and in what manner they may heare your Prayers and Supplications For to build the first point you lay downe two Articles and principles most false The one That this hath alwaies beene the doctrine of the Christian Church to say and teach that this was a thing more then reasonable and most profitable to man to inuocate the Saints yea that the Church hath taught the same for the space of 1605 year unto this day The other How certaine Heretikes which are sprung vp within this fortie or fiftie yeares haue meant to preach and teach the cleane contrarie to wit those whom you call Lutherans and Caluinists who but a few yeares ago endeuoring to â—uerthrow so auncient a doctrine according to your opinion haue said and say still that we must not call vpon any of the Saints but vpon God onely I say that your first foundation is false because as Eckius one of your principall Doctours plainely confesseth in his booke of the worshipping of Saints that it is impossible for you to alledge one onely text either out of the old or new Testament whereby you can prooue that either Christ his Euangelists or Apostles haue commanded vs to adore the Saints or haue recommended this seruice to vs as very profitable or reasonable Also Petrus à Scoto confesseth that the inuocation of Saints is not taught in the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles but is there insinuated And likewise some of the Iesuits say that it is not manifestly represented in them but obscurely and mystically or by certaine consequences which are pretended and not well grounded And for this cause the Councell of Trent recommending it vnto the Christians makes no mention of the authority of the holy Scripture but of the ancient custome only of the consent of fathers and of the decreâ—s of holy Councels From whence followeth that this commandement of inuocating the Saints hath not bene giuen to the Christians as you write a thousand sixe hundred and fiue yeares ago or thereabouts but hath bene a long time after forged as I will prooue in due place by your Predecessors who haue made no conscience to teach for doctrine of saluation their owne traditions and humaine inuentions Which hauing shewed your second foundatioÌ„ wil tumble downe of it selfe that is how this rule of worshipping God alone hath bene inuented by those whom wrongfully you terme Lutherans and Caluinists for wee acknowledge none for our soueraigne Doctour and Master but our Lord Iesus Christ the only perfect wisedome and essential word of his Father who hath spoken heretofore to our Fathers by the auncient Prophets and since being manifested in our flesh hath spoken himselfe by his sacred mouth to his Disciples and after his Ascension by his Apostles who as faithful Secretaries and dispensators of the secrets of God haue left vs in writing the fundamentall points of pure Religion and touching this point haue taught vs that God only and no other ought to bee called vpon by vs in our necessities And although this is as cleere as the Sun shine in a bright day at noone yet because you are blinde and leaders of the blinde as your predecessors the Scribes and Pharisies were in the time of Iesus Christ wee will alleage against you some certaine proofes for that which is abouesaid to the end they may serue as a cleere light to those which wink not with their eyes that they might not see in seeing but open them with a holy desire to behold this light When God saith in the first Commandement of his law giuen by Moses to our Fathers * Thou shalt haue none* other Gods before me what doth hee signifie by this prohibition but only that we ought not to acknowledge any other God and Sauiour but him nor to attribute to any one that honour which is proper to him that is to call vpon him only in our anguishes according to that expresse command which he giueth vs in Deuteronom Thou shall worship the Lord thy God and serue him And by the Prophet Asaph in the 50 Psalme verses 14. 15. Offer vnto God praise and pay thy vowes vnto the most high and call vpon me in the day of trouble and I will deliuer thee and thou shalt glorifie me And to stirre vs vp the more thereunto he denounceth by the Prophet Esay chap. 42. and 8 verse I am the Lord this is my name and my glorie will I not giue to another neither my praise to grauen Images And in the 45 chap. and 21 verse Haue not I the Lord and there is none other God beside me a iust God and a Sauiour there is none beside me And in the 22 verse Looke vnto me and yee shall be saued all the ends of the earth shall be saued for I am God and there is none other If hereupon you object against me that God commandeth not by these places that wee should only worship him and none other beside him The answere is cleere to wit that this commandement of God was so interpreted by the Prophet Samuel and in the fulnesse of time by our Soueraigne Doctor Iesus Christ himselfe For therefore you may see how the Prophet warneth all the house of Israel in the 7 chapter of his booke and third verse where he saith If ye be come againe vnto the Lord with all your heart put away the strange gods from among you and Ashtoroth and direct your hearts vnto the Lord and serue him only and hee shall deliuer you out of the hand of the Philistims By which you may see that the Prophet Samuel sheweth vnto the children of Israel that the meanes and way to conuert and direct themselues vnto the Lord with all their hearts is to serue him only and to take away from before his eyes the Idols of the Heathen which hee calleth the gods of the strangers Euen so also our Lord Iesus Christ being tempted in the wildernesse by the wicked spirit which had transported him vpon a high mountaine and shewed him all the kingdomes of the world and the glorie of them with promise that he would giue them all vnto him if so be he would fall down and worship him he alleageth against Satan that which is written in the sixt chapter of the book of Moses called Deuteronomie expounding the intention of his father as he which is his Counsellour witnesse the Prophet Isaiah in his ninth chapter and fifth verse he addeth thereto this word only when hee answereth Satan that in that place it is written Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serue as though he would haue said That the seruice which is due vnto God only is to worship him and to prostrate our selues before him And to this end and purpose the sonnes of Korah who composed the 44 Psalme teach vs in the 20 and 21 verses that to call vpon any other besides God is to forget and denie him If say they
instructions of those Doctors touching the inuocation of one only God the intercession of one only Mediatour Iesus Christ the leauen of the inuocation of Saints to corrupt the pure seruiâ—e instituted by our Lord Iesus Christ in the Apostolicall Church euen so the successors of these enemies of the ancient puritie perceiuing that the zealous followers thereof made vse of the good bookes of the ancient Fathers to encounter their superstitions haue continued in falsifying more and more their bookes And to make vp the measure of their Fathers being assembled in the Councell of Trent they enioyned some to change cut off and condemne whatsoeuer they should finde and iudge offensiue and contrarie to their errors Vpon which the Iesuits are diligently employed following therein the example of the idolatrous Gentiles who perceiuing as Aâ—nebius complaineth thereof in his third booke that they might be conuicted of falsehood by Ciceroes bookes touching the nature of the Gods formerly published corrupted them and maliciously concealed them that no more mention might be made of them For the Iesuites haue made two Registers imprinted at Naples Madril and Antwerp wherein they haue not only put sundrie words and sentences of the Fathers which expressely they commanded to chaunge and deface out of their bookes but also added certaine annotations to their writings by some great personages to helpe and ease the memorie of the Reader yea without sparing their owne Teachers who haue laboured asmuch to impart vnto vs the true exposition of the Fathers doctrine as they to bereaue and rob vs of it Now to cosen the world they haue intituled these fiâ—e bookes Indices expurgatorij that is to say Purgatiue Indices or Registers which more aptly may bee tearmed Putrefactiues For so farre