669. for the priuate masse fol. 675. for an halfe communion Dureus resp Whitak rat 6. fol. 301. Ex Euseb eccles hist lib. 6. c. 44 in Greeke 36. in Latine and 43. in English Eckius enchir loc comm c. 15 fol. 156. If the Communion that is a companie receiueing together bee in that respect better then the priuate masse as M Harding himselfe saith where the Priest receaueth all the people gazing on and receaueing nothing which is the point which M Iewell blamed and the priuate masse be but a matter of small waight and a fact the Priests negligence causing the peoples slacknesse For shame leaue of to write in defence of it as also to make that a true Communion spiritual receauing whē the People stand by receaue nothing as both D. Harding M. Dormā doe Corporally the Preist spiritually the people saith he Then say I the people that receiue spiritually receiue the better for to receiue the flesh and bloud of Christ corporally they assigne to the wicked and reprobate such as Iudas spiritually they assigne only to the elect and godly But how are both these articles of private masse and halfe communion proued against B. Iuell and vs by one example of what a silly boy did giue to a sicke mā at his house in a case of necessity The boy because the Priest was sicke brought from him a little of the sacrament and gaue it the old man Do not these men lacke the practise of the Church for their warrant that wil obtrude such examples The story is to be read in Eusebius in Greeke Latine and English and therfore there can be no mystery in it except men desire to be abused What saith Eckius touching praier vnto Saints departed which doctrine is of great moment in the church of Rome Explicitè non est praecepta sanctorum invocatio in sacris literis The invocation of Saints departed is not expressed in the holy scriptures This inuocatiō of Saints cannot be proued net her by the old Testamēt nor by the newe Not in the old Testament saith he for the Iews were prone to Idololatry and vnder the Gospel it was not commanded least the Gētiles that were converted and beleeued should thinke they should bee brought againe to the worship of Earthly Gods Further saith he if the Apostles Evangelists had taught the Saints had bin to haue bin worshipped it would haue argued great arrogancy in thē as if they had sought renowne after death therfore the Apostles would not by the expresse scripture teach the calling vpon Saints Thus far Eckius Sessio 25. de inuocat The counsel of Trent doth not foūd it in the scriptures but bringeth it in by the window an other way by custome consent of Fathers which they do but pretend neither because they would not let go al their hold at once Saunders reakoneth this amongst other things to be the words of God De visib monarc l. 1. fol 12 Hoker Ecclespoll 1. par 13. The benefit of hauing diuines lawes written not his word written but his worde vnwritten If we in this age of the world be to trust to an vnwritten word I demaund to whom that was deliuered to be kept and preserued In the first age of the world as God gaue Laws to our Fathers without writing so hee gaue them memories which serued in steede of books the defects of that kinde of teaching being knowne vnto him he relieued it by often iterating of one thing by putting thē in minde of onething often After this grew the vse of writing as meanes more durable to preserue the laws of God from oblivion and corruption as the liues of men grew the more to be shortned therfore is Moses said to write al the words of God and vnto the Evangelist S. Iohn expresse Charge is giuen Scribe Exod. 24 4. Apoc. 1.11 14.13 Ioh. 20.30.31 write these things Againe Many other signes also did Iesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this booke but these things are written that yee might beleeue that Iesus is that Christ that Son of God So that if now after so much writing the ceasing of God to speake to the worlde but by writing we shal divert from his written worde to his vnwritten it wil be to turne the truth of God into a lie and to follow fables in steed of truth If this part of the doctrine of the Church of Rome in praying to Saints be without al warrāt of holy scripture as Eckius and Saunders do allow how much to blame are they Dureus Conf. Whi rat 1. f. 44 Cope dial 3. fol. 332. to the same purpose who would drawe a prescript rule from Christs owne words on the crosse when he cried Eli Eli My God my God why hast thou forsaken me saying that it was familiar to the faithful Iews to pray vnto Saints because they thought that Christ had called on Elias Is it not a miserable glosse that eateth out the bowels of the text If it were an vsual thing with the Iews to pray vnto Saints how said Eckius that the Iewes had it not in vse because they were prone to idololatry and to whom should they pray The fathers of the old testament saith he also were in Limbo in hel The Iews that said Christ called on Elias did deride mocke him so do the Papists abuse vs Matth. 27.47 that alleadge the holy scriptures to such purposes But into how many shapes wil they turne this one parcel of scripture and make it serue more waies thā one Saunders alleadgeth it for the service in an vnknowne tongue because the Iews seemed to mistake Christ De visib mon. l. 7. fo 679. for the seruice in an vnknowne tongue How neere that speech of Christ on the crosse commeth either in favour of praying to Saints or to the service in an vnknown tongue I wil not sticke even now to make themselues iudges The Doctrine of pardons hath brought no smal treasure to the church of Rome yet Alphonsus Alphons a Castro l. 8. verb. indulg Pardōs haue no ground either in antiquity or in the scriptures Polid. Virg. de invent rerum li. 8. c. 1. f. 614. reverēceth it but for new Against the error of denying pardons saith he I wil contend in few words because amongst al the things whereof we dispute in this work there is none that the holy scriptures haue lesse mentioned then pardons and wherof the ancient writers haue lesse spoken This report of Alphonsus doth Polidore Virgill confirme out of Fisher who was bishop of Rochester in these words No Divine doth at al doubt saith he whether there be purgatory but yet among the ancient fathers there is no mention at al of it or very seldome yea euen the Greekes to this day beleeue it not for so long as there was no care for purgatory nemo quaesivit indulgentias no
