the first working of it upon the Magistrates hath noâ— a design for strengthening their own interest by the Magistracy of the Kingdoms and how have Kingdoms been embroyled for the serving of this designe and whether is not this guilded with the glorious name of Reformation Consid 8. Let it be considered from the severall waies and Formes of proceeding in which the beleevers of severall opinions have gone in these times to support themselves which stands most on a pure Gospel spirituall bottom supported by its own innate â—ongeniall and proper strength clasping about no stones no pillars of the world or humane strength Consid 9. Let it be considered whether the whole cry of the Divines of the other party as in the late Book is not all to the Magistrate Help us Parliament help us City or we are undon the Heresies and Sects will undo us What said Ezra I was ashamed saith he to require of the King an army and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way because we had said the hand of our God is upon all them that seek him Consid 10. Let it be considered whether they whom he cals Hereticks and Schismaticks make it one of their choycest Principles to desire the Magistrate to help their opinions with their prisons fines pillories but rather that they would let them alone to stand and fall by the power or weaknesse of their Gospell principles and that they may have liberty to pray for them pay to them and possesse the Gospell Each opinionst ted briefly respectively to Toleration Let it be considered to what each pretended Heresie will amount to Independency INdependents beleeve that since the Parishes are so generally corrupted the Churches ought to consist of those of them only that professe more purely as they find Scripture Rule and Practice and as the Presbyterians themselves many of them practice in some Ordinances as that of Baptism and Supper giving them only to the purest Beleevers They also beleeve that they ought not be a few Ministers and Elders of the Churches to bring all the Churches and Congregations under their Power and Dominion but rather under under their advice and consultation Quaere Because then they practice to meet more purely and to rule lesse one over another whether is this enough that they should be fined imprisoned banished The Anabaptists THe Anabaptists so called they hold that Beleevers ought only to be baptized and that Baptisme ought to be so for the manner as may set forth Christs Death Buriall and Resurreâ—â—ion by water as the Greek word and Apostles practice seems to imply and some of the ablest Divines both of England and the great Adversaries the Papists themselves deny not and for children they read of none the Apostles Baptized and they see not any Scripture cleere enough to warrant and they therefore forbeare Quaere Because they will not practice then what is not cleere in command and confessed by all to be but in hidden consequence because they baptize as they find the clearest rule and practice and as none can deny but it was the Apostles generall practice to baptez Beleevers therefore whither is this enough that they should be Fined Imprisoned Banished The Seekers SEekers some of them Question only the way of Church and Ordinances as of Baptism c. because they find that the power was at first given to the Apostles with gifts and from them to others and they dare not take it from Antichrist and the Bishops as the Reformed Kingdomes generally take it nor from the Churches because they find no such power begun from the Churches but only of châ—yâ—e of consent not of power not Churches begun before Apostles or Disciples with gifts Quaere Whether then is this enough because they conceive they dare not take Ordinances but from such and in such a manner as was given at first to Fine Imprison or Banish them A Modell or Short Draught of the whole difference betwixt the Divines for the Presbytery and them of the other way respectively to the Magistrate or State drawn from the late Books and practice of both parties in a Petâ—â—nary way They of the Presbytery to the Magistrates or State VVE humbly Petition ye that Herericks and Schismaticks we beleeving all that differ from us to be so may have your power inflicted upon them whether to Fines Imprisonmâ—n or Banishment and upon this condition ye shall have what we can do or preach c. The Independents to the Magistrates or State VVE humbly Petition that ye will not hazzard nor endanger your civill power of the State to helpe our opinions against our Brethren for we are not Infallable nor Apostolicall we see but in part and that ye will not punish any of our Brethren Presbyterials or others for what they beleeve or differ from us in things of outward order in the Gospell and that we may have leave to pray for ye to pay tribute to ye to fight for ye and to worship the Lord among our selves peaceably as we beleeve and to punish us when we disturbe ye by tumults or trouble your peace in our way of worshipping Some Quaeres for the better understanding of M. Edwards last Book called in Latine Gangrena But in English a Book of Scandals against the Honourable Houses of Parliament the Army the Saints and Churches of Christ that differ from him Quaere 1. VVHether this be not a new way and work of Providence to bring forth some Gospel-light to the world by presenting some truth under the name and notion of errours and heresies which can scarâ—e obtaine from the Presse and Pulpit any other way of appearing abroad and if this â—e not to take the wise in their owne craftinesse and to make M. Cranford the Licenser and M. Edwards the Publisher of some such Truths which the world had else never knowne so publikely but under the forme of heresie and from their two pens but under this disguise 2. Whether that Story which M. Edwards tels of Brasteed in Kent where he sayes a woman preaches which is known to my selfe and all in that place to be a meere untruth be not a way to judge of most of his Stories Letters Relations 3. Whether this late Book called Gangrena where there are so many letters writ to the Reverend M. Edwards to the Worthy M. Edwards to the Good M. Edwards to the Father M. Edwards to the Worthy Reverend good M. Edwards with divers other insinuations of his own worth be not a way of seeking glory and praise from men 4. Whether so many Letters as are in the Book called Gangrena where there is not one name subscribed may not be as well written from M. Edwards as to him and whether the Authours of those Letters whose names are suppressed are not afraid to be questioned for their Relations and therefore have either conceived their names themselves or M. Edwaras for them 5. Whether the great reasonings and conflicts which
M. Edwards saith he had in his spirit in the writing of this book and sayes were only carnall conflicts were not rather conflicts with that spirit of God which breathed on him more love and charity to his Brethren then it seems he would receive at that time 6. Whether his accusing the Parliament and Army the one for tolerating as never Christian State or Magistrate were known to doe the other for Antinomianism Independency Familisme Seraphanisme c. be not of high and dangerous insinuation to the people at such a juncture of time and of desperate â—ritation to our Brethren of Scotland and is against the solemne League and Covenant one great Article of it 7. Whether this be a sufficient confutation of my Booke called the Smoake in the Temple to call it a Book of errors as he doth in Pag. 3. Epist and in Pag. 180. where he saith only this is an errour and that is an errour without the least particle of Reason or Scripture to prove it where if meere accusations may passe for crimes I wonder he made his Book so large and rather summed not all up into one grand affirmative viz. This is all heresie and so have spared the Reader much paines and himselfe much paper 8. Whether hath M. Edwards dealt faithfully and ingenuously as became a Brother pretending to so much clearnesse and integrity of spirit and which makes me suspect him in the rest viz. to charge me with positive errours which my Booke can witnesse to the world I writ as exceptions to serve a design of Peace and Reconciliation and not as my opinions 9. Whether the designe which M. Edwards pretends in setting forth his Book viz. to make the blasphemies and errours of the times as he cals them to be detested is not rather a far contrary designe viz. to spread poyson infect many souls who by this shall come to the knowledge of such things as they never heard before having provided no Antidote nor any Answer of Scripture or reason against them but meerly contradictions and ill words it was observed that some books set forth for the discovery of wâ—â—châ—raft made many Wâ—ches and so who knowes how many hereticks he may make by this his pretended designe against them sure either some of the heresies or diseases were so above his care or remedy or he had a counter design to make Hereticks or the wisdome of his designe was turned into folly making Hereticks by writing against them M. Edwards Designes against His Brethren that differ from him Gangrena p. 164. Let us fill all Presses and make all Pulpits ring and so possesse Parliament City and whole Kingdome against Sects Quaere Whether this be not according as the Priests and Elders did about Christs Resurrection saying to the Souldiers say you they stole him away and if any thing come to the Governours eare we will perswade him that is let us cry out they are all Hereticks and Schismaticks and we will perswade the Governours that it is so M. Edwards Book p. 172. Let the Magistrate put out some Declarations declaring they shall be proceeded against as Vagrants and Rogues Quaere Whether is this wisedome like that from above which is first pure then peaceable whether these be such words as the Angell gave who would not give the very Devill himself ill language but The Lord rebuke thee O Satan M. Edwards Book Epist Page 4. When I thinke of c. how many powerfull Sermons you have had preached before you about the Covenant against the Sects the many Petitions and yet how little is done c. God accounts all those Errors Heresies let alone and suffered to be the sins of those who have power Quaere Whether is not this a representing to the world and a publike insinuation that the Parliament are Sermon-sleighters Covenant-breakers hereticall unjust Petition-sleighters and whether this ought not to have been rather represented by him in private papers then thus to arraigne them before the people and to make them vile in the eyes of the world who have exceeded all their Predecessors in being tender of the bloud and sufferings of Gods people and