego sum Pauli ego Apollo ego autem Cephae communi Presbyterorum consilio Ecelesia gubernabatur Postquam vero unusquisque quos baptizaverat suos putavit esse non Christi in toto orbe decretum est ut unus de Presbyteris electus superponeretur caeteris ad quem omnis Ecclesiae cura pertineret Schismatum semina tollerentur Of what followeth in Jerome the Enquirer giveth but a lame account telling us that Jerome proveth the Identity of Bishop and Presbyter from Phil. 1. Acts 20. 1 Pet. and Epistle to the Hebrews But I shall

not the Scripture is the Ground of our Faith because without the Church we cannot know which Books of Scripture are Genuine and which are Spurious just as this Author telleth us we cannot know this but on the accurate Search made by the Church upon which Scrutiny some books are received into the Canon which at first were doubted of I advise him to read Whitaker against Stapleton especially his Duplicatio lib. 2. C. 26. where this Controversie is solidly handled as it is also in many other Protestant Writers It is observable that Popery and Prelacy must be defended by the same Arguments and that this Author hath no better Evidence for nor firmer Faith of the Divinity of the Scriptures than he hath of Episcopacy that his Faith in both is built on the Authority of the Church I mention the Divinity of the Scriptures because the whole of it is made up of its Parts the several Books and if our Belief that this Book is a part of the Canon Ex Gr. Ruth be built on the Churches Authority so it must be with another Book and another and so of them all I must here then digress a litle from defending Presbytery to the Defence of Protestantism against this my Antagonist Let me not here be mistaken as thinking that our Certainty of the Christian Doctrine in general were no greater than that we have about this or that Book of Scripture being Canonical We have sufficient though not equal Certainty of both Or as holding that the Authentickness of the several Books of Scripture were alike evident some of them bear more manifest Marks of Divinity or Motives of Credibility than others do And yet in them all there is what may satisfie us that they are from God Or thirdly As of Opinion that the Testimonies of the Christians of the first Ages are of no use not Conducive to our Certainty in this Matter I owne with Chemnit exam Concil Trident. pt 1. p. 86. That as Scriptura habet authoritatem principaliter a spiritu sancto deinde a Scriptoribus so postea a Primitiva Ecclesia tanquam teste No doubt the Concurrent and Harmonious Testimony of the first Ages is a strong Plea but we rest not on that Ground alone for if we did our Faith should be resolved into the Authority of fallible Man Yea we should reject some of these Books which we now receive as Canonical which were for some time questioned we affirm then against this Author that the Books of Scripture were not received by the Church upon the Testimony of Men singly Which he either must mean or his Argument is not to the purpose I argue then against him out of his own words the Church having made an accurate Search into the Doctrine of these Books and finding it was agreeable to the Apostolick Standard and that the Original Conveyance of such Books was supported by the Testimony of Apostolick Persons or other Men c. Here himself doth not make the Testimony of the Fathers a sufficient ground of our receiving these Books but what the Church found in them by Searching So that indeed he overturneth the Sufficiency of the Foundation that he would have us build on by laying another beside it If he will let us see Episcopacy to be suteable to the Apostolick Standard we shall embrace it but cannot owne it without that tho all the Fathers in one Voice should plead for it Again the Church after her Scrutiny and these Apostolick and Holy Men who bare Testimony to the Conveyance of these Books either had some ground for owning them as Divine or none but because they thought so the latter I hope he will not say if he say the former we shall receive these Books not on their sole Authority but on these Grounds that they went upon If he say the present Church received them from the Church of former Ages he must needs sist somewhere and not proceed in infinitum Whatever Person or Church he sist in the Argument recurreth with respect to them Further if we receive the Books of Scripture because of the Testimony of the Church our Faith both of their being from God and of the Truths contained in them must be resolved ultimately into the Veracity of fallible Men and not into the Veracity and Authority of the Infallible God unless he will make the Church infallible as his Complices in this Opinion do and even that will not help him seing this Infallibility cannot be proved And if it could I ask whether these infallible Persons who after the Apostles searched what Books were Authentick had the Knowledge of this by Means or by Revelation the latter the Papists do not pretend the former will serve us using the same Means for this Knowledge Lastly I ask whether they who conveyed these Books to us could be deceived or not The latter he will