mans right and yet will not allow him the benefit of having the Will to plead on his own behalf And this is plainly the course of the Roman Church in the present case for the Rulers withhold the Scripture from the people that they may the more easily detain them in a blind obedience to those Doctrines and commands of their own which are contrary to it and which they will not have examined by it And you may well suspect the man has bad wares to put off who will expose them no where but in a dark shop It 's much to be feared that Guide means not well who would have my eyes put out or fast closed that I may follow him blindfold He that teaches falshood as well as he that does evil is afraid of the light that will discover his error But to conclude this whatever Papists may talk of the obscurity of Scripture the true reason why they keep it out of the peoples hands is because it is too plain I mean because it so plainly contradicts several Doctrines and practices that are now current in their Church So plainly does the second Commandment forbid all worship of Images that by their good will they would not have it come into the peoples sight And as plainly doth the holy Scripture in other places forbid the worship of Angels or Saints having Prayers in an unknown tongue the taking away the Cup from the Laity plainly it confutes their Doctrine of Transubstantiation whilst it calls the holy Elements bread after Consecration In these and several other instances doth Scripture so plainly make against them that no wonder if therefore they are so much against the Scripture as that they will not commonly permit the people to read it but keep back from them this key of knowledg L. This seems to be the true reason but so bad a one that they are ashamed to own it And now I return you unseigned thanks for the pains you have taken to confirm me in the truth and to shew me the vanity and weakness of those arguings wherewith they of the Church of Rome do endeavour to excuse and palliate their gross errors and to impose upon common people who are sometimes easily misled T. No great wonder if with their subtilties they impose upon such as cannot well distinguish betwixt specious pretences and solid reasonings And indeed they do in some measure deserve to be imposed upon who will so far trust to their own weak judgments as not to seek direction and assistance from those who are able to give it but do presently conclude that if they themselves cannot answer a cunning Priest no body esse can and thereupon without more ado become his easie proselytes especially when some worldly interest draws them to it which is an argument quickly discerned but not easily resisted Yet it 's strange to see how these same persons when they are gone off from our Church presently seem so humble and modest as to suspect their own judgments they commonly refuse to discourse with our Ministers pretending they are not fit to meddle with controversies nor hold disputes They now refer themselves wholly to the Church their own Sect the Romish Church that must be their Judge and their Guide They might before dispute and yield and be Judges for themselves when they left our Church but now forsooth they are got as the Priest tells them whose word they must take for it into an infallible Church whose Doctrines and commands must never be questioned or examined nor any thing heard that can be objected against them All must be swallow'd without chewing they must believe as the Church believes though what that is they do not well know This is the way that Romish Priests commonly take with them and a cunning way it is for securing of the Converts they have once made but so grosly partial that a man of ordinary discretion may readily discern it and no sincere lover of truth will be drawn to comply with it For how can any man answer it to God or his own conscience to depart from that Church wherein he has been baptized and educated without a fair hearing what can be said for it and when he is drawn away into another Church becomes so fixed and resolute that he 'l hear nothing that can be said against it But you I confess have acted at another rate and I cannot but commend your ingenuity and diligence herein which I pray God to succeed for your establishment in that holy Religion in which you have hitherto been instructed and from which I hope you 'l never be perverted For it is the very truth of God taught by his Son Jesus in his holy Gospel the only infallible rule of Faith and Manners L. I do stedfastly believe that it is so and by the grace of God will never depart from it T. Does your Author meddle with no other points of controversie betwixt us and the Church of Rome L. He mentions no more that I find looking upon these I suppose as most material but toward the end of this Chapter he heaps up many bitter invectives against our Ministers as if they spoke ill of the Romish Church out of meer malice against their consciences only to make Papists envied and hated and that they often cite the holy Scripture to no purpose or to an ill one and do also falsifie and cut off what is not to their liking yea and have put whole Books out of the number of Canonical Scriptures in fine that they do all as the toy takes them without thinking of any judgment or hell to come after T. This is very severe indeed but so grosly false and spiteful that it deserves no more notice or answer than the revilings of an angry scold Only to the last heavy charge of putting out whole