Selected quad for the lemma: book_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	work_n	worthy_a	youth_n	13	3	7.8100	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10345	The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.	Rainolds, John, 1549-1607.; Hart, John, d. 1586. aut; Rainolds, John, 1549-1607. Sex theses de Sacra Scriptura, et Ecclesia. English. aut	1584 (1584)	STC 20626; ESTC S115546	763,703	768

of the forme or of the end I meane as either wrought by deceit or to deceit by deceit ifmen did counterfeit the voice to deceit if they hearde it miraculously in deede As it is writen touching the man of sinne that his coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and with lying signes and wonders and with all deceiuablenesse of vnrighteousnesse among them that perish because they receyued not the loue of truth that they might be saued Take héede M. Hart least that which foloweth be verified in you Therefore shall God send them strong delusion to beleue lyes that al they may be damned who beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteou●nesse Hart. Take heede vnto your selfe M. Rainoldes that you offend not in this vnrighteousnesse by abusing that famous Doctor of the Church S. Thomas of Aquine For the holy Father Pope Pius the fifth hath honoured his memorie with a double greater feast in his countrie and with a double feast throughout all Christendome to be kept as solemnly as the holy dayes of the foure Doctours of the Church are kept Wherefore you ought to thinke so much the more reuerently of all that he hath writen and not to charge him with forging and falsifying if he haue missed ought but rather to suppose that if the autours haue not that which he alleageth yet he had read it alleaged by some other and of a good affection to the Sée of Rome he thought it to be rightly alleaged and wrote it Rainoldes Of a good affection As you will Let it be so He with such dealing of a good affection hath feasted the Pope and the Pope againe of a good affection hath double feasted him But you graunt then that Doctors of the Church may bee deceyued as through ouersight so through affection too and that these exceptions against them are lawfull Hart. Lawfull if you proue that they be so deceiued For they may be I graunt Rainoldes What And may they not be deceiued also or rather seeme to be deceyued through the affection or ouersight of other men Hart. Of other men How Rainoldes As when a Greeke writer is translated into Latin the translator maketh him sometimes to say that which he neuer meant And before printing the scriueners who copied out bookes with hand committed sundrie scapes Which likewise befalleth vnto printers now So there may be a faute in an autour without the autours faute through ouersight of printers or scriueners or translators For example in the story ecclesiasticall of Eusebius translated by Rufinus it is alleaged out of Clemens that Peter Iames Iohn although Christ preferred them almost before all yet they tooke not the honour of primacie to them selues but ordeined Iames who was surnamed Iust Bishop of the Apostles This had béene a notable testimonie for Iames against the primacie of Peter But I alleaged it not because as I séeke to winne you to the truth so I séeke to doo it by true and right meanes Whereof this were none being an ouersight as it appeereth of Rufinus For in the Greeke Eusebius it is that they ordeined him Bishop of Ierusalem not Bishop of the Apostles Hart. That may be the printers faute or the scriueners perhaps who wrote it out not his who translated it Rainoldes But I thinke it rather the translators faulte For Marianus Scotus doth cite out of Methodius the same touching Iames that they ordeined him Bishop of the Apostles Which belike was taken out of the storie of Eusebius doon into Latin by Rufinus And he hath erred often in in turning Gréeke writers as also his translation of Iosephus sheweth Though I may not charge him with all the faultes therein For where it is auouched by some that Iosephus holdeth the bookes of Maccabees to be holy scripture as in déede he séemeth to doo in the Latin in the Greeke he saith not any such thing nay he doth teach the contrarie but it is vnlikely this came from Rufinus who helde him selfe the Maccabees not to be canonical Howbeit if you say that the Gréeke copie which he translated of Eusebius had that word amisse through the scriueners faulte I will not striue against you But a more certaine example of the faultinesse in scriueners first and printers after is found in Optatus in that he affirmeth Peter was called Cephas because he was head of the Apostles Apostolorum caeput Petrus vnde Cephas appellatus est Upon the which place your lawier doth note that where he had thought it to be an ouersight of a man dreaming that the Syriake word which singifieth a stone is the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth a head now he ghessed rather that the