giving the Churches rest for which they have prospered more in the field in victories for this their peace at home then ever before M. Edwards p. 2. Epist to Gangrena You have done worthily against Papists and Prelaies c. but what have you done against other kind of growing evils Heresies Libertines c. Quaere Whether is not this to charge upon the Parliament all those things which he so grosly aggravates to the world as Blasphemies c. and to bury all the Honour of the Good they have done in the Sepulcher of the Evill which he saith they are now in doing M. Edwards Epist Noble Senatours be pleased to pardon the boldnesse I shall take c. not to impute it to my malignity c. I am one who out of choice and of judgement have embarqued my selfe with you Quaere Whether doth it not clearly appeare by this Apology and insinuation of his own worth and good affections that he knew well to what a Crime and Transgression both against Parliament and Piety the Book he had writ would amount to and therefore bespake their just indignation and Censure beforehand with this story of his good affections and imbarquing himself for them Whether did M. Edwards consider the Parliaments Honour Quality Capacity that durst entitle them to the Patronage of such immodest ridiculous Stories and Tales as he brings in his Gangrena An Expostulation with M. Edwards upon his Booke called GANGRAENA SIR THe uncharitable expressions of your Book against those who see not by your Light and write not by your Candle your binding up the Tares with the Wheat together and the precious with the vile your trampling upon your Brethren as the mire in the streets have forced my Spirit into these few Quaeries for Stons sake I cannot hold my peace The Designes of your Book seem to be these 1. A Designe of Provocation to the Magistrate against your Brethren 2. Of Accusatioâ— under the old project of Hereticks and Schismaticks 3. Of Historicall Recreation to the people that they may make themselves sport with the Beleevers that differ from ye as the Philistins with Sampson upon the Stage Can your wounded Brethren make ye good musick Can their failings make ye more innocent Or their sins make ye more spirituall You would have all the Beleevers that are not of your minde banished c. will you who pretend your selfe to be a friend be such an enemy to the State as to cut off like Nerâ— the Tyrants wish so many thousand of their faithfull servants at a blow in such a juncture of time when they need so many Ought ye to work off so many choice ones from this Cause till you have as many more of your way for their places and till as many Battels yeares experiments prove them as gloriously faithfull
will peaceably joyne with them in the Kingdom under that Power and not to trouble the Magistrate further and the other Brethren as peaceably to enjoy their other Divine Right as the Brethren of the Presbyteriall way theirs and all alike under the same Civill Power and neither of them with it and all other Reformed Kingdomes in unity of the Spirit and love to one another Principles destructive to their present Petition extracted from the Inferences 1. The Presbytery now not so distinct in gifts and office but the Magistrate may rule with them THe Eldership and Presbytery in the primitive Churches had a spirit anointing them to such Administrations but now as the anointing is not so nor is the Office pure peculiar and distinct the Magistrates and Parliament have gifts as spirituall as there are any now in the pretended Presbytery and may therfore as well put forth a Power in their Churches or Congregations as they unlesse their Churches Officers and Gifts were more Christs then they are 2. The Magistrate may better rule then the Eldership or present Presbytery The Magistrate is unquestionably a power of God and the present Presbytery are Officers questionable in their Offices Gifts c. Therefore the Magistrate may more lawfully put forth a Power coercive to sin then they 3. Vniformity in the Word of God is the Vniformity of Churchâ—â— They that presse the Covenant for Vniformity so penally as they do make it a snare of compulsion not in the Word of it but in their Interpretation of that Word unity in the Spirit makes up the want of Uniformity in the Letter Kingdoms are to be no more compelled to Vniformity in Laws Ecclesiasticall then in Civill but may walke together as Beleevers so far as they have attained that clause according to the Word of God makes roome for the severall statures of Christ and measures of light in the Covenant and they that agree in that are truly Vniforme for it is the Vniformity with the Word not with one another but so far as we are all alike in that Word which is the very Vniformity of the Kingdom of Christ 4. The Magistrate as they now make him is Ecclesiasticall as well as they They that ascribe a Power to any to compleat and actuate them in their Ministration do acknowledge that very Power by which they are informed to be in those that so informe and compleat them so as the very Petitioning a State for Power and qualification for Eldership and Presbytery doth imply a Presbyteriall and Ecclesiasticall Power in that State and if so the Magistrate may as well govern in that Church as any ruling Officer they have 5. The present Presbytery in mystery both over and under the Magistrate They that are a Magistracy neither over nor under the Presbytery tell me in what spheare or where rule they for over it they are not Commissioners they say are contrary to the Word and under it they are not for their Presbytery is accountable as they say unto â—â— so as they who are so much in the dark with their Government do with Magistracy they know not what and would place it they know not where The Position being a safer way for the Magistrate then the Erastian and how the Presbyteriall Brethren cannot justly exclude him from ruling with them according to the present constitution both of the pretended Church and Presbytery THat the Magistrate or Parliament cannot be excluded from Government in this present Presbytery as the present Assembly would exclude them because this Kingdom of England is not a Church in Gospell-order but a Kingdom of Beleevers in generall and because their present Presbyters and Elders are no true Presbyters of Jesus Christ according to Gospell-order and till both this Nationall Church and Officers be that very Kingdom of Christ and those very Officers of Christ the Magistrate may as lawfully yea more lawfully rule then any other pretended Officer Minister or Elder amongst them for Magistrates have the whole Kingdome of the world allowed them from God for their place of Government And this Kingdom of England being but a Kingdom or world of Beleevers not a Church they may as they are powers of God rule amongst them Jesus Christ being only King and head in that Church or Kingdom which is more his own and the Magistrates Kings for him in that Kingdom which is the worlds or lesse his own so as the Presbyteriall Brethren cannot exclude the Civil power from governing with them according to the unsound constitution of their Church Ministers and Elders nor till they have proved the truth both of their very Church Ministery and Eldership for all Scripture proofes of Eldership and Presbytery is respective to the true Presbytery and Eldership according to Truth not to every pretended Presbytery and Eldership of the Nations so as till the very Constituting Principles of Presbytery be proved â—â—ue no Scripture either alleadged for Presbytery belongs to them nor any other by which they would exclude the Magistrate as from the Church of Christ Conclusion These few things I have writ to draw forth the strength of others in a thing of this Nature which is of high concernment in the things of Gospell-order as any point now abroad for surely it is not a Vniversity a Cambridge or Oxford a Pulpii and Blacke gowne or Cloake makes one a true Minister of Iesus Christ though these are the best things in the composition of some the Mystery of Iniquity hath deceived the world with a False and Artificiall unction for that true one of the Spirit and the Ministery hath beene so cloathed with Art and Habit that if the Apostles should live again and preach in that plainnesse they came they would be as despised for we wonder after the Wise the Scribe and the Disputer of this World FINIS An End of ONE CONTROVERSIE BEING An Answer or Letter to Master Ley's large last BOOKE called LIGHT FOR SMOKE One of the Assembly at WESTMINSTER Which he writ lately against me In which the Summe of his last Booke which relates to the most materiall Passages in it is gathered up and replied to By Iohn Saltmarsh not revolted as Master Ley saith from a Pastorall Calling but departed from the Antichristian Ministery by Bishops and now a Preacher of the Gospell Isa 5. 20. Woe be to them that put darknesse for light Acts 19. 32. Some therefore cried one thing and some another for the Assembly was confused and the most part knew not wherfore they were come together Ver. 41. And when he had spoken this he dismissed the Assembly LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS 1646. THE Law of Nature giving a man leave to speake fairely in his owne just defence and the Law of Grace requiring him to speake zealously in the defence of Truth I thinke it equall that this answer to Mr Ley should be printed April 15. 1646. John Bachiler The LETTER