Books of Holy Scripture I shall answer a few words and leave you to judge of the rest by what truth you shall find in this accusation Know then that as to the New Testament we receive for Canonical all the same Books which the Church of Rome it self does and all other Christian Churches in the world so far as ever I have heard And as to the Old Testament we receive all those Books which were acknowledged for Canonical by the Iewish Church who are very competent witnesses in this case or by the Christian Church for four hundred years after our Saviour as learned Writers of our Church have demonstrated and particularly Bishop Cozens before named in his History of the Canon of Scripture As to those Books which are called Apocryphal though we have them not in the same esteem with the Sacred Writings of the Old and New Testament yet we have a just value for them as the works of pious men and of great antiquity and our Church appoints Lessons out of them to be publickly read though not on the Lords days thereby recommending them to the people who have them in their
A DIALOGUE BETWIXT TWO PROTESTANTS In Answer to a Popish Catechism CALLED A Short Catechism against all Sectaries Plainly shewing That the Members of the Church of ENGLAND are no Sectaries but true Catholicks and that our Church is a sound part of Christ's Holy Catholick Church in whose Communion therefore the people of this Nation are most strictly bound in Conscience to remain In Two Parts If any man preach any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received let him be accursed Gal. 1. 9. LONDON Printed for Samuell Tidmarsh at the Kings-Head in Cornhill next House to the Royal Exchange 1685. THE PREFACE I Do not think there needs any excuse to be made for answering a Book written against our Religion If there were I could truly produce that common one of being put upon it by Friends For it 's now more than a year since some very worthy Friends to whom my Obligations are too great to dispute their Commands did put into my bands a little Popish Book called A Short Catechism against all Sectaries said to be Translated by C. M. desiring me to write a plain Answer thereto by way of Dialogue such as might be fitted for the capacities of common people In obedience to whom I presently betook my self to the work wherein I have proceeded very slowly being daily interrupted with other employments But now at length having finish'd it I present it to the World heartily wishing it may have a success answerable to the truth and goodness of the cause I maintain and to the design both of my self in Writing and Publishing it and of my Friends in putting me upon it I am not so vain as to pretend to have said any thing new on a Subject so very common and which for a long time hath exercised the Pens of very many persons of greatest Wil and Learning both in our own and other Nations Let it suffice what I hope without any vanity may be said that I think I have here delivered certain and solid Truth in plain and easie Words that even he that runs may read and understand the same I can also truly add that in answering this my Popish Author I have used all manner of honest and fair dealing as becomes a sincere Lover of Truth I have not indeed always followed him word for word especially not in his second and third Chapters in the former of which he endeavours to prove That Protestants have not the marks of a true Church in the latter That the Church of Rome hath them These two I have handled together and though I have left out much of his reviling Language which I thought needed no answer nor deserved any notice yet I do not know that I have past over any one Argument either there or in any other place Some perhaps may look on it as a fault that I have often followed him too punctually which has occasioned the frequent repetition of the same things but this may be useful to some Readers If I have not every where quoted his very words as for the most part I have done yet I am sure I have never willingly misrepresented his sense nor proposed his Arguments with disadvantage but rather have added what I thought might give strength thereto And as I know not that I have any where overlooked one Argument without answering it so neither have I returned any answer but what in my Conscience I thought to be just and true and with which my own mind is well satisfied I have not so confined my self to this Author but that I have also taken notice of some other points which he never mentions And though I may be far enough from having spoken to all that are in controversy betwixt us and the Church of Rome yet I think I have not wholly omitted those which are of greatest weight At least I am well assured that I have said enough to satisfy any considering impartial person that there is not the least reason why any Man should depart from the Communion of the Church of England and betake himself to that of Rome Since the Romish Church has no manner of Authority over us and is moreover guilty of retaining and imposing such gross and dangerous Errors and Corruptions as render her Communion utterly unlawful and unsafe even to those who have been born and bred in her bosom How unreasonable then is it for us to revolt to her And indeed my chief design in this undertaking is to confirm those of our own Church in strict Communion with it having little hope of bringing over many Proselytes from the Church of Rome Where I can expect but few Readers I must not look for many Converts