not go a great way of to buy his corne rather then starue Zelot He is a starke foole which wil not go a great way rather theÌ„ starue his body but he is not a foole which wil not once step out at his dore for to seeke the euerlasting foode of his soule Ath. Those are not alike wée must néedes séeke for to liue Zelot Noe you cannot see them for too bee a like you see well in thinges of this worlde but for heauenly thinges yee see nothing but to come to the matter it is great pitie in deede that there shoulde be such disorder as that men should runne from towne to towne to heare sermons Our Sauiour Christe pitied them when they came into the wildernesse for to heare him because hee saith they were as sheepe without a sheepehearde But you and your mates are not grieued with the same pitie yee are as like a malicious dogge as can â—ee which lyeth vppon the hay and will eare none neither will suffer the Oxe which woulde Woe bee vnto yee Scribes and Pharisees yee Hypocrites ye shut vppe the kingdome of heauen before men yee enter not in your selues neither doe yee suffer those which would enter Mat. 23 14. Ath. You say they goe to séeke foode for their soules and to learne for to know God but they doe it of vaine glorie Zelot There be alwaies some no doubt which doe not seeke of a syncere minde but of vaine glorie and doe abuse their knoweledge and are vainelie puffed vp in themselues with an opinion of those things which are not in them but will you giue sentence against all because some are such Is this a good argument men giue almes for vaine glorie men come to the Church and pray of vaine glorie Therefore almes and prayer are to be left for doubtlesse some doe those thinges for vaine glorie euen as our Sauiour Christe accuseth the Scribes and Pharisees Ath. But Christ biddeth vs doe those thinges Nowe will yee prooue that we are commanded to doe this Zelot I knowe no place which hath in plaine woordes Goe vnto other countreis or townes for to heare preaching and whie because the will of God is that they shoulde haue preachers come home vnto them and be appointed ouer them for to feede them I might alleadge examples of good men which sought after Christ whome he did not forbid Doe ye thinke when the Lorde commaundeth vs to seeke him so earnestlie and that in the mysterie of his Gospell that a few miles ought for to stop vs. Howe farre thinke yee men runne for a little earthly substaunce Howe far doe they run on heapes both men women vnto feasts maygames dauncings plaies bearebatings and other such vanities Ath. Youth will be doing ye must not blame them they haue time enough to bee holy hereafter I haue had as greate delight my self ere nowe in those things as one but nowe I waxe olde Zelot I was sure yee woulde allowe this kinde of running from towne to towne this is no disorder at all howe many are there of yee which crie out with open mouth against such as seeke after the woorde and seeke for to trouble punish them for so doing which once open your mouth against these foule abuses Whereas ye say youth will be doyng ye say true and so will many aged likewise but doth it followe therefore that they must be suffered to do the thinges which are euill In that yee say they haue time enough to bee holy hereafter therein you shewe yourselfe to be a right worldling a very epicure an ignorant man for thus your worldly Epicures doe speake youth will haue their race let them alone what shoulde young men and maidens doe with the scriptures cleane contrarie vnto that which God speaketh by his Prophete Wherewithall shall a young man clense his way euen by taking heede thereto according to thy woorde Likewise by Salomon in the booke of Ecclesiastes chap. 11. Remember thy creator in the dayes of thy youth But now a daies it is a principal point of diuinitie that youth may walke after the lustes of the fleshe so long vntill through custome of sinning they are so besotted and hardened in their wicked lusts their concupiscences are growen so strong that there can no grace enter into them so it seemeth for to be with you for I dare warrant you are able to tell a long tale of your youth trickes Ath. Well I am as I am you cannot make me better I trust ye shall make mee no woorse Ye speake as though none coulde be good but scripture men Zelot None can be good but such as feare God such as seeke for to obey him None feare God which set light by his ordinaunces and cast them behinde their backes None can obey GOD but suche as doe seeke for to knowe and followe those preceptes which hee vttereth in his woorde None are godlie but such as are clensed and guide their wayes by the woorde Hee whiche is of God heareth Gods worde Ath. If they be so good and godlie howe commeth it to passe then that there is so much debate among them for I knowe townes my selfe whiche are euen deuided one part against another since