we haue care to maintaine and obserue these caueats being remembred first that they prescribe nothing childish or absurd to be done speaker D. B. P. See what a â—…erent opinion this man carrieth of the Church of God gouerned by his holy spirit that it neuerthelesse may prescribe things both childish and absurd But I must pardon him because he speaketh of his owne Synagogue which is no part of the true Church speaker A. W. Hee that obserues what your Romish synagogue hath brought into Gods seruice and remembers that the Church that is men which beare sway in it may fondly erre will acknowledge this caueat most needfull No stage-play is so full of fooleries as your Masse-game speaker W. P. Secondly that they bee not imposed as any parts of Gods worship speaker D. B. P. This is contrary to the conclusion for order and comlinesse to be vsed in Gods worship which the Church can prescribe is some part of the worship speaker A. W. Order and comelinesse are no parts of Gods worship but adiuncts seruing to the better performance thereof as the obseruation of due and fit circumstances giue a grace and furtherance to any action whatsoeuer speaker W. P. Thirdly that they be seuered from superstition or opinion of merit speaker D. B. P. This is needlesse for if it be not absurd which was the first prouiso it is already seneted from superstition speaker A. W. That is absurd which is contrarie to common reason or sense but all things superstitious are not so yea many points of superstition haue so much shew of reason for them that without Gods commandement to the contrarie a wise man might thinke them very fit meanes of Gods worship and meritorious Such was the Gentiles worshipping of Angels supposing they had worshipped none but God such is your worshipping of Angels and he saincts and she saincts now adayes such is your feare of displeasing God if you eate flesh on saincts eauens or in Lent and such like speaker W. P. Lastly that the Church of God be not burdened with the multitude of them And thus much wee hold touching Traditions speaker D. B. P. The fourth touching multitude may passe these be but meere trifles That is of more importance that he tearmeth the decree registred in the 15. of the Actes of the Apostles a Tradition whereas before he defined Traditions to be all doctrine deliuered besides the written word Now the Actes of the Apostles is a parcell of the written word as all the world knovves That then vvhich is of record there cannot be tearmed a Tradition Though the Acts of the Apostles be a part of the written word yet was not the booke written when that decree was first obserued neither doth Master Perkins giue it the name of himselfe but saith it is tearmed a tradition The difference speaker W. P. Papists teach that beside the written worde there be certaine vnwritten traditions which must bee beleeued as profitable and necessarie to saluation And these they say are twofold Apostolicall namely such as were deliuered by the Apostles and not written and Ecclesiasticall which the Church decreeth as occasion is offered Wee hold that the Scriptures are most perfect containing in them all doctrines needfull to saluation whether they concerne faith or manners and therefore we acknowledge no such traditions beside the written worde which shall bee necessarie to saluation so as hee which beleeueth them not cannot be saued speaker D. B. P. Before we come to the Protestants reasons against Traditions obserue that we deuide Traditions into three sorts The first we rearme Diuine because they were deliuered by our blessed Sauiour who is God Thesecond Apostolicall as deliuered by the holy Apostles The third Ecclesiasticall instituted and deliuered by the Gouernors of the Curch after the Apostles daies And of these three kinds of Traditions we make the same account as of the writings of the same Authors to wit we esteeme no lesse of our Sauiours Traditions than of thefoure Gospels or any thing immediatly dictated from the holy Ghost Likewise as much honor and credit doe we giue vnto the Apostles doctrine vnwritten as written For incke and paper brought no new holines nor gaue any force and vertue vnto either Gods or the Apostles words but they were of the same value and credit vttered by word of mouth as if they had been written Here the question is principally of diuine Traditions which we hold to be necessary to saluation to resolue and determine many matters of greater difficulty For we deny not but that some such principall points of our Faith which the simple are bound to beleeue vnder paine of damnation may be gathered out of the holy Scriptures as for example that God is the Creator of the world Christ the Redeemer of the world the Holy Ghost the Sanctifier and other such like Articles of the Creed speaker A. W. Diuine traditions are such as were deliuered by our Sauiour say you and are diuers from those that the Apostles left So that the controuersie is principally of those matters that Christ only spake and neither the Euangelists nor Apostles haue set downe in writing But that we may vnderstand what wee doe it is further to be knowne that the question is not whether if there be any such traditions wee are bound to beleeue them for that is out of all doubt but whether there be any such or no or whether the Scriptures doe not containe sufficient direction for the determining of al matters of importance to saluation and for the substance of religion You that you may discredit the Scriptures to aduance traditions doe not so much as acknowledge that the maine grounds of doctrine are there plainly taught but mince the matter with your some such principall points and may be gathered out of the holy Scripture whereas not onely those two you name but if not all yet many more are manifestly therein declared Our reasons speaker W. P. Testimonie I. Deutr. 4. 2. Thou shalt not adde to the words that I commande thee nor take anything therefrom therefore the written worde is sufficient for all doctrines pertaining to saluation If it bee said that this commandement is spoken as well of the vnwritten as of the written word I answere that Moses speaketh of the written word onely for these very words are a certaine preface which hee set before a long commentarie made of the written lawe for this ende to make the people more attentiue and obedient speaker D. B. P. Let the words be set where you will they must not be wrested beyond their proper signification The words cited signifie no more then that we must not either by addition or subtraction chaunge or peruert Gods commaundements whether they be written or vnwritten speaker A. W. To interpret this place of vnwritten traditions is to strengthen the Iewes error and to voide our Sauiours reproofe And if there were any such though the particulars were
to keepe out their like from entring into this Iland the glorie of God the safetie of the King and the prosperitie of this kingdome are all waining in the last quarter For howsoeuer it be very true that some Popish errors hinder not men from remaining good and faithfull subiects yet as his Maiestie most wisely and truly obserued None of those that trulie know and beleeue the whole grounds and conclusions of their Schoole doctrine can euer prooue either good Christians or faithfull subiects For the former I referre my selfe to most of the points handled in this Treatise ensuing for the latter let the doctrine and practise of the Romish Synagogue it selfe giue sentence How can he possibly be a faithfull subiect that is to be commanded in the highest bond of conscience by forreine authoritie Shall we rest vpon the Popes holinesse as if he forsooth would not enioyne any thing that should preiudice any Prince in his estate temporall Let former examples passe can any true or iust dealing be hoped for at his hands whose vassals daily teach subiects that it is meritorious to murther Princes Would not the Pope if hee had misliked that doctrine haue checkt it long before this time either in some generall Councill or by some definitiue sentence of his owne as your Lordship hath prudently obserued And whereas their Arch-priest Blackwell condemnes all attempting of ought against Princes by any priuate authoritie doth hee not which is also your Lordships wise obseruation reserue thereby a tacite lawfulnes thereof in case it be directed by publike warrant So impossible is it for a Papist that beleeues the Pope cannot erre and holds himselfe therefore bound in conscience to obey him in all his commandements to be a faithfull subiect to any Prince in the world whatsoeuer But I haue been carried further in this matter than I purposed it remaines that I humbly craue pardon of your Lordship and commend there my poore labours to your honourable and gâ—â—tious acceptance beseeching God to continue your life and to encrease your zeale care and wise loâ—… to the glorie of his name the further aduaâ—… of religion the prosperiâ—â—â— of the estate the saâ—â—â—e and honour of his Maiestie â—…d your owne present and euerlasting comfort through Iesus Christ. From my house on the Tower Hill February 18. Anno 16â—◠〈◊〉 Lordâ—hips to be commanded in all Câ—râ—stian dutie Aâ—â—ONY WOTTON TO THE READER WHen I had finished my poore labours in answering and compared Master Perkins Treatise the Papists accusation and my defence together I could see no better course for thy vnderstanding of al three then to set downe all three euery one in the Authers owne words Now I came at the last to view them all three together the greatnes of the booke driueth me into some feare least that which I intended for thy good in reading of it should proue an occasion of thy forbearing to read it Only my hope is that knowledge of the truth being the end of thy reading thou wilt not thinke much of a little more paines or cost which necessity hath laid vpon them who desire to benefit themselues by vnderstanding the difference betwixt the Gospell and Popery That neither my tediousnesse nor darkenesse might offend or stay thee I haue laboured for as much plainenes as I could well attaine to with so much breuitie The skoffing reuiling and slaundering of the Aduersarie I haue chosen rather to referre to God the reuenger of all such Antichristian dealing and to thy discreete and Christian consideration then to answere in the like measure and kind of sinning But if it please thee in reading of the booke to compare the testimony he giueth of M. Perkins in his Preface to the Reader with his carriage toward him in the whole course of his answering thou shalt easily discerne that either the one or the other or both must needs be without iudgement or conscience For my course of answering I shall need to say nothing because I spake sufficiently of it in my answere to the twelue Articles In this present booke thou mayest know where M. Perkins the Aduersarie and my defence beginneth and endeth as well by the difference of the print as by the great or capitall letters set in the margin W. P. for William Perkins D. B. P. for the Aduersarie vnknowen hiding himselfe vnder those three letters A. W. for Antony Wotton And this course is obserued throughout the whole booke saue a few places where the marginall notes would afford no roome to those letters I haue further added some short answers in the margin here and there which thou maiest perceiue by the matter and letter It remaineth that I humbly and earnestlie intreat thee to examine what we haue written without preiudice and partiality and to acknowledge the truth with liking where it shall please God to make it euident vnto thee which he will certainly doe according to his promise if thou call vpon him in humility and faith for the assistance of his holy Spirit To whose gratious direction I commend thee now and euer Tower hill Febr. 18. 1606. Thine in the Lord Iesus Antony Wotton speaker D. B. P. TO THE MOST PVISSANT PRVDENT AND RENOWMED PRINCE IAMES the first by the grace of God King of England Scotland France and Ireland Defendor of the Faith c. MOst Gratious and dread Soueraâ—gne Albeit my slenddr skill cannot affoord any discourse worthie the view of your Excellencie neither my deadded and daily interrupted and persecuted studies will giue me leaue to accomplish that little which otherwise I â—…ght vndertake and performe Yet being â—nboldeâ—ed both by your high 〈◊〉 and gratious fauour euer shewed vnto all good litterature especially concerning Diuinitie and also vrged by mine owne bounden dutie and particular affection I presume to present vnto your Highnes this shoâ—…â—…ing â—â—eatise For your exceeding clemencie â—…es and rare modestie in the most eâ—inent estate of to mightie a Monarch as it cannot but winne vnto you great loue in the hâ—arts of all considerate Subiects so on the other side doth it encourage them confidently to open their mindes and in dutifull manner to vnfold themselves vnto their so louing and astable a Sâ—uâ—raiâ—ne And whereas 〈◊〉 the no vulgar praise of your Maâ—estâ—es pâ—…e you haue made open and often profession of your vigilancie and care to aduance the diuine honor of our Saâ—… Christ and his most sacred Religion Then what faithfull Châ—…an should slagger or feare to lay open and deliuer publikely that which he assureth himselfe to be verâ— expedient necessarie and a reeable towards the furnishing and seâ—ting forward of so heauenly a worke Moreouer if I your Maiesties poore subiect haue by studie at home and trauaile abroad attained vnto any small talent of learning and knowledge to whom is the vse and fruite thereof more due then vnto my so graâ—â—ous and withall so learned a Liege speaker A. W. Is it a dutifull manner of vnfolding your selfe to charge