off is it that these scullions haue laboured to purge the booke of the ancient Fathers and their expositors from staines and filth that contrariwise they haue defiled them wheresoeuer they laid their clutches on them full of stench and putrifaction I am ashamed to discover their villanies but seeing I haue begun I must proceed at once in manifesting it to them In their Index of Spaine they haue ordained to deface these words of S. Hillaries whereby he declareth the reason why the wise virgins answered the foolish that they could not guie theÌ„ of their oyle to wit because none ought to be succored with the works and merits of another In that very Index they command to race out of S. Anselmus booke of the manner of visiting the sicke these words of great consolation Beleeuest thou that thou canst attaine vnto glorie not through thine owne merits but by the vertue and merit of Iesus Christ Beleeuest thou y â— he died for our saluation and that none can be saued through his own merits nor no otherwise then by his death and passion They iudge also in that Index that these words annexed to S. Chrysostoms Register of his bookes ought to be defaced to wit that faith only iustifieth and faith only saueth grounded on certainâ— sentences of S. Chrysostoms noted in y â— said Register It admonisheth the Reader also to reiect this glosse that There are no more workes in the world to come nor any calling to repentance c. Which was receiued froÌ„ the discourse of Epiphanius in his treatise of Heresie 59. Likewise it ordaineth that this proposition be raced out that Prayer be made for the liuing but not for the dead Which was taken from S. Ieromes admonition vpon the third chapter of the Epistle to the Galathians whereupon he noteth this sentence of the Apostle that euery one shall beare his owne burthen Whilest we are in this present world we may succour each other either by prayers or counsels but when wee shall appeare before the iudiciall thronâ— of Christ neither Iob Dauid nor Noah can pray for vs c. What else haue not the Iesuits commanded in the two Indices of Spaine and the Low-Countries to cut out of the Register added to S. Chrysostoms bookes these words That all the Prophets haue bin married whereby the Reader is sent to that which S. Chrysostome speaketh thereof in his 56. Sermon vpon S. Matthew where he proueth by the examples of Moses Esay and Ezechiel that all the Prophets had wiues and houses In the Low-Countrie Index they condemne the sentences of one of their principall writers called Faber Stapulensis whereby hee maintaineth that S. Ierome and Chrysostome haue taught that inuocation appertaineth to none but vnto God only Also they would haue one to purge the writings of George Cassander touching the naturall exposition of the word merit and of whatsoeuer hee alleageth in his bookes concerning the custome of the Apostles first successors to wit that they haue communicated in the Lords Supper for more then a thousand yeeres vnder the two signes of bread and wine They haue also commanded to race out the annotations of Erasmus of Rotterdam vpon the third chapter of the first Epist. to Timothy and in like maner those of S. Chrysostoms That a Bishop must be the husband of one onely wife Finally as many lines so many corruptions and as many infallable markes of their vngodlinesse and ill consciences For albeit they seek to couer their impietie vnder that false mask the title of purgation yet so it is y â— they do most manifeâ—tly discouer it by the soueraigne authority which they take to themselues in censuring and condemning as Iudges the instructions of their ancestors conformable to the word which God himselfe hath inspired into his Prophets and Apostles And if they had made no doubt of the testimonie of truth which shined in the books of those first lights of the Church they would not haue inforced themselues to quench then so much but might thereby haue been armed to haue defended and preserued themselves On the other part if they had been faithfull keepers of their writings which were put into their hands they would haue altered nothing neither concerning the matter nor the forme thereof but would haue been carefull to haue preserued them in their originall puritie But knowing now that these falsaries haue not kept the treasure committed to their charge but haue mixed among them their lead with the pure gold which they receiued from their ancestors what man is it among vs which will dare to assure himself of the sinceritie of those authors and sentences which they alleage against vs and of the integritie of the interpretations which they recoÌ„mend vnto vs and of the truth of those examples which they propound vnto vs And sith I haue quoted so many excellent sentences of the Fathers manifestly contrarie to those which you haue produced in your epistle vnder the name and authoritie of the same Doctors what should we doe in so great a contradiction of those sundrie rules of prayers cited aswell in the one part as on the other as alreadie wee haue vnderstood that there is nothing more
THE REFVTATION OF AN EPISTLE WRITTEN BY A CERTAIN DOCTOR OF the Augustins Order within the Citie of Leige TOGETHER WITH THE ARGVMENTS which he hath borrowed from Robert Bellarmine to proue the inuocation of Saints By IOHN POLYANDER Minister vnto the French Church in Dort And now translated by HENRY HEXHAM out of French into English 1. PETER 4. 11. If any man speake let him talke as the words of God AT LONDON Imprinted by F. K. for Thomas Man 1610. TO THE HONORABLE AND RIGHT WORTHIE SIR HORACE VERE Knight Lord Gouernour of his Maiesties Cautionarie Towne of Briel in Holland and chiefe Commander vnder his Excellencie of all the English Forces in the seruice of the Lords the States of the vnited Prouinces RIght Honourable and my best Lord it shal not offend any that know your Lordship how God hath honoured you with the eminent markes of Honour in your noble Birth great Exploits true vertues and vnfained godlinesse so much the greater by how much the rarer dignities that I stile you right Honourable and I trust it will not offend you that I call you my best Lord whom I haue long followed and next vnder God doe depend vpon If ought need excuse it is then this boldnesse that I presume vpon your fauour so much as to dedicate this Treatise vnto your name and that without your Lordships priuitie The Treatise right worthy being considered in it selfe is not vnworthie a noble Patron being written of a notable argument and by a notable Minister and in my opinion so much the more agreeable vnto you by how much you declare your self a zealous louer of that Truth which this author maintaineth and haue with losse of blood and hazard of life defended with your sword what this man by his pen. As touching my part therein which is the least and the translation though it be not so well worthie of you yet because it is due to you being done by one of your Lordships Companie and in the towne of your Garrison where it was also penned and by me that haue deuoted my selfe vnto your seruice in any dutie I can performe I hope your Lordship will not only pardon my boldnesse but accept my dutifull affections in this which in my prayers to God for you shall euer shew themselues to be such as becommeth me Your Lordships Souldier euer to be commanded Henry Hexham TO THE CHRISTIAN READER THe extreame libertie which this scribling age taketh of writing and publishing idle and vnprofitable pamphlets and the double diligence of Popish Writers in painting the old and withered face of their Iezabel not onely may but ought to prouoke those that can dee it to set forth wholesome things as counter-poysons or preseruatiues against the foresaid poysons of manners and doctrine Hereupon I confesse to haue encouraged the translator of this present Treatise to publish the same in our language into which hee had and so farre as I can indge both faithfully and fitly turned it out of French that our countrey-men might see how the Ministers of other Churches are assaulted and do make their iust defence with the same weapons with which our owne Touching the author of this booke I may not conceale that he is a man of singular note for his learning grauity pietie and conuersation and hath so stood in the seruice of the French Church at Dort in Holland for the space of