words unde Cephas appellatus est were some foolish glose writen rashly in the margent and then interlaced into the text by scriueners Hart. Like enough But you haue no harme by this glose For though you blot it out yet Optatus saith that Peter was head of the Apostles Rainoldes Neither haue we any harme by that text For I haue shewed before it maketh nought for the Papacie But we may haue harme by that kind of gloses chiefely sith as Viues obserueth on S. Austin vpon the like occasion some glosers haue defiled all the writings of noble autours with such vncleane handling of them Hart. Will you make an ende of excepting against the Fathers and let vs heare at length the Fathers speake themselues Rainoldes The fathers them selues With a very good will But looke that you bring me the Fathers them selues For which is my last exception and so an ende there are many bookes entitled to Fathers which the Fathers made not nay whereof sundry were made by such youthes as are not worthy to beare the Fathers shooes The workes of S. Ierom are abroade in nine volumes of the which nine as good as three are none of his And yet Vitae patrum a legend how wrongfully fathered on S. Ierom your Espencaeus Canus shew is not amongst them Though there are amongst them slippes of the same tree a barbarous and sottish fable as Canus calleth it of the natiuitie of S. Marie and many other treatises of the same kinde which Erasmus hath refuted most diligently rightly The workes of S. Austin haue not béene tampred with so much in this sort Notwithstāding there is not aboue one or two of his ten volumes that hath not more or fewer such pamphlets patched to it Not onely by the iudgement and censure of Erasmus which yet you sée how Canus estéemeth in S. Ierom but also of the Louanists whose censures are the censures of many of your best Diuines and they shew that sundry things beare S. Austins name whereof some are vnlearned some lewde and heretical But what do I speake of Ierom and Austin when there is scarse any amongst all the

the shew of wordes UUherefore it was néedfull sith we séeke herein to finde out Christes will that first we agreed what way the right sense of the scripture may be knowne UUhich séeing you would haue me to fetch from the Pope and I haue no lust to go vnto Rome nor thinke it lodgeth in the Vatican so that by this way no agréement can be made or ende of controuersie hoped for I will take a shorter and a surer way confessed by vs both to be a good way whereby the right sense of the scripture may be found and so the will of Christ be knowne Hart. UUhat way may that be Rainoldes To learne of Christ him selfe the meaning of his word and let his spirit teach it that is to expound the scripture by the scripture A golden rule to know and try the truth from errour prescribed by the Lord and practised by his seruants for the building of his church from age to age through all posteritie For the holie Ghost exhorting the Iewes to compare the darker light of the Prophetes with the cléerer of the Apostles that the day-brigtnesse of the Sonne of righteousnes may shine in their hartes saith that no prophecy of Scripture is of a mans owne interpretation because in the prophecie that is the scripture of the Prophetes they spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost not as the will of man did fansie UUhich reason sith it implieth as the Prophetes so the Apostles and it is true in them all the holie men of God spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost it followeth that all the scripture ought to be expounded by God because it is inspired of God as natures light hath taught that he who made the law should interpret the law This rule commended to vs by the prescript of God and as it were sanctified by the Leuites practise in the olde Testament and the Apostles in the new the godlie auncient Pastors and Doctors of the church haue followed in their preaching their writing their deciding of controuersies in Councels UUherefore if you desire in déede the churches exposition and would so faine finde it you must go this way this is the churches way that is the churches sense to which this way dooth bring you For S. Austin whose doctrine your selfe doo acknowledge to be grounded on the lawes the maners the iudgementes of all the catholike church whom you call a witnesse of the sincere truth and catholike religion such a witnesse as no exception can be made against who assureth you as you say not onely of his owne but also of the common the constant faith and confession of the ancient Fathers and the Apostolike church this S. Austin hath written foure bookes of Christian doctrine wherein he purposely entreateth how men should vnderstand the Scripture and expound it The summe of all his treatise doth aime at this marke which I haue pointed too that the meaning of the Scripture must be learned out of the Scripture by the consideration of thinges and wordes in it that the ende