not assert for he hath told us they may be deceived about Theorems and that such a Book is Canonical is such if they could be deceived it is not fit for us to build our Faith of a thing of so high Concernment on their Opinion I conclude that the Books of Scripture are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and our Faith that they are Gods Word is built not on the Testimony of the Church but on the Veracity of God who speaketh and we know that God speaketh in them from the Motives of Credibility that the Scripture it self affordeth of which our Writers against the Papists bring not a few If he can give as good ground for Episcopacy as we can give for the Books of Scripture being the Word of God we shall receive the one as well as the other § 40. His next Work which beginneth p. 136. is to consider the Concessions of the Learned Presbyterians in this controversie which yield some Propositions that not only shake but quite overturn the whole Fabrick of the new Doctrine It is well that there are some Learned Men among them he sometimes speaketh of them without Exception or Discrimination in another Strain and even here what he giveth with the one hand he taketh away with the other for it is no great Evidence of Learning for to overturn the whole of what one taketh pains to build I in the Entrance of this Contest with him must enter my Protestation that I will not owne any Proposition tho advanced by the Learnedest of the Presbyterians that hath a mischievous Tendency and if any such Assertion should happen to drop from me upon Admonition and sufficient Instruction I shall retract it errare possum haereticus esse nolo He beginneth with Salmasius Walo Messal p. 7. confessing that even the ancien times except the Apostolick Age distinguished between Bishop and Presbyter I acknowledge the same and require this Author to shew how this overturneth the Fabrick of Presbyterianism which he reckoneth the 〈◊〉 Doctrine The Ancients early made difference in the Name reserving that of Bishop to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉

viz. his Epistles If we have no more Certainty about the Epistles than we have about the genuine Bones of that Holy Martyr and other Popish Relicks few wise Men will be much moved by Arguments brought from them That Polycarp made a Collection of these Epistles and Irenaeus cited them proveth no more but that good Men may be imposed on by Forged Writings Eusebius rejected some suppositions Books after accurate Enamination were a good Argument if it could be made out that he rejected all such the contrary whereof is well known For his Belief that the Orations of Cicero are genuine let him enjoy it but if he build his Faith on any Article of Religion or his Practice of Piety towards God on that Certainty I cannot do so too Whether Cicero wrote these Orations or not is neither a Matter of such Moment nor so contested by plausible Arguments as what we now Debate is § 45. What remains of my Antagonists Discourse on this Controversie about Episcopacy is a Recapitulation of what he hath already said in nine Questions which he seemeth to set down as so many Trophies of Victory over all his Adversaries and a few other Hints for strengthning his Cause His Questions need litle Animadversion all that is contained in them being already Answered and his Opinion in these things disproved whether concludently and solidly or not the Reader will judge His first three Questions do all suppose that we are against Prelacy merely from the Dichotomy of the Clergy used in Scripture which is a false Supposition I have proposed our Argument with more strength Sect. 4. § 5. so as it is no way touched by what he here saith wherefore it is no loss to our Cause if we give a negative or affirmative Answer to these Questions whether he shall chuse To his fourth Question I Answer that Apostolick Power as to its permanent Branches was perpetual and successive my Answer must be Tautological because his Question is such but not so as to all its Essential Branches As to its necessary Branches if he mean what is necessary to the Beeing or Idea of an Apostle I deny these to be Perpetual and Successive To the second part of this Question I Answer negatively that this Power was not transmitted in solidum to single Successors in particular Sees but to a Colledge of Presbyters Question fifth Where Superiority is forbidden is most impertinent to our Debate seing he pleadeth for a Jus Divinum for it he should bring either a Command for it or what is equivalent The Popes Monarchy over the Church is not more forbidden than the Superiority of one Priest as he speaketh over another both of them must be Juris Divini in his Opinion I retort his own Argument if Parity be not plainly forbidden which I am sure he cannot shew then the Fancy of a Jus Divinum in favours of Episcopacy such as is exclusive of all other Forms of Ecclesiastical Government is Groundless and Chymerical It is enough to us that Christ hath instituted Parity and he hath not allowed Men to change it we think this a sufficient Prohibition of the Superiority that he pleadeth for His sixth is a heap