THE FAL OF BABEL By the confusion of tongues directly proving against the Papists of this and former ages that a view of their writings and bookes being taken it cannot be discerned by any man living what they would say or how be vnderstoode in the question of the sacrifice of the Masse the Reall presence or transubstantiation but in explaning their mindes they fall vpon such termes as the Protestants vse and allow FVRTHER In the question of the Popes supremacy is shewed how they abuse an authority of the auncient father St. Cyprian A Canon of the 1. Niceene counsell And the Ecclesiasticall historie of Socrates and Sozomen And lastly is set downe a briefe of the succession of Popes in the sea of Rome for these 1600. yeeres togither what diversity there is in their accompt what heresies schismes and intrusions there hath bin in that sea delivered in opposition against their tables wherewith now adaies they are very busie and other things discovered against them By IOHN PANKE 2. Sam. 3.1 There was long warre betweene the house of Saul and the house of David but David waxed stronger and the house of Saul waxed weaker Printed at Oxford by Ioseph Barnes 1608. TO THE RIGHT VVORSHIPFVLL and Reuerend in Christ M. D. A. the heads of Colledges and companies of students in the Vniuersitie of Oxford And their Colleagues and associates against the common aduersarie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge and all other publike defenders of the true christian religion within this his Maiesties Realme of great Brittaine Iohn Pancke wisheth grace and peace from God the Father and from our Lord Iesus Christ I Haue read it reported Reuerend Fathers and Brethren Reyn in the beeginning of his 6. conclusions And also in his apology of them Quid opus est vt properes periculum suscipere condemnationis loqueÌ„do cum taceÌ„do possis esse tutior Ambro. offic l. 1. c. 2. that it was the fortune of Aulus Albinus to bee reprehended by Cato the censor because being a Romane and writing his historie in Greeke he did seeme to aske pardoÌ„ if he did therin amisse wheÌ„ with lesse adventure hee might haue kept himselfe from all fault in not medling with such a businesse at all My case at this time is euen as his in this matter taken in hand I would both adventure it will also praie your pardons if I haue either done amisse in medling with a businesse that beelongeth to right approued schollers or haue not proceeded so soundly against the aduersaries as the waight of these questions doth requier My defence in both cases is by waie of excuse for seeing I haue for some fewe yeares past bin conuersaÌ„t in al your writings that J could harken out to be printed against the adversaries to whom rather shoulde J giue an account then vnto you either of the profit I haue made by them to ouerthrowe the contrarie part or incite you to continue yet your further labours to the building vp of the spirituall house of the Lord and better accomplish all could doe that by this kinde of dedication Illustres praestantes viri discipulorumcer taminibus noÌ„minus quaÌ„ suis vincunt Amb. offic l. 1. c 41. Si pro otioso verbo reddemus rationem videamus ne reddamus pro otioso si entiâ— Amb. offic l. 1. c. 3. The truth hath spokeÌ„ it we shall render an account for euerie idle word and so shal we for our idle silence J freely confesse vnto you al that next the booke of God your volumes and treatises haue especially tied mee at home when some other my companions haue bin walking abroad The holy truth which in your consciences you knowe you doe vphold is the waightiest assurance of well doing that maie bee The consent of nations Churches abroad is a great motiue to pricke you forward but when by the particular travel of any on man it may also appeare that hauing had your writings tried by the CanoÌ„ of holie scripture and some antiquitie else hauing it found that there is a true Diapason concord in al your voices in arguing the truth of the Lords cause this to bee testified by others that are of the Laitie as children ioining with you Fathers wil J suppose bee noe smal ioie and gladnesse vnto you Macte virtute Go forward J beeseech you with good courage the aduersarie is insoleÌ„t but verie weake Lactant instit lib. 5. c. 20. fol. 465. iam profecto ab amculis quas contemnunt à pueris nostratibus error illocum ac stultitiae irridetur euen of old wiues and yong children which they most contemne is their verie religion derided Illa enim religio muta est non tantuÌ„ quia mutoâ—um est sed quia titus eius in manu digitis estnoÌ„ in corde aut lingua sicut nostra ibid. l 4. c. 3. fol. 303. They can tel now as wel as their teachers that their religion is dumbe as done vnto stockes and blockes and also is idle as beeing placed in the hande and fingers scarcelie comminge into the tongue but neuer into the heart as the auncient father Lactantius saith by the Gentiles which aptly sheweth the vanitie of theirs also for by euens ods they make their praiers