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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A08891	The fal of Babel By the confusion of tongues directly proving against the Papists of this, and former ages; that a view of their writings, and bookes being taken; cannot be discerned by any man living, what they would say, or how be vnderstoode, in the question of the sacrifice of the masse, the reall presence or transubstantiation, but in explaning their mindes they fall vpon such termes, as the Protestants vse and allow. Further in the question of the Popes supremacy is shevved, how they abuse an authority of the auncient father St. Cyprian, a canon of the I Niceene counsell, and the ecclesiastical historie of Socrates, and Sozomen. And lastly is set downe a briefe of the sucession of Popes in the sea of Rome for these 1600 yeeres togither; ... By Iohn Panke.	Panke, John.	1608 (1608)	STC 19171; ESTC S102341	167,339	204

669. for the priuate masse fol. 675. for an halfe communion Dureus resp Whitak rat 6. fol. 301. Ex Euseb eccles hist lib. 6. c. 44 in Greeke 36. in Latine and 43. in English Eckius enchir loc comm c. 15 fol. 156. If the Communion that is a companie receiueing together bee in that respect better then the priuate masse as M Harding himselfe saith where the Priest receaueth all the people gazing on and receaueing nothing which is the point which M Iewell blamed and the priuate masse be but a matter of small waight and a fact the Priests negligence causing the peoples slacknesse For shame leaue of to write in defence of it as also to make that a true Communion spiritual receauing whē the People stand by receaue nothing as both D. Harding M. Dormā doe Corporally the Preist spiritually the people saith he Then say I the people that receiue spiritually receiue the better for to receiue the flesh and bloud of Christ corporally they assigne to the wicked and reprobate such as Iudas spiritually they assigne only to the elect and godly But how are both these articles of private masse and halfe communion proued against B. Iuell and vs by one example of what a silly boy did giue to a sicke mā at his house in a case of necessity The boy because the Priest was sicke brought from him a little of the sacrament and gaue it the old man Do not these men lacke the practise of the Church for their warrant that wil obtrude such examples The story is to be read in Eusebius in Greeke Latine and English and therfore there can be no mystery in it except men desire to be abused What saith Eckius touching praier vnto Saints departed which doctrine is of great moment in the church of Rome Explicitè non est praecepta sanctorum invocatio in sacris literis The invocation of Saints departed is not expressed in the holy scriptures This inuocatiō of Saints cannot be proued net her by the old Testamēt nor by the newe Not in the old Testament saith he for the Iews were prone to Idololatry and vnder the Gospel it was not commanded least the Gētiles that were converted and beleeued should thinke they should bee brought againe to the worship of Earthly Gods Further saith he if the Apostles Evangelists had taught the Saints had bin to haue bin worshipped it would haue argued great arrogancy in thē as if they had sought renowne after death therfore the Apostles would not by the expresse scripture teach the calling vpon Saints Thus far Eckius Sessio 25. de inuocat The counsel of Trent doth not foūd it in the scriptures but bringeth it in by the window an other way by custome consent of Fathers which they do but pretend neither because they would not let go al their hold at once Saunders reakoneth this amongst other things to be the words of God De visib monarc l. 1. fol 12 Hoker Ecclespoll 1. par 13. The benefit of hauing diuines lawes written not his word written but his worde vnwritten If we in this age of the world be to trust to an vnwritten word I demaund to whom that was deliuered to be kept and preserued In the first age of the world as God gaue Laws to our Fathers without writing so hee gaue them memories which serued in steede of books the defects of that kinde of teaching being knowne vnto him he relieued it by often iterating of one thing by putting thē in minde of onething often After this grew the vse of writing as meanes more durable to preserue the laws of God from oblivion and corruption as the liues of men grew the more to be shortned therfore is Moses said to write al the words of God and vnto the Evangelist S. Iohn expresse Charge is giuen Scribe Exod. 24 4. Apoc. 1.11 14.13 Ioh. 20.30.31 write these things Againe Many other signes also did Iesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this booke but these things are written that yee might beleeue that Iesus is that Christ that Son of God So that if now after so much writing the ceasing of God to speake to the worlde but by writing we shal divert from his written worde to his vnwritten it wil be to turne the truth of God into a lie and to follow fables in steed of truth If this part of the doctrine of the Church of Rome in praying