whereto the matter whereof it is all writen be marked in generall and all be vnderstood according to that end and matter that al be read ouer ouer those things chiefly noted which are set downe plainly both precepts of life and rules of beliefe because that all things which concerne beliefe and life are plainly written in it that obscure darke speeches be lightned and opened by the plaine and manifest that to remoue the doubt of vncertaine sentences the cleere and certaine be followed that recourse be had vnto the Greeke and Hebrue copies to cleare out of the fountaines if the translation be muddie that doubtfull places bee expounded by the rule of faith which we are taught out of the plainer places of the scripture that all the circumstances of the text bee weighed what goeth before what commeth after the maner how the cause why the men to whom the time when euery thing is saide to be short that still wee seeke to know the will and meaning of the Authour by whom the holie Ghost hath spoken if we finde it not yet giue such a sense as agreeth with the right faith approued by some other place of scripture if a sense be giuen the vncertaintie wherof cannot bee discussed by certaine and sure testimonies of scripture it might be proued by reason but this custome is dangerous the safer way far is to walke by the scripture the which being shadowed with darke and borowed words when we mind to search let either that come out of it which hath no doubt and controuersie or if it haue doubt let it be determined by the same scripture through witnesses to be found vsed thence wheresoeuer that so to conclude all places of the scriptures be expounded by the scriptures the which are called Canonical as being the Canon that is to say the rule of godlines and faith Thus you sée the way the way of wisedome and knowledge which Christ hath prescribed the church hath receiued S. Austin hath declared both by his preceptes and his practise both in this treatise and in others agréeably to the iudgement of the auncient Fathers Which way sith it is lyked both by vs and you though not so much followed of you as of vs I wish that the woorthinesse thereof might perswade you to practise it your selfe but it must enforce you at least to allow it Hart. I graunt it neither can nor ought to be denyed that euery one of those things and specially if they be ioined all togither doo helpe very much to vnderstand the scriptures rightly But yet they are not so sure and certaine meanes as some other are which we preferre before them Neither do they helpe alwaies nay sometimes they do hurt rather and deceiue greatlie such as expound the Scripture after them This is not onelye said but also proued at large out of the Doctors and Fathers by that worthie man of great wit and iudgement our countriman M. Stapleton Doctor of Diuinitie the Kinges Professor of controuersies in the vniuersitie of Doway Of whose most wholesome worke entitled A methodicall demonstration of doctrinall principles of the faith one booke is wholly spent to shew the meanes way and order how to make authenticall interpretation of the Scriptures In the which hee layeth this for a ground that the Scripture cannot be rightly vnderstood but by the rule of faith Whereupon he condemneth the Protestantes opinion that the sense of Scriptures must be fetched out of the Scriptures Which errour of yours to ouerthrow the more fully he deliuereth foure meanes of expounding the Scriptures the first very certaine and sure the rule of faith the next no lesse certaine the practise of the church the third at least probable the consent of the Fathers the last most

to dispose to loose and bind These sayings are alleged by Thomas of Aquine out of S. Cyrils worke entitled the treasure But in S. Cyrils treasure there are no such base coines to be founde Wherefore either Thomas coined them him selfe for want of currant money or tooke them of some coiner and thought to trie if they would go Hart. Doo you know what iniurie you doo to that blessed man S. Thomas of Aquine to whose charge you lay so great a crime of forgerie Rainoldes None I at all to him whose counterfeits I discrie But he did great iniurie to the poore Christians whom hée abused with such counterfeits Your Saint-maker of Rome did canonize him for the holinesse of his life and learning The greatest triall of it was in his seruice to that Sée And are you loth to haue it knowne Hart. But why should you thinke either him to be the counterfeiter or the sayings to be counterfeit when as Cope sheweth they are alleaged not only by him but by other too Namely by that worthie and most learned Cardinall Iohn of Turrecremata who was at the Councell of Basill before him by Austin of Ancona yea by Graecians themselues who were at the councell of Florence Andreas Bishop of Colossae and Gennadius Scholarius the Patriarke of Constantinople Of whom when the former said in the Councell that Cyrill in his treasures had very