SIR FOr the Controversie in substance betwixt us I cannot think the Truth I defended so weak as to need a new Treatise to beare it up I see it is otherwise with you who dare not let your former Books stand by themselves without another to support them It is indeed the way of the Popish Schooles to fill the world with Volumes and Tomes and rather to astonish then convince and this is one thing which hath made the world wonder after the Beast There is no end in making many Books How hath Truth been carried out of sight from the Reader in the Labyrinth of Replies and Rejoynders Your selfe gives us an Experement in this Book for how are you puzled to let the Reader know what was yours and what was mine at first and what is yours again and what was mine afterwards and what is yours again in answer to mine and what Truth is after all this I find it to be the wisdom of the Spirit of God to leave the world a sufficiency of Scripture and Truth but not to write all list the world should not contain it And Pilate was not amisse in that What I have written sates he I have written when they desired him to write more So as things being thus I hope I shall write you as much if not more in One Sheet and an halfe as you have writ me in Seveâ—teen for he that writes anything of Truth more properly writes much then he that writes against it though in more Paper The Summe of your Book is this 1. YOur Epistles which are a competent Treatise of themselves and the very Cisterne of your reasoning from whence you fill all the other Pages of your Book 2. The parrs of my Treatise with your Answer or rather much of your former reply which in things of most weight is no refutation but a reference to other Divines who have writ of the like subject c. it seems you have a common stock of learning amongst you or a Argumentative Treasurie to which you referre us with much ease but I cannot take this for good paiment to be put over to another man when you are bound to pay me your selfe I could turne you over thus to as able Divines as you do me to Mr Tho. Goodwyn Mr Burton Mr Iohn Goodwyn Mr Nye Mr Tombes Mr Prâ—â—â— Mr Burrough Mr White Mr Eator Mr Den Mr Knolls c. 3. The Appendix to your Book writ by a Master of Arts whether your friend or your selfe for I know not whom you make the two letters C. D. to stand for who brings in testimonials of your abilities learning piety good carriage worth c. who methinks speaking so much to your praise as he doth stands a little too neere you we should not seek glory one of another our praise should be of God not of men Thus I have contracted you to save you some evill in the multitude of your words now to your matter 1 THat they should counsell me not to cry down the Government 2 That no Presbytery Parochiall c. assumes such power as the Prelaticall 3 That if the question were rightly stated men would be convinced Magistracy and Christian Liberty would be preserved 4 That I should restore such Tythes if unlawfull as I formerly received because the sin till then is not remitted 5 That I would have men beleeve as they list 6 That he was wished rather to a neglect of me then alloud conquest over me 7 That he had rather consute Bellarmine then my new-sprung Notions 8 Because I am against Logick and Formes of Art I am no right Disputant 9 That I am an Ubiquitary in my Beleefe because of the Opinions set down in The Smoake c. 10 That I am an Antinomian and deales with some late Divines as some with Luther 11 That I am unstable 12 That I glory in the quick dispatch of my worke To which Tertullian and some old Poetry and other Authors with a Story of a Noble-man and a Brewer is brought 13 That my Interposition is like to be no delay to the Government 14 That he may be better imployed then in writing and others shall undertake me To the first 1. ARe you in such feares of your Government that you make friends to me to be silent Is it so weak that it may be cryed down To the 2. Is Presbytery because Parochiall Classicall Provinciall lesse Tyrannicall then Episcopall because many rule in that and in this but one or rather not more Tyrannicall because one Tyrant is not so much as many together Evill in a Community is stronger more diffusive then in Vnity To the 3. Is not the Question of the Presbytery yet stated Yea surely What else hath your Assembly and others been doing Is it not a power in your Eldership and Presbytery how little or large soever over the Churches and Congregations Independent upon the Magistrate coercive to all that beleeve not as they beleeve as to Hereticks and Schismaticks And yet men are not convinced nor is Magistracy or Christian liberty so preserved as you say let both the Magistrates and Christians judge who in the mean time you would be Iudges over To the 4. For my restoring of Tythes now unlawfull to me I have done it I have returned to the State my property of a full yeers Arrearage nor did I take Tythes since I was in Kent but the peoples free composition from the first and being even convinced against that too a yeere since I forbore it But take heed how you put forgivenesse of sin upon restitution for that is not only Popery but like the Pope you would sell Pardons only to the rich and none to the poore and you would put more upon Sacrifice then upon Mercy To the 5. Nor would I have men beleeve as they list as you say of me I would only not have men forced to beleeve as others list as you or your Brethren list I would have Faith wrought by the Spirit of God not by the spirits of men who have no Dominion over Faith To the 6. And why do you speak so of a loud Conquest over me Truth is not conquer'd when the man is trampled on It is not your being great can make you a Conqueror no more then your calling by the Bishops a true Presbyter To the 7. And for your desire rather to deale with Bellarmine then me I did not think I had been so formidable an enemie but I will not presume Indeed Bellarmine is a more easie adversary because he opposes the Truth and I though a weake one may be more considerable because Truth defends me rather then I the Truth for I will rather make it my Champion then my selfe a Champion for it And for my new-sprung Notions as you say call Truth Notion or new or what you will you can never call it out of its own nature or essence And Truth is Gods own Notion neither mine nor yours and new
that the cords bruised his shoulders and made them swell as bigg as a penny â—oase and the Warden made him be gagged as if he would teare his jawes Answer THat the graduall subordination is made good by Mr Rutherford c. Is this reasoning or reference And this you have done all along referred us either to your selfe or some other to answer for you That your Presbyteries are not so singular more free convenient more peaceable more Apostolicall more Authorized then other Churches These are good commendations but had halfe so much been proved by the Word your Government had passed before this For that of Sacriledge and usurpation upon God in alienating Tythes never did Prelate no nor Bishop Mountague plead an higher title for tythes What sacriledge and usurpation to deny Tythes Where are you in the Covenant or no is it not a Parliament Ordinance you take them by and will you set up a Divine Right over that now surely they may justly now withdraw their Ordinance for Tythes and leave you to your Divine Right and see what the people will pay you To that of your commending old men and age I reverence age and old men but not the old man in them And for dreames being more excellent then visions It is a curious speculation and enough may be said for both yet if you take Visions more spiritually they are a more glorious way of Revelation then that of dreames but what are these dreames to yours Surely Reformation in bloud or by persecution is but a dream of such as have slept long in Prelacie Why are you so much in the defence of jeasting and so serious in your Scripture proofes for it take heed of strengthening corrupt nature by Scripture God and Eliah saw errors more cleerely then you or I who may assoon laugh at the Scripture it selfe as something beside it And for other Church-Governments not comming under the tryall of Parliament nor comming out by their authority I know not any that would not humbly lay downe their Scripture-order to that honourable Senate and rejoyce that they would take it up to discusse and for not comming out under their authority I know none of the rest so ambitious or troublesome to the Magistrate as to solicite them to compell their order upon all their Brethren and all must be Hereticks and Schismaticks that will not though they cannot beleeve so For Gospell-patterns being as much in the letter as the Legall because written are you such a stranger to the Spirits notion of Letter and Spirit in the New Testament Know you not that the Temple or Legall Worship before was said to be in the Oldnesse of the Letter Know you not that Gospell-patternes are more seen by the Spirit now then before and though both be written and in Letter yet not both equally litterall but the one more glorious in the ministration the other lesse For that of the suffererâ— Mr Prynn Mr Burton Mr Lilburne and Mr Bestwick And Mr Lilbourne written in such capitall Letters of blâ—â—â—d as you justly say and can you name these and call for the power in your hands as you do Can you thus remember Prelates and yet petition to be such Presbyters Can you see these yet bleeding and desire to persecute by such a President of Bloud FOr Salmasius his testimony with the Baptisme in the name of the Lord Iesus Christ and his testimony that the Presbyterâ— is but of humane and positive right not of Divine He is mine and not yours and all youâ— paines and quarrelling and after quotations cannot make him more yours or lesse mine and it is no little disadvantage to you that one so great a Schollar as your whole Assembly affords any hath thus witnessed with the truth which so many Schollars oppose C. D. his Treatise printed with Master Ley's Book in Master Ley's Commendation whether made by himselfe or some other he best knows HIs Title is One of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster And there you might have known of what account he was among his Reverend Brethren He was chosen Chaire man of the Committée of examination of Ministers and of the Committée of Printing and one of the Tryers and one of the Ordainers of Ministers next after the two Doctors Chaire-man I remember not any of the Apostles in such Offices and Titles You might have known him by his Pattern of Piety his Book on the Sabbath by divers Sermons of his â—â— Print his Annotations on the Pentateuch and he hath much more prepared for the Presse then is already printed All which are approved by those most able to judge of iudicious and learned Laboure Give them leave to speak themselves in this point The Greek Anagram made on his name when President of Sion Colledge THE SUN IN SION with Verses If the Sun be there why no more Light there then For his Name you would think it too venerable c. John in the Hebrew signifies Grace and Ley in Spanish the Law With some Letters in his Commendation in pag. 19 20. c. THus I have gathered up all in your Book that concernes you materially and your friend printed on the backside of yours And for other particulars more substantiall your Books and mine are both abroad let them speak for themselves the Readers must now judge in the Spirit what we both write in the Letter for I intend not to puzzle the world with any more of this Controversie Some Truth may be seen and what is more is but you and I. SIR I was unwilling to set your failings before you and the world but since you printed them once over in mistake I thought I might print them over in a cleerer letter that you may see things for Errours which before you took for Truths Conclusion THus I have replyed to your Positions not to your passions nor reproaches in which you are something larger then I had thought becomes an Orthodex Divine And for the dirt you cast in my face I have only wiped it off without casting it back on yours I had rather let it fall in the Channell which best becomes it For your Revilings sleightings and railings if they trouble not your selfe to write the Presse to print and the Reader to read I promise you they trouble not me And though I am much below many yet I am in this above you that I can forgive you by how much he that can pardon is greater then he that offends I thanke you for your ill usage you cannot do that against me which works not for my good for I am learning to blesse them that curse me to pray for them that despightfully use me And truly this advantage I shall make of your taxing me for faults which I have not To taxe my selfe of the many other faults which I have indeed which you and the world see not FINIS REASONS FOR Vnitie Peace and Love WITH AN ANSWER Called Shadows
