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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A17912	A necessitie of separation from the Church of England, prooved by the nonconformists principles Specially opposed vnto Dr. Ames, his Fresh suit against humane ceremonies, in the point of separation only. Also Dr. Laiton, Mr. Dayrel, and Mr. Bradshaw, are here answered, wherein they have written against us. With a table in the later end, of the principal occurrents in this treatise. By Iohn Canne, pastor of the ancient English church, in Amsterdam.	Canne, John, d. 1667?	1634 (1634)	STC 4574; ESTC S117015	174,263	303

be foolish false and superstitious But I desire the reader to observe how wittily he confirmeth the Assumption It shall be sufficient sayth he that we can set forth vnto him such a ministery in sundrie of our Church Assemblies of which all those points may be truely verified Who would have thought that Mr. Bradsh having blotted many leaves of his booke with meere scoffing at Mr. Iohnson about his Logick should so grossely overshoot himselfe in termes of reasoning For what wise man but he would have laid downe a Position that comprehended indefinitely generally all the ministers of their Assemblies and to prove it saith we can shew some such It seemeth then that those some such must make all the rest true Intruth so he inferres or else his argument as he saith often of Mr. Iohnson is crackt braind and lacks not truth only but sence also There are some merchants who to put off the false wares which lie upon their hands will shew the buyer a little that is good and by this meanes cunningly shift all the rest upon him and so deceive him The like subtilty useth Mr. Bradsh here and often in his booke that he might perswade the reader to beleeve that all their Ministers and Churches are true he sheweth him some of the best in hope that under these he shall craftily put all the rest upon him I mention these his deceiveable shifts the oftner that we may have hereafter more honest dealing If they will justifie all their Ministers and Churches let them say so directly If but som few as in their writings they still intimate I desire them to speake it out plainely and not to cary the thing so covertly as if they would have the poore people to beleeve that they meant all when themselves are perswaded the greatest number are false and Antichristian Another reason which he brings to prove their ministery Lawfull is because they professe the Pope to be Antichrist renounce all Ecclesiastical homage to him and maintaine all the members of the Church of Rome to be Hereticks and Idolaters c. To this I say quid verba audiam cum facta videam It is true I know many great errours of that Church they opppose and have left notwithstanding they retaine the selfe same Ministery Church Government Service Courts Canons c. which they brought out from thence uphold them still I say to the uttermost of their strength and power and hate revile imprison banish kill c. those which will not conforme thereto And hence it is the Papists say that from their treasure house the religion now established in England hath learned the forme of Chrining marying Churching of women visiting of the sicke burying of the dead and sundry other like as the book translated out of theirs declared So Iacobus Gretzerus alleadgeth against the Reformed Churches their Service-booke for their Popish holydayes Dr. Tucker and their Late booke of Canons both for the signe of the Crosse for kneeling in the act of receiving the Sacrament For the whole Hierarchy from the Archbishop downewards divers other their superstitions So Cornelius Scultingius citeth Whitgift and taketh whole leaves out of him for defence of their Hierarchie Stapleton also useth the foresaid Doctors arguments to uphold thereby their discipline and professeth that they are built upon one foundation I could multiply authors of this nature but it needs not only let it be here minded that all these testimonies are acknowledged to be true of the Nonconformists Is not therefore their profession great against the Pope they clal him they say Antichrist and the Beast c. Yet notwithstanding in respect of many maine and foundamental Orders and Ordinances of his Church they wallke along hand in hand with him So that they are much like to one which cals a woman c. Whoore Whoore and lyeth with her all the while in the bed and commits folly with her Nothing is here said but the former thinges againe repeated Indeed he undertooke to answer certaine demaunds but he kept himselfe off so covertly from the points that he hath left them farre more obscure darke then they were before For this cause I have thought it necessarie to propound unto them 13. questions all gathered from Mr. Bradsh shifting answeres idle putt offs with request that they would answere them directly and sincerely and from the scriptures and so doubtlesse the controversie betweene them us will be brought the sooner to an end 1. Whether the office of Lecturers in the Ecclesiastical Assemblies of England be not new and strange from the scriptures If not whether they be Apostles Evangelists Pastors Teachers Elders c. 2. Whether the civill Magistrate hath power to set over the Churches of Christ in his Dominions such Commissioners and overseers as the present Hierarchie is or no 3. What be those Ecclesiastical Officers which some true Churches in England have these many yeares beene without either all o● cheifest of