they had a preacher which were not so before This they gaine that whereas before they loued together nowe there is dissention sowne among them Zelot Nowe ye discharge your greatest ordinance I trowe yee haue nowe paide it home It is harde if Satan cannot with this engine ouerthrowe and beate downe Preaching But I pray you tell mee can yee put fire and water together but they will rumble Will yee haue light and darkenesse for to agree as companions together Ath. What is this to the matter Zelot Woulde yee haue God and the Diuell agree together woulde ye haue the godlie and the wicked for to bee at one this ye must do ye looke where the fault is to bee laide Ath. I thinke the fault must néedes bee layde vppon the preaching because they agréed before that came Zelot If their agreement together before had beene good then no doubt the preaching that should breake it could not be good for one good thing cannot destroye another But the former peace was not in GOD but in the fleshe neither was it so great as you would seeme for to set it foorth because that the worldlinges are alwayes at strife and one readie for to cut anothers throate but yet their hatred is so exceeding greate against the Gospell that in respect of the mind which they carrie towards the professors thereof they seeme among themselues to bee at peace and one to loue and make much of another Ath. Where is the fault then for to be layde Zelot Vpon the wicked which fret and rage against the word because it layeth open and discloseth their filthinesse and bewrayeth them For the light as S. Paule saith doth manifest all thinges They pretend other excuses as though they hated the professours
yee alone to iudge what ye lust Zelot Nay yee vse the verie popishe reasons whereby they woulde prooue when we charge them with the breache of this commaundement that they doe not committe Idolatrie for say they when the Scripture doeth condemne that sinne it is meant of such as worship fained Gods as the heathen men did or such as do worship the image it selfe and take it for to be God But I will deale with ye by Gods woord What doe yâ—e suppose of the children of Israel when they came to Aaron to haue him make them Gods to goe before them when Moses taried so long in the mouÌ„t did they commit this great sinne of Idolatry Ath. They did commit idolatrie and the booke saith they were destroyed a great number of them Zelot What was their intent to worship any besides the true God Ath. That it was for they desired Aaron for to make them Gods Zelot What thinke ye they tooke Aaron for to be a man or a God Ath. That is a question in deede howe could they thinke him to be a God Zelot Did they thinke that Aaron being but a man had power for to make a God Ath. If they thought so they were but fooles Zelot And if you thinke they thought so ye shall prooue no great wise man For which way can a man perswade any that a man can make a God Or could they become more brutishe then a calfe for to beleeue that the carâ—â—inges of golde turned into the similitude of a calfe were nowe become GOD No my friend it is very playne that they meant no more but an image of God and that which should represent God and put them in minde of him ye must not think they were so foolish although they were very foolish as the holy Ghost in one psal chargeth them that they turned their glory into the similitude of a calfe whiche eateth hay This then is plaine enough that they meant not for to worship the golden calfe it selfe but God in the Calfe Let vs see then did they meane for to worship any other by the calfe besides the true God Ath. It seemeth they did or els why should they say Gods for there is but one God Zelot Now ye are light vpon a very poore shift for we may as well say This is thy God O Israel or make vs a God to go before vs. For the Scripture it selfe in the Hebrew tongue although it teach that there is but one God yet speaketh of him in the plural number and saith Gods for excellencie or dignities sake as we see Princes here in the world when any of them speaketh he doth not say I but we not my person but our person For the phrase of the Scripture I might alleadge diuers places but you cannot vnderstande but in your owne tongueâ— neuerthelesse I will cite one it is in the Plaâ—â— Elohim Shophetim Hu God is the iudgeâ— but the words are Gods he is iudge Ath. Can you prooue that they meant to worship none but the true God Zelot It is easie to be proued both by the words of the people themselues when they say these be thy Gods O Israel which brought thee out of the lande of Egypt they meant not to change their GOD which brought them out from Pharao and ledde them through the red Sea neither did they thinke that the calfe which Aaron hadd made was he which deuided the Sea and drowned Pharao with his host but they tooke it for an image of that God and not of any feyned