eighteene yeeres to the praise of God Concerning the worke I will not so much ouervalew my selfe or vndervalew it as to recommend it vpon my word vnto the Churches of God for who am I but signifie that the seuerall impressions of it in French the translating thereof into the Dutch tongue and the good respect thereof in the French and Dutch Churches doe more then sufficiently commend it vnto all men wherefore good Reader I leaue it thus commended vnto thee and pray God to make it profitable to thee as it hath bin to many others Thine in the Lord Iohn Burges Preacher to the English at the Hagâ—â—e in Holland TO THE FRENCH CHVRCH ASSEMBLED together at Dort THere is no exercise most deare and worthie Brethren in the Lord more needfull nor more conuenient for a Christian man then to call vpon his Creator and Sauiour For sith that hee receiueth from his hand all manner of blessings aswell for this present life as for that which is to come he is therefore bound continually to inuocate and call vpon him for aide who is the Father of lights from whom commeth downe euery good giuing and euery perfect gift Beside it is also that marke by which the children of light are discerned from the children of this world who as it is written in the 14 Psalme haue no care to call vpon the Lord. Moreouer it is one of the parts of that Christian acknowledgement whereby wee make profession to beleeue that God is and that he is a rewarder of them that seeke him as the Apostle witnesseth in the 11. Chapter to the Hebrewes and sixth verse It is a sweete communication and a familiar discourse with God whereby wee freely declare to him our necessities and beseech him to returne an answere to our petitions in due time It may also be called an ambassage or a trusty Post which swiftly mounting vp to heauen knocketh at the gate of Gods palace there to present before him all our requests Finally it is the very soule of our soules and like as our bodies cannot liue nor subsist without our soules so likewise cannot our soules perseuere in the faith and hope of the grace of God which is the fountaine of life without the exercise of prayer Which point the Fathers of the old Testament considering ere they betooke themselues to any of their affaires began them euermore by calling vpon the name of God saying Our helpe is in the name of the Lord which hath made heauen and earth Which also the Iewes from the godlinesse of their forefathers hold yet vnto this day and obserue it so carefully that they addresse their prayers to none but to that sole Creator of all things Wherein these ignorant people which neither know the Sonne nor the Father shew themselues farre more wise and religious then the Papists which call themselues Christians and Catholikes and yet notwithstanding are so blockish and superstitious that in stead of addressing themselues to the only God Almightie immortall they implore the aide of the dead and their Idols not considering what the Lord speaketh by his Prophet Esay in the 42. chap. and 8. verse that his glorie he will not giue to another neither his praise to grauen Images But what the diuell sworne enemie against the honour of God and mans saluation hath with such an efficacy breathed this impiety into the hearts of those lying Doctors that albeit they are conuicted by an infinit number of sentences of holy Scripture by which God expressely forbiddeth vs not to worship any but
by them euery good thing commeth from the Father of lights in fauour of those that craue it with a stedfast faith Furthermore S. Ambrose saith in his booke Deviduis that It behoueth vs to inuocate the Angels which are giuen vs for our sauegards and to pray to the Martyrs also whose fauour we pretend through the alliance of the same nature that they make intercession for our sinnes hauing by their owne blood washed off those which themselues might haue These the Martyrs of God are our Prelats and beholders of our liues and actions Let vs not then be afraid to take as Intercessors those which in the midst of their victories knew their owne infirmitie Saint Hierom in his Epitaph to Paula inuocating this holy Lady Paula said Farewell O Paula helpe by thy praiers the later age of thy deuoted seruant thy faith and thy works associat thee with Iesus Christ and being there present thou maiest more easily obtaine thy request And the most learned and most deuout Doctor S. Austin in his Mediations cap. 40. calling vpon the Virgin saith Holy and immaculate Virgin mother of God Mary the mother of our Lord Iesus Christ deigne to make intercession for mee vnto him of whom thou hast been made the holy temple through thy vertues and merits And afterward hauing inuocated all the Saints in order he concludeth I am become so bold to beseech thee that it may please thee to pray for me to the end that I may merit to bee plucked out of Satans throte and from eternall death I let slip many other excellent speeches which this Doctor hath written in his 18. sermon made of Saints I will not here recite S. Leo and S. Gregory which were Popes neither S. Gregory of Tours S. Anfelmus S. Bernard and many moe which teach the same in this matter for the confirmation of our faith of whom the halfe were more then too sufficient to make all Lutherans and Caluinists to blush if they had any bloud in their hearts I will let passe in silence the many miracles done through the inuocation of Saints which the holy Father S. Austin of whom my masters the Ministers so willingly doe helpe themselues but would to God it were to a good end setteth downe before vs in his 22. booke of the Citie of God cap. 8. I cite the booke because they might reade them and to the intent they would cease from calling vs Idolaters seeing we doe it after the example of all these holy and wise Doctors with whom these new Doctors deserue not to be compared In the yeare two hundred and twentie when Doctor Origen prayed vnto the holy Prophet Iob was he an Idolater In the yeare three hundred and sixtie when S. Gregory Nazaanzeâ—us prayed vnto S. Basil in the Oration which he made for him was he an Idolater At that time as S. Basil cryed to the 40. Martyrs when S. Hierome recommended himselfe to the prayers of the holy Lady Paula and likewise S. Austin to those of the Virgin Maries were all these excellent and learned men Idolaters I beleeue no. Why then should these new Reformers or rather deformers of the Church call vs Idolaters seeing we do the same after all these holy Doctors But there is one thing you will tell me which troubleth much these Heretikes that is that they cannot vnderstand nor imagine that the Saints can heare vs affirming it is impossible that a man which is praying vpon the earth can be heard of them into Heauen Behold this is the second point which in the beginning of this Epistle we haue propounded let vs now come to examine it Know then that the Ministers and Preachers among some of their arguments which in them I haue noted and in their writings this of all other they esteeme the most strongest and that which they most set by Their Captaine Caluin in the third booke of his Institutions Chap. 20. sect 24. thinking to alledge some rare and new-found thing against vs setteth downe one thing which is most ridiculous and vnmeete I say not of a Doctour in Diuinitie but euen for a simple Scholar discoursing in this manner Who hath reueiled to vs saith he that they haue eares so long as to reach downe vnto our words and eyes so sharp that they can consider of our necessities By these words he would say that the Saints to vnderstand our prayers ought not only to haue both eyes and eares as they had vpon the earth but besides that they must haue long eares and great eyes which should penetrate downe vnto the earth Wherin this good Doctour shewes that he hath failed as well in Philosophie as in Diuinitie and that he himselfe neuer had either eyes or eares in his soule to know the truth It was pitie that he had not spoke this in some of the ancient Philosophers Schoole how had he bene mocked For what a folly or what an ignorance is it to thinke that Soules being separated from their bodies cannot vnderstand without the instruments of the bodie Men neuer yet found Philosophie which acknowledgeth not euen by naturall light only that the soule being freed from the body knoweth more yea better and much more easily