so exactly now and these knew both the fashion and the time for Building Yet who ought not to hasten the Temple if the Timber be ready and if the Apostles and Prophets be there for a foundation and Iesus Christ for chiefe Corner-ston Ephes 2. Object II. But Vice Heresies and Schisms will grow too fast Answ So they might have done from Iohns first Sermon to Pauls Epistles and the sending of the Spirit but yet you see there was no Government till after setled upon the people of God And if Heresies stir up their Patrons against the State the Magistrate beares not the Sword in vaine And if morall transgressions let the Magistrate be set on in every place to quicken the Statutes and Preachers every where sent forth to publish the Gospell And what if the Prince of Persia withstand for a while Truth is otherwise armed from heaven Though Satan be in the wisdernesse with Corist yet Christ shall conquer It is the Papists and the Prelates Jealousies to keep up their supposed truths by suspecting every thing that appeares for an enemy The Gospell dares walk abroad with boldnesse and simplicity when Traditions of men like melancholy people feare every thing they meet will kill them For the Angell that comes down from heaven hath great power and the earth is lightned with his glory Rev 18. 1. FINIS THE OPENING OF MASTER PRYNNES NEW BOOK CALLED A Vindication OR Light breaking out from a Cloud of Differences or late Controversies Wherein Are Inferences upon the Vindication and Antiquaeres to the Quaeres and by that the way a little cleared to a further Discovery of Truth in a Church-Order by a Conference or Discourse By JOHN SALTMARSH Preacher at Brasteed in Kent Published according to Order LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Sgne of the Black Spread-Eagle at the West-End of S. PAULS 1645. To the Honourable Philip Skippon Major Generall of the Army raised for the King and Parliament under the Command of Sir Thomas Fairfax Generall NOBLE SIR SVpposing you may take the Book called the Vindication by Master Prynne into your hand I desire that this Discourse may be in your other hand as occasion serves If the Lord hath revealed any thing in this Discourse to enlighten the darknesse of this present Controversie it is onely from him who is the Father of Lights who carries on his to a more excellent way till we may with open face behold the Glory of Jesus Christ and be changed from glory to glory Sir The thing I only contend for is that which the Gospel and Spirit cals for Whatsoever things are pure whatsoever things are honest whatsoever things are of good report Sir The ingagement of private respects which are upon me towards you and being likewise a partaker of some labours of yours in the Lord which are abroad as that of Promises c. The best treasure we have in this life hath drawne this from me The Lord who hath wounded you binde you up and lead you on to the glorious Truths for if I mistake not our Controversie is but this in these times some would walke more close with Christ some can be content like Peter to walke at more distance and follow him afar off and to stand warming themselves with the multitude in the Common-Hall And let the Word judge betwixt us which is of best report Sir Yours in the things of Iesus Christ John Saltmarsh But I have many Reasons I shall now acquaint you with if you will have but patience and not upon a Notion or Name of Heresie and Schism shut up your Windows as against a new light Meteor or some Blazing-Star as too many do we are bidden try the spirits and prove all things Friend be not so discourteous to any Notion that is a stranger it is besides the Aposties rule be not saies he forgetfull to entertaine strangers for some have entertained Angels unawares And this is one Reason further till more come we are but comming out of Babylon you and we were but the other day with the vaile of Prelacy upon our hearts and we are but in healing like the blind man and because yet we see men like Trees shall we therefore judge them to be so and not stay till our eyes be opened that we see better P. Have you no better reasons to convince me These I confesse are something and I will think on them C. Yea look with a single eye upon their principles and take them in their own single Positions not as the world Prints them or reports them this is much a wanting in these times you know what was said of the Christians to Paul As for this sect every where it is spoken against And I see no reason why other opinions which have been held by some Author of one opinion should be all charged upon that one for his sake which neither in it selfe nor any just consequence from it can be proved of any right to belong unto it And if there be any Tares with the wheat they are of the enemies sowing as Christ said to make us go by and not reap there where the Wheat is so scant and the Tares so many P. But O methinks if things were setled about the Church once C. Yea but how will you settle F. How As it is agreed on C. Agreed on What have you not heard of the new Book of the Vindication of the foure Questions P. What of that C. Some of the learned for the Presbiteriall way are divided about setling and know not how to settle the great Ordinance of the Lords Supper upon the Kingdom or Nation P. How Any of our judgement divided I will not beleeve that Surely they are not like your Independent Brethrer to crumble into divisions and severall opinions C. Look you now how you are mistaken I tell you again The vindication-Vindication-Book whose Author is as famous and able as your way affords hath writ a large Tractate for mixt Communions or Sacraments against some of that way that are against them P. Beleeve me if it be so I shall be at a stand I thought all of our side that had been for Presbytery had been all of a mind and none had broken out into Factions but they of the other side C. I love not this word Faction on any side yet till we see more I would not misinterpret any willingly You shall heare the reasons on both sides gathered up very narrowly without the passion for I would neither have passion to object nor to confute any thing but meerly Scripture and Reason P. I pray you what are the differences C. A reverend Brother of the Presbyteriall way answers certain Questions of anothers of that way which he it seemes had propounded to the State to be considered on in the setling of things over the Kingdom and some others too in certain Printed Treatises have gone about to confute them so as his Questions which as he professes openly were written only
for the advancement of Reformation were interpreted by those of the same way with him as an enemy of Reformation as an adversary and an obstruction to the worke of Reformation and settlement of Church-Discipline as he saith P. O strange one of them thus censured by their own and by those whose advancement he hath sought so much in opposing himselfe against the new waies of Independency and Separation as he cals them But well how differ they C. He holds in his Book of Vindication divers particulars concerning Church-Discipline and censures and the Administration of the Lords Supper wherein the other Brethren of the Presbyteriall-way differ from him As first He holds there is no precept nor president in Scripture for the suspending of any Member of a Congregation from the Lords Supper who is not at the same time excommunicated from the Church and all other Ordinances as well some of the other hold the contrary or mistake as he saith 2. That Matth. 18. 16 17. If thy Brother trespasse c. is not meant of the Church nor of excommunication nor suspension from the Sacrament which the other hold 3. That 1 Cor. 5. 5. to deliver such a one to Satan is not meant of suspension or excommunication from the Sacrament which the other hold 4. That 1 Cor. 5. 11. with such a one no not to eat is not meant of Spirituall eating which the other hold 5. That Numb 9. 1 10 11. is not meant of excluding any by way of Type from the Sacrament in acts of suspension but of totall putting out from all Ordinances for legall uncleannesles not Spiritual 6. That Judas received the Supper or Sacrament as well as the other Apostles and that the Sop that was given him before he went out was after the Bread was distributed which some of the other deny 7. That the Minister hath fully discharged himselfe if he give warning to unworthy Communicants of the danger and then give it which the other hold not 8. That Ministers may as well refuse to Preach the Word to such unexcommunicated grosse impenitents for feare of partaking in their sin as to administer the Sacrament to them and they heare damnation in the one as well as eat damnation in the other That the Sacrament of the Lords Supper is as well a converting Ordinance as any other being reckoned amongst the Meanes of Grace and so to be administred to any unexcommunicated Member of a Congregation which some of the other deny That they put groundlesse differences betwixt Preaching of the Word and Administration of the Sacraments 9. That the putting out of the Synagogue in John 9. 