since the Apostles and because those things which I shall alleage out of him being versed in the same Question betweene him and the Donatists concerning the Church are most proper to this question betweene us and the Romanists whether we bee a Church or no and will answere most doubts and objections that are made herein but seeing that this Chapter is growne so long I will reserve it for another CHAP. V. Shewing out of Saint Augustine and others that there is no other way to demonstrate a Church to bee a true Christian Church but by the Word of God I Desire you Mr. Fisher and whosoever will vouchsafe to reade these my poore Labours to take my meaning in citing these Fathers Schoolmen and Iesuites which I have alledged in the precedent Chapters not to be such as if by their authoritie alone wee endeavour to proove our selves to be a Church but to shew that in matters of Faith and in this Question of the Church no demonstrations no strong proper and necessitating Arguments can bee made but out of Scripture All other Arguments are but probable without any necessary illation and forrein not proper to Theologie As after I have done with S. Augustine I will shew out of your owne Schoolmen This Father is he out of whom our later Writers have had next after the sacred Scriptures most of the excellent solid deepe Divinitie which they have This was hee that was stiled Malleus Haereticorum the Hammer of Heretikes Sabellicus Vir super omnes qui ante eum post eum huc usque fuerunt mortales admirabili ingenii acumine praeditus A man as your Sixtus Senensis writeth of him indued with a sharpnesse of wit above all mortals that have been before him Bibl. 5. l. 4. or after him to this time full of humane learning but in the divine Scriptures by farre the most learned of all others and in the Exposition of Scriptures raised to so high a pitch of incomparable subtiltie or acutenesse ultra quam dici queat more than the tongue of man can expresse Dr. Kinge This was hee of whom a learned Preacher and powerfull speaker of ours spake in the Pulpit that hee confuted the Heretikes so fully answered all their objections and demands so weightily that of him next after the Sonne of God himselfe it may bee sayd they durst aske him no more questions And if I in my poore judgment and reading may expresse what I have observed and doe conceive that was the most fruitfull age of Heresies that ever was and some of those Heretikes so learned especially Pelagius the grand enemy of the grace of God that if Saint Augustine had not been borne in those times Pelagius and many more had not been confuted This man amongst other Heretikes wrote against the Donatists who did appropriate the Church to themselves as now the Romanists or Papists doe so that it is the same question now betweene us and the Papists which was then betweene Saint Augustine and the Donatists The Donatists did tye the Church to Africke the Papists to Rome not that either the one or the other did or doe denie Christians to be in other parts of the world but that all men in the world must bee of their Church and hold union with them and dependance from them The first place that I will cite out of Saint Augustine shall be his words in his second Booke of Christian Doctrine ca. 9. All those things which doe containe faith and manners of living are found amongst those things quae apertè posita sunt in Scriptura which are plainly put downe in the written Word This doth proove what wee intend namely that this Quaestion of theirs if it be necessary is found in Scripture and not onely so but in plaine Scripture which answereth the objection of obscuritie in the Scripture that though it bee true that in Scriptures some things be obscure some be plaine yet all necessary things are plaine in Scripture Ex Augustino lib. de Vnitate Ecclesiae cont Petilianum Tom. 7. p. 109. Cap. 2. Inter nos Donatistas quaestio est ubi sit Ecclesia Quid ergo facturi sumus in verbis nostris eam quaesituri an in verbis capitis sui Domini nostri Iesu Christi Puto quod in illius potius verbis eam quarere debemus qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum novit enim Deus qui sunt ejus Cap. 3. Sed ut dicere coeperam non audiamus haec dico haec dicis sed audiamus haec dicit Dominus sunt certè libri dominici quorum authoritate utrique consentimus utrique credimus utrique servimus ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam ibi discutiamus causam nostram Auferantur ergo illa de medio quae adversus nos invicem non ex divinis Canonicis libris sed aliundè recitamus Quaerat fortassis aliquis dicat mihi Cur ergo ista vis auferri de medio quandò communio tua etiamsi proferantur invicta est Quia nolo humanis documentis sed divinis Oraculis sanctam Ecclesiam demonstrari si enim sanctae Scripturae in Africa sola designaverunt Ecclesiam in paucis Romae Rupitanis Montensibus in domo vel patrimonio unius Hispana mulieris quicquid de chartis aliis aliud proferatur non tenent Ecclesiam nisi Donatista Si in paucis Mauris Provinciae Caesariensis eam sancta Scriptura determinat ad Rogatistas transeundum est Si in paucis Tripolitanis Byzacenis provincialibus Maximianistae ad eam pervenerunt Si in solis Orientalibus inter Arianos Macedonianos Eunomianos si qui illic alii sunt requirenda est Quis autem possit singulas quasi Haereses enumerare gentium singularum Si autem Christi Ecclesia Canonicarum Scripturarum divinis certissimis testimoniis in omnibus Gentibus designata est quicquid attulerint undecunque recitaverint qui dicunt ecce hic Christus ecce illic audiamus potius si oves ejus sumus vocem Pastoris nostri dicentis Nolite credere Istae quippè singulae in multis Gentibus ubi ista est non inveniuntur haec autem quae ubique est etiam ubi illae sunt invenitur Ergo in Scripturis Sanctis Canonicis eam requiramus Cap. 4. Totus Christus caput corpus est quicunque de Christo rectè sentiunt sed ab Ecclesia ita dissentiunt ut eorum communio non sit cum tota quacunque diffunditur sed in aliqua parte seperata inveniatur manifestum est eos non esse in Ecclesia Gatholica Quapropter quia cum Donatistis nobis Quaestio est non de capite sed de corpore id est non de ipso Salvatore Iesu Christo sed de ejus Ecclesia ipsum Caput de quo consentimus ostendat nobis corpus suum de quo dissentimus ut per ejus verbum jam dissentire definamus Prioribus temporibus
