for he saith as Maister Iuell alledgeth not onely the priest sacrificeth but also the whole company of the faithful But what maketh this for Maister Harding The priest and the people both doe sacrifice therefore is there no difference in the ministerye S. Peter saith you are a kingly Priesthood therfore is ther no difference in the function betwene the minister and the laye man True it is that the minister and the people do offer vp a lyke one sacrifice vnto God but that maketh nothing to Maister Hardings saying Thus we se while he hobbeth and roueth and shooteth at euery marke a lie he was an hypocrite when he was at the best and nowe is led forwarde still to be an open enimie Reade the .222 vntruth An other péece of thys marke is this that men and women make the sacrifice of the aulter and be Priests after the order of Melchisedech Of this reade the .158 vntruth The last péece of thys marke is yet woorst of all nothing else but malice slaunder and wickednesse here agaynst M. Iuell bicause he wryteth not one such woord and commonlye agaynst the truth of God which the wicked doe alwaye peruert And this is that marke that God is the author of euill and driueth men to sin What should I here aunswere but euen saye with the Prophet The scornful haue said We haue made falshood our refuge and vnder vanitie we are hid If euerye such euyll saying myght clayme an aunswere M. Hardings one Reioynder would require many volumes But for a sufficient contentation of the Reader I say in all M. Iuels booke there is no one such woord I adde further nor in all the bookes that euer were wrytten by any godly man of M. Iuels profession Let M. Harding or all hys companions in searching ouer theyr wrytings bryng but one letter whereby we may gesse that euer such a saying was ment and for my part let hys writings be approued If he can not doe this consider of hys religion He would not speake wyckedlye for Gods defence nor talke deceitfully for his cause If anye man require what our opinon is let hym reade any learned man intreating of the predestination of God or of mans frée wyll or for a better warrant let him reade the scriptures it selfe We say al that God made was very good He created man in honour and gaue hym frée wyll and man of himselfe gaue place to inordinate affections where hee might haue obeyed Gods woord euen as it is written He hath set water and fire before thée stretch out thy hand vnto which thou wilt And agayne God created man without corruptiō And concerning sinne we say through the enuy of the Deuill came death into the world Neither néede we make exception agaynst this authoritie bicause it is not in the canō For the Apostle doth authorize it where he writeth He that committeth sinne is of the Deuil For the Deuill sinneth euen from the beginning And in an other place Diabolus est mendax pater eius the Deuill is a lyer and the father thereof not as your friende Mayster Dorman doth interprete it and so was hys father before hym for that were in déede to make God the authour of euill which is the marke you talke of Now euen as the Deuill is authour of euil so we by his suggestiō haue the next cause in our selues which is an vncleane hart lyke as our Sauiour saith Out of the hart procéede euil cogitations c. Of God we say and we say againe and we preache it and we wryte and beleue it and in it we reioyce that God is neyther the author of euyll neyther yet would it should be committed The shepe goe astray without the shepherdes wyll The groate is lost and the poore woman would not so Christ woulde gather togither Ierusalem as the Hen doth hir Chickens but they would not But this we say that the wayes of God are not like the wayes of men that he should not know what thynges were to come He could not be deceiued in his own creature He did foresée the fall of Adam and by his omnipotency could haue made him stand For who can resist hys will He coulde haue made him so pure that he should not haue sinned euen as he hath now made his Aungels and wyll make the whole number of his elect that no man anye more shall take awaye theyr ioye from them And as we are sure this is Gods omnipotēcy so why he did it not we cā not assigne any cause but bicause he would not For we knowe he hath done al things that he woulde Yet a cause ther was and that a most iust and good cause For their is no iniquity with him And this cause he did knowe in his eternall secret counsell before all worldes for as much as all thinges are present with him To enter further into Gods councell and aske why he appointed such a course in which the reprobate both Angels and men shoulde fall away this were presumptuous folly Shall the pot say vnto the potter why hast thou made me so The Godly will staye here and in the feare and loue of God wil professe and beleue both that God ruleth all thinges with his mighty worde and yet wylleth he no man to sinne We haue so much corruption in our selues that we néede no further prouoking vnto wickednesse Now to Maister Hardings purpose thus much we saye that God permitteth synne and with longe patience doth suffer the vessels of wrath prepared to destruction but yet this permission we say doth appertayne vnto the will of God For he doth not suffer it eyther inforced or against his will neither yet doth he so suffer it that he doth nothing him selfe For he ruleth and gouerneth euen their iniquity He suffereth it not to rage at will but guideth it either to the punishment of the wicked as he oft punished the Israelites with the wickednes of straunge Princes or to the triall of his elect as it is well acknowledged of the prophet Dauid saying of Shimei he curseth euen bicause the Lord hath bid him curse Dauid yet God made not the malice of Shimeis mynde Likewyse where it is sayde of the destruction of Ierusalem that God brought vpon them the king of the Chaldeans God did not ingraffe in Nabuchadoneyzar his great cruelty but being bred in his own mind he brought it vpon whom it pleased him Therfore Christ saith all the heares of our head are numbred and with out Gods appointment ther shal not one of them perish This therefore is our doctrine God is no cause of wickednesse but men cannot apply their owne wickednesse but where it pleaseth God neither do they exercise their wickednes but when and how far his grace doth leaue them For plainer declaration of this we may compare the grace of God and the sunne If the sunne be ouer
the Moonke was the messenger Now to quit these negatiues with which M. Harding is so well pleased with like negatiues we may well and truly ouerthrow all popish religion taking example of our sauiour Christes doing For he neuer alowed of their ceremonies He neuer celebrated his last supper alone He neuer ministred in one kinde He neuer made any vniuersall bishop He neuer named Transubstantiacion Masse Mattens Euensong Dirige nor Trentals He neuer went a procession with cope crosse or candlesticke He neuer â—ensed Image nor sang Latin seruice He neuer went to shrift nor sat in confession He neuer preached of Purgatorie nor pardons He neuer honored Saintes nor praied for the dead He neuer fasted Friday Uigil Lent nor Aduent He neuer hallowed Churche nor chalice ashes nor palmes candels nor bels He neuer made holy water nor holy bread He neuer wore Rochet nor Tippet He neuer had Crosse nor Myter Corporas nor Portas shepebooke nor Massebooke Frankincense nor Peterpence wax nor flax nor any such trumperie And therefore by these negatiues we may well conclude that M. Hardings religion is not of Christes institution Harding ¶ Vpon this negatiue it liketh you well to dally and bicause say you it offendeth vs you wyll turne it on our side c. And when you haue made all your turnings you doe as muche for vs as if you gaue a Snake for an Adder c. What proofes we haue and how iustlye we confute your Obiections and Replies let our treatises be examined Dering Maister Iuels negatiue is this that they can not prooue by Scripture Doctour Councell or anye example anye one of these articles which are called into controuersie This negatiue misliketh them Therfore sayth M. Iuell we will take the affirmatiue and prooue their religion not to come from Christes Apostles This I trow is not to dallie but plainlye and vnfainedly to séeke 〈◊〉 the truth Yet saith Maister Harding this is a Snake in stede of an Adder in deede it is true the calling of these articles into question hath stoonge that whorish religion euen vnto death And that Aesculapius Adder that hath lurked so long in Rome for all his quicke sight is by this meanes discouered God be praysed for it for euer and euer Wher Maister Harding saith further let this matter be tried by treatisies I feare not such iudges for sure of all mens doinges their owne lyinges dreamings visions oracles coniurings and such deuises haue giuen their religion the greatest ouerthrowe Hardyng ¶ You report my wordes vntruly as your common maner is making men beleue although I sayd all these articles were of light importaunce c. The lightest of them is of weight to drawe you downe to the rufull state of damned soules if for maintenaunce of your priuate opinion you feare not to breake the vnitie of the church Yet as though I had said what you faslie report me to say you procede and scoffingly demauÌ„d whether ye may thinke that our religion encreaseth and vadeth waxeth and waneth as doth the moone Dering These be Maister Hardings woordes in his Preface to his aunswere Why treate you not of matters of more importance then these be of which yet lye in question betwene the church of Rome and the Protestantes As the presence of Christes bodye and bloude in the Sacrament of Iustification of the value of good woorkes of the Sacrifice of the Masse c. Thys obscure manner of speaking maye séeme to make light of these waightye mattters and therefore who so euer should say so of them deserued litle blame But héere Maister Hardings choler is to much inflamed bicause Maiste Iuell noting their inconstancie asketh whether their Religion encreaseth and vadeth waxeth and waneth as doeth the moone And hath he not thinke you good occasion to aske this question Doeth not Maister Harding saye in many of these articles that they be no keyes of their Religion Yet héere he saith if a man denie them when they be receiued they are of value inoughe to dampne him Where is his wit become What is so contrary to it selfe as this What is waxing and waning What is increasing and vading if this be none And what Christian eares can abide this saying that suche trifels as they be of them selues and such filthy whooredomes as they be now made of should condempne vs if we shoulde speake against them He paide not the price of soules that so easily sendeth them away from ther maister vnto Satan The casting awaie such scourings of the Romish vncleannes shall neuer doo it nay it is a witnesse vnto our consciences that we be the children of the highest Hardyng ¶ Concerning the rest of your aunswere wherin you treat certaine coÌ„mon places vtter much spite against the Pope c. against transubstanciatioÌ„ against inuocation of saints against aultars c. Prayer for the dead you condemne and shew no cause why c. I thinke good to let passe and contemne it Dering Now sure well done maister Harding where you can not reade skip ouer but take good héede least in your lâ—aping you hurt your selfe and do your cause no good If men shal vnderstand that you wil not alow the authority of Pope Nicolaus Pope Leo Pope Boniface Pope Sergius and the common Law all which Maister Iuell alledgeth you shall make the Pope that now is beshrew you and so peraduenture you shal get a curse and you shall make all good Christian people mistrust you Of transubstantiation aultars we will say more héereafter Prayer to saintes is now nighe forgotten You aske in the margine why we doe not aunswere the booke of Purgatory In déede now you come to the point This article is very auncient about .1900 yeares a gone Plato spake of it in his booke de animo where this your cleansing place hath his first ground foundation And therfore for our good and sufficient discharge in this matter I aunswere out of the same booke of Plato We meddle not with your booke of purgatory bicause we feare not our shadowes You know that y e yoÌ„g nouice in Philosophy feared not y e three hedded Cerberus the roring of Cocytus the rolling stone of Sisyphus and how shoulde we feare your painted paper walles of Purgatory Christ is our Sauiour God engraffe in vs a desire to be with him and for my part sith purgatory hath no graunt in Gods woord I recken it scarce woorthy aunswer Yet bicause you ar importune somwhat shall be sayd hereafter Hardyng ¶ You haue piked out or set some a worke to pike out for you all the tearmes and woordes vsed in my booke which a good man may iustly bestow in rebuke of vice vpon euill men c. Dering Héere Maister Harding is fallen into a very shamelesse veine of writing and thinketh good at large to excuse his own modesty The woordes in which he séeketh after it are these Thersites Goliath Heathens Publicanes sacramentaries Lucians scoffers rashe presumtuous ignorant péeuishe and
it had neuer bene séene These hastie vntruthes haue yet little spéedy successe Let vs se the residue The. B. of Saris. That they were written in Greeke and not in Latine that they could be layde vp in secrecie for the space of a thousande fiue hundred yeare and more and no man misse them Harding The .20 vntruth They were knowne to the fathers Dering It was very wrangling to begin that vntruth which common sense doth teach vs had no falshoode in it to persue it that is great ouersight but to make two of it that is extréeme follie They were kept in secrecie sayth Maister Iuell these 1500 yeares and this is true they were not openly knowne as Maister Harding himselfe doth confesse therefore they were secrete and how could they haue béene secrete except some had hid them but why doth he not tell Maister Iuels tale hole They were not knowne saith he in these countries Maister Iuell himselfe as is aforesaide doth alleage Leo and Gelasius both Bishops of Rome and Bessarion a cardinall who all condemne the booke Reade the Replie good reader and thou shalt find it true and how could they haue done it if they had neuer séene the booke This wrangling this lying thys wicked Reioinder were it not that some ignorant man might beleue it it should not haue one worde aunswered But God deliuer vs from such contagious poison The B. of Saris. Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius sayth certaine other bookes are abroade in the name of Clement as the disputation of Peter and Appion which bookes were neuer in vse among the fathers neyther containe they pure and apostolicall doctrine Harding The .21 vntruth Saint Ierom is falsified Dering It is reported of Brutus that he was woont to say he had spent his time euill that coulde denie nothing M Harding perhaps to eschew this blame hath prepared himself when it pleaseth him to denie any thing The fault that Maister Iuell here findeth with Clement is that by the testimonie of Saint Ierom his bookes are not pure and apostolicall It is neuer a worde so saith Maister Harding Saint Ierom is falsified If Brutus were now aliue peraduenture M. Harding might be commended But bicause Saint Iohn hath bid vs not to beléeue euery spirite euery bold asseueration must not stand for true Let vs sée what Ierom himself sayth and we shall iudge the better whether Maister Iuels report be true or no. Thus he writeth The olde writers haue quite reiected these other bookes ascribed to Clement And Eusebius in his third booke of the ecclesiasticall historie doth reproue them Now except Maister Harding will say that the Apostles writing is condemned of these olde writers and catholike fathers or that Eusebius that good bishop of Caesarea reproueth their doctrine Why will he not haue his Clement to be accounted not apostolicall whom the old fathers reiect and Eusebius reproueth The substaunce of such vntruthes doe make the gatherer appeare either ignorant or euill disposed Harding The .22 vntruth Dering Here Maister Harding maketh one vntruth ioyntly out of Saint Ierom and Eusebius where Maister Iuel saith Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius saith thus c. M. Harding for the better multiplying of vntruthes saith first Saint Ierom sayth it not next Eusebius sayth it not thirdly they say it not Had he dwelt among the Lacedemonians for this great talke of vntruthes little reason in shewing them he should surely haue bene accounted for a babler If we graunt that his sayings are true yet are these thre but one vntruth and that not made by M. Iuell but by S. Ierom. Thus we sée when it pleaseth him he will not vnderstand neither the common phrase of speaking nor what is ment by plaine sayings Again when it pleaseth him he will vse more Logicke then either is true or honest Such a Proteus he is in his owne vnderstanding The. B. of Saris. Clement is condemned by Gelasius Harding The .23 vntruth It is not condemned by him Dering Nowe Maister Harding is come to his olde compasse He denieth he careth not what Nothing shall want a bold asseueration if his simple authoritie may proue any vntruth but let vs not trust him before we trie him so we shall knowe the better what Gelasius sayth His wordes are thus reported by Gracian We haue thought good to note certain bookes which are come to knowledge and ought to be auoyded of catholike people First the councell holden at Ariminum gathered by Constantine the Emperour the sonne of Constantinus by meane of Taurus lieutenant from thenceforth and for euer we iudge worthy to be condemned Likewyse the Iournall of Peter the Apostle bearing y e name of Clement Eight bookes are secrete vnlawfull writings Nowe consider with these wordes of Gelasius this booke which for his Masse sake M. Harding doth so much defende It goeth vnder the name of Clement so doth that which Gelasius condemneth It contayneth .viii. bookes and so doth that They are accoūted Apocrypha secret writings and so are the other Beside this Gelasius condemneth a booke called the Iournall of Peter and this Clement himselfe sayth that S Peter willed him to write that booke but yet vnder this title that it should be called the Iournall of Clement And to conclude those bookes condemned by Gelasius teach euill doctrine and so doth this Clement And shall Maister Hardings plaine wordes counteruaile so much likelihoode Well may those erre that néedes will be deceyued But among the louers of truth such vntruthes will be very odious The B. of Saris. Abdias was conuersant with Christ. Harding The .24 vntruth I say not he was conuersant with Christ. Dering Maister Harding may score vp his vntruthes after what sorte it pleaseth him but any indifferent man must needes thinke that Maister Iuell doth not falsifie his wordes when he layth them altogither euen as they are written If in repetition of any part of them he doe mistake the meaning such error deserueth verye little blame But bicause M. Harding is so farre driuen that if he should let slip euen the least aduauntage he shoulde sustaine great losse of his whole cause let vs examine all that is reproued and yéelde vnto the vtmost that may appéere faultie I say not saith he that Abdias was conuersant with Christ. But he sayth he saw Christ in the flesh and wrote diuers histories of the Apostles doings at which he himselfe was present of this to say he was conuersant with Christ is scarce worth the fault finding Yet maister Harding sayth stifly he onely sawe Christ in the flesh he was not conuersaunt with him By like he looked through the creuice with Eubulus when Christ helped Saint Basil to Masse and by that meanes Abdias could but sée him The B. of Saris. Lazius sayth that Saint Luke borrowed whole histories worde for worde out of Abdias Harding The .25 vntruth Lazius sayth not so Dering Here is first a very graue note in a weighty