21 34 35. is no good proofe of excommunication or suspension from the Sacrament 10. That the Authors Scriptures quoted in his fourth Question are not rightly applyed as his opposites say P. And are these the differences fully C. Yea excepting the Proofes on both sides for which I refer you to the Books themselves which all together are large P. But how conclude they C. The Author of the Vindication doth fairly shew them that they contend for what he doth grant them with advantage and yet they quarel with him for denying it as he saith P. Methinks these are strange mistakes one of another and amongst these of our Preshyterial side too C. And he hopes the Parliament will consider and take care that the Ministers like the Bishops formerly may not now be taken up with Ruling and Governing P. But how will some of our Ministers take this C. I know not that but I like well in this but he goes upon one ground more then all the rest P. What is that C. That the very ground upon which divers of the more moderaâ—e and tender in the Presbyteriall way go is the ground of all the growing and spreading of Schism and Separation Anabaptism and other Errours tending to them which yet they beleeve they so much preach against a strange mistake with them as he observes P. If it be so how pittifully are those Ministers mistaken in their own grounds and the best of them too to be so mistaken is the more to be wondered for I count the tenderest of them the best but this is yet a secret to me C. Yea and to them it may seem so too but I shall unfold the mystery of this Vindication-Book if I mistake not the suspending scandalous persons from the Lords Supper and some other thoughts of pertaking in their sins is it seems deemed by this Book Some principles or positions of Separation which if fomented as the Author insinuates may in time subvert the other principles of Presbytery as indeed they may being something inconsistent and of a better and more spirituall nature and I am of his opinion for I would have all of a colour and constitution All light or all darkenesse and beleeve it your principles of a purer way will not long incorporate with any other the Ark and Dagon will not stand together and the way to overthrow the inventions of men is by taking in some principles of the Truth into traditions what hath made the Popish Hierarchy go down Not its own principles of Idolatry Will-worship and Tyranny But when there were some takings in of Reformation-principles as when they would go from Popery to Prelacy Popery fell much in the power of it and so when from Prelacy they went off to Presbytery Prelacy fell and so on If you make any remove from the common principles of this Presbytery into any of the way or parts of the Separation your Presbytery will down too because it takes in some purer principles then as we may gather from the Vindication Booke it will well beare P. But if these be then the common Principles of this Presbyteriall way as he would have it to communicate in Ordinances thus mixedly and to suspect no uncleannesse in any spirituall Communion from persons so communicating though of never so unreformed a life excepting onely some pretended form all flashy apparences of Faith and Repentance put on and off by the Communicants as occasion serves I shall have I thinke no such good thoughts as I had of that way C. But the grounds are yet further laid downe in the Book that unmixt Communions and suspending from the Sacrament are grounds of Schism and that the teaching of these formerly through ignorance or incogitancy are now to be taught and written and preached against P. I perceive then in a word That the maine thing the Vindication-Book drives at is to place Presbytery upon such a mixed uniformity in the partaking of Ordinances that there should be no act of suspension or separation practised in their Church lest the ground of separation get in and they that make conscience to separate or suspend in some particulars it implies they may go on to a further separation till upon more degrees of purity in communicating they go off
to men in Feavers which murdered Thousands but now they see this deadly mistake and corect it So let not this errour creep into Divinity and Divines in denying the cup to such Feaverish Christians burning in the flames of sin and lust Inference Whence we may inferre That there is in the unconverted a spirituall Feaverish thirst after Christ as there is in the sicke after drink But oh Doth the same fountain send forth sweet and bitter waters Are there any such spiritually-feaverish desires in soules meerly carnall and â—â—regenerate Can the burning in the flames of sin and lust breath any such heavenly longings Can there be any desires but sinfull desires after Christ Can any but a soule like Davids pant after the water-brookes Are the flames of sin and lust like that heavenly fire in the bosome which the Prophet speaks on Doe the hearts of any burn within them but when Christ is in their company and when spiritually inflamed by him Are the kindlings of sin like the kindlings upon the Altar Is the fire in the kitchin like the fire in the Temple Are the burnings of hell like the burnings of heaven If not Why are we told of men burning in the flames of sin and lust after Christ The doctrine is not more unwarrantable then the expression is uncomely Vindication Fol. 47. A Peradventure we may receive or doe good by such a particular Ordinance or action is a sufficient encouragement for us to adventure on it in other cases let it be also warrantable in such cares where they have at least a probability a possibility a peradventure it may be and a Who knoweth but it may convert Inference Whence we may inferre That the summe of all the former Arguments now summed up you see will reach no higher then to a Peradventure or to a may be And whether these be such Scripture-grounds or assurances for administrations of the Ordinances of God I appeale to all the world of beleevers who knows that May bees and Peradventures are not to be allowed any place in the practicail obedience of Christians but clear demonstrative solid and certain Maximes or Principles for Whatsoever is not of faith is sin and He that doubteth is damned and Happy is he that condemneth not himselfe in what he doth And who knowes not that what is done upon May bees and Peradventures cannot be done of faith nor perswasion Vindication Fol. 51. That the Presbytery or Classis may order a Suspension from the Sacrament or any other Ordinances provided that this power be claimed by no Divine Right but by Parliamentary Authority and Humane Institution Inference Whereby we may infer That what is not to be warranted in the Word yet if Humane Authority will undertake it it shall not be excepted against by the Vindication But where is there that Authority that will adventure so far to make up any thing in spirituall Administrations that there is no Spirituall nor Scripture-warrant for I am sorry to see the Vindication set the Parliamentary Authority so neer to Humane Invention of whom we are perswaded better things then to take the Patronage of any such thing which is not warrantable by the Word but rather to suspend all then to settle any thing so close to the highest Administrations in the Word which is of meer Humane Invention Nay I will prove this to be the very Maxime and practice of that honourable Senate who have therefore rooted out Episcopacy professed to the most high God in a Covenant against all Will-worship and Traditions of men and therefore let us not roll such a golden ball before Authority to put them out of their way after Christ who have followed him so close hitherto both in their searchings in the Word and in their tendernesse of persecution least they might scourge Christ out of his own Temple and not know it Vindication Fol. 57. The practicall power of godlinesse is generally more evidently visible and the lives of the generality of the people more strict pious lesse scandalous and licentious in our English Congregations where there hath been powerfull preaching without the practice of Excommunication or Suspension from the Sacrament then in the Reformed Churches of France Germany or Scotland Our English Ministers and Protestants generally excell all others notwithstanding their strict Discipline Inference Whence we may inferre That the Vindication though it pretend in the generall or face of it to be for Presbytery yet it is very clear that in aspersing the government of all those Reformed Kingdomes where the practice and power of it hath been it secretly wounds the glory of it in the opinion of the world and though it pull not downe the Government quite yet it weakens the Postes or judgements of men on which it stands I name not here the other Texts that the Vindication hath pull'd out of the building of the Presbyteriall Government for the taking out the Scripture are like the pulling out the nailes and pins from the house and a loosning of the frame This I observe because the Vindication professes so for that Government though I suppose many such friends in time might do as much harme if not more then those of the Separation whom he cals their enemies Surely I do beleeve France Germany Scotland had rather such Books were not writ in their behalfe that opens the evill corruption and grievances of their Government so much But I shall argue further What need such comparing of the mixt Congregations of severall Kingdoms ours and theirs Surely they are all corrupt enough and mixt enough and a Law for all sorts of sinners to communicate as the Vindication would have would not much more referme because it would then be a kind of Church-priveledge to be a sinner or a scandalous person and to be something notoriously wicked Would be a way of enrighting them to Church-Ordinances according to the Principles of Vindication however some faire pretences and Colours are laid on that we should beleeve the contrary But what of all this I beleeve there is another reason why the Government hath brought forth no more power of Godlinesse upon the Kingdoms then the Vinaication observes because neither the Parishes are constituted nor yet the Government according to Gospell-order yet I honour them as Beleevers and Brethren in the Lord according to their light Yet I observe another secret why the preaching of the Word thrives better and reformes more then the Government in these Kingdoms because that the Preaching of the Word is an Ordinance of the Lord and when preached or held forth to ungoldly scandalous and notorious sinners is but according to its right order of Institution so preached the end of the Lord is but fully and clearly served because the Word in the ministery of it is appointed for a converting Ordinance but the Government and Discipline being not instituted as a converting Ordinance primatily but for a people already converted and brought in it cannot be accompanied
