But you haue not yet proued your doctrine now in question to be that doctrine of the Gospell of saluation These woordes might wel haue ben spoken of the Gospell against Mahometisme Iudaisme Papisme but you doe iniurie to that doctrine of lyfe when you confounde with the same your erroneous contentions about ceremonies and the kinde of gouernment whiche all béeing externall things I thinke not many will make them to be de necessitate salutis of necessitie vnto saluation you haue here sayde nothing of your doctrine but that whiche the Arrians the Pelagians the Papistes the Turkes yea almoste the Anabaptistes will say of theirs for many euen of the Anabaptistes confesse that Magistrates be necessarie but yet not to be lawfull for Christians to be Magistrates and for proof therof they vse diuers of the self same places that the Admonition hath alleaged and you allowed against superioritie in the clergie And except I be deceyued you come verie néere to them for you will haue the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill gouernment so distincte that they can by no meanes concurre in one and the selfe same persons wherby you take from the Ciuil Magistrate authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and by that meanes spoyle him of the one halfe of his iurisdiction But of this matter more at large hereafter as occasion shall be ministred by you In the meane tyme I admonishe the Reader to beléeue youre wordes no farther than he shall sée iust proofe of them T. C. If it be asked of the obedience due vnto the Prince and vnto the Magistrate it answereth that all obedience in the Lorde is to be rendred and if it come to passe that any other be asked it so refuseth that it disobeyeth not in preferring obedience to the greate God before that whiche is to be giuen to mortall man It so resysteth that it submitteth the bodie and goodes of those that professe it to abyde that whiche God will haue them suffer in that case Io. Whitgifte All this is truly spoken of the doctrine of the Gospell but not of the doctrine in controuersie amongst vs and verily this is not plaine dealing to make the reader beléeue that we doe withstande the doctrine of the Gospell when we only resist your contentions about externall matters wherby the doctrine of the Gospel is hindered and the Churche of Christ disturbed T. C. And if it be shewed that this is necessarie for the Churche it can not be but profitable for the common wealth nay the profit of it may easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipline of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kept back from committing of great disorders of stealing adulterie murder c. whylest the smaller faults of lying and vncomely 〈◊〉 of harde and cholerike speaches which the magistrate both not commonly punishe be corrected Io. Whitgifte If it be necessarie for the present state of the Churche it is also profitable for the present state of the cōmon welth for I perceiue no such distinction of the common wealth the church that they should be counted as it were two seueral bodies gouerned with diuers lawes diuers Magistrates except the Church be linked with an heathenish idolatrous cōmon wealth The ciuil Magistrate may not take vpon him What ecclestasticali functions the 〈◊〉 Magistrate may not take vpon him ▪ such Ecclesiastical functiōs as are only proper to the Minister of the Church as preaching of the wordé administring of the Sacramentes excommunicating and suche lyke but that he hath no authoritie in the Churche to make and execute lawes for the Churche and in things pertaining to the Churche as Discipline Ceremonies c. so that he doo nothing agaynst the woorde of God though the Papistes affirme it neuer so stoutely yet is the contrarie moste true and sufficiently proued by men of notable learning as Master Iewell Bishop of Salisburie Maister Horne Bishop of Winchester Maister Nowell Deane of Paules in their bookes written against Papistes holding your assertion to whose painefull and learned writings I res rre the Reader for the auoyding of too muche prolixitie I doe not well vnderstande what is mente by these woordes Naye the profite of it maye easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipliue of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kepte backe from committing of greater disorders of stealyng adulterie murther c. whylest the smaller faultes of lying and vncomely iesting of harde and cholerike speaches whiche the Magistrate dothe not commonly punysh be corrected Doe you not thinke the punishemente for stealing and murther to be sharpe enough or doe you thynke that the feare of the Discipline of the Churche will more terrifie men from these vices than the feare of deathe Or doe you doubte whether the Ciuill Magistrate hathe Authoritye to appoynte anye other punyshemente for these and suche lyke crimes than is prescribed in the Iudiciall Lawe of Moyses For thys is nowe called in controuersie and begynneth to bée table talke or are you perswaded that the Ciuill Magistrate eyther maye not or will not correcte lying vncomely iesting harde and cholerike speaches Or that if these were punished by the Discipline of the Churche men woulde rather be terrified from the greater crymes than they will be if they be punished with ciuill correction Truly I thinke that the ciuill Magistrate hath sufficient authoritie to prouide remedies for all suche mischieues without altering the state eyther of the church or of the cōmon wealth But let the indifferent Reader iudge whether you goe aboute to wring the swoorde out of the Magistrates hand or no or at the least so to order the matter that it be neuer drawne out to punishe vice but with the consent and at the appoyntment of you and your seigniorie T. C. And vndoubtedly seing that the churche and common wealth doe embrace and kisse one an other seing they be like vnto Hypocrates twinnes which were sick together wel together laughed together and weped together and alwayes lyke affected it can not be but that the breaches of the common wealth haue proceeded from the hurts of the Church and the wants of the one from the lackes of the other Neither is it to be hoped for that the common wealth shal florish vntill the Church be reformed Io. Whitgifte All this I grant and God be thanked therfore if we shal measure the state of the church with the florishing estate wise gouernment of the cōmon wealth we shall haue no great cause to complaine but to burste oute into moste hartie thankes vnto God for the same and most humbly desire the continuance therof I do not say that the Churche is without fault for then should I affirme an impossibilitie but I thinke the faultes that are rather to be in the persons than in the lawes rather in the gouernours than in the kinde of gouernment neyther woulde I haue men eyther Puritanes Donatistes or Anabaptists
Onely bicause Polidore wryteth that Clement sayth this in a certaine short and summarie booke of christian religion you haue set downe that he wryteth thus in a booke intituled Compendiarium Christianae religionis where there is no such tytle neither in the Councels where his Epistles are neyther yet in all other his workes Thought you to disguise him with this newe name of the booke that he should not be knowne or ment you to occupie your answerer in seeking of a booke which bicause he should neuer finde he should neuer answere The place which Polidore meaneth is in the first Epistle which he wryteth vnto Iames the brother of the Lord which is as the rest are both ridiculous in the maner of writing and in the matter oftner tymes wicked and blasphemous which I speake to this ende that the reader through the commendation that M. Doctor hath giuen to this Clement in taking him as one of his witnesses in so great a matter be not abused Io. Whitgifte Here is much more labour spent than is necessarie No man denyeth but that the Epistles attributed to Clement are Counterfeyte neyther do I otherwise alledge him or Anacletus or any such like than both M. Caluine M. Iewell and many other learned men do as it is euident in their writings That testimonie whiche I vse is out of Polidore and therefore haue I quoted both the booke and Chapter Polidore wryteth as other doe that intreate of such matters and for as muche as he was learned and of purpose gaue himselfe to the searching out of such things his report is not lightly to be reiected But God be thanked neyther the name nor the anthoritie of an Arfhbishop dependeth vpon these witnesses neyther do I vse them as sure groundes but as probable testimonies of the antiquitie of the name You haue cited the Canons of the Apostles thrise at the least in this your booke and Higinus likewise and vsed them as proofes and yet is there as great suspicion in the counterfeyting of them as there is of this booke of Clements I pray you therefore giue me that libertie in recyting Authours that you take to your selfe and that no man refuseth when they serue to his purpose For I protest vnto you that I haue as euil an opinion of many of them and think as great corruption to be in them as any man doth and that not only bicause I haue so red in other mens writings of them but also for that I my self in reading of thē haue noted the same But I am well assured that Polidore ment that Clement which is supposed to be the first Bishop of Rome how he was therein deceyued béeing so learned a man I leaue it to others to iudge It is not like that Polydore ment that Epistle for hée knewe what difference there was betwixt an Epistle and a booke neyther doth the length or the matter of that Epistle giue anie occasion that it shoulde so be called wherefore it is like that Polydore had it out of some booke attributed vnto Clement vnder that title thoughe the same be not extant For there be diuerse woorkes of auncient fathers whiche bée not now ertant in print and yet in some places to be had But I will not stande longer in this matter The wordes of