he Luther shewed his allowance of their iudgement We answered that he so sayde for that they brought very probable reasons for that their iudgement But he still charged Luther with blasphemie for saying that some doe very probably affirme that the Epistle of Iames was not written by the Apostle Saint Iames nor worthie the spirite of an Apostle and vrged vs to answere what opinion we had of that Epistle meaning to intangle vs with that Dilemma either to condemne Luther or else to doubt of the Epistle as Luther saith that some probablie doe We answered that our Church doubteth not of that Epistle but receiueth it as Canonical readeth it in our Churches expoūdeth it in our scholes and alleageth it for confirmation of doctrine Notwithstanding for Luther or any other to say that some haue very probably affirmed that Epistle not to be written by Saint Iames nor to be worthie the spirite of an Apostle is no blasphemie It is blasphemie blasphemie quoth he pronoūcing those words with disdainefull countenance and voyce It is soone said quoth we but not so easely proued I will proue it quoth he to be blasphemie by two reasons and thus he framed a syllogisme The Gospell of Saint Iohn and the Epistle of Saint Iames were written by the same spirite But to say that some doe probably affirme the Gospell of Saint Iohn not to be written by Saint Iohn nor to be worthie the spirite of an Apostle is blasphemie Therefore to say that like of Saint Iames Epistle is blasphemy Answere was made that the Maior was Petitio Principij the challenging of the graunt of that which chiefly is in controuersie For those that so say of Saint Iames Epistle doubt whether it was written by the same Spirite that the Gospell of Saint Iohn was or no and that still resteth for you to proue said we And here Master Campion when he coulde not denie that he required that to be graunted to him which he should haue proued was put to silence and had no more to replie Then was his second reason called for but none could be found Then saide one of them Why is not Saint Iames Epistle called the Catholicke Epistle of Saint Iames Howe doe you then denie it to be Canonicall It was said that that was a simple reason For whereas other Epistles of the Apostles were written vnto speciall Cities people or persons this of Saint Iames for that it was written commonly to all the tribes of the Iewes dispersed was called Catholike or generall Then sayd we to the auditorie You haue heard that Luther doeth much commend this Epistle of Saint Iames as good and profitable and Master Campion alleadgeth that he calleth it contentious puffed vp drie or barren stuffed with strawe and vnworthie the Apostolike spirit Whereby sayd we ye may see the diuersitie or rather contrarietie of Luthers wordes and Master Campions reporte and so may ye iudge of his synceritie trueth which he vseth likewise continually Then saide Master Campion that Luther himselfe and others had purged these workes and taken away all such places as that was and the like that ministred such occasions of offence as that did and he said he woulde procure from the Emperours Maiestie and the Duke of Bauaria and from another Prince whose name we remember not the true copyes of those bookes to be sent to the Queenes Maiestie Which wordes he rising vp from the forme whereon he sate pronounced with so great contention of voice and with such gesture casting vp his armes beating vpon his booke that one of vs challenged him therefore demaunding why he vsed such outragious speach and behauiour He answered for that so many yong Catholiques were present there he woulde not by any faint defending of the cause giue them occasion of offence Whereby we vnderstande howe he would haue behaued him selfe might he haue obteined a disputation among the youth of the Uniuersities trusting they woulde be caryed away many of them by such his bolde and confident dealings and actions And we saide further to Master Campion that if Luther had purged his books where he first reiected Saint Iames Epistle as Master Campion saith he hath sithen receiued and much commended it with whatreason hath Master Campion charged vs vpon his surmise of Luthers first writing which doth no where appeare as reiecting Saint Iames Epistle He should rather haue commended vs who doe and alwayes haue allowed of that Epistle and should haue praised Luther who after the example of Saint Augustine and other ancient and godly writers had amended in his writing that which vpon better aduise he misliked Then we turning to the auditorie sayd that seeing all the printed Bookes of Luther extant that we could finde doe conteine such commendations of Saint Iames Epistle as they had heard and that Master Campion hath charged Luther so contrarily to all his printed bookes wherein he commendeth that Epistle and therby also chargeth vs as reiecting it who euer haue receiued it they might we said take Master Campions trueth and synceritie to be as it is vntill he haue brought out his copies from the Emperour and the Duke of Bauaria which he nor any liuing we beleeue can euer doe But Master Campion said that might he haue his own bookes from Oxeforde he woulde shewe that in Luther which he had written of him Whereunto it was answered that if he woulde let vs knowe where they were we would become humble suters to their honors that he might both enioye his bookes and that the partie who had them in keeping might be without daunger But this woulde he not consent vnto Then Hart one of his fellowes saide that he being at Rome heard Bellarminus the reader of controuersies there affirme that the wordes reported by Campion in his booke were in that preface of Luther and that therefore vpon his worde it was so Whereunto we answered that neither his wordes nor the testimonie of Bellarminus were of sufficient credite to carry away such a matter as that was without better proofe specially so many and most manifest proofes in Luthers printed bookes being to the contrarie who agreeth with vs in allowing the said Epistle and that therefore Master Campion hath most impudently alleadged this place of Luther as a profe that we should reiect S. Iames Epistle Then Master Beale said It is not materiall to vs if Luther had once so written but he asked Master Campion whether euer he did read him selfe any such wordes in Luther as he in his booke doeth charge him with or not Whereto he answered that in a treatise made by Doctor Lee sometime Archbishoppe of Yorke against that booke of Luther intituled De captiuitate Babilonica he had read these wordes alleadged as he had set them downe in his booke Being againe asked whether either vpon his othe or vpon his credit he would say to the presence there assembled that he had euer seene the places alleaged by him in his booke
and whether he knewe them to be true He answered that he wrote his booke as he traueiled and that he coulde not we knewe cary a librarie about with him and therefore he was forced to giue credite to his notes We said it was more credible that he brought the saide booke ouer with him readie framed by the common and long conference of him selfe and his fellowe Iesuites at conuenient opportunitie suddenly to be published rather then that he did write it in his trauels hauing so much besides to do being destitute of his librarie as he said which is the vsual maner as we said of you all hūting thereby for popular praise of speedie writing But when howsoeuer you did write your booke said we you haue vsed ouermuch boldnes so cōfidently to publish in print these slaūderous reportes of such men as you haue named being not able to make any proofe of that wherof you accuse them And vpon these such good grounds of yours you doe most vnreasonably and vntruly charge vs all as those that haue rased mangled and spoyled the body of the holy Bible The third testimonie or proofe alleaged against vs by Master Campion in his booke is taken out of the Centuries written by Illiricus and others which booke being giuen into his handes and the like demaunde made as before he would neither reade nor once open the booke neither yet made he any answere thereto knowing that he could make no exception to the print as he did before to Luthers bookes seeing that booke was neuer printed but once And besides where they as Historiographers had only set down the iudgements of S. Hierome Eusebius Epiphanius and of other ancient fathers concerning this Epistle of Saint Iames of Tobias the bookes of Macchabees c he knewe that he could not thereby proue his assertion that they suddenly cut away so many goodly partes of the holy Bible much lesse that we had so done as he doeth in his booke charge vs. For which causes chiefly he would not as much as once open those bookes and for the same cause he woulde not looke vpon Kemnisius whome and vs by him he had likewise falsely charged When Master Campion could not shew these words out of any of those books by him alleaged nor any good matter to proue thē nor vs suddenly to haue rased mangled and spoyled the holy Scriptures as he chargeth vs of desperation in our cause to haue done then did we shewe him that we had not nowe suddenly as he vntruely reported cut off any part or line of the body of the holy Scriptures but made onely a difference betweene those bookes of the Scriptures that be commonly called Canonicall and of all men be taken for vndoubtedly true from those that haue bene long ago suspected of many and are called Apocrypha according as was before set downe by the ancient Doctors of the Church aboue a thousand yeres since more And for the proofe hereof we alleaged the testimonie of Saint Hierome In Catalogo Scriptorum ecclesiasticorum where he thus writes of the Epistle of Saint Iames named by Master Campion The Epistle of Saint Iames is sayd to be published by some other man vnder his name And of the second Epistle of Saint Peter he saith in the same booke that it is denied of many to be his by reason of the difference of the stile To this Master Campion answered that Hierome spake not of his owne iudgement but reported what others sayde of them We answered if Saint Hierome so reported of other mens sayings of those Epistles and did not him selfe gainesay it that it was a manifest token that he did not greatly mislike their sayings And seeing in S. Hieromes time and before those Epistles were doubted of you doe vs great wrong sayd we to charge vs that we haue suddenly cut them off from the body of the Bible who in deede notwithstanding the former doubtes of them gladly receaue and allowe them We alleaged againe S. Hierome In Prologo Galeato et Epistola ad Paulinum where hee sheweth his owne iudgement what bookes of the Scriptures of the olde Testament are to be taken for Canonicall and which haue bene doubted of which Epistles quoth we haue bene written and printed in all Bibles by the space of these thousand yeres and more to warne al readers of that difference of the said Apocrypha from the true Canonicall and to arme them as it were against the errour of confounding the Canonical Scriptures with these Apocrypha for the which cause as it seemeth hee also nameth that Prologue Galeatum as an helmet for defence against that error But nowe sitchence the Tridentine Councill some Popish printers haue left out the sayd Prologue and Epistle of S. Hierome who yet declareth this his iudgement likewise in his Preface to the first booke of Esdras also Sherwin one of Master Campions fellowes answered to these allegations that Hierome did Iudaizare and more was not ◅ayd to these places We also alleadged Eusebius who hauing made rehearsall of those bookes of the newe Testament which be vndoubtedly true nameth also such as were gainesayd and writes thus Quibus vero contradicitur c. those bookes that are gainesayde though they be knowen to many be these The Epistle which is attributed to S. Iames the Epistle of Iude the latter of Peter the second and third of Iohn And the same Eusebius in another place affirmeth plainely the sayd Epistle of S. Iames to be a counterfaite or bastard Epistle To this authoritie they said that it was true that he so said and as we alleadged them and that when he wrote it was lawfull for any man to doubt of those bookes that he called Apocrypha but seeing by the Church that was by the Councill of Carthage now also by the Councill of Trident they were receiued for Canonicall it was blasphemie they said to doubt of the authoritie of those bookes To that was replied that the Synode of Laodicea helde them for Apocrypha Yea said they but that Synode was not generall No more was that of Carthage said we No said they but that of Carthage was after confirmed by a generall Councill in Trullo So was quoth we the Synode of Laodicea which helde them for Apocrypha confirmed also by the same generall Councill in Trullo as there is to be seene But howe doth this agree that not long before you did saye absolutely that S. Iames epistle was written by the same spirit that S. Iohns Gospell was written with and now you ground the credit of S. Iames Epistle and the other vpon these Councils But said we these Councils had no authoritie to make any maner writings Canonical that was not before Canonicall For by the iudgement of S. Augustine in many places of his bookes there are two things requisite to proue any writing Canonicall one is the testimonie of the Church in which the authour liued