Origenist taught that sinne was not taken away in Baptisme but only couered as is recorded by that holy man and auncient Father Eâ—…anius M. Perâ—ins in the name of the Church of England affirmeth in like manner that originall sinne remaineth still and raigneth in the regenerate albeit it is not imputed vnto them speaker A. W. Neither Methodius out of whom Epiphanius recites Proclus opinions in many leaues together word for word nor Epiphanius himselfe refute that of the remainders of sin after Baptisme rather they both confesse that the sproutes and branches of concupiscence abide in vs yea that sinne dwels in vs by which the diuell preuailes The Apostle saith Methodius Rom. 7. seemes to make a three-fold law The first the law of the minde according to that good that is ingrafted in vs. The second by the assault of the diuell vrging and distracting the minde by imaginations full of passion The third which triumphs in the flesh by sinne which the Apostle calles the law of sinne dwelling in our members That Hierom is of our opinion in this point it appeares in his booke against the Pelagians speaker D. B. P. Iouinian was accounted a Monster by S. Augustine for defending honest Marriage to be of equall vertue and merite with chaste Virginitie and saith further that this heresie was so sottish and fleshly that it could not deceiue any one learned Priest but onely some few simple and carnall women Yet this our English champion blusheth not to affirme that marriage is not only equall but better also in diuers respects than Virginitie speaker A. W. S. Austin was neither so ancient nor so holie as S. Paul hauing him on our side we neede not feare the other But the report you make of him is vntrue For these are his words in English This heresie preuailed so much in the citie of Rome that it is said to haue throwne into the estate of mariage euen some vowed virgins of whose chastitie there had been no suspition before So farre is Augustine from calling them simple and carnall Beside he addes though you will not be knowne of it that he weakned and ouerthrew the holy single life of holie men by rehearsing and commending the Fathers Abraham Isaack Iacob who were married men And whereas he saith it could not come to the deceiuing of any Priests for learned and any one is your glosse besides the text he seemes to attribute it to the short continuance thereof It was saith he quickly opprest and extinguished and could not come to the deceiuing of any Priests speaker D. B. P. The same olde reprobate heretike barked also against approoued feasts and fasting dayes so doe most of our Ministers at this time speaker A. W. Our Ministers doe all generally approoue both of feasts and fasting daies keeping the former more religiously than you doe ordinarily the Sabbath The latter we obserue with reuerence and humilitie whensoeuer they are appointed Fish daies superstitiously abused by you are ciuilly retained by vs with lesse riot than your selues doe vse speaker D. B. P. Vigilantius was sharpely reprooued by S. Hierome in a booke written against him and hath been euer since vnto this day esteemed a wicked heretike for denying prayer to Saints and honour to be done vnto their Reliâ—es And yet what poynt of Doctrine is more currant among the Protestants than this speaker A. W. Erasmus not without cause findes want of modestie in that treatise of Hieroms he might haue found want of truth too if Vigilantius held no worse opinion than those you recite But of the former namely praying to Saints neither the one nor the other speakes a word And indeede it was not the manner in those daies to pray to the Martyrs but to pray at their Tombes which custome it should seeme remained till that time according to the former practise of the Christians who assembled ordinarily where the Martyrs were buried before they were suffered to haue any Churches speaker A. W. In like sorte one Aërius to the Arrian heresie added this of his owne That we must not pray for the soules of our friends departed as S. Augustine hath registred And doe not all Protestants imbrace and earnestly defend the same This doctrine of prayer for the dead the deniall whereof is counted an errour in Aërius hath no foundation in the Scripture but was built vpon the tradition of the Fathers as he from whom Austin takes the accusation confesseth speaker A. W. A common custome it was of the Arrians and of other more auncient heretikes to reiect all Traditions and to rely onely vpon the written word as testifieth S. Ireneus and S. Augustine Doe not ours the same reiecting all Traditions as Mans Inuention A perilous error no doubt to rest wholy vpon the written word that is to beleeue none but God in matters of his owne worship and religion Ireneus in the places alleaged hath no word of reiecting traditions rather hee speakes the contrarie of Simon Maguâ— who reiected the Scripture to establish his owne deuices S. Austin findes no fault with Maximinus for resting vpon the Scriptures nor indeede reasonably could for it is his own doctrine in that conference with the Heretike and other where speaker D. B. P. Xeaâ—…s a Barbaâ—ous Persian indeed yet in shew a counterfeited Christian is noted for one of the first among Christians that inueyed against the Images of Saints and the worship done by true Christians vnto them as both Nicephorus and Cedâ—… comppenâ—… doe recorde The reprobate Iewes indeede before him and after euen vntill this day the misâ—râ—anâ— Turkes enemies of all Christianitie doe dwell still in the same erâ—…r And yet is not this most vehemently auerâ—ed by our Protestants and all â—aluiâ—â—sts although they cannot denie but that aboue 900. yeares agoe in the second generall Councell holden at Nice they are by the conâ—â—nt of the best and most learned of the world for euer accursed that doe denie reuerence and worshippe to be giuen vnto the Images of Saints speaker A. W. Nicephorus you should haue added Callistus that the reader might haue knowne whom you meant and haue quoted lib. 16. not 10. who liued not 400. yeeres since and Cedrenus who liued as it is thought about the yeere 1058. are neither of antiquitie nor credit to auow a historie not recorded by any of their ancients But how could Xenaias about the yeere 478. be one of the first if the Commentarie vpon Damascen say true That the worshipping of Images was condemned as superstitious by some about the beginning of the Gospell preached Cedrenus saith be was one of the first Callistus after him more then 200. yeeres saith he was the first speaker D. B. P. The second Councel of Nice was a conuenticle of Idolaters neither of the best nor of the most learned and was presently after
condemned by the Councell of Frankfort I will omitte sundrie other heades of the Protestants Religion by all approued antiquitie reproued aad condemned that I passe not the boundes of an Epistle and seeme ouer tedious vnto your Maiestie Especially considering that these are sufficient to conuince that those points wherein the Protestants affirme the present Church of Rome to haue so farre degenerate from the auncient are the very essentiall parts of saith then maintayned by the Romans And the contrary opinions nothing else but wicked heresies of old inuented and obstinately helde against the same Roman See euen as they are now our time and of old also condemned by the same Church in her most flourishing and best estate Wherefore your most excellent Maiestie being resolute in that singular good opinion that no Church ought farther to depart from the Church of Rome then shee is departed from her selfe in her flourishing estate must needes recall the Church of England from such extrauagant opinions to ioyne with the Roman Church in the aforesaid articles which shee in her best time helde for parts of pure faith And in all others also which they cannot directly proue in a lawfull disputation before your Maiestie to haue beene altred by her particularly naming the point of Doctrine the author oâ— the chaunge the time and place where and when ht liued who followed him who resisted him and such other like circumstances which all bee easily shewed in euery such reuolte or innouation because thâ— vigilant care of the Pastors of Christs flocke haue bin alwaies so great as no such things could be vnknowne let slippe or vnrecorded Thus much for my first reason collected from the vntruth of the Protestants religion speaker A. W. What are nine points to nine skore that I may speake the least and yet it is not prooued that any of these were held by the Romanes whose faith S. Paul commends nor indeed euer can be It is enough for vs if we can shew by record of Scripture that the doctrine the Church of Rome now holds is not that she maintained in her best estate which we often haue done and alwaies will be ready to doe Is it not a good plea in law to prooue by ancient euidences and deedes that the land was mine vnlesse I can shew when and how the possession of euery house Medow Close c. was lost yet it stands you vpon to proue how you came by it and by what right you hold it Which you must doe when all comes to all by the Scripture or else your title will neuer be good speaker D. B. P. The second shall be grounded vpon the vngodlines of it where I wil let passe that high point of impiety that they make God who is goodnes it selfe the author of all wicked actions done in the world And will besides say nothing of that their blasphemie against our Sauiour Iesus Christ that he ouercome with the paines of his passion vpon the Crosse did doubt if not dispaire of his owne saluation being vnwilling to touch any other poynts then such as are afterwards discussed in this booke speaker A. W. You may well let both these passe for they are your slanders not our opinions as hath been shewed sufficiently elsewhere The triumphant Citizens of heauen who enioy the presence of God and happiest life that can be imagined are by Protestants disdainfullie termed Dead men and esteemed neither to haue credit with God to obtaine any thing nor any care or compassion on men among whom they once liued and conuersed so kindly The Saints departed we loue and honour but are forced to call them dead men as Austin doth by reason of your Idolatrie with the same disdaine in our weake measure with which the Apostle disgraced Circumcision Of their credit with God we doubt not their care of men we denie not but wee know no calling they haue to become our mediatours with dishonour to God and Christ. And as for the poore soules departed who in Purgatorie fire pay deare for their former delightes and pleasures they depriue them of all humane succour by teaching the world to beleeue that there is no such matter speaker D. B. P. We depriue them of nothing that God in the Scripture allowes them Prooue your Purgatorie thence and we will confesse our error Concerning vs Christians yet liuing on earth there is no lesse impietie in their opinions For they teach that the best Christian is no better in effect then a whited Sepulchre being inwardly full of all wickednes and mischiefe and onlie by an outwarde imputation of Christs righteousnes vnto them are accepted of God for iust To thinke that there is inherent in the soule of Man any such grace of God as doth cleanse it from sinne and make the man iust in his sight is with them to raze the foundation of Religion and to make Christ a Pseudochrist wherein I know not whether they be more enuious against the good of Man then they are iniurious either to the inestimable value of Christs blood as though it could not deserue any better estate for his fauourites or vnto the vertue and efficacie of the holy Ghost as not being able by likeliehood to purge mens soules from sinne and endue them with such Heauenly qualities I omitte the disgrace thereby don to the Blessed God-head it selfe making the Holie of Holies father willing to couer and cleake our iniquitie then to cure it And contrarie to his infinite goodnes to loue them whom hè seeth defiled with all manner of abhominations speaker A. W. We acknowledge euery true Christian to be righteous in the sight of God after iustification by inherent though imperfect righteousnes and account none whited sepulchers but those that bragge or make shee of holines being but hypocrites We ascribe our iustification wholy and onely to the mercie of God in forgiuing our sinnes for Christs obedience by accounting faith to vs for rightcousnes We enuie not the good of man but preferre Gods truth before mans pride Our Sauiour Christs sacrifice we megnifie as infinitly perfect but wee know the whole eâ—…t thereof is not perfected at once in vs though the holie Ghost be of infinit power which in respect of vs is limited by the gratious and wise prouidence of God We teach that God doth not onely couer our sinnes by forgiuing them but cure our corruption by abolishing it wholy yet by little and little His loue depends not vpon our righteousnes for he loued vs when wee were most vnrighteous but vpon the estate of being his sonnes members of his beloued sonne Iesus Christ and elected to adoption and saluation by him before the foundation of the world was laid speaker D. B. P. Vnto these paradoxes impious against God and slaunderous to man If it will please your Maiestie to adde the prophane carnallity of some other poynts of the Protestant Doctrine you
not the Virgin Mary in your seruice called the promise of the Prephets the Queene of the Patriarkes the schoolmistris of the Euangelists the teacher of the Apostles the comforter of the quick and the dead Who thâ—… saios deuoutly this short prayer daily saith the Rubrick shall not depart out of this world without penance and ministration of the holy Sacrament In another prayer in the same booke shee is called the most true schoolmistris of the Euangelists the most wise teacher of the Apostles The booke was printed at Paris by Francis Regnault 1526. What profound piercing into such naturall affection can exccuse these speeches what French phrase can warrant it But what should we striue about the forciblenes of her prayers when it is not nor can be prooued that she prayes at all speaker W. P. Therefore we haue good cause to blesse the name of God that hath freed vs from the yoke of this Roman bondage and hath brought vs to the true light and libertie of the Gospell And it should be a great height of vnthankfulnesse in vs not to stand ouer against the present Church of Rome but to yeelde ourselues to plots of reconciliation To this effect and purpose I haue penned this little Treatise which I present to your worship desiring it might be some token of a thankfull minde for vndeserued loue And I craue withall not onely your Worshipfull which is more common but also your learned protection being well assured that by skill and arte you are able to iustifie whatsoeuer I haue truelie taught Thus wishing to you and yours the continuance and the increase of faith and good conscience I take my leaue Cambridge Iune 28. 1597. Your W. in the Lord VVilliam Perkins Wherefore to conclude this Epistle if there be no waightier cause then this by you here produced vvhy you and your adherent doe not reconcile your selues vnto the Church of Rome you may shortly by Gods grace become nevv men for vve are so farre off from making our Sauiour Christ a Pseudochâ—â—st or from dravving one iote of excellencie from his soueraâ—gne povver merits or dignitie that vve in the very points by you put downe doe much more magnifie him then you doe For in maintaining the authority by him imparted vnto his deputies our spirituall Magistrates and of their merits and satisfaction We first say that these his seruants prerâ—… be his hee gifts of 〈…〉 grace bestovved on vvhom he pleaseth vvhich is no finall praise of his great liberality And vvithall affirme that there is an infinite difference betvveene his ovâ—ne povver merits and satisfaction and ours Wherein his soueraigne honour is preserued entire to himselfe vvithout any comparison Novv you make Christs authoritie so base his merits and satisfaction so meane that if he â—…part any degree of them vnto his seruants he looseth the honour of all from himselfe Whereupon it follow eth inuinciblie if you vnfeignedly seeke Christ Iesus his true honour and vvill esteeme of his diuine giftes vvorthelie you must hold out no longer but vnâ—te your selfe in these necessarie heades of Religion vnto the Catholike Church of Rome which so highly exalted him both in his owne excellencie and in his singular giftes to his subiects speaker A. W. The least of these is cause sufficient to withhold vs from ioyning with the Church of Rome at least in that point The Kings authoritie is not abased because he cannot communicate any of his royalties to his subiects That Christ must needes lose by it I shewed before for it argues an insufficiencie in his satisfaction speaker W. P. THE AVTHOR TO THE CHRISTIAN READER BY a Reformed Catholike I vnderstand any one that holds the same necessarie heades of religion with the Roman Church yet so as he pares off and reiects all errours in doctrine whereby the said religion is corrupted How this may be done I haue begun to make some little declaration in this small Treatise the intent whereof is to shew how neere we may come to the present church of Rome in sundrie points of religion and wherein we must for euer dissent My purpose in penning this small discourse is threefold The first is to confute all such Politikes as hold and maintaine that our religion that of the Roman Church differ not in substance and consequently that they may be reconciled yet my meaning is not here to condemne any Pacification that tends to perswade the Roman Church to our religion The second is that the Papists which thinke so basely of our religion may be won to a better liking of it when they shall see how neere we come vnto them in sundrie points The third that the common Protestant might in some part see conceiue the point of difference betweene vs and the Church of Rome and know in what manner and how farre forth we condemne the opinions of the said Church I craue pardon for the order which I vse in handling the seuer all points For I haue set them downe one by one as they came to minde not respecting the lawes of Method If any Papist shall say that I haue not alleadged their opinions aright I answere that their bookes be at hand and I can iustifie what I haue said Thus crauing thine acceptation for this my paines and wishing vnto thee the increase of knowledge and loue of pure and sound religion I take my leaue and make an ende speaker D. B. P. AN ANSWERE TO THE Preface VPON your preface to the Reader I will not stand because it toucheth no point of controuersie let it be declared in your next what you meane when you desire your reformed Catholike to hold the same necessarie heades of Religion with the Romane Church for if the Romane Church doth erre in the matter of faith and iustification in the number and vertue of the Sacraments in the bookes and interpretation of the word of God if she raze the foundation and make Christ a Pseudochrist and an Idoll to omitte twenty other eâ—rors in substantial points of faith as in this your small discourse you would perswade there will remaine verie few necessarie heades of Religion for them to agree in And be you well assured that you are so wide from winning Catholikes by this your worke to a better liking of your Religion that you haue taken the high way to lead them to a farre greater dislike of it by teaching that in so many materiall points it differeth so farre from theirs For all Catholikes hold for most assured that which the most auncient learned and holie Doctor Athanasius in his creede deliuereth in the 2. vers VVhich Catholike faith vnlesse euery man obserue wholy and inuiolably not omitting or shrinking from any one article of it vvithout doubt he shall perish euerlastingly If S. Basil that reuerent and blessed Father of the Church doth hold it the dutie of euerie good Christian rather to loose his life then to condescend to the alteration
