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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A18003	A discourse, concerning two diuine positions The first [ef]fectually concluding, that the soules of the faithfull fathers, deceased before Christ, went immediately to heauen. The second sufficientlye setting foorth vnto vs Christians, what we are to conceiue, touching the descension of our Sauiour Christ into hell: publiquely disputed at a commencement in Cambridge, anno Domini 1552. Purposely written at the first by way of a confutation, against a booke of Richard Smith of Oxford, D. of Diuinity, entitled a Refutation, imprinted 1562, & published against Iohn Caluin, & C. Carlile: the title wherof appeareth in ye 17. page. And now first published by the said Christopher Carlile, 1582.	Carlile, Christopher, d. 1588?	1582 (1582)	STC 4654; ESTC S107537	141,619	356

A DISCOVRSE Concerning two diuine Positions The first ●●fectually concluding that the soules of the faithfull fathers deceased before Christ went immediately to heauen The second sufficientlye setting foorth vnto vs Christians what we are to conceiue touching the descension of our Sauiour Christ into Hell Publiquely disputed at a Commencement in Cambridge Anno Domini 1552. Purposely written at the first by way of a confutation against a Booke of Richard Smith of Oxford D. of Diuinity entituled a Refutation imprinted 1562 published against Iohn Caluin C. Carlie the title wherof appeareth in y e 17. page And now first published by the said Christopher Carlile 1582. Si quid hallucinor hallucinamur enim omnes Anglicae E●…clesiae cui me totum dedo esto iudicium ¶ Imprinted at London by Roger Ward dwelling by Holborne conduit at the signe of the Talbot ANNO 1582. TO THE RIGHT HONORABLE HENRY EARLE OF Huntington L. Hastinges Hungerford Botreux Molins and Moyles knight of the moste noble order of the garter Lord president of her Maiesties Counsell established in the North partes Christopher Carlil wisheth eternall felicitie Idolatry and Blasphemie are to be corrected by the ciuill Magistrate and in like maner the corruption of maners as Moses decreed by the voyce of Iehoua and setteth downe Godly Lawes to that effect Errors in doctrine are to be reformed by examination the authours thereof reduced by perswasion conuinced by the worde and reconciled by exhortation and mutuall cōference Wherein we ought to folowe the example of the high magistrate Iehoua who neither condemned Adam Caua nor Cayne before he called them examined them and heard them Magistrates therefore must examine by Lawes direct by iudgement and conclude by conscience guided by the worde of God Let vs set before our eyes the most auncient and godly men as well in doctrine as in gouernement Adam and Seth by learning or rather by inspiratiō which tendeth to the same ende made two Pillers wherein they wrote a double subuersion of the worlde the one by Water the other by fier They instructed their posterity and gouerned them with the lawe and comfortable Gospel Enoch wrote books as wee may read in the epistle of Iude Noac preached the Worde and therefore called the eight preacher of righteousnes whose Sermons are plentifully described by Sybilla Erythraea Abraham did the like Moses Iethro and such other Princes executed both the functions instructed with the worde and reformed by lawes So Dauid Salomon and Iosias blessed the people instruc ted the people and therefore are they called Cohenim because they both taught and gouerned and by the same name were the sonnes of Dauid tearmed in that respect Iosaphat sent out his nobility to preach These examples with many others of like dignity honour and authority haue emboldened me also at this time to number your ●… as one among them with such modestie as becōmeth a loyall Christiāto craue your honorable patrocinie in subuerting the arrogant attempts im pudēt assaults of the Antichristians whose wisdom in examining whose iudgment in discerning whose magnanimitie in defending the truth I haue alwaies had as wel is knowē in singular admiratiō Iehoua the Eternall originall cause