Queenes Maiestie was it I pray you so outragious in the Latine tongue as seuerally to admonish Master Campion him selfe without the vnderstanding of the common auditorie for one of vs to say Qui hic mos est mi homo Quis hic gestus Et loqueris pultas fores Gloriosus miles Proijcis ampullas sesquipedalia verba We may bee bolde to saye that considering Master Campions bragging in English and the admonition of the other in Latine there was no such outrage as they doe note But this they much disdaine that he sayde once Os impudens Truth it is but vpon his often and fierce affirmation that all the printed bookes of Luther in Englande were false and vpon Poundes odious interpellations as we knowe you to be a good Terence man and his most scornefull lookes through his fingers staring vpon him cōtinually whiles he was reasoning with Master Campion to put him out of his memorie hee being offended both with Poundes mockings wordes and lookes and with Campions shameles sayings brake out with Os impudens as he thinketh most deseruedly on their partes Yea but he vsed the word obgannire or oggannire Hee denieth not but comming by commandement to conferre with Campion onely when two or three of them spake together and many other of them muttered and sometime brake out into scornefull laughter he sayd Siccine tam multos oggannire obstrepere This is the rage and railing wherewith the Pamphleters do charge him They say that he by a Commissioners checke put the priests that would haue spoken and Master Sherwin to silence The trueth is that though we were sent onely to Master Campion at that time yet others did speake sometime and Master Sherwin specially very much almost as much as did Master Campion Whereupon not we but Master Lieutenant told him that he should be dealt with another time and willed him then to quiet himselfe Hereupon it is that the Pamphleters say wee should haue vsed them as the Queenes prisoners Wee say they should haue remembred and behaued them selues as becommed prisoners and not as Ruffians in all libertie or licentiousnes rather as they in deede and specially Master Campion in the forenoone behaued himself And yet the Pamphleters are not ashamed to write The Catholikes vsed no such wordes as did the Protestants and one of them specially but being passing modest went directly and soberly toche cause And againe God gaue Master Campion speaking very mildely as hee euer vsed such modestie in answering Thus write they c. Then surely his speaking did much differ from his writing as is to bee seene by that his chalenge and booke the most bragging and vaine glorious that euer was written Nowe Sherwin hath his contrarie commendation of whome they write thus But Master Sherwin like him selfe with excellent courage spake Master Sherwin here notably tooke the aduantage Crosse blowes were continually giuen to the Protestantes by Master Campion and Master Sherwin Master Campion and Master Sherwin framed their reasons exceedingly well with many such like commendations But of vs they write The Protestantes shufled vp the matter They answered to an argument of the Catholikes there be foure termes in this syllogisme and no further answere Silence here was their answere M. Daye hauing belike of olde collection an other place in store spent much time in that impertinent question The Deane of Paules when he could doe naught els grinded with his teeth for despite rage And so the Catholikes by the iudgement of those that were not wholly wedded to will did get the goale Scilicet But the Pamphleters labour about nothing more then to deliuer Master Campion from the note and blemish of ignorance in the Greeke tongue whereof one of them writeth thus The Deane of Paules and Master Beale shewed great ostentation towardes Campion in offring him a Greeke Testament to reade a text of Paul To whome Master Beale said Graecum est non potest legi calling vpon him to reade if hee could c to the others vtter defacing if he could haue procured it But our good Lord gaue the other such modestie in answering him as al indifferent persons were edified by it And refusing there to reade wherby Beale and the rest were flatly then persuaded it was for lacke of skill in the ende it fell out that Saint Basill was offered him in Greeke and the booke holden him by a minister wherein he read skilfully and by the hearing of all the auditorie confessed the text to be as they alleaged it answering it as before And withall quoth he let this man witnesse whether I can reade Greeke or no who in open hearing answered Uery well Whereupon being confounded We confesse quoth the Deane of Paules you can reade Greeke whereat some might haue blushed if they had had any such good humour in them Thus writeth one of them Another of them reporteth the matter thus It happened in processe of their disputations by occasion incident there was talke of a text of Scripture which forsoth must bee viewed by Master Campion to make the matter most plausible as the Protestāts imagined they caused a Greeke testamēt to be brought vnto him which he refused to take saying merily to his contrarie it shal be yours At which doing many laughed condemning him for ignorance of the tongue and therefore gestingly by the Protestants it was said Graecum est non potest legi It is Greeke perhaps it cannot be read Whereunto Master Campion gaue no answere but rested at the matter as a man vnable to reade Greeke or to vnderstand the same But it chaunced not long after that the Protestantes as they had prepared before were to alleage a place out of Saint Basil the Greeke doctor and againe thinking to giue the Catholikes another bob they commanded againe the booke of that ancient father to be giuen to Master Campion that he might reade whome before they derided as not able to doe the same But he tooke the booke and hauing one of their ministers at his elbowe both read and gaue the sense of the writer and bad him beare witnes that hee was able to reade and vnderstande Greeke whereat there was some admiration made among the Protestantes and he was demanded why hee did not so before who mildely answered that the print was ouer small Why saide they had you not declared so much before that had bene sufficiēt The like triall they made of an other Catholike to wit Maister Sherwin who by report of his fellowes and companions is very well seene in the Greeke and Hebrewe tongues yet hee tooke the booke and viewed it but openly did not reade which was imagined that he did to be accounted ignorant in the tongue or rather for that he was willed to holde his peace for that there should bee other times to talke Thus they write of this matter farre more largely and earnestly then of any other But the truthe is that when we had read the
I teache euery where in euery Church That he wrote and taught in one Church he wrote and taught in another and therefore 2. Cor. 1. he saith Nam gloriatio nostra est testimoniuÌ„ conscientiae nostrae c. Non enim alia scribimus vobis quam quâ—… legitis agnoscitis For this is our glorie euen the testimonie of our conscience c. For we write no other things vnto you then which you reade and knowe in deede Againe 2. Cor. 2. Quales sumus sermone per epistolas cum absumus tales sumus cum adsumus facto The same that we are in speach by our Epistles when we are absent such we are also when we are present Camp The same no contrarietie For there were afterwards many scriptures that were not then written Nowe therefore could they teache all thinges This Epistle was not then written and diuers others The meaning is they taught one Faith one Christ one doctrine but hee speaketh not of the Scriptures Walker He taught the same things that Moses and the Prophetes taught Quales sumus sermone per Epistolas tales facto Camp I graunt the same testimonies out of Moses and the Prophetes and Paul was as stout in speaking as in doing But what proueth this against me For he sayd more then he wrote Walker He sayd no more then is written in the Scripture Camp It is true that the Apostles proued all that they preached out of the scriptures out of the Lawe and the Prophetes and thereby iustified their preaching and yet that parte of the newe Testament which was afterwards written was not superfluous therefore sufficiencie employeth not that it must be expressed but that it may be gathered Walker You are one absent and another present You would bring in Idolatrie vnder the name of your traditions but I shew you that whatsoeuer we are to receaue it must be in the scripture Camp These are but wordes they neede no answere Walker Well I wil vrge you with matter out of Ambrose 1. Cor. 4. Super verba regnetis vt nos vobiscum regnemus Quicquid ab Apostolis tradituÌ„ non est sceleribus plenum est Whatsoeuer is not taught and deliuered by the Apostles is full of wickednes Camp He disputes against false Apostles and by waye of comparison he seuereth the traditions of Catholiques from those of Heretikes and this he doth to shew the difference of traditions and not to condemne traditions Walker It is an vniuersall proposition that all traditions that came not from the Apostles are full of wickednes but those which they wrote came not from them Ambrose also lib. 3. dc virginibus Nos noua omnia quae Christus non docuit iure damnamus quia sidelibus via Christus est Si igitur Christus non docuit quod docomus etiam nos id detestabile iudicamus We doe iustly condemne all new things which Christ hath not taught because Christ is the way vnto the faithfull If therefore Christ hath not taught that which we teache wee also doe iudge that to bee most detestable Campion This is against false prophetes whereof there were many that then went abrode from place to place teaching many things vnder the names of the Apostles that were none of theirs Walker Uery well So there are things taught by you vnder their names which are none of theirs wherefore we may conclude you to be in the number of false prophetes Christ saith Iohn 15. Omnia quae audiui à patre meo nota feci vobis I haue shewed all things to you which I haue heard of my father He shewed all thinges necessarie to saluation and therefore this is the conclusion Iohn 20. Haec scripta sunt vt vitam habeatis ideo vita consistit in ijs quae scripta sunt These things are written that ye might haue life therefore life consisteth in those things which are written Tertullian de praescriptionibus Haereticorum Apostolos enim domini habemus authores qui nec ipsi quicquam ex suo arbitrio quod inducerent eligerunt sed acceptam à Christo disciplinam fideliter nationibus assignauerunt Itaque etiamsi Angelus de coelis aliter euangelizaret c. We haue the Apostles for our authors who neither themselues chose any thing that they brought in of their owne brayne but they faithfully assigned that discipline which they had receiued from Christ to the nations Therefore albeit an Angell should preach otherwise from heauen c. Campion Christ did teach all and therefore the Apostles writte all that Christ taught Nego argumentum I deny the argument Walker Why Haec scripta sunt vt vitam habeamus These things are written that wee may haue life what neede wee more Campion Enough is written but in such sorte as was sayd before either in generall wordes or speciall either discoursed or touched Walker Although as the Euangelist saith Iohn 21. Multa alia fecit Iesus in conspectu discipulorum suorum quae non sunt scripta in hoc libro Iesus did many other things in the sight of his disciples which are not written in this booke as true it is hee wrought many miracles before his death to declare himselfe to be the sonne of God and after his resurrection to declare that he had a true bodie which both did suffer and was raysed vp agayne And Luke Act. 1. sayth Scripsi tibi Theophile de omnibus quae Christus tum fecit tum docuit I haue written vnto thee o Theophilus concerning all things which Christ both hath done hath taught He saith De omnibus non singulis For then if euery particular worde and act of Christ had bene written the worlde could not haue receiued the volumes of bookes that should haue bene written Iohn 2. 5 9. But these things are written Iohn 20. 9. that ye might beleeue and in beleeuing haue eternall life Wherefore Scrutamini scripturas quia in ijs non alibi vita quaerenda Iohn 5. Searche the scriptures because in them is life and not els where to be sought Charke This you haue beene inforced to graunt that all thinges necessarie to saluation are contained manifestly in the Scriptures Campion I graunt it with my distinction they are either manifestly written or conteined vnder that generall commaundement Obey your prelates Charke To proue that whatsoeuer you teache ought to bee in the written worde of GOD I haue a plaine place out of Tertullian against Hermogenes which also maketh strongly against you His wordes are these Scriptum esse doceat Hermogenis officina si non est scriptum timeat vae illud adijcientibus aut detrahentibus destinatum Let Hermogenes schole shewe that it is written if it be not written let him feare that curse appointed for them which adde or take from the scriptures Campion Where say you is this place of Tertullian Charke In his booke aduersus Hermogenem Camp Aduersus Hermogenem I thinke ye are deceiued there is no such booke in Tertullian