vntruthe Then thus hang these vntruthes If this last be true that the Gréeke Church dothe consecrate with prayers the thirde is true that it intendeth not Transubstantiation And the second is true that it hath no suche intent as the Church of Rome hath and the first is true that these churches are not resolued in this intent Now consider I beséeche thée good Reader what manner of vntruthes these are that notwithstanding their great number are yet so smal in value that if but one be proued true all .iiij. must be graūted Sure thou must néedes confesse that M. Harding who in his Epistle would so faine shoote at hobs and rouers yet at this marke he hath had so good deliuery that he hathe farre ouershot him selfe and his whole commendation is no more worthe than that praise in Horace of a babling Poete qui variare potest rem prodigialiter vnam which cā turne a true sentence into a great many lies For proofe of this last vntruthe on which the other hang we haue the plaine wordes of the Councel of Florence alleaged by M. Iuel where it is shewed that in the Gréekes mynisterie after the words of Christ pronounced this is my body they make this prayer fac panem hunc honorabile corpus Christi tui c. make this breade the honourable body of thy Christ. By this prayer it is manifest that these wordes this is my body being pronounced before did not worke Transubstantiation But bicause it hath pleased M. Harding in to great a zeale of his number to score vp vntruthes thus vnwisely least his friends should thinke the matter vnsufficiently answered we wil say somwhat of them in order euen as M. Harding noteth them and I doubt not but to the indifferent reader they shall one of them sufficiently confute an other First saith M. Harding the Church is resolued on the Priests entent But that is very false For the Gréeke Church and the Church of Rome haue not one intēt The Greke Church as is said doth consecrate with prayers The Church of Rome with hoc est enim corpus meum The Gréeke Church maketh more accompte of the worthy receiuing than of Consecration The Churche of Rome thinketh we ought to haue more regarde of Consecration than of the worthy receiuing I leaue out other differences which are almost infinite This is inough to proue our purpose Secondarily saithe M. Harding the Church of Rome entendeth not Transubstantiation What he entended in this vntruthe I know not For my parte wold God M. Iuel said héere vntrue and that that Romish Church would leaue of that presumptuous entent Thirdly saith M. Harding the Gréeke Church meaneth transubstantiation And this is very straunge for a learned man to speake suche repugnances First y t the church of Rome intendeth not transubstantiation Againe that the Gréeke Church doth intend transubstantiation And thirdly y t they two intende one thing when M. Harding with all his wrangling can make these vntruthes agrée sure we wil subscribe Now resteth a little to be considered of the Councel of Florence whether it may appeare by it that the Churche of the Grecians acknowledge no transubstantiation Thus it stoode When the Latines in that assembly required that they might entreate of transubstantiation The Grekes made answere sine totius orientalis ecclesiae authoritate quaestionem aliam tractare non possimus without the consent of all the East Church we can meddle with no other question c. Héere be the Reader neuer so simple he must thinke thus muche If this article of transubstantiation were so Catholike as they will make vs beleue how commeth it to be called so ofte in controuersie in generall Councell And againe if the Grecians did accompte it as Catholike and were resolued in it what meant they that they would not subscribe to so highe a point of Christian religion sure this was their meaning they knew this transubstantiation was but a Romish deuise and therefore they would ▪ not yelde vnto it And thus muche of these hasty vntruthes The B. of Saris. The .13 Diuision But if Cyril neuer spake word of the Masse how is he heere brought in to proue the Masse Harding The .101 vntruthe Cyril is not brought to proue the Masse Dering But he should proue priuate Masse or else what maketh he héere For of that the question is moued And this is a very hard case that M. Harding must lose his vntruthe or else confesse he speaketh not to the purpose The B. of Saris. Neither may we thinke that Christes body must grossely and bodily be receiued into our bodies Harding The .102 vntruthe We must beleue it Dering As maister Harding hath forsaken Gods Religion and is fallen againe to Poperie so it séemeth also he hath forsaken his learning and beginneth to make vntruthes with his follie This is one of the chiefest articles for which we haue forsaken their vnfaithfull Churche As ofte as we repeate this we conclude the thing which lieth in controuersie betwene vs. This is our professed opinion and vpon the trial of it by good and sufficient aucthoritie if it be proued against vs Maister Iuel is ready to subscribe Then what meaneth maister Harding Or what maner of vntruthe is this Or who can accompte it for true and plaine dealing when vpon good ground we shewe forthe our opinion and he scoreth vp the question for an vntruthe He shal doe well to reproue it before he make anymoe vntruthes of this Reade the .104 vntruthe The B. of Saris. S. Cyprian saith it is meate not for the belly but for the minde Harding The .103 vntruthe S. Cyprian saith not so Dering If M. Harding and his Popishe felowes had falsified the Doctors no otherwise than M. Iuel héere falsifieth S. Cyprian then in a little chaunge of words we should haue had their meaning faithfully deliuered vnto vs and bastard bokes such as they knew not had neuer bene ascribed vnto them But thanks be to God who hath now lightned vs least suche vngodly writings vnder godly names should deceiue vs as touching this vntruthe I graunt the words are not in that treatise entituled de coena domini But whether the author say the same thing in sense let him selfe witnesse M. Iuel alleaging no Latine words but folowing the sense saith thus it is meat not for the belly but for the minde The wordes in Cyprian are these Sicut panis communis quem quotidie edimus vita est corporis ita panis iste supersubstantialis vita est animae sanitas mentis As the common bread which we eate daily is the life of the body so this bread supersubstantiall is the life of the soule and the health of the minde and what is héere falsified by M. Iuel Or what is worthy blame in this allegation Yet M. Harding taketh this smal occasion to finde fault with his printed sermon with his replie and with them that as he saith
confident and stubburne Hys confidencie I graunt He hath learned the good lesson of hys heauenly Father Confidite ego vici mundum be confident for I haue ouercome the world The Lorde is his helper and he shall not be moued for euer He is guiltie to him selfe of no crime herein he waxeth not pale with the memorye of any fault and therefore in the feare of God he hath sayd vnto hys soule hic murus aheneus esto stand fast as a brazen wall Would God M. Hardyng had had the lyke confidence the scornfull reproches of the proud should not haue proued hym stubburne Hardyng ¶ Our Lord yet if it be his pleasure once open your eyes and giue you grace to see the daunger of the poole you wade in Beware by tyme M. Iuell you fall not into the horrible gulfe that Salomon speaketh off Impius cum in profundum malorum venerit contemnit When the wicked man commeth into the bottom of euils he becommeth careles settyng all at nought If once you fall into thys bottom what hope is there of your recouery For whereas none returneth from euyll but he that repenteth hym of euil How can he repent that hath cast away all care Yea how can he steppe backe from euill and be made good that saith whose miserable state Esay lamenteth euyll is good and good is euyll How can he see the right way that maketh darknes light and light darknes How can he delight in sweete thyngs that taketh sowre for sweete and sweete for sowre Dering From these vncharitable beginnings M. Harding falleth as it may séeme to a charitable prayer but were the same acceptable in the sight of God he himselfe should returne from all hys abhominations now it procéedeth from the Minister of iniquity We are put in minde of the country prouerb that it is ill wyth the Géese when the Fox preacheth If the prayers were ryghteous he pretendeth here not our bloud but their owne teares should haue watred their eyes Nowe bicause their prosperitie hath bene the slaughter house of Satan this submission in aduersity can be but the Crocodiles teares If God of hys iustice shoulde carye vs agayne captiues into Babilon we know the purple whoore and the whyps of hir fornication But God be praysed the lynes are fallen to vs in pleasaunt places yea we haue a fayre heritage for the waye that Maister Iuell wadeth in it is not that horrible gulphe which M. Harding can not sée wherein the bottom of all euyll abydeth The spirite of God is our warrant that it is the narrow way which leadeth vnto euerlastyng lyfe there is no cause why M. Iuell should repent him of this iourneying he walketh in the way of health God of hys good wyll and mercie shall giue vnto hym that hys course be finished in the same He maketh not good euill nor euyll good he putteth not darknesse for light nor light for darknesse he saith not swéete is sower and sower is swéete And for as much as the whole controuersie betwéene vs doth rest in this whether of vs is in darknesse it shall not be tedious vnto the Christian Reader if in the woord of God we doe séeke for triall for that giueth vnto the simple sharpnesse of wyt and to the children knowledge and discretion neyther is it hydden but from the eyes of the scorner neither yet peruerted but of the wycked Let vs aske of the same woord what is good what is the lyght and what is swéete It is good for thée saith Peter to harken vnto the woorde And thy woorde saith Dauid is a lantern vnto our féete a light vnto our steppes and the same woorde is more swéete then hony and the hony combe Then as thys same word is true so we are assured of all goodnesse all light and pleasure if we follow it and therefore blesse onesse is pronounced ouer hym that readeth and them that heare that prophecie Now doe we call the world to wytnesse whether they or we do set out thys woorde We haue it in our churches and priuate houses we expounde it to the people we exhort them to reade it we call the ignorant from their errours wyth the same voyce that S. Augustine was called tolle lege tolle lege Take vp and reade and thys is as the holy Ghost doth witnesse good lyght and swéete But these men that crake so of their goodnesse what haue they done They haue pulled thys woorde out of their synagoges they haue not suffred it in the poore mans dwellyngs they haue not expounded it as the whole world can iudge they haue not made it the squire of their religion And if in any place that little booke was séene though in the houses of Bishops and Prelats yea in the verie palaces of Popes Cardinalls yet did it sléepe in the dust or if the candle was light it was set vnder a bushell The people did not knowe the meanes of their saluation the merite of Christes passion was mingled with mans good workes his continuall intercession darkned with the mediation of saints his bloudie drops wiped away with the remembring his holye martirs his crying out on the crosse at the yéelding vp of his spirit was not hard thorow the abusing the name of his blessed mother and in steade of other vnderstanding wherwith our soules are comforted we harkened after the straunge sounds of vnknowen trumpets in gadding on pylgrimage in paynting of Tabernacles in sensing of Idols in setting vp of Candels before stocks and stones in blasphemous Masses in idolatrous Altars in halowing of Temples in christining of Bells in selling of Merites in turning of Roodes in a thousand mo iuglings inuented by Satan and practised by his ministers that from the top to the toe from the hill altars vnto the church doore ther was nothing whole in that froward generation Neither they themselues can denie this though they like to dissemble it cry out how they will y t we make euil good and good euill And for the charging vs with darknes the thing so disagréeth that the ignorant require a further proofe and the learned doe sée ther much wrangling eloquence doe we make darknesse light I say as before what shadowes doe we walke in what darkenesse doe we preach wherein are we blinde leaders of the blinde Accusations may not goe for arguments nor slaunderings for sufficient proofe O Maister Harding turne againe to your writings examine your authorities consider your counsails applie your examples looke if any line be blamable in our seruice take hold of your aduantage I think Maister Iuel will accept it as an article No no this offer doeth not like you you see to great a hazarde of your little estimation Our seruice is good and godly euerie title grounded on holie scriptures and with what face doe ye cal it darknesse Sure with the same that the prophecies of the holy ghost were sometyme called dreames the doctrine
of the handes and casting vp of the eyes to heauen and with your lamentable crying out of your Oos which you vse very commonly weening thereby to perswade the simple your stoute asseuerations your fauour of the common people and others that clap you on the shoulder your vaine Pulpet buzzing your Gloria patri at Pauls crosse all this hath made many a one beleue that M. Iuell was a great Clarcke a piller of the Gospell a peerelesse fellow But now that you haue sayd all that you and your whole side had to say now that you haue discouered that lay hid before now that your best stoare is laid abroade now that you haue made the world witnesse of the proofes you haue for your doctrine they that haue but meane skill behold a further weakenesse to be on your side then before they had conceiued Better it had beene for you ye had mayntained your opinion and estimation among your own deceiued brotherhed with silence and with your accustomed craking without shewing forth any proofes Dering Now is M. Harding come to his pretye solace with one Megabises a great man of little name in his own deuice lyking him selfe well forceth much his eloquence as if the Owle were the fairest bird in the wood But we shoulde doe him much wrong to barre him of his pastime that hath nothing else to comfort himselfe withall His cause is nought his bookes are contemned his credite is lost and that whych gréeueth him most of all he hath made an vnequall matche In these extremities what if he vse his tongue at will Megabises he both can do but litle harme The one doth but milke an hée Goate while the other doth holde vnder a syue It is now no time to spreade abroade anye cunning to prooue my Lord of Sarisbury is not learned as long as his Replye lyueth and it shall lyue till his aduersaries be confounded Neither his square Cap nor his Rochet nor his sightly state nor his Bishopricke shall at all commende him We haue the testimonies of his minde which God hath made so bewtifull that all his other ornaments are knowen to be to fewe yet concerning his good estate I doe aunswere with Salomon God ouerthroweth the wicked and they are not but the houses of the righteous shall stand For thys description of hys maner of preaching first it becommeth Diogoras better than a Diuine Then what skilleth it though Zoilus or Zerophanes doe scoffe at Homer Pardon me M. Harding if I say the truth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is easier for you to mocke at it then to doe the like But what meane you thus bitterly to raile at his preaching Why iest you at his lamētacion for the peoples disobedience Haue you lost both your cause and your learning togither Uerily whē your Pope was Deane of S. Paules there was then neither lifting vp of handes nor bringing downe of hartes neither crying out of Oos nor inward grief of Iis neither yet gloria patri nor mors praedicata filij You might heare the heauens harmonie for anie pulpet noyse yet loftye descant within amonge the Balamites organe pipings at pleasure and although no pulpet yet goodly chauncell buzzing I maruail you durst make mention of his preaching But such is the blind mans hap that séeth not his way by making haste goeth ouer his shooes ere he be aware in the mire Hardyng ¶ Howe little truth you haue for your side and howe many vntruthes you haue vttered by your replie partlye by this Reioynder and more largely by the labours of other men it