long or short Their Beads Iuell Nolo nuÌ„c aut Oxonienses CaÌ„tabrigiensibus aut Cantabrigienses Oxoniensibus anteponere vtrosque constat ingenio eruditione vaâ—uisse Sic. Melc Canus de Graecis Latinis l. 7. fo 231 a. not the one before the other but either of them before the best in the world Lilly Fulke Whita L. B. Winchest Reynoldes Besides lib. de Rom. Ecclesiae Idolol Apolog Thesium Humphrey Erat enim ingenio facili co pioso suavi quae sermonis maxima virtus aperto vt discernere nequeas vtrum ne ornatior in eloquendo an faciliot in explicando an potentior in persuadendo fuerit Lac. de Cyp. lib. de iustitia c. 1. To incite you to this holy conflict I wil cal to your remembrances the paines of very worthy men both aliue and dead Let it bee the honor of Bishop Iuell once bishop of Sarum that his reply Apology stand safe without iust reprehension when his direct adversary D. Harding reioined but to one of 27. articles Stapleton returned but to 4. those so meanly cloathed that himselfe might haue bin ashamed not answering the 10. part of the bishops text leauing out whole sheetes to which he hath not said a word Dorman delt also against the Bishop in 4. articles too but too too porely Propose to your sights the industrious toiles of D. Fulke and VVhitakers the one for his answere to the Rhemish testament as also his defence of our translatioÌ„s against Gregory Martin his answere to Bristow Allen and others The other for his paines against Champion Stapleton Dureus Bellarmine But in this are the liuing to be preferred before the deade in that it hath
even vvith the same vvorship that the trinitie should be worshiped vvith The learned amongst them knowe that this vvhich I saie is true Leaue I beseech you your old and vvorneout excuses which hetherto some of you haue bin accustomed to make in defence of the religion you are in liking with which are so did wee learne so did our ancients teach they were wise enough they knewe what they did and what was best and so spoile your selues of iudgment and banish reason only to rest on other mens errors But if you wil needs go to Fathers ancients go to theÌ„ of 1500. 1400. 1300. 1200. 1000. yeares since not to theÌ„ which lived in the Tyranny of ignorance for 400. 300. or 200. yeares ago wheÌ„ Sathan had covered the greatest Monarkies in darknes and ignorance some few sparkles here and there arising being with the fogge mist that then spread it selfe soone put out Policy is the best point that their religioÌ„ ever thriued by That this is true I wil lay a briefe of the method which your masters vse and you know is true in propagating their religion First they take away al vse of reading the holy scriptures from the Laity whom they teach instruct Next they barre them from al conference or society with any of whom they might learne to vnderstand what they are taught whether agreeable to Gods word or not 2 They take from them al the Protestants books 3 and damne them to the pit of hel not suffering them to read one of them I demand how far either a Turke or Iew or any other miscreant might preuaile against any poore seduced soule that is in their custody if they take them time enough with these meanes Those they vse touching the Ignoraunt for their schollers they haue other First they shall haue the ancient Fathers Doctors as they wil please to deliver them 4 by written notes of their owne gathering 5 if they chance to admit them to the prints they shal then haue such prints as they haue newly set for the purpose the ancient copies being altered Then they haue a devise to shew them counterfait writings of the Fathers and Doctors such as they never wrote insteed of true and therefore learned and vnlearned 6 scholler or not scholler had need take heed to them in that And wheÌ„ they are hardly pursued out comes the Index expurgatorius in maÌ„ner of a note booke to tell the younger sort when wherein they shall refuse any author that maketh against the doctrine of the church of Rome 7 And adde vnto this practise such an opinion as this This is related more at larg in the booke it selfe where speciall mention is made of it The Church of Rome cannot erre whatsoever it decree and the Pope of Rome is not to be accused whatsoever be doth And thus they seduce both one sort and other If ever there were slauery or tyranny this is it the captivitie of the soule being ten thousand times more greate more grievous than that of the body God hath called you vnto liberty not to be servants of sin 8 but to serue erroneous opinions is worse than to beare tyrannous exactions 9 Take froÌ„ them these weapons where with they chiefly fight Gal. 5. 1. Coâ—inth 7. Iudg. 15. and you shal haue them as Sampson without his haire you may take them and chaine them where you list Pardon me I desire you if I be large the earnestnesse of my minde towards you hath caused it because I see the waies that deceiue you where the apprehension of the minde is great words to opeÌ„ it wil be many vincil officium linguae sceleris magnitude Their practises against the truth passe the quicknesse of my pen to describe and therfore every warning should worke some warinesse Touching my person it skilleth not in this who I am I hope you wil consider what is spoken Hoker pref to his 5. booke of Eccles polic Quaeso à vobis vt eadem oratio aequa aeque vale at I'anormitanus Laur. Humfr. cont Camp ratio p. 2. fol. 381 456. spiritus sanctus non alligatur ordini vel gradui vel â—athredae c. Quare nec ex munero homi num nec ex personarum celsitate fed ex causae veritate omnia sunt aestimaÌ„da Act. 20 The cheife that haue written in the controuer sies a litle before Queene Elis raigne ever since and not who it is that