mislike onely he sayd that he vnderstoode not of our comming Then we beginning with the first part of his sayd booke did demaund of him with what reason he could charge the Queenes Maiesties most mercifull gouernment and vs that at this time professe the Gospel as he did in yâ— Preface of his said booke with unused and strange crueltie and torments practised vpon his fellowes in religion seeing that the Authors and professors of their Religion had most cruelly burnt aliue so many thousands of vs for the maintenance of our Religion onely besides diuers other wayes of most horrible torments whereas none of them was euer executed for Religion but either for treason or some other notorious crime punishable with death by the Lawes of the Realme Whereunto he answered that he was punished for Religion himselfe and had bene twise on the Racke and that racking was more grieuous then hanging and that he had rather chuse to be hanged then racked Whereunto one of vs sayd that belike Master Campion being the Popes tender Pernell accounteth a litle racking of him selfe to be more crueltie then the roasting quicke of many thousands of vs. You must quoth Master Campion consider the cause the cause why and not the punishment onely It hath bene euer your maner sayd we not onely to vse petitione principij but totius also not only to require a principal point in controuersie but euen the whole it self to be graunted vnto you as that your cause is good and that you be the true Church of Christ as you continually presume and take vnto you But thanks be to God the contrarie hath bene so prooued that a great part of Christendome doeth euidently see it And many thousands who were before of your Church haue fled to vs from it as from the synagogue of Antichrist And concerning his racking Master Lieutenant being present sayde that he had no cause to complaine of racking who had rather seene then felt the racke and admonished him to vse good speache that hee gaue not cause to be vsed with more seuerity For although said he you were put to the racke yet notwithstanding you were so fauourablie vsed therein as being taken off you could and did presently go thence to your lodging without helpe and vse your handes in writing and all other partes of your body which you could not haue done if you had bene put to that punishment with any such extremitie as you speake of Besides this Master Beale one of the Clarks of her Maiesties priuie Counsell being by chaunce present demaunded of him before all the companie there assembled whether that being on the racke he were examined vpon any point of Religion or no Whereunto he answered that he was not in deede directly examined of Religion but moued to confesse in what places he had bene conuersant since his repaire into the Realme Master Beale sayde that this was required of him because many of his fellowes and by likelihood he him selfe also had reconciled diuers of her Highnes subiectes to the Romish Church and had attempted to withdrawe them from their obedience due to their naturall Prince and Soueraigne Whereunto he answered that forasmuch as the Christians in olde time being commanded to deliuer vp the bookes of their Religion to such as persecuted them refused so to doe and misliked with them that did so calling them Traditores he might not betray his Catholike brethren which were as he sayd the temples of the holy Ghost But it was replied by Master Beale that it was conuenient in policie for the Prince to vnderstande what such as were sent from the Bishop of Rome her Maiesties and the Realmes mortall enemie did within her dominions and to knowe her foes from her faithful subiects specially in such a time as this wherein we liue that this inquirie did not touch the cause of Religion After this we came to the matter of his booke And first where he chargeth vs that we haue nowe of a sudden cut off many goodly and principall partes of the holy Scriptures from the whole body thereof of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as hee writeth and for example and proofe thereof he nameth first the Epistle of Saint Iames which Luther that flagitious Apostata saith he in the Preface of the same Epistle and in his booke De captiuitate Babilonica nameth contentious puffed vp drie or barren as a thing stuffed with strawe and iudgeth it vnworthie the Apostolique spirit wee answered that if Luther had so written yet Master Campion did vs wrong to charge vs with violating of the Maiestie of the holy Bible for reiecting of the sayde Epistle of S. Iames who doe and alwayes haue receiued the same Epistle Yet we prayed him that he would shewe these wordes in the places by him noted which he sayd he would if he had the bookes The booke wherein was Luthers Preface to that Epistle being deliuered him when he had read some part of the sayd Preface and found that Luther did allowe and commend that Epistle as in deede he doeth testifying that though it were reiected of some olde writers yet he commended it and tooke it to be good and profitable which wordes of Luther when Master Campion had read he shut the booke and sayde that it was not of the true edition We answered that the print was not lately published being almost fourtie yeeres sithence and that we had searched all other printes that we could come by and found them to agree with this and that we thought there was no other and therefore we prayed him that he would shewe some edition wherein it was so set downe as he alleaged it in his booke He sayd he thought it was so as he had alleaged in the same booke of Luther in the Dutch tongue Then we offered to bring him the Dutch booke for the triall of the trueth of the Latin translation but he refused to see the same But it was aduouched vnto him as the trueth is in deede that it was likewise in the Dutch booke as he had read it in the Latin for that we had made conference thereof Then he desired to see Luthers booke De captiuitate Babilonica This booke also we deliuered to him and desired that he would shewe those wordes there He read the wordes in Latin which are these in effect I passe ouer saith Luther that many doe very probablie affirme that this Epistle is not Saint Iames the Apostles nor worthie the Apostolike spirit Here Master Campion thought that he had founde at the least that Luther had sayd that the sayd Epistle was not worthie the Apostolike spirit But wee prayed him to consider that Luther spake of other mens iudgement and not of his owne as in the same place is most euident to see and also before in his Preface to that Epistle he expresly deuideth his iudgement from theirs But Master Campion much vrged the wordes very probably whereby saith
when he wrote The other is the continuall contestation of the Churches succeeding To this effect writeth S. Augustine and so be all latter Churches barred from authoritie to make any writings canonicall scripture specially those that haue of olde bene doubted of They may testifie what the olde Churches before them haue done as we nowe doe Hereunto they saide againe that it was blasphemie after those Councils to call those bookes Apocrypha or to doubt of the authoritie of them It is rather most horrible blasphemie said we to make humane writings equall with the Canonicall scriptures as of late your Tridentine Councill hath done and as your Pope being but one man hath made his Decretal epistles then with S. Hierome Eusebius and other ancient godly fathers to call those bookes Apocrypha which they do so call And we said that notwithstanding those Councils Caietanus their Popes Cardinall thought it no blasphemie who in the ende of his expositions vpon the olde testament in very plaine wordes maketh the same difference of the bookes of the scriptures doeth not onely alowe the iudgement of Hierome but addeth further that all writitings yea of bishops of Rome them selues of whome he nameth some must be brought to S. Hieroms rule They vtterly reiected Cardinall Caietanus because as they said he was but one man against all the Church We said you of your side will not be charged with the wordes of others though they be the Popes Cardinals and yet you doe thinke it reason that we should be charged with euery worde that hath slipped from Luther Nay you charge him and vs by him with that which you can neuer proue that he did write or speake Hart said further that Caietanus was a good scholemā and traueled in that course with commendation but when hee began to become an expositor of the scriptures said he then he lost his grace and credit We answered if they thought it reason to charge vs with all the sayings of Luther or of any other we might by good and great reason charge them with the sayings of so great learned a Cardinall of Rome as Caietanus was Last of all wee came to the place of S. Augustine in his second booke De doctrina Christiana Which Campion and his fellowes gladly receiued because they said it made for them and not for vs. For saide they S. Augustine rehearseth those bookes for Canonicall scriptures which you call Apocrypha To this wee answered that they shoulde rather charge Saint Hierome and Eusebius and other auncient fathers who doe call them Apocrypha And S. Augustine in that place rehearsing the order of the bookes of scriptures though said we he differ somwhat from Eusebius and S. Hierome in shewe of wordes yet hee doeth in deede agree with them For where they deuide the bookes of the scriptures into three sorts that is Canonicall Apocrypha and feigned or vntrue Augustine deuideth them into Canonicall and Apocrypha onely and then he deuideth the Canonicall bookes into two sortes that is those that be certainely true which we with S. Hierome and Eusebius do call properly Canonicall and those that haue bene doubted of which Eusebius and S. Hierome do call Apocrypha And S. Augustine nameth those that be vtterly vntrue Apocrypha which Eusebius calleth doubtfull feigned and forged And this may be gathered out of Augustine him selfe in diuers places whereof we haue noted some And albeit Augustine calleth those bookes Canonicall yet he giueth not the like authoritie to them as namely to the Maccabees and to the other of that sort as he doeth to those that be Christes the Lords witnesses as he nameth them which be these that are named properly Canonicall Here would they not admit in any wise that the worde Canonicall was aequiuocum or of diuers significations in diuers places but that wheresoeuer that worde was founde it brought all bookes so called vnder one kinde Much time was spent here about and the matter was much argued on Master Campion and his fellowes part At the last Master Campion was desired by vs to reade the chapter in that Canon law beginning In Canonicis which Gratian takes out of this place of Augustine and first that hee would reade the rubrick which he seemed both to do And Pound one of his companions sitting by who with his importunitie impertinent speaches had often interrupted the course of the conference saide Father Campion let them reade their places them selues Yet at the length Master Campion read it and it is thus Inter Canonicas scripturas Decretales Epistolae connumerantur which after much desiring he englished also The decretall Epistles are numbred together among the Canonicall Scriptures Whereupon one of vs saide you charge vs with blasphemie for naming those bookes Apocrypha which Saint Hierome Eusebius and other ancient holy fathers doe so name but here may you see most horrible blasphemie in deede in the Canonical lawe of your Pope which matcheth his Decretall Epistles that is meere fables with the Maiestie of the Canonicall Scriptures as he doeth in this distinction and sundry other places whereby you may see to what point this boldnesse of making mens writings Canonicall Scriptures is come Then saide we to M. Campion do you hold that Popes decrees for Canonical scriptures as you do the bookes of Moyses and the Prophets He answered no and graunted then that the worde Canonicall was aequinocum or of diuers significations which before they all did so constantly denie Whereupon we sayde that we had some good hope of Master Campion for that he blushed And we sayde further that Cardinall Caietanus in the place before alleadged sayeth expressely that S. Augustine placed those books in the Canon of maners but not in the Canon of doctrine whereby he plainely declareth that the word Canonicall is aequiuocum After this he was desired to reade the text of that Chapter and there he founde and could not denie but that the place of Augustine was vntruely reported by Gratian and by manifest corruption drawē altogether from the meaning of Augustine For where S. Augustine saith that those Scriptures are to be taken for Canonicall which the most or greatest part of Christian Churches so take among the which those Churches be which deserued to haue Apostolique Seas and to receiue Epistles from the Apostles these wordes of S. Augustine are chaunged and in the place of the Apostolique Seas is put the Apostolique Sea meaning the Church of Rome and those Churches which deserued to receaue Epistles from the said Church of Rome which is cleane contrary to S. Augustines wordes and meaning Both often before and here specially Master Campion and his fellowes seemed to be desirous to dispute vpon some pointes of religion rather then to continue in this examination of his booke which we said we woulde not at afternoone refuse but the forenoone qd we is so farre spēt that we must at this time make