then when it was within the bodie Therefore to account that one should haue long eares to heare the better it is to bring Asses eares into great request And if so be that all Asses could speake as well as that Asse which was the false Prophet Balaams I beleeue they would confesse that the length of their eares makes them neuer a whit the quicker of hearing but would say that such as thinke it so are greater Asses then themselues So then this great Doctor Master Caluin hath abused himselfe in his doctrine And since his time his and Luthers schollers to shew themselues wiser then their Masters haue begun to require of the Catholiques some expresse texts and examples taken out of the holy Bible whereby it might appeare that the Saints which are aboue in Paradise can vnderstand and heare our prayers But he that will answere them well should demaund also of them because they referre the deciding of euery question to the Scripture some certaine places and texts by which the contrarie might appeare to wit that the Saints cannot heare our prayers and were not this enough would they not be confounded and ouerthrowne yes vndoubtedly for they could neuer be able to produce so much as one onely text either out of the old or new Testament let them reade ouer the Bible as oft as they list and this were an excellent way to conuict them by answering them in this maner But to the end they should not thinke that we would vse shifts as they do in this point and in all other occurrences rather then by giuing a good answere we will shew them that the Scripture faileth vs not in this point and that it maketh for vs seeing they will haue it so Note then how this is one expresse text
of Scripture that the Angels in heauen vnderstand our prayers considering they are the reporters of them to the Diuine Maiestie Now this is also another expresse text of Scripture that the Saints in heauen shall be like to the Angels according to the saying of the Sonne of God in the holy Gospell We must then conclude that the Saints heare our prayers seeing the Angels vnto whom they are likened heare them Me thinks I heare alreadie my Masters the Ministers to answere and say that this similitude of the Angels and Saints of which our Lord speaketh in the Gospell consisteth but only in their felicitie and blessednesse and not in their nature or office that is our Lord would say that the Angels and the Saints should be equall and like to each other in heauen because both of them should be blessed enioying one selfesame glory and felicitie But let vs suppose that the case were so let vs grant and admit that the answere of these my Masters be true yet notwithstanding euen by the same we can ensnare and entrap them For seeing the estate and happines of future life hindreth not the Angels from hearing the prayers of mortall men wherefore or how can it be but the Saints being in the selfe-same felicitie as the Angels are may not also heare our prayers as well as they this text then of Scripture sheweth that the Saints heare our prayers they heare vs they see vs neither are ignorant of that which is done vpon the earth which once more I will shew you out of the Scripture For the holy Patriarch Abraham being dead and in Limbo knew many things which were done among the children of Israel as you may see in the sixteenth Chapter of S. Luke First he knew that the people had the bookes of Moses and the Prophets of whom the auncientest was Moses who had written more then foure hundred yeares after the death of Abraham Secondly he knew the life that the rich Glutton had led vpon the earth and the miserie which poore Lazarus had there endured Thirdly he saw and knew the estate and condition of that vnhappie wretch and heard his prayer though he was not heard when he cryed Father Abraham haue mercy on me and send Lazarus c. And yet neuerthelesse there was a great distance betweene the one and the other as Abraham plainly told him Finally the rich Glutton though he was damned saw he not Abraham heard he not his answere gaue he not his replyes for all there was the distance of a great Gulfe betweene them Now I hope there is no man that dareth deny all this for it is written in the holy Gospell and is a historie pronounced by the mouth of him which cannot lye but is the truth himselfe euen Iesus Christ. If this thing and story be true as it is I then charge all the Caluinian and Lutherian Ministers and say vnto them in this manner If Abraham my masters shut vp in Limbo not enioying at that time the sight of God and being not yet blessed but through hope notwithstanding knew the things of this world knew the state and miserie of that rich Glutton and heard him make his prayer and request will you thinke then that the Saints in Paradise beholding God and enioying his most bright sight are lesse priuiledged then Abraham therefore the father S. Austine saith excellent well Quid non vident qui videntem omnia vident that is What is it saith he that the Saints aboue in heauen see not seeing they see him that seeth all things which is God And that which seemeth more If the damned themselues heare those speake which are afarre off from them as the rich man heard Abraham and by those words shewed himselfe mindfull and carefull of his brethren which were yet in the world being afraid lest they should come into the same place of torment wherein he was as you may see what he spake vnto Abraham in the Gospell shall we imagine that the Saints and all those which are in the kingdome of heauen see and know not that which we do vpon the earth And if the Saints and all the blessed ones that are departed this life know the things of this world what ought they to heare or know more then the prayers which are made vnto them And if they vnderstand and can heare the voice of the damned is it possible in your opinion that they should not vnderstand the prayers and requests of those which desire to be saued If the damned themselues as appeareth by the story of the rich Glutton would procure that no harme might happen to their brethren and friends will those which are saued be lesse charitable will not they aduance and help forward as much as in them lieth the saluation of their friends and Christian brethren and that so much the more if they see and heare that one requireth them thereunto Sir now you may demaund of me and say If so be I should conesse that the Saints heare our prayers yet faine would I know how and in what manner they heare vs To say the truth this is a very hard thing to be vnderstood and neuerthelesse it is true The father S. Austine acknowledging the hardnes of this question and through humilitie the small capacitie of his spirit though it was very great in his booke which he hath made and intituled De cura pro mortuis agenda c. 16. saith that In truth this question surpasseth the force of my vnderstanding being not able to conceaue after what a fashion the Martyrs help those which we know to be entirely helped by them By these words S. Austin acknowledgeth well that it is hard for him to vnderstand how they know the things of this world neuerthelesse he beleeueth that they know them and that indeed and certainely as he saith wee are succoured by them Wherein it may please you to note one difference among the rest that there is betweene our Catholicall Doctours and the Hereticall Doctours that is Ours if they cannot attaine to the totall and perfect knowledge of that matter or question which they handle they will not dispute it so farre as to denie the question and thing because they find it hard and surpassing their vnderstandings but admitting of the thing with humilitie they acknowledge only the smalnes of their capacitie as with very great modestie the most learned father S. Austin hath done in this point But these new hereticall Doctours which are come vp with and after Luther and Caluin though the thing or question disputed be true and grounded vpon good reason because they cannot comprehend nor compasse it within their vnderstandings flatly denie and reiect the thing as we see them daily doe in many other points and articles of religion seeking alwaies to reduce them within the capacitie of their spirits which very often is but small and ruinating the nature of faith which consisteth in beleeuing things that surpasse the reason and