of Questions to which I Answer we deny the universal Tradition for Prelacy that he fancieth and say a more universal Tradition might be demanded We deny also that the Argument from universal Tradition exclusive of Apostolick Tradition if he can bring that he hath done his Work is in this Case either the most proper or most necessary Scripture Command or Example is both more proper and more necessary For the seventh we do not pretend there was such a great Change so suddenly as he fancieth we do and therefore are not concerned to Debate the Possibility of it I have said enough on this head § 41. To his eighth we affirm that Jeroms Opinion is fairly and truly represented by Presbyterians and have answered what he saith to the contrary Sect. 6. § 7. seq His last Question about Ignatius's Epistles may be retorted on himself whether there be any solid Argument brought for them sub judice lis est Himself declineth that Debate as I also do It is enough to us that even the Testimonies out of these Epistles are not concludent and if the Epistles were Authentick their Authority is but Humane and Fallible and cannot be a Prejudice against Divine Institution and indeed cannot make Faith where the Question is de Jure Divino as here it is § 46. I now proceed to consider some immethodical and incoherent Notions with which he concludeth this Chapter He telleth us p. 160. Presbyterians owne a Praesidency since the days of the Apostles he might have added and in their days too so that the Quarrel is not so much against Episcopacy as against the Extent of their Diocess and Increase of their Power over what it was in the Primitive times Now he will prove their Power over Presbyters to have been much more absolute than now it is pretended to be for nothing was to be done without the Bishop a Presbyter might not Baptize without his express Indulgence as Tertull witnesseth This Testimony of Tertull. I have answered Cyprianick Bishop Examed § 49. By Bishop may either be understood the Moderator not in his single Capacity but with the Presbytery none might act within their District but by their Allowance or a Parish Minister none might Baptize c. in his Parish but by his Consent He next citeth Dyonisius Bishop of Corinth writing to the Gnossians exhorting Pinytus their Bishop not to lay the heavy burden of Caelibacy I suppose that he meaneth by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 on the Brethren that is the Clergy whence he wisely inferreth the Power of Pinytus to have done this And citeth on his Margin Euseb. hist. Eccles. but neither Book nor Chapter nor the place of Dionysius where the words may be found A. Euseb. hist. lib. 4. C. 23. hath a part of an Epistle of Dionysius to Pinytus and his Answer to him where he checketh Dionysius for that Advice to him But nothing of all this importeth the Power of Pinytus to forbid Marriage he might say on this burden by preaching the necessity of Caelibacy without Authoritative imposing it Yea he might impose it as Praeses by the concurrent Authority of the Presbytery without sole Jurisdiction He mentioneth likeways the Canon Apostol and Ignatius's Epistles but citeth nothing out of them so that he cannot expect an Answer As to the Extent of Diocesses we no further make an Argument from it than we maintain that a Pastor of a Church should have no larger Charge than he can dispense the Word and Sacraments to and that he should not do this by Deputies under him We lay no Stress on the word Diocess nor on the unequal Extent of a Pastors District provided he pretend to no Power over his Brethren nor have a Charge that he cannot manage without such Superiority over others

no cause to think otherwise of them and I think this will not be Contested between him and me All the Question that remaineth is whether the Teachers of the Church had equal Power and Ruled in Parity or had Bishops set over them who had the Power of Ruling the Church the rest having only Power to Teach We are for their Equality of Power my Antagonist for Episcopal Jurisdiction to have been even then in the Church of Scotland I do agree with him that this is questio facti and must be determined by Testimonie and that of Credible Witnesses who might know the Truth of what they Assert I have brought Credible History for what we say all which he Rejecteth as fabulous some of his Party particularly Spotswood bring Instances of Bishops in Scotland at that time without any to Attest the Truth of what he Writeth Which of us then go on the best grounds Our Author had in the Apology which I take to be his pretended to Refute what I had Written on this Head First Vindic. Question 1. p. 4. 5. all that he saith in the Apology I Answered Deff of Vindic. p. 36. 