to Saints be without al warrāt of holy scripture as Eckius and Saunders do allow how much to blame are they Dureus Conf. Whi rat 1. f. 44 Cope dial 3. fol. 332. to the same purpose who would drawe a prescript rule from Christs owne words on the crosse when he cried Eli Eli My God my God why hast thou forsaken me saying that it was familiar to the faithful Iews to pray vnto Saints because they thought that Christ had called on Elias Is it not a miserable glosse that eateth out the bowels of the text If it were an vsual thing with the Iews to pray vnto Saints how said Eckius that the Iewes had it not in vse because they were prone to idololatry and to whom should they pray The fathers of the old testament saith he also were in Limbo in hel The Iews that said Christ called on Elias did deride mocke him so do the Papists abuse vs Matth. 27.47 that alleadge the holy scriptures to such purposes But into how many shapes wil they turne this one parcel of scripture and make it serue more waies thā one Saunders alleadgeth it for the service in an vnknowne tongue because the Iews seemed to mistake Christ De visib mon. l. 7. fo 679. for the seruice in an vnknowne tongue How neere that speech of Christ on the crosse commeth either in favour of praying to Saints or to the service in an vnknown tongue I wil not sticke even now to make themselues iudges The Doctrine of pardons hath brought no smal treasure to the church of Rome yet Alphonsus Alphons a Castro l. 8. verb. indulg Pardōs haue no ground either in antiquity or in the scriptures Polid. Virg. de invent rerum li. 8. c. 1. f. 614. reverēceth it but for new Against the error of denying pardons saith he I wil contend in few words because amongst al the things whereof we dispute in this work there is none that the holy scriptures haue lesse mentioned then pardons and wherof the ancient writers haue lesse spoken This report of Alphonsus doth Polidore Virgill confirme out of Fisher who was bishop of Rochester in these words No Divine doth at al doubt saith he whether there be purgatory but yet among the ancient fathers there is no mention at al of it or very seldome yea euen the Greekes to this day beleeue it not for so long as there was no care for purgatory nemo quaesivit indulgentias no

the text The Doctors that defēd thē The manner of handling them or quoting of places not to be found to vse any vaine and foolish shifts in answere such as any may perceaue to bee feeble weake to deliuer their mindes so doubtfully that an English man in the English tongue shal not vnderstand vvhat they meane to be so contrarie and opposite on to an other and many times each frō himselfe to dispute for that which they confesse is not so ancient nor so good as the contrary It is an olde saying a rich man need not bee a theife and a good cause at their handes cannot bee lost for lack of pleading only that which wanteth is the truth of the cause they haue bin fashiōing of it these many yeares euer anon there comme some experter masters than formerly vvith some fresher vernish but noe better prose some tast of this dealing I gaue the readers be-but a more larger euidence and veiw shal follow after in diuers of the points mentioned that all the vvorld shal see confesse that the popish religion at this day taught and professed by the verie confused handling of it is nothinge lesse then accient catholike and true which shal be so faithfully collected that they shal not be denied to be their owne and so plaine for vnderstanding Peruium cunctis iter Sence in Oct. art 2. that although you conc●aue little or nothing of the questions thēselues yet you shall perceaue the weaknesse of their side by the manner of laying downe their proofes and defences Tub. When I shal see that performed substātially which you haue here promised confidently I wil surly stay my hād from subscribing my harte from consenting to anie such doctrine as shal stand vpon such proofes Rom. By the grace of God I wil not faile to shew it you you shal not take any thing vpon report you shall see and read their owne bookes and discourses themselues and since now you are the man vnto vvhose conscience I appeale for your consent to our side let me shew you the dutie of a reader in a case of controuersie betweene two noe otherwise then D. Harding in his Reioynder against B. Iuell touching them both doth lay it down to you and me and al men else To the reader The dutie of a reader Consider I require thee saith he what is thy duty Remember thou be not partiall towards either of our persons Let all affection be laide aside Let your conscience be the rule of both loue hatred Let neither hope nor feare haue place in your hart to win or loose by either of our fortunes yea if you can so conceaue let our bookes represent vnto thee not Iuell Harding but two men Iohn Thomas departed this worlde to noe man liuing knowen to haue liued And when you haue left of all affection touching our persons then study to discharge thy minde of all blind parciality towards both our doctrines abandoning all humane likings and carnall phantasies