of all thinges indiuisible in substance diuisible in properties encrease your ho nours zeale in publishing the scriptures to the subuersion of Antichristianisme authoritie in defendinge the truth alacritie in encoraging others to search the fountaines and perseuerance in amplifiyng the kingdome of Christ. At London the 13. of May 1582. Your Honours at commaundement Christopher Carlil To the Reader WHAT Hell is when it began where it is and whether Christ descended or ascended thither and what hee should do there are questions no lesse doubtful then necessary doutfull for that the Doctors are variable necessarye to be knowne for auoiding of fables and pernicious heresies These matters were disputed in Cambridge at the commencement in the yeare of Christ. 1552. Doctor Perne then Uicechauncelor began thus against the defendent All the Scriptures all the Doctors and generall Councels are contrary to your assertion Not so saith the defendent for the Scriptures are all with me●… as for your Doctors and Councels when you alleadge them they shall be aunswered Then the Doctor replyed saying how aunswere you this texte Thou shalt not leaue my soule in hell Then said the defendent it is not so in y ● Hebrue but thus Thou wilt not forsak●…●…r leaue my body in the graue Then stoode vp M. Ghest late Bishop of Sarisbury put forth this Enthimema Christ ascended into ●…eauen Ergo he descended into hell It is saith the defendent as absurd an Argument as this Christ ascended to Hierusalem Ergo he des●…ended to Iericho Doctor Younge mine old ac●…aintaunce in Philosophy and a learned ma●… reasoned thus Thou shalt not leaue my soule in h●…ll for it is saith he in Greeke eis hadou The defendant aunswered that he should haue added according to the propertie of the Greeke phrase eis oicon hadou meaning therby the Graue which is called in Iob y ● house of death Well saith he you lea●…e too much to the Rabbines and with those wordes made an ende Sir Iohn Cheeke a man moste experte in all kind of artes and tongues and of most exquisite iudgment prosecuted D. Young his Argument more at large repeating the 24. verse of the 2. of the Actes after the old Latine translation on this sorte Whom God hath raised loosing the sorrowes of hell The defendant denied y ● Translation and recited the Greeke wordes translated them truly according to the mind of Peter on this manner Whome God hath raised loosing the sorrowes of death To that sir Iohn Cheeke aunswered thus he did not loose the sorrowes of Death but the sorrowes of Hel. Not so saith the defendaunt for it is in Greeke Death not Hel. Then called Sir Iohn Cheeke for a Greeke Testament and founde it euen so as the defendaunt had aduouched Then said sir Iohn Cheeke the Disputation is at an ende vnlesse you will graunt for disputation sake y ● Infernus is taken in this place for the Graue otherwise I haue no scope to reason contente saith the defendant for Sheol signifieth y e graue Because saith Sir Iohn Cheeke that you reason after the order of Socrates I will reason with you Socraticallye and thus hee began Are there any sorrowes in the graue the defendant aunswered that there were sorrowes in y ● Graue by Prosopopoia so reasoneth Paule saying y ● euery creature desireth his renouatiō thus he writeth For the earnest expectation of the creature abideth looking when the sonnes of God shall appeare because the creature is subiect to vanity not willing but for him which hath subdued the same in hope for the creature it selfe shall be made free frō the