Those Guides who are not willing to trust their People with the Holy Scriptures which yet they say are on their side will be less willing they should read the Books of those whom they account their Enemies and too oft they account us so as the Jews did our Saviour meerly for telling them the truth But if any of that Persuasion should be so ingenuous as to give this little Book a fair Reading and shall bring along with him a mind as free from passion and prejudice as the Author had in Writing it I dare say that it will either perswade him to become a Member of our most excellent Church or at least convince him that we who are already so have great reason not to depart from it Since this our departure beside all other faults involved in it would render us guilty of an apparent Schism And this guilt I reckon is most justly chargeable on the Papists amongst us And not on them only but also on those Protestant Dissenters as they are commonly called of what Denomination soever who separate from us into distinct Societies which they set up in opposition to our Church as by Law established For if in this Church all things needful to salvation are afforded and no sinful condition imposed then do they make a causeless sinful separation who withdraw from its Communion Neither can these our Dissenters justly plead the same Arguments for their Separation from us that our Church can for its withdrawing from the Church of Rome or rather for Reforming her self from the corruptions of that Church as I have briefly shewn toward the end of this Treatise They who would see this more fully demonstrated let them read a Discourse which purposely handles this Subject being one of the Cases lately Written as is said by some of the London Ministers And indeed I scarce know any Books that I would sooner recommend to the Common Reader for his direction in these matters than all those Discourses which treat of the several points in difference betwixt our Church and the Non-conformists and also of some of those betwixt us and the Papists And are generally Written with such clearness of judgment and with such calmness and good temper as may render them more acceptable and more useful through God's
they may be eased there or released thence by the Masses that are said for them or by the alms that were either left by themselves or are given by their friends on their behalf L. But he attempts to prove both a Purgatory and praying for the Dead from 2 Mac. 12. where it 's said to be an holy and healthful cogitation to pray for the Dead that they may be freed from their sins that is says he from venial sins for of mortal no pardon can hereafter be obtain'd T. To let pass his distinction of venial and mortal sins is he not think you reduced to miserable straits when he is forced to run to the Apocrypha for a Text to a Book which was never own'd for Canonical by the Iewish Church no nor by the Christian Church in St. Ierome's time which was about four hundred years after our Saviour Neither yet will this Text serve their turn for if you look into the place you will find that when Iudas went to bury those that were slain he found under their coats things consecrated to Idols whereupon both he and the rest that were with him betook themselves to earnest prayer for the pardon of this great sin which prayer might respect the living rather than the dead that God would not punish the rest of the people for this their crime And for the very same reason might he send money to Ierusalem to offer a sin-offering as is after related And though another gloss is put upon it in the History as if all this were done for the dead yet may this be the Historians own opinion or perhaps rather his that abridged the History for Chap. 2. 23. he tells you that he abridged five Books of Iason and at the end begs pardon for what he may have done amiss which is not like the stile of an inspired Writer But what if Iudas's design was indeed such as the Historian relates Is his example a sufficient warrant for us when we have no rule for it in the Word of God Nay nor yet after all will this Text justifie their Doctrine of Purgatory since here 's nothing said of any pains they were in at present only he might hope to procure mercy for them at the Resurrection L. But pray was not this sin of Idolatry a mortal one for which according to their own Doctrine sinners go to Hell and not to Purgatory therefore by their principles this practice of Judas cannot be allow'd T. Very true but for this Bellarmine has a shift at hand that Iudas in charity hoped they might repent just when they were at the point of death and therefore in that hope offered those Sacrifices But I wonder how he came to know Judas's thoughts so well and 't is hard to imagine what time they should have for repentance who were slain in the battel Has your Author no better proof out of Scripture for his opinion than this comes to L. He names no more Texts but these T. And truly he might as well have named none at all Others do insist on some other places but to as little purpose which I shall not now take notice of since I suppose he took these for the strongest and you see what little strength there is in them L. I hear them speak much of the custom of the ancients in praying for the dead T. But herein they are guilty of great sophistry and foul dealing for the prayers anciently used were nothing like those that are now in the Romish Church nor do they in the least prove the ancient Christians belief of a