with a single eie simple hart behold imbrace what is good true only for loue of God and for the truthes sake Being thus desposed commend your selfe vnto God with praier beseeching him to lighten your vnderstanding by his holie spirit to lead you vnto the truth This done with an humble hart read both our Treatises and iudg yet this much I saie in case of necessitie not to all in generall but to certaine such as by other meanes will not bee induced to consider of the truth The reply is that which B. Iuell wrot against him for otherwise I acknowledge that both the REPLY and all other hereticall bookes by order of the Church without speciall licence bee vnlawfull to be read and are vtter he forbidden to bee read or kept vnder paine of excōmunicatiō Remember I saie the part of a iudge is to iudge as the Lawyers speake secundum allegata probata that is to saie as things be alleadged proued Beware everie thing is not proued for which authorities bee alleadged Nota bene neither is all made good which by probable arguments seemeth to be concluded Allegations must be true plaine simple neither weakned by taking awaie nor strengthened by putting to of wordes nor wrested from the sence they beare in the writer else they bewraie the feeblenesse of the cause for proofe whereof they be alleadged also the great vntruth of thē that for furtherance of their purpose abuseth them if they haue corrupted their witnesses or brought in false witnesses if they haue vntruly reported their Doctors shamfully falsified their sayings thē ought you to giue sentence against them then is their honestie stained then is their credit defaced and then is their challenge quiet dashed Thus farr D. Harding Mat. 27.24 And Pilate tooke water and washed his handes before the multitude saying I am innocent of the bloud of this iust man euen so cleare is M. Hardinge and his fellowes frō misreporting the Doctors or falsifying their sayings or in not committing any thing wherof they would seeme to be most free as anon shal appeare Tub. Me thinketh by these words of D. Harding by your request made before vnto me that both parties on both sides require nothing more then that al their readers should ponder waighe the allegations proofes both of the one side other and then iudge of the truth accordingly but I feare he meaneth nothing less because he saith that both the REPLY al other hereticall books by order of the church without speciall licence bee vnlawfull to bee read or kept By hereticall bookes hee meaneth the protestants writings which inference abridgeth the libertie of reading consequētly of iudging by any indifferent way or meane to come to the knowledge of the truth For the heathen Poet could deliuer a good speech to that purpose by the very light of naturall discourse Qui statuit aliquid parte inauditâ alterâ Aequum licet statuerit haud aquus fuit Senec in Med Act. 2. He that not hearing either part ponounceth his decree Vnrighteous mā accounted is though right his sentence be Rom. I did includ so much in mine owne speech vnto you before but that perhaps you wil sooner approue of your owne obseruation then my collection And to tel you truly which you shal certainty find by conuersing more with thē they doe not suffer the common laitie amongst them to see or read or heare any thinge without speciall licence so much and such parcells as it shal please them But those that they knowe are so stiffe and obstinate that nothing will a waken their vnderstanding perhapps they will giue some small libertie of reading the better to colour their denial to others And this doe they not only touching the vse or reading either of the holy scriptures or of the protestants bookes Hard cont Iuell art 2. fol. 56. In

Christ which is in the sacrament If Bellarmine abridge Caietane of the word spirituallie he leaueth him never an other to expresse his minde by Now to drawe towards an end in this point Trent counsel Caietane Bellarmine Allen. Hardinge Gardiner let vs laie in breefe what wee vnfolded more largly Our Lord and sauiour Iesus Christ God man is truly really substantially contained vnder the forme and shew of bread and wine He is transferred from the hande to the mouth we fasten our teeth into his flesh and from thence he goeth into the stomacke and is mingled with our flesh c. And compare them with these of the same men in the same matter Christ is in the sacrament spiritually the maner of his presence is only spirituall he is eaten after a certaine spirituall manner The flesh of Christ is meate for the spirit not for the body It is a spirituall nourishment By faith we vnderstand he is there Wee see him with the eies of our faith eate him with the teeth of our faith by beleening not by receaning If euer there were a difference betweene the body and soule heauen hel light and darknesse sweete and sower ioye paine fire and water North south whatsoeuer may bee imagined to bee contrarie then is there a repugnancy in those their wordes expressing their meanings in the matter of the sacrament They will haue both true and yet our opinion must bee