them 4. Whether the calling enterance administration and maintenance of any of the publicke Ministers of the Church of England be unlawful and Antichristian or no 5. Who are those Ecclesiasticall Officers in the Church of England which neither in name nor in deed are true as he himself confesseth 6. Whether it be lawfull for the Ministers of the Gospell to be maintained by tithes and offerings c. in the manner and forme as it is practifed now in England or no 7. Whether all the Parish Assemblies of England be true visible Churches or no 8. Where are those Churches in our Kingdom from whence we have separated which doe consist as now they stand of a companie of people called and separated from the world and the false worship and wayes thereof by the word of God and are joyned together in the fellowship of the Gospel by voluntarie profession of faith and obedience of Christ 9. What are those parts and parcells in the booke of Common prayer which is not the true worship of God whereof he speaketh 10. Whether it be Lawfull to have communion with the English Leiturgie as it is ordinarily now used in their Churches 11. If the true worship of God be prescribed in the booke aforesaid we demaund then in what part thereof the same is contained 12. Whether those which joyne to the Ecclesiastical Ministerie Worship and Orders of their Cathedral or Parishional Assemblies in those things which are not performed therein according to the true meaning intent of their Lawes doe sin or no 13. What is the true intent and meaning of these Lawes and to whom doth it properly belong to give the interpretation of them Thus having finished what I purpose to write for this time I commend now the same to the best acceptance of every wel disposed reader Beseeching God to make us more and more of one mind in the truth and to give us all hearts to walke sincerily in it untill

with may body I thee worship for herein the new maried man makes an idol Of his wife I omitt many other heathenish and Antichristian toyes which the Nonconformists relate to be observed herein whereby saith the author of the Admonition they make rather a maygaime of marriage then a holy institution of God As for their restraint of marriage in Lent and other certaine times they call it the doctrine of devils devised by Pope Nicholas in the yeare 871. And since vpheld by his vncleane birds for filthie lucre sake But here the Nonconformists would have vs to take notise that howsoever the Hierarchie forbid somtime this thing yet any man may have a dispensation for mony and then those holy times shall have no pollution by marriage such vertue mony hath with it or such powr it hath with these base caterpillers Concerning Burials this they say All prayers either over or for the dead are not onely superstitious and vaine but also are Idolatrie and against the plain scriptures of God No such thing was vsed in the Apostles time as for their prescript forme of service appointed for this businesse it is taken wholy from the stincking portuis and for this cause they name themselves Popish apes Beside prayer for the dead is maintayned and partlie gathered out of some of their prayers As for the white or balck crosse set vpon the dead corps ringing a threefould peale the practice is Popish mourning in Black garments for the dead if it be not hypocriticall yet it is superstitious and heathenish funerall sermons they also vtterly condemne because they are put in the place of Trentalls and many other superstitious abuses follow thereby To be breife the Pre●sts meeting the corps at the Church stile with the clarke in their surplusses the manner of laying the dead in the grave viz. East and West that he may rise with his face to the East the Preist offering and mortuarie the bread and other thing given to the poore distinction of Burials as some in the chauncel some in the Church and some in the Churchya●des all these are said to be naught idolatrous vnlawfull and therefore the Nonconformists will have the dead to be buried in this sort holding no other way lawfull namely that it be conveyed to the place of Burial with some honest company of the Church without either singing or reading yea without all kind of ceremony heretofore vsed other then that the dead be committed to the grave with such gravity and sobriety as those that be present may seeme to feare the judgements of God and to hate sin which is the cause of death and thus doe the best and right reformed Churches bury their dead witout any ceremonies of praying or preaching at thē We com next to their Sacraments which are as they say sinfully mangled Prophaned and wickedly ministred The prescript sorme of service whereby their Lord supper is consecrated and administred is taken wholy out of the Popish dunghil the masse-b●oke and such are the●● inventions Prophanations and superstitions vsed in this ordinance as the Nonconformists professe that they eate not the Lords supper but playe a pageant of their own to blind the people and keepe them still in superstition farre from the simplicitie of Christes supper to make the seely soules beleeve that they have an English masse which is too true faith the author in the margent and so put no difference betwixt truth and falshood betwixt Christ and Antichrist betwixt God and the devil I might here lay dowe every particular thinge which they doe herein as the Preists standing at the North side of the table his begining with the Lords prayer and a collect rehearsing afterwards