an ende And then turning vs to the auditorie we said You haue heard howe Master Campion in his printed booke hath charged vs as rasers manglers and spoylers of the holy Scriptures of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as he saith You haue heard how he would proue vs so to be by certeine places by him in his said printed booke noted as being the wordes of Luther and others in their bookes You haue heard and seene proued by the bookes them selues that there is no such thing to be founde in those places of their bookes as he hath set downe but onely that S. Hierome and Eusebius aboue a thousande yeere sithen doubted of the authoritie of those Epistles bookes And you haue heard and it is vniuersally knowen that S. Hieroms Prologue and Epistle wherein he noteth those bookes to be Apocrypha haue bene ioyned with all Bibles that haue bene written and printed euer since S. Hieromes time by the space of a xi hundred yeeres and more vntill now of late sithen the Tridētine Councill some Popish Printers haue left them out And you haue heard that not onely now of late the Councill Tridentine hath made the Apocrypha of equal authoritie with the vndoubted Canonical scriptures but also that it is set down in the B. of Romes Canon law that his Decretal epistles are to be numbred together among the Canonical scriptures so finally you see what iniurie these men do thēselues to the holy scriptures what blasphemy they haue cōmitted in matching their fables with the Canonical scriptures who do most vniustly charge vs with those crimes Sherwin said but you should haue told withall what we haue answered to all those pointes We said your answere is to be looked for when you can bring foorth your copies which you speake of and promised for in any bookes by you named extant and to be had there is nothing of that which M. Campion hath set downe to be found And here the time being spent we made an end for that forenoones conferēce The after noones conference IN the fore noones conference both Master Campion himselfe others of his companions had oftentimes required vs that we woulde deale with them in some matter of doctrine and leaue that course that we began with in the examining of his booke Whereunto we answered that we were minded if the time would suffer vs to examine other partes of his booke and lay it open to the audience there howe that as he had most vntruly charged Luther and others with the mangling and spoyling of the bodie of the holy Scriptures in the beginning of his booke so had he likewise most vntruly and impudently in other places slaundered other worthie men and vpon the same his good groundes he had charged vs all as rasers and manglers of the holy Scriptures And surely our opinion was that if any thing at all that laying open before his face of his continuall vntrueths which he hath so braggingly aduouched in his booke might haue reclaimed him For vndoubtedly he could neuer haue endured the manifestation of those his lyes as they were in the confutation of his booke shortly after set out had they bene layde open before his eyes which might manifestly appeare to all that did marke his gentle and milde behauiour and speach in the After noones conference in comparison of his bragging and lewde wordes vsed in the forenoone Notwithstanding at our meeting at after noone we sayde vnto Master Campion seeing your desire is so much to dispute in some matter of doctrine we will not refuse But first we pray you let vs qd we peruse the Canon that foloweth that which we last dealt with in the fore noone concerning the Popes Canons and the Canonicall Scriptures for that the time would not then suffer vs to reade it The wordes of Pope Leo the fourth there translated worde for worde are these For this cause I feare not to pronounce more plainely and with a loude voyce that he that is conuinced not to receiue indifferently the statutes of the holy fathers which we haue spoken of before which with vs are intituled by the name of Canons whether he be a Bishop a Clarke or a laye man that he is proued neither to beleeue nor to holde profitably and effectually to his effect the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels This saith Pope Leo. You may see quoth we whereunto this boldnesse of matching mens writings with the holy Canonical Scriptures is come Fore here Pope Leo with a loude voyce pronounceth that whosoeuer doeth not indifferently receiue the Canons is conuicted neither to reteine effectually nor beleeue the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels whereby he matcheth the beleeuing receiuing or refusing of his Canons with the beleeuing or refusing of the foure holy Gospels for so we said that the proofe of that Canon and the worde indifferently did importe Master Campion indeuoured very much to quallifie this worde indifferentèr indifferently and so to mollifie the Popes blasphemie if he coulde and he confessed that there was difference betweene the Euangelistes and other writers for that the Euangelistes and writers of the Scriptures coulde not erre in memorie or any other circumstance but Councils might be deceiued in some such small matters of circumstance As for example sayeth he I am bounde vnder paine of damnation to beleeue that Tobias dogge had a tayle because it is written he wagged his tayle It was sayd by vs that it became him not to deale so triflingly in matters of such waight Why then saith he if this example like you not take another I must beleeue that Saint Paul had a cloake because hee willeth Timothie to bring his cloake We said these thinges were nothing to purpose vnlesse hee could proue that such a promise was made to the bishop of Rome and his Coūcils that whatsoeuer they should determine was sure to be true and certaine They alleaged Christes saying Hee that heareth not the Church let him be reputed as a publicane and heathen We answered that text serued them for all purposes But first they must proue them selues to be the true Church before that text would belong vnto them And where they alleaged out of the 15. of the Actes So it seemeth to the holy Ghost and vs. Wee answered wee knewe well enough that that Councill was gouerned by the holy Ghost wherein the Apostles were president But what maketh that to the wicked Councils of Popes And after much reasoning about the worde indifferenter we said were that word put out yet were it blasphemie to saye that he that beleeueth not the Popes Canōs which are with other there mentioned beleeueth not the foure holy Gospels After this wee began our disputation concerning iustification both for that it is first of all other mentioned in your booke quoth we to Master Campion and both Luther and we all are most grieuously charged by you
with error therein and also for that it is in deede a matter of the chiefest controuersie betweene vs. And first for that you doe in your booke vntruely charge Luther and vs by him with the cutting away of Saint Iames epistle for that the wretche as you saie of Luther was by this epistle vanquished and ouerthrowen and for that that epistle doth so manifestly conuince his and our error in this matter of iustification as you do write we do protest that we will neither refuse nor make any exception to that epistle of Saint Iames nor to any other part of the newe Testament which you vntruely haue charged vs to haue cut off from the bodie of the holy scriptures It is well said they that you doe receaue this Epistle of Saint Iames. We haue euer receiued it saide we Howe much the more vntruely haue you charged vs with the contrarie And so entering into the matter we said Whereas you doe charge Luther with him vs all for teaching a newe and false doctrine yea heresie also in that we saie and write that we are iustified by faith onely we say for our defence against this your slaunder that the same doctrine is taught both in many places of the holy scriptures most effectually and is also expressely affirmed and pronounced by the ancient holy fathers and doctors of Christes Church both Greekes and Latines in the verie same wordes that wee do vse Let vs heare your scriptures and doctors sayd they Thē for that we came purposed to examine y◠vntruthes of Campions booke rather then to dispute we did very briefly as our memorie did then serue vs note rather then thorowly alleage many places out of the holy scriptures for the proofe of our iustification by faith and consequently by faith onely to this effect Our sauiour Christ saide we as it is in sundrie places of the Euangelistes recorded saith often Thy faith hath saued thee Onely beleeue beleeue onely They shall receaue remission of their sinnes and inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me As many as beleeue in me to them hath God giuen power to become the sonnes of God Whosoeuer beleeueth in me shall not be condemned shall not perish but haue euerlasting life Thus saith our sauiour Christ c. And Saint Paul saith Beleeue in the Lord Iesus Christ and thou shalt be saued God doeth iustifie thorowe faith Wee are saued by grace thorowe faith We are blessed by faith We are the children of Abraham yea we are the children of God by faith The righteousnes of God by the faith of Iesus Christ vnto all and vpon vs all that beleeue If thou confesse with the mouth the Lorde Iesus and shalt beleeue in thine heart that God raised him vp from the dead thou shalt be saued For with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnes and with the mouth man confesseth vnto saluation We are freely iustified by his grace thorowe faith Then said they we knowe right well that the scriptures doe conteine great commendations of faith but in all these there is not this worde faith onely which is your doctrine But the ancient holy fathers said wee vpon these groundes of the scriptures by vs alleaged doe gather and plainly pronounce that onely faith iustifieth as you shall heare anone And howe many thinges saide we doe you your selfe teach vs as necessarie articles of religion not hauing for you one plaine worde therefore but doe affirme that in effect they are conteined in the holy scriptures And you haue heard that iustification and righteousnes yea saluation and the kingdom of heauen are attributed to faith and that without any addition of any other thing And you haue heard the wordes of our Sauiour beleeue onely only beleeue And of Saint Paul you are freely iustified by faith which are in effect as much as faith onely and to more effect exceedingly then are your proofes of a great many of the principal pointes of your Popish religion And where as we meane none other by faith onely but faith without the workes of the Lawe and without our good workes if the former place can not satisfie you heare what Saint Paul sayeth further Know ye that a man is not iustified by the workes of the Lawe but by the faith of Iesus Christ. The righteousnes of God is made manifest without the Lawe by the faith of Iesus Christ vnto all and vpon all that beleeue We holde that a man is iustified by faith without the deedes of the Lawe It is one God that iustifieth circumcision by faith and vncircumcision through faith Euery one that beleeueth is absolued from all from the which they could not be absolued by the Lawe of Moses Thus saith Saint Paul and to the like effect in exceeding many places declaring that we are iustified by faith and not by the Law by faith and not by workes which is all one as to say by faith onely No it is not all one sayd they But the ancient doctors of the Church said we do vpon these very places of the holy scriptures by vs alleaged gather and in expresse wordes set downe as we doe that we are iustified by faith onely as ye shall see Saint Hillary quoth we sayeth thus reading his wordes out of the booke it selfe Mouit scribas remissum ab homine peccatum hominem enim tantum in Iesu Christo contuebantur remissum ab eo quod lex laxare non poterat fides en◅m sola iustificat That is to say It moued the scribes that sinne was remitted by man for they behelde man onely in Iesus Christ and that was remitted by him the which the Lawe can not release for faith onely doeth iustifie Thus farre Saint Hilary who as you doe see of this doctrine of Saint Paul by vs alleadged for iustification by faith without the Lawe gathereth and setteth downe the same doctrine in the same wordes that we doe teach that faith onely doeth iustifie But he saith not so in the same sense that you doe saith Master Campion We shall see of the sense anon saide we but we pray you heare the other doctors also who doe agree with vs in the same wordes Saint Ambrose also vpon the place by vs alleaged out of the third to the Romanes among many other sentences hath this Non iustificari hominem apud Deum nisi per fidem That a man is not iustified before God but by faith And shortly after Saint Ambrose saith Tam Gentiles quam Iudeos non aliter quam credentes iustificauit Quia enim vnus Deus est vna ratione omnes iustificauit That is both the Gentiles and the Iewes God hath iustified none other wayes but beleeuing For because there is one God he hath iustified all by one meanes And most plainely vpon the wordes by vs before alleaged he sayeth Iustificati gratis per gratiam ipsius Iustificati sunt gratis quia nihil operantes neque
take them as done vnto himselfe yet were it an intollerable arrogancie for vs to say We fed thee when thou wast hungry c. Or to say Giue vs the reward of our cuppe of colde water which thou promisedst we should not loose Wherefore as we sayd that merces and rewarde or hire is of the grace and mercie of God giuing it and not of the merite of man receiuing it which is according to y◠true doctrine of y◠holy scriptures that not flesh or man doe glorie or reioyce but that he who doeth glorie or reioyce in his iustification and saluation may glorie and reioyce in the Lord onely For Saint Paul sayeth Where is then thy reioysing It is excluded By what lawe of workes Nay but by the lawe of faith Therefore we conclude that a man is iustified by faith with out the workes of the lawe And againe If Abraham were iustified by workes he hath wherein to reioyce but not with God For to him that worketh the wages is not counted by fauour but by debt But to him that worketh not but beleeueth in him that iustifieth the vngodly his sayth is counted for righteousnes And againe Now if by grace then not of works for so grace is not nowe grace c. Thus farre Saint Paul Whereby you may see that if iustification and saluation shoulde be attributed to the merites of mans good workes it would occasion boasting and glorying in the fleshe and chalenging of our iustification and saluation as due vnto the merite of our works so much abate abase the glorie of Gods grace that grace should then no more deserue the name of grace But if iustification and saluation be as it ought to bee giuen wholy vnto Gods grace and mercy promised vnto vs in Christ Iesu which we doe apprehend and lay hold of by fayth onely as the onely instrumentall cause vnder Gods grace then is all the glorie and honour of our iustification giuen vnto God onely without any merite of man And so we conclude as we sayd before that we meane not by faith onely to exclude the doing but the meriting of good workes One of them alleadged the wordes of our Sauiour He that beleeueth and is baptized shal be saued And hereupon he saide We grant that n◅ merite doth preceede this fayth Whereunto one of vs sayd when he was baptized and obtayned that first grace and iustification which Master Campion speaketh of he may safely graunt that no good workes doe preceede or go before that iustification which hee had in his infancie the which no worke at all doe or can preceede but for his parte sayde he when he doth consider howe after that first grace hee hath most vngratiously broken the vowe made to God in Baptisme and how fewe and small good workes he had done towards the atteyning