much extolled the authority of the Pope none of all gainesaid him The later in a treatise that hee wrote for the Latins against the Graecians touching fiue pointes whereof one is the Popes supremacy citeth the same testimonies although perhaps not all which S. Thomas of Aquine doth out of Cyrill Yet you amongst so many choose him whom you may carpe at and thinke that wordes alleaged by them all are counterfeites Rainoldes Counterfeites are counterfeites though they go thorough twenty hands Al these whom you name out of Harpsfieldes Cope did liue long after Thomas and séeme to haue alleaged S. Cyrill on his credit as Cope himselfe doth also Wherefore I could not think that they had béene the coiners of that which was before they were But Thomas is the first with whom I finde the words and therefore greatest reason to laie the fault on him vnlesse he shew from whom he had them At least séeing I know the words are not Cyrils whose Thomas saith they be I did him no iniurie I trust when I said that either he receiued them at some coyners handes or coyned them him selfe Hart. Although the wordes are not to be found now in those partes of Cyrils treasure which are extant yet that is not sufficient to proue that either Thomas or some other forged them For Melchior Canus affirmeth that heretikes haue maimed that booke and haue razed out all those things which therin pertained to the Popes authoritie Which same thing to be done by them in the Commentaries of Theophylact vpon Iohn the Catholikes haue found and shewed Rainoldes Mée thinkes you and Canus deale against vs as the men of Doryla did against Flaccus Whom when they accused out of their publike recordes and their recordes were called for they said that they were robbed of them vpon the way by I know not what shepheardes You accuse vs that we deny the Pope his right of the supremacy The recordes by which you proue it his right are the wordes of Cyrill Cyrils wordes are called for that they may be séene You say they are not extant you are robbed of them by I know not what heretikes Whereon to put a greater likelihood you say further that heretikes haue done an other robbery in Theophylact as they are charged by Catholikes And this doo you say but you say it onely you bring no proofe you name no witnesse you shew no token of it If such accusations may make a man guiltie who shall be innocent Hee that should haue dealt-among the heathens so would haue bene counted rather a slaunderer then an accuser Hart. Admitte that the words were not razed perhaps out of any booke of Cyrill which we haue Yet might they be in some of them which are lost or not set forth in Latin For we haue no more then fouretéene bookes of his treasure whereas the two and thirtieth is cited by the Fathers in the sixth general Councell And this is enough to remoue suspicion of forgery from Thomas and other who alleage them Rainoldes Nay although the two and thirtieth be mentioned by the Fathers there yet meant they no more of Cyrill then we haue For that which in our Latin edition is the twelfth is the two and thirtieth in the Grecians count Hart. This is an answere which I neuer heard It hath no likelyhood of truth Rainoldes Peruse you the place which toucheth that of Cyrill and the wordes them selues will proue it more then likely Hart. The Councel hath it thus Hoc sanctus Cyrillus in trigesimo secundo libro Thesaurorum docet epistolam ad profanos explanans nec enim vnam naturalem operationem dabimus esse Dei creaturae vt neque id quod creatum est ad diuinam deducamus essentiam neque id quod est diuinae naturae praecipuum ad locum qui creatis conuenit deponamus Rainoldes This sentence alleaged out of the two and thirtieth of Cyril in Gréeke is in the twelfth booke of our Latin Cyrill Sauing that he being translated by an other hath it in other wordes But there is the sentence the very same sentence which the Councell pointeth too Hart. It might be there first and yet againe afterward in the two and thirtieth as manye vse one sentence often Rainoldes But the circumstance of the place doth rather import it to be the very same For the Councell saith that Cyrill hath these wordes explanans epistolans ad profanos where he expoundeth the epistle to profane men And what meant they by this epistle ad profanos to profane men Hart. How can I tell what they meant when that booke of Cyrill whereof they speake is lost Rainoldes It should be the epistle ad Romanos to the Romaines Romanos made profanos by the printers error vnlesse he did it of purpose to shew what now the Romanes be or some corrector chaunged it least wee by this circumstance should find the place of Cyrill For this where he expoundeth the epistle to the Romanes is a great argument that the Councell meant the place in the twelfth booke where Cyril doth handle such pointes of that epistle as concerned the matter that he had in hand Which that he should doo againe in the same worke with the same sentence touching the same matter they who know Cyrill will not thinke it likely The lesse because it is an vsuall thing with the Grecians to diuide bookes otherwise then the Latins doo As in the Gréeke testament the gospell of S. Marke hath more then