false and hereticall in vsing the later stile to expresse our meaninges But as wee and they are most opposite in the question so are one sort of their tearmes which they vse against vs vnto an other and such as can neuer verifie the truth of their assertion If they can reconcile all and prone vs heretikes I saie they maie vndertake any thinge yea though it be to the making of a black horse white or a white horse blacke as that cunning Grecian Autolycus did Of whom it is said Ovid. Met. l. 1● Candida de nigris de candentibus atra facere assuenerat Although it hath beene a long time thought that they could doe much y I hope they can make no contradictorie propositions both true where euermore if one bee true the order wil be ineuitably false Tub. I assure my selfe so much as you haue said out of their owne bookes writings wil make anie reasonable mā astonied to thinke with how faire plausible tearmes they wil plead their religion as though there were agreement no where but amongst them disagreemēt everie where saue with them where if your collections quotations stand true sound I see not but they maie haue leaue to goe aside pen a new forme of wordes wherby to expresse their meanning in this point for the old wil not serue them Rom. Yea and a new Gospel too Allen Caietane for Allen Caietane confesseth both against themselues the one that the order of the Euangelists is peruerted and standing as it doth wil not serue their turne The other that there is nothing in the Gospell that doth binde vs to take those wordes in the proper signification as they sound to make the reall and substantiall body of Christ present vnder the shew of bread In explicating of which their opinion you may now call to minde the grossest of the figures which they vse and let passe a many of others Figures vsed by them in the sacramēt in those few words of Christ at his last supper First they saie 1,2 Christ tooke bread he blessed that is he transubstantiateth or changeth it he brake not the bread but the accidents or shew of bread he gaue not the bread but his own bodie 3. How they expound the word This in the sentence This is my body you haue heard before This that is that which is contained vnder these shewes is my bodie 4. 5. Againe where the words lie in the Evangelists Take eate this is my body they haue deuised an hideous figure of figures which is called Hysteron Proteron the Cart before the horse and say it should be This is my dody take eate 6. Christ blessed saie they by saying This is my body although the Euāgelists place it not so in order 7. How manie figures how often are they out in the breaking some saying one thing and some say an other 8. And in the wordes of consecration which and where they should be 9. And of the accidents being there in nothing that is whitnesse and nothing white Roundnesse and nothinge round colour and nothing coloured and an hundred monsters differences else amongst them hath this one monster Transubstantiation begot The antiquity of Transubstantiation But when was the monster himselfe begotten It was holidaie at Rome then he is not so old by 1200. yeares and more as you haue by told made beleeue Our countrie man Tonstall telleth vs it was concluded in the coūsel of Lateran L. 1. fol. 46. de ●…rit corpor sang 3 Opinions touching trāsubstantiation held vnder Innocentius the third Pope of that name Before which time saith he there was 3. opinions concernning that matter some thought that the bodie of Christ was there together with the bread as fire in a peece of flint which waie it seemeth Luther following held the Consubstantiation Others thought that the bread was gon corrupted Others that the substance of bread was changed into the substance of Christs bodie which waie Innocentius followed refusing the other two although no fewer miracles he should say grosse absurdities contrarieties in nature naie more seeme to bee builded vpon the opinion which hee did chuse then one the other which hee refused For before that time it was left free to euerie man to thinke as himselfe liked Now for the antiquitie credit of this Lateran counsell wee may consult with Andradius Defenc. Trid. conc l. 2. f. 427. Genebrard Chro. l. 4. fol. 955. rekoneth in for the 12. generall so doth Bellar. l. 2 c. 5. de conc eccles the late defender of the Tridētine counsell and as great a Doctor in his time as Bellarmine is now and therfore his testimonie may not bee denied In order it was the ninth generall for place it was held in the pallace Lateran in Rome for time it was held in the yeare of our Lord 1215. twelue hundred odd yeares after Christ It was called together saith he rather to amend the ill manners that then raigned then to decree anie matters of faith nether did they much trouble thēselues to expoūd any hard places of scripture or open anie mysteries such good heed was taken to establish so high a point Thus hauing the receipt you maie distill the water I meane hauing these things brought to your hands so plainly you maie learne those two points of wisdome so much spoken of Be sober distrustfull Amicus