Purgatory For they in their prayers made a commenmoration of the most eminently pious and holy persons even of Prophets Apostles and Martyrs as an honour to their memory blessing and praising God for them in some sort as we do in our Church at the end of the Prayer for the Church militant where we bless God for all his Saints and servants departed this life in his faith and fear c. Besides this they prayed for their joyful Resurrection and the consummation of their happiness which was in effect no more than to pray for the coming of Christ when all believers shall be advanced to the height of glory And not unlike this is an expression in our Liturgy in the Office for Burial where we pray That God would accomplish the number of his Elect and hasten his Kingdom that we with all those who are departed in the true faith of his holy name may have our perfect consummation and bliss both in body and soul in his eternal glory And yet it 's well known how far our Church is from acknowledging a Purgatory neither therefore from any such expressions used in their prayers can it rationally be concluded that the Church anciently own'd this opinion Of this you may find a full account in A. B. Usher's answer to the Jesuits Challenge But if among some of the Ancients there may be found expressions that go somewhat farther than what I have named yet for many ages there was nothing like to the present practice of the Church of Rome Neither doth it beseem us in such cases to be governed by any other authority than what is Divine Now we certainly know there is not one place of Scripture either in the Old Testament or the New where we have any command given us to offer up prayers for the dead nor any promise made that if we do so it shall any thing avail or help them Our Lord has taught us nothing of this in his most comprehensive form Nor do we find one example of it recorded in all the Bible How dare we then in so weighty a matter make such addresses to God when we have no manner of encouragement or allowance so to do wherefore for this very reason amongst others a man cannot lawfully joyn with the Romish Church in her prayers L. Since there is nothing from Scripture or the best antiquity to justifie this practice what is it that Papists most relye upon in this case T. Even upon pretended revelations and a company of ridiculous Monkish stories of Souls appearing after their decease begging help from their friends that they might be delivered out of the pains of Purgatory But whatever tales they tell in their fabulous Legends we that read the holy Scriptures can find nothing there of any such place or pains The wicked go into ever lasting punishment and the righteous into life eternal but not a word said of a Purgatory for either of these or of a middle state for some middle sort of men that are neither to be ranked amongst the wicked nor the righteous L. But is there not a middle state for souls commonly acknowledged by Protestant Divines T. This much I think they generally acknowledg that the souls of good men being separate from the body are not suddenly advanced to the utmost height of happiness nor will be till the Resurrection and great Judgment-day neither it 's
articles of Faith so that no Church on Earth has any power to coin and impose new ones not revealed in the Scripture which I say acquaints us with all things needful to Salvation And this I am sure is plainly enough taught in the Scripture it self 2 Tim. 3. 15 16 17. The Holy Scriptures they then enjoy'd viz. the Writings of the Old-Testament are said to be able to make him wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Iesus being profitabâ—e to all things necessary thereto as you may there find it fully exprest So Joh. 20. 31. These things are written that you might believe that Iesus is Christ the Son of God and that believing you might have life through his name So that if we believe in Jesus Christ according to all that is written of him in the Gospel this Faith if it produce Obedience will certainly procure everlasting Life And indeed our own reason may well tell us that since the very design of the Holy Scripture is to reveal to us the whole Will of God in order to our Eternal happiness surely there is revealed in them all that is necessary to this end Can we imagine that those Holy Men who committed to Writing the Doctrine of our Blessed Saviour with an account of his Life and Death his Resurrection and Ascension c. that they would omit any thing which was necessary for us to know and believe in order to our Salvation when they wrote these things purposely that we might be saved Especially if we consider that they have given us a very large account of things much more than was of absolute necessity And in such abundance would they leave out things more necessary than those they have Recorded The necessary Articles of Faith are comprized in a little room and have generally been thought to be comprehended in the Apostles Creed This was the judgement of the Primitive Fathers and many Learned men of the Church of Rome have acknowledged as much Now the Articles of this Creed I hope are all contained in the Holy Scripture being there both largely exprest and frequently inculcated So that the ground-work of the Reformation remains firm and unshaken viz. that the Holy Scriptures contain all things necessary to Salvation and therefore those new Articles which the Roman Church hath invented besides yea contrary to these Scriptures ought by no means