their art reason knowledge experience into books and words written to their owne and other generations 9. This Gospell of Iesus Christ places Religion upon a more glorious transcendent way to sute with an infinite God then ever any device of man or reason could invent viz. upon faith upon a beleeving or spirituall perswasion wrought by the same God by which men are carried out into depths of infinitenesse and glory no way measurable nor discernable but by this way of beleeving and there could never have been an engine contrived which could have gone from man into God but this of faith by God himself nor more for the advantage of the glory of a God taking all from the creature employing it wholly upon a God 10. There is more reason in this Gospell or New Testament in the way of Religion which it holds forth by Iesus Christ then ever could be thought on by the reason of man as for instance Each mans internall conscience hath a light or law in it which condemnes or accuseth for murther c. Now if there be accusations against whom is the offence committed but against somthing infinite and what way is there more divinely rationall to apply to the justice of such an infinite being on God offended but by one who is both man and God even Iesus Christ So as the mystery of salvation is such as even reason it self cannot contradict or gainsay though it cannot comprehend to leave the world inexcusable in their unbeliefe because it commands them to beleeve in one whom in reason they cannot deny to be a way proportionable betwixt God and themselve for salvation 11. It carries things in such a rare way of mercy of justice of love of piety and as it is a salvation from God to man so it is a salvation managed by one who is God and Man and every thing belonging to it is accordingly mixed or tempered of Word and Spirit of power divine and outward dispensation or ordinance and all this for man who is of a mixed nature of flesh and spirit Thus things are carried in a way of proportion and sutablenesse so full so sutable and compleat and serviceable as the invention of men could never devise 12. It discovers reason to it self in all its workings and wayes in its purity and corruption in its vertues and vices conscience bearing witnesse to the Laws and Commandements of it it purifies and spiritualizeth reason and brings it into such a way of communion with God as the souls that reade it and are exercised in it seem to be new-borne to receive in another nature an immortall and incorruptible seed 13. It manages all the designe of salvation contrary to nature and the world upon contrary principles dispensations and hands by a Person poore humble and crucified for the good by Ministers and Dispensers meane and contemptible Fisher-men Tradesmen c. yet inspired by graces contrary as selfe-deniall humility love to enemies by conditions contrary as weaknesse affliction poverty suffering dying carrying a treasure a comfort a riches a life a glory under all these 14. It is accompanied by continued or standing miracles though miracles of a more spirituall nature as discovery of the counsels and hearts of men as conversion from sin mortification of sin changing natures from evill to good planting in new dispositions inclinations affections into the soul Now if such charges and conversions were in materiall or sensible things as from water to bloud from water to wine how would it astonish Which in spirituals in more wonderfull though only lesse discernable and not to be so sensibly perceived preserved by its very enemies the Roman cruelty of Emperours and Antichristian Traditions 15. It refers the discovery of all Truth in it self to the Spirit of God which no word but the Word of God would do and will not take in men into glory with it self which miracles do which are done by the hand and ministry of man and the Spirit in this way must needs be a more glorious Interpreter of the Will of God then the meer ministery by man and miracles can be by how much it is of a more spirituall nature and it is more excellent to seek things in the Spirit then in any outward dispensation which as it comes more immediately from God so it comes in more immediately upon men and to take in Truth by sense and sight or miracle is rather to know Christ after the flesh 16. Yet after all the Word it self is the best way to bring in evidence and discovery in its 〈◊〉 half to the souls of those that will come under the power â—peâ—atâ—on and experiments of it under the enlightening convictions impressions of it in the reading hearing and meditating of it These things are written that ye may beleeve And they that are thus exercised are above all miracle and are perswaded enough by it self without the help of an outward work 17. To these I adde the testimonies of the most ancient in witnesse of it Dionysius Areopagita thought to live in the times of the Apostles and not daring to take his Divinity any where but from these Scriptures Irenaeus who was in the yeare 180 affirming the fulnesse of these Gospell-Scriptures and accounted them the Pillar of Truth So Tertullian who lived 1400 years since doth accordingly witnesse to their perfection Origen Athanasius Chrysostome Constantine the Great in the first Nicene-Councell with thousands others all along to our own age 18. The Iewes whose very Testament and condition answers to every Prophesie and Gospel-Scripture 19. The many of those most eminently ancient learned and godly who have shed their bloud in testimony of it 20. The power of God going along with it 21. The Confessions of the most learned in that confesse that the Originall Copies are not corrupted but continued pure One Argument from the Nationall Covenant for Liberty of Conscience yet with all subordinate and just obedience to the State ART I. THe first Branch of the Covenant is That we shall sincerely really and constantly c. endeavour c. the Reformation of Religion in the Kingdoms of England c. in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government according to the Word of God c. ART II. The second Branch of the Covenant That we shall in like manner without respect of persons endeavour the extirpation of Popery c. Superstition Heresie Schism c. and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound Doctrine c. Now from these I argue 1. Each one is personally and individually bound by the Covenant and in his owne proper conscience is obliged to endeavour a Reformation according to the Word of God and so far to the example of the best Reformed Churches as they are agreeable to that Word I hope no further Now who shall be the Iudge and Interpreter of this Word of God to each mans conscience in the things of God but he who is Lord of the conscience
of Enemies for I thinke you would oppose Truth no more then my selfe but we both may be said to contend rather for the Truth then against it and rather with one anothers reason then with Truth In this Controversie you have much advantage of learning and experience but there is a Spirit and the inspiration of the Almighty which enlightens the young man and the old Elihu as well as Job or his Friends Your other advantages are the Magistrate whom you have more on your side we only are more on the Magistrates side then they are on ours yet we cannot but say and blesse the Lord for them they are so far on ours as we lead a peaceable and quiet life under them Your other advantage is an Assembly of learned Divines yet not so wholy yours the way of Truth we stand for hath a Party there and I hope when the vaile of prejudice is taken away and Truth is brought home to their soules in its nakednesse power and evidence by a power more spirituall then is yet given out from Heaven out Party there will be greater I willingly presume so much of them I have laboured that a Spirit of love and meeknesse might run through all my Reply unto you though in my travelling over your Paper I have met with some things in the way too sharp and your way hath more Briars and Thorns in it then you promised in your first leafe I had much ado not to be provoked by how much your promise had removed all offence on your part from my expectation If you find any passions in my Book charge them on my unregenerate part for I find that when I would do good evill is present with me You see my labours deducting the time of their Printing are of about two weeks growth younger by some sixe weeks if I mistake not then yours I hope where you could not expect much you will not look for more then I here return you in this time Sir I salute you in the Lord and with all due respects to your self your age your learning I begin my Discourse with you and the Lord let me see the failings on my part while I seek to discover those on yours that I may take out the beame from my own eye as well as the more from yours You desired me in your Book to enter upon away of Peace and I have accordingly presented my Modell to be perfected and refined by any that will set upon the work I do not love in any thing I write to fume out meerly in Controversie but in something if it may be to edification I rest Your Friend in the Lord JOHN SALTMARSH THE SMOKE IN THE TEMPLE Wherein is the Vindication of the new QUERE From Master Ley's RESOLUTION Master Ley's Resolution Page 2 3. I Put a Question Whether he were an Independent or no He told me He was not but that he had a latitude of charity for them of that way Since that I had a glimpse more of his inclination by his Dawning of Light but a full discovery of his mind in his Book The Opening of M. Pryâ—â—s Vindication I will not entertaine him as an enemy To give him his due in all that I have seen set forth in his name I find him rather opinionative then passionate Reply Your Question was accordingly put by you and accordingly answered by me And for my appearing for Truth not all at once in my Treatises you may see I was not hasty to beleeve nor to write in the behalfe of a Truth before I saw it nor to plunge my selfe into any Way till I had examined it The Apostles waited for the full revelation of all Truth by the Spirits comming The Bereans searched daily to see whether the things were so or no. Apollos preached not Christ clearly till he was instructed in the way of God more perfectly We are bidden to try the spirits and prove all things So as I appeared in those degrees but by Scripture warrant And I could name to you examples of another sort Augustine Luther both finding truth but in degrees and the latter sweetly acknowledging how he was enlightened by beam after beam Angels who lie more naked towards God and take in the things they know by way of Vision yet see not any of that will of God which gives Laws to them but as he reveales Much lesse such as we who dwell in houses of clay and whose foundations are in the dust and who come by the sight of things discoursively and by spirituall reasoning God giving in the revelation of his Truths in a naturall yet supernaturall way But for that Notion of Independency you speake on I dare not owne it because I account my selfe both under a spirituall and civill Supremacy under Jesus Christ and the Magistrate severally and exempt from neither We are not of those that despise Governments and speak evill of