of any second iustification which Master Campion speaketh of howe many and great euill workes hee hath done how much of his life his time and goods he had mispent howe little he had spent in the seruice and to the honour of God howe late he came to the Lordes vineyarde and howe loytering a labourer he had bene in that short time Surely quoth hee for my part when I doe looke vpon my righteous workes so fewe and so imperfect and on the other side vpon my vnrighteous deedes so many and so sinnefull I can not but thinke it to be a most damnable arrogancie to chalenge any part of that seconde righteousnesse or of the kingdome of heauen by so fewe and small good workes and do see how great occasion I should giue therby that God should condemne me for my so many and great euill workes in respect of which I cannot but dispaire of any desert or merite towardes that seconde iustification that you doe speake of Here Master Campion to shewe belike that he was no Pharisee I must confesse also sayd he that I haue bene most defectiue in all good workes and in deede a loytering labourer as you tearme it in the Lords vineyarde What remedie then quoth the other The remedie quoth Master Campion is the mercie of God in Christ Iesus That is quoth the other that I beleeue and this my beliefe onely in his mercies thorowe Christ and not in any late and loytering worke is that faith that shall saue me and you too I trust and therefore quoth he here as in some good hope of our agreement in this poynt of iustification by faith onely without any merite of workes which we trust we haue by the holy Scriptures and by the ancient Doctors both Greekes and Latines by examples yea and by our consciences sufficiently proued if it shall so please Master Lieutenant let vs make an end and so we ended our conference A briefe recitall of certaine vntruthes scattered in the Pamphlets and libels of the Papists concerning the former conferences with a short answere vnto the same WE thought it not amisse here in the ende to note some of the principall poynts vntruely set downe by the authors of such Pamphlets as haue hitherto come to our handes concerning this conference First they leaue no circumstances of Master Campions imprisonment his racking sicknes lacke of his note bookes of his librarie our sodaine cōming vpon him c. vntouched But they that will consider his bragging chalenge made in his booke and prompt readines to dispute with all protestants howe lately his booke was before by him set out and howe fresh in his memorie and howe we dealt with him onely in his owne booke and in a fewe pointes in the verie beginning thereof and did bring with vs all those bookes which he himselfe had noted and alleaged and gaue them into his handes and our selues also hauing made ready the places in the said bookes by him noted to ease his trauell in seeking of them who will I saye consider these things may hereby easily vnderstand their allegations of sodaine taking of him and his lacke of bookes to be most vaine And hee himselfe by his lowde speaches and bolde and busie gestures shewed no token of any either sicknesse or weaknesse neither did him selfe then complaine vpon those difficulties which the Pamphleters hath so diligently largely noted sithē They do charge some of vs and specially one with vncourteous wordes and vncomely for professors of the Gospell as they saye spoken to Master Campion and others But they shewe not vpon what occasion by Master Campion and others of his companions offred these wordes were spoken For when Master Campion did rise vp from the forme whereon he fate did cast vp and fling with his handes and armes did knocke and beate vpon his booke at euery other worde with an exceeding lowde voyce and sharpe countenance affirming that all our printed bookes were false and that he would procure true copies to be sent from the Emperours Maiestie from the Duke of Bauaria and from another prince whom we remember not vnto the
sentences out of the Greeke Testament and Doctors once or twise our selues wee offered the Greeke Testament first and afterwardes Nazianzene in Greeke to Campion to reade that he might credit his owne eyes and that we alleaged their wordes truely But he refused to reade in the Greeke testament altogether as them selues do here confesse And when Saint Basill and Nazianzen in Greeke were offered to him to reade he said once or twise I knowe I knowe it is as ye haue alleaged which we tooke to be a shift to auoyde the reading of it him selfe But when he was vrged Master Stollard who stood by tooke the booke and held it to him he read but so softly as it were to him selfe that wee may with good conscience protest before God that we heard not one word so farre off was it that he read skilfully in the hearing of all the auditorie as they doe write But surely whosoeuer did knowe Campions vayne may thinke that hee would haue read in the hearing of al the auditorie in deede had he had any knowledge in that tongue and not so haue whispered to him selfe or in Master Stollardes eare Truthe it is that he saide Let this man witnes whether I can reade Greeke or no. But why did hee not reade so that not he alone but that all we might haue bene witnesses thereof But saye they Master Stollard said hee read very well They onely heard him so saye belike for of truth he said to vs If he did reade at all he read the worst that euer I heard which some of vs thought that Master Stollard spake for that wee hauing read those fewe wordes of Nazianzen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 once or twise before the booke was giuen Campion he might seeme out of his memorie to haue repeated them rather then to haue read them out of the booke Nowe that we should be in any admiration hereat as they write what cause was there For that we should aske him why he did not so much before who heard him then not reade one word or that the Deane of Pauls confounded should say We confesse you can reade Greeke or that there was any cause giuen why we should blush or be confounded are most impudent lies and most meete for such reporters Nay rather may all Papistes blush for Campions sake who making such a chalenge as though he had had all knowledge in all learning and languages when it came to the triall vpon conscience of his ignorance durst not reade openly one short sentence in Saint Basill or Nazianzen the bookes being of a large and faire print Surely wee before our comming thither vpon Campions owne bragging challenge and booke and other mens reportes of him thought wee should haue bene sore incumbred by his learning and ouermatched by his knowledge in the tongues so farre off was it that wee meant to make any ostentation therein towardes him as they write but vpon experience and triall with him we found him not to be that man that we looked for and went away with that opinion that the booke which was so sodainely after his bragging chalenge put in print was none of his writing much lesse penned by him as he was in his iourney as he reported him selfe but that it was elaborate before by the common and long studie of all the best learned Iesuites to serue at all oportunities To the same effect is the report of Sherwin who looking vpon the Greeke Testament and reading neuer a worde goeth yet away thereby not onely with the commendation of a man very well seene in the Greeke and Hebrew tongues but also of singular modestie and contempt of all praises as seeking to be accounted ignorant in that wherein he had great skill For that they would haue the cause of his not reading to be for that he was willed to hold his peace is very ridiculous for he did oft speake after he was so willed to holde him selfe contented and then he was specially desired to reade and not to holde his peace But we thought the truthe to be that when Sherwin had alleaged out of the second to the Ephesians after the olde translation Creati in bonis operibus we were created in good workes and the originall Greeke being shewed vnto him when he found it to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad bona opera created to do good workes he looked in the beginning and in the ende of the Greeke Testament trusting as wee thought that if he might haue found that it had bene printed in any place where the Gospel is preached hee might after Campions exāple haue made a challenge to the print as false which is now become a speciall shift of the Papistes and the last refuge when all other do faile but when he did see that it was Plantines print hee held his peace Notwithstanding we do not thinke but that Sherwin could reade Greeke the ignorance wherof we neither obiected to any nor did make any ostentation as they write of any our knowledge therein Only we offered the bookes them selues vnto Campion that his owne eyes might bee witnesses that the auncient fathers both Greekes and Latines did teache iustification by faith alone euen as we do By which occasion God as wee thinke by the opening of his ignorance meant to controll his vaine glorious bragging of all knowledge and habilitie to deale with all men Thus much and to much of this matter were it not that the reader may hereby vnderstand what vantages these writers and reporters doe take vnto them selues yea and by speedy and continuall spreading and beating of the same into the eares and heads of many do much preuaile also vntill time the mother of truthe shall discouer their vntruthes But we may by no meanes dissemble another matter by these Pamphleters sore laide to our charge Saint Augustine in the fourtenth chapter of his booke De fide operibus was by some of them in our conference as we thinke alleaged as against our doctrine of iustification by faith alone but in that confusion of many speaking at once it was not greatly by any of vs marked or said vnto that we remember But the authors of the Pamphlets do report this place of Saint Augustine as by them of al other most effectually alleaged against vs. Their words be these Unto this was added by the Catholikes the authoritie of Saint Augustine out of his booke De fide operibus and the fourtenth chapter where he hath registred that this doctrine of Iustification by faith onely was an heresie taught in the Apostles time for reformation whereof he declareth that Saint Iohn Saint Peter S. Iude and Saint Iames did write their Epistles wherein they so much inculcate the doctrine of good workes Thus they write thus they whisper in euery eare open vnto them to the slander of vs and our doctrine of iustification by faith onely as not onely an errour but an heresy also But wee doe
polluted the very Aultar of God being remoued and an idolatrous altar set in the place Campion That is not alike for we haue our functions free we may sacrifice euery where say Masse vpon euery mountaine Fulke Like enough for that matter But there was not so much as an outward face of the Church the high Priest being an Idolater and the true Altar taken away and therefore there could bee no visibilitie You answere nothing to the matter but abuse the presence with multitude of wordes and therefore committing the iudgement to them that be wise and learned I will giue place vnto my brother Mast. D. Goade Concerning the short warning the case is al one with vs as it was with you we had no longer deliberation thē you had litle aboue one dayes space concerning the question and therefore you haue no cause to complaine c. Campion What shall I call your worships name Goade My name is Goade Campion Yes that may appeare by this preparation as it were to a set and solemne thing these bookes also declare besides the bringing of a writer with you c. Goade Well all these concerne not the matter you had word assone as we and were so made acquainted with the question as it was of your own choice c. but in deede you are gone from the state of the question against which we came prepared being of the whole Catholike Church as your owne booke doth importe and it is apparant that you haue wrongfully challenged our definition being as hath bene truely sayd of the Church in general wel we must I see now followe whether you leade vs. We must leaue the Catholike Church and talke of the militant Church the generall goe to a particular One thing before I ioyne with you I woulde wish you to forbeare namely your dealing with the present state and personall speaches it will better beseeme modestie and pertaine more to the matter we haue in hande c. which may be performed with lesse waste of wordes and more humilitie You answere not to the report I haue heard of you for modest behauing your selfe in conference Campion Concerning my selfe I will lay my handes vnder your feete but I must not hūble God to you you know who saith Ne sis humilis in sapientia tua be not humble in thy wisedome I must with courage mainteine religion Haec est sapientia vestra coram populo this is your wisdome before the people c. I must not be prayed in religion Goade Howe fitly those places of Scripture are applied I will not now stande to discusse but concerning the state of the question as your selfe set it downe you are fallen from it And the Church euen as it is vpon earth being but a part of the Catholike Church I will proue sometime to be hidden But what meane you when you write that it must be of the nature of the Church to be visible Campion I meane that it must be an essentiall marke of the Church and such a qualitie as is inseparable It must be as visible as fire is hote water moist c. Goade Uery good but as you vnderstande this qualitie of visibilitie you declare your selfe to dissente from others of your side who by visible vnderstand a notable glorious Church who hath her beautie and pompe as your Bristow writeth her continuall succession of Bishops c. Campion That same outward pompe and glorie may be wāting and yet the Church be visible inough I woulde bee loth to medle with that question of succession You knowe why I woulde not willingly deale in it Goade Well as hath bene proued out of the olde testament that there