and redemption Doe you not teach in your Catechisme made by the authoritie of the Councell of Trent That men ought to inuocat the Saints inasmuch as God through their merit and grace doth vs good Approue you not that which Barnardine de Busto writeth in his Marial of the virgin Mary That first of all she is Mediatrix of our saluation 2. Mediatrix of our coniunction and vnion 3. Mediatrix of our iustification 4. Mediatrix of our reconciliation 5. Mediatrix of our intercession and 6. Mediatrix of our communication Sing ye not O pia puerpera nostra pians scelera iure matris impera Redemptori that is O godly Child-bearer thou which purgest vs from our sins command our Redeemer by the authoritie of a mother Allow you not also the sentence of Lombard who saith in the 4 booke of his Sentences Dist 45. That the Saints make intercession for vs both by their merits in that they supply the defect of ours and by their affection in that they ioyne themselues to our prayers and therefore saith hee â—e pray vnto them that they might make intercession for vs to wit that their merits may be allowed vs and that they might wish our good because that they wishing it Godwils it also See now how your owne words and those of your Doctors conuince you of contradiction and manifest falsehood As for the other part of your Conclusion it is weakly grounded and euen by your owne reasons is easie to bee ouerthrowne that is seeing with vs you confesse that Iesus Christ only hath redeemed vs through the merit of his death and passion and that hee is only true God and true man that he alone hath no neede of any other Mediatour either for himselfe or for others you cannot maintaine against vs with truth that the Saints liuing or dead are in any fashion our Mediatours and Intercessors yet you seeke neuerthelesse to proue it by some texts out of the Bible For truth whereof say you I referre my selfe to the holy Scripture for in the fifth Chapter of Deâ—terenomie Moses calleth himselfe a Mediatour saying I haue been an Vmperer and a Mediatour between God and you speaking to the Hebrewes Vnto which words S. Paul making an allusion in the 9. Chapter and 15. verse to the Hebrewes calleth Iesus Christ the Mediator of the new Testament to put a difference between him and Moses which had been of the old Howbeit this example of Moses will not serue your turne as a proofe but to the first part of your Affirmation to wit that the liuing are Mediatours and Aduocates for others I tell you moreouer that in this lense Moses neuer calleth himselfe a Mediatour betweene God and men but as himself hath well interpreted it hee bore messages betweene both the parties that is between God and the children of Israel For in the Hebrew tongue you shall there finde these very words of Moses saying At that time I stood betweene the Lord and you to declare vnto you the word of the Lord. If you replie hereupon that Moses is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is a Mediatour in the Epistle to the Galathians the third chapter and nineteenth verse I answer that sometimes this Greek word signifieth an Interpretour which goes and comes to and fro betweene two parties and that in this signification it is said by the Apostle to the Galathians that the Law was ordained by Angels in the hand of a Mediatour to wit Moses who twice went vp to the mountaine and came downe againe with the two Tables of the law of God to reade and expound them to the Israelites In which sense wee grant you that hee the high Priests and the ancient Prophets who haue interpreted the will of God and haue offered vp vnto him in the name of our Fathers may be called Mediatours and the Apostles also but not in that sense in which heretofore we haue declared that the Apostle S. Paul calleth Iesus Christ the onely Mediatour in the first epistle to Timothie the second chapter and fifth verse where the Apostle taketh this word of Mediatour for a Reconciler as himselfe expoundeth it saying That hee gaue himselfe a ransome for vs in which sense this title beseemeth none properly but Iesus Christ onely neither can it be attributed without blasphemie to the members of his Church But let vs examine a little your proofe that followeth Is it not true you demand me that wee haue but one Sauiour of the world which is Iesus Christ Wherunto you answere that there is nothing more true And neuerthelesse the scripture which cannot lie giueth the same title of honor to others without doing wrong or dishonor to Iesus Christ as to Othoniel in the third chapter of the booke of Iudges and ninth verse And Nehemiah in the ninth chapter of his booke confirmeth the same King Pharaoh also as appeareth in the 41. chapter of Genesis calleth Ioseph in the Egyptian tongue not onely Sauiour but Sauiour of the world From whence with a long circumlocution of words you conclude that by these three small reasons it is easie to be vnderstood how the Saints may also be mediators and intercessors vnto God for vâ— and if they are so then wee may and ought to call vpon 〈…〉 our humaine necessities and that it will not follow from thenceâ— that you should reiect the sonne of God for as much as you alwaies giue to him the first rancke of being the true and onâ—ly mediator according to the fashion as you haue said and the Saints is their sort anâ—â—manâ—r So then it will be exceeding well done to inuocate them as they alwaies haue done in your catholike church It goes well with you when you your selfe tearme your reasons small and confesse beside that the holy scripture giueth this title of honor to others then to our Lord Iesus Christ though it be neuerthelesse for some other reason And indeed those which you haue named in the old Testament are called sauiours or deliuerors yet was it in regard that God had ordained them as instruments of deliuerance for his people and for types and figures of the Sauiour which was to come But the holy scripture in no maner calleth the deceased Saints mediators neither doth it teach vs that they are established by God for instruments of mediation betweene God and vs so that this argument of yours drawne from the name of sauiour makes nothing for your cause As touching your Anticipation and excuse that although you pray vnto the Saints yet neuerthelesse you doe not reiect the sonne of God because you alwaies giue vnto him the first ranke of being the true and onely mediator according to that fashion which formerly you haue spoken of it is easie to answere and proue the contrarie by the maner custome of youâ— catholike church wherupon you ground your superstitions So it is then that in the houres Rosarie appointed for the virgin Mary
is thy request it shall be giuen thee euen to the halfe of the kingdome This Empresse saith he figured the Empresse of heauen to whom God hath giuen the halfe of his kingdom for God hauing his iustice and his mercy hath reserueah is iustice to exercise it in this world and hath left mercis to his Mother Therefore if any one feele himselfe grieued as the Court of Gods iustice let him appeale to the Court of the mercie of his Mother c. Whereunto is also conformable that which Anthonine the Archbishop writeth in his summe par 3. tit 12. chap. 8. par 4. tit 15. chap. 14. 