a sentence of his in commendation of Pope Eugenius which is so full of flatterie that I say not impietie that it can carrie no credit with any modest Christian. It should seeme you saw so much your selfe and therefore craftily left out these absurd and vile speeches viz. Thou art Abel in primacie Noah in gouernment in Patriarkship Abraham in order Melchisedech in authoritie of iudging Samuel in vnction that is either in annoynting or in being annoynted Christ. If this be not a blinde sentence on Bernards part and a broken sentence on yours there is nothing but may abide the light be it neuer so false and be accounted whole be it neuer so mangled It is rather grosse ignorance in you to finde fault with that you vnderstand not Master Perkins neither saith nor meanes that there were many Bishops of Rome at once and yet there haue been three Popes together but according to the Canon cals the Cardinals Bishops of Rome referring this word of Rome not to Bishops simply but to Cardinall Bishops Now all Cardinals were Cardinals of Rome or of the Romish Church The Canon indeede puts not in those words of Rome but the sense is nothing altered by the adding of them For the cleere vnderstanding of the matter we are to know that all Cardinals are either Cardinall Bishops whom the Canon appoints first to consult about electing of the Pope or Cardinall Clerkes that is of some inferiour order of the Clergie the general name wherof is Clerke whether it be Priesthood Deaconship c and these must in the second place be called to the election Now let men iudge whether Master Perkins or you are in fault This Canon is brought to prooue the former proposition that he is no lawfull Pope who is chosen only by the Cardinals and not also by the consent of the rest of the Clergie and people If you had been as carefull to auoide slandering as that reuerend and learned writer was to take heede of vntruths you would neuer haue raised such a suspition of him in this point For the cleering of him let his owne desence against Master Hardings reproches speake For the present Roger Houeden who liued in that time records the historie and sets downe Ioachims words to King Richard That Antichrist was alreadie borne in the citie of Rome and that he should be exalted into the Apostolike seate But you except against Ioachim as an heretike so doth not Bellarmine but onely denies that he writ any such thing It is true that the Councell of Lateran vnder Pope Innocent the third condemned a certaine booke that Abbat Ioachim writ against Peter Lombard Bishop of Paris commonly called the Master of the Sentences concerning the vnitie or essence of the Trinitie but it did not reiect him as an heretike yea the Councell specially addes that they will not by their sentence any way derogate from the Abbey of Florence whereof he was the orderer as well because the orders in it were good as also for that he had submitted all his writings to the Apostolike see Therefore Iodocus Coccius makes him one of his Latin Doctors out of whom he confirmes your Popish doctrine And Trithemius saith that he was a man studious and exercised in the Scriptures and that he writ many things against the Iewes and other aduersaries of the Catholike faith Petrark one of the lights of his age for learning wrote about 250. yeeres since that Rome was become Babylon and not onely Babylon but false and wicked Babylon Further in the same place he calles her The fountaine of griefe the lodge of wrath the schoole of error the temple of heresie a shamelesse strumpet which hauing been founded in chastitie humilitie and pouertie hath lifted vp her hornes against her founders the Emperours In another place he calles her couetous Babylon that hath filled vp the measure of Gods wrath with impious and wicked vices so that it runnes ouer In a third he termes her impious Babylon from whom all shame is fled the lodge of griefe and mother of errors in whom there is no goodnes I set not down all he speakes against her somewhat I haue touched that I might see how easily you will answere his words but I thinke he that hath read Bellarmine of this point may gesse before hand what you can say in the matter Irenaeus as you truly say determines not what shall be Antichrists name and leanes more to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 than to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet neither doth he allow of that because a man as hee saith may with likelihood gather by many things that his name perhaps shall not be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he affirmes that it is very likely and giues his reason of it because the most true kingdome had that name Master Perkins expounded it not as a proper name but as an appellatiue because neither the Euangelist nor Irenaeus doe intend to shew Antichrists proper name but to make knowne the name of the Beast which Antichrist should make all take Now the Beast being the Romane or Latin state the name also must be sutable thereunto as wee see it is our Papists calling themselues Romane that is Latin Catholikes I will not fall into exhortation hereupon only I desire all men that haue care of their saluation to consider without preiudice whether it be not euident that the state of Rome whereof the Pope is head is the whore of Babylon prophecied of by S. Iohn Reuelat 17. speaker W. P. Againe this commandement must not so much be vnderstood of a bodily departure in respect of cohabitation and presence as of a spirituall separation in respect of faith and religion And the meaning of the holy Ghost is that men must depart from the Romish Church in regard of Iudgement and doctrine in regard of their faith and the worship of God Thus then we see that the words containe a commaundement from God inioyning his Church and people to make a separation from Babylon Whence I obserue That all those who will bee saued must depart and separate themselues from the faith and religion of this present church of Rome And whereas they are charged with schisme that separate on this manner the truth is they are not schismatiks that doe so because they haue the commandement of God for their warrant and that partie is the schismatike in whom the cause of this separation lieth and that is in the Church of Rome namely the cup of abomination in the whores hand which is their heretical and schismaticall religion speaker D. B. P. And because I purpose God willing not only to confute what M. Perkins bringeth against the Catholike doctrine but some what also in euerie Chapter to fortifie and confirme it I will here deliuer what some of the most auncient most learned
1 the Apostle may be applied to the proposition because they that would be circumcised would be iustified by the workes of the law Whereupon it followeth that he that will be iustified by workes is bound to keepe the whole law For so the Apostle saith of them that will be iustified by circumcision speaker W. P. III. Election to saluation is of grace without workes therefore the iustification of a sinner is of grace alone without workes For it is a certaine rule that the cause of a cause is the cause of a thing caused Now grace without works is the cause of election which election is the cause of our iustification and therefore grace without workes is the cause of our iustification speaker D. B. P. Ans. That election is of grace vvithout vvorkes done of our ovvne simple forces or vvithout the vvorks of Moses lavv but not vvithout prouision of good vvorkes issuing out of faith and the helpe of Gods grace as shall be handled more largely in the question of merits speaker A. W. This answere is not only against the Apostle Paul and Austins exposition of him but also contrarie to Lombard Thomas Bellarmine and generally the learnedst Papists as it shall appeare if this writer giue occasion speaker W. P. IV. A man must first be fully iustified before he can doe a good worke for the person must first please God before his works can please him But the person of a sinner cannot please God till he bee perfectly iustified and therefore till he bee iustified hee cannot doe so much as one good worke And thus good works cannot be any meritorious causes of iustification after which they are both for time and order of nature In a word whereas they make two distinct iustifications wee acknowledge that there be degrees of sanctification yet so as iustification is onely one standing in remission of sinnes and Gods acceptation of vs to life euerlasting by Christ and this iustification hath no degrees but is perfect at the very first OF THE SECOND IVSTIFICATION speaker D. B. P. THe fourth argument A man must be fully iustified before he can doe a good vvorke and therefore good vvorkes cannot goe before iustification True not before the first iustification of a sinner But good Sir you hauing made in the beginning of this last Article a distinction betweene the first and second iustification And hauing before discussed the first and the second novv remaining and expecting you vvhy did you not say one vvord of it the matter being ample and vvell vvorthy the handling speaker A. W. He that denieth a second iustification and hath disprooued it neede not stand vpon a deuice of yours how worthy the handling soeuer you thinke it speaker D. B. P. Albeit you vvill not vvillingly confesse any second iustification as you say Yet had it been your partat least to haue disproued such arguments as vve bring to proue a second iustification Ye acknovvledge that there be degrees of sanctification But these degrees must be made dovvnevvard of euill vvorser and vvorst for if all our sanctification and best vvorkes be like vnto defiled cloutes and no better then deadly sinnes as you hold else vvhere let any vvise man iudge vvhat degrees of goodnesse can be lodged in it speaker A. W. But that you knew none of your side doe vse to reade our bookes nor dare without your licence neither you nor other of your Popish complices would for shame write in this sort You haue been often answered that wee acknowledge inherent righteousnesse and labour for and by the grace of God attaine to the increase of it in some measure from day to day speaker A. W. Againe how absurd is that position that there is but one iustification whereby they take fast hold on Christs righteousnes which can neuer after be either lost or increased Why then doe you with your brother Jounuan maintaine that all men are equally righteous If it so be let him that desireth to see you wel coursed read S. Hierome S. Amorose S. Augustine S. Gregorie speaker D. B. P. We maintaine that all men are equally righteous in regard of iustification but vnequally in respect of sanctification Iouinian is rather one of your brood who hold that a man being iustified is wholy without sin euen in Gods iudgement At least you must needs vphold that a man is as iust and righteous at his first conuersion as at his death how godly a life soeuer he lead against vvhich I vvill put dovvne these reasons follovving speaker A. W. First that of the reuelations Let him that is iust be yet iustified or as your text hath it He that is righteous let him be more righteous speaker D. B. P. He that is iustified is as righteous at the first as at the last in respect of iustification but not inherent righteousnes or sanctification of which the places you alleage are meant and therefore need no further answere But that you may the rather see our desire to satisfie you I will speake a little of them Iustified in that place signifieth to proceede in doing iustly as Ribera the Iesuite proueth by the opposition in the other part of the sentence Let him that hurteth hurt still that is goe forward in your hurting saith he and so let him that hurteth no bodie but giueth euery man his due goe forward in so doing Let him that doth good saith your glosse yet doe good more abundantly Let him that is righteous saith Cyprian in two places doe yet more righteous things and him that is holy more holy The Greeke Scholiast reade it thus Let him that is righteous yet worke righteousnes And so doe the Greeke Testaments printed by Plantin and the Interlinear Bible too so that there is not so much as the word iustified in some of your owne Greeke copies And that feare not to be iustified euen vntill death do conuince that there are more iustifications then one and that a man may increase in iustification and righteousnes vntill death speaker A. W. That of Ecclesiasticus would haue been spared till you haue proued that booke to be canonicall which you know we deny and that as we are sure with the consent of the auncient Church at least you should not haue alleadged it with so grosie an error in the translation The Greek is differ not The old Latin was in all likelyhood Be not forbidden or hindered as it may appeare by Vatablus edition of it by Robert Stephens that of Antwerpe and that with the glosse where Lyra expounds it ne prohibearis Andradius deliuers it thus Let there be nothing that may hinder thee from praying alwaies or may let thee from being iustified euen vntill death Some ignorant writer that copied out the booke finding ne veteris be not let and mistaking t for r writ ne