speaketh but let the same reason prevaile whether from a young man or an old whether from a clerke or a lay man There was a great man of your Church that once saide There was more heed to be given to a lay man bringing scripture than to the Pope and generall counsell And as great a man amongst vs hath said The holy Ghost is not tyed to any Order degree or chaire but bloweth where he will neither as S. Ierome saith we must not iudge as Pithogoras schollers according to what the teacher shall say but the strength of that which is taught by whomsoever must be waighed If the truth in these cases had bin to be sought for at the hands of any sort of meÌ„ Popes or Cardinals or touching the place Rome Paris or Rhemes or any other seat I am well assured S. Paule when he tooke his leaue from those of Ephesus would not haue omitted to haue named any man or place to haue resorted vnto he only said thus Now bretheren I commend you to God vnto the word of his grace which is able to build further and to giue you an inheritance amongst all them that are sanctified To draw to an end Because you shal as plainly see that I can direct you where you shal finde the true religion taught and mainetained according to the holy scriptures of God as wel as I haue noted vnto you the false boulstred out take into your hands those two treatises of D. Cranmers of the Sacrament Bishop Hoopers and Bishop Ridlies of the same argument Bishop Iuels Reply defence of the Apology against Harding D. Nowell against Dorman D. Fulkes answere to the Rhemists testament D. Humphrey against Campian D. Whitakers against Campian and Dureus Willets Synopsis and Tetrastilon D. Reinolds confetence with Hart and against Bellarmine and defence of his theses D. Sutcline against Bellarmine ofteÌ„ My Lord of Winchesters Dialogues against the Iesuits D. Abbot against Hil or any other treatises of these against your side you shal see the truth of Gods holy worde in seuerall parts discussed in so wonderfull an harmony that though some of them liue now and some be gone they speak al one language they all pronounce Shibboleth plainly Iud. 12.6 it being but one truth which they speake In their volumes and writings be many and insinite quotations both of scriptures fathers Doctors Councels histories laws decrees both Greeke and Latine pervse them view them single them out in
sinketh not into my head that men otherwise learned and verie religious should so wilfully hood wincke themselues against the truth as in this last declaration it seemeth you meane they doe for besides their owne words and few of their bookes haue I yet seene in iustification of themselues I see a famous Catholike Church of theires I meane Rome who hath bin and yet is renowned for succession of Bishops This hath bin and yet is maketh all the error Iulius Caesar was once faithful to the Romans but affecting Soue ranitie he cōtinued not so so the Church of Rome was agreat church amongst the rest But now it beareth witnes of it selfe as Simon Magus said That hee was some great mā Act 8.9 Their vsual tables in writing which they giue to their freinds containing a Catalogue of the Bish of Rome and continuance of Apostolike doctrine vvhose gouernor head is the Pope vvho keepeth it in the same integritie and soundnesse of doctrine that S. Peter our Lords cheife Apostle vvhose successor hee is did vvhen hee sate and ruled there as he doth now I tell you I haue a table of the Bishops of Rome from S. Peter to Climens the eight vvho latly deceased as the speech was You cannot shew me the like of any Church in the world but of that Al churches saue a fewe of late yeeares haue ever acknowledged that Church for the mother and head of them al and whatsoeuer was amisse vvas thither referred and determined therfore if you will oppose your selfe against them or their religion you had need bringe sound arguments or else they wil bee quickly confuted Rom. See now you require that of mee already vvhich you cannot performe your selfe To enterinto the discussing of the points of doctrine vvhich concerne either side you haue nether abilitie nor iudgment by reason you are but newly begun to be tutered by them And then if I shoulde of my selfe discourse of them vnto you you vvould in the end say of my labour therin as a merrie fellow in Wilteshire said of an hare in a course with his dogge when my dogge was let slip at the hare quoth he she went forth right was before my dogge some foure acres bredth But my dogge fetcht her and gaue her a turne and awaie she goes againe then he gaue her another and did beat her so that she had many turnes wrenches but in the end quoth he the hare went awaie and had nether turne nor wrench so if I should shew vnto you the vnsoūdnes of the doctrine of the church of Rome from scriptures Fathers Counsells Doctors yea of the intrusions of Bishops into that sea which you from them call succession you would giue me the hearing how soever I did beat the hare in giuing her manie wrentches turnes yet you would saie she went from me in the end and had nether turne nor wrentch I am not ignorant in what painted Cyphers In the 1. petition to his Maiestie Adde fidem dictis Ovid. Medea Ias the Catholikes did of late a greable to your report of them set forth their religion calling it venerable for antiquitie maiesticall for amplitude constant for continuance irreprehensible for doctrine inducing to all kind of vertue and pietie dissuading from all sin wickednesse A religiō beloued by all pri◅tiue Pastors established by all Oecumenicall counsells vpheld by al ancio◅ doctors maintained by the first and most Christian Emperours recorded almost alone in all Ecclesiasticall histories sealed with