per Prophetas sonuit verbum deindè per seipsum deindè per Apostolos In his igitur omnibus quaerenda est Ecclesia Hoc etiam praedico atque propono uti quae aperta manifesta deligamus quae si in sanctis Scripturis non invenirentur nullo modo esset vndè aperirentur clausa illustrarentur obscura Seponenda sunt quae obscurè sunt posita figurarum velaminibus involuta In talibus figuris nolo quaeramus Ecclesiam non quia falsae sunt sed quia interpretem quaerunt Cap. 6. O Donatistae Genesin legite Benedicentur in semine tuo omnes Gentes terrae Genes 22. Quid dicat Apostolus audiamus Gal. 3. In semine tuo quod est Christus Ecce Testamentum Dei quare vos irritum facitis Testamentum Dei dicendo nec in omnibus Gentibus esse completum periisse jam de Gentibus in quibus erat semen Abrahae Quare superordinatis dicendo in nullis terris haeredem permanere Christum nisi ubi poterit cohaeredem habere Donatum Non invidemus alicui Legite nobis hoc de lege de Prophetis de Psalmis de ipso Evangelio Apostolicis literis legite credimus sicut nos vobis legimus de Genes de Apostolo benedicentur in te omnes tribus terrae in semine tuo Date mihi hanc Ecclesiam si apud vos est ostendite vos communicare omnibus Gentibus quas jam videmus in hoc semine benedici Cap. 7. Quid in Prophetis quam multa quam manifesta sunt testamonia Ecclesiae per omnes Gentes toto orbe terrarum diffusae Isa 11. Repleta est vniversa terra ut cognoscat Dominum Isa 27. Germinabit florescet Israel replebitur Orbis terrarum fructu ejus Psal 27. Posui te in lucem Gentium ut sis salus usque ad fines terrae Laetare sterilis quia non paris erumpe exclama quoniam multi filii desertae magis quam ejus quae habet virum Comparent isti multitudinem suam in Aphrica constitutam cum multitudine Iudaeorum per omnes terras quacunque dispersi sunt et videant quam sint in illorum comparatione paucissimi Quomodo ergò de se dictum assignabunt multi filij desertae quam ejus quae habet virum Rursus comparent multitudinem Christianorum per omnes Gentes quibus non communicant videant quam pauci sint in comparatione omnes Iudei tandem aliquandò intelligant in Ecclesia Catholica toto orbe diffusa istam prophetiam esse completam Iam pauca de Psalmis audiamus Cap. 8. Dabo tibi Gentes haereditatem tuam possessionem tuam fines terrae Nonne Apostolus de Praedicatoribus Novi Testamenti dictum exposuit quod scriptum est in omnem terram exivit sonus eorum Psal 18. in fines orbis terrae verba eorum Psal 56. Et super omnem terram gloria tua undè gloria ejus super omnem terram nisi quia Ecclesia ejus per omnem terram replebitur gloria ejus omnis terra Psal 71. fiat fiat Ite nunc vos Donatist clamate non fiat non fiat Vicit vos Verbum Dei dicens fiat fiat Quid ad haec dicturi sint quae commemoravi ex Lege ex Trophetis ex Psalmis Audiamus ipsius verbi vocem ore propriae carnis expressam Sic scriptum ect sic oportebat Christum pati resurgere à mortuis tertio die Hic ipsum caput ostenditur quod ipsum se manibus discipulorum prebuit contrectandum Vide quemadmodum de corpore adjungat quod est Ecclesia ut nos nec in Sponso nec in Sponsa errare permittat Et predicari inquit in nomine ejus poenitentiam remissionem peccatorum per omnes Gentes incipientibus ab Hierusalem Quid hac voce veratiùs quid diviniùs quid manifestiùs Me piget commendare verbis meis haereticos non pudet oppugnare verbis suis Dicant ea testimonia quae posui de Lege Prophetis Psalmis obscura esse figuratè dicta etiam aliter posse intelligi quanquam in eis egerim quantum potui ut nec audeant dicere Sed ecce dicant nunquid obscure dictum aut aenigmatis velamento adumbratum est quod ipse Christus dixit quia sic scriptum est sic opportebat Christum pati resurgere tertio die predicari in nomine ejus poenitentiam remissionem peccatorum per omnes Gentes Epist 48. Audi dicit Dominus non dicit Donatus aut Rogatus aut Vincentius aut Hilarius aut Ambrosius aut Augustinus sed dicit Dominus Quomodo ex divinis literis confidimus accipisse nos Christū manifestum si non indè accepimus Ecclesiam manifestam Necesse est incerti sint qui pro sua societate testimonio utuntur non divino sed suo Nisi cognoveris teipsum non in verbis calumniosorū sed in testimoniis librorum meorum In Scripturis didicimus Christū Epist 116. in Scripturis didicimus ecclesiam Has Scripturas communiter habemus quare nō in eis et Christum Ecclesiam cōmuniter retinemus Ecce Scripturae communes ecce ubi novimus Christum ecce ubi novimus Ecclesiam Those words of St. Augustine I apply to our present purpose concluding in the same manner against the Romanists as this Father did against the Donatists changing onely Donatist for Romanist Cap 2. The Question betweene us and the Romanists is where is the Church What then shall we doe shall we seeke for the Church in our owne words or in the words of her Head and our Lord Christ Iesus I think we ought rather to seeke her in his words who is the Truth and best knoweth his owne body For the Lord knoweth who are his Cap. 3. But as I began to say let us not heare these words I say this thou saist that but let us heare this thus saith the Lord Our master hath left books unto us to the authority of which Bookes wee both consent wee both beleeve we both submit there let us seeke the Church there let us examine our cause Away with those words from amongst us which we cite not out of the Canonicall Books of God but elswhere Some man peradventure wil say unto me why wil you have those things taken away seeing your cause though those things were alleaged will stand invincible Because I would have the Church demōstrated not by human reason but by divine oracles For if the holy Scriptures haue designed the Church to be in Italy alone in those few which concur with Rome whatsoever may be brought out of other Bookes none but the Romanists do possesse the Church If the holy Scripture doe limit the Church to a few more of the Province of Caesarea we must passe unto the Rogatists If it be amongst those