to the poore they pill them by fines and vnreasonable rents and by vsury and crafty bargaines are not ashamed to cousen their nearest kinne Finally in place of prayer and washing away their owne sins by many bitter teares they sing meerely a Geneua Psalme and raile or heare a railing at our imagined sinnes or pretended errors And so leaue and lay all paine and sorrow vpon Christs shoulders thinking themselues belike to be borne to pleasure and pastime and to make merry in this world speaker A. W. This spitefull and slanderous inuectiue of yours sauouring neither of conscience nor ciuilitie whereby you charge your soueraigne his counsailers nobles gentrie and all that any where in sinceritie professe the Gospell of Iesus Christ with flat Epicurisme I wittingly omit holding it more Christian like to be railed vpon without cause then to raile vpon desert We vse our libertie with moderation how you priests and Iesuits obserue that which feare of damnation hope of reward the lawes of your superiors and your owne vowes bind you to I had rather euery man should iudge according to his knowledge then suspect by my reporting of that which would not seeme very vnlikely The seuenth point Of Traditions speaker W. P. Traditions are doctrines deliuered from hand to hand either by word of mouth or by writing beside the written word of God Our consent Conclus I. Wee hold that the very worde of God hath beene deliuered by tradition For first God reuealed his will to Adam by word of mouth and renewed the same vnto the Patriarkes not by writing but by speech by dreames and other inspirations and thus the worde of God went from man to man for the space of two thousand and foure hundred yeeres vnto the time of Moses who was the first pen-man of holy scripture For as touching the prophesie of Enoch we commonly holde it was not penned by Enoch but by some Iew vnder his name And for the space of this time men worshipped God and helde the articles of their faith by tradition not from men but immediately from God himselfe And the historie of the new testament as some say for eightie yeeres as some others thinke for the space of twenty yeeres and more went from hand to hand by tradition till penned by the Apostles or being penned by others was approoued by them speaker D. B. P. Hitherto we agree but not in this which he interlaceth that in the state of nature euery man was instructed of God immediately in both matters of faith and religion For that God then as euer since vsed the ministerie aswell of good fathers as godly masters as Enoch Noe Abraham and such like to teach their children and seruants the true worship of God and true faith in him otherwise how should the word of God passe by Tradition from Adam to Moses as M. Perkins affirmeth If no child learned any such thing of his Father but was taught immediately from God but M. Perkins seemeth to regard lâ—â—tle such petty contradictions speaker A. W. If you were not more desirous to pick quarrels then to acknowledge truth you would neuer faine such contradictions Master Perkins sayes no such thing as you charge him with but speakes only of the Patriarks by whose ministerie the rest were taught as he shewes otherwhere making it an argument to perswade housholders to the like dutie speaker W. P. Conclus II. We hold that the Prophets our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles spake and did many things good and true which were not written in the Scriptures but either came to vs or to our ancetours onely by tradition As 2. Tim. 3. 20. it is said that Iannes and Iambres were the Magitians that withstood Moses now in the books of the olde testament wee shall not finde them once named and therefore it is like that the Apostle had their names by tradition or by some writings then extant among the Iewes So Hebr. 12. 21. the author of the Epistle recordeth of Moses that when he saw a terrible sight in Mount Sinai he said I tremble and am afraide which words are not to be found in all the bookes of the old testament In the Epistle of Iude mention is made that the Diuell stroue with Michael the Archangell about the bodie of Moses which point as also the former considering it is not to be found in holy writ it seemes the Apostle had it by tradition from the Iewes That the Prophet Esai was killed with a fullers clubbe is receiued for truth but yet not recorded in Scripture and so likewise that the Virgin Mary liued and died a virgin And in Ecclesiasticall writers many worthy sayings of the Apostles and other holy men are recorded and receiued of vs for truth which neuerthelesse are not set downe in the bookes of the olde or new Testament And many things wee holde for truth not written in the worde if they bee not against the word speaker D. B. P. His 2. Conclus We hold that the Prophets our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles spake and did many things good and true which were not written in the Scriptures but came to vs by Tradition but these were not necessary to be beleeued For one example he puts that the blessed Virgin Marie liued and died a Virgin but it is necessary to saluation to beleeue this for Heluidius is esteemed by S. Augustine an Heretike for denying it speaker A. W. Master Perkins saith nothing of the necessitie of beleeuing That point of the virgin Maries perpetuall virginitie we hold to be true but we dare not lay a burthen vpon any mans conscience where the scripture is silent S. Austins iudgement though he were a singular light of the Church is not of waight inough to determine without all warrant of scripture what is heresie and what is not especially since himselfe confesseth that it cannot at all or very hardly be declared by a lawfull definition what makes a man an heretike Besides Austin thus deliuers the matter concerning the Heluidians heresie The Heluidians saith he so gaine said the virginitie of Mary that they confidentlie affirme she had other children after Christ by her husband Ioseph So that it may well be Austin counted them heretikes especially for auouching that peremptorily which they could no way make good by scripture speaker W. P. Conclus III. We hold that the Church of God hath power to prescribe ordinances rules or traditions touching time and place of Gods worship and touching order and comelines to bee vsed in the same and in this regard Paul 1. Cor. 11. 2. commendeth the Church of Corinth for keeping his traditions and Act. 15. the Counceil at lerusalem decreed that the Churches of the Gentiles should abstaine from blood and from things strangled This decree is tearmed a tradition and it was in force among them so long as the offence of the Iewes remained And this kinde of traditions whether made by generall Councels or particular Synods
not to be recorded yet it is strange that Moses should not once make mention of them in generall Thomas expounds it of adding to the words of the Scripture And if it be lawful for all these prohibitions to adde other doctrines why doth Chrysostome reprooue the Iewish Priests for hauing added many things to the law though Moses with threatning charged them they should not For it is certaine they neuer added to nor any way corrupted the text But Chrysostome accuseth them of adding because they deliuered doctrines that were not written in the Scripture as our Sauiour also saith of them Cardinall Caietan wils vs to gather from this place that the law of God is perfect speaker D. B. P. Now to inferre that because they are as a preface vnto Moses Lavv that therefore nothing must be added vnto the same Law is extreame dotage speaker A. W. What is it to refute that which your aduersarie saith not Master Perkins proues that Moses spake of the written law because he sets it as a preface before his Commentarie vpon the same law You answere nothing to that but crie out vpon extreame dotage for inferrring that because it is a preface to Moses law therefore nothing must be added to it Who inferres any such matter but your selfe You need not make worke you haue your hands full speaker D. B. P. Why then were the bookes of the old Testament written aftervvard if God had forbidden any more to be written or taught besides that one booke of Deuteronomie Shall we thinke that none of the Prophets that liued and wrote many volumes after this had read these vvords or that they either vnderstood them not or that vnderstanding them vvell did vvilfully transgresse against them one of these the Protestants must needs defend or else for very shame surcease the alleadging of this text for the all sufficiencie of the written vvord We neither need nor will defend either of them But we denie your consequence if no man might adde any thing to the law of God deliuered by Moses then the Prophets offended in writing so many volumes The reason is that the Prophets writ not as men but as the instruments of Gods spirit inditing and penning by them God did not tie his owne hands by that commandement that he might not from time to time instruct his people as it should seeme good to his infinite wisedome To speake yet more plainly the Prophets and Apostles writings are nothing els but expositions of that the summe whereof is deliuered in the fiue bookes of Moses wherein the whole doctrine of the Law and the Gospell is contained speaker W. P. Testimonie II. Isai. 8. 20. To the law and to the testimonie If they speake not according to this worde it is because there is no light in them Here the Prophet teacheth what must be done in cases of difficultie Men must not runne to the wizard or southsaier but to the law and testimonie and here he commends the written word as sufficient to resolue all doubts and scruples in conscience whatsoeuer speaker D. B. P. Here the Prophet teacheth saith M. Perkins vvhat is to be done in cases of difficulty Men must not runne to the Wizards and Soothsayers but to the Lavve and to the Testament commending the vvritten vvord as sufficient to resolue all doubts By the Lavv and testimony in that place the fiue books of Moses are to be vnderstood If that written Word be sufficient to resolue all doubts vvhatsoeuer What need vve then the Prophets vvhat need vve the Euangelists and the Epistles of the Apostles What Wizard vvould haue reasoned in such sort speaker A. W. The Scripture is not to resolue all doubts but all doubts and scruples of conscience whatsoeuer which you craftily leaue out in propounding our reason Your consequence is false If the fiue bookes of Moses be sufficient for the resoluing of al doubts what need any writings of the Prophets Euangelists or Apostles Is not the Ciuill and Canon law in your iudgement sufficient to resolue all doubts in cases concerning them is there therefore no need of any exposition thereof The rest of the Scripture is a Commentarie vpon those fiue bookes Besides is nothing required in the scripture but resoluing of doubts The historie of the Church is worth the knowing for our instruction comfort exhortation imitation and such like speaker D. B. P. The Prophet vvilleth there that the Israelites vvho vvanted vvit to discerne vvhether it be better to flie vnto God for counsell than vnto Wizards and Sooth-sayers to see vvhat is vvritten in the Lavv of Moses concerning that point of consulting Wizards vvhich is there plainely forbidden in diuers places Novv out of one particular case vvhereof there is expresse mention in the vvritten vvord to conclude that all doubts and scruples vvhatsoeuer are thereby to be decided is a most vnskilfull part arguing as great vvant of light in him as vvas in those blind Israelites speaker A. W. The Prophet doth not send them to the Law and to the testimonie to see whether it be lawfull to enquire of Soothsayers or no but tels them that they must looke into the booke of God to see whether such iudgements as the Prophets threatned should not befall them if they continued their sinning against God So that hee wils them not to hearken what the Southsayers say of their escaping the iudgements that the Prophets denounced but to trie whether their promises of safetie or the others threatning of destruction were agreeable to the word of God Though the case be particular which you put amisse yet if the triall of the Prophets doctrine be to be made by the scripture as it is wherein may we looke to vnwritten traditions speaker W. P. Testimonie III. Iohn 20. 31. These things were written that ye might beleeue that Iesus is the Christ and in beleeuing might haue euerlasting life Here is set downe the full end of the Gospell and of the whole written word which is to bring men to faith and consequently to saluation and therefore the whole scripture alone is sufficient to this ende without traditions speaker D. B. P. 3. Testimony These things vvere vvritten that yee might beleeue that Iesus is the Christ and in beleeuing might haue life euerlasting Here is set dovvne the full end of the Gospell that is to bring men to faith and consequently to saluation to vvhich the vvhole Scripture alone is sufficient vvithout Traditions Ans Here are more faults than lines First the text is craftily mangled Things being put in steed of Miracleâ— For S. Iohn saith Many other Miracles Christ did c but these vvere vvritten c. speaker A. W. Mangling is cutting off some part not putting one word for another especially such a word as containes the other Things-comprehends both doings and sayings and to both doth one of your Glosses referre this narration euen on the former verse where the word miracle is set
downe He shewes saith Lyra the insufficiencie of the Scripture in respect of Christs excellencie in worke and doctrine speaker D. B. P. Secondly S. Iohn saith not that for faith vve shall be saued but beleeuing vve should haue saluation in his name vvhich he clipped off speaker A. W. What saith Master Perkins more than your glosse doth acknowledge That faith may be anowed by which life may be had And another glosse expounds that beleeuing of faith formed by charitie which you grant iustifies It helpes vs nothing at all to leaue out those words in his name and therefore there was no clipping in it speaker D. B. P. Thirdly remember to vvhat faith S. John ascribes the meanes of our saluation not to that vvhereby vve applie vnto our selues Christs righteousnes but by vvhich vve beleeue Jesus to be Christ the Messias of the Ievves and the Sonne of God vvhich M. Perkins also concealed speaker A. W. The faith spoken of in this text is not properly iustifying faith but that is signified in the latter part of the verse where it is said that we haue life in his name that is by resting vpon his power to saue vs. The concealing of those words doth more hurt than helpe vs. speaker W. P. If it bee said that this place must bee vnderstood of Christs miracles onely I answere that miracles without the doctrine of Christ and knowledge of his sufferings can bring no man to life euerlasting and therefore the place must bee vnderstood of the doctrine of Christ and not of his miracles alone as Paul teacheth Gal. 8. 1. If we or an Angell from heauen preach vnto you any thing beside that which wee haue preached let him bee accursed And to this effect hee blames them that taught but a diuers doctrine to that which he had taught 1. Tim. 1. 