44. That as it is impossible that they from whom the Virgin Mary â—â—rneth the eyes of her mercie should be saued so is it necessarie that those vpon whom she turneth them praying for them should be iustified and glorified because Christ is not onely an Aduocate but also a Iudge who will examine all things in rigour and will leaue nothing vnpunished So the good God hath prouided vs such an Aduocatesse in whom there is nothing but benignitie and gentlenesse Hereupon abusing impudentlie the exhortation of the Apostle in his Epistle to the Hâ—brewes in the 4. chapter and 16 verse he admonisheth vs to goe boldly vnto the throne of God which is saith he the Virgin Mary in whom he hath placed it let vs goe concludeth he vnto her with assurance as the Apostle saith to the Hebrewes to the end we may obtaine mercie and finde grace in time of need Whereunto to bring the ignorant he likewise is not ashamed to tell this fable that the blessed Seraphins and angels would haue withheld the Virgin Mary as she ascended vp into heauen to haue enioyed her company and to haue placed her in the highest degree of their order as she which surpassed and excelled them both in glorie and in the flame of charitie But what said she to them I take pleasure in your order and congratulate you most affectionately for your diuine fâ—râ—encie But the Scripture must be accomplished saying It is not good that man should be alone let vs make him a helpe like to himselfe so then it is not good that my Sonne should be alone but that I must assist him seeing I am his mother and haue been giuen him for an aide in redemption through compassion in glorification through intercession for mankinde to the intent that if God should threaten to drowne the earth and to punish the sinnes of man by the flood of his scourges I may appeare before him as the Rain-bow that hee may call to minde his coueâ—â—t and may reconcile himselfe with them and not destroy the world You speake not so audaciously of the other Saints departed howbeit Viues the Spaniard confesseth plainly in his discourse on S. Austins 8. book of the City of God that he cannot perceiue that there is any difference betweene the opinion you hold of your Saints and that which the Pagans held of their goods considering you doe vnto them the same honours as vnto God himselfe and to his Sonne Iesus Christ. And indeed your Master of Sentences and his disciples makes no bones to call the Saints the Mediatours of our saluation to teach how they through their works of supererogation haue purchased so great credit in heauen that they haue not onely merited eternall glorie and happinesse for themselues but by those workes also may succour those which yet walke in this vale of miserie and to helpe their necessities The praeyers of the Saints saith Bonauenture in the 4. booke of his Sentences dist 45. qu. 2 may obtaine us many good things as the Master to wit of Scholasticall sentences saith by their affection and through their former merits by which readily and promptly they hauâ— serued God On the other side Our dutie is saith Alexander of Ales in his fourth sentence and 92 question to pray vnto the Saints for three reasons Because of our necessitie the glorie of the Saints and the reuerence to God I say because of the want and defect of our owne merits to the end that when we haue not sufficient and enough of our owne the merits of others may helpe and defend vs. I would willingly come foorth of that bottomlesse pit of your execrable blatphemies but my conscience will not suffer me to dissemble those great praises which you attribute vnto S. Francis who was condemned of impietie by Pope Iohn the 22. and to S. Dominiâ—â—s as it were in despite of God and of his Sonne Iesus Christ neuerthelesse because I will not be too redious I will not here cite all that is found written of them in the bookes allowed by your Church onely I will draw foorth some drafts and principall points whereof the first is that it is written in the book of Conformities How the Virgin Marie and the rest of the Saints in heauen goe in procession euerâ—e one in their order but as for Saint Francis he is harboured in Christs side and commeth forth through his wound is Ensigâ—e bearer to conduct them with the banner of his Crosse in his hand And in the Prose of S. Francis that hee is The figuratiue Sauiour the way the life and a singular one crucified who hauing receiued in a vision the same wounds as Christ had according to the Diuels attestation which heerein is your Doctor purgeth you from your sins Wherefore in good 〈◊〉 he may say that which is sung in the Gospell vpon his feast day All things are giuen to me of my father for as much as through his merites hee hath been made the sonne of God and hath receiued a billet from heauen wherein was written This man is the grace of God So that now through the merits of his works which are so holy that if an Angell had done them they could not haue bin more admirable He is the modell of all perfectioÌ„ in whom we may ioyntly see all the vertues of the Saints aswell of the old as of the new Testament for hee hath obserued the Gospell to a letter and hath accomplished all the commandements of God In such sort that according to the prophecie of Ieremie in the 50 Chap. vers 20. Men shall seeke for his sinne but they shall not finde it And of him the Psalmist hath spoken Thou hast crowned him with glorie and honor and hast set him euer all the workes of thine hands For according to your beliefe he is in the glorie of the Father as it is written Phil. 2. he is deified and in the glorie of God But which is more he maketh one selfesame spirit with God he sitteth aboue in heauen as Aduocate of all the Church militant he is most neerely knit vnto God and beareth rule ouer euery creature By one Masse he hath appeased God towards all the world And to alleage your own words Christus â—rauit Franciscus exorauit that is to say Christ hath prayed Francis hath obtained Let vs now
the Deitie any thing which by God hath been made and created but the only God who hath made and created all things From whence appeareth that the inuocation of Saints bore not any sway in those daies nor any degree or title of diuine seruice in the Christian Church in the time of Saint Austine and his predecessors True it is hee complaineth that in his daies the Church began to lose her virginitie and that they obscured not those most wholesome things which in the diuine books are commanded but that there were instituted some other ceremonies beyond the custome He confesseth also that the Church being setled among much chaffe and tares did beare with many things which themselues durst not reproue nor condemne to auoid the scandals of some persons whereof some were holie and others seditious But howbeit on the other side hee declareth that neither hee nor the Church hath allowed the things which were against the faith and a godly life There is a difference saith he in his 119 epistle to Ianuarius betweene the things that we teach and the things which we suffer betweene the things that wee are commanded to teach and between the things that we are commanded to amend and constrained to support them till we haue reformed them And yet notwithstanding ye would make vs beleeue that S. Austin S. Ierome S. Ambrose S. Chrysostome S. Basil S. Athanasius S. Origen S. Irenaeus and Denys the disciple of S. Paul haue not only approued the superstition of those which worshipped the departed Saints but that euen themselues haue recommended it to the people aswell by their prayers addressed to the Virgin Mary and some other Saints as by the recitall of their vertues and merits Whereunto first of all I answere that many sentences haue been falsified and many annexed to the writings of the Fathers against their intention Which was easie to bee done because in their time the Art of Printing was not found out but copies only in written hand Secondly where as many books haue bin falsely published vnder the names of the Apostles which had been receiued if the Apostle S. Iohn who suruiued the others according to the testimony of S. Tertullian and Ierome had not foreseene it so many Treatises haue been deceitfully attributed to their successors as by their complaints appeareth To begin then with the writings of S. Clement Bishop of Rome S. Ierome in his Apologie against Ruffinus saith of him that hee made some bookes intituled Recognitions among which although there was a doctrine truly Apostolicall exposed in many texts vnder the person of the Apostle S. Peter yet they had mixed among them the doctrine of the Heretike Eumonius So that it seemed in sundrie places of them there is none but he that speaketh Eusebius also saith in his third booke and 35. chapter that it cannot bee cleerely knowne that the second Epistle and the Commentaries which are attributed to him be his because the ancient Fathers made no vse of this Epistle and that these Commentaries kept in no wise neither the stile nor the forme of the pure doctrine of the Apostles and containe in them the communication betweene Peter and Appion of which the ancients make no mention S. Epiphanius addeth that the Ebonians did vse certaine bookes intituled The Peregrinations of S. Peter written by S. Clement stuffed with falsehood and that S. Clement himselfe controlled theÌ„ by his owne epistles written to the Enoclycians Eusebius speaking of the booke intituled the Pastor in his third booke and third chapter saith That it is