to be admitted L. The Doctrine of our Church concerning the Sufficiency of Holy Scripture seems very plain and the inference you make from it clear and natural But the Sixth Argument will give you occasion to discourse further on this Subject For my Author says it will be for confirmation of his former Proposition and thus it runs We would fain have Luther Calvin and other Sectaries shew where they find written that the Gospel according to St. Matthew is Holy Scripture rather than the Gospel of Nicodemus which seeing they cannot do and yet they believe too the Gospel of St. Matthew as to Holy Scripture they must needs confess that they believe some things which are not contain'd in Scripture T. His former Argument truly stands in much need of confirmation but is like to receive little from this which he brings to strengthen and enforce it Since if we grant him the whole of it I cannot see that it will do any service to his cause or any prejudice to ours For who ever denied but that we believe some yea many things which are not contain'd in Holy Scripture We believe there is such a Country as France and such a City in it as Paris though there be nothing of them in Scripture Or which is nearer to our purpose we believe there was such a Man in the World as Iulius Casar and that the Book which goes under his name called Casars Commentaries was indeed written by him This we believe on account of the current Tradition and constant opinion of the World from his time down to this present Age there being no ground to doubt of the truth of it since all circumstances concurr to render it credible Even thus to come to the Case in hand we believe the Gospel according to St. Matthew and the other Sacred Books to be Written by those persons whose names they bear in the Title as Authors of them because this hath been the constant judgement of the whole Church of God from the very Age wherein these Books were Written to this present time And on the other hand we have good reason to reject a Book pretended to be written by Nicodemus because none such was admitted by the Primitive Church which must needs have known of it if any such Book there had been For this reason it was never own'd as Canonical by the Catholick Church in any Age since nor therefore do we now receive it as such Where now I beseech you lies the strength of this his mighty Argument L. I confess I am so far from discerning the strength of it that I do not well understand what he aims at by it T. I 'le tell you then in a few words He would by his way of arguing force us to acknowledge that Holy Scripture does not contain all things necessary to Salvation but that there are some Traditions of the Church to be received with equal reverence and esteem as particularly that such and such Books are Canonical Scripture others not and that it is on account of the authority of the Church of Rome that these Traditions are to be received and therefore lastly they hence infer that all other Traditions which their Church proposes to us are by the same reason to be received without doubting or disputing This is their common way of arguing and this Author here and in other places insinuates the same But now to shew further how little of force or solid reason there is in this smooth and subtle talk pray consider with me seriously two or three things which I shall suggest to you L. I promise you my most diligent attention T. 1 Then we must ever carefully distinguish betwixt the tradition or delivery of the holy Scripture it self from one generation to another and those other traditions whether Doctrines or customes beside the holy Scripture which yet are by the Roman Church made of equal authority with it the former we own but not the latter For we most readily grant that there hath been a tradition of the holy Scripture as that which was written by such and such men inspired by the Holy Ghost from one age to another ever since the time of its first writing and so hath it been brought down to us in these days And those Books which the Primitive Church embraced as thus Sacred and Canonical and so delivered them to succeeding ages these do we embrace with all reverence and submission as the rule both of faith and manners containing the whole will of God in order to our salvation But then for this very reason do we utterly deny
that there are any other traditions of equal necessity to salvation which are not contain'd in these holy Scriptures 2 Note well that though the Church of God hath been a most faithful preserver of these holy Scriptures and hath carefully transmitted them from one generation to another yet it is not the Church which gives authority to the Scriptures as if she by any power in her could make that to be the word of God which is not so or unmake that which is indeed so No but the Church received for the word of God that which was delivered by holy men inspired by the Holy Ghost who gave full evidence of this their inspiration both by the nature of that Doctrine which they delivered and by the mighty miracles which God enabled them to work for the attesting the truth of this Doctrine both preached and written Now the Church which was in being in the first ages when these holy men committed their Doctrine to writing was a most competent witness of their writing those Books which go under their names and accordingly received them as the Sacred writings of such persons divinely inspired and so convey'd them to the next generation Thus the Iewish Church