Dignities nor are we under any such singular Notion that I know on to be called Independents c. We all hold of the Body of Christ and of the Communion of Saints below and we hold one upon another but not one over another We dare not be Classicall Provinciall Nationall these are no formes of wholsome words to which we are commanded nor know we any such power but that of Brethren and Ministery and fellowship We dare not take out a Copy either from the States of the world or the State of Israel to obey or rule by under the Gospell And if you can the Churches or Christ Independent for this we must suffer till the Lord bring forth our righteousnesse as the noon-day Yet this you and we both know that when Truth would not embody or mingle at any time with corruptions it had presently the name of Sect Schisme Faction all which are implyed in the name Independency put upon it Thus were the Reformed Nations of England Germany France c. scandalized by Popish Writers and the old Nonconformists by the Prelaticall the Jews formerly by the Nations the Christians by the Jews We have heard enough of Independency and Presbytery such notes of distinction are now become names of reproach and so I lay them downe And whereas you say you will not entertaine me as an enemy It is more likely then in the end both you and I may prove a better friend to the Truth It is possible many in this Age might have seen more had they not east so much dust in one anothers eyes by their strivings It were well such a Gospell spirit would walke more abroad and that spirit which casts men sometimes into the fire and sometimes into the water were not so stirring Well since you will be no enemy to me I shall not I hope contend with you though I dare not but contend earnestly for the Truth And the Truth it self which I write for may I hope at length find you no more an enemy to it then you are to me I cannot
only to the old man not to him who after God is created in righteousnesse and true holinesse To the 8. Nor am Ilesse a Disputant in Divinity because against Forms of Art and Logick as you say I may dispute in Christs Schoole though refused in the Schoole of Tyrannus And if you will challenge me in any poynt of Philosophy I shall not refuse you there in Logick or Forms of Art They are Forms only for the wisdom of men not the wisdom of God Nor dare I take my discoveries of Christ from Reason nor seek the glory of him in Forms so much below him and fashion the Creator like to the Creature who is God blessed for ever You and I must die more to vaine Philosophie to the wisdom of the Greek to the rudiments of the world I allow Learning its place any where in the kingdoms of the world but not in the Kingdom of God To the 9. For my being a Vbiquitary as you say in beleefe and your proofe of this from the severall Opinions stated in my Book Can you be so unfaithfull to that Book Can you who would be counted an Orthodox and a Divine thus force and compell those Opinions upon me or not rather upon the Paper only where they were printed Because I stated the Opinions of man am I therfore a man of all those Opinions The best is the world may convince you of this and of my purpose in that And now you are thus unfaithfull in a little I may suspect you for more Are you one of those who pretend to be in the Mount with God and to give Laws for Religion Can we trust you in the more excellent mysteries of the Father while you trifie thus and deceive the Brethren To the 10. For my being an Antinomian If to say we serve not in the oldnesse of the Letter but in the newnesse of the Spirit If to say The Law was given by Moses but grace and truth by Jesus Christ If to say We are not under the Law but under Grace If to say We are delivered from our enemies that we might serve him without fearâ— in holinesse and righteousnesse If to say The Commandement is holy qust and good If to say Shall we sin that Grace may abound God forbid If this be Antinomianism I am one of that sort of Antinomians I know no other for my part though you have filled the world with a noise if this be Heresie so worship we the God of our Fathers nor have I mis-quoted any but only singled out that truth from many in one leafe before they spoyled it in the next and like Pilate who asking only what truth was would not tarry by it but departed To the 11. And for my unstablenesse If to be sometimes darknesse and now light in the Lord If to put off the old man with the former lusts and to put on the new If to come out of Babylon when the Spirit cals If to adde to faith vertue to vertue patience to patience godliness c. If to grow in the encreasings of God to a fulnesse of stature in Christ If leaving things that are behind and pressing to things that are before be unstablenesse let me be alwaies thus changing till he who can only change our vile bodies fashion me like unto his glorious body To the 12. Nor do I glory I hope in the quick dispatch of what I do but do not you as well over deliberate as I over dispatch and glory in that But are you no better acquainted with the Spirit in the things of God Are we to be ever consulting with flish and bloud did the Disciples and Brethren when they spake the Word of God tugge first amongst so many Schoole-men so many Fathers so many moderne Divines so many Commentators so many old Poets as you do Or rather only with the Word and Spirit and power of Christ and for that of your Poetrie and your Brewer I desire not to shew so much of the old-man or former corruption as to sparkle so lightly with you To the 13. For my Interposing being no delay to the Government as you say Why do you say then in other places I presented you with a former Book against M. Saltmarsh his Remora And again Mr Saltmarshs Quaere to retard the establishment I pray now be friends first with your self before you be too much an enemie to the truth or to me and though I cannot stand in the way of the establishment I am the least in my Fathers house I am but as the fliâ— upon the wheele yet truth is mighty and of that power as it can weigh heavie upon your Chariot-wheels when you would be driving into the red Sea of persecution and pursuing Israel To the 14. Whereas you say you are wished to be better imployed then in writing they are your friends indeed that wish so you cannot be worse imployed I am sure then in speaking ill of your brethren in advancing your selves in Lordino it over the heritage in tryumphing upon the vantage ground of your place and power in supplicating and at the same time judging the Magistrate or in a word intreating them that they may rule not you or your Presbytery but whom you allow them from your Presbytery And for others undertaking me as many as please for I feare not an host nor a multitude of pen-men I see more for us then against us I know this present Presbytery may have many pensioners there are such great livings of hundreds a yeers to spice the Government the silver shrines had many that cried great was Diana in the Ephesians Master Leys Treatise 1. THe subordination of Assemblies is made good by the learned Book of Mr Rutherford against the Congregationall Independency 2. The subordinate Presbyteries are not Churches out of Churches as yours are not in such singularity with free choyce more conveniencies in Parishes more for preservation of Peace more agreeable to the Apostles Acts 15. more authorized by Parliament That tythes are spoken against by those that scruple not at slander or sacriledeg that they usurp upon God and his Ministers that alienate them from his Worship and Service That Old men are more honourable then the Young therefore called Senators Elders Sages that Dreams are more glorious then Visions because of more Communion with God in the sleep then waking and because of many Divine things revealed in dreames and that John was old when he had his vision That it is lawfull to jest at mis-application of Scripture by Gods example in Gen. by Eliahs by others c. That the other Church-Government comes not under such tryals of the Parliament as Presbytery but is set up without their authority That Gospell-patternes are as much in the Letter as the Legall because written That Mr. Prinn Dr. Bastwick Mr Burton Mr Lilburne were cruelly used by the Bishops Mr Lilburne whipped from Fleet-Bridge to Westminster so cruelly
godlinesse Whether all your Fastings and Repentance were from true meltings of heart sound humiliation or because the State called for it and constrained it Whether your praying and preaching was not much of it Self of Invention of Parts of Art of Learning of seeking praise from man Oh should the light of the Spirit come in clearnesse and glory upon your spirit Oh! how much of Self of Hypocrisie of Vanity of Flesh of Corruption would appeare how would all be unprofitable For my part I cannot be so uncharitable but to wish you a better assurance then what you and your Brethren can find in your own works or righteousnesse For it is not what we approve but what God approves is accepted And I am perswaded however you are now loth it may be to lose reputation by going out of an old track of Divinity as Luther once yet when once your spirit begins to be unclothed of forms of darknesse and art of self-righteousnesse and that you with open face behold the glory of the Lord you will cry out Wo is me I am undone for I have seen the Lord and Lord depart from me for I am a sinfull creature and What went I out to see My owne unrighteousnesse or rather A Reed shaken with the winde An Answer to a Book intituled A Plea for Congregationall Government or A Defence of the Assemblies Petition c. YOu write thus 1 That the independents confesse you a true Church and Minstery 2 Those that are ordained by Bishops may be true Ministers else how am I a Preacher or they true Ministers 3 Succession is not necessary to the essence of a true Ministery 4 If no true Ministery no true Baptisme 5 Must not there be persons ordaining and persons ordained And so the dissenting Brethren hold 6 That you abuse the Assembly in citing their Humble Advice touching the Divine Right of a Congregationall Presbyteriall and not of the other The Independents assort a Divine Right there and in Synods too as they do They hold a Divine Right in one as well as the other 7 Their ordination by Bishops though it should be null yet they have all you can alleadge necessary to a Preacher 8 Parishes here are but as in New-England as in Jerusalem Antioch 9 Some of the dissenting Brethren hold Synods an holy Ordinance of God and this Assembly so to be 10 If no Presbyteries must be of Divine Right because not infallibly gifted this concludes against Presbyteries and Ordinances 11 If you would have them content with a mixed power