shalbe declared Dering Nowe after this long a doe what proofe bringeth Maister Harding against this Replie for sooth he referreth vs partly to this Reioinder partly to the bird in y e bush that is to other proofes that shall come hereafter I knowe not well in thys case what to write If I shoulde vnrippe this Reioynder and shew all the faultes it hath then os impudentia a bande of Louanistes cry out in the ayre of lyings corruptions misconstruings alterations and a thousand such other Some sende ouer their pamfletes some returne their vntruthes some whet leaden hatchets some séeke reall presence some make blinde discourses some hunt out their Purgatorie some fight for their images some stumble on their rocke and suche as can doe nothing else cry beware of M. Iuell But truth must not be still for feare of the sclaunderer God giue vs grace to take héede of thys Reioynder in vttering of an heresie it is more talking thā the Turtle in speaking out the truth more dumme than a Fish in auoiding authorities more winding than the Serpent in resisting Gods spirite more hard than yron in substance an open market of all maner of euill We that sée it doe giue God the prayse that maketh his truth to shine through so many cloudes They that fauour their doings may bewayle wyth Andromache lifting vp Astionax handes Spes nullas habet Troia si istas habet Troy hath no hope at all yf it haue no hope but this Concerning those other proofes that shall come hereafter I can say but this pro boscide vnius abscissa monstratum est mori posse belluas we know by this Reioynder all your other bookes are soone aunswered Harding ¶ As concerning your aunswere to my preface it is lyke the rest of your booke all together voyde of truth and plaine dealing c. that you haue discouered our wants therein you speake vntruly Dering Now is M. Harding come to the defence of his Preface and as his manner is blaming M. Iuels whole writing reioyneth as hée séeth good where it liketh him best and first boldlye ynough denieth that M. Iuell coulde discouer anye wants on their side But alas this is but a bragge Is there no want on their side Why then doth he handle his friends so vngentlie Why turneth he them ouer to their owne defence Why dissent they one from an other If perhaps he say their Church hath no wants his owne fellowes are against him Scotus sayth the Churche hath somewhere the harder part Their Councels conclude some one against an other some against the Apostles them selues Their Popes haue extremelye hated one an other in suche sorte as neuer Turke or Infidell hath done the like Yea such is the impudencie of their Church and so little account they make of disagrement that they would make Christes Apostles teache one contrary to other The .6 Canon and the .40 Canon and the .50 Canon of the Apostles alow the mariage of priestes the .25 Canon forbiddeth them to marrye The .80 Canon of the Apostles doth straightlye charge and commaunde that no Bishop or Priest do debase him selfe to any worldlye labour and alledge for their purpose this scripture No man can serue two maisters And yet the cōstitutions of the same Apostles doe quite contrary and commaund that the Priests do labour vsing their own example of which some were
his sonne Christ quis vestrum arguet me de peccato which of you can conuince me of sinne Who euer defended a matter c. Your doctours at Oxford against these reuerend Fathers D. Cranmer D. Ridley and M. Latimer Who euer in so weighty pointes c. You in your aunswer and héere in defence of your modesty And yet this ioly fellowe c. I will speake nothing of this modesty For vndoubtedly it is far spent But this is a Popes disputation to aske vs first our mindes and then to conclude whether we wil or no. But fare you well Maister Harding nowe you are off the stage giue vs leaue a little to speake to the audience Marke christiā reader this mans intemperancy He hath purposed to defend his vaine and beastly Religion and thou shalt sooner ouerturne the whole estate of his lyfe then bring him from it Hée hath woorshipped so long in the church of Rome that Elizeus the Prophet cannot call him out of it He careth not what he saith nor how boldly he affirmeth and he is not ignorant of this him selfe but he is so far of from hauing any thing for him selfe that he thinketh he must not onely speake against vs but euen against nature against the warnings of reason against the opinion of al men against the scriptures of God He defēdeth his modestie with mostim̄odest woordes He shameth not to saye Maister Iuels Booke is foolish which is a looking glasse of learning to al that vnderstand it He saith his arguments be péeuish which yf they be not grounded in Gods woorde I require thée beleue them not He saith he spareth not the maiesty of the holy ghost and Christ our Lord and yet in so great blasphemy bringeth no one coniecture And how doeth he handle all this With so good and chosen woordes so handsome colours so whole sentences that although he hath made warre against God and his Church yet he séemeth to speake déepe diuinity God giue vs grace to beware of him He is a blinde leader of the blinde But he is come againe let vs sée what he hath more to say Harding ¶ You would haue men thinke this were Vetus Comoedia No M. Iuell it is Zelus Dei it not Vetus Comoedia The imitation of Vetus Comoedia hath euer bene takē for a badge of men of your profession c. You mocke and scoffe at our persons as the naughty boyes of Bethel dyd at Elizeus but at our auncient Religion at the church of Christ. Yet wee curse you not in the name of our Lord as he did those euill nourtered children that ye might be toren of Beares c. With your wicked doctrine you haue so brought the people from God as now for a great number they may seeme not to halt on both sides but to be fallen downe right Yet doe we not call for fire to discend from heauen and burne you vp Neither doe we stirre the people to take you and destroye you as Elias bad the people to destroye the false Prophetes Dering Haue you not left iarring of this vnmodest string Belike it is very pleasant musicke in your eares This manner of behauiour say you is not Vetus comoedia no open naming of men vpon stages What is it then It is Zelus Dei I may not iudge directly what you are within Paule was a persecutour in defending their traditions but sure your zeale is not according to knowledge you loue darknesse more thē light and therfore you dwell in ignorance you seeke not after wisdome as after siluer and gold and therfore you finde hir not You saye we scoffe at you and your Religion as the. c. At your persons we scoffe not God is our witnesse we wéepe to see the temple of the holye Ghost to be the temple of an Harlot it gréeueth vs that in the Image of God shoulde appeare Sathans vglye visage And you want not our prayers for your returne But your auncient Religion we hate and abhorre it It is so olde that it is rotton and one péece wil not hange with an other it is a smoke that at the flaming out of gods woord is vanished it is a stinking mist it is ouerblowen with the swéete windes of the holy spirit And therfore doo not blame vs if we cannot abide it Your Religion is as good as your vaunt is true when you commende your selues for clemencie aboue Elizeus or Elias You saye you praye not that we maye be torne of Beares nor that fyre from heauen maye come downe to destroye vs. What your prayer is inwardely I say it oft I know not But for your good will towarde vs if you coulde commaund either beastes or Elements we should not escape neither Beare nor fyre The aboundance of our bloode crieth out to heauen that you are as mercifull as the woolfe or the Tyger But O passi grauiora dedit deus his quoque finem his name be praysed for euermore Harding ¶ Certaine false preachers for their great impudency and for that they barked at the light of the Gospel as dogs do at the Moone by night S. Paule called dogges and bad the Philippians beware of them c. Dering Here Maister Harding would couer his vngodly demeanour with the cloke of godlynes for that S. Paule called certaine vngodly teachers doggs and euill labourers and therfore he woulde gladlye saye as much to Maister Iuell But who were they that thus barked at the Gospell Uerily men of their owne Religion For thus saith S. Paule Beware of doggs beware of euill workers beware of concysion For we are the circumcysion that worshipp God in the spirite and reioyce in Christ Iesu and haue no confidence in the fleshe But O the wretched Church of that confounded Babylon what one-péece hath it of this spirituall woorship that is to reioyce in Christ alone and haue no confidence in the fleshe Do they not make Angels their mediators Do they not call vpon Paule and Peter Doe they not say that their whoorish Masse is propitiatory Doe they not byd men go range a pilgrimage for the greater meades Doe they not say ther is a merit of our workes And what say they not that leaneth to flesh and bloode This ▪ is the barking doctrine this is the tearing renting in peces of Christ his merites S. Augustine saith non gratia ex merito sed meritum ex gratia Grace commeth not of deserte but deserte commeth of grace Let them leaue off their iesting at Maister Iuells worship it is no tyme to speake euill of authority Euen in such language the hart is sorowfull and the ende of that myrth is heauinesse Harding ¶ Ieremie calleth them of Iewry Staliens for that they neyed eche one at an others wyfe Ezechiel calleth the false Prophetes of Israel Foxes so Christ him selfe named Herod a Fox Dering Yet M. Harding procéedeth in the long space of his owne modestie and as he must néedes doe alledging
Apostle commeth iudgement Here is no colour of shift least except they wil say after death that is when the generall daie of iudgement shall bée And if this might serue then had they somewhat to saye But S. Iohn hath preuented such wrestinge of scriptures After death as he teacheth is immediatly as soone as we be with God for this he writeth Blessed ar the deade which dye in the Lorde from henceforth saith the spirit they rest from their labour No labour abideth any more for them after death immediatlye they are receiued into ioy and their workes doe follow them And this present ioy of the godlye is likewyse specified where the same Apostle writeth that an hundred fourty and foure thousand did stande with the lambe in y e mount Sion meaning the elect which wer w t Christ in his kingdome An hundreth such other places there are in the scripture which testifie of our estate after death and do quite ouerthrowe the Popes purgatory Nowe for the better contentation of the Reader it were worth the labour to answere to al those places of the scripture in which they make so many blinde gesses at purgatory The places are Math. 5.26 c. 12.32 c. 18 34. Luc. 12.59.16.19 l. Co. 3.15 Phil. 2.10 Apo. 5.15 But read these places who list in the feare of God and true desire of knowledge he can by no imaginations haue one gesse at purgatory and yet for the establishing of such a doctrine it had bene requisite they could haue shewed euen the name for the interpretation of other men be they neuer so olde We may saye with the Apostle Euery man aboundeth in his own vnderstanding but no man knoweth the thinges that are Gods saue God alone and his woorde if we will not be deceiued must be our onelye guider But they haue one place 2. Mach. 12.44 in plaine words that it is good to pray for the dead if that booke be of able autority We rede likewise of one Razias an Elder of Ierusalem which first ran vpon his own sworde and when he missed of his stroke he ranne to the top of the wall and threwe him selfe downe among the multitude and yet hauing life in him went to the top of an highe rocke and pulled out his owne bowels and threwe them among the enimies and for this doing he is commended So by the authoritye of the same booke a man maye kill himselfe which Maister Harding him selfe I trowe will not constantly affirme yet this being scripture it might not be doubted Againe the same author saith If I haue done well and as the story requireth it is the thing that I desired But if I haue spoken slenderly and basely it is that I coulde These Iffes and Andes are not of that spirit which hath written the scriptures Thus doubting of his own ability besemeth not the holy ghost Beside this the gréeke in the same place is so corrupt that scarce any sense coulde be made of it And Ioseph ben Gorion out of whom that story semeth to be gathered in the same place doth quite leaue out this praying for the dead But it maye be that in those dayes some ignoraunt Iewes vpon an vnwyse deuotion did thinke it good to praye for the deade and likewise to praye againe vnto them that they would helpe vs. Which if it were so by such meanes this place might come into the Machab. And that some did thinke thus thoughe they were alwayes otherwyse instructed it appereth by one manifest place which is read in Philo Iudeus where he writeth the death of Debora who made a godly exhortatiō to hir people before she dyed For afterward they should finde no repentaunce There some made aunswere vnto hir Ecce nunc mater moreris ora itaque pro nobis post recessum tuum erit anima tua memor nostri in sempiternum Praye for vs after thy departure and let thy soule be mindefull of vs for euer To whom Debora maketh aunswere Adhuc viuens homo potest orare et pro se pro filijs suis post finē autem non poterit exorare nec memor esse alicuius yet while a man is liuing he may pray for him selfe and for his children but whan he is deade he can neyther intreate nor be mindeful of any And it followeth your similitude then shal be like the starres of heauen which are now manifest in you Hereby we sée what iudgement the common people mighte haue in such matters And yet howe the godly did otherwise instruct them reade this place thou shalt finde it so plaine that no wrangling may shift it of but nedes we must confesse that it teacheth vs that we ought neither to praye vnto saintes to help vs neyther yet agayne can we helpe them when they be gone Wherby it appeareth what manner of archer Maister Harding hath ben that could not shoote at so plaine a marke But he did shoote at his own dreames and so he lighted on Purgatorie Yet there follow a great many of markes at the which M. Hardyng could neuer shoote home The first is that the masse and our Communion is one wyth that marke sayth he I was neuer acquaynted Hys loose without doubt is very ill or he shooteth to low a compasse or else he draweth not close For M. Stapleton that shooteth with the same bow and arrowes hitteth this marke euen at the first The Masse and the Communion saith he duelye ministred is all one and it is folly to thinke any contradiction betwéene the Communion and the Masse Thus it appeareth M. Harding is a verye wrangler that wyll not shoote at that marke which his owne fellowes finde An other marke that M. Harding could neuer shoote at is this that Eucharistia doth signifie not the Sacrament but common bread I maruail he could neuer shoote at this marke For sith he began first that babling aunswere to M. Iuels learned Challenge he hath alwaye bene hobbing among those marks wher this is one though he neuer shot at the selfe same yet hath he seldome shot but at such like For it is a marke of slaundering and a marke of lying at whych marke as well in this Reioynder as other where M. Harding most commonly doth shoote very nere I neuer said saith he that Eucharistia was common breade but the sacrament This marke I could neuer sée In déede no maruail for who can well sée the thing that is not But you father this saying vpon Maister Iuell which reporte is all togither vntrue and slaunderous and in shootinge at this marke you drawe maruailous cleane and haue good deliuery be it prickes or rouers you haue measured the ground so oft that you knowe what to shoote But I pray you M. Harding where sayth M. Iuell thus What be his woordes Wher are they to be foūd Thinke you notwithstanding your oft vntrue demeanour that you can discredite your aduersary vpon your bare word The