the blood of millions of Martyres adorned with the vertues of so manie confessors beautified with the paritie of thousands of Virgins so conformable to naturall sence and reason and finally so agreable to be sacred text of Gods word and Gospell Of which speech of theirs I will saie noe otherwise nowe Cor. Tac. hist l. 2. c. 27. then Tacitus doth of Vitellius the Emperour of Rome in these words The daie following saith he as though he had spoken before the Senate and people of a strange Citty he made a glorious speech of himselfe extolling his owne industriousnesse and temperancie when as they vvhich hard him of their owne knowledge vvere witnesses of his lewd actions al Italy besides through which he marched for drowsinesse and riot notoriously infamous Two pillars wherof the Papists must rest Whitak cont Dureum l 9. de Sophia There are two notable pillars which vphold the Church of Rome in al her buildings vnknowen to you yet but herafter better may be against which if you leane they wil surely deceaue you on is The Church of Rome cannot erre whatsoeuer it teacheth the other The Bishop of Rome ought not to bee accused what soeuer he doe Vpon such pillars as these they maie reate what vvorke they wil and so they doe but it fareth with thē as it was wont to the false Prophets One buildeth vp an muddy wall Exech 13.10 and others dawbe it over with a rotten plaister But because it hath pleased God to bringe vs againe thus luckely to gether I wil bend our conference for this time to some good purpose that you goe not altogether awaie without profite Will you graunt mee but so much as common humanitie will afford anie man or the meanest courtesie of freindes allowe Tub. I wil alowe you any reasonable graunt whereof if you doubt you doe me wronge it may be you deeme me so affectioned that I wil neither heare nor read anie thinge aganst my humor I would not haue you so thinke of me that were more beast like to follow the first of the heard then according to anie Christian course and if anie should wish me to it I should the sooner mistract them and grow the wearier of them Rom. You say well and my request shal be yet more reasonable then you would deeme it to be you are you saie vnable to dispute of the points of doctrine betweene them vs vntil you be further instructed in them Tub. I confesse it I haue only hetherto heard their our report without either their proofes or your acceptions Rom. Why then this I saie which you or anie man being neuer so vnlearned maie vnderstand if all their points of their religion be good sound Catholike according to Scriptures Fathers Counsells Doctors histories viz. their Masse their sacrifice their reall presence their meritinge of heauen their free wil in good and holy things their praying to Saints their seruice in an vnknowen tongue The points in con rouersie betweene vs. the forbidding of the lave people to read the Scriptures in their vulgar tongue The Bishop of Romes authoritie worshiping of Images and a number of questions else What need then is there for the Doctors of that side such as haue written in defence proofe of their cause Harding Dorman Saunders Stapleton Allen Cope Bellarmine Rhemists Dureus and manie others to misaleadg any Doctor Counsell Historie or Father either by corrupting of
the text The Doctors that defeÌ„d theÌ„ The manner of handling them or quoting of places not to be found to vse any vaine and foolish shifts in answere such as any may perceaue to bee feeble weake to deliuer their mindes so doubtfully that an English man in the English tongue shal not vnderstand vvhat they meane to be so contrarie and opposite on to an other and many times each froÌ„ himselfe to dispute for that which they confesse is not so ancient nor so good as the contrary It is an olde saying a rich man need not bee a theife and a good cause at their handes cannot bee lost for lack of pleading only that which wanteth is the truth of the cause they haue bin fashioÌ„ing of it these many yeares euer anon there comme some experter masters than formerly vvith some fresher vernish but noe better prose some tast of this dealing I gaue the readers be-but a more larger euidence and veiw shal follow after in diuers of the points mentioned that all the vvorld shal see confesse that the popish religion at this day taught and professed by the verie confused handling of it is nothinge lesse then accient catholike and true which shal be so faithfully collected that they shal not be denied to be their owne and so plaine for vnderstanding Peruium cunctis iter Sence in Oct. art 2. that although you concâ—aue little or nothing of the questions theÌ„selues yet you shall perceaue the weaknesse of their side by the manner of laying downe their proofes and defences Tub. When I shal see that performed substaÌ„tially which you haue here promised confidently I wil surly stay my haÌ„d from subscribing my harte from consenting to anie such doctrine as shal stand vpon such proofes Rom. By the grace of God I wil not faile to shew it you you shal not take any thing vpon report you shall see and read their owne bookes and discourses themselues and since now you are the man vnto vvhose conscience I appeale for your consent to our side let me shew you the dutie of a reader in a case of controuersie betweene two noe otherwise then D. Harding in his Reioynder against B. Iuell touching them both doth lay it down to you and me and al men else To the reader The dutie of a reader Consider I require thee saith he what is thy duty Remember thou be not partiall towards either of our persons Let all affection be laide aside Let your conscience be the rule of both loue hatred Let neither hope nor feare