God and also by the woordes of Aaron when he sayth To morrowe shalbe a feast to Iehouah which name was neuer giuen to any but to the God of heauen at the least in those dayes the God of Israel had that name peculier vnto himselfe Then ye may see they worshipped not the Idole it selfe but God in the Idol they meant not to woorship any false God but the God of heauen which had deliuered them yet they did commit foule Idolatry and fell from God in so much that God was exceeding wrath with them Likewise in popery ye fell from God when ye bowed vnto images Ath. I hope not because I did not as they did they put a deuotion in it I meant no suche thinge but too bee obedient too a lawe Zelot TheÌ„ your meaning is that you kept your heart and conscience to God and went with your body but for fashion Ath. So long as I did keepe my conscience and heart to God I trust I did well enough Zelot Then you thinke God requireth not to be woorshipped but with your soule that you may serue the Diuell with your body Ye thinke also that God doth not require the outwarde confession of the mouth although it shoulde be with losse of life Ath. Yee doe not heare mee saye that wee may woorshippe the Diuell with our bodies Zelot You might heare your selfe say so but that ye say ye know not what for herein ye are ignoraunt that the woorshippe of images is the woorshippe of Diuels But I knowe there be many trimme wise heades which excuse the matter cleere themselues this way that they make no deuotion of the image or any other thing in the seruice of the Pope their conscience is free to GOD they serue and feare him what doth it huâ—e them although they come outwardely with their bodie vnto the other what should they indanger themselues in so small a matter But will ye heare me what I can say out of Gods word against you and such fellowes Ath. I will heare you gladly I am not so wilfull as not to heare Zelot There were amongest the Corinthians diuers Christians which were perswaded that it was a matter indifferent to goe to the Idole temple and there to sit at the feast with the infidels whiche they made in honour of the Idole and to â—ate of the meate which had beene â—lâ—â—â— in sacrifice vnto the Idole They excused the exact in this wise that they had knowledge they vnderstood well that the Idole was nor GOD they went not of anie deuotion at all as touching the worship and seruice which the heathen men did vse but for friendship and neighbourhood sake â—â—â— they woulde not refuse to eate with suche as were thâ—â—â— kinsfolkes or acquaintance Nowe although S. Paule doth mildlie 〈…〉 with them and aunsweareth their reasons in the â— and â— chapter yet in the 10. Chap. hec dealeth very roughly with them setting before them the terrible example of Gods wrath vppon Idolaters and sheweth plainly that they were partakers of the table of diuels and that they draÌ„k of the cup of diuels howsoeuer they thought they kept them selues and their conscieÌ„ces free and vnpolluted Euen so I conclude that these worldlings which vse this shift now little deuotion soeuer they haue yet they haue no lesse then the Corinthians had in the Idole feast therefore when S. Paule affirmeth that they committed idolatrie it must needes
but where as they are made for to speake When as in deed the Preacher in his Sermon must come with such euidence and make his proofe so plaine and so strong that it must needes conuince the conscience of the hearers in such wise that of necessitie he shalbe forced for to say vndoubtedly that which this man vttereth is that which God himself speaketh for so saith the Apost 1. Cor. 14. 24 If saith he all doe prophesie and there come in an infidel or one vnlearned he is reproued of all he is iudged of all and so the secrets of his hearte are made manifest and falling vpon his face he will worship God confessing that God is verily among you This testimonie doth shew that the force of Gods worde vttered nakedly is such that it conuicteth the hart of the infidel and coÌ„pelleth him for to confesse that God is with theÌ„ which speak it The worde of God is described in the Epistle to the Hebrwes Chap. 4. 