a sacerdotibus eorū ad haerentibus propter lucrum temporale likewise it happeneth in the church that the people are very much deceyued through fayned miracles wrought by the priests and their adherents for temporall gaine Let Mayster Harding denie it and denie it and denie it againe these are Liraes very wordes let the booke be iudge And what fault is there in mayster Iuell who reporteth of Lira that many fayned miracles are wrought in the open church to deceyue the people Forsooth sayth M. Harding Lira saith not that miracles are wrought Yet Lira sayth similiter fit in like maner it is done Further sayth M. Harding he sayth not in the open Church yet these are his wordes in ecclesia in the open Church for what meane Gretian woulde denie that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the open congregation and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to call assemblies Last of all maister Harding denieth that Lira saith to mocke the people Yet thus Lira wryteth maxima deceptio populi fit in miraculis The people are very much deceyued with fayned miracles But it foloweth in Lira propter lucrum temporale for temporall gaine and therefore sayth mayster Harding it was not to mock the people Nowe sure this is a very ill defence of hys friendes Turpe lucrum res pessima filthy gaine is the woorst of all thing That it is which hath layde to sale Masses Dirges Trentals Dispensatiōs Iubileis Pardons Indulgences Purgatorie and all the Popes pedlarie This defence the truer it is the more it verifieth Mayster Iuels saying For he that hath pleasure in such gaine would haue some pastime in the peoples errour But I pray mayster Harding was all your miracles for gaine When S. Andrevv saw dogs running after a hare and sodenly made the dogs féete all cleaue to the ground what gaine had he by it When our ladie came downe from heauen and sowed Thomas Beckets hearne breaches that hir priest might haue leaue to say Masse againe what got she by it when Saint Thomas rose out of his kingly tumbe and asked those that watched them what they made there saying non hic sum ascendi enim I am not here but I am ascended who gaue Thomas euer a grote for his labor And that we maye vse your owne example What helped it Christ or all his Apostles to come downe from heauen and helpe Saint Basil to Masse what was he the ritcher or when all the Apostles came some a thousande some two thousande myle in lesse than a quarter of an houre to sée our ladies assumption what got they by theyr hastie iourney And to come nerer home among vs when Roodes were made sweat or roll their eyes or nod theyr heades what gaine was their in it When Christ and our ladie came downe to walke vpon the aultare when foure angels came downe to minister the Chalice vnto the Abbot when the Crucifixe did walke from the sepulchre to the aultare on Easter day in the morning When twentie such other miracles were made was it all for gaine Ten thousand haue seene it and neuer cost them pennie Then we our selues are witnesses that sometime blinde miracles were wrought onely to deceyue the people Why therefore doth Mayster Harding note this for vntrue if the estimacion of his honestie the regarde of his reader the loue of truth or the feare of god do moue him why doth he blame this allegation of Lira except as Thraso sayth he was neuer any where where all men did not loue him to M. Harding thinketh no man will reade his Reioinder that will not beleue him But what he thinketh onely God knoweth Sure his doing hath very great suspicion of euill meaning The B. of Saris. Pighius acknowledgeth errours in the priuate Masse Harding The .16 vntruth He acknovvledgeth no errours in the priuate Masse Dering Nowe mayster Harding beginneth to hew and mangle Mayster Iuels wordes and will not as he is requested lays them out plainely and so say against them what he can But we must beare with greater faultes then this or else burne the Reioinder Therefore I will let his skipping alone it is a good proufe he could not confute it Let vs sée what is this vntruth Pighius sayth he acknowledgeth no errours in the priuate Masse Why then doth he not shew vs Pighius hys words He would no doubt if they had furthered his purpose but it was good to conceale them Some man wil perhaps beleue him on his worde In déede Pighius doth not say there be errours vsing this worde in the priuate Masse but he speaketh plainly that there are well nighe all maner abuses in it These are his words Quod si qui abusus in rem sacratissimā saluberrimam irrepserunt velut irrepsisse plerosque non diffitemur ▪ c. What will Mayster Harding haue vs thinke that plerique is a fewe or certaine or is this worde so taken in Louaine Sure I am that in the Romaines time it signified a great sort very many the most part I néede not to vse example Euery childe of the Grammar schole doth knowe it But I thinke maister Harding will not stand in this He will denie that an abuse is an errour that is a simple shift in déede and the saluing of one errour with an other Erro is vnwittingly to be deceyued to faile to go amisse and error or erratum a fault comming of ignoraunce and therfore it is called quasi deceptio in maner a deceyuing And Tullie sayth Etsi aliqua culpa tenemur erroris humani a scelere tamèn liberati sumus Although in some part as men we are deceiued yet we were frée from any great offence in another place Errauit an potiùs insaniuit Apronius Was Apronius deceyued nay he was rather mad Hereby it appeareth that an errour is but a small offence Nowe if Pighius had sayde there had béene errours in the priuate Masse he had sayde but little to the disproufe of it But he sayth there are almost all abuses in it as no doubt it is a sincke of all abhominations Abusus sayth he that is euill vnhonest vncomely wicked vsage not of ignoraunce but of purpose and malice So Donatus sayth we vse by right and dutie we abuse with iniurie which is a rooted vice Vtimur cùm honore abutimur cum iniuria So Pighius graunting Plerosque abusus in his priuate Masse meane what he will thus he sayth that in hys Masse of malice of set purpose of a wicked desire Gods people are iniuriously abused This doe the very wordes enforce Yet I doe not thinke that Albertus Pighius did so meane it though his tong would not let his hart to lye but as it were some iniury to racke the worde so farre so is it great folly to denie that it may well be englished errours Yet about this vntruth Mayster Harding maketh so great exclamations as if he should declame for the
victorie Such Hercules buskins he can applie to little leggs and make so great vaunts where himselfe is furthest deceyued The B. of Saris. The name of Masse is seldome or neuer found among the Catholyke fathers Hardyng The .17 vntruth It is often found among the olde writers Dering Note good Reader how this man feareth not to note vntruthes so his number may grow This word is seldom found â—aith Maister Iuell in the catholike fathers it is found often sayth he in olde writers as though who soeuer were auncient he were straite way Catholyke Himselfe hath remoued in the 21. vntruth certaine commentaries of Ierom. And I must certifie thée there be other which notwithstanding their age yet haue no more authoritie than olde Aesopes fables Then notwithstanding Maister Hardings note of olde wryters yet M. Iuels saying of the catholike fathers may be true But I will not vrge Maister Hardings wordes admit he ment no guile in the naming of olde wryters How proueth he this vntruth He bringeth in .ix. fathers and counsels in which this worde Masse is found he sayth he could bring thrée mo that is .xii. in all The olde bookes which are written are almost infinite so in .12000 bookes he can finde that he seeketh for but .12 times yet sayth he it is found often Maister Iuell graunteth it is found somtimes Such vntruthes wil soone shame the controller Now this worde Masse or Missa least it shoulde beguile thée for that it is sometime in catholike fathers I will brieflye declare vnto thée what it is and in what sence it is found That which maister Harding calleth so ofte the Masse as Basils Masse Chrisostomes Masse and Iames his Masse in Gréeke it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth an open or common function and this signification it hath as well in prophane writers as in the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sayth Aristotle he is occupied in the administration of the commoÌ„ wealth and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to execute common offices So 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the open worshippinges and seruice of their Gods In like sort it is vsed in the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as they were openlye preaching and Saint Paule sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that I might be an open minister among the Gentiles and this is proued by the Etimologie or true explication of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quasi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that hath common businesse in hande Hereby it appeareth that eyther M. Hardings Masse is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and so neyther Chrisostome nor Iames nor Basil nor the other Gréeke authors euer sayde or named Masse or if they did the verye worde doth quite ouerthrow the priuate Masse As touching the Latine worde Missa we haue to learne it as the fathers sayde remissa for remissio so also they sayd missa for missio that is a sending away when in the primatiue Church such as were Nouices in christian fayth were sent away from the true beleuers which was before the communion And this appeareth by Saint Augustine where he sayth Ecce post sermonem fit missa cathecumenis manebunt fideles venietur ad locum orationis Beholde after the sermon the Nouices are dimissed the faythfull shall abyde and shall go vnto the communion For so maister Harding doth witnesse that orationis in Saint Augustine doth signifie and in déede in this place it is true Here haue we thrée especiall things to note the craft and subtilitie of Maister Harding and his friend Stapleton who both as it may be well thought vpon conference haue aledged the same places oute of doctors and councels where this worde Misâ—a is found and yet neyther haue mencioned this place of Augustine If they knewe it not they are not of that reading they pretend if they knew it it is to maliciously concealed Secondarily there abode no more in the Church but such as were communicants So this late gazing at a popish Masse was not then in vse Thirdly they did all communicate and then where was priuate Masse So this gorgious shewe to bleare the simple peoples eyes with the antiquitie of this worde Masse is an inuincible argument whereby pryuate Masse doth fall Examine the places that they themselues bring thou canst not wreast any likelihoode of priuate Masse out of them Yet this is moreouer to be noted that within .380 yeares after Christ the worde was neuer named in any probable author whereby it sufficiently appeareth that it was neuer knowne in Christes time nor in his Apostles after him And thus much of this worde Masse The B. of Saris. Clement was very lately found in the yle of Candie by one Carolus Capellius a Venetian written in Greeke and in these Countreis neuer heard of nor seene before Harding The .19 vntruth It hath beene seene before Dering Here Maister Harding committeth thrée great faults the one to charge maister Iuel with an vntruth when he alleageth Peter Crabs authority an other for misconstruing those wordes which are plaine and common the thirde for clipping of Maister Iuels wordes For where he wryteth it was neuer séene in these couÌ„treis Maister Harding quoteth his vntruth it hath beene séene But considering these poore shiftes wherevnto maister Harding is driuen I will graunt these wordes to be maister Iuels that it was neuer séene Who knoweth not that neuer here signifieth of long time or seldom if it had béene neuer séene howe could it haue bene written These grosse gatherings in so fine a wit néedes must sauour of malice It is the phrase of al laÌ„guages 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Saith Achilles they did neuer wast my fertile fieldes in Pthia yet not many yeres before were great iniuries done by the Troians eueÌ„ in Achilles countrey So Agamemnon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 O prophet of harmes thou neuer yet toldest me pleasant things Yet it were much for M. Harding to say Calchas pleased not Agamemnon when he foretolde what tyme Troie should be destroyed In lyke maner sayth Euripides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 There was neuer good son of an euill father yet was Ezechias good of wicked Ahaz So in the common prouerbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more auncient than the worlde we meane great continuance We say the same in Latine NunquaÌ„ tam palestricus praetor There was neuer such a wrastling chiefe Iustice meaning very seldome And in our english I neuer sawe such an other But what we meane by it that in déede was neuer doubted of neyther is Maister Harding so simple that he knoweth it not but he had rather speake against his owne knowledge then say nothing against Maister Iuell This is ynough to any indifferent reader to shewe that these vntruthes are but wranglings But read the replie and thou must néedes confesse it were thou neuer so parciall For Maister Iuell himselfe alleageth Leo Gelasius Bessarion which disalow this booke and how could that be if
them shall séeme but wrangling and this new counterfeit Abdias shall be reiected as a teller of dreames and a lying wryter And for our great comfort god will bring to passe that when it shall be knowne to the indifferent reader that Papistrie can not stand without such shamelesse doctors they shall begin to learne that it is a shamelesse doctrine The B. of Saris. Beholde what thinges they be that be written of Maximilla wife to Aegis that she being once christened would no more yeelde dutie to hir husbande but set Euclia hir mayde in hir owne place and other like fables All these and such like tales thus disalowed by S. Augustine are reported by Maister Hardings Abdias in great sooth Harding The .31 vntruth These tales be not reported by Abdias Dering Now is maister Harding come as he sayth to a great and impudent lye and such a one as by no meanes can be excused let the booke saith he be iudge I doe M. Iuell great wrong to write in his cause with so little diligence But for this cause I doe it which I trust I shall well performe that the vnlearned should not be deceiued For the learned be they not of wil blinded Maister Hardings bookes can not hurt them he hath made so vnequal a match Thou séest good reader for the iustifiing of this vntruth whereat are made so great exclamations one should read ouer all Abdias which labor I lothed so as if Amaras porrecto iugulo c. as Horace writeth I should haue stretched â—ut my necke and listened after bitter histories yet when there was no remedie I tooke the booke and in diuerse places read so much I think as amounteth to one whole leafe or more and of that little reading as I can I answere There is named in Augustine one Maximilla such one is named in Abdias she was wife to Aegetes or Aegeas so was Abdias his Maximilla she had a mayd named Iphidamia or Iphidama so sayth Abdias of his Maximilla and hir handmayd Iphidamia sayth Saint Augustine went to go heare S. Andrevv and so did the handmayde in Abdias and of all this I say as M. Harding sayth let the bookes be iudge Nowe reader I must craue thine indifferent iudgement sée whether Augustine and Abdias meane one Maximilla If they do remeÌ„ber Augustine sayth they be impudent lyes and Abdias doth tell them in great sooth But sayth Maister Harding Abdias and August do not write a like of Maximilla Sure it is the more like Abdias is a lier But what if we say Abdias did write whatsoeuer Saint Augustine hath Barre maister Harding of his gesses and he can not confute it Iohn Faber a great fabler of maister Hardings side sayth that this Abdias when he was founde was all reueled and without any fashion full of faultes so that one could neyther read him by vnderstanding nor vnderstand him by reading Then no maruaile if some part of it be perished and the booke be not come wholy vnto our handes though Abdias say not euery whit that is in Augustine When maister Harding can bring any péece of likelihoode how this agréement may be betwéene them and yet they meane not both one then let this go for an vntruth In the meane season consider whereto this shamelesse impudent and notorious lye is fallen whereof he hath made such tragedies and what the other vntruthes be when so great account was made of this This is it that I saide before maister Harding was little beholding vnto Abdias First he could not pleasure him for his small authoritie now he hath shamed him with this vnshamefast defence The B. of Saris. Saint Augustine seemeth in diuerse places to haue giuen his iudgement of this booke Hardyng The .32 vntruth Saint Augustine meaneth not of Abdias Dering Maister Harding hath good lyking in his owne doing or this vntruth should not haue bene noted twise For the matter there is inough saide in the former vntruth the argument of the thing doth witnesse of Augustines meaning The. B. of Saris. The like iudgement hereof is giuen by Gelasius Harding The .33 vntruth Gelasius meaneth not of Abdias Dering Maister Harding is so iealous ouer his Abdias that in no case he will let him be spoken off The booke be like is so full of lyes that he is sure no man can speake any good of it But how so euer he be affectioned we must thinke of authors no otherwise then we finde them He is not yet Pope and therefore may erre his word is no good witnesse of an other mans meaning Gelasius whome so euer he meaneth certaine it is he may meane Abdias for the worthinesse of the booke And whereas maister Harding for some proufe of his side sayth that he coÌ„demneth certain actes of Martyrs which are thought to be written by infidels Gelasius hath not one such worde But where as maister Harding saith further for the discharge of Abdias that Gelasius speaketh of one Quiricus and Iulita his mother this is a mocking of his reader without all regard of honestie First what kindred was betwéene these two it skilleth not much but Iulita may as well be his daughter as his mother for any thing that Gelasius sayth But let the kindred go maister Hardings reason hangeth thus Gelasius reiecting one hundreth bookes among other nameth the passioÌ„ of Quiricus ergo he reiecteth not Abdias and this is all the reason on which he groundeth this vntruth reade his Reioinder Nowe way on the other side what cause Maister Iuell hath to thinke Gelasius ment Abdias and vpon conference of eyther reason this vntruth shall be very soone answered The second booke that he condemneth is the actes of saint Andrew Abdias doth write the actes of S. Andrew The third is the actes of Philip Abdias wryteth y e actes of Philip. The fourth is the actes of Peter Abdias wryteth the actes of Peter The fift is the actes of Thomas Abdias wryteth the actes of Thomas Beside this he reiecteth the doings of Maximilla and Abdias speaketh of Maximilla Now let the indifferent reader iudge whether Gelasius meaneth of Addias or whether maister Hardings worde and misshapen argument may couÌ„teruaile all these coniectures The B of Saris. Thus it may be supposed by Saint Augustine and Gelasius that this booke was written by heritikes Harding The 34. vntruth A burthen of vntruthes Dering If this be a burthen of vntruthes no doubt the substaunce of them is very little For take away the .32 vntruth that Augustine meaneth not Abdias and the .33 vntruth that Gelasius meaneth not Abdias and except Eubulus come that saw Christ helpe Basil to Masse all this burthen of vntruthes is like to be vndone As touching the vntruthes there is inough saide already Whether they ment of Abdias it appeareth that maister Harding is to blind a iudge to gesse so boldly the contrary Here I must put thée once againe in minde of the numbring of these vntruthes First Saint