the ten commaundements and the creed then reading a short exhortation to those which are minded to receive their falling downe and rysing vp againe many times together their manner of consecrating the bread and wine taking it Kneeling the ministers going vp and downe to give it to every one with his owne hand his speaking in the singular number Take thou c. Theyr saying over againe the Pater noster with singing piping surplusse c. All these say the inconform are disorders superstitions Prophanation of Scriptures and don contrary to the practice of the primitive Churches and just after the manner of the Papists Their publick Baptisme is ful of childish and superstitious toyes and as for the prayers vsed therein they are either foolish or false And no marvaile seeing they are also taken out of the cursed mass-masse-booke The conjured font as they name it was brought in by Pius the first in the yeare 147. And Pope Higinus brought in Godfathers and Godmothers in the yeare 143. both which they call pecces of poperie the interogatories ministered to the infant a foolish thinge agreat mockerie of Gods service whereby an occasion is given to men to vtter a lie before the Lord. That the Godfathers and Godmothers shill promise that the child doth beleeve and doth forsake the devil c. Is a thing wickedly put vpon them and baptisme by this meanes exceedingly prophaned Of the crosse we have spoken before there is yet one thing touching it which the reformists wish vs to observe That is a most wicked practise of their vngracious Bishops these whelpes of Antichrist will have infants signed forsooth with the signe of the crosse In token that hereafter they shall not be ashamed to confesse the faith of Christ c. And to fight against sin c. Now marke what notorius mockers of God these are For if any one who is thus signed doth afterwards confesse the faith of Christ against Arminians and Papists and fights against the maine workes of the devill to weet the Popish Ceremonies goverment worship ministerie c. They will surely rayse vp against him the greatest persecution that may be he must either forsake his owne countrie or they will kill him in prison Moreover touching private Baptisme and ministring the Lords Supper in their houses this geare they say is repugnant and against Gods word in effect like to a Popish Masse a popish and superstitious practise foolishly and sinfully first taken up For the Sacraments were not ordained of God to be used thus as Charmes and Sorceries but left to the congregation and necessarily annexed to the scriptures as seales of the same yet not tyed to the material Churches made of dead stones but to the church made of livelie stones If therefore the congregation be in a wood house or cave the Sacraments may be administred in a wood house or cave but the same must be don in the sight of the assemblie for they are irrigiously handled when they are administred otherwise Baptizing by women they also condemne and hold it to be no more the holy Sacrament of Baptisme then any other dayly or ordinarie washing of the child Lent fast they say

was ordained by Pope Telesphorus in the yeare 136. and they keepe it England for the fame end that the Papists doe Iustlie therefore is it named a Romish Error a superstitious fast The service appointed for that time is against the seriptures and Gods name prophaned by the curses and adjurations then used For their other fasts they are said to be monuments of Idolatrie devised of Antichrist in all the rites and orders of them superstitious and directlie against Gods commaundements As for wendesdayes frydayes and saterdayes fasts Bonifacius is said to ordaine them in the year 315. And Pope Calixtin in the yeare 206. ordained Imber fastes And in the yeare 425. another Romish Beast ordained Saints Eves fasts And all this trash dung was first devised by Montanus that notable Heretick as Mr. Cartw. observeth from Eusebius and for what use serues all this trumperie but only to keepe out and hinder true fasting indeed The observation of holy dayes as Christmasse Circumcision Epiphanie Purification and all other of the saints is a breach of the second commaundement and herein some part of the abominations of the Romish religion is practised Such therefore as impose this upon mens consciences doe it without any warrant of Gods word and therefore the same cannot be kept lawfully Many good reasons for this are shewed in their writings as the reader may see if he please in the places noted Moreover they doe affirme that the whole prescript service appointed for these Saints dayes is idolatrous Antichristian Of the same nature are all their ordinarie collects Pope Gregorie Celasius they say ordained them and they have them word for word as they stand in the Blasphemous Massebooke I might here shew how some of their Collects are charged with Arianisme others with Poperie Arminianisme Many with lies and manifest contradictions But to be short they tell us in one word that the saying of them is not Praying but indeed wicked pratling As for the Letanie well naturing the name of a laborious service in the dust and durt for so Homer and others useth the same it is borrowed from the practise of the Heathen as Causabon out of Dionysius Habicarnasse observeth And is in verydeed nothing but an impure Masse of conjuring and charming Battologies whereby the name of God is highly prophaned his house and worship abused Gods people by it abandoned the sanctuarie and the