their society their own testimony not the testimony of God Vnlesse thou know thy selfe not in the word of cavelling people but in the testimonies of my Books In the Scriptures have wee learned to know Christ in the Scriptures have we learned to know his Church Wee have these Scriptures common to us both and why out of these doe not we hold Christ and his Church common to us both And againe Behold the Scripture common to both loe where wee have known Christ loe where we have known his Church Reflecting now upon what wee have cited out of this incomparable Father wee may observe how plainly how frequently how perseveringly he maintaineth that this Question concerning the Church may be proved plainly manifestly clearly out of Scripture That hee would not have men use Humane testimonie in this question and they which doe use Humane testimonies herein and not Divine stand upon uncertainties Aquin. 1. q. 1. art 8. Carbo to the same purpose the Schoolmen say That Humane reasons in hac doctrina non valent ad probandum are not of force to prove yet it useth Humane reason not to prove Faith and what it believeth but to declare other things as a forreine Argument and probable but it useth Divine Authorities as a proper and necessary Argument Secondly let us observe that this Father writing upon this Question so many Books as make more then halfe a great Tome yet never used any other Argument in those Bookes but Scripture hee never called upon his Adversaries to shew names of their Professors in all Ages nor did hee attempt that for himselfe but chose rather to cite the same Scriptures twenty times at least in severall Bookes of that subject out of which places I will collect two Arguments first desiring the Reader to observe That things expresly contained in Scriptures and things thence deduced are of a different nature these later inferior to those those are Principles these are but Conclusions those depend upon supernaturall light of Divine Revelation these Conclusions are grounded upon those Divine Principles which men apprehend by Faith and then doe search and find the illation and consequence of these Conclusions by the light of naturall reason improved by Industry and refined by Art I doe not say that I can shew in Scripture that the Protestants are the true Church which were to make it a point of Faith but out of Scriptures I can prove that the Protestants are a Church and so make it a Theologicall conclusion and the Arguments demonstrations because drawne out of the proper Principles of Theologie or Divinitie thus 1. Argument They who professe that Faith which was preached through the World are a true Christian Church But the Protestants holding the Apostles Creed and the doctrine of the Apostles doe professe that Faith which was preached through the World Ergo The Protestants are a true Christian Church 2. Argument They who hold Communion and acknowledge themselves to be a part of that Church which is dispersed through the World are a true Church But the Protestants doe hold Communion and acknowledge themselves to bee a part of that Church which is dispersed through the World Ergo The Protestants are a true Church Secondly out of the same Principles I will prove that the Church of Rome is not the Church as excluding all other Churches thus 1. Argument The Church doth professe that Faith which was preached and received through the World The Roman Church holding a new Creed of unwritten Traditions Transubstantiation worshipping of Images c. doe therein not professe that Faith which was preached and received through the World Ergo The Church of Rome is not the Church 2. Argument The Christian Church hath many more Children then the Church of the Iewes But the Romane Church hath not more Children then the Church of the Iewes Ergo The Roman Church is not the Christian Church The Major Saint Austine doth bring out of Scripture in those words The barren hath many more children then shee that hath an husband The Minor will appeare if we say unto these Romanist◠as Saint Austine did to the Donatists Let them compare their multitude with the multitude of the Iewes dispersed over the world and they shall see how few they are in comparison of them the Iewes being by the calculation of the a Brirewood in his Enquiries most learned in Historie and Geographie as many as will people all Europe The Roman Church when it was entire being not much more then halfe Europe if so much and now having lost halfe that it was is farre lesse This I shall enlarge morefully hereafter when I shall come to maintaine my former Arguments Now I addresse my selfe to Master Fishers Replie CHAP. VI. Fisher Concerning M. Rogers his Answer to M. Fishers five Propositions BY this which hath been said against Master Bernard his Looke beyond Luther it may be easily seene that M. Rogers hath not sufficiently answered M. Fishers question aforesaid for with a bold audacitie he nameth for Protestants famously knowne Romane Catholikes to wit these Writers of the first seven hundred yeeres and amongst others even Saint Bede whose Writings and profession of life being a professed Romane Catholike Monke shew him to bee no Protestant Rogers I can see no such thing in what you have said against Mr. Bernard neither have you said any thing there which may touch me but you have the same in this your Treatise against me you have written not halfe a sheet in Reply to Mr. Bernards Booke of eight or nine sheets and yet you would have men see in your short Reply to him a Confutation also of what I have written I have read that Alexander the Great seeing a companie of Indian Apes marching along a Hils side tooke them to be an armie of Enemies but when he came neere he found them to be as they were poore silly fearfull Apes that ran into the woods to hide themselves Hee that thinkes hee seeth in your Reply to Mr. Bernard a confutation of him or me is as much mistaken as Alexander was in the Apes the reason is hee looketh a farre off as Alexander did when hee tooke them for armed men but hee that commeth neere unto your Writings vieweth and examineth them diligently shall find that there is no armie there are no armed men no sword no weapon no Scripture no reason to wound us You strout and stalke a farre off but when wee draw neere you flye into the thickets of some darke speeches ambiguous phrases aequivocating termes like those Liguranes quos major aliquantò labor erat invenire quam vincere It is more labour to find you out then to conquer you Mr. Bernard I doubt not is able to answer any thing that you have objected unto him if he think such poore objections of yours to be worthy of any Reply I wil addresse my selfe unto what you object unto mee you say that I have not sufficiently answered Mr. Fishers