Augustine speaketh not of Saint Mathew the .2 nor of Saint Andrew the .3 nor of Abdias his Maximilla the .4 nor of Abdias the .5 nor Gelasius speaketh of Abdias the .6 nor they two speak of Abdias Thus the whole being ioyned is but one true proposition yet out of it after his maner of cutting maister Harding hath carued .6 lies And thus much of lying Abdias The B. of Saris. Martial was so defaced in many places that it could not be reade Harding The .35 vntruth It could be read else hovv coulde it be printed Dering By gesse Why should not the printer haue as much liberty in printing this little olde booke as maister Harding vseth for proufe of his whole religion The Printer himselfe sayth prae nimia vetustate vix legi potuerunt for estreame age they could scarce be read Nowe where as maister Harding doth aske how then could they be printed I aske of him how Abdias was printed For of him his sorbonist Doctor wryteth he could neyther be read nor vnderstand An other might much better haue moued this doubt then maister Harding He is not now to learne what gesses may doe But howe soeuer he was printed sure this vntruth was not worth noting The B. of Saris. It is iudged by Iohn Colet and other graue men that Dionysius can not be that Areopagita Saint Paules disciple which is mencioned in the Actes Harding The .36 vntruth It is not iudged so by Iohn Colet The .37 vntruth They are no graue men that so iudge Dering These vntruthes can not be good that are made so fast nor yet so many as the maker would haue them when one is told so many tymes If this were vntrue that maister Iuell writeth yet were it not two vntruthes but one But bicause there is no remedie we will take them euen as they fall out As touching the former of these two it néedeth no aunswere Maister Harding doth not denie it but that Iohn Colet hath both spoken it and preached it then what skilleth it whether it be written his preaching is a witnes of his opinion though maister Harding say nay For this other vntruth that such other as deny this Dionysius to be the true Areopagita are no graue men he is sure no graue man that hath noted it I may aunswere this with the wordes of Saint Paule horum laus non ex hominibus sed ex deo these mens prayses are not of men but of God Maister Harding should not for his modesty sake haue noted it for an vntruth to call the godly fathers of our age graue men His belligods Popes Cardnals Friers Monkes Priestes others of that kenâ—ll haue not so much laboured in searching out the truth in fiue hundred yeares as these other haue done in fiftie But God hath giuen the increase his name be praysed for euer As touching this Dionysius whether we haue his workes or no it is a thing soone iudged How vnlike is it that the conuersion of Dionysius should be mencioned by Saint Luke in the actes of the Apostles yet he him selfe would not mencion it once in al his workes or if this might be yet what may we thinke of that that in all his booke he doth neuer so much as once name Paule May it yet be doubted whether he be that Dionysius which Paule conuerted Besides this S. Ierom making purposely a rehearsall of all ecclesiasticall wryters speaketh not one worde of this Dionysius Other auncient fathers doe neuer alleage him his owne bookes are so strauÌ„ge fansies of many secrete misteries that sure it is he is not the true Areopagita The. B. of Saris. Saint Iames Liturgie hath an especiall prayer for them that liue in Monasteries and yet it was â—erie rare to haue Monasteries built in all Saint Iames time Harding The .38 vntruth There is no mention of such Monasteries as we commonly meane when we speake of Monasteries Dering As be for Monasteries as Monasteries are to speake of the things themselues as they are in déede so to say of Monasteries as they be considered in this meaning of Monasteries so Monasteries and so forth a man should go farre that shoulde follow Maister Hardings wrangling The B. of Saris. Chrysostomes Liturgie prayeth for Pope Nicolas by these wordes Nicolai sanctiss vniuersalis Papae longa sint teÌ„pora We pray God sende Nicolas that most holy and vniuersall Pope a long time to liue But Pope Nicolas the first of that name was the seconde Pope after dame Ione the woman Pope Harding The .39 vntruth He prayth not for Pope Nicolas of Rome The .40 vntr There was no such woman pope Dering Nowe Maister Harding after he hath giuen so many offers and maketh neuer a wound he directeth his engines quite contrarie and assayeth if that he can giue the Pope a blowe Pope Nicolas sayth Chrysostome that most sacred and vniuersall Pope That is no good proufe sayth Maister Harding that he meaneth the bishop of Rome Here is a full subscription to the .4 article The authorities alleaged for the Popes supremacie are quite ouerthrowne to be called vniuersall bishop is no proufe of his supremacie Had Maister Harding wel considered it this vntruth had bene quoted some other where but doubting that this be not aunswere good ynough he letteth it go and graunting it to be sayde of Pope Nicolas therevpon he asketh this question If Chrysostome might not pray for Pope Nicolas how is the death of Moyses described in the bookes of the lawe There is no man sayth he so hardie to denie that Moyses wrote these bookes Be not afrayd good reader of these big words nor of M â–ª Har. daring All this is soone aunswered Either Eleazar or Iosue wroâ—e the .34 Chap. of Deuter. And they might well write of Moyses his death Or if Moyses wrote it he knew it by reuelation For so he himselfe wryteth The lorde hath saide vnto mée thou shalt not go ouer this Iordane Sure of a doctor of diuinitie this was a very simple question If he can shewe any such reuelation that Chrysostome haâ— of Pope Nicolas then let this be Chrysostomes Masse The .40 vntruth is concerning pope Ione who neuer did the sea of Rome more dishonesty then she hath stoode maister Harding in good stéed For both she helpeth out his Reioinder with vntruthes and maketh a great péece of his confutation of the Apologie But saith maister Harding there was no such woman Pope What skilleth it to this present matter whether there were such a Pope or no. A filthie Strumpet is good ynough for such a whoorish kingdome If there were such a one Pope Nicolas was seconde after hir Whether there were or no my profes are néedelesse my lord of Sarisburie hath resolued vs in that behalfe The B. of Saris. Now it were much for me to say that Chrysostome prayed for men by name 700. yeares before they were borne Harding The .41 vntruth I say
christo apostoli ab ipsis eorū acciperint successores We do surely beleue that that forme of wordes which are in our Canon the Apostles receyued of Christ and there successors of them If this sentence might preuaile then the case of consecration had ben cléere But it is well if the Popes friendes will not beleue him For my part I meane not to purchase him any credit Now resteth the .57 vntruth to examine whether Scotus and Innocentius doe say that benedixit he blessed worketh consecration Maister Harding standeth stiffely in it and doth aduenture his credite that they say it not and being to much inflamed against Maister Iuell he writeth with a good countenance that of al the men that euer wrote he had least cause to bring Scotus for his purpose and that he is very rashe in so doing And if thou wilt beleue him for a cleare iustifying of this vntruth he sayth that Scotus and Innocentius neuer said that benedixit worketh consecration Surely good Reader these desperate assertions might well make thée thinke that thy bishop had deceyued thée But be not yet to hastie of beliefe be simple as the done but be wise as the serpent yea euē as the Romish serpent that hath so well prouided for his yong ones His Prelates may not be accused without .72 witnesses Let not thou a good bishop be discredited with one slaūderous tongue His priestes may not be controlled of any lay man be he neuer so religious Let not thou Gods minister be blamed of an Apostata yea and as though they were not yet prouided for well ynough Pope Euaristus ordeyned that the people should not accuse them at all Yea and that whole Laterane councell vpon good warrant of that saying of S. Paule the seruant standeth or falleth vnto his lord by authoritie of that sacred assemblie they exempt them from such temporall iurisdiction Then let vs be somewhat ware in defence of a Godly Bishop that maister Hardings bolde reprehensions may not proue him faultie Scotus and Innocentius saith Maister Iuell doe say that benedixit worketh consecration That is a false lye sayth M. Harding Then vppon good tryall let the truth appeare and let vs here what the Authors themselues say Scotus in déede sayth thus verba consecrationis sunt quatuor hoc est corpus meum There are 4. wordes of consecration this is my bodye If Scotus had said no more then maister Harding had alleaged all But it followeth a little after sed haec verba hoc est corpus meum prolata sine praecedentibus non significant hoc absolute But these words pronounced without the other wordes going before do not absolutely signifie this that consecration is done Loe Scotus sayth not as maister Harding reporteth him that consecration is wrought by these foure but saith he there is no consecration if the wordes afore which are the blessing be left out And now to auoyde all vaine cauilling about these words G. Biel sayth speaking of the same matter Quid si verba praecedentia omitterentur Respōdetur licet hic Scotus sit alterius opinionis tamen hoc communiter tenent doctores quòd haec quatuor sola sufficiunt ad effectum cōsecrationis What if the words going afore be omitted it is aunswered though Scotus be here of an other opinion yet the common sentence of doctors is these foure are sufficient Here besides the manifest words of Scotus G. Biel is also a witnesse that as maister Iuell sayth this is the common opinion but Scotus thinketh that the wordes going before are necessarye If then Scotus owne wordes and G. Biel witnesse are better proufe of Scotus meaning than Maister Hardings imagination it is true that the consecration is wrought by the whole blessing And this other saying before alleaged by M. Harding must be thus qualified that in that place he saith those are the especiall words Thus is Scotus saying auouched by maister Harding disalowed by his owne plaine words and by the testimonie of Biel. Concerning Innocentius whether he thought consecration was wrought by benedixit he blessed if Maister Harding had regarded his owne credite he would not haue denied it The whole troupe of his doctours doe so alleage his opinion First Scotus saith Sacerdos profert illa verba quasi materialiter quia recitat ea sicut a Christo dicta vt patet per rationem praecedentē in Canone Christus autem quādo illa dixit non transubstantiauit panem in corpus quod probatur ex verbis illius Canonis quia ibi praemittitur benedixit Vnde dicetur quòd per illam benedictionem praecedentem consecrauit non per ista verba hoc est corpus meum Cui concordat Innocentius Concerning the thirde article it is saide that the priest speaketh those wordes as the matter of consecration bicause he recyteth them euen as they were spoken of Christ as it appeareth by that which goeth before in the Canon But Christ when he saide those wordes did not transubstantiate the breade into his body as lykewise is proued by the Canon For there it is sayde before he blessed whereof it is sayde that by that blessing he did consecrate not by those other words this is my body and of this opinion is Innocentius in his booke of the office of the Masse .3 part the .6 Chapt. and the .14 Here hast thou Innocentius auouched and his opinion confirmed by Scotus Now for the thirde point of this vntruth Where Maister Harding saith if Maister Iuell had any mo he would haue named them May it please him to reade Alexander de Ales Okam Gotfrey Albertus Biel Marcilius diuers other of his owne doctors Either he must accuse them all as lyers or there are other of this opinion Thus we sée these great exclamations whereto they fall that in one title he cannot iustifie one vntruth But whether maister Iuell had mo to alleage or no reade his defence of the Apologie thou shalt sée fo 208. The B. of Saris. Cardinall Bessarion Bishop of Tusculum writeth thus Harding The .58 vntruth He vvriteth not so Dering If shamelesse lying were punished in Loueine then no doubt maister Harding would be more ware what he wrote Now as may be thought impunity haue made him confident Let the booke be iudge of this vntruth The B. of Saris. How be it by what soeuer wordes consecration is made it standeth no◠in abolishing of natures as maister Harding teacheth Harding The .59 vntruth I teach not so Dering Certainly good reader this vntruth is very straunge M. Harding is a great mainteiner of transubstantiation in al his doing yet here to get one vntruth he is content to forsake it I doe not teach sayth he that consecration consisteth in the chaunging of natures If it be so then by consecration the nature of bread doth not chaunge into the nature of christs flesh to this I gladly yéelde Would God maister Iuell said here vntruely The
part of Christes institution Harding The .70 vntruth This is not my argument Dering Here Maister Harding and his friend Stapleton doe not well accorde For Maister Harding skippeth one vntruth concerning the number of communicants Replie fo 20. diuis 3. which maister Stapleton maketh the .22 vntruth And least we should thinke it little worth he maketh the same againe the .23 vntruth and for a full conclusion shutteth also the .24 vntruth in it Yea and though it stand here for .3 vntruthes yet as if al they were not sufficient he made it once afore the .19 vntruth So much maister Stapleton maketh of one vntruth which maister Harding accounteth not worth numbring But the matter is not great he loseth nothing here that he will not finde in an other place As touching this vntruth these are M. Hardings verie wordes Concerning the number of communicants in one place that they iangle so much of it is no part of Christes institution For Christ ordeined the sacrament after consecration c. Nowe turne these wordes in forme of argument and they stand euen as maister Iuel placeth them Christ did ordeine the sacrament after consecration c. ergo the number of communicants is no part of Christes institution If these be Maister Hardings owne wordes as sée the booke and thou thy selfe shalt iudge thou canst not be so simple but thou must néedes sée this argument is no worse than himselfe hath made it But bicause in this place he also fashioneth one and in great confidence of his owne cunning writeth in the Margent of his booke an argument proponed to M. Iuell to be considered I will doe him no wrong in chaunging his woords but for that loue which I haue to M. Iuels profession in his behalfe I will as I can consider of it after his owne making But first I must aduertise thée before he setteth vp his mishapen building he layeth the foundation of an ill fauored stomacke and saith by M. Iuel that it is easie for a scoffer to scoffe at arguments framed of his owne scoffing head And so it is easie for an euill speaker in defence of his wicked Doctrine to reporte vnchristianly of Gods minister where suche vnquiet passions do leade away vnderstanding It may be he may finde fauorers but where the God of peace hath engraffed more moderation truthe shall not be preiudiced with suche vntrue behauior Muche other frothe ensueth in great plentie before we come to the proposed reason euen as a rotten wound defileth many clothes that are about it but let it be troden out with silence that cannot be remembred without muche loth somnesse At the last he commeth to his argument after his owne graue considerations thus it is fourmed What so euer is beside Consecration Oblation and Participation is beside Christes institution The number of Communicants in one place is beside these thrée Ergo the number in one place is no parte of Christes institution Of this argument M. Harding boasteth much and in any case will haue M. Iuel yelde vnto the Conclusion But softe M. Harding extorcion is no conclusion If you will enforce a graunt whether it be made or no you can by that be neuer the neare your purpose Therefore for as muche as you haue set forthe your argument as you say to be considered you séeme very vnconstant so soone againe to claime the concâ—usion But you sâ—y if we wil not yelde vnto the reason we must denie the Minor or second proposition True it is the Minor is false but we are not yet come at it The Maior that you thinke so sure is made of false and vnlawfull stuffing as by this consideration that you require shall well appeare The proposition is this What so euer is beside Consecration Oblation and Participation is beside Christes institution first this is false and teacheth wicked doctrine For preaching out of the Lords death vntill he come is a parte of Christes institution And our sauiour biddeth do this in the remembraunce of me that is with due celebration of all my benefits bestowed vpon mankind which must then be preached vnto the people And if it be not so done then Christes institution notw tstanding M. Hardings argument is flatly broken Nowe as this preaching out the Lords death is of Christes institution and yet not rehersed in this first proposition wherby this prosition is shewed false so those other things which are rehersed in it as M. Harding meaneth them are none of them of Christes institution By coÌ„secration he meaneth the pronouÌ„cing of these words this is my body which must be done as y e Masse boke straightly chargeth bothe secretely and with one breath By oblation he meaneth Christes reall body to be offred vp vnto the father By Participation he meaneth that the priest alone may take it at the Altare and no one of these is of Christes institution Nay they all are contrary vnto it So that this proposition wheron he groundeth his argumeÌ„t wanteth somewhat and therefore is not true that which it hath is altogether corrupt and therefore it containeth muche pernicious doctrine First as touching Consecration S. Augustine saith as is alleaged in the .56 vntruth y â— it is wrought verbo fidei by the worde of faith which we preache So saithe Iustinus martir that it is sanctified per verbum precationis gratiarum actionis by the word of prayer and thankes giuing Irenaeus saith quando mixtus calix fractus panis percipit verbum Dei fit Eucharistia corporis sanguinis Christi when the cuppe mingled with wine and water and the bread being broken hath the preaching of the woord of God ioyned vnto it then it is the Eucharist and this was the only Consecration .200 yeres after Christ neither any where any other mentioned except in M. Hardings Decretal Epistles which neither are of credite nor yet teach good religion This same maner of Consecration is taught vs by Cyprian Dyonisius Alexandrinus Ambrose Augustine and suche other as liued within the first .600 yeares after Christ. Although I graunt as appeareth by diuers recordes many solemnities of the Masse were farre spread through superstition yet this exacte kinde of close Consecration is muche yonger This Oblation likewise as it was then vnknowne so now it is of all Christians to be detested that a mortall man should offer vp the immortall God as I haue already shewed in the Epistle For Participation bicause maister Harding can not proue his Priuate Masse within the sixe hundreth yeares and the woord doeth enforce that it is no Participation except there be a number to take their partes I thinke it appeareth sufficiently that in a Popishe Masse they haue no manner Participation or Communion so we sée this Maior is all together false before we come at the Minor Now if we will further examine the Minor we shall finde it false also altogither without salte or sauor for thus it is in effecte