Polydore be these Sicut D. Clemens in suo Christianae religionis compendiario libello perhibet c. Chap. 2. the second Deuision T. C. Pag. 67. Sect. 3. For answere vnto him although he be not worth the answering I say first it may bee well sayd here of the office of the Archbishop that the father of it was an Amorite and mother an Hittite that is that it commeth of verie infamous parentage the beginning thereof beeing of the Idolatrous nations Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes of pleasure it will appeare in this discourse that the parents and authours both of the office and of the name be such as ought with greater reuerence to be spoken of and with greater signification of duetie Chap. 2. the thirde Diuision T. C. Pag. 67. Sect. 4. And whereas Clement maketh S. Peter the Apostle to make it as it were his adopted sonne therby to wipe away the shame of his birth it doth S. Peter shamefull iniurie For besides that it was farre from S. Peter to take this authoritie to himself not only of making Archbishops thorowout euery Prouince but also instituting a new order or of fice without the counsell of the rest of the Apostles which none else of the Apostles did and which is cōtrarie to the practise of S. Peter both in the first and sixt of the Actes contrarie also to the practise of the Apostles which after shall appeare I say besydes this is it like that S. Peter woulde graffe the noblest plant as it is sayd of the ministerie of the Gospell in such a rotten stock of that which was most abhominable in all Idolatrie For the greater they were in the seruice of the Idolles the more detestable were they before God Io. Whitgifte I do not take vpon me the defense of Clements wordes in that Epistle or of Polydore in the booke and Chapter before recyted in all things that they spake touching the matter But I cannot suffer your vaine reasons to serue for an answere For if Saint Peter did thus place Archbishoppes yet did he not appoynt any newe order or office as you haue bene oftentymes tolde Of all Byshops there is one order or One ministerie of bishops but diuerse degrees ministerie but diuerse degrées Betwéene an Archbyshop and a Bishop there is onely a difference of degrée and dignitie not of order or ministerie as diuerse learned men giue vnto Peter aboue the rest of the Apostles the preheminence of honour for orders sake but not of power Moreouer Peter in appoynting them without the consent of the other Apostles did no otherwise than the Apostle S. Paule whē he placed Timothie at Ephesus and Titus at Creta It may be also that in some places where there were before Archiflamines he placed such as were called Archbishops c. whiche might be done in respect of y e city place and not in respect of the idolatrous priests For Archiflamines were but in great Cities which being conuerted vnto Christ might haue in the place of their Archiflamines Godly and learned Archbishops to ouersée and direct the rest of the Bishops and Preachers that vnitie and order might be obserued Thus Paule did at Ephesus and Creta And why might not Peter do it in other places likewise Chap. 4. the fourth Diuision T. C. Pag. 67. Sect. 5. 6. 7. 8. The Lorde when he woulde giue lawes of woorshipping to his people in the things that were indifferent of shauing and cutting and apparell wearing sayth to his people that they should not do so and so bicause the Gentiles did so yea euen in those things the vse whereof was otherwise verie profitable and incommodious to forbeare he
the whole scope of the Epistle and the playne and euidente wordes of the texte for what is this but to giue Timothie superioritie and gouernment ouer the other Ministers of Ephesus to saye vnto hym aduersus presbyterum Agaynst a Minister receyue no occusation c and as thys authoritie of Iudgement is not onely gyuen vnto Timothie but to all Byshops of like callyng so that also of teachyng that godlynesse is profitable to all thyngs c. perteyneth to all Ministers of the worde generally and not to Timothie alone This is onely the difference that the firste is common to Timothie wyth all other Byshops of like iurisdiction the other common to him with all other ministers of the worde You knowe that euery Pastor or other Minister of the worde hath not other Pastors and Ministers of the worde vnder hym that it maye be sayde vnto hym aduersus presbyteros c. as it is here sayde to Timothie for I haue proued before that presbyter dothe signifie the Ministers of the worde and Sacramentes and shall haue occasion to speake more of it hereafter You saye that there is an hundreth suche things in the Epistles of Timothie and Titus ▪ I thinke that there is not one hundreth seuerall preceptes in all the thrée Epistles These stoute and hyperbolicall bragges wyth so manyfest resisting of the playne sense and meanyng of the Scriptures argueth an euill conscience and a mynde so addicted to errour that it will not be reformed Manye things in these Epistles perteyne to all Christians many things be proper to Byshops suche as Timothie was and many common to all Ministers But this aduersus presbyteros ▪ c. muste néedes to proper be those that haue vnder them other Ministers committed to theyr gouernment which euery Pastor hath not Chap. 3. the. 58. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 3. And Epiphanius Lib. 3. Tom. 1. contra Haeresim Aerij proueth Timothie his superioritie Epiphanius ouer the rest by this selfe same place T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 3. As for Epiphanius * This is your practise to discredite the author that speaketh against you it is knowen of what authoritie he is in thys place when as by Aerius sides he goeth about to pricke at the Apostle ▪ whilest he goeth about to confute the Apostle which maketh a distinction and difference betwene those which the Apostle maketh one that is a Bishop and elder and to spare the credit of Epiphanius it were better lay that opinion vpon some Pseudepiphanius which we may doe not without great probabilitie seyng * Augustine sayth that the Ad quod vult deum true Epiphamus vttereth all after a storie fashion and doth not vse anye disputation or reasoning for the truth agaynst the falshood and this Epiphanius is very full of arguments and reasons the choise whereof M. Doctor hath taken Io. Whitgifte I haue not heard any probable reason alleaged of any why these bookes of Epiphanius The writings of Epiphanius contra 80. haereses not counterfeite should be suspected whether they be his or no seeyng they be both learned and very auncient mentioned also of sundry olde writers But to omitte all other proofes I wyll onely vse the iudgement at this tyme of the authors of the Centuries who are to be credited in suche matters bycause they haue diligently and carefully laboured in them their opinion of these bookes of Epiphanius Cent. 4 cap. 10. is thys Nunc de scriptis c. Nowe we wyll speake of hys bookes of the which that worke against Cent. 4. cap. 10. the foure score heresyes is most noble which booke he hymselfe in his Epistle to Acacius and Paulus Ministers And in his booke called Anacephaleosis calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Of the which writing Augustine in his booke ad quod-vult-deum maketh this mention Our Epiphanius Byshop of Cyrus sayth he which dyed not long since speaking of foure score heresies wrote also himselfe sixe Bookes making mention of all things after an Historicall maner disputing nothing either against the falsehood or with the truthe They be but short bookes and if they were all made in one yet were it not to be compared to ours or to diuerse other mens bookes in length Out of the which words it is euident that Augustine neither had nor at any time dyd see that worke which Epiphanius intituled Panarium for Epiphanius is very long in recountyng the historie as concerning the beginning the endeuour countrey of the heretikes the occasiō of the heresie the successe increase and suche lyke throughout euery heresie Then is he very long in confuting and condemning the heresies by true Scriptures and the interpretation of them wherfore it should seeme that Augustine had belyke onely the arguments prefixed before the Tomes of bookes of Epiphanius whiche he dothe therefore call shorte bookes or at the least had his booke called Anacephaleosis which is the summe of his worke called Panarium Cornarius that writeth Cornarius the Preface before this booke of Epiphanius is of the same iudgement and addeth these wordes VVherefore eyther Augustine dyd not see this worke of Epiphanius or the right worke of Augustine is not extant but loste or else Augustine dyd not in deede performe that whiche he promised I can reade of none that doubteth whether these bookes were Epiphanius his or no. And certaynely this kinde of answering is nexte the worst especially when it is vsed agaynst suche approued authors And bicause all men may vnderstande what Epiphanius wordes and reasons be Aerius here sie in denying the difference betwixt a Be shop priell ▪ Epi. li. 3. 〈◊〉 haeres 75 ▪ whiche in déede pinche you very néere for he calleth you heretikes I will declare them as I haue there founde them First he setteth downe the heresie of Aērius in these words His talke was more outrageous than becōmed a man and he sayd what is a Bishop to a Priest he nothing differeth from him for there is but one order and the same honor and dignitie The Bishop layeth on his handes and so dothe the Priest the Bishop ministreth baptisme and so dothe the priest the Bishop sayth diuine seruice and so doth the Priest the Bishop sitteth in his throne and so dothe the Priest In this he hathe deceyued many and they vse him for their captayne Then dothe he a little after confute this heresie with Aerius reasons on this sorte To saye that a Bishop and a Priest is equall howe can it be possible for the order of Bishops is the begetter of fathers for it ingendreth fathers to the Churche the order of Priests not beeing able to beget fathers dothe beget sonnes to the Churche by the sacrament of Baptisme but not fathers or teachers and howe is it possible for him to ordeyne a Priest not hauing imposition of hands to electe or to saye that he is equall with a Bishop but phantasticalnesse and emulation deceyued the