12. after this sort the worde of God saith he is liuely mightie in operation sharper then any two edged sworde and entereth in vnto the deuiding asunder of the soule and the spirite of the ioynts and the marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the hart Men might vnderstand by this that by whom soeuer this sword of the spirite be drawne forth if it be rightly handled it will pearse through and through both the bodies and soules of the hearers and will moue euery veine in the heart euen of the wicked So that he needeth not for to grind it or make it sharpe vpon the grindstone of Ambrose or Hierom. Ath. Then you destroy learning if yee take awaye the writinges of the Doctors for they serue to no vse if it be as you say why should students read them Zelot There is great benefite in the reading of them for to helpe vs to the true vnderstanding of the scriptures Ath. If they helpe yée to vnderstand the scriptures wherefore do yée not when yee expound the scriptures tell which is theirs Yée robbe them and take the glorie to your selues Zelot Nowe yee reason as bussardlike as can be ye may be a Doctour of Dunces for this argument Doth the Preacher come in his owne name must he tell his owne will or is he to seeke his owne glorie or the glory of any other man If other haue holpen him to finde the knowledge of Gods will which he must vtter it is therefore become theirs because they haue shewed it vnto him If he now set it foorth in the name of the Lord alone whose it is doth he robbe them For looke whatsoeuer a man findeth in the auncient writers in expounding he is no further to beleeue them then they proue their exposition out of the Bible so that it continueth still not theirs but the Lordes and if wee shoulde ascribe it vnto them we should robbe the Lorde and bee theeues for other men Therefore in this matter wee must follow the precept which the Lorde giueth 1 Peter 4. 11. He that speaketh let him speake as the wordes of God Ath. Is that so meant that it is not alowâ—â—to cite any thing out of other bookes besides the worde Zelot I tolde yee before that it is not simply vnlawfull for to cite or alleadge a sentence out of a Doctour But the maner and ende of the dooyng of it is all I say likewise that a man may in some sorte alleadge a saying out of any Heathen or prophane Writer for wee haue the example of Saint Paule Actes 17. 1. Corinth 15. Titus 1. Alleadging the sayinges of prophane Poets But wee must see to what end doth hee reason thus the Poet saith it therefore are yee to giue credite vnto it no man woulde bee so foolishe as to make their wordes being Heathen men to bee of such authoritie but he sheweth that euen their owne Doctors consented with him in those things And therefore a shame and foule reproche for them too bee ignorant of the same When the Papistes doe charge vs to be gone from the faith of the olde Fathers although we are to confute them this way namely by shewing their treacherie and lying when we are able to prooue by the writinges of the auncient Fathers that in the chiefe pointes they fully agree with vs yet this is not the way which God hath appointed and sanctified for the conuersion and education of his people this engine is ouer weake to reare vp the Temple of the Lorde we must take heede we leaue not the mightie worde it selfe and leane vnto a tottering piller Saint Paule sheweth the power of the worde 2. Corinth 10. where hee saith although we walke in the fleshe yet wee warre not after the fleshe for the weapons of our warrefare are not carnall but mightie in God for to throwe downe holdes which he expoundeth in the verse which followeth to be the imaginations and euery high thing which is exalted against the knowledge of God and euery thought which hee saith they leade captiue vnto the obedience of Christ There is no power nor anye authoritie can doe these thinges but that which is in the word of God it selfe Which is to be made so euident by the Preacher that it may bring this thing to passe The miserable experience in our time of suche as flie from the strong power of the woorde and fight with the weapons of menne maye reache vs because it doeth manifestly appeare vnto all whiche haue eyes too see that they are not strong enough to throwe downe holdes and to leade captiue vnto the obedience of Christ the rebellious thoughtes and imaginations of mens mindes they cannot shew a man by them conuerted sincerely throughly from errours and euill maners by alleadging the authorities of men It was not the practise of the auncient and godly fathers in their Sermons for to leaue the testimonies of the mightie word which is able to rent the stony rocke in peeces and to cleaue to the authorities of weake men which were gone before them But what should a man say The worde is thought to bee of no power vnlesse it bee strengthened otherwise But let vs leaue this and come backe againe to some of your other matters I remember ye did lay this as a great accusation against the preachers that they medled with predestination Ath. I did so and not without cause for they do great hurt thereby vnto many when they teach such thinges Zelot What hurte can yee shewe which commeth by preaching of predestination Ath. If a man bee chosen for to bee saued let him doe as euil as hee can hee shall not bee damned and if a man be appointed before hee was borne to bee damned let him doe neuer so much good hee can not bee saued and therefore when yee teach this doctrine ye were euen as good tel the people that they may liue as they lust Let them neuer heare teaching to what purpose shoulde