3. speaker D. B. P. Novv to the present matter S. Iohn saith that these miracles recorded in his Gospell vvere vvritten that vve might beleeue Iesus to be the Son of God and beleeuing haue saluation in his name c. Therefore the vvritten vvord containes all doctrine necessary to saluation Ans. S. Iohn speaks not a word of doctrine but of miracles and therfore to conclude sufficiencie of Doctrine out of him is not to care vvhat one saith But M. Perkins foreseeing this saith it cannot be vnderstood of miracles only for miracles vvithout the doctrine of Christ can bring no man to life euerlasting True and therefore that text speaking only of miracles proueth nothing for the sufficiency of the vvritten Word Christs miracles vvere sufficient to proue him to be the Sonne of God and their Messias But that proueth not S. Iohns Gospell to containe all Doctrine needfull to saluation For many other points of faith must be beleeued also speaker A. W. Master Perkins prooues that the Euangelist speakes not only of miracles because he speakes of such a faith as will bring a man to euerlasting life which the faith that comes by miracles only will not doe You offer not to answere his reason which stands still in force against you but denie the conclusion that he speakes not onely of miracles This reason wee haue confirmed as also the interpretation by that place of Austin Iohn the Euangelist saith â—ustin witnesseth that our Lord Christ both said and did many things that are not written But those things were chosen out to be written which seemed sufficient for the saluation of the beleeuers And whereas you would restraine the text only to the proofe of Christs being the Messiah Lyra may teach you that in this conclusion the profit also of the doctrine is declared And Hugo Cardinalis saith that in these words specially the intent of the booke but generally the end of all the Scripture is declared Now the end of the Scripture is our saluation To the same purpose writes Cyrill All things that our Lord did are not written but those that the writers thought to be sufficient for manners and doctrine that we glistering with true faith good workes and vertue might come to the kingdome of heauen speaker D. B. P. And if it alone be sufficient vvhat neede vve the other three Gospels the Actes of the Apostles or any of their Epistles or the same S. Johns Reuelations speaker A. W. There are some that thinke and the opinion is not vnlikely that the Euangelist speakes of all the bookes of the new Testament which hee saw before his writing of this Gospell vnlesse perhaps the reuelation were penned by him afterward But the obiection shewes it selfe to be vaine by my former answer to the like about the fiue bookes of Moses speaker D. B. P. Finally admit that S. Johns Gospell vvere all-sufficient yet should not Traditions be excluded for Christ saith in it in plaine tearmes that he had much more to say vnto his Apostles but they as then being not able to beare it he reserueth that to be deliuered vnto them aftervvard of vvhich high mysteries S. John recordeth not much in his Gospell after Christs resurrection and so many of them must needs be deliuered by Tradition vnvvritten speaker A. W. First if it be granted that our Sauiour had at that time some new matter to deliuer which they had not heard of what get you by it It will not follow thereupon either that all things necessarie to saluation are not contained in the scriptures or that your traditions are the things that our Sauiour meant for as Austin truly affirmeth since Christ hath not signified any where in scripture what they were it is rashnes for any man to presume to say they were such or such things No man saith your Glosse may determine what they were Secondly there is no shew of consequence in your reasoning Christ had many things to say not long before his death Therefore though the Gospell be all sufficient yet there are many things not written which were needfull to be beleeued Because they were afterward to be spoken therefore were they not written at all by the Apostles and Euangelists sure Christ forbad not the writing of them in those words Thirdly this is the place which heretikes abuse to the countenancing of their traditions as you do of yours All foolish heretikes saith Austin that will haue themselues counted Christians indeuour to colour their bold fantasticall inuentions with that sentence of the Gospell I haue yet many things to say to you Lastly I answere that those many things of which Christ speakes were the same that before he had taught them which they partly vnderstood not and partly remembred not I prooue it thus Our Sauiour said before that he had taught them all things which he had heard of his father and promised to send them the holie ghost that should teach them and cause them to remember whatsoeuer he had said to them whereof we haue a worthie example in that speech
Heretikes would flie to reuelations and thereby defend their errors they might be said not to do against this rule of Tertullian Yea if traditions were of force to prooue they might easily answere Tertullian in this case that it skilled not though they could not maintaine their opinions by Scripture as long as traditions perhaps might make for them But Tertullian condemnes their errors because they cannot be auowed by the Scripture making that the onely triall speaker W. P. Againe We need no curiositie after Christ Iesus nor inquisition after the Gospell When we beleeue it we desire to beleeue nothing beside for this we first beleeue that there is nothing more which we may beleeue speaker D. B. P. By the Gospell there is vnderstood all our Christian doctrine written and vnwritten and not only the written word of the foure Euangelists else we should not beleeue the Actes of the Apostles or their Epistles no more than Traditions which Christian doctrine written and vnwritten we only beleeue by diuine faith to all other Authors we giuesuch credit as their writings do deserue speaker A. W. By the Gospell the doctrine of saluation by Christ is vnderstood which is no lesse plainly and fully deliuered in the other writings of the new Testament than in those foure bookes which we call by that particular name But that traditions should be commended vnder the title of the Gospell it is neither true nor likely You must shew some place of this author or of some other about his time to giue credit to your interpretation But it is apparant you answered at aduenture not knowing where it is to be found in Tertullian speaker D. B. P. If any man desire to see Tertullians iudgement of Traditions let him read his book of prescriptions against Heretikes where he auerreth that Traditions serue better than the Scriptures themselues to confute all Heresies Heretikes alwaies either not allowing all the bookes of Scripture or else peruerting the sense and meaning of the Scriptures speaker A. W. He that hath to doe with such Heretikes as Tertullians aduersaries then were and you Papists in part now are must of necessitie haue recourse to the iudgement of the Church For what other meanes can be vsed against them that denie the sufficiencie of the Scripture Therefore Tertullian and Irenaeus too who had to deale with the same kinde of men labours to beate them with their owne weapons and yet bring not in any new doctrine beside the Scripture but maintaine the doctrine of the Scripture against them that condemne the Scripture by the testimonies of learned men custome of the Church but he saith nothing of giuing like authoritie to the traditions and written word Beside here is no speech of doctrine but only of obseruing certaine outward ceremonies not necessarie to saluation speaker W. P. Augustine booke 2. cap. 9. de doct Christ. In those things which are plainely set downe in Scripture are found all those points which containe faith and manners of liuing well speaker D. B. P. All things necessary to be beleeued of euery simple Christian vnder paine of damnation that is the Articles of our Beleefe are contained in the Scriptures but not the resolution of harder matters much lesse of all difficulties vvhich the more learned must expresly beleeue if they vvill be saued vvhich distinction S. Augustine else-vvhere doth signifie speaker A. W. The question is only of such points as are necessarie to saluation which are all one to the learned and vnlearned vnlesse there be diuers meanes of saluation for them True it is that a Minister ought to haue more knowledge then an ordinarie Christian and that the neglect of laboring for it is damnable to him as all sinne is damnable but that which is necessarie to saluation is equallie necessarie for all men neither doth Austen allow any such distinction but refutes it rather in that verie place for he saith that all that feare God do seeke the will of God in the Canonicall scripture but the words alleaged are most plaine All those points that containe faith and manners of liuing well that is hope and charitie Now what is necessarie for any man to saluation that is not comprized in one of these speaker D. B. P. And is gathered out of many other places of his vvorkes as in that matter of rebaptizing them vvho became Catholikes after they had bin baptized by Heretikes He saith The Apostles truly haue commaunded nothing hereof in their vvritings but that custome which was laid against S. Cyprian is to be beleeued to haue flowed from an Apostolicall Tradition as there be many things which the vniuersall church holdeth and therfore are to be beleeued speaker A. W. In that place Austen makes no mention of any such difference betwixt the learned and vnlearned to saluation but teacheth directlie contrary to your doctrine in both points For the hard matters you speake of thus saith Austin when we dispute of darke matters where the certain and cleere instructions of the holy Scriptures do not help vs a mans presumption must restraine it selfe and not incline to either side This is Austens iudgement he leades vs not in these cases to traditions as you do Now for the other point he addes presently after that if the knowledge of hard questions could not be wanted without losse of saluation there would be some cleere authoritie of Scripture to instruct vs in them so far was Austen from seeking to any traditions as necessarie to saluation This testimonie is falsely alleaged by you in the later part of it which is thus in Austin and therefore are to be beleeued to haue bin enioyned by the Apostles You put the matter indefinitly are to be beleeued that so they may be thought necessarie to saluation of which there is not a word in this place of Austen speaker D. B. P. The same saith he of the custome of the Church in Baptizing Infants And in his Epist. 174. of the vvord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is not in the holy Scripture and yet neuerthelesse is defended to be vsed in the assertion of faith As also saith he vve neuer read in those bookes that the Father is vnbegotten and yet we hold that he is so to be called * And S. Augustine holds that the holy Ghost is to be adored though it be not vvritten in the vvord speaker A. W. Of the custome of baptising infants Austin saith that it is not to be despised nor by any meanes to be thought superfluous and that it were not at all to be beleeued vnlesse it were an Apostolicall tradition where he speakes not of any doctrine necessary to saluation but of the Churches practise and that indeede in a case grounded on the Scripture We speake of doctrine not of words as Austin doth in those places The matter which is signified by those words that Christ is of the same substance with his father
memories which may often faile them especially in carrying away speeches of discourse and disputation speaker W. P. II. If the beleeuing of vnwritten traditions were necessary to saluation then we must beleeue the writings of the auncient Fathers as well as the writings of the Apostles because Apostolicall traditions are not elsewhere to be found but in their bookes And wee may not beleeue their sayings as the worde of God because they often crie beeing subiect to errour and for this cause their authoritie when they speake of traditions may be suspected and we may not alwaies beleeue them vpon their word speaker D. B. P. His otherreason is that if we beleeue vnwritten Traditions were necessary to saluatiō then we must aswel beleeue the writings of the ancient Fathers as the writings of the Apostles because Apostolicall Traditions are not elsewhere to be found but in their books but that vvere absurd for they might erre Ans. That doth not follovv for three causes First Apostolicall Traditions are aswell kept in the mind of the learned as in the auncient Fathers vvritings and therefore haue more credit then the Fathers vvritings speaker A. W. It may be they were kept in the mind of the learned till they were written but that afterward and to this day they are in mens minds otherwise then as they haue learned them by reading it is not very likely Beside how can traditions be kept without adding and altering if they haue no better guide then the memories of men speaker D. B. P. Secondly they are commonly recorded of more then one of the Fathers and so haue firmer testimonie than any one of their writings speaker A. W. What is that to Master Perkins reason vnlesse you will say that we are as well to beleeue the writings of the fathers where more then one writ the same thing as we are one of the Apostles or Euangelists alone which I perswade my selfe you will not affirme speaker D. B. P. Thirdly if there should be any Apostolicall Tradition related but of one auncient Father yet it should be of more credit than any other thing of his ovvne inuention because that vvas registred by him as a thing of more estimation And gaine some of the rest of those blessed and Godly personages vvould haue reproued it as they did all other falshoods if it had not binsuch indeed as it vvas tearmed Which vvhen they did not they gaue a secret approbation of it for such and so that hath the interpretatiue consent at least of the learned of that age and the follovving for Apostolicall Tradition it so because they were taught by our Lord yet Pauls case is proper to himselfe and altogether extraordinarie The third particular is somewhat more to purpose because S. Paul hauing prooued by many reasons that women might not come into the congregations bareheaded addes in the conclusion that it was enough to stop any contentions mans mouth that the Apostles and the Churches of God allowed of no such custome But first this hatescripture Papist must be put in minde that whereas he calles these wranglers scripturists as if they had alleaged scripture for their defence there is no such thing in the text nor any one obiection so much as signified by the Apostle Secondly this custome of the Church is not alleaged because as he seemes to presume by his conclusion afterward he wanted other reason to prooue the point For as Chrysostome and others haue obserued he hath in the former part of the chapter proued it to be against nature and against scripture too Thirdly he reasons not about any matter of doctrine but about the outward carriage of men and women in the assemblie of Gods seruice Lastly it doth no way follow that because the custome of the Church must ouer-way priuate mens fancies in things indifferent therefore the Scripture containes not all things necessarie to saluation but must be supplied therein by traditions Neither doth the Apostles example warrant his conclusion The Apostle hauing proued that he exhorts to by reason and Scripture last of all alleages custome against contentious men in a thing which they tooke to be indifferent therefore wee must alleage Scriptures when they be plaine for vs and when they are not plaine tradition euen in matters of saluation Who sees not that this followes not vpon that Obiections for Traditions speaker W. P. First they alleadge 2. Thess. 2. 15. where the Apostle bids that Church keepe the ordinances which he taught either them by word or letter Hence they gather that beside the written word there be vnwritten traditions that are indeede necessarie to be kept and obeyed Answ. It is very likely that this Epistle to the Thessalonians was the first that euer Paul writ to any Church though in order it haue not the first place and therefore at the time when this Epistle was penned it might well fall out that some thinges needefull to saluation were deliuered by word of mouth not beeing as yet written by any Apostle Yet the same things were afterward set downe in writing either in the second Epistle or in the Epistles of Paul speaker D. B. P. Obserue first that insteed of Traditions according to the Greek and Latin vvord they translate Ordinances euer flying the vvord Tradition vvhere any thing is spoken in commendation of them But if any thing sound against them then thrust they in the vvord Tradition although the Greeke vvord beare it not See for this their corruption and many other a learned Treatise named The Discouery of false translation penned by M. Gregorie Martin a man most singulerly conuersant in the Greeke and Hebrevv tongues speaker A. W. Gregory Martinus cauils were answered long since by Doctor Fulke and the answer neuer yet replied to that euer I heard of by any Papist Your old translation hath in steed of traditions precepts and in the Gospell euery where traditions and yet the former place is to the commendation of traditions and all in the Gospell to their dispraise Vatablus also vseth his libertie in translating this word sometimes Instituta sometimes Constitutio sometimes Institutio the difference in our translation as farre as I can perceiue is this that we call mens precepts traditions the Apostles doctrines ordinances speaker D. B. P. Secondly is it not plaine dotage to auouch that this second Epistle to the Thessalonians was the first that euer he wrote Surely if none of his otherwere written before it yet his first to the same Church must needs haue been written before it But let vs giue the man leaue to dreame sometimes speaker A. W. It is easie to see that Master Perkins compares not this epistle with the other to the same Church but with other that were written to other Churches and generally with the bookes of the new Testament among which if wee may beleeue Irenaeus it was the ancientest except the former and perhaps the Gospell of S. Matthew for it was written
