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book_n	wrath_n	write_v	year_n	36	3	4.5545	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A04541	An inquirie and ansvver of Thomas VVhite his discoverie of Brovvnisme. By Francis Iohnson Pastor of the exiled English Church at Amsterdam in Holland	Johnson, Francis, 1562-1618.; White, Thomas, fl. 1605. Discoverie of Brownisme: or a brief declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practiced and increased among the English company of the seperation remayning for the present at Amsterdam in Holland.	1606 (1606)	STC 14662; ESTC S119435	86,205	110

sentence my self if the Church should so appoint By which compared with his writing may appeare how still he keepeth on his woonted course against vs hath himself drawen fourth this vnfolding of his evill dealing and his wives too For the others of whom he speaketh viz Mrs Sl. Goodw. Ch. R. M. they were excommunicated for other causes then he hath noted downe And it is not our maner to cast out any for differēce of iudgement in such cases if they be content notwithstanding to walk peaceably with the Church and to cary themselves towards the excommunicates as they should by the word ●f God But if they joyne with them in their evill as some of these more specially did with his wife then are they also for so doing justly subiect to the ●ame censure with them as in this case likewise came to passe That which he speaketh of the Magistrate is false he did not forbid but perswaded vs not to do it Though if he had or should forbid vs any thing which God requireth at our hands we have learned to obey God rather then man As we did then answer him that what we did we would alwayes be ready to approue by the word of God And now by that which hath bene said let the Reader judge whether this fellowes hard forehead verify not the Oratours saying He that 〈◊〉 passeth the bounds of modestie becommeth imp●dent out of measure Excommunication we vse as the holy ordinaunce of God to recover the parties that have sinned if so it be his will and to keep the Church from the leaven of their wickednes If we did it not we should dishonour God and be accessary to their evill But observing it we vse the remedie which Christ hath given vs for their good and if it work not so in them then is their destruction the more iust vpon their heads and we are cleare Neyther doth the long suffring spirit of meeknes hinder but that due execution of the Lords judgement vpon obstinate sinners be inflicted And being so done neyther will this mans cursing vs for good hurt vs not his blessing of himself others in evill help them Therefore to his many curses denounced against vs I will give no other answer but say with Salomon The curse causeles shall not come but fly away as a birde and returne vpon him that allegation out of the Prophet As he loved cursing so shall it come vnto him and as he loved not blessing so shall it ●e farre from him and as he clothed himself with cursing like a garment so shall it come into his bowels like water like oyle into his bones And for his blessing of himself and others in evill I will referre him to that denuntiation of Moses against every such one as when he heareth the wordes of the curse yet blesseth himself in his heart saying I shall have peace although I walk according to the stubburnes of mine owne heart 〈◊〉 adding drunkennes to thirst The Lord will not be mercifull vnto him but then the wrath of the Lord and his ielousy shall smoke against that man every curse that is written in the book of the Law shall light vpon him and the Lord shall put out his name from vnder heaven and the Lord shall separate him vnto evill out of all the tribes of Israell according vnto all the curse● of the covenaunt that 〈◊〉 written in the book of the Law Deut. 29. ●9 20.21 For that which he speak●th of our Tents it is to be noted that this man himself desiring heretofore to partake with vs in the Lords supper did in our publick meeting compare our and all true Churches to the Tents of Shem the assemblies of the Church of England whither now he is returned to the Tents of Corah Dathan Abiram What remayneth therefore but that according to the words of his owne mouth and course of his own walking he be left to the Lord the iealous God that judged Corah his cōpany Who also is the God of Shem will performe to the sōnes of Iapheth whō he perswadeth to dwell in Shems tents according to his promise made of old to Abraham sonne of Shem Father of the faithfull of all nations saying I will blesse them that blesse thee and curse them that curse thee Gen. 12.3 For that which he annexeth about fatherles children himself knoweth we approve no such dealing And some of the persons to whom they were comitted are departed this life The living belike could not serve his turne but he will digge into the graves of the dead who cannot answer for themselves Or if he meane of any that are alive why gave he not after his maner some knowledg who they be Would he not that the matter should have ben considered and answer made accordingly Or would he that we should speake what we heare concerning a fatherles child who was long since with that woman who is now this Whites wife and ran away from her who knoweth best her self how she vsed her For our selues we mislike all hard and evill vsage of any much more savage and cruell dealing to fatherles children who ought most of all to be pityed and holpen If any such have more specially felt their part of our common troubles and poverty why will he not consider his Lords the Prelates their savage and cruell dealing with vs who have made many poore orphanes and widowes among vs besides many other great calamities brought vpon vs by their meanes Of which to begin to speak were to enter into an Ocean sea so many and great they are and not vnknowen to this White himself howsoever he can like now to sayle in that sea where putting away a good conscience he hath concerning the faith made shipwrack For that which he saith of W.C. the man himself affirmeth that be spake not these words at all which he hath printed of him and that he told this Whites wife before the book was published and spake it synce to his owne face that it is a lye Some words he confesseth he spake which were evill but those also spoken by him about a yeare before he ioyned to the Church as himself testifyeth Yet White obiecteth his speach as the confession of our own members affirming also what he hath printed to be spoken before many witnesses Which if it were yet till we should know it after knowledg dealing with him find him obstinate in such evill how could we but have him still a member among vs But if such speaches yea or publick writings of the members of the Church of England would content men as White will with this content himself how easy were it for his one to to produce a thousand and none of them perverted neyther The conclusion of his Libell is like the rest The censures of Christ in his Church he blasphemously calleth our fond excommunications which before in like manner he