is not one worde of your miraculous fable As litle in S. Athanasius beside that the sermon which you alleage as his is in your own edition reiected for a bastard In Damascene there is more yet not so much neither as here your Portesse hath But he is too late too weake a witnes to proue a doubtful matter pretended to be doon almost fiue hundred yeares before him The best or rather all your proofe is S. Denys whom you belye notablie For where saith he that which you doo father on him Hart. Where in an epistle of his to S. Timothee Rainoldes He wrote no such epistle Your Rhemistes did mistake their Portesse whence this stuffe is borowed For reading there that Denys wrote hereof to Timothee they thought it had béene in an epistle to Timothee The place which they meant is in a booke entitled of the names of God pretended to be writen to Timothee by Denys Hart. In a booke or an epistle it is a great matter why you should charge them with lying Rainoldes I doo not therefore charge them with it Neither would I mention this but to point you the place in which they lye For they say that S. Denys writeth these these things where neither the autour who writeth is S. Denys neither writeth he the thinges which they alleage Touching the thinges first he saith no more thereof but that amongst the Bishops inspired of the holy Ghost Hierothe●s excelled all the rest saue the Apostles in praysing Christes goodnesse when him selfe and Timothee and many of their holy brethren came together to behold the body which receyued God and which the Prince of life was in As for the miracle of the Apostles brought together S. Thomas comming the thirde day after the Angels singing hymnes three dayes the buriall of the virgins body the desire of Thomas to see it the sepulcher opened for his sake and the body assumpted into heauen he saith not one worde of these conceites not one word Nay he rather saith against them For he noteth namely that Iames was also present the brother of the Lord and Peter the chiefe and ancientest toppe of the Apostles Which it is not likelie he would so note of two Apostles if they had all béene present Much lesse is it likely that he would say nothing of so great a miracle if any such had happened Hart. Perhaps it is writen in some other parte of S. Denys workes Rainoldes In no part at all of anie worke that beareth the name of S. Denys Hart. Not that is extant now But he wrote manie more as Nicephorus sheweth and Damascene maketh mention of this epistle to Timothee Rainoldes Nay that which Damascene mentioneth is the booke I spake of whence all that he citeth is taken word for word Yea Nicephorus also doth alleage the same quoting the very chapter as the onely place wherein the assumption of the blessed virgin is proued by S. Denys The more doo I maruell what should moue your Rhemists to say that S. Denys writeth and witnesseth that all the Apostles were brought miraculously together to honour her diuine departure yea and that he testifieth of his own hearing that both before her death and after for three dayes the Angels did sing most melodious hymnes vnlesse they were disposed to lye for the whetstone But this of the thinges The other of the autour is not so great a faute yet a faute too For they would haue men thinke that he who wrote this worke of the names of God others of the heauenly ecclesiastical hierarchie as he termeth it was the famous Denys the scholer of S. Paul Wheras it was a counterfeit who tooke that Denys name vpon him Hart. It was that famous Denys in déed who wrote those notable and diuine workes and others in which he confirmeth and proueth plainely almost all thinges that the Church now vseth in the ministration of the holy sacraments and affirmeth that he learned them of the Apostles giuing also testimonie for the Catholike faith in most thinges now controuersed so plainely that your men haue no shift but to deny that Denys to haue béene the autour of them feyning that they be an others of later age Which is an old sleight of heretikes but most proper to you of al others Who séeing al antiquitie against you are forced to be more bold or rather impudent thē others in that point Rainoldes These flowers of your Seminarie that wee are heretikes bold impudent that all antiquitie is against vs you may spare them for they are stale they haue béene dipt in gall lye You say that he proueth plainely almost al things that the Church now vseth in the ministration of the holy Sacraments If you meane by the Church not our Church but yours that almost must haue fauor or els without almost you lauish For though he haue more thinges then either the Church of the Apostles had or ours doth allow yet neither all that you haue