will grant him to be yours but of those Monkes and these I may say O quantum hic monachus monacho distabat ab illo How much doth your Parsons and other Monkes differ from Beda and those more ancient Friers or Monkes or religious Orders call them as you please Fisher The like may be said of divers others but at this time it may suffice to give this one example to shew that Mr. Rogers naming all those he named spake without Booke or without having at hand or looking into his bookes and that he might as well have named the Pope and Cardinalls and Bishops Priests Monkes and all other religious persons of the present Roman Church to be Protestants as he nameth the said ancient Fathers Rogers And so I will when I come to my Catalogue name Popes Cardinalls Bishops c. for confirmation of my faith whether it be for my Creed which are more principall and proper points or articles of faith or for all those bookes of Scripture which I beleeve or things therein revealed from God Because the testimony of an adversarie for an adversary is most strong and will take away your personall exceptions Thus Paul did cite a Heathen to perswade Heathens yea the inscription of an Altar dedicated to the unknowne God found amongst Heathen Idolls Thus the Fathers Augustine and others in the Primitive Church did cite the Iewes for confirmation of their doctrine and that they did not misaleadge the Prophets and writers of the old Testament Iudaei inimici nostri sunt de chartis inimici convincatur adsarius The Iewes are our enemies out of the bookes of our enemies wee convince our adversaries Augustine upon the 40th Psalme and often in other places Master Fisher or his Second would have exclaimed hereat saying what meanest thou Augustine wilt thou perswade mee that the Iewes are Christians if not why citest thou their bookes nay what meanest thou Paul to cite the Greeke Poets wouldst thou perswade me that they are Christians as if it must follow that they whose testimonie we cite in some things must be our friends in all All the faith of the Protestants is confirmed by the Papists all their explicite all their implicite faith all that belongs to our faith vel per se vel per accidens essentially or accidentally primarie or secundarily as an Article of faith or as an illustration of the same expressed in Scripture and yet the Protestants are no Papists the Papists are no Protestants because the Papists have a new Creed which Protestants deny and I call God to witnesse that I desire to die a thousand deaths rather then to approve it because I assure me it is false in all and in some things blasphemous The Papists have such exercise of Religion worshipping of Images praying to Saints which I abhorre as being Idolatry In discipline also they have such tenents of absolute supreme power over Bishops Kings Lawes oathes as is full of pride sedition usurpation and impiety Now here we differ here I am in the negative and so it doth belong to you to prove the affirmative It is a just law and your owne Master Fisher for these I need not produce testimony seeing I doe not avow maintaine beleeve any such Creed any such practise of Religion any such discipline But for my faith either explicite or implicite all that is revealed by God in his word I may bring my Adversaries to depose for me Paul said unto Agrippa a Iew no Christian Iuvenalis yea a wicked incestuous King if Roman Authors wrong him not incestae dedit hoc Agrippa sorori Yet to this bad man this unconverted Iew Paul saith O King Agrippa beleevest thou the Prophets I know thou beleevest them And may not I say Master Fisher beleeve you the Apostles Creed I know you doe beleeve it I have no other Articles of faith no other primarie propositions of faith againe for the totall object for the secondary propositions of faith contained in Scripture may not I aske you and say Master Fisher doe you beleeve the Bookes of Moses the Psalmes the Prophets and all those Bookes of the Iewish Canon as also all the new Testament I know you doe Master Fisher why then herein is my faith limitted whatsoever doctrine is plainely hence inferred or out of principles of nature I receive as doctrines or truths convincing my understanding but they are no part of my faith After these all doctrines and lawes Ecclesiasticall or civill in the Church or State wherein I live not contradicting the word of God or my conscience I receive with humility May I aske you Master Fisher againe whether the Apostles Creed and those bookes of old and new Testament received by our Church of England had not professors in all ages nay were not professed and beleeved of the Popes and Cardinalls of all ages I know you will not deny but they were so professed why then may not I vouch these Popes and Cardinalls for my selfe as I intend to doe when I come to my Catalogue CHAP. VII Fisher ANd I marvaile why having gone halfe the way as hee saith hee maketh a stop there and doth not with the like audacity goe on in naming other famous Roman Catholikes in every of the other ages Rogers Because Master Fisher offered in like proportion to name and defend Professors of Roman religion holding nothing contrary to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent these were your words in the first Paper I received of yours I have gone halfe my journey you not a step in proportion you should have gone as farre as I did especially seeing you would have no other meanes of triall whereas I have and hold other and better meanes to prove my Faith and my Church yet to satisfie others to stop your mouth and to meet you at your owne weapon I undertooke this as a probable forreine humane uncertaine Argument yet such as maketh more for us then for you Fisher Namely such as Gualterus in Latine and the Author of the Appendix to the Antidote in English have set downe for members in the Roman Church Rogers If they have done it sufficiently and effectually it had beene the lesse labour for you Mr. Fisher to have transcribed them but wee may guesse what makes you neither take a Catalogue out of them nor make one of your owne after your example I might transmit you to Illiricus his Catalogus testium veritatis or The mysterie of Babylon vvritten by Sir Phillip Morney the learned Lord of Plessis who have performed this for the reformed Churches farre better then yours have done for your Church Yet when I come to the place where you have cited my Catalogue I will make it out but let mee aske you vvhy instead of naming such as professed the Romane Religion holding nothing contrary to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent now you put members of the Romane Church as if it were the same a member of the