was a time when the Church militant was hidden so will I proue it out of the newe There was a time when our Sauiour Christ being smitten and all the rest of the Apostles scattered and hidden that visibilitie was not an inseperable qualitie ergo this qualitie is not alwayes inseparable Campion I denie the Antecedent Goade I thinke any here might proue the Antecedent the storie of that time sheweth it plaine The face of the visible Church was then not in Christ his Apostles but in the Iewes amongst the Scribes and Pharisees they had the succession of the Priesthoode and held the chaires Christ was crucified put to death and buried the Apostles scattered and fled into holes and corners so that if visibilitie be such a certaine marke of the true Church then the high Priestes Scribes and Pharises were the true Church and not our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles Campion It was a Church in choate beginning not perfect Goade Therefore it was at sometime hidden c. namely in the beginning of the Church where was then this visibilitie Campion In the virgin Marie Zacharie Iohn Baptiste Peter c. Goade What shewe you me these to proue the Church visible who was Pastor when the Pastor was smitten and killed who occupied the chaires where was the outward face of the Church which you will haue to be so glorious and where was the Pastor and outward exercise of Religion Campion I haue said before that it is not necessarie it should haue alwayes that outward pompe and glorie In the beginning it is not apparant as afterwards Goade Ergo there is a time when it may be hidden Campion Not hidden for they were gathered together It was in deede pusillus grex a litle flocke but proue that it was not visible Goade Because you make light accompt of these times as being but the beginnings of the Church let vs goe on to the proceedings and encrease In those great persecutions vnder the cruell Emperours the Church became hidde and inuisible ergo visibilitie is not an inseparable marke specially in thee time of Dioclesian Christians were so wasted as to the iudgement of mē there were none remaining their bookes were burnt their churches destroyed and them selues put to death with sondrie tormentes Camp You answere your selfe For against whom was this ◅secutiō so hot against whom fought they were they shadowes I am sure there were Christians or els they could not haue stoode forth to haue endured those tormentes but I coulde shewe you Rome in that time Some escaped till Constantines time much about three and twenty yeeres All were not eaten vp for then euery man would be a Christian and well was he that could shewe him self so I could name you the Bishop of Rome that then was Goade But in the ende after that great hauocke was made and crueltie had wasted all that could be founde where was then the visible Church In the ende it was enforced to be hidden It had lost that which you say must needes be of the nature of it the glorie of it was so eclipsed that it shined no where Campion It was most visible then and most glorious and not long after when Constantine came al were Christiās Wherby it appeareth that diuers remained
this day any poore Priest may tell the Pope seeing the Pope to erre in manners and may say vnto him Syr why do you so Fulke But that is against your owne Canon Law For what so euer the Pope doth no man may say Syr why did you so Campion I thinke there can bee shewed no such wordes in the Lawe Fulke I pray you answere me Did Peter dissemble against his conscience or with it Surely he did it not for any worldly respect but because he thought it was his dutie in so doing to beare with the weakenes of the Iewes to thinke that aman may dissemble in such a case is a matter of faith therefore his error was a matter of faith and not of facte onely Camp Why in some case the Catholikes thinke they may communicate with you come to your Churches you againe cōmunicate with vs go to our churches dispute conferre with vs c. Fulke I would wish you to conteine your selfe I knowe where you are It is a matter that doth not belong vnto you You drawe to a thing you ought to be silent in It is a matter of state it were best for you to leaue such things Camp I meane to dispute what do you threaten Fulk No but I giue you good coūsail I am more your friend then you are aware of I thinke you are already founde deepe enough in such matters But to an other argument The generall Councill confesseth that it may erre Ergo the Church may erre Camp In deede this is to the point if you can proue it Fulke Answere directly and you shall see I will proue it so as you shall not be able to auoyde it The whole councill prayeth in the ende of euery generall Council in a set forme of prayer that God will pardon their error ergo they confesse they may erre c. for thus they saye Te in nostris principijs occursorem poposcimus te quoque in hoc fine iudiciorū nostrorū pro excessibus indultorem adesse precamur scilicet vt ignorantiae parcas vt errori indulgeas c. This is the very forme of their prayer Wee prayed that thou wouldest be an ayder in our beginnings thee also in this ende of our iudgements we pray to be present as a pardoner of our excesse that is to say that thou wouldest spare our ignorance and pardon our error Here you see plainly they confesse they may erre when they desyre pardon of their errors Campion Master Doctor they pray against your errors doe they not that God would pardon your errors Fulke They pray that if they themselues haue erred they may be pardoned they speake of their owne errors committed in their owne Councill and the wordes that followe doe plainely expresse the same Campion I would see the printed booke and first I woulde knowe whether they speake of any error of faith then secondly I would know if it can be shewed wherein the Councill erred Fulke Seeing the Councill by this prayer confesseth that it may erre what neede it be shewed wherein it erred Campion Was this prayer said in the Councill of Trent Fulke I know not but it is the prayer that is appointed to be said after euery Councill Campion I answere the Councill of Trent will not acknowledge any error it was some matter of facte Fulke Their wordes are plaine that they may erre not onely in facte but also in faith and therefore they pray to be pardoned in both Et quia conscientia remordente tabescimus ne aut ignorantia nos traxerit in errorem aut praeceps forsitan voluntas impulerit iustitiam declinare ob hoc te poscimus te rogamus vt si quid offensionis in hac Concilij celebritate contraximus cōdonare ac remissibile facere digneris And because our owne conscience accusing vs we do faint lest either ignorance hath drawen vs into error or hasty will perhaps hath driuē vs to decline from iustice we pray thee we beseech thee that if wee haue committed any offence in the celebration of this Council thou wouldest vouchsafe to forgiue it and to make it pardonable Campion That very worde declareth that they meane of some error in facte not of doctrine They pray that if they haue ignorantly erred from iustice they might be pardoned Fulke Those thinges which the Councill doth wisely distinguishe you do vnwisely confound They acknowledge that ignorance might drawe them into error and heady will drawe them from iustice they distinguish error from iniustice and desire to bee pardoned of both As for the booke it shal be brought We could not haue bookes here for we agreed vpon the question but immediatly before dinner and could not go out of the place since for bookes but it shal be shewed M. Lieutenant Here M. Lieutenant told them the time was past but M. D. Fulke desired to haue one agument more Fulke The Councill of Nice 2. decreed an error therefore the Church may erre Camp Now we shall haue the matter of Images Fulke You are Nimis acutus you will leape ouer the stile or euer you come at it I meane not to speake of Images Campion Well then I denie the Antecedent Fulke The Synode decreed that Angels Archangels soules of men c. haue bodies are visible circumscriptible and this is an error ergo they decreed an error c. Camp They decreed no such thing Fulke You shall heare the wordes of the Councill Actione 1. First that saying of one Iohānes Bishop of Thessalonica was read in these wordes De angelis archangelis eorū potestatibus quibus nostras animas adiungo ipsa Catholica ecclesia fic sentit esse quidem intelligibiles sed non omnino corporis expertes inuisibiles Concerning Angels and Archangels and the powers of them to which also I adioyne our soules the Catholike Church her selfe doeth so thinke that they are in deede intelligible but not altogether without bodies and inuisible Which wordes of Iohānes Thessalonicēsis the Archbishop of Cōstantinople Tharasius who was prolocutor of the Councill abridgeth and concludeth vpon them saying Ostendit autem pater quod angelos pingere oporteat quando circumscribi possunt vt homines apparuerunt This father hath shewed that we must paint the Angels also seeing they may be circumscribed haue appeared as men Sacra Synodus dixit Etiam domine The holy synode said Yea my lord Here you see the decree of the whole Synode approuing the saying of Iohannes Thessalonicensis and the conclusion of Tharasius thereupon Campion Shewe me the decree and let me see the Canon many things are spoken in Councils that are not the Canons Fulke I haue read the decree Campion Shew me the Canon reade their Canon Fulke As though euery Council hath set forth Canōs many Councils haue no Canons neither hath this any that I know You shew your selfe a man well read in the Councils that will exact
and to morowe whole the same man but not the same in substance of his body and blood Goade Well seeing you haue none other answere I will leaue this argument and commit it to the iudgement of the learned to iudge of your answere Fulke Thus I will proue that Christ is not present in his naturall body in the Sacrament Whatsoeuer is in the sacrament is voyd of sense or insensible But Christ is not insensible Ergo Christ is not in the Sacrament Camp Your maior and your minor are both vntrue in some sense Fulke This is your olde shift to trouble the hearers vnderstanding with proofe of both partes that you might not be espied in the poynt of controuersie Campion That you say vnsensible it is true if you meane the spirituall grace which is not subiect to sense Fulke I meane by insensible voyde of life or sense Campion Then I deny your maior Fulke I proue it out of Epiphanius lib. Anchorato Campion Reade the place Fulke The wordes be these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Campion What worde builde you vpon Fulke I haue read the wordes where he sayth it is insensible if you vnderstand it Campion You might haue brought the Latine booke Fulke Then you would haue cauiled that it was not rightly translated but you were best confesse your ignorance Campion I pray you helpe me Fulke If you vnderstand it your selfe I neede not Campion I vnderstand Latine better then Greeke Yet I trust I haue Greeke ynough to answere you withall Reade it in Latine Fulke Nay I will reade it in English that other men may vnderstand it as well as you For we see what our father tooke in his handes as it is contained in the Gospel that he arose at supper and tooke these things And after he had giuen thankes he said This of me is that And we see that it is not equall nor like neither to the incarnate image nor to the inuisible deitie nor to the lineamēts of his members For this thing is of long shape or rowle fashion and voyd of sense as concerning power And yet hee woulde say through grace This of mine is that and no man doth discredit the saying Camp You lose time we should not credit our eyes but faith What haue you gotten by this place Epiphanius saith none must discredit the presence of Christ in the Sacrament because it is a long white thing Fulke You vnderstand not the place Campion The meaning is wee must not credite sense but faith you haue gained nothing by this place Fulke Yes more then you would willingly afford First that the sacramētal bread in that time was not such a round thin cake as you vse in your Masse but a rowle of bread Secondly that the sacramēt was not equal with Christ and thirdly that it was an insensible thing void of life hauing not so much as that power of sense Campion He sayeth that we should not credit our sight but faith we must beleeue Christ to be present Fulke As Christ hath sayd and meaneth Campion That which I see is voyde of sense it is against your selfe it teacheth vs to beleeue faith Fulke You know not the argumēt of the booke nor of the place Campion Yes as well as you Fulke Then shewe it afore this company you that will challenge the whole Church of England and make profession of vniuersall knowledge Camp I wil answere any challenge I haue made Fulke Yea euen as you doe this Shewe vs the argument which the Doctor handleth in this place if you can Campion I haue sayd you are not able to reply Fulke Yes if you wil shew the argument I will replie Campion You do not Fulke I do not therefore I cannot I wil first shew the argumēt of the place he speaketh of images namely he sheweth how man is made after Gods image yet is not equall with God although Christ being the image of the Father is equal with him This he sheweth by example of the sacramēt which is the image of Christ in such sort as man is the image of God For it is not equal with Christ nor like vnto him either concerning his humanitie or deitie but a mere insensible thing as that which hath no power of life whereas Christ is all sensible all of power all incomprehensible concerning his Godhead Campion Reply against mine answere if you can The exterior forme or colour which we see is that which he sayth to be insensible Fulke He speaketh not of colour hee speaketh of that which Christ calleth his body Is the exterior forme called the bodie of Christ Is the colour of bread the image of Christ Epiphanius sayeth that of which Christ sayde This is my body is voyde of sense Therefore he sayth the whole Sacrament or whatsoeuer is contained in it is insensible Campion That is Christ is not seene but vnder the exterior forme or colour For no substāce cā be seene Are not you Doctor Fulke and yet I see nothing but your colour and exterior forme I wil abide by this that the substāce of any thing can not be seene Fulke I will not vouchesafe to replie vpon this answere too childish for a Sophister Camp You are very imperious You come I trowe to pose me as a Grammar scholer and to take me vp with checke at your pleasure I know no cause why I shoulde take it at your handes I am the Queenes prisoner and not yours Fulke I would you were the Queenes true subiect Goade Whatsoeuer is naturally present in the Sacrament is beneath vpon earth But Christ touching his body is not beneath vpon earth Ergo Christ touching his body is not naturally present in the Sacrament Campion I deny your minor Goade Christ touching his bodily presence is in heauen and onely in heauen therefore not vpon earth Campion I deny your Antecedent it is partly true and partly false ordinarily he is in heauen but miraculously his body also is in earth Goade I will ease you of your distinction Christ is no way present on earth touching his body Therefore neither ordinarily nor yet miraculously Answere to the argument briefly Campion As briefe as you wil. He is some way present vpon earth touching his body Proue your antecedent Goade I proue it thus If Christ touching his bodily presence be any way present vpō earth then he is to be sought vpon earth But he is not to be sought vpon earth Ergo no way present vpon earth Campion I deny your Minor Hee is some way to be sought vpon earth in the Sacrament but not by his ordinary presence Goade Mine argument is against all distinction Campion Will you not giue me leaue to distinguish Goade I say he is no way bodily present on earth which vtterly taketh away your distinction And I proue it by the Apostles reason Colos. 3. 1. Si consurrexistis cum Christo. c. If ye be risen together with Christ seeke those things that are