prophane love no worship so well as it The Epistles and Gospells read in their Churches is a practise taken wholy from Rome and they use the verie same which the others doe This chapping hacking of the scriptures this rending of it a peeces one from another is contrarie to the order which God hath ordained and his churches practised from time to time and therefore the Nonconformists have desired that it might be taken away as an evill thing Againe in those Epistles Gospells which the Prelates cause superstitiouslie thus to be read There are sundry words and sentences of holy scriptures left out which were given by divine inspiration for the profit of the whole church and many words and sentences of their owne foolish braine added to the text as parts of it yea in many places such absurd things are put as no reasonable sence can be made thereof Besides very often the meaning of the Holy Ghost is perverted by a false interpretation of the text and sundry places applyed to the countenancing of some points of false doctrine All this is shewed largely by the ministers of Lincolne in the Abrigement and the like they say of the Psalmes in the booke of common prayer the prescript number whereof and Lessons as the English Preists now observe were devised by Pope Gregorie the seventh in the yeare 1073. That any of the Apocrypha should be publikely read the Nonconformists hold it utterlie unlawfuli 1. Because to use any word publikelie in the church beside the written word of God contayned in the Canonicall scriptures is condemned by the second commaundement 2. In the church of the Iewes in the Apostles time only Moyses and the Prophets were read 3. The scriptures are sufficient both for doctrine and manners and were given to that end 4. It is the proper office of Christ to be the teacher of his church and therefore no writing may be appointed to be read in the congregation for instruction of manners but only such as have been indited by his spirit 5. Many by this meanes are brought into a great error thinking that the same is scripture 6. These Apocripha bookes containe a number of shamefull lies horrible blasphemies vaine vanities plaine contradictions ridiculous fooleries Athean Impieties Fables fitter for T●l●machus and Aeneas then for Gods people Notwithstanding though these bookes be thus false wicked and abominable yet in their assemblies many of them are commaunded to be read for first lessons yea under the name of the holie scriptures of the old Testament without any note of difference from the Canonicail as the lying story of Susanna under the name of Daniel 13. and in as great a measure for their proportion as the other Moreover many of the Apocryphall chapters are to be read twise in one yeare and some thrice but so are not any of the Canonical chapters of the Old Testament but a great part of thē of the New also by the order which their cōmon prayerbooke prescribeth are not to be read at all in their churches Lastly the Nonconf tell us that these idle Legends are read upon their great holy dayes when the church assemblies are wont to be best frequented and oftimes the holy scriptures must give place to them as tending more to edification and therefore may not be so well spared as the other Reading of Homilies in the church which is a cushion for idle and blind Priests to rest upon is said to be foolish fond and vnlawfull a practise never heard of in the church in the Apostles time neither indeed is it a meanes to beget faith but the instrument of foolish and idoll sheapheards As the Prophets therfore might not in calling the people together blow any trumpets but those which were made and set a part for that purpose by the commaundement of God so ought not the ministers of God to expound or read openly in the congregation any writings but onlie the Canonicall Scriptures which the Lord hath set a part and sanctifyed for that use Here by the way I wish the reader to note well the last words viz. that no writings ought to be read in the congregation but the Canonicall Scriptures This Position is often affirmed by the Learnedst of the Nonconformists namely Mr. Cartwright D. Chadd●rton c. Hence then it must follow that all formes of Prayer devised by men are unlawfull to be read in the congregation and therefore where ever this is practised men ought necessarily to abstaine from joyning therewith

visible Church which is a company of people called and separated from the world by the word of God and joyned together by voluntary profession of the faith of Christ in the fellow ship of the Gospel Before we ●ome to examin the reasons if they may be so termed which he alleageth against this definition I desire the reader to minde it well that we herein do say no more then what in effect is fully acknowledged by the Nonconformists Conformists the Church of England the learned generally and all the reformed Churches upon earth as is to be seene in their books here named Yea Mr. Brad. although no friend of the Separatists yet confesseth the whole as it is here laid downe to be true and good Notwithstanding this man commeth boldly forth against us as if he had been either asleepe all his life time or lived in some unknowne parts of the world and so could not tell what any body had said about this thing And now for his reasons in which he is as confused as is the subject for which he pleadeth notwithstanding such as I finde here and there disorderly written of him I will reduce into some particular heads The