my grounds and yet write in the top of your Booke for divers pages these words Master Rogers his most weake grounds viz. pag. 26 27. and in both these pages not one word spoken of my grounds Thus would you perswade your silly Proselytes who must reade no more then the Title of your Bookes That you have answered all when you have answered nothing Likewise pag. 22. you write over head Master Rogers his most weake Arguments whereas there is not in that page any one Argument of mine You can passe all those grounds of mine with a tricke of Rhetorick to take notice of that which you cannot answer unto and in stead of that must strike at a stander by namely our Booke of Articles saying That they be more craftily composed then the Articles of other Protestant Churches which I deny as most false neither need it any further Reply being an indefinite exception and as it seemeth spoken of purpose to draw mee from that matter proposed to goe a roving as your selfe have done with impertinent discourses Fisher I might therefore without more adoe conclude that Master Rogers hath not sufficiently answered Master Fishers Question Rogers With as little adoe as you can inferre abrogating a Law from that word which is the most proper for enacting the same Decret 1. part dist 4. c. 4. Lugduni Edit anno 1584. jussu Greg. 13. Statuimus id est abrogamus Wee doe enact it that is wee doe cancell it or as you say the Roman Church that is the Catholicke Church a part that is a whole a piece of man that is a whole man this is quidlibet ex quolibet from the staffe to the corner Fisher In regard hee hath neither named Protestants in all Ages neither hath hee sufficiently proved them hee named to be Protestants but by such false suppositions and bad definitions and such other shifts as any Arrian or Anabaptist or whatsoever other absurd Sectary may by the like defend the same persons to have beene of their Religion or Sect. Rogers The Question was whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages This I prooved by divers Arguments to which you have made such answer as wee shall see anon To this I have not sufficiently answered say you in regard 1. I have not named Protestants in all ages As if there were no other means to decide the question but this no other proofe then induction or that my adversary proposing the question should limit me what kind of proofe I must use As if the King of France denouncing war against the King of England should send him word If you will warre against mee you must doe it by land not by sea and you must land in Picardie not in Normandie or Britaine or Poitou and you must chuse your place of battell in large Plaines and fight with horse not with foot and bring no Archers into the field or else confesse that you are no Warrier your Englishmen Scots and Britaines no Souldiers your proceedings not justifiable by the law of Nations Would Charles of France the Frentick have sent such a message such a challenge to our Henry the fift Yet Master Fisher saith If any Protestant will answer the Premises let him set downe names of Protestant Preachers in all Ages who taught the people Protestant Doctrine in everie severall Age or else confesse that there were no such before Luther or at least not in Ages to be found in History As if I should say If any Iesuit will answer mee let him shew mee the names of Iesuit Preachers in all Ages who taught the people Iesuiticall Doctrine in every severall Age or else confesse that there were no such before Ignatius Laiola We will deale with you as Edward the third with Phillip who presented himselfe before Paris saying Hee did call upon him to open fight in the view of France and before his great Theater of Paris He did not limit him to any one kind of fight or weapon hee left him to his choise so doe wee with you prove your selves to be the only Church and that all are excluded from salvation unlesse they hold Communion with and subjection to your Pope prove it by any testimonie of Scripture or demonstration from the Principles of Scripture or Reason frame your Argument as you thinke best for your owne advantage there are many places for Arguments viz. 24. wee exclude none but will admit them in their degrees some as necessary some as probable These are places of Art or Learning yet you will exclude us from all these and bring us ad loca inartificiata to testimonie And whereas those are Divina of God or Man vel Humana of God or Man You will have none but the later which can be but weak there being no Historian or Father but might be deceived and very few against whom you have not taken some exceptions Of all the formes of arguing a Syllogisme is that principall forme which alone hath constringencie and necessary illation and to which all other formes as being imperfect are reduced this we must not meddle with but bring exemplum or inductio or at the most an Enthymeme which is curtatus imperfectus Syllogismus all of them unsufficient parere scientiam to worke and produce true knowledge and yet we must use onely these This is as if the King of France should have sent to our King that when hee fought hee should not put on his best Armour nor use his best Sword Saint Augustine in this question excluded humane testimony yet you will have nothing else Non audiamus Haec dicit Ambrosius Augustinus c. Sed haec dicit Dominus Your Schoole also granteth that Scriptures are the principles in Theologie and all demonstrations must bee ex proprijs principijs out of proper principles Yet you will none of them onely names out of Histories you call for This was a kind of proofe which I did not approve at first but denyed the consequence of your 5th Proposition thus The summe of your fift Proposition is briefly this If the names of Protestant Pastors in all ages cannot be shewed then the Protestants are not the true Church This I deny to be of undoubted consequence for that argument negatively from authority is of no force In your demand you require the names of such as taught the Protestant doctrines whereas all your Propositions before were of faith as if all doctrines were points of faith I undertooke to shew a Church professing the same faith which the Protestants now doe in all ages and in all your Propositions you speake of faith here you speake of doctrines You know all doctrines are not articles of faith I have named Authors for 800. yeeres and in this my second Reply I will for the rest Was not my request more reasonable to call upon you to goe on so farre it being your owne way it being a course proposed by your selfe yet he that hath not gone one mile findeth fault