Apocrypha and that they were deceiued who thought that that Hermes which the Apostle S. Paul greeteth in his 16. chapter of the Epistle to the Romanes was the author thereof So likewise Erasmus of Roterdam saith that many bookes badly patched together haue bin annexed to S. Cyprians bookes to wit the Treatise of the Reuelation of S. Iohn Baptists head which is full of fables and superstitions that reciteth sundrie things happened a long while after S. Cyprians time The treatise of Sina and Sion against the Iewes which in no wise representeth neither the knowledge nor zeale of S. Cyprian They haue also mingled among S. Austins bookes the booke intituled The true and false penance which containeth that fine fable how S. Andrew seeing that the people would haue taken him away from the crosse whereunto they had bound him began to make this prayer to God Lord it is time that thou laiest my bodie in the graue suffer them not to take me downe aliue from this crosse It is time that my bodie should be interred c. In like manner Lewes Viues Valentine one of your best Catholikes complaineth in his annotations vpon the bookes of the Citie of God that many sentences are annexed to them which are not S. Austins They haue put into the books of S. Ierome the Commentaries of some of the Epistles of the New Testament which as S. Austin testifieth was composed by a Monke and a hereâ—ike called Pelagus Robert Bellarmine also maintaineth in his disputations that the booke written to Orosus and attributed to be Saint Austins is not his And many other bookes base and illegitimate and which euen your selues confesse to haue been falsely fathered on our Fathers and in no wise receiueable But to answere more particularly to your allegations You deceiue your selues in that you thinke your S. Denys Areopagite was the disciple of the Apostle S. Paul For in the booke of Celestial Hierarchies which you attribute to him he speaketh of his predecessors Clement and Ignatius which liued and suffered martyrdome vnder Traian the third persecutor of the Christians after Nero and the 14. Emperor which began to raigne about the yeere of Christ 100 and the thirtieth yeere after the decease of the Apostle S. Paul according to the calculation of your Bishop Treculphus This booke we haue also in suspition because wee finde in it no marke of the true disciple of the Apostle S. Paul neither in his language nor in his doctrine For there is no mention made therein for the abolishing of the ancient ceremonies of which the Apostle S. Paul very often disputeth in his Epistles neither doth hee say in any place thereof that that which he wrote he did it by his masters authoritie Therein hee doth but sport himselfe with deliberate discourses to teach the doctrine of the holy Gospell by obscure subtilties vaine speculations and very intricate He there treateth of Popes Prelats Priests Monks and of many other Orders which in the Apostles time were not in the Church nor a long while after Likewise to shew that he did dissent from the Apostles he applaudeth therein the Order of Monkes as the highest and most excellent of all others Causes wherefore Laurence Valla one of your chiefest Doctors flouts at such as thought this S. Denys to be the disciple of S. Paul and the author of this booke As Erasmus of Roterdam noteth in
sure when any point of doctrine is to be disputed or of the true sense of some texts in the Bible then to hold our selues to Gods law which is a faithfull witnesse according to the counsell of the Prophet Esay chap 8. verse 20. to giue the exposition of the law of God in expounding it by the Scripture it selfe imitating the example of Esdras and some other Doctors of the old Testament which is represented by Nehemiah before our eies in the 8. chapter and 2. verse Euen so when a question is of the true rule and manner of prayer there is nothing more expedient then to follow in all our prayers that only forme of prayer which our Lord Iesus Christ taught his Apostles as S. Tertullian and S. Cyprian shew vs by their excellent discourses touching the excellencie and perfection of this prayer And S. Austin in his epistle which he wrote to a Christian widow called Proba Wee say no other thing saith he then that which is contained in the Lords Prayer if we pray rightly and conueniently And whosoeuer should say any thing which is not agreeable with this Euangelicall prayer though he prayeth not vnlawfully yet he prayeth carnally and I know no reason why but that one may say he prayeth vnlawfully sith that such as are regenerated by the holy Ghost ought to pray spiritually By which admonition S. Austin signifieth to all Christians that all prayers which haue not their foundation in the prayer of our Lord Iesus Christ as are such which be addressed to the Saints departed are carnall and vnlawfull But to returne to your obiections where you say that you â—et slip in silence the miracles done through the inuocation of Saints and yet you send vs to the 22 booke of the Citie of God and we send you back againe to that which wee haue formerly noted to wit that Viues testifieth that many sentences haue been annexed to that booke of the Citie of God and for that reason we ought to giue no beleefe thereunto But rather as Origen witnesseth vpon Ieremiah it behoueth vs to call for witnesses the holy Scriptures forasmuch as without those witnesses our sense and discourses are of no credit which S. Austin also giueth vs to vnderstand by this exhortation that whatsoeuer wee would haue men to beleeue we must proue it by cleere testimonies of holy Scripture and vse them against the enemies of the Church And if we should grant you that many miracles haue been done by the inuocation of Saints yet you cannot with a good conscience gather froÌ„ thence that this seruice was pleasing to God seeing that the false prophets and ministers of Satan haue sought to set vp their impieties through the lustre of many miracles Thereupon Moses aduertiseth the people of his time saying in Deut. â—3 1. If there arise among you a Prophet or a dreamer of dreames and give thee a signe or wander and the signe and the wonder which he hath told thee come to passe saying Let vs go after other gods which thou hast not known 〈◊〉 let vs serue them Thou shalt not hearken vnto the words of that prophet or vnto that dreamer of dreames for the Lord your God proueth you to know whether you loue the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soule And Iesus Christ in the 24 of Matthew and 23 verse saith If any shall say vnto you loe here is Christ or there beleeue it not for there shall arise false Christs and false Prophets and shall shew great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they should deceiue the very elect Behold I haue told you before according to which Saint Paul writeth in the â— of Thesâ— 2. that the comming of the Sonne of perdition who sâ—â—ll sit as God in the temple of God and shall exalt himselfe against God and shall be by the working of Satan with all power and signes and lying wonders and in all 〈◊〉 of vnrighteousnesse among them that 〈◊〉 Whereupon S. Austin grounding himselfe saith on the 9. Psalme That Antichrist shall vse force in his empire and deceit in his miracles And in the treatise of Antichrist which is added to his bookes Antichrist saith he shall rise vp against the elect by three manner of waies by terrors by gifts and by miracles And Chrysostome speaking of the false Doctors on the seuenth chapter of S. Matthew They cast forth diuels saith he in the name of Christ hauing the spirit of the enemie or they rather doe not cast them foorth but seeme to cast them foorth through the collusion which they haue with the diuels and so alwaies they cast them foorth and neuer doe heale The diuels euermore crie before them as if they were chastized and they neuer come foorth of them as though they were afraid Behold therefore Theophylact teacheth vs in the explication of the seuenth chapter of S. Luke and namely on the second verse that preaching is confirmed by miracles and miracles by preaching for oftentimes diuers haue done wonders by the diuels but their preaching was not sound therefore their miracles also were not of God Which Anselmus appropriating to the miracles of Antichrist in his Commentaries vpon the second Epistle to the Thessalonians and