otherwise than the Euangelists reporte his words or else they could not agrée with their Masse this is a sufficient discharge of this vntruthe A good Christian before he sée better aucthoritie will beleue as the Gospell teacheth that we must first take it and eate it before it be Christes body so shall he sone sée the Idolatrie of a Popishe Masse The B. of Saris. If Christe instituted the Sacrament to the intent it should be first consecrate and then receiued of a companie c. Harding The .72 vntruthe This is a very grosse falsifying of my words Dering These are M. Hardings owne wordes in this Diuision Christ ordained y e Sacrament after Consecration done to be receiued eaten Of these words saith M. Iuel as is before alleaged if Christ. c. if I should héere aske of the indifferent Reader wherin is this grosse falsifying sure he could easily espie it But somewhat to helpe the Readers vnderstanding this it is where M. Harding hath to be receiued and eaten M. Iuell saith to be receiued of a companie if this be as it is in déede no fault whereto is this vnseasonable crying out of falsifying But if it shall séeme to be a fault then know that where M. Iuel alleageth M. Hardings owne wordes he printeth them in a distinct letter but this saying which so grieueth M. Harding is in the common letter of M. Iuels words wherby master Harding might haue wel vnderstand had he not bene disposed to wrangle that master Iuel alleaged them not as his expresse words but rather sheweth how he should haue made his saying plaine and this he proueth by authoritie of Bessarion and Gabriel Biel that after Consecration the sacrament be not receiued onely as maister Harding sayth but receiued of a company which word as it must so being expressely written master Harding did directly reason against himselfe The B. of Sarisb The .9 diuision Here vnawares he seemed to confesse that his Masse whatsoeuer substance it bear it is void both of good order and also of congruence Harding The .73 vntruth I confesse no such thing Dering You séeme to confesse it â–ª sayth M. Iuel Whether you doe or no let your words witnesse You say you are not bound to folow Christes example in order and congruence Nowe we may infer Christes order is only good therefore you folow no good order or congruence This is but a single vntruth The B. of Saris. The matter being so weightie and not yet throughly beleued c. Harding The .74 vntruth It hath bene beleued Dering When you proue this sure M. Iuel will subscribe you may make euery word in his booke as vntrue as this For he hath not one worde that soundeth towarde your religion if this may be noted for vntrue to say your Massing worshippings haue neuer bene throughly beleued you may note many moe vntruthes in this Replie For there is not one line that alloweth the Masse Read the next vntruthe The B. of Sarish The olde fathers call that the daily Sacrifice that Christ made once for all vpon the Crosse. Harding The .75 vntruthe The olde fathers call not the Sacrifice of the Crosse the daily Sacrifice Dering M. Iuel doth alleage Aug. secund Luc. serm 28. Ierom. in 1. Co. ca. 5. Germanus in Eccle. rerum theoria Irenae lib. 4. cap. 34. Tertul. aduer Iudaeos Amb. in 1. ad Tim. cap. 2. Examine the aucthorities and sée M. Hardings answere so thou shalt best iudge If I should enter into it it would require a long aunswere and nothing necessary What the Doctors wryte M. Iuel is thought to know as wel as M. Harding First reade and then iudge This is againe the .132 vntruthe And bicause we are againe fallen into mention of this Sacrifice which M. Harding said euen now hath bene throughly beleued let vs examine that vntruthe and trie if M. Harding be found true in his workmanship It hath bene throughly beleued saith he that the Priest doth offer vp to God the body and bloud of Christ vnbloudely in the remembraunce of that one bloudy Sacrifice of Christ. Reade of this in the Epistle the .31 leafe thou shalt haue it fully discussed only in this vntruth bicause the question lieth rather whether it hath bene beleued than whether the saying be true let vs a little consider of Christ him selfe his Apostles whether they haue beleued it First Christ in no one worde did giue vnto his Churche any commission of suche maner sacrifycing Christ saith often I giue vp my soule I Saâ—rifice my selfe no man doth it but I but vnto his Disciples he saith quo ego vado vos non potestis venire Whither I goe ye can not come By which wordes he taketh from them all power to Sacrifice him euen as it was afore tolde by Daniel that after Christ was once offred the Sacrifice and the Oblation should cease Not a word written wherby it may be gathered that we may offer vp Christ. And doth M. Harding thinke that in so weightie a matter as the remission of our sinnes that any thing is required of vs which is not commaunded vs It appeareth then in the time of Christ this was not beleued Did the Apostles beleue it after Christ S. Paule saith in that he died vnto sinne he died but once againe by one Oblation he made his perfite for euer and againe wher is remission of sinne there is no more sacrifice for sinne Then by S. Paule there is nowe no daily sacrifice for sinne except by Christes deathe we will that our sinnes be not forgiuen Againe S. Paule will haue vs folowe Christes example in the administration of Christes supper who teacheth vs of no Oblation for quicke and dead Againe the sacrifice cannot be made without a speciall priesthode but the Apostles doe teache vs that all suche Priesthode is abrogate If at any time the name of Oblation be mentioned in this age it is euer meant spiritually As is plaine Ro. 12. .16 Phil. 2. 1. Peter .2 for the real Sacrifice S. Peter is plain Christ hath caried our sinnes in his body vpon the woode and by his stripes we be healed and the effects of that one Sacrifice once made are purging of the sinnes of the whole world 1. Pe. 2. .3 1. Ioh. 2. 3. Ro. 4. Ephe. 1. eternall redemption Gal. 2. Ephe. 1. Rightuousnesse Ro. 3.4.8 2. Cor. 5. SaÌ„ctificatioÌ„ Eb. 10. Peace Ro. 5. Ioy of the spirite Ro. 4. Gal. 5. Newnesse of life Rom. 6. 1. Co 5. Loue of our neighboure 1. Ioh. 3. Eternall life 1. Ioh. 5. Ro. 6. then neither Christ nor his Apostles euer beleued it for the estate of the primatiue Churche how it beleued M. Harding hath nothing to say but referreth vs to the .xvij. Article of his former booke héere good Reader my labor is wel eased for séeing my Lord of Sarisburie hath answered al that matter who so wil be confirmed in that truthe he can
men héereby saith he it appeareth it was giuen to deade men not that it was thrust in their mouthes But I pray M. Harding can a thing be giuen to a dead man to eate and not thrust into his mouthe This vaine contention about words proueth M. Harding to be a very wrangler This appeareth to be true by the Canon M. Iuel recites and further we reade that it was commaunded if the persone were dying infundatur ori eius Eucharistia that the Sacrament should be poured into his mouthe Héere by the way note that in that time the people receiued the cuppe As touching the .85 vntruth M. Hardings Reioinder doth confute it selfe in the next vntruthe before he said the Councel did forbid it now he sayth it did not so whether it did or no M. Harding hath made a lie and except the distruction of thrusting it in their mouthes and putting it in there is no coloure to shadow the lie The B. of Saris. The members of these argumentes hang together like a sicke mannes dreame Harding The .86 vntruthe I make no arguments in this place Dering No good arguments in déede I graunt but yet suche as they are you encombre vs with them The B. of Sarisb Heere would M. Harding faine finde a Masse c. Harding The .87 vntruthe Heere I seke not for the Masse Dering But to séeke after your Masse is your only purpose Therfore here you speake nothing to the purpose and consequently as it was said afore your writings hang together like a sicke mannes dreame The B. of Saris. Here these words euery other christian man or woman that he hath in by the way are an ouerplus and quite from the purpose Harding The .88 vntruthe The .12 Diuision These vvordes are quite from the purpose Dering The question is whether there were priuate Masse within .600 yeare after Christ that is whether the Priests receiued alone in the congregation Maister Harding answereth sicke men and women receiued at home The controuersie lieth whether this be from the purpose The B. of Saris. For the question is moued not of any other man or woman but of the Masse and only of the Priest that saith the Masse Dering The .89 vntruthe Before there was an vntruth quoted not numbred here is one numbred and not quoted When M. Harding telleth what this vntruthe is we will answere it in the meane season we may marke the value of these vntruthes Some not worth numbring some not worthe naming but all is good inough for this Reioinder The B. of Saris. S. Ierome in his exposition is as homely calling it vilem intelligentiam traditionum Harding The .90 vntruth S. Ierome calleth not Moses lavv so Dering Héere M. Harding maketh two gesses One at S. Ieroms meaning an other at maister Iuels if either faile this vntruthe that is risen by chaunce must sal of necessitie But M. Harding héere as his whole religion is maketh very muche of outwarde shewes For except a little carnal pleasure of the outward sense there is nothing in their sinagogue but mourning and lamentation of the spirit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in no wise he will haue beggerly Ceremonies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saithe he is poore or nedy not beggerly What great ignorance in singular impudencie This exacte defining of Gréeke words may bréede some where some opinion of learning But alas héere is nothing but in déede 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beggerly wrangling without other learning or good religion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith maister Harding is not beggerly but poore Yet Aristophanes saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not pore but beggerly Nowe whether were better Grecian master Harding or Aristophanes I thinke it may be sone iudged Aristophanes wordes are these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is a begger and hath nothing he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that liues by his labor Thē by this it séemeth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is beggerly And Maister Harding that sacred interpretation that trident couent doth so muche enforce doeth it not call them egena elementa And I pray you M. Harding whether is egena poore or beggerly Surely Ouid saith de rem amor lib. 2. of Hecate and Irus why they are not beloued Nempe quod alter egēs altera pauper erat bicause Hecate was but poore Irus was a very begger but thus it is Maister Harding careth neither for Aristophanes nor yet for Ouid neither yet for Gréeke nor yet for Latine He is so ielous ouer his vntruthes that some time he speaketh he knoweth not what Againe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saithe maister Harding is rather Elements than Ceremonies In déede I graunt the word signifieth the foure elements but I trow he wil not haue S. Paule speake thus now you know God why turne you againe to the fire aire water and earth that were a beggerly sense made of the holy Ghosts wordes Then why doeth he not confesse that S. Paule meaneth the Ceremonies of the law and thus much as concerning master Hardings Gréeke As touching his religion it is very choler if in respect of Christ he may not suffer the ceremonies of the law to be called beggerly But it is no maruell though this interpretation offend them for what is it that Paule calleth beggerly Ceremonies It foloweth You obserue dayes and monthes times and yeares Hinc illae lachrimae for this cause M. Harding is so much offended such obseruations are great principles in Papistrie and to call them beggerly is to make all that Religion nothing worthe But we sée suche a one is Paule he was chosen to preache among the gentiles and God haue the glory he hath conuerted vs from al popish Idolatry For this aucthoritie of Ierom which M. Harding blameth in which he séeketh for his vntruthe read the place thou shalt finde the words or else let this be vntrue The B. of Saris. Of mingling water with wine superstition only except no man maketh any great accompt Harding The .91 vntruth The old fathers make great accompt of it Dering If M. Harding will presse vpon these wordes no man maketh any great accompt then he might haue said I and my felowes make great accompt of it therfore some body dothe it and by this meanes he might haue had many witnesses of his saying and so his vntruthe had bene the surer If he will not so force the words why doth he apply them vnto the olde fathers By this it appeareth he writeth not alwayes with the best aduisement But now he doth M. Iuel great wrong and racketh his words to that he neuer ment He speaketh of him self and other that at this day professe Gods religion saith that were it not for feare of superstition we would not greatly stick to mingle water with the wine and for proofe that M. Iuel ment thus let his boke be iudge He alleageth Cyprian and Iustine and farther saith that
doth think the people stād in the priests mouth We know he meaneth some spiritual maner of cōmunicating Be his doctrin neuer so wicked yet we do sée what is his vngodly meaning euery childe seeth this can be no vntruthe there can be but one meaning of these woords The B. of Saris. The .19 Diuision Here M. Harding interlaceth other mater of the office of wedlocke Harding The .124 vntruthe It is S. Ierome that interlaceth it it is not I. Dering Marke gentle reader this vntruthe M. Iuel saith M. Harding interlaceth it M. Harding saith no they are S. Ieromes woords He is so farre gone in straunge distinctions he hathe forgotten plaine Englishe what though the woords be S. Ieromes yet this interlacing of them in his treatise is either his owne or else some of his friendes that might helpe out with his booke The B. of Saris. Thus saith M. Harding Erasmus gathereth priuate Masse out of the scriptures Harding The .125 vntruthe I say it not Dering M. Harding can quote no vntruthe but if he either wrangle or make a lie and in this place he dothe bothe His words are these read them who will Thus dothe Erasmus gather priuate or as M. Iuel iesteth single Communion out of the Scriptures If M. Harding denye this he lieth If he say he meaneth not by the Communion the Masse he wrāgleth and reproueth his owne doing of foly For why maketh he this conclusion if it proue not his Masse So what euer he meaneth this vntruthe is a wrangling lie The B. of Saris. The .22 Diuision Maister Harding vseth a straunge kinde of Logicke he pretendeth priuate Masse and concludeth single Communion Harding The .126 vntruthe I pretende not to proue priuate Masse heere principally Dering Héere principally must helpe one vntruthe but bicause M. Iuel doeth not say principally let maister Harding put it in his bosome and then it is no vntruthe He saith nothing else for proofe of this vntruthe but falleth out with maister Iuel for rebuking the slouthfull Cardinals and Priests of Rome How be it he néede not greatly be offended For the Pope hathe prouided well for them as is already shewed Say what we will an accusation may hardly passe against a Cardinall without thrée score and foure witnesses nor against a Deacon without seuen and twenty if they wil kéepe any modesty or come not on the market hill I warrant them for other places they be safe inough The B. of Saris. The .24 Diuision Maister Harding gathereth this conclusion Harding The .127 vntruthe I gather not this conclusion Dering Maister Harding would faine shift off this argument and his poore friend maister Rastell hathe done for him in this behalfe what he can but it will not be For aunswere to this vntruth a long discourse is néedelesse For the simple can not conceiue it and the learned doe sée it well inough All maner of argumentes what so euer the propositions be they may be reduced to the first figure But this can be none otherwise reduced Therefore this is maister Hardings argument and let him neuer deny it For being in the Hypothetical fourme of propositions it may argue a will to deceiue but it can not empaire the credite of his learning This is sooner diminished by denying this argument than by making it What the argument is reade the Replie Fol. 58. The B. of Saris. These examples maister Harding hath brought to proue his Masse Harding The .128 vntruthe I brought them not to proue the Masse directly Dering In the .126 vntruthe he saide he brought not these aucthorities to proue the Masse principally nowe he saithe they proue it not directly Hadde it bene for espying he might haue made many vntruthes of this