at the other I will not denie but he may be more edisyed at the simple reading than at the Sermon vnlesse it be in this and such like case I knowe not howe it may be true that M. Doctor sayth And indeede it is as much to say that it may be that the meanes that God hath ordeyned to be the fittest and meetest to call men to saluation is not the fittest and meetest meanes which a man shoulde not once so much as thinke of without trembling and shaking euery ioynt of him Io. Whitgifte As absurde as it is Musculus doth affirme it in his common places titu de Lectio sacrae script And as his saying I report it in mine answere beléeuing it to be moste true And therefore if your malice had not béene wholy bent agaynst me you should haue ascribed this absurditie to him or at least haue deuided it betwixt vs and so my backe should haue béene somwhat eased of the burden of absurdityas wherewith you would so gladly ouercharge me God worketh by reading the Scriptures as well as he doth by preaching and God vseth reading as a meanes aswell as preaching vseth that also as a meanes to call men to saluation Read Augustine lib. con 8. cap. 12. and you shall sée that God vsed reading as a meanes to conuert him And surely I maruell that you professing the Gospell can without trembling and shaking speake so basely of reading the worde of God being a thing so precious and so singular a meanes of our saluation but for the thing it selfe I referre it to the iudgement Reading somtune preuayleth more than preaching of those that haue not drunke so déepely of the cuppe of contention as you haue whither it may not sometymes so happen Or whither they whiche are quietly affected may not receyue more edifying by the simple reading of the Sciptures which they vnderstande than by the Sermons of diuerse contentious preachers whose hote and bitter inuectiues which sauour more of malice than of loue of contention than of peace the frute of the Gospell may bréede in the heartes of those that are studious of peace and quietly minded some suspition of the truth of their doctrine Or lastly whither some misdoubting the truth of the doctrine of the preachers of the Gospell and conceyuing a preindicate opinion agaynst them as diuerse Papistes doe may not be more edifyed by diligent reading of the Scriptures of whose authoritie they doe not doubt than by hearing of the Preacher whose wordes they doe eyther mistrust or not regarde by reason of theyr preiudicate opinion agaynst all Preachers and in the ende perceyuing by reading of the Scriptures the truth of their doctrine may bée thereby established which were not by the Sermons once mooued And for this cause Christ sayde Iohn 5. Searche the Iohn 5. Scriptures c. That Reading is Preaching Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. Lin. 13. And nowe I thinke by this tyme M. Doctor knoweth his answere to his seconde question which is whether reading be not preaching ▪ And if this be not sufficient that I haue sayde I woulde aske gladly of him (*) A mere cauil whether all Readers be Preachers and whether whosoeuer readeth preacheth for if it be true which he sayth that reading is preaching then that is lykewise true that all those which reade preache and so a childe of 4. or 5. yeares olde is able to preach bycause he is able to reade Io. Whitgifte I know an answere in déede such as it is but it is much more fit for a Papist or Atheist than for a professor of the Gospell If preaching be taken generally for euerie How reading is preaching kinde of instructing or teaching by the worde of God as it is ad Rom. 10. then is reading preaching But if it be taken in the vsuall signification for him that interpreteth the Scripture teacheth and exhorteth in the Congregation by discoursing vpon the scriptures and applying them as occasion serueth then it is not so and yet no lesse profitable to edifying to such as vnderstande that which is read than preaching To reade the Scriptures is not to preach or teache in respect of him that readeth but in the respect of Gods spirite whiche thereby worketh knowledge in the heart of the Reader or Hearer For we must thinke it to be true that Cyprian sayth VVhen we reade the Scripture God speaketh vnto vs and in this sense a childe that can read may preach that is God by his worde read of a childe may and doth oftentimes teach vs. And hereof we haue God be thanked many examples in Englande of those which béeing not able to reade themselues by the meanes of their children reading to them at home receyue instruction and edifying And if you had béene disposed to haue called to remembrance that which you say you haue so diligently read in M. Foxe you might haue knowne that diuerse in the beginning came to the light of the Gospell onely by reading and hearing the newe Testament in English read which I am sure you will confesse to haue bene to them a preaching and instruction Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Admonition By the worde of God it is an office of preaching they make it an office of reading Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 159. Sect. 1. But where doth the booke make the ministerie an office of reading onely Or what contrarietie is there betwixt reading and preaching Nay what difference is there betwixt them If a man A written sermon is preaching shoulde write his Sermon and reade it in the booke to his flocke doth he not preach Is there no Sermons but such as be sayde without booke I thinke to preache the Gospell is to teache and instruct the people in fayth and good maners be it by wryting reading or speaking without booke and I am sure the spirite of God doth worke as effectually by the one of these wayes as it doth by the other Did not Saint Paule preache to the Romaines when he writte to them Was not the reading of Deuteronomie to the people a preaching 2. Reg. 23. Will you so scornefully and so contemptuously speake of the reading of Scripture beeing a thing so frutefull and necessarie T. C. Pag. 127. Lin. 18. And least he shoulde seeme to be thus euill aduised without some reason in the. 159. Page he asketh whether if a man wryte his Sermon and after reade it in the booke that reading be preaching Here is hard shift what if I graunted that it is preaching yet I denie that therefore he that readeth an other mannes Sermon preacheth and further I say that if there be any such as beeing able to preache for his knowledge yet for fault eyther of vtterance or memorie can not doe it but by reading that whiche hee hath written It is not conuenient that hee shoulde bee a Minister in the Churche For Saint Paule doth not require onely that the 1. 〈◊〉 3. Bishoppe
or Minister shoulde be learned in the mysteries of the Gospell and such a one as is able to set downe in wryting in his studie the sense of the Scripture but one whiche is apt and fitte to teache And the Prophete Malachie sheweth that he must haue the lawe not in his papers Mal. 2. but in his lippes noting thereby that it is necessarie to haue the gifte of vtterance And Esay the Prophete saying that God had giuen him the tongue of the learned doth thereby declare Esay 50. that it is not sufficient that he be well instructed in the mysterie of saluation but that he haue also the gift of vtterance Io. Whitgifte And why doth not he which readeth an other mans Sermon preache as well as hée doth when he readeth his owne What if he pronounce another mans Sermon in the Pulpit without booke doth he not preache bicause it is not his owne I do not speake this to defende any such ignorant Pastor that should néede so to depende vpon other mens labours I doe but put a case It may be that a learned Pastor hauing both memorie and vtterance sometime vpon occasion may reade a Sermon And I nothing doubt but in so doing he preacheth And surely he shall the more redily haue the lawe in his lippes if he haue it first in his Papers And yet if he reade he must vse his lippes Ieremie the Prophete as it appeareth in the. 36. Chapter was commaunded to write that which the Lord had commaunded him to say to the people of Iere. 36. Iuda and of Ierusalem and to cause it to be read vnto them and so it was in the open congregation and in the house of the Lorde in the hearing of all the people And so did Baruch in like maner write that which he had to say to Iechonia and to Bar. 1. all the people and read the same in the open congregation Bar. 1. and surely both these bookes were Sermons Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 127. about the middest Afterward M. Doctor asketh whether S. Paule did not preach to the Romaines when he wrote vnto them No forsooth his writing to the Romaines was no more preaching than S. Rom. 1. Paules hande or his pen. which were his instruments to write with were his tongue or his lightes or any other partes which were his instruments to speake with And S. Paule himselfe writing to the Romaines putteth a difference betwene his writing his preaching when although he wrote vnto them yet he excuseth himselfe that he coulde not come to preach vnto them saying that he was readie as much as lay in him to preach vnto them Io. Whitgifte Forsooth and I thinke verely that the same Epistle did them more good and wrought more with them than if the selfe same matter had béene preached vnto them and not written And if you will but peruse the. 15. and. 16. vers of the. 15. Chapter of that Epistle I thinke that you shall heare the Apostle call this written Epistle in effect preaching I do not perceyue that in the first Chapter of this Epistle he maketh any such difference betweene his wryting vnto them and hys preaching If you meane the. 15. verse he therein onely signifieth that so much as lyeth in him he is readie personally to preach the Gospell among them as well as he doth it nowe by his letters and therefore to say that this his wryting is no more preaching than his hande or his pen was his tongue or his lightes is a proper iest but not so apt for the purpose nor so fitte for your person A mans minde is commonly much better expressed by wryting than by worde and that which is written continueth Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. somevvhat past the middest But sayeth he was not the reading of Deuteronomie preaching No more than the reading of Exod. Here be good proofes It is generally denied that readyng is preaching and M. Doctor without any proofe taketh it for graunted that the readyng of 〈◊〉 is preaching al men see how pitifull reasons these be Io. Whitgifte And why then did God by Moses Deut. 31. commaunde the Priestes and Leuites that they should reade The wordes of this lawe before all Israell that they might Deut. 31. heare it and learne and feare the Lorde God and keepe and obserue all the wordes of the lawe Why did Iosiah after he had founde this booke cause it to be read before all the people if readyng had not bene effectuall and of as great force to persuade as preaching that is if readyng in effect had not bene preaching If the eight chapter of Nehemias Nehem. 