haue place in your hart to win or loose by either of our fortunes yea if you can so conceaue let our bookes represent vnto thee not Iuell Harding but two men Iohn Thomas departed this worlde to noe man liuing knowen to haue liued And when you haue left of all affection touching our persons then study to discharge thy minde of all blind parciality towards both our doctrines abandoning all humane likings and carnall phantasies with a single eie simple hart behold imbrace what is good true only for loue of God and for the truthes sake Being thus desposed commend your selfe vnto God with praier beseeching him to lighten your vnderstanding by his holie spirit to lead you vnto the truth This done with an humble hart read both our Treatises and iudg yet this much I saie in case of necessitie not to all in generall but to certaine such as by other meanes will not bee induced to consider of the truth The reply is that which B. Iuell wrot against him for otherwise I acknowledge that both the REPLY and all other hereticall bookes by order of the Church without speciall licence bee vnlawfull to be read and are vtter he forbidden to bee read or kept vnder paine of excoÌ„municatioÌ„ Remember I saie the part of a iudge is to iudge as the Lawyers speake secundum allegata probata that is to saie as things be alleadged proued Beware everie thing is not proued for which authorities bee alleadged Nota bene neither is all made good which by probable arguments seemeth to be concluded Allegations must be true plaine simple neither weakned by taking awaie nor strengthened by putting to of wordes nor wrested from the sence they beare in the writer else they bewraie the feeblenesse of the cause for proofe whereof they be alleadged also the great vntruth of theÌ„ that for furtherance of their purpose abuseth them if they haue corrupted their witnesses or brought in false witnesses if they haue vntruly reported their Doctors shamfully falsified their sayings theÌ„ ought you to giue sentence against them then is their honestie stained then is their credit defaced and then is their challenge quiet dashed Thus farr D. Harding Mat. 27.24 And Pilate tooke water and washed his handes before the multitude saying I am innocent of the bloud of this iust man euen so cleare is M. Hardinge and his fellowes froÌ„ misreporting the Doctors or falsifying their sayings or in not committing any thing wherof they would seeme to be most free as anon shal appeare Tub. Me thinketh by these words of D. Harding by your request made before vnto me that both parties on both sides require nothing more then that al their readers should ponder waighe the allegations proofes both of the one side other and then iudge of the truth accordingly but I feare he meaneth nothing less because he saith that both the REPLY al other hereticall books by order of the church without speciall licence bee vnlawfull to bee read or kept By hereticall bookes hee meaneth the protestants writings which inference abridgeth the libertie of reading consequeÌ„tly of iudging by any indifferent way or meane to come to the knowledge of the truth For the heathen Poet could deliuer a good speech to that purpose by the very light of naturall discourse Qui statuit aliquid parte inauditâ alterâ Aequum licet statuerit haud aquus fuit Senec in Med Act. 2. He that not hearing either part ponounceth his decree Vnrighteous maÌ„ accounted is though right his sentence be Rom. I did includ so much in mine owne speech vnto you before but that perhaps you wil sooner approue of your owne obseruation then my collection And to tel you truly which you shal certainty find by conuersing more with theÌ„ they doe not suffer the common laitie amongst them to see or read or heare any thinge without speciall licence so much and such parcells as it shal please them But those that they knowe are so stiffe and obstinate that nothing will a waken their vnderstanding perhapps they will giue some small libertie of reading the better to colour their denial to others And this doe they not only touching the vse or reading either of the holy scriptures or of the protestants bookes Hard cont Iuell art 2. fol. 56. In
Christ which is in the sacrament If Bellarmine abridge Caietane of the word spirituallie he leaueth him never an other to expresse his minde by Now to drawe towards an end in this point Trent counsel Caietane Bellarmine Allen. Hardinge Gardiner let vs laie in breefe what wee vnfolded more largly Our Lord and sauiour Iesus Christ God man is truly really substantially contained vnder the forme and shew of bread and wine He is transferred from the hande to the mouth we fasten our teeth into his flesh and from thence he goeth into the stomacke and is mingled with our flesh c. And compare them with these of the same men in the same matter Christ is in the sacrament spiritually the maner of his presence is only spirituall he is eaten after a certaine spirituall manner The flesh of Christ is meate for the spirit not for the body It is a spirituall nourishment By faith we vnderstand he is there Wee see him with the eies of our faith eate him with the teeth of our faith by beleening not by receaning If euer there were a difference betweene the body and soule heauen hel light and darknesse sweete and sower ioye paine fire and water North south whatsoeuer may bee imagined to bee contrarie then is there a repugnancy in those their wordes expressing their meanings in the matter of the sacrament They will haue both true and yet our opinion must bee false and hereticall in vsing the later stile to expresse our meaninges But as wee and they are most opposite in the question so are one sort of their tearmes which they