time of the institution Camp Nay we ground sufficiently vpon that place though Christes body be now glorified yet we do not builde vpon glorification but vpon the wordes This is my body which Christ hath spoken and therefore it is his body Goade But you are not yet resolued what kinde of body It is an other now from that it was then Camp Yet the same bodie though differing in condition Christ cannot be wounded now as afore yet the same flesh Goade I do not denie the same body in substance to bee nowe that was then but you see that the presence of a glorified bodie which you affirmed is not grounded vpon Hoc est corpus meum But I leaue this argument Goade Let vs conclude with prayer Almightie Lord and merciful father we yeelde thee humble thankes for thy manifolde benefites bestowed vpon vs especially yâ— thou hast vouchsafed vs the knowledge and loue of thy heauenly trueth contained in thy holy worde which thou hast denied vnto many others leauing theÌ„ in their owne peruerse blindnes we beseeche thee to encrease daily in vs more and more the true knowledge of thee of thy sonne Iesus Christ whom thou hast sent vouchsafe to make thy truthe so much the more deare and precious vnto vs for that it hath enemies that daily seeke to obscure and impugne the same and as for those that goe aâ—…traie so many of them as pertaine vnto thy kingdome we beseeche thee in thy good time to call to lighten their mindes and to mollifie their heartes that we may together with one heart and one mouth glorifie thee thorowe our Lord Iesus Christ. Amen ⧠The disputation in the afternoone the same daye The second question or assertion of Campion The question After the wordes of Consecration the bread and wine are transubstanciated into the body and blood of Christ. Fulke LEt vs beginne with prayer O almightie God and most merciful father we humbly submit our selues before thy maiestie and doe vnfainedly acknowledge that our heartes are full of ignorance and blindnes so that wee cannot vnderstande thy wonderfull trueth by our selues nor see it when it is reueiled by thee except it please thy maiestie by thy holy spirite to lighten our darkenes giue sight to our blindnes Wherefore we humbly beseech thee to assiste vs by thy grace and to giue vs sight to see thy trueth and strength to defende the same against all thine enemies that the weake may be confirmed the obstinate confounded and thy name glorified through Iesus Christ our Lorde Because you tooke a time to finde those wordes which you reported to be in my booke and I see the booke in your hand I pray you reade them if you haue founde them Camp The booke is mistaken it is not that booke I meant Fulke It is the booke that you named Camp I am sure you do not disclame the opinion Fulke As I tolde you in the forenoone I do disclame it in such sorte as it was vttered by you which you are not able to proue to be affirmed by me Campion You make inuocation of Saintes a matter of great waight Fulke The Church did erre in that point but not as you Papistes do erre in it There is great difference betweene their errour and yours But let vs come to the appointed question which is against Transubstantiation I proue there remaineth the substance of bread and wine in the sacrament after consecration Our Sauiour dranke the same that his Apostles did But our Sauiour dranke wine Ergo his Apostles dranke wine Camp I deny that our Sauiour dranke of the coÌ„secrated wine Fulke The words of the Euangelist are plaine that our Sauiour Christ spake I wil drinke no more from henceforth of the fruite of the vine These wordes are plaine of wine for the blood of Christ is not the fruite of the vine Camp This signifieth that our Sauiour did eate indefinitly whether hee did eate of the same bread or drinke of the same cup of wine which he gaue I doubt of it he did eate drinke with theÌ„ Fulk He protested that he would not drinke any more of that which he gaue But that which he gaue vnto them was wine Therefore he dranke of the same wine Camp This text conuinceth it not Fulke Yes plainely Camp He speaketh of that wine which was drunke at supper for all was wine if there had bene 20. gallons before consecratioÌ„ Fulke He speaketh of the wine in his hande for whereto els hath the pronowne this relatioÌ„ After he had taken the cup in his hand immediatly he faith I will not drinke any more of this fruit of the vine Camp He had supped with them hee had eaten the Pascall lambe with them he would not take any more repast with them in this life till his resurrection as afore therfore it is to be referred to the action that went before Fulke It is plaine that he speaketh of the same wine which he had in his hande which he gaue vnto them And Chrysostomes wordes declare the same in Math. Homil. 89. Sedcuius rei gratia non aquam sed vinuÌ„ post resurrectionem bibit perniciosam quandaÌ„ haeresin radicitus euellere voluit eorum qui aqua in mysterijs vtuntur ita vt ostenderet quia quando hoc mysterium traderet vinum tradidit iam post resurrectionem in nuda mysterij mensa vino vsus est Ex germine auteÌ„ ait vitis quae certè noÌ„ aquam sed vinuÌ„ producit But for what cause did he not drinke water but wine after his resurrection His purpose was to pull vp by the rootes a certaine pernicious heresie of them which vse water in the mysteries so that he shewed that both when he deliuered this mysterie he deliuered wine and nowe also after his resurrection in the onely table of the mysterie hee vsed wine Of the fruite of the vine saith hee which verely bringeth foorth wine and not water Campion All this makes for me Fulke You shall heare howe it maketh for you Here you see that he dranke of that which he deliuered to his disciples And he dranke wine Therefore he deliuered wine to his disciples Campion He deliuered that which had the shew of wine doth he say that he gaue wine Fulke He saith Vinum tradidit He deliuered wine or he gaue wine Campion Goe to he deliuered consecrated wine He did consecrate wine and did giue it vnto them Fulke He gaue consecrated wine Ergo he gaue wine Campion I denie your argument for consecrated wine is not wine Fulke Then he gaue wine that was not wine For Chrysostome saith Vinum tradidit He gaue wine Camp He gaue that that was wine Fulke Chrysostome sayth That which hee deliuered was wine when he deliuered it or els howe did hee take away the heresie of those that brought in water if he had not giuen wine Campion The meaning of Chrysostome is to bring in wine against
that but let it be tryed by the authority of the Scriptures not the proper witnesses of any but common to both let matter with matter cause with cause and reason with reason trye it c. And Hierome writing to Laeta de institutione filiae fol. 58. willeth not to reade some without doubting and other some warely but he sayth Caueat omnia Apocrypha Let her beware of all the Apocrypha which he nameth in Prologo Galeato Et si quando ea non ad dogmatum veritatem sed ad signorum reuerentiam legere voluerit sciat non eorum esse quorum titulis praenotantur multaquè ijs admixta vitiosa grandis esse prudentiae aurum in luto quaerere And if at any time she will reade them not for the trueth of opinions but for the reuerence of signes let her knowe that they are not theirs whose titles they beare but that many vitious thinges are mixt with them and that it is a point of great wisdome to seeke out golde in dirt Loe here you see that he biddes her to beware in the reading of them Camp The Scripture is principally to be admitted but I would we might haue an argument Walker Then thus I reason That which he biddeth to beware of is not to be holden authenticall But he biddeth to beware of the Apocrypha Ergo the Apocrypha is not to be holden authenticall Camp Apocrypha are taken two wayes First for those bookes which are doubted of and then for such bookes that are not allowed Such were the prophecie of Enoch Iacobs testament and such like which he calleth Somniolenta deliramenta vitiosa c. of those Hierome speaketh in this place and not of those others For what point is there in Ecclesiasticus the booke of Wisdome that is to be found fault with that is vitiosū not good Walker They are called Apocrypha that are not in the Canon receiued and allowed to haue proceeded vndoubtedly from the holy Ghost these Apocrypha are forbidden to be read And Hierome in praefat in lib. Reg. saith Hic prologus scripturarum c. Si quid extra hos est inter Apocrypha est ponendum c. They are not in the Canon therefore Apocrypha are onely to be read Camp Woulde Hierome forbid the gentlewoman to reade Ecclesiasticus where there are giuen so many morall precepts Non sunt in Canone Hebraeorum sed in Canone Christianorum They are not in the Canon of the Hebrewes but they are in the Canon of the Christians Walker They may be read for morall Lessons but not for matters of religion which must be proued by Canonicall scripture What say you to the second booke of Macchabees Thinke you that to be holden for Canonicall scripture Camp I thinke so What should let Walker What say you to that sentence 2. Macch. 12. thrust into the text Salubris est oratio pro defunctis and to that which followeth Et si quidem bene vt historiae competit hoc est vt ipse velim sin autem minus digne concedendum est mihi And if I haue done well and as is meete for a storie this also my selfe did wish c. Camp It is marueile that you should say that it is thrust in Walker It is noted so by other and the duetie of an historiographer is to reporte things done truely and plainely without arguing like a Logitian but he sayeth Ergo salubris est oratio pro defunctis Therefore prayer for the dead is healthfull which appeareth first to haue bene set in the margent But howe auoyde you the last Can such asking of pardon be of the holy Ghost wherein hath hee fayled or of whome shall hee be pardoned Camp The interpreter asketh pardon of his speach for his style and not for the doctrine The holy Ghost asketh no more pardon then Paul did when he saide Rudis sum sermone I am rude in speach when he spake in a base and lowe stile Charke Campion howsoeuer you labour to auoyde the direct course of disputation and haue obteined some change of the question I must call you home by and by Notwithstanding I minde a while to followe this your course and to finde you out in your owne trace where I maruaile howe you dare thus speake in this assemblie For what a blot is it to the holy Ghost to affirme he should aske pardon and to the Apostle Saint Paul to say his stile to the Corinthians is a base and lowe stile But to vse no further preface I will thus proue that the 2. booke of the Macchabees was not indited by the holy Ghost Whatsoeuer needeth pardon either for matter or maner was not indited by the holy Ghost But the story of the 2. booke of Macchabees needeth pardon either for matter or maner Therefore it was not indited by the holy Ghost Camp This man would be angrie with me if he knew why Charke If I woulde knowe I not why to be angrie with you a notable and vowed enemie of the trueth of God and a seditious man against the state But I come not to deale with your person but against your errors Answere the argument Camp I say the writer of the Macchabees asketh pardon of his speach neyther doeth Paul blotte the holy Ghost when he saide that he was rudis sermone that he spake not so eloquently nor so finely as sometimes he might Charke You answere not directly and beside you affirme an error For S. Paul craueth no pardon for his stile but setteth his plainesse against the set and curious speach of the false Apostles who did come in gay apparance and shewe of wordes as if they had had al the power of trueth that might be and yet in this plaine style the Apostle was of al others most mightie most eloquent As for the 2. booke of Macchabees which you make Canonicall seripture here I will make this challēge if you dare answere it to proue many lyes in it through 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and that therefore it was written by a prophane spirite for the matter But to come to the Syllogisme and to disproue your distinction I reason thus The writers of holy Scriptures aske not any pardon at all either for the matter or for the manner Therefore they aske no pardon for their style Camp I deny your Antecedent Paul sayeth Rudis sum sermone Charke If Saint Paul saith Rudis sum sermone doeth he I pray you in those wordes craue pardon for his stile howe hang your wordes together I will proue my Antecedent by the place of Peter None that haue written as they were directed by the spirit of God craue pardon either for matter or for manner But all the holy men of God that wrote the Scriptures haue written as they were directed by the spirit of God Therefore none of the holy men of God that haue written the scriptures craue pardon either for matter or manner Camp This acknowledging