effect But if he meane that they prayed with like intendement and in like manner as Christ now taught the Apostles and Christians hereafter to do he is deceived For in their prayers they intended and looked at Christ to come they prayed that God would send him according to his promise that he might performe the things spoken concerning him c. But now Christ directed all hereafter to pray in his Name as being come and exhibited according to the promises that went before concerning him Ioh. 14.13.14 16.23.24 4. The purpose of Christ in giving this forme of Prayer was not onely to teach to pray to this effect but to give direction also concerning all other things that are needfull to be knowen and observed in the right vse of prayer As in other books already published we have shewed in divers particulars Objection 3. Whatsoever Scripture hath in every respect the forme of prayer that is ●ot alone matter of Doctrine but hath bene vsed also as Prayer But this Scripture Math. 6.9 hath in every respect the forme of prayer as Our Father give vs leade vs and amen annexed in the end ergo And in deed how can they tell which were prayers and which not if not by their forme of Petition whereby they are distinguished from Doctrines and rules proposed in an other forme as Mat. 7.7 21.22 1 Ioh. 5.14 Answer 1. The Proposition or first part of the reason needeth proof if he speak of the vse of the very words as they are set downe But if he speak onely of praying for such things to such end and in such maner as is recorded then we graunt it and he speaketh nothing against vs but fighteth with his owne shadow 2. For some instances herein let these Scriptures be considered Ier. 31.7 Hos. 14.3.4 Ioel. 2.17 which haue in every respect the forme of prayer and yet were given to be directions of the matter and maner of the prayers which then they should make and not to prescribe thē the very words which they should vse As likewise in this particular of Mat. 6.9 13. compared with Luk. 11.2.3 4. 3. For the Assumption or second part of the reason that it is propounded in forme of prayer see the answer before pag. 31. And let them now at length tell vs if it were so to be vsed as they say whether we should follow Mathew or Luke therein and whether we should at the end thereof vse the conclusion and say Amen or not seing Mathew hath it so and Luke not 4. The very propounding of it in forme of Petition conteyneth in it great and needfull Doctrine for the right vse of Prayer Of which also see before pag 31. 5 The Scriptures and rules of Prayer here mentioned by himself Mat. 7.7 and 21.22 1 Ioh. 5.14 shew that neither Christ intended nor the Apostles vnderstood it so that those very words as they are set downe should be our prayer vnto God For which observe these clauses Aske seek knock As a sonne asketh of h●● father bread or fish c. Mat. 7.7 11. Whatsoever ye aske c. Mat. 21.22 If we aske any thing according to his will c. 1 Ioh. 5.14 Thincketh he when Christ commended vnto vs the needfull carefull and fervent vse of prayer saying Aske seek knock c. that his meaning was Get by rote and say over Our father which art in heaven c. Or is the saying of these words prayer to God as when a child being hungry commeth to his father and asketh bread or having bread asketh fish or other food according to his need Or why did Christ vse such a generall clause Whatsoever ye aske and Iohn If we aske any thing according to his will c. if they had meant we should for our prayer vse that forme spoken of wherein they knew are conteyned all things that can possibly be asked according to the will of God Or should we therefore vse these words onely for our prayers and no other at all But of this question we have written other where already Which may suffice till we be answered Objection 4. 4. In a duty to be vsed of all the holy Ghost is playne but if those very words are not to be vsed as Prayer no Christian for 1500. year●s more did ever vnderstand our Lords meaning Answer 1 Salomon answereth relating the words of Christ that they are all plaine to him that will vnderstand and streight to them that will find knowleledge Prov. 8.9 2. In the duties ●o be vsed of all about the Sacraments c. the holy Ghost is plaine yet have Christians swarved from our Lords meaning therabout as long since as he speaketh of yea even in the Apostles times they began in divers things to go astray therefrom as any that is acquainted with the Scriptures may perceive 3. If erroneous pleading frō former times without scripture were proof sufficient how many and great errors might be pleaded for As the Antichristians do for a multitude of their heresies and abhominations which I will not stand here to particulate 4. See also what is answered before when to like purpose he alledged Tertullians testimonie pag. 23. c. Exception 1. But they say that the Apostles never vsed those very words in prayer I answer 1. An expresse commaundement is warrant sufficient without example Answer He taketh for graunted that which he should prove namely that there is an expresse commaundement so to vse it as he pretendeth Of which point we haue spoken before And let the Reader observe how he cannot shew by any Scripture at all that the Apostles vsed those words for their prayer at any time Neyther can he deny but they vnderstood it aright and prayed according to the true meaning thereof Exception 2. 2. There is no example in the whole book of Gen. of the observation of the Sabaoth for 2369. yeares space after the institution of it Gen. 2. Neither to come nearer is there any example of baptising in the name of the Father Sonne and holy Ghost yet is the commaundement of Christ sufficient warrant so to do Compare Math. 28.19 with Act. 10.48 19.5 Answer What a reason is this As if we thought nothing were observed of old whereof there is not mention in the history or as if no difference were to be put in the vnderstanding of the Scriptures but that if one be vnderstood litterally then must all other likewise He might aswell have told vs we read not in the Scriptures that Methuselah did ever eat any meat and yet lived 969 yeares the longest of any that are mentioned in the storie And for the Apostles and others at that time administring Baptisme how plaine is it in the Scriptures cited by himself that they baptised in the Name of the Lord as they were appointed If he could shew but in generall termes that the Apostles at any time when they prayed sayd over the Lords prayer though it be not