vse against vs vnto an other and such as can neuer verifie the truth of their assertion If they can reconcile all and prone vs heretikes I saie they maie vndertake any thinge yea though it be to the making of a black horse white or a white horse blacke as that cunning Grecian Autolycus did Of whom it is said Ovid. Met. l. 1◠Candida de nigris de candentibus atra facere assuenerat Although it hath beene a long time thought that they could doe much y I hope they can make no contradictorie propositions both true where euermore if one bee true the order wil be ineuitably false Tub. I assure my selfe so much as you haue said out of their owne bookes writings wil make anie reasonable mā astonied to thinke with how faire plausible tearmes they wil plead their religion as though there were agreement no where but amongst them disagreemēt everie where saue with them where if your collections quotations stand true sound I see not but they maie haue leaue to goe aside pen a new forme of wordes wherby to expresse their meanning in this point for the old wil not serue them Rom. Yea and a new Gospel too Allen Caietane for Allen Caietane confesseth both against themselues the one that the order of the Euangelists is peruerted and standing as it doth wil not serue their turne The other that there is nothing in the Gospell that doth binde vs to take those wordes in the proper signification as they sound to make the reall and substantiall body of Christ present vnder the shew of bread In explicating of which their opinion you may now call to minde the grossest of the figures which they vse and let passe a many of others Figures vsed by them in the sacramēt in those few words of Christ at his last supper First they saie 1,2 Christ tooke bread he blessed that is he transubstantiateth or changeth it he brake not the bread but the accidents or shew of bread he gaue not the bread but his own bodie 3. How they expound the word This in the sentence This is my body you haue heard before This that is that which is contained vnder these shewes is my bodie 4. 5. Againe where the words lie in the Evangelists Take eate this is my body they haue deuised an hideous figure of figures which is called Hysteron Proteron the Cart before the horse and say it should be This is my dody take eate 6. Christ blessed saie they by saying This is my body although the Euāgelists place it not so in order 7. How manie figures how often are they out in the breaking some saying one thing and some say an other 8. And in the wordes of consecration which and where they should be 9. And of the accidents being there in nothing that is whitnesse and nothing white Roundnesse and nothinge round colour and nothing coloured and an hundred monsters differences else amongst them hath this one monster Transubstantiation begot The antiquity of Transubstantiation But when was the monster himselfe begotten It was holidaie at Rome then he is not so old by 1200. yeares and more as you haue by told made beleeue Our countrie man Tonstall telleth vs it was concluded in the coūsel of Lateran L. 1. fol. 46. de ◅rit corpor sang 3 Opinions touching trāsubstantiation held vnder Innocentius the third Pope of that name Before which time saith he there was 3. opinions concernning that matter some thought that the bodie of Christ was there together with the bread as fire in a peece of flint which waie it seemeth Luther following held the Consubstantiation Others thought that the bread was gon corrupted Others that the substance of bread was changed into the substance of Christs bodie which waie Innocentius followed refusing the other two although no fewer miracles he should say grosse absurdities contrarieties in nature naie more seeme to bee builded vpon the opinion which hee did chuse then one the other which hee refused For before that time it was left free to euerie man to thinke as himselfe liked Now for the antiquitie credit of this Lateran counsell wee may consult with Andradius Defenc. Trid. conc l. 2. f. 427. Genebrard Chro. l. 4. fol. 955. rekoneth in for the 12. generall so doth Bellar. l. 2 c. 5. de conc eccles the late defender of the Tridētine counsell and as great a Doctor in his time as Bellarmine is now and therfore his testimonie may not bee denied In order it was the ninth generall for place it was held in the pallace Lateran in Rome for time it was held in the yeare of our Lord 1215. twelue hundred odd yeares after Christ It was called together saith he rather to amend the ill manners that then raigned then to decree anie matters of faith nether did they much trouble thēselues to expoūd any hard places of scripture or open anie mysteries such good heed was taken to establish so high a point Thus hauing the receipt you maie distill the water I meane hauing these things brought to your hands so plainly you maie learne those two points of wisdome so much spoken of Be sober distrustfull Amicus