many that you haue not and some cleane contrarie to yours As namely in the sacrament of the Lords supper wherin you varie from vs most he neither hath your stage-like gestures toyes nor inuocation of Saintes nor adoration of creatures nor sacrificing of Christ to God nor praying for the soules in Purgatorie nor sole receyuing of the Priest nor ministring vnder on● kind to them who receiue nor exhortations lessons prayers in a tongue which the people doth not vnderstand So that in thing● of substance and not of ceremonie only he differeth as farre from your blasphemous Masse as he is néere to our Communion But the thinges which he hath you say that he affirmeth he learned them of the Apostles He doth so I graunt as it was fit for him who would be counted that Denys which was conuerted by S. Paul But as it happeneth vnto counterfeites he hath forgot himselfe in one place and so betrayed the feate For speaking of infants why they are baptized hereof saith he we say those thinges which our diuine maisters being instructed by the old tradition haue brought vnto vs. By the which words the man at vnawares hath shewed that he learned not not of the Apostles For Christ him selfe instructed the Apostles of baptisme they had it not from old tradition Hart. That is a weake coniecture why he should be a counterfeit For he might call the tradition of the Apostles old tradition though it were but certain yeares or moneths before him Rainoldes Hardly if he liued in the same time with them But if he might yet could he not say that the Apostles were instructed by the old tradition of the Apostles Belike his maisters were younger men Hart. Our coniectures may deceiue vs we must not trust them in such matters The Fathers count him the right Denys For Gregorie Nazianzen Origen

say this or that against a man you must proue it Rainoldes So I minde to doo And that by demonstration out of the sa●e booke of Genebrard himselfe in which he ●indeth this faute with the Centurie-writers For about what yeare of Christ did Isidore dye How doth Genebrard recken Hart. In the yeare six hundred thirtie and seuen as he proueth out of Vasaeus Rainoldes When was the generall Councell of Constantinople vnder Agatho kept What saith he of that Hart. In the yeare six hundred foure score and one or two or there about Rainoldes Then Isidore was dead aboue fourtie yeares before that generall Councell Hart. He was but what of that Rainoldes Of that it doth folow that the preface writen in Isidores name and set before the Councels to purchase credit to those epistles is a counterfeit and not Isidores For in that preface there is mention made of the generall Councell of Constantinople held against Bishop Macarius and Stephanus in the time of Pope Agatho Constantine the Emperour Which séeing it was held aboue fourtie yeares after Isidore was dead by Genebrards owne confession by his owne confession Isidore could not tell the foure score Bishops of it And so the foure score Bishops which Turrian hath found out in one Isidore are dissolued all into one counterfeit abusing both the name of Isidore and foure score Bishops Hart. Igmarus who was Archbishop of Rhemes in the time of Lewes sonne to Charles about seuen hundred yeares since did thinke that worke to be S. Isidores and so he citeth it Rainoldes Why mention you that Are you disposed to proue that some haue béene deceiued and thought him Isidore who was not Hart. No But to proue that the worke is Isidores as Father Turrian doth by the testimonie of Igmarus Rainoldes Ignarus can not proue that He must be content to be deceiued in some what as well as his ancestors For it is too cléere by the Councels them selues that Isidore did dye about the time that we agréed of and therefore no helpe but it must be an other who wrote that preface in his name Which maketh me so much the more to suspect that the epistles are counterfeit sith I finde that a Father was counterfeited to get them credit And sure it is likely that about the time of Charles the great when the westerne Churches did commonly-fetch bookes from the Roman librarie some groome of the Popes that had an eye to the almes-box conueied this pamphlet in amongst them and well meaning men in France and other countryes receyued it as a worthie worke compiled by S. Isidore and coming from the See Apostolike But say what may be saide for the silence of olde witnesses which is vrged and iustly as a probable coniecture that those epistles were not extant in their dayes the matters that are handled and debated in them the scriptures alleaged the stories recorded the ceremonies mentioned the times and dates assigned are not coniectures probable but most certaine proofes that they could not be writen by those ancient Bishops of Rome whose names they beare There is a booke entitled to the Poet Ouid touching an olde woman haue you euer séene it Hart. What is that to the purpose Doth he speake of the Popes epistles Rainoldes