37. he doth in the Book now before me endeavour to Answer part of what was said as he had also done in the Apology overlooking what he thought not fit to touch I shall now Consider what he here saith omitting nothing that is Material He hath not yet cleared his Assertion that Blondel took that History of the Culdees ruling the Church from Buchanan and his temporarie Monks Boetius and others or such as were little removed from his own Age. For Blondel doth not mention one Monk contemporarie with Buchanan nor any Monk save Fordon who was far removed from his Age wherefore the Objection from the Word Contemporarie is not Obviated nor Answered by any thing said in this or his former Book It was Objected that his Rejeing the Writers whose Testimonies were brought as incompetent Witnesses was to Raze the Foundation of the History of our Nation which he Answereth by shewing that it is the Establishing not Razing of History to require Competent Witnesses for what we Believe This is to divert into another Question what was blamed in him was not that Witnesses whose Testimony we receive must be Competent but whether these adduced by me in the Debate were such I only Mark here not Examine being aside from our present Debate what he saith p. 230. that if History be Destroyed and the Moral Certainty that is conveighed by Testimony he must mean Humane Testimony then the Authority of Revelation falleth and Atheism is Introduced at least boundless Sceptecilm and uncertainty Whether this tendeth not to make Scripture and all our Religion to Depend on the Churches Testimony let it be Considered If the Vindicator said that we may believe a Matter of Fact without sufficient Evidence let him be loaded with as many Epithets as he can Invent he Pleaded that Buchanan Boetius Major Fordon Usher the Centuriators Baronius Beda and Prosper had given Account of the Affairs of the Scots Church and if none of these be Competent Witnesses our Historie is lost and cannot be made up by the Collateral Testimony of some of the Roman Historians who spake of our Affairs obiter § 2. Our Author is at a great deal of Pains from p. 231. to Prove that no History is to be Believed unless it be ●ttested by sufficient Witnesses who had occasion to know what they Affirm I would gladly know who Opposeth him in this he fully Proveth what was never Denyed by any Body so far as I know nor can it be Denyed by any Man in his Wits I mean without this History cannot be Believed upon the Faith of these Witnesses which are thus incompetent for by other Topicks a Matter of Fact done 1000 years ago may be sufficiently Proved as the Learned Heideggerus Proveth both many Antediluvian and Postdiluvian Passages by Consequences drawn from Scripture in his Excellent Book Historia Patriarcharum Wherefore I look on Du Lamy's Work de Authoritate Argumenti negantis in Quaestionibus facti to be of good use and that the Popish legends are by that Argument solidly refused I confess also that there is much strength in Eusebius his neglecting of some Books as Spuroius because not sufficiently Attested Only I shall take Notice of a few things in his Managing of this his Discourse though I fully assent to the Conclusion of it viz. that History must be sufficiently Attested and then I shall State this Question about the Credebility of History a little more clearly than he hath done And 1. I observe that p. 233. he denyeth that quaestio facti can be otherwise Determined The contrarie of which I have already shewed viz. that it may be Determined in some cases by Consequences drawn from uncontested Matters of Fact Next he saith ibid. that the Presbyterians hold the Affirmative in the present Debate about our ancient Church-Government this is Questionable if it be not downright a Mistake it is confessed on both hands that the Culdees taught the Church at that time the Question is either whether they were Bishops or not we hold the Negative or if he Word it thus whether they were any more than Presbyters we say no or whether there were Bishops set over these Teaching Culdees or not we are still for the Negative wherefore we might put him to Prove his Affirmative I further Object that in the end of the same page he insinuateth that they against whom he Debateth do believe all things without Examining the Testimonies on which their Credibilitie is founded We do not so with any thing of Moment far less with all things Yea we do not so in the Case now under Debate Another Remark I make on what he hath page 231. and 235. If a Matter of Fact be not Attested by any Credible Author living within 200 years of the Period in which such a Thing is said ●o have happened it is to be lookt on as a Fable and he addeth that Du Launy supposed that Orall Tradition could not carry any Matter of Fact further and to Ridicule any who might think otherwise he hath devised a Ridiculous Storie of the King of China This may suffer a little Correction and must not be taken as a Principle neither on his Authority nor Du Launy's more than a Storie of 200 years old can be 1. It is hard to fix a Period how far Orall Tradition can hand down a Storie to Posteritie especially if it be not about the Credenda of Religion If I can believe a Storie of 200 years old from a grave and wise Author whose veracity I do not Question I know not why the Addition of 50 or a 100 years more should make it incredible if it come from the same hand Wherefore this is too peremptorie a Decision there are on the other hand many cases in which Oral Tradition may be very doubtful in far less time than