8. be well considered and the true meaning of the. 4. and. 7. verses according to learned and godly interpreters weyghed and pondered this controuersie will soone be at an ende it will there appeare in expresse wordes that readyng is preaching These pitifull reasons so disquiet your patience that it woulde pitie a man to see how of a diuine you are become a scornefull iester Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 162. Sect. 2. Act. 15. it is thus written For Moses of old tyme hath in euery citie them that preach him seyng he is read in the Synagogues euery Sabboth day Where he also seemeth to call reading preaching T. C. Pag. 127. Tovvardes the ende And in the. 162. page he alleageth that in the. 15. of the Actes S. Luke seemeth to meane by readyng preaching But what dealing is this vpon a (*) If your seemings and coniectures were taken away there would be few reasons left seeming and coniecture to set downe so certainely and vndoubtedly that reading is preaching and then there is no one letter nor syllable that vpholdeth any suche comecture For S. Iames sayeth that Moses meaning the lawe read euery Sabboth thorough out euery towne in the Sinagogue was also preached or had those that preached it setting forth the order which was vsed in all the hurches amongst the people of God that alwayes when they mette vpon the Sabboth dayes they had the scriptures first read and then preached of and expounded which is that the Authours of the Admonition do desire and therefore complayne for that after readyng followeth no preaching which any indifferent man may easily vnderstande by that that they saye In the olde tyme the worde was preached nowe it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read Io. Whitgifte Surely the place of it selfe is euident neyther can I reade any interpreter that doth otherwise vnderstand it than of reading the occasion of vttering these wordes importeth the same For S. Iames doth vse this for a reason why the ceremonies of the lawe could not by and by be abolished among the Iewes bycause Moses was of so great authoritie with them beyng read euery Sabboth day in their Churches Therefore hauing the wordes of the Scripture with me I must rest in my opinion
so notable a peece of vvork consisteth of tvvo false principles and rotten pillers vvhereof the one is that vvee must of necessitie haue the same kynde of gouernment that vvas in the Apostles tyme and is expressed in the scriptures and no other the other is that vve may not in any vvise or in any consideratiō reteyne in the Church any thing that hath bin abused vnder the Pope if these tvvo postes be vveake yea rotten as I haue proued them to be in this my Defense then must the building of necessitie fall Touching the first it is to be vnderstanded that there is a double gouernment of the Church the one spirituall the other externall Christ onlie and none other by the operation of his spirite and directiō of his vvord spiritually gouerneth his Church and reignyng in the conscienees of the faithfull guydeth their myndes in all matters of deuotion faith and holynesse and this is the spirituall kingdome of Christ so much spoken of in the scriptures and speciallie in the Prophets of this kynde of gouernment I meane not The externall gouernment hath both a substance and a matter about vvhich it is occupied and also a forme to atteyne the same consisting in certaine offices and functions and in the names and titles of them the substance and matter of gouernment must in deede be takē out of the vvord of God and cōsisteth in these pointes that the vvorde be trulie taught the sacramentes rightlie administred vertue furthered vice repressed and the Church kept in quietnes and order The offices in the Church vvhereby this gouernment is vvrought be not namely and particularelie expressed in the scriptures but in some pointes left to the discretion and libertie of the Church to be disposed according to the state of tymes places persons as I haue further declared in my Ansvvere and Defense follovving Of the secōd principle I haue also spoken at large there so that I shall not neede to trouble the Reader any further in these matters The proofes that T. C. vseth in this his Replie are grounded onlie vpō vntrue allegations and interpretations of the scriptures vaine and childishe reasons falsifying the authorities of Doctors other vvriters vntrulie ascribing that vnto them vvhich they vvrote not as shall be euidētlie declared in this Defense by the grace of God and surelie I haue not redde many bookes vvherein so many grosse vntruthes are to be found or vvherein there is so manye manifest argumentes vttered to proue the ignoraunce of the author and lacke of reading auncient and learned vvryters Touching his manner of vvriting I shal not neede to say much for any mā of iudgemēt that readeth his book may easilie perceiue vvith vvhat hautines of mynde vvhat contempt disdayne of others in vvhat sclaundrous and opprobrious manner it is vvritten hovve oft doth he repeate M. Doctor in contēpt either of the degree or of the person 370. times is the leaste vvhat other speaches of disdaine and reproche doth he vtter but I do nothing at all maruayle at it for I consider it hath bene the vsuall practise of sectaries and disquieters of Aug. lib. 1. contra Donatist the Church It is true that S. Augustine sayeth lib. 1. contra Donatist cap. 11. Nulli schismata facerent si fraterno odio non excaecarentur None would make schismes if they were not blinded with hatred of their brethren And againe An non est in schismate odium fraternum quis hoc dixerit cum origo pertinacia schismatis nulla sit alia nisi odium fraternum Is there not hatred of brethren in schismes who would saye so seeing that the beginning and continuaunce of schisme proceedeth from no other cause than from hatred of our brethren I must therefore saye vvith M. Zuinglius Scio quibus conuitijs quantis furoribus illorum Lib. de Baptis hic me exponam I knowe to what reproches and to howe greate rages of theirs I make my self subiect And I vvill conclude vvith him Quamuis miris conuitijs nos perstringere Eodem nouis quotidie clamoribus morderenō des a ̄t c. Although they maruelouselie slaūder vs and daylye with newe clamors reuile and backbite vs yet will I neuer leaue of the defense of the truth before their contumacie be made knowne to all men VVho so peruseth such learned authors as had greate experience of the lyke kynde of men he shall finde that their especiall grace both in speaking and vvriting hath bene in bitter inuectiues against other vvhom they haue enuyed and hated for some speciall causes M. Zuinglius in an Epistle that he vvriteth before his book de Baptismo speaking of the Anabaptistes sayeth thus Hyp critica illorum humilitas illis fatis nota perspecta est qui cum his aliquando sermones contulerunt quà m scilicet sit illorum oratio omni felle amarulentior Their hypocriticall humilitie is verie well knowne to those which haue had cōference with them how that their talk is more bitter than gaule And in his booke de Baptismo he earnestlie protesteth that he neuer found any thing in them quà m saturninam quandam melan holicam ingeniorum contumaciam c. and in his book against Baltasar he sayth that by dispraysing and reuyling others they seeke to wynne credite vnto them selues How this qualitie agreeth vvith some of our men and especiallie vvith the author of this Replie I am content that other men iudge If I my selfe haue in vvryting and in this Defense spoken something more sharpelie it must be imputed to myne infirmitie and yet am I therevnto greatelie prouoked but herein as in manye other matters I submit my selfe to the iudgement of those that haue authoritie to iudge and of those that be learned for I am content still to make this the foote of my song Errare possum haereticus esse nolo To those that be in authoritie I onlie speake as M. Zuinglius did to the magistrates in his time vpon the like occasion Quòd si hoc cuiuis hominū impunè facere licebit In Ecclesiast vt quae priuato suae rationis consilio adinuenit in vulgus spergat inconsulta imò resistente etiam vniuersa totius ecclesiae authoritate breui plus errorum quà m fidelium Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere If it be lawful for euery man to publish abroade among the people those thinges which he hath deuised of his owne heade before he hath consulted with the church nay against the authoritie of the whole church in short time we shall see moe errors in the church than there be faithfull men and Christians And againe Si enim boc permittamus vt capitosus quisque Lib. de Baptis malè feriatus bomo mox vt nouum aliquid insolens animo suo concepit c. If we suffer euery hedie and braynelesse fellowe so sone as he hath cōceyued any new thing in his mynd to publish