you shew any such tradition nor he is to proue the contrarie But you are to make good your proposition that the Apostles left some doctrines necessarie to be beleeued to saluation by word of mouth onely without any ground in Scripture for the particulars either expresly or by good and necessary consequence Proue this and the controuersie is at an end Moreouer S. Paul immediatly before his death in one of the last of his Epistles commandeth his deare Disciple Timothie To commend vnto the faithfull that vvhich he heard of him by many vvitnesses and not that only vvhich he should find vvritten in some of his Epistles or in the vvritten Gospell I deny your consequence Paul wils Timothy to commend to the faithfull those things which he had heard of him therefore he deliuered some things which are not written in any part of the Scripture I might adde and those necessary to saluation but the other hath worke enough for you speaker W. P. Obiect II. That Scripture is Scripture is a point to be beleeued but that is a tradition vnwritten and therefore one tradition there is not written that we are to beleeue Answ. That the bookes of the olde and new Testament are Scripture it is to bee gathered and beleeued not vpon bare tradition but from the very bookes themselues on this manner Let a mā that is indued with the spirit of discerning reade the seuerall bookes withall let him consider the professed authour thereof which is God himselfe and the matter therein contained which is a most diuine and absolute truth full of pietie the manner and forme of speech which is full of maiestie in the simplicity of words The end whereat they wholy aime which is the honor and glory of God alone c. and he shal be resolued that scripture is scripture euen by the Scripture it selfe Yea and by this meanes hee may discerne any part of Scripture from the writings of men whatsoeuer Thus then Scripture prooues it selfe to be Scripture and yet wee despise not the vniuersal consent or tradition of the Church in this case which though it doe not perswade the conscience yet is it a notable inducement to mooue vs to reuerence and regard the writings of the Prophets and Apostles It will be said where is it written that Scripture is Scripture I answere not in any one particular place or booke of scripture but in euerie line and page of the whole Bible to him that can read with the spirit of discerning and can discerne the voice of the true Pastour as the sheepe of Christ can doe speaker D. B. P. The second Argument for Traditions is this to beleeue that there be so many bookes of holy Scripture and no more and that those be they vvhich are commonly taken so to be is very necessary to saluation novv this is not to be found vvritten in any place of holy Scripture but is receiued only by Tradition vvherefore it is necessary to saluation to beleeue some Tradition speaker A. W. You propound not Master Perkins reason but frame one of your owne To which I answer that is called in this question necessarie to saluation without the beleefe where of a man cannot be saued but the knowledge of the number of the bookes of Scripture and what they be is not so necessarie but that without it a man may attaine to saluation Yea who doubts that he may be saued which knowes not that there are any bookes of scripture at all so that by the preaching of the word he beleeues truly in Iesus Christ And if those two points be absolutely necessarie what shall we thinke of them that haue doubted of some parts of Scripture as the Epistles to the Hebrews and that of Iames Damascen added one to the number your Papists many speaker D. B. P. M. Perkins ansvvereth that the bookes of the Old and Nevv Testament be Scripture is not beleeued on bare Tradition but by the bookes themselues on this manner Let the man vvho is indued vvith the spirit of discerning reade the bookes and consider first the Author of them vvho is God then the matter contained vvhich is diuine the manner of speech vvhich is full of maiestie in simple vvords Lastly the end aymed at vvhich is Gods honor and by this meanes he shall discerne any part of Scripture from the vvritings of men vvhatsoeuer speaker A. W. Reply A vvise and deepe obseruation I vvarrant you and vvell vvorthie a graue Author Let vs examine it briefly first he vvill haue his man endued vvith the spirit of discerning Who shall endue him vvith the spirit M. Perkins seemeth to say that euery Sheepe of Christ hath his spirit But S. Paul teacheth plainly the contrary that some certaine only haue the iudgement to discerne And touching this matter of discerning vvhich books are Canonical vvhich are not Not the learnedst in the Primitiue Church vvould take vpon him to discerne vvhich they were three hundred yeares after Christ was left vndefined by the best learned whether the Catholike Epistles of S. Iames and Iude the second of S. Peter the second and third of S. Iohn and his Apocalyps were Canonicall or no as is confessed on all parts hath then euery Christian this spirit of discerning when the best Christians wanted it Who more profound more skilfull to discerne than that subtile and sharpe Doctor S. Augustine and yet the Protestants will not allow him the true spirit of discerning which bookes be Canonicall For he in diuers places of his workes holdeth the bookes of the Machabees to be Canonicall Scriptures and expresly proueth the booke of Wisdome so to be * And yet our Protestants will not admit them See therefore how foolish and vaine his first rule is Come to the second Master Perkins denies the assumption of the contract syllogisme propounded by himselfe affirming that the scripture is to be beleeued to be scripture vpon bare tradition If you will refute him you must prooue that assumption till that be done his answere must stand for sufficient howsoeuer that he addes for the confirmation of it be true or false But let vs examin that he brings First he saith a man must haue the spirit of discerning to which you knowing not what to answere tell vs that Master Perkins seemes to say that euery Sheepe of Christ hath his spirit If he did say so plainely he saith no more then our Sauiour himselfe doth and his Apostle Paul But he doth not once glaunce at that point in any part of his answere yet you refute that but slenderly for the Apostle speakes of an extraordinarie gift bestowed vpon some men not denying this generall abilitie which all true Christians haue in some measure neither doth the Apostle speake of discerning doctrine but spirits that is saith your glosse and Lombard Thomas and Caietan that he may discerne that he heares with what spirit it is spoken with a good spirit or with a bad By
very sufficiently though euery man cannot reade his disputation because it is latine but for the matter in hand concerning traditions it falls not into this question to be disputed what is scripture and what is not For it is presupposed that the Scriptures are the word of God and thereupon this doubt ariseth whether the word of God conteine all things necessarie to saluation or no. If that be doubted of it is idle and absurd to enquire whether there be besides that another word of God diuers from it though not contrarie which is not written but only as men haue now and then set downe some part of it in their writings so then leauing this point let vs come to those which follow speaker W. P. Obiect III. Some bookes of the canon of the Scripture are lost as the booke of the warres of God Num. 21. 14. The booke of the iust Iosu. 10. 13. the bookes of Chronicles of the Kinges of Israel and Iuda 1. King 14. 19. the bookes of certaine Prophets Nathan Gad Iddo Ahiah and Semiah and therfore the matter of these bookes must come to vs by tradition Answ. Though it be graunted that some bookes of Canonicall Scripture bee lost yet the Scripture still remaines sufficient because the matter of those bookes so farforth as it was necessarie to saluation is contained in these bookes of Scripture that are now extant speaker D. B. P. The two next arguments for Traditions be not well propounded by M. Perkins The third is to be framed thus Either all the bookes of holy Scripture conteine all needfull doctrine to saluation or some certaine of them without the rest not some of them without the rest for then the other should be superfluous which no man holdeth therfore all the bookes of holy Scripture put together do containe all necessary instruction Now then the argument followeth but some of those bookes of holy Scripture haue been loâ—t therefore some points of necessary doctrine contained in them are not extant in the written Word and consequently to be learned by Tradition M. Perkins answereth First supposing some of the bookes to be lost that all needfull doctrine which was in them is in some of the others preserued But why did he not solue the Argument proposed were then those bookes superfluous Doth the holy Ghost set men to pen needlesse discourses which this answere supposeth speaker A. W. Because you thinke the reason makes for your aduantage as you haue framed it your selfe I will follow your steps and leaue his argument as you do That I may answere orderly I deny your assumption All things necessarie to saluation are conteined in some certaine bookes of the scripture so that although the rest were wanting we should haue sufficient to saluation for the matter To your reason I say farther that the consequence is naught if some certaine are sufficient to saluation the rest are superfluous for first it cannot be superfluous to haue any booke of Gods word kept for the vse of the Church though the matter of it be in some other Secondly if your consequence be good it is also superfluous to haue the same psalme or story recorded in two places of the scripture especially the later But to say so were to condemne the holy ghost of hauing taken superfluous paines to no purpose which were blasphemie I prooue it by these particulars for example Psal. 18. is in the booke of Psalmes and in the second booke of Samuell The history of Ezechiah is 2. Reg. 29. and so forward and Isai 36. 37. 38. The like I might bring out of the bookes of Kings and Chronicles Thirdly though the matter be all fully and perfectly in certaine bookes yet euery point is not so plaine in one booke as in another and therefore it is not superfluous to haue all these bookes though all matter necessarie to saluation be comprised in some few of them Fourthly the purpose of the holy ghost in penning the scriptures was not only to teach matters necessarie to saluation but to set forth the glorie of God in his prouidence iustice mercie wisdome and such like to afford vs examples of diuers kinds of vertues to exhort vs to faith and good works and in a word to prouide for Gods glorie by vs heere as well as for our glorifying by him in heauen to which there is no booke nor sentence of scripture but serues more or lesse and therefore no booke of it can be thought supersluous though the necessarie matters belonging to saluation be conteined in certaine of them very sufficiently speaker W. P. Againe I take it to bee a truth though some thinke otherwise that no part of the Canon is lost for Paul saith Whatsoeuer things were written aforetime were written for our learning that wee through patience and comfort of the Scriptures c. Rom. 15. 4. where he takes it for granted that the whole Canon of holie Scripture was then extant For if he had thought that some bookes of Scripture had beene lost hee would haue said whatsoeuer was written and is now extant was written for our learning and comfort For bookes that are lost serue neither for learning nor comfort Againe to hold that any bookes of Scripture should be lost calls into question Gods prouidence and the fidelitie of the Church who hath the bookes of God in keeping and is therfore called the pillar and ground of truth And touching the bookes before mentioned I answere thus The booke of the warres of God Num. 21. 14. might bee some short bill or narration of thinges done among the Israelites which in the daies of Moses went from hand to hand For sometime a booke in Scripture signifieth a roule or Catalogue as the first chapter of Matthew which containeth the genealogie of our Sauiour Christ is called the booke of the generation of Iesus Christ. Againe the booke of the iust and the books of Chronicles which are said to be lost were but as the Chronicles of England are with vs euen politicke records of the acts and euents of things in the kingdome of Iuda and Israel out of which the Prophets gathered things necessarie to be knowne and placed them in holy Scripture As for the bookes of Iddo Ahiah Semiah Gad and Nathan they are contained in the bookes of the Kinges and Chronicles and in the bookes of Samuel which were not written by him alone but by sundrie Prophets 1. Chro. 29. 29. as also was the booke of Iudges As for the bookes of Salomon which are lost they did not concerne religion and matters of saluation but were concerning matters of Philosophie and such like things speaker D. B. P. Therefore he giues a second more shamefull that none be perished which is most contrarie vnto the plaine Scriptures as S. Iohn Chrysostome proueth where he hath these expresse words That many of the Propheticall bookes are lost may be proued out of the historie of Paralâ—pomeneon which they translate Chronicles