he might haue sayde they proue not the Masse immediatly orderly especially chiefly onely effectually purposedly and so made many lyes as well as principally and directly and so make of none a double lie But héere by the way we may note that maister Hardings reasons are little better than maister Iuel maketh them when he himselfe dothe so oft say they proue not his purpose The B. of Saris. That it might seeme lawfull for a priest to say priuate Masse he hath brought in example of lay men wemen sicke folke and boyes Harding The .129 vntruthe It is not so I brought them not to proue the Masse Dering Now good reader marke these thrée vntruthes and sée how thou likest them the .126 they proue not the Masse principally the .128 they proue it not directly and this vntruthe they proue it not at all Now to giue him one vntruthe more and make vp a messe sure what so euer M. Iuel say they proue it but a little and therfore M. Hardings answere is worthy little commendations The B. of Saris. The .25 Diuision He defaceth the holy Communion Harding The .130 vntruthe I deface not the Communion but the Geneuian Communion Dering M. Harding hath nowe gotten the habite he can say nothing without a distinction But all auaileth not God haue the praise Maister Iuel meaneth that Communion which is ministred as well at Geneua as in other godly places where the adulterous and Romish sacraments are banished Therefore this is no vntruth it is our open professiō That Communion which M. Harding blameth is the holy Communion of the Lords body and bloud and the effectuall representation of his deathe The B. of Sarisb Christes example in doing and commanndement to doe the same may not be taken for a shew or accident but for the effecte and substaunce of his supper Harding The .131 vntruthe Christes whole example is not of the substaunce of the Sacrament Dering Marke wel M. Iuels words and M. Hardings vntruthes and thou wilt thinke the Cocatrice doth no more infecte eche thing that she breatheth on than maister Harding dothe those words which he would confute Maister Iuel saith Christes example in doing and commaundement to do the same is of the substaunce of the supper And who wil not say that that is necessary which Christ hath bothe done and commaunded to be done Then how is this vntrue Maister Harding putteth in whole and taketh out commandement to doe the same and maketh maister Iuel say thus Christes whole example is of the substance of the supper and in déede this is false For Christ ministred after supper and sitting and with common bread and in an vsual drinking cuppe and in an house which is neither necessary nor al conuenient for our time Thus we sée what these vntruthes are altogether forced with maister Hardings lies sometime he addeth sometime he detracteth that of all these vntruthes we may wel say it stil the number is so great the substaunce cannot be good The B. of Saris. The sacrifice of the crosse is called the daily sacrifice Harding The .132 vntruthe It is not called so as you meane Dering This vntruthe is all one with the .75 and there maister Harding saith simply that the fathers call
of heauen gate Vrbanus saith that the sentence of a Bishop is greatly to be feared yea though he 〈◊〉 wrongfully and so consequently would makâ— God an vnrighteous Iudge that should ratifie an vniust sentence Such wicked doctrine these epistles doe conteine so vnlearnedly they be written so vnwisely the same words are fathered vpon diuerse men and which is a sure token that they be couÌ„terfet they are not mencioned by any auÌ„cient writers Yet saith Maister Harding these Epistles are authentical But let him say so still As that saying is vntrue so this vntruthe is impudent where he saith that Gracian doeth not witnesse that these Epistles haue ben doubted on The B. of Saris. The decretall epistles manifestly depraue and abuse the scriptures Harding The .140 vntruthe They doe not so Dering Now M. Harding is in his biasse He makes vntruthes at auenture and for want of good proofe he falls to railing This pelfe saith he may serue for your pulpit when you want better stuffe This to disproue y e decretall epistles is to minister like But thus to stand rayling when one hath no reason is to like a Louanist More modest behauiour in so meane learning would better stand with honestie This vntruth is sufficiently proued before The B. of Saris. Anacletus commaundeth that all bishops once in the yeare do visit the entrie of S. Peters church in Rome which they call limina Petri. Harding The .141 vntruth He commaundeth no such thing concerning Peters Church Dering This vntruth doeth rise vpon these wordes limina Petri whether they signified Peters church For Maister Harding graunteth that now they signifie the Church but then they signified his graue Here it were reason before we beleue him he should tell vs how long limina Petri did signifie the buriall place and when it left his graue and became the name of his church who gaue it to the graue and who toke it from it Undouted proues must be had for so incredible a matter It is a straunge case for things to lose their names and if it be done as sometime it chaunceth it is by the coÌ„sent of whole couÌ„tries regestred by diuers authors If in this case we sée like authoritie we will alow the better of M. Hardings saying Graues as it may be thought were neuer called so churches had that name long before Peters time Religiosa deorum limina saith Virgill the holy temples of the Gods Calixtus the Pope saith Ecclesiastica limina meaning the church Hereby it appeareth that limina Petri was Peters Church And Nauclerus writing of Totilas more than a thousand yeare agon saith Cum ad beati Petri limina peruenisset meaning when he came to Peters Church Now let Maister Harding shew that it signified the graue ere he require credit Yet what if it did so Is it not al one superstition to visit y e graues of godly men to visit their temples Is either of both commaunded by the Lord God In this vntruth Maister Harding sheweth little matter against Maister Iuel and lesse good diuinitie in him selfe The B. of Saris. Fabianus writeth of the comming of Nouatus into Italie And it is clere by S. Cyprian and by Eusebius that Nouatus came first into Italie in the time of Cornelius which was next after him Harding The .142 vntruth It is not cleare Dering To an Owles eyes the clere Sunne bringeth darkenesse to one that will not vnderstand there is no sentence plain When God shal open Maister Hardings eies he wil then sée better These are Cyprians wordes vnto Cornelius speaking of Nouatus A te illinc prohibituÌ„ ab ecclesia cum venisset c. Of thee he was forbidden the Church when he came c. And it foloweth with such spirite as became a Bishoppe whereby it appeareth he was then also Bishop What can be sayd more plaine It foloweth further Cum animaduertisâ—em te minis atque terroribus eorum qui venerant esse commotum c. WheÌ„ I perceiued that thou weart moued with the feares and threatnings of those that came with him Then belike Cornelius was there before And Eusebius speaketh at the same time of Cornelius and calleth him Vrbis Romae Episcopus the Bishop of the citie of Rome and this also appeareth by Sozomenus that the first conflict of Nouatus was with Cornelius Therefore Maister Harding might easely haue séene this had not eyther his eies ben anointed or he disposed to wrangle The B â–ª of Saris. Neither S. Ierome nor Gennadius nor Damasus euer made any mention either of such epistles or of any such decrees Harding The .143 vntruth Damasus maketh expresse mention of such decrees Dering This is an expresse vntruth as many other are which Maister Harding frameth Damasus doeth speake of certaine decrées which were made by these Popes and that we may easely graunt but that he mencioneth these epistles or reciteth the decrées in those wordes that is not shewed And it may easely be that he who made these epistles would gather some decrées founde in other bookes This is a small proufe againste so many manifest arguments The B. of Saris. By Soters decree it is lawfull to say Masse hauing onely two in his companie Harding The .144 vntruth This decree speaketh not of companie present but of two to make aunsvvere Dering There is belike some subtile distinction in this vntruth For as the wordes lye they are somewhat obscure Of this I am sure seing Maister Iuel saith that Soters decrée requireth only the companie of two and Maister Harding sayth it requireth two to make aunswere if it may any way be proued that they that aunswere the Priest be in his companie then this vntruth is sone discharged As touching Soters owne decrée the words are plaine that no man shall say Masse without two persoÌ„s and to take away this cauill about two to aunswere and to verifie Maister Iuels wordes the title of the decrée is this Except he haue two preseÌ„t let no Priest presume to say Masse Now what néedeth this wrangling about the aunswering if there be two present they must nedes aunswere The B. of Saris. S. Augustine and S. Ierome haue recouered that that the people of Rome euen in their time vsed to receiue the Communion together euery day Harding The .145 vntruth Saint Augustine and Saint Ierome doe not report so Dering This vntruth hath ben made now thrée times by Maister Harding It is the .83 the .133 this the third Augustine saith some receiue euery day some certaine dayes Ierome saith the like Reade the place thou shalt not be deceiued Read more of this vntruth in the places alleaged The 83. .133 vntruthes .155 vntruth The B. of Saris. This word solennia which is here vsed semeth to import a solemne companie or resort of the people And yet this Soter requiring to this action onely the companie of thre persons neuerthelesse calleth it Missarum solennia Harding The .146
dominicum vntill the next sunday Then of like they receiued euery sunday This argumeÌ„t saith M. Harding is slender a learned man will be ashamed of it And he answereth it with an other argument if thou wilt haue a paterne of a good one marke it well The wordes are saith he quando communicat when she dothe communicate Ergo she did not communicate euery sunday He that will reprehend M. Iuels argument it is reason himself should haue made a better By suche reasons we may conclude what we wil. When she did communicate therfore she did it not euery sunday Then when we go to dinner we sit downe Therfore we goe not to dinner euery day Suche prooues may be soone made Biside this M. Harding chalengeth the translation but that is not worthe answering Alias is commonly vsed for the next fallacia alia aliam trudit Nos alia ex alijs in fata vocamur Aliud ex alio malum Ex alio in aliud vicissitudo And if we say in Englishe we must tary for another terme euery wise man doth vnderstand it we must tary til the next terme Thus hear appeareth no insufficiencie in M. Iuels proofe but muche folowing M. Hardings vntruthe The B. of Saris. Likewise Socrates writeth thus in Greke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say to haue a congregation or assembly by theÌ„selues Harding The .168 There are no suche words in that place in Socrates Dering False quotation needeth no great excuse The B. of Saris. Let Missa be taken for the Masse that is for the ministration of the Sacraments Harding The .169 It doth not signify the ministration of the sacrameÌ„ts Dering Betwéene M. Stapleton and M. Harding maister Iuel can say nothing without blame The sixth vntruthe noted by maister Iuel out of maister Hardings answer is this S. Andrew said the Communion and not the Masse In the returne of this vntruth saith maister Stapleton you speake fondly the Masse and the Communion is al one Héere saith maister Iuel let the Masse be taken for the Communion That is an vntruthe saith maister Harding it can not be so taken Thus we sée these men are at a point speake maister Iuel what he wil so long as he speaketh truthe he shall not escape blame Whether Missa may signifie the Communion or no. Reade more in the .17 vntruthe The B. of Sarisb Verily it is prouided by the decree it selfe that in priuate Chappels there should be a lawfull and an ordnarie company Harding The .170 vntruthe It was not prouided Dering To make this vntruthe perfect M. Harding hath bound it with a double asseueration verily verily this is a false lie But surely surely there is little honesty to vse so muche wrangling where the matter it selfe is plaine The words of the decrée are these vt ibi missas teneat propter fatigationem familiae iusta ordinatione permittimus we permit that in due order for the wearinesse of his housholde he may haue Masse in his priuate Oratorie Now though maister Harding goe not the right way to proue his priuate Masse that goeth to séeke it out in priuate chappels yet let vs way well what this permission is The decrée saith iusta ordinatione or iusto ordine so without due order it might not be not in priuate Oratories and to haue it with order was to haue a number of Communicantes So this permission yet makes no priuate Masse Againe the decrée saith propter fatigatiouem familiae for the wearinesse of the housholde whereby it appeareth the householde must communicate For if they should not haue gon to church how should they haue ben werie of going theÌ„ was there not yet priuate Masse Thirdly it was graâ—â—ted in those parishes in which beside that householde there was legittimus ordinariusque conuentus in which there was beside a sufficient companie What neded this exception if the Priest might haue sayd Masse receiued aâ—one Litle companie will serue to make one communicate Thus we sée Maister Harding doeth no where speake more aduisedly than where he maketh most constant asseueration The B. of Saris. Vincentius writeth after Gregorius was dead Bonifacius ruled the church of Rome This Boniface obtained of the Emperour Phocas that the church of Rome should be the head of all churches and that bicause the church of Constantinople wrote it selfe by that title The next yeare after that Augustine that was called the English mens bishop died The yeare folowing Iohn the Almonar was in great fame at which time also Mahomet first spred his religion in Arabia Harding The .171 vntruth Vincentius vvriteth not so Dering If thou knowest not what wrangling is now learne Maister Harding findeth here diuerse faults The first that Bonifacius was not next Gregorie and true I think it be Sauinianus was one yere betwene and what skilleth that to priuate Masse Or why should Maister Iuel of purpose speake here vntruly It is very probable he might forget the order of the Popes that was so occupied to set out Gods religion This was not worth the noting Another fault is where Vincentius saith Augustine the firstâ— English Bishop Maister Iuel saith thus Augustine that was called the English bishop What contention aboute words is this â–ª Another fault is bi cause he alleageth not one sentâ—nce where Vincentius doeth commend the Almonars libâ—ralitie Except Maister Iuell would haue filled his booke with idle words this was nothing necessarie He searcheth 〈…〉 what I killeth it then to alleage hiâ— coâ—â—â—â—dations We reade in Plato that a 〈…〉 was euer wonâ— to make suche aâ—nswerâ—s â–ª when Cherephon asketh Polus what science Gorgias professeth Polus always is vp with a speciall commendation of it and neuer tels what it is But Socrates sayd that was nothing to the purpose there was no man dispraised it so what helpeth it when we aske of the Almonars age to alleage Vincentius commendation of him No man disprayseth him we séeke for his age we enquire not of his qualities lette the man alone The fourthe faulte is that he parteth this saying What tyme Mahomet spred his religion in Arabia in the distincte letter of the Doctours allegations This doyng helpeth Maister Iuell neuer a whit For if it be true what skilleth it who sayth it Againe if the Printer make not his letters well Maister Iuell is not to blame Here are foure faulteâ— founde without salte or â—auoure yet there is an other and that is that aboute this time Mahomet spred not his religion For he beganne sayth Maister Harding in the latter time of Heraclitus the Emperour Maister Harding is verie supersticious in computation of times or this would séeme to bée a verie â—ender 〈◊〉 Phocas began his raigne in the yeare of our Lord .604 three yeares after that Bonifacius was made Pope â–ª 607. it was foure yeares after that Iohn the Almonar shoulde saye this Masse Anno .610 within .xix. yeareâ— after in the ninetene yeare of Heraclitus