of the weakenesse of his stile is in the Apostle an humilitie comming from the holy Ghost Charke You answere not to the Argument therefore to auoyde the cauil consider the Syllogisme againe in this sort Whatsoeuer is the worde of God is full sound and perfect it doeth neither aske nor neede pardon in any respect But the second booke of Marchabees doth both neede aske pardon in some respect Therefore it is not the worde of God Norton If you will stay a while and speake leasurely you shall haue the Argument written and while it is writing if you will haue any thing added or changed it shall be done It will be more profitable for the hearers and greater ease for your selues Camp With a good will I answere In it selfe and for it selfe it neither needeth nor asketh pardon but for circumstance In respect of dainty eares it may aske pardon Charke Why Campion shall the holy Ghost begge pardon in respect of daintie eares Camp Syr Put this in also that I say it was in respect of the stile for the forme and the maner of it Norton Well I haue put it in so Charke Let him put in all his shiftes helpes clogging his answeres as much as he will we will cast the clogges vpon his owne heeles and thus I reason agaynst all your cauils Whatsoeuer is in the worde of God is all of the holy Ghost both for matter for stile and for circumstance and the holy Ghost asketh no pardon for any of these Therfore the 2. booke of the Machabees asking pardon is not of the holy Ghost nor canonical scripture Here Campion â—…eeing hastie before master Norton had written it through out master Norton willed him to stay a little Campion replied that it was losse of time To which Master Norton answered againe that it was a gaining of the time He desired that the word all might bee inferred in the Antecedent Charke I sayd all Norton So it is and rightly set downe Camp Then I answere thus This circumstance of asking pardon is of the holy Ghost for it is a speach of humilitie proceeding from the holy Ghost as is Saint Paules speach Rudis sum sermone I am rude in speach Et non in persuasibilibus verbis humanae sapientiae Not in the perswasible wordes of mans wisedome Charke Rudis sum sermone commeth oft and rudely in and yet the alledging of it hath bene disproued long ago Neuerthelesse seeing it pleaseth you so wel it shal be a weapoÌ„ of your owne giuing to vse against your selfe For the Apostle of purpose auoyding the wisdome of mans eloquence doth iustifie that which his aduersaries called rudenesse of speach as lawfull and good Neither doth he as you imagin confesse any want or craue pardon Therefore your example is false deceitfull and vnlearned It is a trim thing for you to abuse the multitude vnder opinion of great learning and to match those that are no scriptures with scriptures sometime affirming one thing and another time another sometime that the Apostles speach is rude and the stile base and needeth pardon in respect of daintie eares and now last that it needeth no pardon but is done for humilitie whereas the holy Ghost neuer asketh pardon of man for any thing he doth for that were to bring God vnder man and make the spirit of God subiect to the allowance or disallowance of sinfull flesh Camp I answere that neither this of the Macchabees nor Pauls speach hath need of pardon in it selfe Charke It is too too much absurd to accuse the holy ghost of waste and needles speach For if there needed no pardon it was not according to the holy Ghost to craue it Camp I haue said neither this nor the Apostles speach needed any pardon in it selfe and yet it was not waste and needlesse because it proceeded of humilitie Charke Will you charge the holy ghost with dissimulation speaketh he one thing and meaneth another Camp I say it was not waste because it proceeded of humilitie to craue pardon Charke Wel I proue my assertion against this your imagined humilitie of the holy Ghost to sinfull flesh Whatsoeuer is without cause is waste and needlesse But your self confesse it to be without cause for the holy ghost to craue pardon Therefore by your owne confession it is waste and needlesse Camp I denie the Minor For there is cause For in trueth the stile is simple Charke How often haue you granted the Minor saying he needed not to aske pardon now as forgetting your selfe you say there is cause of asking pardoÌ„ For say you in truth the stile is simple Your speaches are contradictory Set it downe that yâ— aduersarie is not at one with him selfe Besides he was driuen before to grant the stile is not base or simple Camp I haue set downe no contrarietie but in respect Char. In respect is a simple shift Are not these contradictorie propositions He needeth not pardon but asketh it in humilitie and He needeth pardon for in trueth the stile is simple Camp I pray you read the place of the Maccabees Charke Thus you retire and aske moreouer that which needeth not For the place is well knowen and was read before But I will read it againe Et si quidem bene vt historiae competit hoc ipse velim si autem minus dignè concedendum est mihi This I would haue all the companie marke and vnderstand whom you labor with indirect speaches to abuse draw from the truth that whether the authour of this booke excuse himself craue pardon in these wordes for his stile or for his storie neither can be of the holy ghost because as hath bene proued at large the holy ghost faileth nothing at all in any point of speach of matter or of circumstance Thus your distinctions and cause fall together Camp I haue answered you in what respect he craueth pardon and if that cannot satisfie you leaue it to God and this companie to iudge of Charke Sure your satisfaction is verie weake farre from satisfying God that hateth such fond distinctioÌ„s to darken his word or those of the companie that seeke to be edified But you giue me new occasion to prosecute this matter What thinke you therefore of the storie of Iudith touching the dressing and decking of her selfe with apparell and ornaments fittest to deceiue Holofernes eies and what say you to her lies and praier that he might be taken with the snare of his eies looking vpon her the speaches vntrue and the action vnchaste in outward apparance were they thinke you of the holy Ghost Camp I maruell not that you so speake of me when you so speake of a blessed woman to bring so holy an action into doubt Surely you greatly offend me in so doing Charke I speake of the words and storie as it is plainly written she prayeth saying Capiatur laqueo oculorum suorum in me Percuties eum ex
labijs charitatis meae And againe Verte sermonem meum in fraudem Do you thinke this speach proceeded of the holy Ghost Nay rather howsoeuer it displease you to heare of the matter it proceeded froÌ„ a prophane spirit as I haue said to charge the holy ghost with fraud to pray for such an effect that Holofernes might be taken with her loue snared with her kisses Camp There be no such wordes in the booke Charke Here you are manifestly ouertaken for they are worde for worde in the 9. Chapter and after your translations the vulgar and Vatablus Camp Is that to be esteemed fraude which the holy Ghost deuiseth Is it fraud to deceiue the deuill blame you her who did that she did to a good end and for the deliuery of the Church Char. What dealing is this Euen now he denied the words now finding them strong against his cause he would auoid them with a distinction of good intents to iustifie bad parts Thus you Papists hold against the word of God that we may do euill that good may come of it No Campion Gods spirit is alwayes like it selfe It is not agreeing with the maiestie of the spirit of God for any woman to pray that a stranger should be taken with the snare of his eyes looking vpoÌ„ her or that she may deceiue by lies This story therfore this practise proceded not froÌ„ the holy ghost Camp It is a shame for you to bring that example She desireth God that it will please him to turne the wickednes of Holofernes to the deliuerie of his people She prayeth not as you say that he should sinne Charke She doth pray for it in plaine words and set out her selfe in sumptuous apparell and ornaments to that purpose It is a shame for you Campion to mainteine any such absurditie and againe to deny and misconster the manifest wordes of that you would haue Canonicall scripture We stand before the face of God for the maintenance of his truth and giue such honour therunto that we acknowledge with our harts coÌ„fesse with our mouths that it is perfect full and sufficient and that there is no prophanation in it but you would haue that to be matched with holy scripture which is far vnworthy that honor What say you to the argument the place Let him be taken with the snare of his eies in me turne my speach into deceit or fraud This is a praier for successe in a matter of sinne most vnseemly for the holy ghost Camp I receiue this booke first because the Nicene couÌ„cill hath allowed it then I say further that this was her meaning that whereas God had giueÌ„ Holofernes ouer to fleshly lust that he might be taken with the loue of his eies towards her to be besotted with her yâ— she might the better performe her determinate purpose she prayeth that God will turne his sinne to the deliuery of his distressed people And what doth she commit worthy of blame in this Charke This is not only worthy of blame but also to be condemned as sinfull and sauouring of a prophane spirite that shee prayeth God to blesse her lyes and falshood her tentations and allurements to lust For the Lord hath appointed good wayes for good purposes and for the performance of that his worke he needed not her deceit For as Iob saith God needeth not any mans lie or any mans fraude Which is also true of the fraude and dangerous allurements mentioned in that chapter Camp What Chapter what Chapter Charke The ninth Chapter Reade and acknowledge the words you haue denied Here Campion read in his owne booke saying he perceiued we builded vpon our owne tâ—…slation Camp Well this is mine answere It was not truely and formally fraude but materially in the formall act fraude as for example when the people of the Iewes were commanded to steale from the Egyptians it was in the act theft but not formally theft So Abrahanis intent to kill his childe was to do murther in the act but formally it was no murther Charke You woulde nowe in steade of a short and schoolelike answere drawe me to a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the place in hande to the examination of newe matters Therefore to take you where you will needes be I say the Hebrewe worde hath not that signification that it shoulde import theft but a spoyle which was iust and commanded of God as after a victorie or for a rewarde of their labours seruice in Egypt therefore no theft But this fraude is another thing So the first example is vnlike proueth nothing no more do the rest For Abrahams act was no murther nor intent of murther but a duetiful obedience and seruice to God who had expresly commanded it Lastly you can not thinke that the Magistrate in taking the life of a transgressor or taking away yâ— head of a traytor is a murtherer No this duetie of iustice is layd vpon him by his office from God and can not but ignorantly be called murther And such was the warrant for Abraham in his office Camp I meane killing as it respecteth the taking away of life and no otherwise Charke How do you confound the speciall with the general All murther is the taking away of life but all taking away of life is not murther To kill and to take away life from the wicked by the sworde of iustice is iust and in no respect to carry the name of murther which is euermore euill Walker Concilium Laodicenum The Councill of Laodicea hath left out Toby Iudith the booke of Wisdome Ecclus Baruch Maccabees Esra the third and fourth and in the newe Testament Luke the Apocalyps these are the wordes Quae autem oporteat legi in authoritatem recipi haec sunt Genesis Exodus c. But those which ought to be read receiued for authenticall are these Genesis Exodus c. Where the forenamed bookes are omitted Camp The Laodicene Councill was particular and not generall And againe it reckeneth vp those bookes that were vndouted and not douted of in that part of the world But what maketh this to proue that they were douted of of that Catholike Church They were douted of in that Church or in that part of the Church Ergo they were douted of of the whole Church How holdeth this Therefore it is plaine that these bookes were not doubted of in that whole Church For the same Nicene Council accepteth Iudeth as Hierome testifieth in the preface to Iudeth Further because the Church of Rome approueth them it followeth not that we should dout of them Walker Then you confesse that the Council set not downe al that we should receiue And where you make the Councill particular it was prouinciall and further was confirmed by the sixth generall Councill holden at Trullo Constantine being president as Bartholomaeus Caranza writeth fol. 71. and therfore we may with them leaue out of the Canon Tobie Iudeth the