Churches is of great authoritie speaker A. W. Origen teacheth that the Church receiued from the Apostles by Tradition to baptize Infants Origen calles the tradition of the Apostles their practise of baptizing infants which hath sufficient ground of scripture though not in expresse words as your Church also holds and as Origen himselfe acknowledgeth by shewing the reason that moued the Apostles to baptise them as hee conceiues though indeede there is also other better warrant for it speaker A. W. Athanasius saith VVe haue proued this sentence to haue been deliuered from hand to hand by Fathers to Fathers but yee O new Iewes and sonnes of Caiphas vvhat Auncestors can yee shevv of your opinion speaker A. W. Where reason failed the Arians on their side and could not moue them in behalfe of the Church Athanasius addes this as a further proofe for their confutation that the doctrine of Christ being one with his Father had been held from time to time in the Church whereas they had no consent of antiquitie for their opinion Yet had he himselfe prooued the point by many certaine reasons out of the Scripture and brought this argument from the authoritie of men for confutation of their false assertion that the former Diuines were not of that iudgement This Athanasius refuteth by the testimonies of Theognostus Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria whom he calles eloquent and one other Dionysius Bishop of Rome and Origen whom he termes painfull S. Basil hath these words VVe haue the doctrine that is kept and preached in the Church partly vvritten and part vve haue receiued by Tradition of the Apostles in mysterie both vvhich be of the same force to godlines and no man opposeth against these vvho hath at the least but meane experience of the Lavves of the Church See Gregory Nazianzen Orat. 1. in Iulian If you will giue me leaue I will defend Basils speech by that which may be gathered out of him viz. that hee holds them things to be by tradition which are not exprest in the Scriptures My ground for this exposition are these words of his Out of what Scripture haue we saith Basil the very speaker D. B. P. S. Augustine some thousand two hundred yeares agoe recordeth the very forme of arguing which the Protestants vse now-a-daies in the person of Maximinus an Arrian in his first booke against him in the beginning Jf thou shalt saith this Heretike bring any thing out of the Scriptures vvhich is common to all vve must needs heare thee but these vvords vvhich are vvithout the Scriptures are in no sort to be receiued of vs when as the Lord himselfe hath admonished vs and said in vaine do they vvorship me teaching commaundements and precepts of men How S. Augustine opposed against them vnwritten Traditions hath been afore declared The like doth S. Bernard asfirme of certaine Heretikes of his time called Apostolici So that most truly it may be concluded that euen as we Catholikes haue learned of the Apostles and auncient Fathers our noble progenitors to stand fast and hold the Traditions which we haue receiued by word of mouth aswell as that which is written Euen so the Protestants haue receiued as it were from hand to hand of their ignoble predecessors old condemned Heretikes to reiect all traditions and to she vnto the only Scriptures speaker A. W. The Heretike Maximinus asked nothing but reason of Austin if he stood vpon the matter and not vpon the termes neither doth Austin find fault with this condition nor could he in reason because as I answered before himselfe appeales to that kind of triall in that very disputation Neither must I saith Austin to Maximinus alleage the Councell of Nice in preiudice of the matter nor you the Councell of Ariminum neither am I tyed with the authoritie of this Councell nor you with the authoritie of that let matter striue with matter 〈◊〉 with cause reason with reason by the authoritie of the scriptures which are not proper to you or me but common to vs both But will you heare him speake more like Maximinus Reade me this saith Austin out of a Prophet reade it out of a Psalme recite it out of the Lawe recite it out of the Gospell recite it out of an Apostle Thence recite I the Church disperst ouer the whole world and our Lord saying my sheepe heare my voyce And a little after away with mens papers let the voyce of God sound And in another place away with our papers let Gods bookes come forth heare Christ heare the truth speaking If these speeches be hereticall we confesse our selues to be Heretikes but so that we haue Austin on our side for an Arch-Heretike Bernard speakes of the Hereticks called Apostolicks not in his 62. but in his 66. sermon vpon the Canticles where he saith neuer a word of their reiecting Traditions No more hath Austin nor Epiphanius where they write of them And if they did reiect traditions it was because they would establish their owne hereticall bookes viz. the Acts of Thomas and Andrew and the gospell of the Egyptians which to say the truth are to be counted traditions because they haue no warrant of the scripture nor are any part of the Canon It were easie for me to turne your owne sentence against you and as all men may see with good reason but it shall suffice me that I haue refuted your slaunders and shewes with sound proofe of arguments and authoritie I consider loosers must haue leaue to speake The eighth point Of Vowes Our consent speaker W. P. Touching vowes this must bee knowne that wee do not condemne them altogether but onely labour to restore the purity of doctrine touching this point which by the Church of Rome from time to time hath beene corrupted and defaced We hold therefore that a vow is a promise made to God touching some duties to be performed vnto him and it is twofold generall or speciall The generall vow is that which concernes all beleeuers and it is made in the couenant both of the law and of the Gospell I will here onely speake of the vow which is made in the couenant of the Gospell in which there be two actions one of God the other of man God in mercy on his part promiseth to men the remission of sinnes and life euerlasting and man againe for his part promiseth to beleeue in Christ and to obey God in all his commaundements All men euer made this vow vnto God as the Iewes in circumcision which also they renewed so often as they receiued the Passeouer and in the newe Testament all that are baptized doe the like And in baptisme this vow is called the stipulation of a good conscience whereby wee purpose to renounce our selues to beleeue in Christ and to bring forth the fruites of true repentance and it ought to be renued so oft as wee are partakers of the supper of the Lord.
This vowe is necessarie and must bee kept as a part of the true worship of God because it is a promise wherein wee vowe to performe all duties commaunded of God either in the law or in the Gospell It may be demaunded considering wee are bound to obedience how wee binde our selues in baptisme thereto Answ. Though we be alreadie bound partly by nature and partly by the written word yet may wee renew the same bond in a vowe and he that is bound may further binde himselfe so it be for this end to helpe his dulnes for want of zeale and to make himselfe more forward in duties of loue to men and the worship of God to this end Dauid sware to keepe the law of God Psal. 119. 116. though he were bound vnto it by nature and by the written law it selfe The speciall vowe is that which doth not reach to the person of al beleeuers but onely concernes some speciall men vpon some speciall occasions And this kind of vow is twofold The first is the vow of a ceremonial duty in the way of seruice to God and it was in practise in the Church of the Iewes vnder the old Testament examples hereof are two especially the first was the vowe of the Nazarites whereto no kind of men were bound by Gods commaundement but they bound thēselues God only prescribing the maner and order of keeping the same with rites pertaining thereto as abstinence from wine the not cutting of their haire and such like The second example is of the Iewes when of their owne accords they vowed to giue God house or land sheepe or oxen or any like things for the maintenance of the legall worship and of this also God prescribeth certaine rules Leuit. 27. Now these vowes were part of the Iewish pedagogie or ceremoniall law wherein God trained vp the Iewes in the old testament and beeing obserued of them they were parts of Gods worship but now vnder the Gospell they are not beeing all abolished with the ceremoniall law to which Christ put an ende at his death vpon the crosse It is true Paul made a vowe and since kept the same in in the time of the new Testament Act. 18. yet not as a part of Gods worship but as a thing indifferent for the time wherein he only condescended to the weakenes of the Iewes that by this meanes he might bring them the better vnto Christ. And whereas Christ is called a Nazarite Matth. 2. 23. we may not thinke he was of that very order because he did not abstaine from wine but he was so tearmed because hee was the veritie and accomplishment of this order For by it was signified that Gods Church was a peculiar people seuered or chosen out of the world and that Christ in respect of holines was also separated from all sinners And the words in Saint Matthew he shall be called a Nazarite are borrowed from the booke of Iudges cap. 13. where they are properly spoken of Sampson and in type or figure of Christ. For as Sampson saued Israel by his death so did Christ saue his Church And as Sampson killed his enemies more by death then by life so did Christ. It is plaine therefore that this kind of vowe bindeth not vs for there are no more ceremonies to bee kept vnder the Gospell for partes of Gods worship but the outwarde rites of Baptisme and the Lords Supper Vovves concerning meates and drinkes attire touching tasting times place daies were proper to the Iewes The second kinde of speciall vowe is that whereby a man promiseth freely to performe some outward and bodily exercise for some good ende and this vow also if it be made accordingly is lawfull and belongs both to the Church of the olde and new Testament In the olde wee haue the example of the Rekabites Ier. 35. who by the appointment of Ionadab their father abstained from strong drinke and wine from planting vineyardes and orchardes whereby Ionadab intended onely to breake them before hand and to acquaint them with their future condition and state that they should be strangers in a forraine land that so they might prepare themselues to indure hardnes in the time to come And now in the new testament wee haue warrant in like manner to vowe as if a man by drinking of wine or strong drinke finde himselfe prone to drunkennes he may vowe with himselfe to drinke no more wine nor strong drinke for so long time as hee feeles the drinking thereof will stirre vp his infirmitie and minister occasion of sinning Of this kind also are the vowes in which we purpose and promise to God to keepe set times of fasting to taske our selues in prayer and reading of holy Scriptures and to giue set almes for special causes knowne to our selues and to doe sundrie like duties And that wee be not deceiued in making such vowes certaine rules must be remembred I. that the vowe be agreeable to Gods will and word for if it be otherwise the making as also the keeping thereof is sinne Vowes must not bee the bondes of iniquitie II. It must so be made that it may stand with Christian libertie For wee may not make such things necessary in conscience which God hath made free Now Christian liberty allowes vnto vs the free vse of all thinges indifferent so it be out of the case of offence Hence it followes that vowes must be made and keept or not keept so farreforth as in conscience they may stand or not stande with our libertie purchased by Christ. III. The vowe must be made with consent of superiors if we be vnder gouernment Thus among the Iewes the vowe of a daughter might not stand vnlesse the consent of Parents came thereunto IV. It must bee in the power and abilitie of the maker thereof to do or not to doe A vowe made of a thing impossible is no vowe V. It must be agreeable to the calling of him that maketh it that is both to his generall calling as he is a Christian and to that particular calling wherein he liueth If it bee against either one or both it is vnlawfull VI. It must be made with deliberation no better things performed then God by his lawe hath bound vs to else man could deuise better obedience or more acceptable seruice to God then he himselfe hath appointed If by better good you meane be a greater measure of obedience then is commonly performed I doubt whether any man can do more then the law of God hath required of him which is the rule of perfect obedience If you vnderstand the meanes of stirring vp our selues to the doing of our dutie to God Master Perkins acknowledgeth that and compriseth it in the later part though he do not expresse it Secondly you say that it must proceede from our owne free choise and libertie The promise doubtlesse must haue our owne will for the ground of it and so much the word imports but the good must be a dutie commanded or at
for this fable writ 800. yeeres after Christ and setteth it downe but as a report as you might haue seene if you had looked in him which by the wrong quotation it should seeme you did not Eusebius who writ the Ecclesiasticall historie 400. yeeres before Damascen and set downe that matter out of the record of Abgarus owne countrey hath not one word of any such Image Yea in his epistle to the Empresse Constantine Augusta who writ to him for an image of Christ he sheweth that her desire is not warrantable and discourses that matter at large Euagrius another of your authors about sixe hundred yeeres after Christ telleth such a storie as you mention not vpō his own but Procopius credit who liued in the same age with him and writ that miracle by the report of I know not what old men It is enough to discredit it that Eusebius maketh no mentiō of any such Image though he writ the historie of that matter betwixt our Sauiour and Abgarus at large and that as I said before out of the records of Edessa where Abgarus ruled If these former authors cannot procure credit to that storie what should Simeon Metaphrastes doe who came some hundreds of yeeres after Procopius and Euagrius But of this and like miracles if they were indeed wrought we heard Biels iudgment before speaker D. B. P. The third Image representing our blessed Sauiour is said to haue bin made by Nicodemus his secret Disciple vvhich aftervvard vvas taken by the Ievves and in despight of Christ vvas crucified and to their confusion much blood issued out of it This history is in the ◅orke of S. Athanasius that sound piller of the Church intituled De passione imaginis and is either his or some other very auncient and graue vvriters For it is related in the seauenth generall councell Act. 4. speaker A. W. There is no likelihood that Athanasius would record any such storie his other writings are so directly against all Idolatrie But which of the two copies will ye ascribe to Athanasius For hee that reades them aduisedly will rather take them for two seuerall mens doings than thinke either of them to be written by Athanasius And therefore Nanius a great Doctor of Louaine makes no bones to place it amongst those writings which are none of Athanasiuses neither indeed was it euer knowne till that idolatrous second Councill of Nice eight hundred yeeres after Christ very neere Yea the storie it selfe seemes to haue bin yonger than Athanasius almost foure hundred yeeres For Sigibort affirmes it happened in the yeere 775 the historie of Lombardie in the yeere 750. speaker A. W. That S. Luke the Euangell drew the Picture of our blessed Ladie is registred by Theodorus Lector 1000. yeeres ago and Metaphrasies In vita Lucae and Nicephorus Those fragments of Theodorus gathering deserue no such credit that a thing done more than fiue hundred yeres before he was borne and recorded by none of his ancients that are knowne should vpon his bare word be held for true But let vs grant as much as you desire that S. Luke drew the Virgin Maries counterfeit What of that will it follow that therefore it is fit or lawfull to make Images now in this certaine daunger of Idolatrie when no man knowes any more of the Virgins fauour and feature than he doth of our great Grandmother Euahs It should seeme Nicephorus did not giue any great credit to the storie though Theodorus had written it long before him For he brings it in with a suspitious preface It is said And I marueile if you reade it in Nicephorus your selfe that you adde not the rest of his report in that place of the Euangelist Lukes picturing our Sauiour also and the chiefe of his Apostles Simeon Metaphrastes is too young to witnesse a matter done so many yeeres before his birth speaker D. B. P. Tertullian an author of the second hundreth yeere after Christ hath left writen that the Image of Christ in shape of a shepheard carrying a sheep on his shoulders was ingrauen vpon the holy Chalices vsed in the Church speaker A. W. Tertullian hath left this written that the image of a Shepheard carrying a sheepe