Plato amicus Aristoteles magis amica veritas Let Plato bee your freind Let Aristotle bee your freind but the truth let it be more your freind for he that betraieth the truth betraieth his owne soule I craue no more of you but that you examine both doctrines before you yeeld your free assent to either if you haue me anie way in suspision ether for my iudgment in concluding against them that I peruert their meaning or that I trecherously abuse their texts I wil if you wil take the paines to shew you every quotation make your selfe iudge in both Tub. I thanke you for your free open offer It were hard to suspect him who yeeldeth such libertie I wil at my further leasure repaire vnto you for such of them as I shall thinke I may most directly charge them with al. Rom. You cānot chuse amisse chuse where you wil they be all true and not one of them but maketh against them in one point or other Al bewraying the weaknes of that cause which that it might be quite ouerthrowen lacketh but to be throughly sifted by wise and iudicious men such as woulde but try and examine it must not bee those who thinke it a tempting of God to read or heare any thinge that shal make against them And as I haue giuē you testimonie of their dealing in this point of the sacrament so if you wil but harken to that more which I shall deliuer I will shew you that in other things as in that they deale absurdly confusedly weakly doe euen goe from their owne grounds although like thēselues in all yet not like such as they would make the world beleeue they are And will verie clearlie plainly proue vnto you without sending you to their quotations when they cannot be found as they doe in most they doe that it is only true against them which they plead against vs that there are with them Iesuita Torrēsis in epistol dedicator in conf August no principles but those of Protagoras which was that that should be true which euery one would allow and that there is no rule amongst thē but the leaden Lesbian rule which will turne euerie way And because I wil giue you as little breath as I can I will begin with the Iesuite himselfe first who so chargeth vs and ether proue his ground false and his tongue too too lauish or els◠his freinds verie vnfreindly towards him who wil not let his word stand but disanull it and make it of no force In the preface of that worke of his which hee hath intituled S. Augustines confessiōs as though al that he had there laid down were indeed S. Augustines both for the bookes named Iesuit vt ante Praises giuen to S. Augustine by the Iesuite and the questions handled hee hath wonderfully praised that ancient father as indeed hee did deserue verie much in the Church of God euen so much that to drawe it into a breese he saith whatsoeuer S. Augustine doth deliuer was not the doctrine or teaching of any one prouince or kingdōe alone but the vniuersall consent and approbation of the whole catholike Church and which did not continue allowed for the space of three or foure hūdred yeares but hath bin receiued stood firme in the world these thousand yeares Hee was saith he a sincere and true witnesse of the Catholike faith Omni exceptione maiorem qui non de sua tantum sed de communi antiquorū patrum Apostolicae ecclesiae constanti atque stabili consessione nos bona fide reddat certiores beyond al exception one that did not only deliuer what was his owne iudgment in anie thinge But what was his was also the common consent of the ancient fathers Apostolike Church and who was free from parciallitie touching either part in whatsoeuer he wrot The Church had a Pastor and Bishop of him in the dexteritie of whose wit posteritie did wonder at the soundnes of his doctrine at his knowledge in the holy scripture at his subtiltie in disputing at his constancie in maintaining at his wisdome in iudging at his holinesse in liuinge at his singular faith industrie in accomplishing In the end he admonisheth his reader to repaire to S. Augustines bookes as to the fountaine and draw from him the confession of the true faith and Catholike Doctrine Be it vnto Torrensis al those that so loue S. Augustine as he hath said I wil say nothing now to the cōtrary More you see cānot be said of the mā But what if these very men who so much praise him now in a generallitie in a good mood doe when they are vrged with his opinion in a particular point of doctrine with the same breath blow hot and cold are these men not like our common slanderers in these daies that hold no man for honest any longer then he pleaseth them when indeed the more a man doth please them the more dishonest he is which consisteth only in following their brutish and beastly affections no more sauouring of Christianitie thē their stables and dogge kennels doe of Ciuet or perfume An instance against the Iesuite I will giue presētly S. Paul writing vnto the Corinthians speaking of the Iews in the time of the law saith they did eate the sāe spirituall meate 1. Cor. 10.1.2.3 vers The same spiritual meat and did drinke of the same spiritual drinke for they dranke of the spirituall rocke that followed them and the rocke was Christ Now the question is whether S. Paule meant they dranke of it amongst themselues or that they and wee had one in common betweene vs The Iewish sacraments and ours in substance al one which is Christ We say that the Iewish sacramēts were in effect substance all one with ours and that the spiritual meat of theirs was Christ the Messias to be crucified the outward signes differ they had Manna and we the bread of the Eucharist which is plainly S. Paules drift in that place not to speak of what they had amōge themselues but only that they we had one Christ in diuers different signes The Rhemists offended at this Annot. 1. cor 10. verse 3. yet knowing not how to amend themselues but by railing for quotations should not haue wanted if they could haue told where to haue founde them doe saie that it is an impudent forgery of the Calvinists to write vpon that place that the Iewes receaued no lesse the truth and substance of Christ and his benefits in their figures The Iewes among themselues did all eate of one spiritual meat or sacraments then we doe in ours and that they and we eate and drinke of the selfe same meate and drinke the Apostles saying only that they amonge themselues did all feed of one bread drinke of one rocke This say they turning the Apostles wordes and meaning to a cleane contrarie sense But how shal it be knowen besides