No but their epistles are like to that booke in sundrie respectes It is ancient it was printed aboue a hundred yeares ago And he who set it foorth saith that Ouid wrote it in his old age and willed it to be laide vp in his graue with him in the which graue it was found at length by the inhabitants of the countrey who sent it to Constantinople and the Emperour gaue it to Leo his principal notarie who did publish it A smooth tale to make men beleeue that it is Ouids Of whom though it sauour no more then these epistles of the Bishops of Rome yet if your Diuines could finde some antike verse there that were an euidence for the Popes supremacie I sée my former reasons would not disswade you from beléeuing but Ouid wrote the booke For to the barbarousnes and basenes of the Latin and style if I should vrge it you might answere that Ouid wrote so for two causes that he might not séeme to be vaine gloriously giuen and that his repentance might bee knowne euen to the simplest To the silence of witnesses that no man maketh mention of it amongst his workes you might answere that it lay hidden in his graue And this you might answere with greater shew of likelyhood then that the Popes epistles lay hidden in the Popes librarie But vnto the matters of which the booke intreateth and thinges that it discourseth on no shadow of defense can be made with any reason For it speaketh in the praise of the virgin Marie that God shall giue her to be our mediatresse and shall assumpt her into heauen and place her in a throne with him yea the autour prayeth to her Which are pointes of doctrine that were not heard of I trow in Ouids time Neither is it likely that Ouid was so well read in the scriptures that he could cite the law of Moses and speake of Iacob and Esau and allude to Salomon in Ecclesiastes Euen so for those epistles of the Bishops of Rome although you haue gloses to shift of other reasons yet I am perswaded that you can lay no colour on the contents and substance of them For the scriptures are so alleaged and such pointes are taught about the gouernment of the Church about religion about rites about stories ecclesiasticall that it is not possible they should be writen by those Bishops Hart. Why Doo you thinke it as vnlikely a matter that they should alleage the scriptures as that Ouid should Rainoldes Nay I doo thinke it or rather I doo know it to be more vnlikely that they should so alleage the scriptures as they doo then that Ouid should allude to Salomon or cite Moses For the bookes of Moses perhaps of Salomon too were translated into Gréeke by the Seuentie interpreters many a yeare before Ouid and he might haue read them But your common Latin translation of the olde testament made a great part of it by S. Ierom out of the Hebrewe whence it is called S. Ieroms could not be séene by Anacletus and other auncient Bishops of Rome For they were deceased before he was borne And yet all their epistles doo alleage the scriptures after that translation An euident token that the writer of them did liue after S. Ierom yea a great while after him as may bee déemed probably For the common Latin translation which the ancient Latin Fathers vsed was made out of the Gréeke of the Seuentie interpreters Tertullian Cyprian Hilarie Ambrose and other of the same ages shew it in all their writings Nether was that olde translation forsaken straight waies as soone as Ierom had set forth his

it is impossible they should merit Hart. Nay I meant not so For though they be defiled as they are of our selues yet as they are of Christ whose grace worketh in vs they are pure and perfit Rainoldes Then as they are wrought by the grace of Christ so they may be the offering which the Prophet speaketh of For they are pure and perfit so and therefore cleane by your owne opinion Hart. But the Propheticall offering is cleane of it selfe Our workes are not cleane of them selues but of Christ and therefore can not be that offering Rainoldes Now may you féele the falshood of D. Allens dealing For himselfe addeth those words of it selfe to make his reason serue the Prophet saith no more but that the offering is cleane Wherefore sith our workes are cleane and vndefiled chiefly as Papistes iudge our workes might be meant by the Propheticall offering howsoeuer they be vnperfit and impure of them selues Hart. What And doo you thinke M. Rainoldes that our workes though vncleane of them selues yet as they are wrought by the grace of Christ are cleane and vndefiled And see you not then that of the other side you consent in the chiefest point of Catholike faith with Papists as you terme vs For if you thinke in deede that our workes bee cleane as they are wrought by grace then must you néedes thinke that we may so fulfil the law and merit life and be iustified by workes not by faith onely Rainoldes I meant not so M. Hart. But according to the prouerbe that for a hard knot a hard wedge must be sought I thought good to cleaue a Popish