the faithfull is the high way to felicitye and faith is the saluation of our soules 1. Pet. 1. 9. The assumptiō is prooued by Iosephus who faith that Adam confessed his fault and craued pardon for his offence Moreouer Adam did not only confesse his fault but also repented and beleeued in the seede promised And as he and Caua were the first that offended so were they the first that receiued grace and ascended into heauen excepte Abell and Enoch Which is prooued by Salomon or rather by Philo in these wordes Wisdome saythe hée whiche is the sonne of god preserued the first father of all mankind from his offense Is not be saued that is deliuered from his offence from sin from errour but in hell there is no saluation then was h●… in heauen by the same faythe tha●… we haue His faith made Christes death as present to him as though it had béen done in déede for faithe apprehendeth thinges absent and thinges whiche are not subiect to our senses consider Heb. 11. 1. And therfore Christ is killed to the faith of the elect euen from the beginninge of the world And although Castalio and Beza resolueth the latter parte of this 8. vers on this sort whose names are not written from the creation of the world in the booke of life of y e lambe which is killed Nonwithstanding they must nedes conclude that the names of the faithfull are and were written in the booke of life in the ●…iuely booke of the lambe which is heauen for so Christ define the it ●…aynge vnto his disciples Do not glory because that yow haue subdu●…d spirits but because that your ●…ames are written in heauen Is it ●…ny absurdity to place the soules where their names are written Are their names holier then their soules wher good mens names are writtē thither ascend their soules but in heauen are good mens names written then there must nedes be their soules To what vse were it to haue my name written in heauen if my soule shall haue no fruition of heauenly ioyes no contemplation no solace no felicity The disciples were predestinated to this felicity and therfore receiued presently when their tabernacle was dissolued when their soules departed out of the body For they must nedes reape one fruite enioye one felicity whose fayth is all one whose sacraments in effect are all one for bothe haue eaten one spiritual bread dronke one spiritual drink for they dronk of the spirituall rocke whiche is Christ. The red sea expresseth our baptisme The cloude the grace of the holy ghost Moses the highe priest Christ the Israelites the Christians the rocke Christ. Can he come in hel who is forknowne of god predestinated from euerlastinge called of purpose iustified by faithe and consequently glorifyed Ys the forknowledge of god doubtfull Is his predestination mutable Is his calling of purpose vncertain Or our iustificatiō variable Or our glorificatiō ī doubt Adam was gloryfied in y ● presence of god alwayes alwayes elected alwayes in sure hope and in an infallible expectatiō of heauenly felicity To glorify is as y ● papistes terme it to canonise to make saintes to geue felicity to introduce a man into y e incōprehensible ioyes of heauen And to signify a certaintye an infallible truth in electīng calling iustifying glorifyinge he vseth the preterperfect tense as though it were done already and so it is in déed with god shal we measure y e author of time with time or the geeuer of felicity by mans phātasie or the certentie of saluation by the doubtfull iustisiynge of the Papist If Adam were foreknowen fore elected fore appoynted and consequently called glorified how could he come in hel Is there any iustification in Hell any fayth any hope of better lyfe any saluation any remission of sinnes any inuocation of the name of God anye glorificacion anye felicitie Hell is withoute Hope Geenna withoute grace Satan withoute Saluation Tophet without ioye the worme of conscience without solace gnashing of teeth without gladnes Let vs speake of Habel It is saide that Habel beinge dead did speake So is it saide of the Soules of the faithefull in the Reuelacion he is saide to speake whiche lyueth then Habel and all the faithfull do liue because they speake also because that God is the God of the lyuinge and not of the dead Moreouer by this worde speakinge is painted forth his felicitie which hee hath en ioyed from his martirdome hitherto for Christe saith that who so euer shall lose his lyfe in this world for Gods cause and religion as hee did shal fynde it agayn in the next but if he should goe to Hel after his death as our romishe Catholickes doo teache and affirme it were an euill exchaunge and the death wil lingly receiued for his cause or religion very slenderly recompensed but Habel was found iuste