Mahomet did sprede his heresie And may we not saye of things done nighe a thousande yeares paste thaâ— thâ—y were done about one tyme if theâ— were done within nintene yeares compasse But what meaneth Maister Harding to cauill aboute times The wryters them selues doe not agrée â–ª by some computation they 〈◊〉 verie lytle Mahomet is sayde to haue begonne Anno Domini â–ª 621. so there was but nine yeares difference â–ª and may not then Maister Iuell saye they were done aboute the same tyme. Maister Harding hath little to â—aye when he stayeth at suche trifles But bicause Maister Harding taketh it in by the waye that Augustine was our firste Bishoppe reade more of that in the Epistle The B. of Saris. To breake the holie Canons Damasus sayth iâ— blasphemie against the holie goste Harding The .72 vntruth Damasus saith not so Dering This is one of Maister Hardings poore vntruthes which beside the assertion hath neither colour nor show Damasus wordes are these Taliâ— praesumptio manifeste vnum genus est blasphemâ—â—tis in spiritual factum Such presumpsion is manifestly one kinde of blasphemie againste the holie goste Yf these be not the wordes then I lie If these be the wordes then Maister Harding maketh shamelesse vntruthes And if those wordes of the decree are not plaine enough then Gracian speaketh more plainely in the title he speaketh euen as Maister Iuell doeth In spiritum sanctum blasphemant qui sacros canones violant it is blasphemie against the holy gost to breake the sacred canons Yea and the glose saith further Eo ipso videtur excommunicatus et hereticus euen by the verie face he is excommunicate and he is an heretike And Gregorie saith exors esto a nostro ministerio Let him haue no part of our ministratioÌ„ Reade these places examine M. I. saying thou canst not but maruell at Maister Hardings impudencie The B. of Saris. Soters decree commaundeth that no Priest dare minister without the companie of some other Priest Harding The .173 vntruth Soters decree is not so generall it is limitted Dering How so euer Soters decrée be limitted he were a wise man could limit al M. Hardinges wrangling The canon is plaine Summopere cauendum est â–ª And necessarium duximus we must especially prouide and we haue thought it necessarie to haue an other Priest in companie and for the better credit of this decrée Soter bringeth forth this scripture Ve soli wo be to him that is alone But saith Maister Harding this decrée was not generall and it was growne out of vse and how proueth he that it was not generall Forsoth Gregorie saith so he might as well haue sayde I say so for if Gregorie might gesse at Soters meaning .400 yeares after Soter was dead why may not M. Hard. gesse too I am sure he is as good at a gesse as euer Gregorie was and hath as good practise in them But this is straunge dealing which Maister Harding vseth to gesse so at vntruths then to aduouch them so boldly But bicause the matter shall not go all by aime here is another shift for Iohn Almonars Masse This canon saith Maister Harding was growne out of vse But this aunswere was scarce worth bringing For if the breach of those canons were blasphemie against the holy gost as Pope Damasus saith what meÌ„t Maister Hardings church to let them grow out of vse But I thinke the church was not so ouerseene peraduenture Maister Hardings saying is false peraduenture the decrée neither had any limitation nor yet was out of vse Uerely the Pope him self straightly commaundeth them with apostolicall authoritie and in no case will haue them broken vnder paine of excoÌ„munication Then sith it is so this vntruth was neither wisely numbred nor yet well prouid The B. of Saris. The councell of Laudicea saith it is not lawfull for bishops or priestes to minister the communion at home Harding The .174 vntruth The Councell saith not at home but in their houses Dering We haue heard before many new distinctions héere is yet an other as new as the best There is saith M. Harding a differeÌ„ce betwene at home and in their houses and vpon this distinction it liketh him so well he aduentureth this vntruth and the two next ensuing also But I thinke it will be long eare this distinction get any credit Sure I am in my countrey to say he is at home or he is at his house is all a matter and I dare say M. Iuel thought of no difference betwene them Seing then Maister Harding doeth see so cleare too espie ambiguities where none are Let vs sée how that decrée and this distinction may stande Let no Bishop or Priest sayth the councell minister the Communion in their houses Yet saith Maister Harding they may minister it at home So this decrée standeth thus Let no Bishop or Priest minister the Communion to any man in his house except he be at home Yf so many Bishops made so senselesse a decrée they had smal matters to think on The B. of Saris. The same order was taken at the Councell of Acon Harding The .176 vntruth It vvas not taken Dering The same order saith Maister Harding was not taken by them Yet the .58 canon of the councell of Laodicea and 80. canon of the councell of Acon are the same words and how should the same wordes not haue the same meaning No distinctioÌ„ can make this matter whole but M. Harding must néedes here say he can not tell what he sayd The B. of Saris. Likewise Pope Foelix It is not lawfull to minister the communion at home but vpon exceding great necessitie Harding The .175 vntruth Foelix speaketh neither of the Communion nor of home Dering If M. Harding did either feare God or reuerence the truth he wold not deale thus vnfaithfully Thou séest good Reader how boldly he saith Foelix nameth neither y e Communion nor home and who would not thinke that such assertions should haue some coloure or shew of truth yet sure in this there is none But marke his vntrue behauiour he alleageth for his proofe certaine wordes of Foelix in which in deede these termes are not expressed but how wickedly he doeth it let the booke be iudge It foloweth in the same decrée within lesse than fiue lines In domibus ab episcopis siue presbyteris oblationes celebrari nullatenus licet yet in houses either by Bishoppes or Priestes it is by no meanes lawefull that the Communion be celebrate Lo here is mention bothe of house and Communion yet saith Maister Harding there is mention of neither The best excuse that in this place may be hadde is to saye he was deceiued there is no exception against the words for they are plaine No distinction of oblation For the glose hath interpreted it Oblationes s. eucharistiae The sacrifice to wit of the Lordes supper Now a little further to view these vntruthes M. Harding to proue
iustifie them or were not silence the best aunswere to so great folies Let the Reader iudge The B. of Saris. If no bodie receiued then is it not true that some receiued Harding The .196 vntruth Chrisostome saith not that some receiued Dering If the last vntruthe were not worth the noting then what store hath he that is faine to number it twice Yet so it is this purposed number hath driuen M. Harding to such inconuenience The former vntruthe was Chrisostome said not some receiued with the priest this is he saith not some receiue if he would make the third that some receiue not with it had euen as good reason as either of these But let these vntruthes alone they cannot doe much harme Onely I must admonish thée that after this long ado with Maister Iuel Maister Harding for his exercise will fights little with him selfe Here he saith that Chrisostome saith not that some receiue yet out of this same place of Chrisostome alleaging these wordes Cum timore dei et fide et dilectione accedite he doeth english them thus come you vp to receiue with the feare of God c. These cōtrary sayings without one vntruth cannot be reconciled If there he wel translated it come vp to receiue then this is no vntruth If this be vntrue then that was a false translation One of these can not be denied The B. of Saris. He saith the people in the Cities were daylie taught by sermons Harding The .197 vntruthe I say not so let my booke be iudge Dering Maister Harding by like doth say and vnsay and careth not what he say These are his verie wordes Now if Chrisostome had cause to complaine of the peoples slacknesse in that great and populous citie of Antioche where the scriptures were daily expounded and preached c. And here I say as Maister Harding saith let his booke be iudge And why then is this vntruth scored vp with other Would he haue vs think that this preaching were onely in Antioche and no where else This might well be if papistrie hadde ben then in vre and preaching not regarded But to think it of that world in which good religion florished and Gods word was plentifull it is an vncharitable gessing Thus much I speake graunting Maister Hardings wordes that in Antioche the people were daily taught And then if it were so the same vse had ben likewise kept in other cities so Maister Hardings owne wordes going for true this can be no vntruth but how true those wordes are Maister Iuel doeth sufficiently proue reade his Replie he doeth alleage Chrysostomes owne wordes to proue that in Antioche they had sermons but once a wéeke and therevpon he saith further thus The B. of Saris. I note this not for that I mislike of daily preaching but for that vntruth so boldelie presumed should not passe vntouched Harding The .198 vntruth It is no vntruth Dering I am sorie to trouble the reader with aunswering to so vaine vntruthes but so it is if nothing should be said they would be thought of some force Maister Harding vseth this reason to proue his priuate Masse In Antiochie there was but a verie few to communicate sometime Therfore in the countrey belike there was priuate Masse Of this argument Maister Iuel saith thus to aduaunce the citie to abase the countrey he saith in cities they had dayly sermons but this is vntrue For in Antioche they had not so Now rise M. Hardings two vntruthes 1. I say not they were taught so in cities 2. They were taught so in Antioche Who could haue scraped out these vntruthes but he Or what force is there in them For this second vntruth where he still affirmeth they had dayly preaching in Antioche that is a very false lie and yet how impudently doth be persist in it The B. of Saris. Yet saith Maister Harding in small countrey churches either the Priest let cease the dayly sacrifice or else he receiued alone Harding The .199 vntruth I say not so This is altogether falsified Dering I pray God Maister Harding be not altogether without grace He so vnreuerently speaketh euill of authoritie so boldely denieth his owne sayings that his cause is much to be feared Marke here Maister Iuels wordes I will lay M. Hardings wordes with them then iudge whether here be any vntruth Thus he writeth of such countrey churches it must be sayd that either the sacrifice ceased c. Or that the memorie of our Lords death was oftentimes celebrated of the Priestes in the daily oblation without tarying for others to communicate with them Marke now how Maister Iuel chaungeth these wordes either the daily sacrifice ceased saith Maister Harding either the priest let cease the daily sacrifice saith Maister Iuell What is here falsified If it dyd cease the Priest ceased it For I trow the lay man might not say Masse if he would The other péece of Maister Hardings saying is this or else the memorie of our Lords death was often times celebrated of the priestes in the daily oblation without tarying for other to communicate with them These many words bicause oftedious writing Maister Iuell reporteth this or the priest receiued alone Now iudge of this place which Maister Harding saith is altogether falsified and praye that Maister Harding may once haue eies to sée The .200 vntruth Here Maister Harding noteth an vntruth in the margin that is not in the text When he telleth vs what it is we will better examine it The B. of Saris. The Masse that is so glorious can neither be founde in churches nor chappels Harding It is found both in churches and chappels Dering It is not yet found neither in church nor chappell within .600 yeares of Christ. The B. of Saris. Thus saith Chrysostome if thou stand by and not receiue thou art malapert thou art shamelesse thou art impudēt 2. thine eies be vnworthie the sight herof vnworthie be thine eares 3. O thou wilt say I am vnworthie to be partaker of the holie mysteries then art thou vnworthie to be partaker of the praiers 4. Thou maist no more stay here than an heathen that ueuer was christened Harding The .202 vntruthe Chysostome doeth not say these vvordes The .203 vntruthe Chrysostome saith not then an heathen vnchristened Dering Sure good Reader the numbring of these vntruthes is verie straunge here is one Chrysostome saith not these wordes an other he saith not then an heathen c. I would faine know here in the first vntruth what Maister Harding meaneth by these words If he meane the whole sentence why maketh he an other truth If he meane all the sentence going before this latter vntruth why doeth he not make of it thrée seuerall vntruthes For it is distinguished into thrée seuerall sentences or if he think but one of those sentences is false why doeth he not tell vs which it is Certaine it is Maister Harding did know that these former partes of this allegation were all true
is in vaine but that the oblation is in vaine making a great difference betwene his Masse and oblation But this matter doth not so well thriue as Maister Harding wéeneth his Masse and oblation must néedes be both one else how could his Masse be saide to be a sacrifice propitiatorie for quick and dead sith the sacrifice can onely be ment by the oblation But let vs take Maister Hardings words as they are The oblatioÌ„ saith he is in vaine to the people that will not come Here he speaketh not onely against his companions but against the Pope and against his Masse booke The decrée saith the oblation is good that is offred for Iudah and Ierusalem that is for them that coÌ„fesse the Lord. And the masse booke saith Hanc oblationem offerimus pro ecclesia tua sancta catholica We offer this oblation for the whole catholike church Yet saith Maister Harding this oblation is in vaine If he him selfe will thus speake against Pope and portus he may peraduenture crack his Masse ere he be ware But it is well We take that Maister Harding graunteth except the people receiue the celebration or sacrifice made by y e priest is in vaine so his priuate Masse is quitâ— condemned The B. of Saris. If Maister Harding will stand vnto the authoritie of Chrysostome let him not dissemble but speake plaine vnto the people as Chrysostom spake Let him say to theÌ„ that come to heare his masse if ye receiue not ye are shamelesse ye are impudent you are not worthie to be partakers of the common prayers Depart you from the Church ye haue no more place here than Turks and heathens your eyes be vnworthy to see these things vnworthy be your eares our Masses can not profite you they are not meritorious for you they please not God they prouoke his anger they are all in vaine This is Chrysostomes sense and plaine meaning Harding The .207 vntruthe These are not his words The .208 vntruthe Nor his meaning Dering Héere I must craue of the indifferent Reader to note this manner of quoting vntruthes Of these very words of Chrysostome before he made two vntruthes the .202 and .203 Here of them all he maketh but one Yet if there be but one nowe there was but one afore and so one vntruthe is made thrée Againe before he made no vntruth as touching the meaning now he maketh one Yet if there be one now there was one afore so of two vntruthes which is very vnlike he will nuÌ„ber but one againe in the .204 vntruthe he maketh but one vntruthe bothe of the words and meaning héere seuerally he maketh one of either this diuersitie of gathering must néedes shewe a matter of little waight Now as touching these two vntruthes and the wordes héere saide of maister Iuel he neither saith nor meaneth that they are al in Chrysostome But alleaging certaine as is shewed in the .202 vntruth he héere addeth more For example to shew the Massing priestes how they should speake vnto the people What troweth maister Harding to persuade the people that maister Iuel maketh Chrysostome to speake of their Masses Héere in these words the Masse is plainely named yet y e good father did neuer know what suche spirituall whoredomes did meane And yet héere M. Harding to cary away the readers vnderstanding in his railing spirite he speaketh great blasphemies against Gods electe and calleth him the forerunner of Antichrist whome God hath appointed one to be an ouer runner of the Romish Idolatries But God be praised in all his saints The B. of Saris. Now let vs examine this inuincible argument wherwith euery childe as Maister Harding saith is able to proue the priuate Masse Harding The .209 vntruthe I say not so let my booke be iudge Dering These are his woords of this most euident place of Chrysostome euery childe is able to make an inuincible argument against master Iuel for the priuate Masse these are his very wâ—ords I say as he saith let the booke be iudge and he that is found a lier let him haue the blame The B. of Saris. This is M. Hardings argument The sacrifice in Chrysostomes time was daily offred But many times none came to Communicate Ergo there was priuate Masse Heere the Maior is apparant false the Minor is proued at aduenture Harding The .210 vntruthe The Maior is true The .211 vntruthe The Minor is well proued Dering In the .133 vntruthe maister Iuel proued by S. Augustine â–ª that in some place the people receiued euery day there maister Harding dothe note that for vntrue héere maister Iuel proueth by S. Augustine that in some place they receiued not euerye day Hâ—ere likewise maister Harding noteth this for vntrue And yet howe can bothe these be vntrue More circumspect behauioure in so false dealing hadde bene necessary Now as touching bothe these sayings of maister Iuel that somewhere the people did receiue euery day somewhere only on certaine dayes let S. Augustines woordes be witnesses Thus he wryteth The Sacrament of the body of Christ is receiued somewhere euery day alicubi certis interâ—allis dierum somewhere on certaine dayes only As long as this aucthoritie may stande for good maister Iuels saying hath a good warrant And though it were not good yet maister Hardings two vntruthes must néedes one ouerthrow an other As touching this other vntruthe that none came to receiue with the priest sée whether it be proued at aduenture or no. Thus maister Harding saith if there were but fewe to Communicate in that great and famous Churche of Antioche what may be thought of a thousand lesser churches c. Nowe whether this proofe be at all aduentures and a bare gesse it is soone iudged Concerning Chrysostomes aucthority here read the Replie The B. of Saris. As for the Maior it is plaine by the .6 councell of Constantinople by S. Augustine vpon S. Iohn by S. Basil ad Caesariam patritiam by the Epistle of the councel of Alexandria in defence of Macarius and by the councell of Laodicea and by sundry other aucthorities to that purpose before alâ—eaged that the sacrifice was not daily offred Harding The .212 vntruthe S. Augustine hath the contrary Dering If S. August speake contraries he is sure the more to blame but who séeth not by S. Augustines plaine woordes in this former vntruthe alleaged that where he saith the sacrifice is daily offred it is to be ment of certaine places not of all This vntruthe is directly contrary to the 83.133.14-5.156 vntruthes But what skilleth that where M. Harding may be beleued Héere note that all these other aucthorities are coÌ„trolled and yet notwithstaÌ„ding M. Harding presumeth vpoÌ„ his vntruths Sure the number was appointed too large that coulde not be made vp without suche foule shifts The B. of Sarisb Maister Harding saw that this is but a slender proofe Chrysostome ministred euery day therfore he receiued alone Harding The .213 vntruth Maister Harding