by me I needed not to have set downe names of Protestant Pastors in all ages or in any age My two first Arguments the one a causis the other a signis might have served the turne without the third ab exemplis and I might have contented my selfe with going lesse then halfe that way which is your way and not mine I never tooke it for other then an uncertaine darke slippery cumbersome way it was your only way and yet you would not goe one step Did ever any Iudge citing a man by writ to appeare before him at Westminster limit him which way he should come would you thinke it reason that a Iudge should command a Herefordshire man to come to London not through Worcester or Glocester but through Shropshire Darbyshire Yorke c. The two Evangelists Saint Matthew and Saint Luke deriving the pedigree of our Saviour from David yet did it by different wayes De Doct. Christiana and divers lines Saint Augustine saith That two men differing in the exposition of some place of Scripture he that erreth yet if his exposition leade to charity hee is like unto a man which missing his way yet commeth to the end of his journey My journey is to Christ my scope to bring my faith and my Church thither you might leave me to chuse my owne way which was the way of Saint Augustine by Scriptures who doth disclaime and dislike your way by humane testimonies Yet even in this your owne way I doubt not but I shall goe as farre as you in a day and shall come sooner to my journeyes end then you shall for the reasons which now I will alleadge in the succeeding Chapter CHAP. XIII Humane Histories no proofe of any Church YOu would bring this great triall concerning the visible Church to Histories only which I might refuse briefly for these reasons First Histories humane in Divinity are weak improper and uncertaine proofes Secondly your Index expurgatorius blotting out of Authors that which maketh against you Thirdly You forge Authors Records and Councells to further your cause Fourthly You slight and deny the best Authors Yet to give others satisfaction I will enlarge these foure reasons in this Chapter not that your objections require any such full answer in this point that I have performed already First of the uncertainty of humane Histories Bodin in that learned discourse of his entitled The Method of Histories a man of your owne who also dedicated that booke unto the chiefe President of your Court of Inquisition doth make foure kindes of Histories First Humane Secondly Naturall Thirdly Mathematicall Fourthly Divine The first he saies is uncertaine and confused the second for the most part certaine the third more certaine the fourth most certaine and unchangeable Yet you Master Fisher in this divine question refuse the fourth which is divine most certaine and immutable and will have no other proofe then the first which is humane uncertaine and confused When Ticonius in the same question did alleadge Divini Testamenti tonitrua those thundering testimonies of the word of God against Parmenianus the Donatist Aug. cont ep Par l. 1. c. 1. which we doe produce against the Romanists making the same claime to the Church which they did and tying the Church to Rome as the Donatists did to Africk Parmenianus on the other side opposeth the relation of the Priests of his owne side say then saies Saint Augustine that we ought rather to beleeve your Colleagues then the Testament of God shall the smoake of earthly lyes prevaile against this light which came from Heaven If Parmenianus were not in love with his Episcopall Chaire he would rather choose to beleeve the written word of God then his fellow Bishops Thus much and much more to this purpose in that Booke and divers other Bookes of the seventh Tome but I will conclude this of the uncertainty of humane testimony with the words of that Father in his second Tome in his 48. Epistle Necesse est incerti sint qui pro sua societate testimonio utuntur non Divino sed suo It is of necessity that they must be uncertaine who defend their society not by the testimony of God but by their owne Thus much of the uncertainty in it selfe but much more uncertaine is all that you shall alleadge since you have by your Index Expurgatorius altered Authors to your purpose at your pleasure The Pope himselfe and the Ordinaries in their severall jurisdictions as also the Officers of Inquisition against Haeretickes are carefull to prevent the publishing of any Bookes which may seeme any way to derogate from the power of the Pope Widring in Apol. pro jure princ pag. 343. and if any such Bookes be published they endeavour wholly to suppresse the same or at the least forbid any man to reade them without speciall licence untill they be purged Thus a Priest of your owne hath written These your purging Tables are of two sorts some doe forbid whole Authors some doe blot out sentences or words so that if any Author speake against you you will either deny the whole Booke or produce some Edition licenced by your Inquisitors wherein those words are not to be found as having passed under the Purgatory of your penne Your severall bookes called Indices expurgatorij purging Tables printed in divers places as at b An. 1584. Madrid in Spaine at c An. 1607. Rome at d An. 1586. Lions are witnesses that you have left no witnesse in the world without exception If Saint Augustine say Tom. 4 ed Parisi apud Catol Guil. viduam etc. Anno 1555. Mortuorum animae non sentiunt res viventiâ—m The soules of the dead know not the estate or affaires of the living Your Belgian Index doth purge out this with a deleatur let it bee blotted out fol. 115. litera l. If Saint Gregorie Nissene say We have learned to worship and adore that nature alone which is uncreated you can purge out this with a deleatur dictio solummodò blot out this word alone saith your Spanish Index pa. 20. If Saint Chrysostome speake for the perspicuity of Scripture as hee doth in many places as namely in his third Sermon upon Lazarus deleantur let those words be blotted out saith your Index of Spaine reprinted at Samiur If the same Father speake for the sufficiency of Scripture as he doth in his Commentary on the 95. Psalme the same Index hath a deleatur for it If hee say the Church is founded upon the Rock of Faith and not upon Saint Peter the same Index hath a deleatur for it let it be blotted out Much could I cite to this purpose but as the rule is Qui semel pejerat c. He that is once convicted of bearing false witnesse is never after to be admitted for a witnesse so hee that is once found to falsifie and blot out Records looseth for ever his credit in any thing he shall produce out of his owne