peruerting of the words and meaning of the Epistle vnlearned tonges we had rather a great deale they were vnlearned than they should be as theirs * which haue taught their tonges to speake falsly And how vnlearned soeuer Ierem. 9. 5 you would make the world beleeue that we and our tongs be I hope through the goodnesse of God they shall be learned ynough to defend the truth against all the learning that you shall be able to assault it with If those be (b) Slaunderous and cursed speakers be not the generation of Christe the generation of Christe whiche you cal viperouse kinde of men Esay 53. 8. knowe you that you haue not opened your mouth against earth but you haue set it agaynst heauen and for all indifferent iudgement it will easily perceiue that you are as farre from the spirit of * John Baptist as you are neere to his manner of speach which you vse whither it be affection Math. 3. 7 or blind zeale that we follow and are driuen by it will then appeare when the reasons of both sides being laid out shal be wayed indifferently Wheras you say that your dutie towards God the Queene hir Maiesty moued you to take this labour in hād it will fall out vpon the discourse that as you haue not serued the Lord God in this enterprise and work of yours so haue you done nothing lesse than any godly dutie which you owe vnto hir Maiestie so that the best that can be thought of you herein is that where in an euill matter you could yeld no dutie yet now you haue done that which you thoughte a duetie which iudgement we will so long keepe of you vntil you shall by oppugmng of a knowne truth declare the contrary which we hope will not be What truth it is that we impugne and you defēd let it in the name of God appeare by our seueral proofs and answers of both sides And as for the slanderous surmises wherby in your third and last consideration you set the Papists of the one side of vs and the Anabaptists of the other and vs in the middest reaching out our hands as it were to them both first it ought not to be straunge vnto vs myserable sinners seeing that the Lord hunselfe without all sinne was placed in the middest of two greeuous malefactours as though he had bin worse than they both Then for answer of these slanderous speaches I will referre the Reader to those places where these generall charges are giuen out in more particular manner Io. Whitgifte It is well that you are content to rest in his iudgement vntill the time come for so indéed ought we to do as the Apostle admonisheth 1. Cor. 4. Nolite ante tempus quicquam 1. Cor. 4 ▪ iudicare Iudge not before the time vntill the Lord come c. Your coniecture is a méere coniecture in déede for vndoubtedly these so many harde words of mine bitter reproches c. would not haue bin kept so secret of you if you coulde haue had them foorthcomming But be it so as you will néedes haue it yet haue I not in like bitternesse of speach spoken against them as Zuinglius Bucer Caluine Bullinger Gualter c. haue done against the like troublers of the Church who had notwithstanding all these pretences and clokes to shadow their contentions with which either you or the Authours of the Admonition do alleadge for they pretende the Glory of God the Puritie of Religion the safetie of the Church as Master Bucer witnesseth in his Coment ▪ vpon the Ephe. Cap. 4. Master Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabap. Gastius in his booke de exordio erroribus catabaptist Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesi And Bullinger in his booke aduersus Anabaptist as I haue by setting downe their very wordes more at large declared in the second edition of my answere to the Admonition But graunt that for the loue of peace and hatred of contention and earnest zeale that I beare to this Church of Christ in England and dutifull affection to my souerayne I haue sometimes passed the bounds of modestie wherein I wil neyther accuse nor excuse my selfe yet are my speaches in bitternesse farre inferiour to those opprobries slanders and disdainefull words vttered either in the first or second Admonition or in your Replie And where haue you learned to espie a mote in another mans eye and not to sée the beame that is in your owne or what poynte of Rhetoricke do you call it to charge me in the beginning of your booke with that that you yourselfe most outrageously fall into sundry times almost in euery leafe or how vnwise are you to giue vnto me that councell which you yourselfe in no respect obserue But of both our modesties and manners of writing we must be contente that other men iudge which shall reade our bookes and therefore it is but in vaine either for you to accuse or me to excuse God graunt vs both the spirit of modestie and humilitie In my fourth reason by backbiters I meane all such as are ready to heare euill and speake euill of all men that be not of their iudgement and such as cease not continually to depraue those especially that be of any countenance and calling the which vice doth aboundantly reigne I will not say in all but in a great sort of your sect and those learned also I could name some which go from place to place for that purpose especially although vnder other pretences and in this qualitie they agrée with the Anabaptists as may appeare more plainly in the notes of the Anabaptists qualities conteined in the seconde edition of my answere to the Admonition to the which for breuities sake I referre you By vnlerned tongues I meane such of the common people as you haue deluded who in déede are caried away by a blinde and preposterous zeale and therefore the rather to be excused I know there be some both of the learned vnlearned sorte among you that haue milder spirites than the rest such I do not blante in this point I would other would follow their modestie As for the good that you and other woulde so gladly speake of me it euill appeareth in this booke where you do but deuise how possibly you may deface me in déede bothe you and some others if you considered your duties towardes mée and my dealings towardes you whilest you kepte your selues within your bondes haue small occasion to whisper of me in corners as you do or otherwise to deale so vnchristianly with me The euill that you know by me vtter it and spare not I desire no silence so that it be done where I may come to the answering of it And surely he that shall reade this your booke cannot but conceiue that if you knew any euill thing by me it would not be concealed But to all reproches I will answere as they come in order and proclayme defyance againste you for
the sinceritie and simplicitie of his Gospel Not that you should either g 1. Tim. 3. 8. wilfully withstand or vngraciously tread h Math. 7. 6. the same vnder yourfeete for God doth not disclose his wil to any such ende but that you should yet nowe at the length with all your mayne and mighte endeuour that Christe whose i Mat. 11. 3 easie yoke and light burthen we haue of long tyme cast of from vs might rule and reigne in hys Churche by the scepter of his worde onely ¶ Answere to the Admonition Pag. 20. Sect. 1. 2. I Will not answere wordes but matter nor bare affirmations or negations but reasons and therefore in as fewe words as I can I will comprehende many lines But before I enter into their reasons I thinke it not amisse to examine that assertion which is the chiefe and The grounde of the Admonition principall grounde so farre as I can gather of their booke that is that those things only are to be placed in the church which the Lord himselfe in his worde commaundeth As though they shoulde saye nothing is to be tollerated in the Churche of Christ touching either doctrine order ceremonies discipline or gouernment except it be expressed in the word of God And therfore the most of their argumēts in this booke be taken ab authoritate negatiuè whiche by the rules of Logike proue nothing at all T. C. Pag. 13. Sect. 2. YOu giue occasion of suspicion that your ende will be scarse good whiche haue made so euill a beginning For wheras you had gathered out of the Admonition that nothing shuld be placed in the Churche but that God hath in his worde commaunded as though the words were not playne mough you will giue them some light by your exposition And what is that you answere that it is as muche as though they would say nothing is to be tollerated in the Church of Christ touching either doctrine order ceremonies discipline or gouernment excepte it be expressed in the word of God Is this to interprete is it all one to say (a) But their quarell is in tollerating not in placing nothing muste be placed in the Church and nothing muste bee tollerated in the Churche he hathe but small iudgemente that can not tell that certayne thinges maye be tollerated and borne with for a tyme. Which if they were to be set in and placed could not be done without the great faulte of them that should place them Agayne are these of like waighte excepte it be commaunded in the worde of God and excepte it be expressed in the worde of God Many thinges are bothe commaunded and forbidden of whiche there is no expresse mention in the worde whiche are as (b) A Papisticall assertion necessarily to bee followed or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made Therefore vnlesse your weightes be truer if I coulde let it you shoulde waighe none of my wordes Heerevpon you conclude that their argumentes taken ab authoritate negatiue proue nothing When the question is of the authoritie of a man in deede it neither holdeth (c) Vntrue affirmatiuely nor negatiuely For as it is no good argument to saye it is not true bicause Aristotle or Plato sayde it not so is it not to saye it is true bicause they sayde so The reason whereof is bicause the infirmitie of man can neither attayne to the perfection of any thing whereby he mighte speake all things that are to be spoken of it neither yet bee free from errour in those thinges whiche hee speaketh or giueth oute and therefore this argument neither affirmatiuely nor negatiuely compelleth the heare but onely induceth him to some lyking or mislyking of that for whiche it is broughte and is rather for an Oratour to persuade the simpler sorte than for a disputer to inforce him that is learned But for so muche as the Lorde God determining to set before our eyes a perfecte forme of his Churche is bothe able to doe it and hathe done it a man maye reason bothe wayes necessarily The Lorde hathe commaunded it shoulde be in his Churche therefore it muste And of the other side he hath not commaunded therefore it muste not be And it is not harde to shewe that the Prophetes haue so reasoned negatiuely As when in the person of the Lorde the Prophet saythe whereof I haue not spoken and whiche neuer entred into my heart and as where he condemneth them Ierem. 