maine and chiefe argument wherewith he fighteth against us for saying a true visible Church is a company of people called and separated from the world is because hypocrites and reprobates may beein the Church And to proove this he is very large and tedious for I dare say more then halfe of his booke is spent about it in alleaging for it Scriptures Examples and Reasons But a few words will serve for answer to it in regard he talkes of a thing which neither helpes him nor disadvantageth us for the question betweene them and us hath ever beene about the true and naturall members whereof Gods Church is orderly gathered and planted and not about the decayed and degenerate estate thereof But of this he saith nothing onely reasoneth much to this purpose If a mans body may have sores boyles broken limmes c. then is not the body whole and sound in the definition If in a garden vineyard or orchard after the constitution there grow weeds thornes and thistles then cannot the same in the description be said to bee planted at first of all good herbes vines and trees But the first is true therefore the second Now if such Philosophie be to be laughed at then truely much more is Mr. Dayr Divinitie here to be pittyed for he denieth our definition to wit that a true visible Church in the first collection consisteth of a people called and separated from the world and why because forsooth afterwards some of them may fall into unlawfull and sinfull courses If all our writings should bee read over yet will it not be found that ever we have denied but many hypocrites may be in the true Church yea open and vile transgressours but here lyeth the poynt if any shall affirme that the same may be first gathered of knowne lewd and unconverted men that indeed wee deny utterly and can proove the contrary or if they shall say that obstinate and incorrigible sinners may lawfully be suffered therein this also we affirme to be untrue But if they say that in a true visible Church there may be great evils committed yea and a long time tolerated wee assent unto it Howbeit it is certaine as Dr. Ames saith this forbearance is a grieveus sinne before God If Mr. Dayr therefore had well understood what our negative and affirmative positions are hee might have spared most of his writing For throughout his booke he hath most falsely reported of us by insinuating as if we held all of the visible Church to be saved and that no wickednesse therein can be committed now our words tend onely to shew what a Church is and how every member ought to walke but if in some respects they bee not so yet may the Congregation notwithstanding be true and good Mr. Dayr tells us verie often of the sinnes committed in the Iewish Church so in Corinth Pergamus c. If he were alive I would aske him whether they did well herein If he should say yea then were he a blasphemer if nay then he gave us the whole cause and so might cast his booke into the fyre For the thinge which we affirm is that every member of the church ought to be holy not that they are allwayes so but should be so and it is their great fault they are otherwise And here the reader may observe how greatly he hath mistaken the matter For whereas Mr. Barrow Mr. Ainsw and others doe shew from the scriptures what a true Church is whereof gathered how every member should walke how abuses are to be reformed c. He either through ignorance or mallice or both still inferreth from their writings that they held perfection of Churches that there can be no Hypocrite or reprobate in the Church c. Things groundlesly collected of him Of the same nature are the reports which many of them publish dayly in their Sermons and Bookes namely that the main cause of our Separation is because wicked men are suffered in their church But this is untrue for howsoever as I said before such a tolleration can not be justified yet this is not properly the reason but because their Parishes were at first constituted as now they stand of the members of Antichrist to wit the idolatrous Papists and of all other kind of most notorious sinners as whorems witches atheists swearers usurers cursers scoffers at religion c. This prophane multitude without any profession of faith and repentance were forced and compelled by human authority in the beginning of QElizabeths raigne to be members of their Church and so have continued they and their seed ever since contrary to the expresse word of God and this is so evident and certaine as the Nonconformists acknowledge it most true beside we leave them in respect of their ministery worship and Church government which is also prooved unlawfull and Antichristian by their owne testimony Another exception which he taketh against our description is because we say a people called by the word of God this he denies to be true and affirmes that men may come to be members of the visible Church and not be called by the word and therefore verie unfitly is it placed in the description of a visible Church pag. 62. 63. Ans We need not wonder when a man undertakes to justifie a bad cause that he useth ordinarily vile and profane arguments for it First this which he affirmeth is directly against the Holy Scriptures of God 2. Contrarie to all example in the old and new Testament 3. Wholy against the doctrine of his brethren and fellow Preists and the learned everie where c 4. The Scriptures which he names are both untruly and unadvisedly applyed of him for first touching that in Exod. 12. 38. Howsoever many Egyptians