first Pope of that name was condemned for an Hereticke in three Councels accursed for an Heretick by two Popes that succeeded after him his owne hereticall Epistles are found in the Acts of the sixth Councell besides divers other Writers Latin Greek that relate it Yet Bellarmine hath the face to denie all this Pope Joane is recorded by Writers of their owne is denied by these late Romans that will blush at nothing When the Carthaginians in the end of the second Punick Warre sent to Rome to sue for peace a Roman Senator asked them by what Gods they would now sweare seeing they had broken the promise they had formerly made and swore by the Gods to observe So I may aske you what Historie you will alleadge for the first 400 yeares whose testimonie you will admit who have rejected and reviled all Historians of those times calling them erroneous partiall false deceitfull lying impudent Heretickes CHAP. XIIII Fisher AVthoritie as for example the Scripture saith nothing of this or that or the Fathers of the first three hundred yeares make no expresse mention of this or that Ergo No such thing is or is of no force Yet when the Negative Argument is grounded in an already granted Affirmative Proposition as it is in this our case the Negative Argument is of great and undeniable force As for example if wee did grant this Proposition if such or such a thing were holy Scripture would have spoken of it or the Fathers of the first three hundred yeares would have made expresse mention of it If I say wee granted this wee could not deny the aforesaid Negative Argument usually made by Protestants to be of force against us Now Master Rogers doth not nor in reason cannot deny Master Fishers fourth Proposition which is an Affirmative whereupon his fifth Negative Proposition is grounded And therefore Master Rogers ought not to deny but must needs grant Master Fishers fifth and so all his five Propositions Which being granted if hee will make a good answer as hee pretendeth hee must first set downe names of Protestant Pastors in all Ages and not content himselfe with naming some whom he thinketh to be Protestants and with saying hee hath gone halfe the way Secondly If hee will satisfie Master Fishers other Paper as he pretendeth to doe hee must prove and defend them to be Protestants as Master Fishers Paper requireth and must bring some or other good Authors who doe clearly shew them to hold all or some principall points of Protestants Faith differing from Catholicke Roman Faith and not to condemne any of the 39 Protestant Articles and must not content himselfe with making such Arguments as hee maketh which are most insufficient either to convince or probably to perswade either his Adversary or any indifferent judicious Reader for these be his Arguments First a Causis thus The faith contained in the Scriptures hath had visible professors in all ages But the Protestant faith is contained in the Scriptures ergo Secondly a Signis thus The faith is that which hath testimonies of Antiquities universality and consent of fathers and other writers in all ages But the faith of Protestants harh these testimonies ergo Thirdly ab Exemplis thus Names of such as professed the Protestants faith in all ages Christ and his Apostles St. Iohn Ignatius Polycarpus Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Clemens Alex Origen Cyprian Lactantius Athanasius Cyrill Hierosol Ambrozius Nyssenus Hieronimus Ruffinus Chrysostomus Augustinus Cyrillus Alex Theodoretus Socrates Sozomenus Fulgentius Evagrius Gregorius primus Beda Damascenus Alcuinus Thus having gone halfe way I conclude with this Argument The Protestant faith being that which is contained in Scriptures was received and taught by all the Orthodox Fathers But the Fathers above named be all Orthodox ergo Now who doth not see that these Arguments be most insufficient and that they may be most easily answered by denying the Protestant faith to be contained in Scriptures or to have testimony of antiquity universality and consent or to have beene professed by those Fathers which Master Rogers named Who doth not also see that the same Arguments may be more strongly retorted against Protestants by only altering the word Protestant into Catholick in regard our Catholick doctrine may be and is ordinarily proved by plaine Testimonies of Scriptures and Fathers even by confession of divers learned Protestants themselves I marvaile therefore that M. Rogers being accounted a worthy Oxford Divine would affirme and offer to prove and defend Protestants to have beene in all ages upon so sleight grounds which if they be admitted for good every sect of Hereticks may affirme and prove and defend men of their sect to have beene in all ages For tryall whereof I wish it may be imagined that there were an Anabaptist for example who held all the Protestant faith saving onely some few negatives and namely that it is not lawfull to baptize Infants and that this Anabaptist had framed to himselfe such false Rules as Master Rogers hath set downe to himselfe Rogers I desire Master Fisher and the Reader to looke backe to the former page of the precedent leafe to which I have already answered for in matter it was the same with that which went before contained in the 26th and 27th pages of Master Fishers Booke against me which were all spent in seeking to strengthen his owne Propositions his owne grounds yet the Title he gave unto both those Pages was Master Rogers his most weake grounds there being in both those Pages not one sentence nor line nor word concerning any grounds of mine so in the 28th Page of his Booke he hath put this Title Master Rogers his most weake Arguments Whereas there is not one Argument nor one Proposition of mine in all that Page as may easily appeare to him that will but reade the same onely he speaketh something in defence of his owne grounds to which I have already answered Yet because of the Title agreeing with the 29 and 30 pages which follow next after I have copied them out and placed them altogether that have this title viz. Master Rogers his most weake Arguments Which I thinke he did to gull his Proselytes who reading but the Title must thinke that Master Fisher hath shewed my grounds and Arguments to be weake when and where hee hath not made any mention of any Arguments of mine CHAP. XV. Fisher NOw who doth not see that these Arguments be most insufficient and they may be most easily answered by denying the Protestant faith to bee contained in Scriptures or to have testimony of Antiquity Vniversality and Consent or to have bin professed by these Fathers which M. Rogers named Rogers I doe not think that you did see any insufficiency in the Arguments or that they were easily to be answered for then you would have answered punctually to every argument apart and not thus confusedly and altogether as if you had been afraid to come to close fight but standing a farre off to