was engrauen vpon the Cups or Chalices but he neuer giues any signification of the holinesse of those Cups nor approbation of the picture further than to make them serue his purpose to shew that by the sheep all kind of men are signified as well Heathen as Christians And surely he that reades his booke of Idolatrie and considers that hee makes Idols and Images all one for their nature will not thinke him any fauourer of Images speaker D. B. P. In the time of S. Chrysostom they were so common that they were carried in rings drawen on cups painted in Chambers See Theodoret. Jn histor relig in vita Simeonis Stelitae Aug. lib. 2. de cons. Euang. cap. 10. And the 7. Synod Act. 4. This briefly of Images in generall Now a word or two of the signe of the Crosse which our Protestants haue banished from all their followers Neuerthelesse it cannot be denied to haue been in most frequent vse among the best Christians of the Primitiue Church speaker A. W. We also as they had in Chrysostomes time and in all times and places where the Art of grauing and painting was vsed haue Images in Rings Cups Chambers But what Images or to what purpose you neither tell vs what they were nor quote the place that wee may looke and examine the matter Theodoret speakes not of Images in Rings Cups or Chambers but onely tels of a report that the people of Rome did set vp little Images of Simeon in all their shopdoores and walking places or galleries But Artificers are no fit iudges in such controuersies and yet it is but a report that they did so Austin iesting at them who say that our Sauiour Christ writ certaine books to his Apostles Peter and Paul wherein the art whereby he wrought his miracles was contained I belecue saith he they hit vpon these two Apostles as the men to whom he writ because they had seene him and them in many places painted together But what approbation giues he to the vse of these pictures So saith he they deserue to erre that seeke Christ and his Apostles not in the holy books but vpon painted walles As for that idolatrous Synod it is ridiculous to vrge the authoritie of that against vs when you know wee wholy disclaime it and pleade against it from the Councill of Franckford and the book of Charlemaigne the Emperour in both which it was refuted and condemned If you bring no better proofe for the Crosse in particular than you haue for mages in generall I doubt me the Protestants will not repeale the act of banishment made against it whatsoeuer you talke of the most frequent vse thereof
to the most reuerend letters of Adrian most holy Pope of old Rome I confesse and hold Images to be holy and worthy of worship neuer laying them away but adoring them perfectly them that confesse otherwise I accursse The othet most holy Bishops and venerable Monkes cried out And we all together receiue and embrace and adore Images with very great honour Stauratius Bishop of Chalcedon said I receiue embrace and honour Images as being the pledges of my saluation Peter Bishop of Nichor said I receiue venerable Images and adore them and will alwaies teach the doctrine that I may one day giue account to God our Iudge in the world to come Iohn the most religious Priest Lieue-tenant of the Apostolike thrones said Therefore an Image is greater then prayer And this is come to passe by the prouidence of God for ignorant mens sakes The same man counteth the denying of worship to Images the worst of all heresies as that which ouerthrowes the gouernment of our Sauiours house I forbeare to set downe their reasons which are taken from Tradition miracles and some places of Scripture so ridiculously applied that it is little better then blasphemie to make the holy Ghost president of so Idolatrous and sottish a Councell Constantine hauing subscribed to this Councell by his mothers perswasion and example in his none-age after he came to yeeres of discretion and his owne gouernment by the aduise of diuers learned men repealed the decrees of it concerning Images and ere long after tooke the whole sway of the Empire from his mother who had vsurped it as protectrix into his owne hands which dealing of his did incense the ambitious and idolatrous woman that shee caused certaine traitours first to plucke out his eyes and afterward to murder him yea so great was her malice and feare that shee ceased not till shee had made his sonnes her grand-childrens or neuewes eyes to be pulled out also such an author and patrones had that Idolatrous and wicked Councell the chiefe foundation of Popish Images Such as it was notwithstanding the decrees of it were sent by Pope Adrian the first to the Emperour Charlemaine that he might allow of them But he held another Councell at Franckfort wherin it was concluded that the second Councell of Nice whereof we haue spoken should not be held either for generall or for the seauenth or for a thing of any worth The decrees of that Councell condemning Images were by this repealed and a book written by expresse commandement of the Councell of Franckfort and published in the name of Charlemaine in which as the Councell of Constantinople is reproued for taking away all vse of Images euen for history and memory so that second Councell of Nice is particularly confuted and condemned The like entertainment found the decrees of that Councell amongst our countri-men here in England as you shall see by the testimony of a Monke that writ 300. yeeres agoe The same yeere saith Mathew of Westminster Charles King of the French-men sent into Britaine a booke of decrees wherin many things were found contrary to the true faith and that especially that it was determined by the ioynt consent of almost all the Doctors of the East That Images are to be adored which the Catholike Church vtterly detests Against this Albinus writ an Epistle wonderfully endited according to the authority of the holy Scriptures â—â—d carried together with that booke of decrees to the King of Frâ—…ce in the name of the Bishops and Nobles Yet was not this Councell of Franckfort nor the Epistle written by Albinus nor the booke set out in Charlemaines name of sufficient strength to stop the course of Idolatry so violent it is where it finds any way made for it whereupon Claudius Bishop of Turin hauing bin brought vp and preferred by Charlemaine opposed himselfe by writing afresh against it and as Ionas Bishop of Orleans saith who writ against him proceeded farther to cast them out of all the Churches of his dioces This opinion and fact of his Ionas writ against yet so as that he wholy agreed with him about the vnlawfulnes of adoring Images against the second Councell of Nice But in the East the quarrels about Images were more hot and dangerous which mooued the Emperours Michaell and Theophilus to send their Embassadors into France to the Emperour Lewis the curteous sonne of Charlemaine about the yeare 823 to signifie to him that the superstitious abuse of Images in their dominions had made them assemble a Councell about the matter in which it was decreed that they should not be worshipped with incense lights kneeling prayers songs and seruice before them all which notwithstanding that some of their clergy refusing to yeeld obedience had withdrawne themselues to the Pope of old Rome complaining to him and slandering the East Church that they therefore had sent their Ambassadors both to him and to the Pope for the clearing of themselues of all such false imputations and that they might vnderstand what the iudgement of their Churches was in those points Hereupon Lewis the Emperour called a nationall Councel at Paris the yere following 824. wherein the conclusion was as in the Councell of Franckfort against both pulling downe and worshipping of Images as appeareth by an Epistle sent from the said Synode to Lewis and Lotharius by two Bishops Italitgarius and Flamarius and according thereunto answere was returned to the Emperours Michaell and Theophilus Thus much I thought good to set downe as briefely as I could hee that would reade of these matters more at large may finde enough to content him in that excellent treatise of the Lord Plessy against the Masse in the second booke the second third and fourth Chapters The iudgement of all these matters I leaue to all men whatsoeuer that will vouchsafe to waigh things by the Ballance of the Sanctuary with the hand of true reason Others that had rather beleeue what is told them then try that they beleeue I commit and commend to the mercy of God Whom I beseech according to his good pleasure to enlighten our hearts and incline our affections euery day more and more that we may discerne and acknowledge his most holy truth to his glory the good of his Church and our owne euerlasting saluation through his Sonne Iesus Christ. To whom with the Father and holy Spirit one God immortall inuisible and only wise be all glorie power obedience and thanksgiuing for euer and euer Amen FINIS Errata Pag. 11. lin 1. read in our time p. ead l. 29. r. yes p. 17. l. 11. r. were not dedicated p. 36. l. 22. r. out p. 44. l. 10. in the margin r. Popes breast p. 45 l. 21. r. and that p. 57. l. 17. r. c. p. ead l. 35. r. them Cardinall p. 68. lin 18. r. is moued p. cad l. 22. dele as p. 87. l. 4. in the margin r.
to be abolished speaker A. W. Against which of the former conclusions is the practise of the Magistrate that you should denie that to be our doctrine because of this Not against the first nor the second For both we our selues vse them for ornament and remembrance and all your Papists you speake of to religious purposes Not against the third For you haue no image that God hath appointed to bee made much lesse against the fourth which allowes none of your Images It would haue becommed you therefore to forbeare both the accusing of the Magistrate for doing against our doctrine and the condemning of our doctrine as being other than it is For the people though many amongst them iustly mislike crosses because they are by you ordinarily abused to Idolatrie yet I thinke you can bring few examples of any such disorderly course and I am perswaded none at all which the Magistrate hath not corrected speaker A. W. O men blinded vvith spite against true deuotion We Catholikes are a thousand times morezealous of the true honor of the liuing God than any Protestants euer vvere or vvill be And that small reuerence vvhich vve yeeld vnto Images is more different from the honor and obedience due vnto Almighty God than the cope of heauen is distant from the center of the earth You zealous of the true honour of the liuing God whose glorie you turne into the likenes of a mortall man and of a pigeon whom you dishonor by stockes and stones whom you crush vp into a baggage wafer cake whom you deuoure and swallow downe into your bellies and cast out into a place not fit to be named There neuer was the like senselesse and barbarous Idolatrie among the Gentiles If some reuerence you giue be small some againe is a degree at the least aboue that as the very words shew But tell me is it small reuerence to giue the same honour to the image which belongs to the partie whose image it is Doe you not worship the images of the Trinitie and of Christ alone with diuine worship Are not you they who maintaine that idolatrous second Councill of Nice in which Constantine Bishop of Constance in Cyprus blasphemously affirmed that he receiued and embraced honourable holy and venerable Images according to that seruice of adoration which he gaue to the consubstantiall and quickning Trinitie But of this afterwards speaker D. B. P. And that these hotter brethren may see vvhat reason M. Perkins had to allovv of the ciuill and historicall vse of Images I thinke it expedient to note here hovv in the purest antiquitie Images vvere made and respected That famous Image of our blessed Sauiour vvhich the vvoman cured of the bloody flâ—xe set vp in Brasse at Caesarea Philippi vpon a Piller of stone is not vnknown vnto any that haue read the Ecclesiasticall History of Eusebius Lib. 7. cap. 14. And how God did approue it by giuing vertue vnto an herbe when it did grow to touch the hem of that Picture to cure all manner of diseases Which Image Eusebius himselfe did see standing vntill his daies which was â—300 yeeres agoe as he there testifieth as also that he saw diuers others namely of Saint Peter and Paul speaker A. W. This goodly statue being most memorable both for antiquitie of it being made our Sauiour yet liuing and for the miracles wrought by that herbe growing at the foot of it Iulian the Apostata for malice against our Sauiour caused to be broken downe and set vp his owne Image in the place of it but his was presently with lightning and thunder from heauen consumed into ashes and our Sauiours by the Christians carried into their Church as witnesseth Sozomenus Eusebius deliuers that storie as a matter of report not knowledge They say that her house is yet to be seene and that admirable monuments of that benefit our Sauiour bestowed vpon her are yet remaining And it is worth the obseruing that Eusebius makes a difference betwixt that which he knew by the Gospell and that which he heard by report Of her healing by our Sauiour Christ he speaketh thus Whom we know by the holy Gospels that our Sauiour freed from her disease Of her dwelling at Caesarea Philippi of her house and that Image with the hearbe and vertue of it They say of the Image also in particular they say this statue hath the image of Iesus Neither doth he affirme that he saw it himselfe It remained also saith Eusebius vntill our times as it may be seene of them that goe into that Citie But I wonder at your confidence that euer you would adde a word of the Images of Peter and Paul Eusebius report and iudgement being in that very place against your opinion of Images Let vs heare himselfe speake It may not seeme strange saith Eusebius presently vpon the former words that such of the Gentiles as were cured by our Sauiour did these things seeing wee haue seene the Images of his Apostles viz. of Paul and Peter and of Christ himselfe kept painted in tables because the ancients by an heathenish custome of the Gentiles were wâ—nt in that manner to honour those whom they counted their preseruers This woman being a Heathen and perhaps conuerted in her ignorance did like the rest of the Heathen The miracle was receiued and deliuered by Eusebius only vpon report of the continuance whereof with the Images enduring he saith nothing But in this case I will onely put you in minde of that which one of your owne schoolmen writes concerning such miracles that they are wrought often times by the operation of Diuels to deceiue the inordinate worshippers of such Images God permitting and the infidelitie of men necessarily requiring it Such might this be if there were any such Sozomen notes in his preface to the storie that this destroying of Iulians image shewed the power of Christ and his anger against Iulian but this prooues not that our Sauiour had any liking of the Image it was Iulians malice as your selfe call it that prouoked our Sauiour not the respect of the Image The latter part you report very craftily as if the Christians had set vp that Image in their Church but Sozomen saith not so onely he telleth vs that when the Gentiles had dragged it to peeces the Christians gathered vp the peeces and laid them vp in their Church where they were kept till the time of his writing speaker D. B. P. Another Picture of our Sauiours visage he himselfe is reported to haue sent vnto Abgarus Prince of Edessa as witnesseth Metaphrastes In vita Constantini Damascen and Euagrius who doth in the same chapter rehearse a notable miracle vvrought by the same Image to deliuer the Tovvne from the sacking of the Persians And in his fift booke and eighteenth chapter recordeth another miracle done by the Image of the blessed Virgin Mary in a prison at Antioch speaker A. W. The chiefe author you alleage