7. ver 31. 32. Esay 30. V. 2 * bicause they haue not asked counsell at the mouth of the Lorde Io. Whitgifte This my interpretation of their wordes is grounded vpon the whole discourse and drifte of their booke as it may euidently appeare to be true to any that hathe eyes to sée and eares to heare and shewe you if you can any one place in their booke whiche dothe ouerthrowe this my interpretation of their wordes I knowe it is one thing to saye that nothing muste be placed in the Churche and an other thing to saye that nothing muste be tolerated but I sée that they make no difference betwéene them neither in their writing nor yet in their practise And I thinke also that there is some difference betwixte these two manner of spéeches excepte it be commaunded in the worde of God and excepte it be expressed in the worde of God For I knowe sundrie thinges to be expressed in the worde of God whiche are not commaunded as Christ his fasting fortie dayes and his other myracles and therefore by that interpretation I haue giuen vnto them a larger scope than they them selues require whiche if it be an iniurie it is to my selfe and not to them But I thinke you were not well aduised when you sayde that many things are both An vnaduised assertion of T. C. tending to Papistrie commaunded and forbidden of whiche there is no expresse mention in the word of God whiche are as necessarilie to be followed or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made If you meane that many things are commaunded or forbidden in the worde which are not expressed in the worde in my opinion you speake contraries For howe can it be commaunded or forbidden in the worde excepte it be also expressed in the same If you meane that many thinges are commaunded or forbidden to bée doone necessarie vnto saluation whiche notwithstanding are not expressed in the worde of God then I sée not howe you differ from that opinion whiche is the grounde of all Papistrie that is that all things necessary vnto saluation are not expressed in the scriptures How soeuer you meane it it can not be true for there is nothing necessarie to eternall life which What is sayd to be expressed in the Scripture is not bothe commaunded and expressed in the Scripture I counte it expressed when it is either in manyfest wordes contayned in Scripture or therof gathered by necessary collection If I had to doe with a Papist I coulde
to the word and yet not conteyned in the worde Men may haue an opinion of Religion and merite in suche thinges as they thinke not to be of necessitie to saluation To be shorte men may make that sinne whych the worde of God maketh not sinne as all those doe whiche forbid the vse of indifferent things and make the same vnlawfull as I haue sayde before You sée nowe that there is no one parte of this diuision as you call it which dothe not include something not conteyned in the other partes and therfore all those vnséemely and immodest tauntes and words mighte haue bin forborne I aske no forgiuenesse of you for any thing that I haue wrytten But I beséeche God forgyue you your outrageous contemptes and vnchristian floutes and iestes where with your booke is more pestered than any of Hardinges is where he sheweth him selfe moste scurrilous But I will omit them all and onely desire the Reader to consider of what spirite they come and in bothe our writings to respecte the matter not the person Touching the exposition of the places of Deut. let the learned Reader compare it with the expositions of the learned Interpreters and then iudge of my vnskilfull The Replier hath spēt many wordes in confuting that which he him selfe cōfesseth diuiding and defyning Here now I wold gladly know what T. C. hath proued agaynst the thing y t I haue here writtē or how he hath iustified y e propositiō of y e Admonition which I haue refelled for the sūme of al is this The authors of the Admonitiō say that those things onely are to be placed in the Churche which God him selfe in his worde commaundeth This I confesse to be true in matters of saluation and damnation But I saye it is vntrue in matters of ceremonies rites orders discipline and kinde of gouernmente which béeing externall matters and alterable are to be altered and chaūged appoynted and abrogated according to time place and person so that nothing be done agaynst the worde of God And T. C. confesseth page 15. that Pag. 15. Sect. 5. certayne things are lefte to the order of the Churche bicause they are of that nature which are varied by tymes places persons and other circumstances and so could not at once be set downe and established for euer and yet so lefte to the order of the Churche as that it doe nothing agaynst the rules aforesayde The same dothe he affirme in effecte in this place Nowe I pray you tell me what difference is there in our wordes he saythe that certayne thinges are lefte to the order of the Churche c. so that nothing bee done agaynst the rules aforesayde And I saye that the Church hath authoritie to appoynt orders rites ceremonies c. so that nothing be done agaynst the worde of God In déede he goeth muche further in this matter than I doe for where I saye The Scripture expresseth all things necessarie to saluation he affirmeth that many things are bothe commaunded and forbidden c. as I haue before noted and is to Pag. 13. Sect. 2. be séene page 13. of his booke But to ende this matter I haue iustified my assertion by the scriptures 1. Cor. 14. Act. 6. and. 15. 1. Cor. 11. Also by the testimonies of Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Cyprian Ambrose Basill Augustine c. Likewise by the practises of Councels the reporte of Historiographers as Socrates and Sozomenus Finally by the iudgement of late writers M. Caluin and Bucer Now will I also adde a fewe wordes for the further confirmation of the same and so ende this question ¶ The opinion of other late wryters of things indifferent The. 7. Chapter Zuinglius in his booke de baptis after that he had declared howe the Scripture contayneth Zuinglius all thinges necessarie vnto saluation he sheweth That in externall things and matters of ceremonies many things are to be vsed in the Churche whiche be not contayned in the Scriptures And speaking of this place Philip. 3. If any think otherwise God will also reueale the same vnto you neuerthelesse in that wherevnto we are come let vs proceede by one rule or agree among our selues saythe That the Apostle there speaketh of nothing else than of externall ceremonies and rites the vse and administration whereof the same Apostle in that place affyrmeth to be in our vvill and povver so that vve doe nothing repugnant to the commaundement of God Neyther trouble the publyke peace whereof we oughte to haue especiall regarde for externall thinges These be the very wordes of Zuinglius in the which there is first to be noted the interpretation of the words of the Apostle Philip. 3. Secondly that he vseth Collections out of Zuinglius this exception So that we doe nothing repugnant to the commaundement of God which T. C. so muche misliketh The same Zuinglius in the same booke verifieth in playne wordes that whiche I before haue touching a negatiue argument from the authoritie of the Scriptures Peter Martyr vpon the. 1. Corinth 1. wryteth That there be three kindes of traditions P. Martyr one expressed in the Scriptures an other playne repugnant to the worde of God The thirde neither contrarie to the worde of God nor yet necessarily ioyned to the same in the vvhich vve muste obey the Churche These three cautions beeing obserued First that they be not obtruded as worship of God or peculiar holynesse but as pertayning to order and the ciuill commoditie of the Churche and to comelynesse in diuine actions for all thinges be sufficiently contayned in Scriptures that pertayne to the worshipping of God and holynesse Secondly that they be not counted so necessarie but that they may be altered if time require Let the Churche keepe hir interest and authoritie in these indifferent things to appoynt vvhat shall be thoughte most necessarie and meete to edifying Last of all that the people of God be not burdened with to great a multitude of them Thus farre Martyr Gualter in his preface to the first Epistle to the Corinth after that he hath declared Gualter the diuersitie of rites vsed in diuerse Churches concludeth on this sort VVherefore S. Augustine writing to Ianuarius after that he had layde forth diuerse ceremonyes of Churches obserued in his time dyd very well thinke that this shoulde be the most safe rule vnto Christian men if they did frame them selues vnto those Churches wherevnto they should come in those things which might be done without any preiudice vnto fayth and godlynesse his wordes are these There is in these things meaning customes and rytes no better rule or instruction for a graue and wise Christian than that he do after that manner the which he seeth vsed of the Church vnto the which he shall peraduenture come c. The which moderation if all men woulde vse at this day there would be lesse contention in the Church neither shoulde Christian libertie be abridged by the superstitious traditions