second chapter These signes and wonders saith he shall be lying either because they should deceiue the mortall through magicall visions or else because that although they should be wonders and prodigious signes yet they should draw vnto lies such as beleeue in them Moreouer Meses recounteth in the booke of Exodus that Pharaohs Magicians haue imitated and counterfeited many miracles which he formerly had done in the countrie of Egypt Also Hippocrates reciteth in his book de Morbo Sacro that some Sorcerers in his time healed many of the falling sicknesse in making sacrifices and certaine prayers because they would be reputed as holy personages The like writeth Bodin of Appolonius Thyaneus and of some other Sorcerers which chased away diuels and did many other wonders through fainednesse and collusion This is that also whereof the Emperour Charles the Great would aduertise vs by his third and fourth bookes made vnder his owne name and approued by Pope Adrians Legats and many other Bishops of France Germany and Italie which were present in the Councel of Frankford in the yeere 794. There is great danger saith he in many miracles because there may be in them some craft of that crooked Serpent which doth transfigure himself into an Angel of light for many miracles are done by those Angels reuolted by Powers or rather by spirituall subtilties which communicate to diuers miserable wretches the gift of prophecying and doe many strange things through their officers of which sort those shal be which shall say Lord Lord haue we not prophecied in thy name and haue wee not cast out diuels in thy name and by thy name done many great workes To whom the Iudge will
then that you affirme that the holy Scripture teacheth vs that the departed Saints heare our prayers and wee contrariwise denie it then it is not in vs to confirme our negation but in you to ratifie your negation which is vnpossible for you notwithstanding you are so imprudent or rather so impudent as to say that wee may reade ouer the Bible as oft as we list yet we shall neuer produce thereout one only text contrary to your opinion If your conscience be not seared it hath alreadie conuicted you of falsehood by the reading of those two places which alreadie I haue quoted out of the 9. chapter and 16. verse of Eccle. and Esay 63. vers 16. where the holy Ghost guiding the pen of these two men of God teacheth vs that they which are departed this life haue no portion in our businesses which are done vnder the Sunne but that they are ignorant thereof Let vs now come to your demonstration that the Scripture faileth you not in this point for to awaken our spirits you first command vs to note this expresse text of Scripture that the Angels in heauen vnderstand our prayers seeing they are the reporters of then to the diuine Maiestie as appeareth by the same scripture Secondly it is an expresse text of scripture that the Saints shall be in heauen as the Angels according to the saying of the Sonne of God in the Gospell Whereunto you adde your conclusion that the Saints heare our prayers sith the Angels vnto whom they are likened heare them If some one should propound this your argument borrowed from Bellarmine to Scholars which haue heard the rules of Logick they would quickly smell out your deceit and would replie that you doe not aptlie appropriate it to the Saints departed because to conclude from thence according to the right forme and rule of Logicians that the Saints departed vnderstand our prayers you must first haue proued that Iesus Christ saith in the 20. chapter of S. Luke that the departed Saints are Angels and not as you make them like vnto Angels They would likewise reiect your reason and confirmation which you annex vnto this sentence that the Angels vnderstand our prayers because they are the reporters of them to the diuine Maiestie as appeareth by the holy Scripture Mark you not here a fine proofe to say it appeareth by the Scripture that the Angels report our prayers to God without quoting so much as one testimonie From hence it comes that hauing taken your principall peeces from Bellarmine you durst not alleage that place of holy Scripture which is in the 12. chapter and 15. verse of Toby where the Angel Raphael saith That hee is one of those seuen holy Angels which presents before the Maiestie of God the prayers of the Saints If it be in regard that you make conscience to confirme your proposition out of a booke which is Apocrypha I commend you and in that I preferre you before your Master Or if it be because you haue not read nor remembred well that text which he alleageth in his book of the blessednesse of the Saints I pardon you for it Touching the rest it seemes at the first sight that you make some stop at falsifying the 36. verse of the 20 chapter of S. Luke and of following therein the example of Bellarmine Richeome who in stead of saying as Christ did in answering the Sadduces that the Saints shall be to wit in the resurrection of the flesh like the Angels they turne this text as if Christ had said that they are like to the Angels But in the repetition of your argument trussed to your conclusion you shew your selfe to be of the same humour as your School-masters aboue said are seeing you change the future tense into the present to maintaine with them that the Saints are like to the Angels and that against the intention of our Soueraigne Lord and Master Iesus Christ who disputing against the Sadduces which denied the resurrection of the bodie and had propounded this question to him worthie to be laughed at touching a woman which had had seuen husbands whose wife she should be in the resurrection sheweth them vpon this occasion that the faithfull shall then be glorified euen in regard of their bodies which shall not bee mortall nor corruptible no more but as the spirits of the Angels are and consequently shall not be enclined to mariage for the maintaining of their race and posteritie but shall be like to the Angels which doe not marrie Now foreseeing through the agilitie of your spirit what we might replie on that aboue said place you thinke that you heare vs alreadie answere that this similitude of the Angels and Saints whereof our Lord speaketh in the Gospell consisteth only in their felicitie and blessednesse and not in their nature and office that is to say as it hath pleased you to expound it that the Angels and the Saints shall be in heauen equall and like each other because both of them shall be blessed enioying one selfesame glorie and felicitie Now as you can finde nothing therein to chaw vpon you grant vs this answere and make it to serue your turne as a fowler with his net to take and ensnare vs. For behold the argument which you ground vpon our answere is that seeing the felicitie and state of future life hindreth not the Angels from hearing the prayers of the mortall why is it not possible that the Saints being in the same felicitie with the Angels and like vnto them may not heare likewise our prayers aswell as they This text of scripture them sheweth that the Saints heare our prayers We denie the consequence of this argument If the felicitie of the Angels hindreth them not from hearing our prayers that it followeth from thence that the felicitie of the departed Saints hindreth not them also from the vnderstanding of our Supplications the reason is because the Angels notwithstanding their present felicitie haue receiued from God this charge to watch ouer vs and our safetie as it is written in the 34. Psalme For which cause the Apostle S. Paul calleth them administring spirits sent for their sakes that are to receiue the inheritance of saluation which the Scripture speaketh in no place of the Saints departed You repeate afterward your affirmation that the Saints deceased heare vs see vs and are not ignorant of that which is done vpon the earth For confirmation whereof you propound vs the example of Abraham who being dead and in Limbo knew many things which happened among the people of the children of Israel as one may perceiue by the 16. chapter of S. Luke For first of all he knew that the people had the bookes of Moses and the Prophets the ancientest whereof was Moses which had been written more then foure hundred yeares after the death of Abraham Secondly he knew the life which the rich Glutton led vpon the earth and what miserie