received the Books of Moses and the Prophets and thus the Primitive Christian Church received the writings of the Evangelists and the Apostles as also the Books of the Old Testament both upon the tradition of the Iewish Church and also upon the authority of our Blessed Saviour who own'd and approved of the same And thus the Books both of the Old Testament and the New have ever since by the good Providence of God been preserved in the Christian Church and handed down from one generation to another and so shall be we need not question to the end of the world And this same tradition of the Church whereby these holy Books are distinguished from all others and carefully delivered by the former age to the next following this we give all just regard to and do freely grant that this is of singular use for our information what Books belong to the Canon of Scripture what not and by this tradition we learn that this Book was written by this man under whose name it goes and another by that as for instance this by St. Matthew that by St. Mark c. But whilst the Church thus bears testimony to the Scripture to which testimony we give all due regard she does not I say give authority to it For there is a vast difference betwixt these two It 's the Kings hand and seal which gives authority to a writing containing suppose a grant of this or that priviledg but some credible persons his Secretaries or others who were witnesses to his signing or sealing of that writing may give testimony to it and so procure it to be own'd as authentick Thus the holy Scriptures which are recommended to us by the testimony of the Church derive their authority from God only who hath set to his seal that they are true as I have said both by the miracles that were wrought to confirm the Doctrine contained in them by the holiness of that Doctrine and many other circumstances relating thereto 3 Yet again take notice when I say we give such regard to the testimony of the Church I do not hereby mean the Roman Church as distinct from all others no by no means but the truly Catholick even the whole Christian Church whether of the East or West the North or South For this hath been the constant tradition of the whole Church in all ages ever since the Apostles that these Books were written by men divinely inspired and were given to be the rule of our faith and manners If some doubt was for a while made concerning a Book or two yet when these doubts were removed they were received into the Canon with the rest And this hath been the opinion not only of the Catholick Church but of most Hereticks and Schisinaticks also whose testimony here may be of great force whilst they could not but own the authority of Scripture even though they were confuted by it Yea to this I may add the acknowledgment of Heathens themselves or of Iews who lived in those times that the Books which go under the names of St. Matthew St. Paul c. were indeed written by them Thus we have a general current tradition not only of the Roman but of all other Churches in the world that such and such Books belong to the Canon of Scripture and this is commonly granted by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves And even Heathens and Infidels who wrote against the Christian Religion have own'd these Books to be written by those persons whose names they bear who were eminent in that age for the propagating of our holy Religion So that we have a much more famous and uncontroulable tradition for it than that the Books which are said to be written by Tully Virgil c. are indeed their works which I think no body makes any doubt of Lastly from what hath been said you may infer that though we give just regard to this current tradition of the Universal Church by which these holy Books are convey'd to us as Canonical Scripture yet it does not in the least follow that we are therefore obliged to embrace all those Doctrines and practices of the Roman Church which she would impose upon us under the venerable name of Traditions of the Catholick Church whilst they are for the most part only the private opinions and usages of their own Church many of them of very late date and expresly contrary to the judgment and practice of the Christian Church in the first and purest ages of it as well as to the holy Scripture it self So that there is no more reason for our embracing these traditions of the Romish Church than there was for our Saviour and his Apostles to receive all the traditions of the Iewish Church by many of which they had made void the Commandments of God After all then Tradition rightly understood makes nothing against but apparently for us For if there be any other Tradition as universal as this of the Books of Holy Scripture our Church readily embraces it as before has been exprest And we will own that the summ of our Faith is brought down by Tradition viz. in the very form of baptizing in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost and more largely in the Apostles Creed wherein this form is explain'd We grant also that at first the Christian Faith was thus planted by the Preaching of the Gospel before the Books of the New Testament were written But now this our Faith is most plainly and fully contained in these Sacred Books whereas the additional Doctrines of the Romish Church are no more brought down by Universal Tradition than they are contain'd in the Holy Scripture which we assert to be the only sure and perfect rule of Faith and manners and upon all accounts much