persecution c. I say that as persecution was then a cause why baptisme as vsually mistred in priuate houses so necessitie is now y t cause why the same is ministred some tymes in priuate families Neither doe I mayntein or allow the administring of the sacraments in priuate families to be vsual or without vrgent cause but only vpon extreme necessitie of sicknesse peril of death such like In which cases as neuer any lerned man misliked ministring of the sacraments in such places so are not you able to shew either scripture doctor or reson to y t coÌ„trary whatsoeuer you say of y e tune of persecutioÌ„ touching y e matter y t same may be said of the time of necessitie also But here I would haue the Reader to note y t you are now driuen to confesse a difference in the Churche betwixte the tyme of persecution and the tyme of prosperitie and that to be conuenient in the one which is not conuenient for the other whiche distinction and diuersitie of tymes you would not before acknowledge to make any difference in the election of ministers and gouernment of the Churche and yet the case is all one Chap. 4. the. 4. Diuision Admonition They should fyrst proue that priuate CoÌ„munion c. are agreeable to the written word of god Answere to the Admonition Pag. 152. Sect. 2. If you meane by priuate Communion the Communion ministred to Of the communion ministred in priuate places one alone there is no such allowed in the boke of Common prayers but if you call it priuate bicause it is ministred sometimes in priuate houses to sicke persons Then haue we the example of Christe who ministred the Supper in a priuate house and inner parlour Mark 14. Luke 22. Math. 26. we haue also the example of the Apostles themselues who did minister the supper in priuate houses especially yf that place be vnderstanded of the supper whiche is in the seconde of the Acts and before alleadged of you to proue that common and vsuall bread ought to be in the Supper Likewise of the primitiue church as appeareth in the seconde apologie of Iustinus Martyr Tertull. de Corona militis and others T. C. Page 112. Sect. 2. And in the page 152. he bringeth other reasons to proue that the Sacramentes may be ministred in a priuate house wherof the fyrste is that our Sauiour Christe celebrated his Supper in a priuate house and in an inner parlour the reason whereof is easyly to be knowne for the lawe of God ordeyned that euery housholder in his house shoulde eate the passouer with his owne familie If it were so great as that they myght well eate vp a whole lambe Io. Whitgifte That is a reason why Christe did eate the passouer in a priuate house but it is no reason why he did celebrate his Supper there in lyke maner Wherefore my reason holdeth as yet Chap. 4. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 112. Sect. 3. Our sauiour Christ therfore with his housholde obserueth this law and for bicause he woulde declare that the passouer had his ende and that his holy Sacrament should come in place therof he doth foorthwith celebrate his supper in the same place which if he had not done neither could he haue done it at al the houre of his apprehension then approching neyther should it so lyuely haue appeared that eyther the passouer was abolished or that the Supper came in place of it beeyng celebrated both at an other tyme and in an other place Io. Whitgifte Our Sauiour Christes example of instituting and ministring his supper in a priuate familie giuing afterwarde no commaundement to the contrarie is a manifest proofe that the place is not of the substance of the sacramente and that vpon occasion it may be ministred in a priuate house You shewe a reason why Chryste at that Unnecessarie proofe tyme and in that place did minister his Supper but you shewe no reason why wée may not in lyke maner vpon necessarie occasion celebrate the Communion in the lyke place Chap. 4. the. 6. diusion T. C. pag. 112. sect vlt. For the celebrating of the Supper in houses in the Apostles tymes and in Iustinus and Tertullians tymes which were tymes of persecution I haue spoken before where also I declared that suche houses for the tyme are not priuate but publike Io. Whitgifte This answere is as fitte for me as it is for you for admit that the Sacraments may be administred in priuate families in the case of necessitie and I aske no mâ—â—â— For if persecution be a necessarie cause why is not sickenesse and perill of dâ—â—th so in lyke maner agayne if a priuate house be no priuate but a publike place when for the feare of persecution the Sacramentes be ministred in it why is it not so lykewise when they be there ministred for extremitie of sickenesse and feare of death the reason is all one and the case of necessitie like and therfore you haue not sayde any thing agaynst me but with me Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. 1. And these are his reasons wher with he would proue that the sacraments and therfore also the sacrament of Baptisme may be ministred in a priuate house Io. Whitgifte And these reasons haue you confirmed rather than confuted but to the contrarie Circumcision in priuate houses you haue shewed no reason at all and therfore these stand in ful force to the which I might adde that circumcision was celebrated in priuate families as M. Caluine truly gathereth vpon the. 58. verse of the first chapter of Luke which is a better argument to proue that the Sacramentes may be ministred in priuate places than you haue shewed any to the contrarie ¶ The Sacramentes ministred by other than Ministers Chap. 5. The fyrst Diuision Admonition Then by ministers (vv) Mat. 28. 19 1. Cor. 4. 1 only nowe by Midwyues and Deacons equally Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 93. Sect. 2. That then the Sacraments wer ministred only by ministers you Whether any may minister the sacramentes besides the minister alledge the. 28. of Math. which place is answered before Likewise 1. Cor 4. Let a man so think of vs as of the ministers of Christ disposers of the mysteries of God Here is not one word for your purpose except you take mysteries for sacramentes which if you doe you are much What mystâ—ries be deceiued for by the word mysteries here he vnderstandeth the word of God and gospell of Christ as al learned writers do interprete it Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to the vnapt allegation of the. 1. Cor. 4. Chap. 5. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 93. Sect. 2. We reade in the eight of the Actes that Philip a Deacon did baptize Philip deacon baptised Moyses wife 〈◊〉 circumcise wee reade also that Moyses wife did circumcise But where doth this Churche of Englande allowe any woman to baptize or deacon
with the fault of the print or by carping at the translation when the wordes being changed the sense remayneth or by alleadging that such a one or such another was of this or that iudgement as you for the most part hauing nothing but his bare name haue done All whiche thinges you haue committed in this booke ▪ but that you confute it by the authoritie of the worde of God by good and sound reasons wholy and not by peecemeale And if you bring the practise of the churches we desire that it may be out of authorities which are extant which are not counterfeyte and which were in the best and purest times And if you thinke that the credite of your Doctor ship or Deanry will beare out that which you cannot answer your selfe besides that * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is neuer shut ▪ remember M. Doctor that lighte is come into tht worlde and The reuenging eye men will not be deluded with nothing nor abused with visards neyther let it embolden you which peraduenture hathe made poli presume the more in ▪ this booke to write any thing vppon hope that no man dare answer it For neyther the Queenes Maiestie nor hir honorable counsell as we are perswaded will deale so sharply with those whome they know to be faithfull and lawfull subiects which pray that all the treasures of Gods wisedome may be poured vpon them neither haue we cause to thinke but that as the euill opinion which is in part conceiued of vs hath growen vppon false and vntrue informations whiche you and such other haue giuen in crying in their eares that we be Anabaptists conspired with Papists Puritanes Donatists bringers in of confusion and anarchy enimies to ciuill gouernment and I know not what euen so when hir Maiestie and their honours shall vnderstand how farre we are from those wicked opinions they will leaue that opinion of vs ▪ and rather esteeme of vs by that we haue preached taught and now write than that whiche other men report of vs being thinges which we neuer taught ▪ spake or so much as dreamed of Io. Whitgifte It is so farre from satisfying me in any point that it greatly confirmeth me in some thing where vnto before I did but incline Such is the weakenesse of your grounds Your request made vnto me is against all reason for how can you require that of The Replye requireth that of others which he him selfe woulde not performe me towarde you which you haue in no respect perfourmed towards me for firste you haue not set downe my booke that the Reader mighte perceiue how vprightly you deale with me secondly you haue passed ouer many thinges and left them vnanswered Thirdly you haue vnreasonably wrested my words and in most places you do nothing but wrangle you haue mangled my booke and so skipt from place to place that the Reader shall hardly perceine what you take or what you leaue to be short you haue vsed few scriptures and those vntollerably wrested How then can you require the contrary of me But I haue satisfied your request to the full I trust saue only I do not intend to learne of you how to answer what authoritie to vse but if the authorities and reasons that I