partly prudentiall because of their mixt dnointing you contradict that pure one you plead for 12 The Apostles and Elders and Angels of the Churches of Asia were not infallible as in divers practices 13 To say the Apostles did advise in place of the written Word is little lesse then Blasphemy 14 The Presbyterians in France and Scotland and the Netherlands do not so imbroyle Kingdoms The feare of excommunicating Parliaments and Kingdoms is but a Bugbeare 15 They aske not of the State an Ecclesiasticall-power but a liberty to exercise that power 16 Hath Christâ— said that in a sound Church Church-Officers shall excommunicate and in an nnsound the Magistrate shall do it 17 He may in time say as much against Equity and justice living upon voyces in Assemblies as against Truth Answer To the first That the Independents confesse you a true Chruch and Ministery You are not to prove what others confesse or hold you to be but what you are indeed according to Truth Nor do I contend with those that hold you so but with you that hold your selves so as the Spirit to the Laodiceans Thou sayest thou art full c. and behold thou art poore c. To the second That they ordained by Bishops are true Ministers as the Independents and I a Preacher for all that Ordination If you meane that the Bishops Ordination makes not one for ever a false or Antichristian Minister I grant it because it is no marke to them that renounce it Babylon is no more Babylon to them that are gone out of it But what is this to your Ministery or Ordination who are yet under the Marke and Babylonish Ordination Renounce it come out as the Spirit cals ye and then your being Antichristian is no more to ye then to the Ephesians that they should be lesse light because they were once darknesse or lesse alive because they were once dead To the third That Succession is not necessary to a true Ministery It is both true and false in severall acceptions When there was a true power they ordained others and others them There was succession But that being lost under Antichrist so far as visibly to derive it to us there can be no such true visible Succession appearing And yet you that pretend to stand by the first power must prove your Succession if you will prove your power To the Fourth If no true Ministery no true Baptism For that as you please I dare not exalt the truth of your Baptism above that of your Ministery no more then you To the Fifth The dissenting Brethren hold there must be persons ordaining and ordained as well as we Yeâ— but do they hold Bishops ordaining and Presbyters ordained by Bishops and Presbyters of their ordaining ordaining others as you do To the Sixth of my unjust citing the Assemblies Modell or Humble Advice and that there is no more Divine Right asserted in the Congregationall Presbytery then in the Classicall c. which is done so by the dissenting Brethren I answer Let the Modell be printed to the world to end the difference betwixt you and me And for the Divine Right of the one and the other I am of your mind they are able to prove both alike of Divine Right that is in their Presbytery The one is no more of Divine Right then the other and neither of them of any And for the dissenting Brethren it is not them but you I deale with Why come you under their shadow in a storme and yet will let them have no liberty under yours but would turne us all abroad as Hereticks and Schismaticks To the Seventh Though the Ordination by Bishops be null yet they have the other necessaries to a Preacher Will ye undertake for the Assembly they shall stand to this that all their former Ordination by Bishops is null If so we are agreed if not all their other necessaries are no more then Ahabs peace What peace saith Jehu so long as the whoredoms of thy mother Iezebell are alive So what Ministery so long as the whoredoms of Babylon yet remaine To the Eighth That the Parishes are but as in New-England as in Ierusalem c. I pray forbeare this it is too manifest an errour Are the Parishes of England and Churches of Ierusalm one and the same so discipled so constituted Were all of Ierusalem and Antioch reckoned for Christs Congregations as all Parishes are To the Ninth
flying away to a Book of Mr Gataker one of the Assembly intituled A Mistake c. and the Book of the namelesse Author called The Plea both writ against me And a very short ANSWER in a word to a Book by another namelesse Author called An After-reckoning with Master Saltmarsh and to Master Edwards his Second Part called Gangrena directed to me Wherein many things of the Spirit are discovered Of Faith and Repentance c. Of the Presbytery And some things are hinted to the undeceiving of people in their present Ministers By John Saltmarsh Preacher of the Gospell Acts 7. 26. Sirs ye are brethren why do ye wrong one to another LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS 1646. Reader IN this Answer to Master Gataker I conceive thou hast a taste of the true Notion both of the sweetnesse and glory of the Gospell Imprimatur May 26. 1646. IOHN BACHILER To the Right Honourable the Lord Maior Aldermen and the Common-Councell of the City of LONDON Right Honourable MAny who call themselves Ministers and Prophets of God accuse us of Heresie and Schism before ye But I hope ye will take notice they are but men as we are and of like passions with us neither Apostles nor Prophets of the first Baptism or gifts of the Spirit Yet if the Priests and Elders or any Oratour as Tertullus accuse Paul to Festus or Agrippa be cannot but answer for himselfe I have but few words to speak to ye Noble Citizens That ye would in that Spirit which is of God judge the Doctrines of Men and single them from Traditions Customes Councels Synods Interests Ye are bid to try the spirits whether they be of God or no. Try whether it be according to God for some Ministers and those not Apostles to call others Hereticks who beleeve not as they beleeve What will become then of the strong and weak Christian of the children fathers and young men Trye whether they ought to preach to ye to suppresse all but themselves since they are not infallible but may erre and where is the Remedy then if they erre Who shall judge the Iudges Try whether this make for unity of spirit to allow no more fellowship nor brotherhood then in Horme and practice And what will they have ye do if Formes should alter For States may change England hath done so Try whether this make for the glory of Christians to persecute or banish as they would have ye all but themselves May they not as well tell ye that God hath made England only for men of the Presbytery or one opinion to live in and worship in And where find they that Trye whether some by their daily Invectives from Presse and Pulpit against Independent's and others bring not in the Popish Designe in another Forme to divide the godly party both Presbyterian and Independent and so to ruine all Try if all such Doctrine as they commonly preach and write to ye resolve not it selfe most into their own interests profits place power And what doth the Scripture and Histories tell ye of that And now I have done praying for ye That ye may be still a free City and not disputed by the miscelany of Logick and Divinity of some into bondage That ye may be still populous and not your streets growing with grasse through any un neighbourly Principle of Persecution which must needs lose ye many and much resort from this famous City under the name of Hereticks not letting such live beside them That ye may be a peaceable City and not raised up and dashed by any breath of men against the other and greater part of your selves the Parliament England hath long enough broken it selfe against its own walls let it now be our strength to sit still and to stand still and see salvation And since the Lord hath let the most of the successe of the Presbytery which is so much desired come thorow the hands of those and that Army whom they have told ye over often were Hereticks let this be but taken notice on by ye what God hath told ye in the successe of that Army and I trust ye will never regard the Messengers by whose hands the Presbytery in a kind came by beating them out of doores Thus rests he Who would rejoyce in your Peace Prosperity and GOSPELL-unity JOHN SALTMARSH REASONS FOR Vnity Peace Love THe Nations and Kingdoms of the world shall bring their glory to Christ and be at peace with all his according to the Prophesies isai 11 6 7 8. Revel 21. 26. Isai 49. 23. And how happy is that Nation or Kingdom which shall be first in this truth and have rather a peace of Prophesie than Policie a peace of God than man How happy shall this Kingdom be to fulfill any of this Prophesie of peace to one another and to the Saints That all Kingdoms and Nations and Princes and People prospered according to their love to Christ and his Pharaoh for Ioseph Ahasuerus for Mordecai Artaxerxes for Nehemiah and the people of the Iews and those Nations have been ever nations of bondage and tyranny to themselves which became so first to the Saints That Ierusalem hath been ever a burdensome stone and a cup of trembling to all that oppressed her and the stone cut out of the Mountaine without hands too mighty for all the Mountaines of the world And the bloud of the Saints where-ever spilled and where ever found in literall or mysticall Babylon never left crying till that very place had bloud given them to drink for in her was found the bloud of the Prophets That the true Peace indeed is more spirituall and comprehensive then men usually think it and takes in severall natures nations people languages of every tongue and kindred so severall spirits consciences judgements opinions not a Peace only of such or such an Opinion not a Peace only of such or such a Society of such or such a Body not a Peace of Presbytery only nor Independency only nor Anabaptisme only but a Peace of All so far as that all or many may be one which is that unity of spirit in the bond of peace That true Peace is an enemy to all selfish interest and selfish preservation and selfish unity or selfish peace because that when Uinity Peace Preservation gathers up from that common interest Peace and Unity to which they are appointed by the law of Creation and Institution and becomes only their own and not anothers their own peace their own unity their own preservation they breaking that law of the Spirit and Communion of their first Creation each perishes in their single private and unwarrantable way of saving themselves And the eye saith unto the hand I have no need of thee and the head to the foot I have no need of you That there is no such impossibility of being one under divers Opinions as we are made beleeve no more then there was for