and is so called both of Christe and of S. Paul There is none iuste but hee that beleeueth for as S. Paul saith whatsoeuer is not done of faith is synne the iust man lyueth by faith Habel was iust therfore he lyued by his fayth There is in this sentence of Habel thrée thinges to be noted faithe ●…ustice and immortall life Iustice is the frée gift mercy and goodnes of god geuen vnto man by fayth fayth bringeth immortality or euer lasting felicity for the perfection of faythe is felicity faythe endeth where immortality beginneth then hath faith done his part when yt hathe obtayned y e whiche it trusted vpon and then ceaseth hope when yt enioyeth that which yt hoped for then remayneth charity w e S. Paul sayth is the gretest of the thre because it contineweth florisheth for euer among y e saītes Herin doth Ireneus erre affirmīg that faythe and hope remaine after this lyfe For he supposeth that all mens soules from the beginning of the world are kept in a secret place abiding or wayting for y e last day and therefore to beleue and hope stil. But Salomō or rather Philo saythe in the 4. chapter of the booke of wisdome The iuste thoughe they dye before their tyme or beinge younge yet they are in reste Augustine calleth Habel a virgin a priest a iust man and a marti●… hee hath deserued sayeth hee the crown of martyrdome this crown is felicitie vnto the whiche wee are bounde to haste vnto If there bee a churche in heauen as wee must needes confesse there is where Christe is being the head then is it an iniquity to denye Habel to be there being the first martyr Bernarde placeth him in heauen because hee receyued deathe pacientlye by his brother Cayne who persecuted hym for hys vertues sake for Abraham Esra an auncient Hebrue Doctor affirmeth that Cayne kylled Habell because hea sayde that vyce shoulde bee punished and Uertue rewarded

Ireneus hath set out an absolute ●…orme of our faythe in like manner as the other haue done and this either hee forgotte for lacke of memory or neclected it as an absur●…ity or dispy●…ed it as a fable or ab ●…orred it as a thing contrary to our Faythe whiche neuer placed anye faithfull mans Soule in hell 9. Neither is this patch in Tertulian where there is a perfect Rule of our Faythe published 10. Neither in another larg Crede in y ● said Tertul. against Praxea 11. Neither in Origene who hathe a long discourse of the belyef 12. Neither in Greg●… Neocesariēsi which Ruffinus dothe interprete in ●…ib 7. cap. 25 13. Neither in Ciprian though ther 〈◊〉 a Creede ascribed to him in S. Hieromes workes y e same assigned to Rufine whiche hathe this addition notwithstanding hée saythe y ● it signifiothe no more but that he●… was deade buryed For it is a Phrase amonge the Gréekes an●… sometymes among the Latins 〈◊〉 in Cic. off 1. Dilapsa arma ceciderū●… y ● a Participle is ioyned w t aver●… of the same signification as in thi●… place 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Buried 〈◊〉 descended whiche two wordes a●… all one and signify onely his B●… ryall And so is descended vsed in Ge●… 44. where Iacob is sayd to desce●… into Sheol meaning that hee w●… layd in his Graue 14. Neither in y t Councel of Ni●… Socrat. lib. 1. c. 8 15 Neither in Eusebius Cesariēs●… Theodoret. 1. cap. 12. 16. Neither in the 3. Crede repe●…ted in y ● Councell of Nice for th●… 3. were there recited 17. Neither in y ● long Créede re●…ted of Athanasius in an Epistle Epictitus Byshop of Corinth 18. Neither in the Créede y ● Atha●…asius hath in his Epistle of the Si●…odes holdē at Arimini Selencia 19. Neither in Athanasius in lib. d●…●…aiore fide 20. Neither in y t longe Créede set out by the Byshops of the East Socrat 52. c. 19. Athanasius in epist. A●…imini ad Selencia 21. Neither y ● Crede y ● was made againste the Arrians in y ● Ctttye of Illiria called Sardic●… Hillariu●… in his Booke of Sinodes 22. Neither in y e exposition of Hil. 23. Neither in any of those Créedes which are in Socrat. 