bring shall be sound to be light they shall the more easily by you be remoued I depend not vppon the credit of my Doctorship or Deanry neither would I wish you too much to trust to the opinion of your owne learning and witte I say with Sainte Augustine Let scripture be compared with scripture reason with reason authoritie with authoritie cause with cause and let vs both according to the same be iudged I doubte not of the answering of my booke neyther do I feare it you knowe that Conference by writing hath bin often offered to the Replier I haue offered you diuerse tymes this kind of conference though not in thys publike manner I haue spoken nothing agaynste you before hir maiestie whyche your bookes and doings haue not proued to be true Hir Maiestie and their honours know what they haue to do the Lord blisse them with his holy spirit and in all their doings guide them Of the additions detractions and alterations made by the admonitors in both the partes of the Admonition T. C. Pag. 173. Sect. 1. Beside that often thne M. Doctor doth account the expositions and explanations corrections he ueth vs somewhat the lesse hope that he will correct his errours for that he purfueth the authours of the Admonition so harde correcting their very small and few slips whiche they haue made calling this singular destie and commendable hum tie amongst other reproches dalying and inconstancie when it is our profession euery day to learne better things For vnto what end should we liue if time if experiēce if reading iusing if conference should teach vs nothing And therefore when thinges are printed againe it is good and prayse worthy to polishe those thynges which are some what rud to mitigate these things which are too sharpe to make playne to giue light to those things which seeme darker and to correct that which is amisse I thinke M. Doctor should not be ignorante that wise men haue their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there second councells and those also wiser and better than their first as that sentence doth declare I will therefore say no more hereof but admonish M. Doctor that he receiue more louingly those whiche correcte themselues seing that the best defense to his booke must be not a correction here and there but a cleane blotting or striking out not an amending but a new making almost of his whole booke Other matter in his censures he hath almost none at all woorth the answering sauing that he hathe a place or two which toucheth the matters before entreated of Io. Whitgifte It behoueth such as will take vpon them to plucke downe that which is wel builded They whiche wil pul down the olde and place a newe platforme oughte to be v rie circumspecte and to make a new platforme to be well aduised what they do and assured of their cunning if this ought to be in humane matters and in externall affaires of the life of man how much more ought it to be in diuine matters and things perteyning to the kingdome of heauē I do not mislike that modestie and humilitie that is contente to be corrected and to acknowledge that whiche is ami e. But I can by no meanes allowe that pryde and arrogancie that presuming to condemne the whole state of a Churche and to prescribe vnto the same a newe platforme is by and by after through vnskilfulnesse and lack of discretion at the first constreyned to misselyke that newe platforme also and to p ce it and patch it like a beggers cloke with putting too and taking fro with altering and chaunging sometyme this and sometyme that like vnto foolishe and vnskilful buylders It behoueth suche as will take vpon them
it be vpon occasion of sicknesse c as I haue before declared he woulde haue all or the moste parte that be present to communicate and who defendeth the contrarie and yet if they will not the rest may not be secluded his whole drift is to reproue such as will not communicate and not to prohibite the distribution of the Supper to those that be willing be they moe or be they fewer so that there be a competent number that it may be a Communion T. C. M. Beza against VVestphalus sheweth that it is not decent that baptisme be ministred but in the Church and that at standing houres and by the ministers and further that vpō no necessitie as it is called it ought to be ministred in priuate houses And that if it might be ministred in priuate houses yet not otherwise than by Ministers Io. Whitgifte You vntruely report M. Beza his wordes he onely sheweth in that place what the order of the Church is where he remaineth he doth not prescribe any certaine rule for all Churches neyther is it méete that he shoulde in such cases He so speaketh of baptizing in priuate houses that he doth not simplie condemne it But what soeuer his iudgement is in that poynt his mynd is not I am sure to bynde all other Churches to the same which thinke and teach as soundly of this Sacrament as he doth or can do though they agrée not with him in all circumstances T. C. M. Caluin in his Institutions 4. booke chapter 15. sect 20. 21. proueth that baptisme ought not to be ministred by priuate men or by any women Io. Whitgifte Only ministers of the Church are y e ordinarie ministers of baptisme neither may any other chalenge that function vnto thēselues ordinarily but yet if vpon occasion a priuate person do baptise the baptisme is good and lawfull euen as the circumcision was true circumcision that was ministred by Sephora As I haue proued Tract 9. cap. 5. T. C. ◠The iudgement of those late writers touching ceremonies and apparell whose secrete Epistles M. Doctor alledgeth appeareth by these places following cited out of their works printed and published by themselues Wherof also some are alledged by the answerer to the examiner where are diuers other places to this purpose wherevnto I referre the Reader M. Bucer vpon the. 18. of Mathewe saith that they say nothing which do alwayes obiect that greater things must be vrged than the reformation of ceremonies thereby defending the reliques of Antichrist for as much as ceremonies are testimonies of Religion And that as there is no agreement betweene Christe and Belial so those whiche are sincere Christians can abide nothing of Antichrist Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer sayth truely for the reformation of ceremonies is to be sought and not to be neglected neyther can sincere Christians abyde any thing of Antichriste as it is Antichristes but what is all this to the purpose is there no reformation of ceremonies in this Church of Englande from the whiche all Antichristian ceremonies are abandoned and those that remaine purged from al opinion of Antichristianitie And that M. Bucer ment nothing lesse than the ceremonies nowe reteined in this Church of Englande as we vse them it maye euidently appeare by that whiche I haue alledged out of him Tract 7. cap. 5. the. 5. diuision and chap. 7. diuision 4. T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 10. chap. of the second boke of the Kings saith that the Lutherans must take heede least whilest they cutte off many Popishe errors they followe Iehu by reteining also many Popish things For they defende still the reall presence in the bread of the Supper and Images and Vestiments c. and saith that religion must be wholly reformed to the quick Io. Whitgifte M. Martyr nameth the Popishe things which the Lutherans obserue to be the reall presence images all the Popish apparell which they vsed in their Masse for so doth he meane which this Church hath refused What his opinion is of this apparell that we reteine I haue declared tract 7. chap. 5. the. 4. diuision where he of purpose speaketh concerning the same God be thanked Religion is wholly reformed euen to the quicke in this Churche T. C. Bullinger in his Decades 5. Booke and ninth Sermon saythe that our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles vsed their accustomed apparell in the Supper and that although in tymes paste the Ministers put on a kynde of cloake vpon their common apparell yet that was done neyther by the example of Chryste nor of his Apostles but by the tradition of man and that in the ende after the example of the Priestes apparell in the olde lawe it was caste vpon the Ministers at the ministration of the Supper But sayth hee we haue learned long agoe not onely that all Leuiticall ceremonies are abrogated but also that they ought to be brought agayne into the Churche of no man And therfore seeing we are in the light of the Gospell and not vnder the shadowe of the lawe we do worthily reiecte that Massing Leuiticall apparell Io. Whitgifte Neyther do we reteine the massing Leuiticall apparell but that apparell onely which Bullinger himselfe alloweth of in diuers Epistles written of purpose touching these matters as I haue expressed Tract 7. Chapter 5. the. 6. Diuision c. T. C. Gualter vpon the. 21. of the Actes among others bringeth this for one reason to improue Paules shauing of his head for that the Gospel had beene preached twentie yeares and that therefore the infirmitie of the Iewes ought not to haue bene borne with And after he saith that that teacheth howe muche the superstitious Maisters of ceremonies hurte the Gospell which nourishe the weaknesse of fayth by the long keping of ceremonies and by their long bearing hinder the doings of those ministers which are more feruent Io. Whitgifte M. Gualter in these wordes sayth nothing against any poynt of this Churche he speaketh truely and nothing to your purpose M. Gualter hath sufficiently shewed his opinion in these matters not onely in written Epistles but in printed bookes as in his Epistle before his commentaries vpō the first to the Corinthians Surely there is no suche weight in these authorities for your purpose that you can take any great aduauntage of them indéede your cause in my opinion hath won small credite by alledging of them ¶ Imprinted at London by Henry Bynneman for Humfrey Toy dvvelling in Paules Churchyard at the signe of the Helmet ANNO. 1574.