dreame in sunder with a Popish fansy For otherwise I know that although our workes be wrought by Christes grace yet is mans nature and flesh in vs who worke them and therefore doo they cary a staine of vncleannes It was of grace that the children of Israel did consecrate their holy thinges and giftes to God Yet that worke of theirs was not frée from spot in so much that Aaron must beare on his forhead a plate of pure gold wherein was ingrauen Holines of the Lord a monument of Christ that hee might take away the iniquitie of the holy thinges which they consecrated of all the giftes of their holy thinges and he should beare it alwayes to make them acceptable before the Lord. It is of grace that the Saintes of God doo pray to him Yet the other Angel that stoode before the altar with a golden censer had much odours giuen him that hee might put them into the prayers of all the Saintes vpon the golden altar which is before the throne and the smoke of the odours put into the prayers went vp before God out of the Angels hand Which is a token that the prayers of Saintes haue their infirmitie and yeelde no sweete smelling fauour vnto God without fauour in Christ. To be short in all the gratious and good workes of men God doth worke in vs both to will and to doo But euill is so present with vs that the good which we would doo we can not wee would through Gods grace we can not through our frailtie Yea when we doo good it is a will rather of dooing then a dooing we are so farre from perfit dooing it For wee ought to loue God with all our heart and with all our soule and with all our strength with al our thought and our neighbours as our selues But as long as the flesh doth lust against the spirit and a law in our members doth rebell against the law of our minde which is as long as we are in this body of death we loue him not with all our heart soule strength and thought but with part and therefore in lesser measure then we ought Now whatsoeuer is lesse then it should be is fautie for it transgresseth his commandement Wherefore sith our workes should bee doon with perfit loue of God and men and that perfit loue we haue not in this life it foloweth that our workes in this life are fautie yea though they 〈◊〉 wrought by the grace of Christ. Not as though his grace had any blemish God forbidde but because our selues in whom it worketh are corrupt as water though it flow from a fountaine most cléere yet if it doo runne through a muddy chanell it becommeth muddy So nether fulfill we the law in any worke much lesse in all our workes which they must doo who will fulfill it for he that offendeth in one is guiltie of all nether can we merit ought at Gods hands much lesse eternall life for he oweth vs no thankes though we did all thinges which are commaunded vs because we ought to do them and what is our desert then who doo not all things nether may wee possibly be iustified by workes before the iudgement seat of God for cursed is euery man that continueth not in all things which are written in the booke of the law to doo them and we all offend in many things Hart. But if all our workes be muddy as you say and stained with vncleannesse then is it much surer that the cleane offering which the Prophet speaketh off cannot betoken them For the Lord reproueth the Iewish Priests there for offering vncleane bread and sacrificing the blinde the lame and the sicke Wherefore sith of the contrarie he saith that the offering made among the Gentiles shall be a cleane offering it foloweth that he meant not the spirituall sacrifices that is the workes of Christians and what then but the outward sacrifice of the Masse Rainoldes In déede if cleane things stained with vncleannesse were the verie same that vncleane things you might iustly thinke that our spirituall sacrifices could not be allowed no more then the carnall of those Iewish Priests But the onely sacrifice that is cleane perfitly and hath no staine at all is Christ the vndefiled and vnspotted Lambe offered on the crosse to sanctifie vs with his blood The sacrifices of the faithfull are cleane but vnperfitly and therefore néede his fauour with pardon as I shewed that they may be acceptable to God through Iesus Christ. The sacrifices of the wicked and hypocrites are vncleane as being either vnlawfull such as were the blinde and lame and sicke among the Iewes or offered vnlawfully with mindes and consciences defiled So the sacrifices of those Iewish Priests which God reproueth were absolutely vncleane Our spirituall sacrifices are vnperfitly cleane cleane in comparison and cleane by acceptation Cleane in comparison respect of men as Habacuk complaining that the wicked man deuouteth the righteous saith him that is righteous in respect of him selfe praysing not the righteous man as simply righteous but in comparison of the wicked Cleane by acceptation in the sight of God who dealing as a louing father with his children taketh in good part that which they