2. c. 30. and in Athanasius of the Sinodes of Ari. Seleuc. Hillarius againste the Arrians 24. Neither in a Créede of them of Selenc and Isauria Socra 2. cap. 40. Sezo 4. cap. 22. Epiph. lib. 3. Tom. 1. Ser. 73 25. Neither in another Créede in y e Syn. ●…olden at Arimini 26. Neither in the Synode of Illi●… about the yeare of Christ 370. The odor 4. cap. 8. 27. Neither in the excellent Cre●… of Damasus Byshop of Rome The●… odor 5. cap. 8. 28. Neither in the Crede set out 〈◊〉 Euseb. Socrat. 1. c. 8. 29. Neither in the Crede of Hilla●… set out in his Booke de Symb. 30. Neither in his booke De Fide 31. Neither in that worthy Creede of Basill in Asteticis 32. Neither in y ● singuler Créede of Greg. Nazianzene 33. Neither in the exquisite Créede of Marcus Victorinus in his 1. booke against Arrius 34. Neither in that Substaneiall Crede of Epiph. in Anchorato 35. Neither in Eustatius Byshoppe of Antioche writing vpon Ps. 16. 36. Nether in his booke De Anima 37. Neither in Remigius Byshopp●… of Antissid or writing vpon Ps. 16. 38. Nether in Hypolitus ex lib. d●… ib●…tione ●…alentorum 〈◊〉 And ex epistol●… ad Regin qu●…nd 40. Nether in his oration in Mag●…um canticum Theodoret. 41. Nether vpon the second psalme 42. Nether Ambrose in expos ●…idei ●…heodoret d●…al 2. niconfusus 43. Nether in Theodoret in his di●…og ●…mpatibus Where the Crede o●… Nice is expounded 44. Nether is it in y e coūcell holden ●…t Alexandria Niceph. 14. c. 28. 45. Nether is it in the Crede of the ●…st councell holden at Toledo in ●…he yeare of Christ 420. 46. Nether in the Crede of the former councell holden at Ephesus in ●…he yeare of Christ. 532. 47. Nether in the Crede of the coū●…ell of 〈◊〉 So●…ra 2. c. 34. 48. Nether is it in the councell of Constantmople against Eutiches about the yeare of Christ. 449. 49. Nether in the beleyfe of Fla●…imus set out in the said councell 50. Nether in the Crede of y ● Synode of Chalcedon repeated in Zona●… 51. Nether in the crede of the 〈◊〉 thers in Ciril lib. 1. ad Regi 52. Nether in the Crede of Tho●… dorus in the. 5. Councell holden 〈◊〉 Constantinople After Christ. 〈◊〉 53. Nether in the confession of th●… faith whiche was aduouched in 〈◊〉 Councell at Toledo the thirde 〈◊〉 the yeare of Christ. 545. 54. Nether in that landable Cred●… published by Gregory the first 〈◊〉 of that name 55. Nether is it in that Epistle th●… Liberius Bishopp of Rome wro●… to Athanasius confessing his fayth and beleyfe 56. Nether in his absolute confessi●… of his faith whiche is published 〈◊〉 the boke of Councells 57. Nether is it in the Crede of Spi●… ridion Niceph. 8. c. 15. 58. Nether in that famous confessi●… on of the faith which the Bishopp of the East gaue vp to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Emperoure Niceph. 9. 〈◊〉 ●…ib 9. c. 〈◊〉 5 6. Nether in the Crede of Acatius y e time of Constantius seera 2. c. 40 ●… 61. Nether in the duble confessiō Marcus Arethusus before the ●…mperoure Constantius at S●…rmy 〈◊〉 the yeare of Christ. 354. Socra 2. c. ●…0 37. 62. 63. Nether in the two or three Credes in the. 4. councell holden at Tolledo ●…4 Nether in the Crede in the first councell at Toledo 65. Nether in Carolus Magnus his Crede in his boke de Imag. c. 1. 66. Nether in the Crede of Ephesus in the yeare of Christ. 435. I coulde repeate a greate nomber of moe Credes and will hereafter if these be not sufficient Smyth I say as I said before it is ynoughe that it is in the Crede made by the Apostells Carlil I haue proued y e it was not made by y e Apostels If it had bene made by them it foloweth not that this addition was made by thē for it was certaine hundreth year●… after added as I shall declar●… her●… after The Crede saith that he de●… cended into hell who suffered vn●… der Pontius Pilate who was cruci●… fied dead and buried but that wa●… the body of Christ ergo th●… 〈◊〉 sendeth Christes body to hell Bu●… the body descended no further the●… to the Graue and rose againe th●… third daye That whiche went to hel saith the Crede rose again but the body rose againe Ergo the body went into hell which is an absurdity to affirme That which was buried descended iuto hell saith the Crede the soule was not buried therefore it descended not into hell That that went to hell saithe the Crede rose the thirde day from