which is denounced against those who adde unto the Word of God And will you say that wee professe any Faith besides that which is contained in Scriptures This is your easie answering Master Fisher to denie that wee professe that which we doe professe in all our Bookes in all our Schooles in all our Pulpits in all our Discourses of this subject viz. What wee ought to believe You will as easily answer the other Argument let us see the Argument and your answer 2. Arg. A Signis thus The Faith which hath testimonies of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent of Fathers and other Writers in all ages had visible Professors in all ages But the Faith of Protestants hath these testimonies Ergo The Faith of Protestants had visible Professors in all Ages To this you answer by denying the Minor or second Proposition thus The Protestant Faith hath not testimonies of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent Ad partes Master Fisher which Article of the Apostles Creed doth want the testimonie of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent which of those Bookes received for Canonical of the Church of England and named of mee a little before want these testimonies of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent Is it Genesis or Exodus or any other Booke of Moses Is it the Psalmes or Proverbs or Histories that want this testimony Or is it Esay or Ieremie or Ezekiel or Daniel or any other of the Prophets Is it Matthew or any other of the Evangelists or Apostles name the man name the Church name the time if you cannot then say your easie answering is no answer 3. Arg. Ab Exemplis thus Names of such as professed the Protestants faith in all ages Christ and his Apostles St. Iohn Ignatius Polycarpus Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Clemens Alex Origen Cyprian Lactantius Athanasius Cyrill Hierosol Ambrozius Nyssenus Hieronimus Ruffinus Chrysostomus Augustinus Cyrillus Alex Theodoretus Socrates Sozomenus Fulgentius Evagrius Gregorius primus Beda Damascenus Alcuinus Thus having gone halfe way I conclude with this Argument The Protestant faith being that which is contained in Scriptures was received and taught by all the Orthodox Fathers But the Fathers above named be all Orthodox Ergo Now what answer doe you Master Fisher give to this Argument of mine not a word unlesse to denie the conclusion be to answer an Argument I hope you will not acknowledge your selfe to be so ignorant in Logicke you know the Rule Ex veris possit nil nisi vera sequi If my Premises be true my Argument in forme as you neither deny my Premises nor except against the forme of my Argument the conclusion must follow must be true for out of true Premises can follow no conclusion but what is true Arist De Sophist Elench c. 17 18 c. this is not easie answering but not answering Looke into Aristotle concerning the duty of a Respondent and the divers kinds of answering You not being able to answer this Argument say I must bring out some or other good Authors who doe clearly shew these before named to hold all or some principall points of Protestant Faith differing from the Catholicke Roman Faith I have proved what I undertooke and what is sufficient by such Arguments as you cannot answer you dare not examine but flye from them knowing their strength and your weaknesse But you will have me prove them by Authors is any humane authoritie of a private man better then reason And what Authors would you have will not their owne profession and their owne workes together with the esteeme and reputation of Orthodox Writers which they have had in all Ages serve the turne to shew what their Faith was doe any men know what they did believe or what they did professe better then themselves As for your Roman Catholicke Faith I have alreadie shewed how fond how vaine how simple a conjunction you make of them that no child ordinarily of seven yeares of age understanding the termes but will wonder with what face you can say That a part of a Church is a whole Church that a part of a Kingdome is a whole Kingdome that a part of mans Body is the whole Body You say also that I must prove out of good Authors that they doe not condemne any of the 39 Protestant Articles Here you not being able to answer as I thinke doe dissemble conceale and passe by what I did put downe in answer to this demand of yours viz. 1. It is no prejudice to our Faith if the same Authors doe differ from us in other opinions not concerning Faith as long as they maintaine our Faith 2. The Church of Rome cannot produce Fathers in all Ages who doe not contradict the Councell of Trent in some Doctrines established in the said Councell This you can conceale and passe over knowing that you are not able to performe it for your Councell of Trent I undertooke for matters of Faith not for secondarie Doctrines to produce Authors in all Ages professing our Faith though they might dissent from us in other Doctrines of an inferior nature not revealed in Scripture nor belonging to the foundation and Principles of Christian Religion As for the sufficiencie of my Arguments I have already made it good for any thing that you have yet spoken against them Let us now see what you say further against them CHAP. XVI Fisher WHo doth not also see that the same Arguments may be more strongly retorted against Protestants by onely altering the word Protestant into Catholick in regard our Catholick Doctrine may be and is ordinarily proved by plaine testimonies of Scriptures and Fathers A most bold falshood even by the confession of divers learned Protestants themselves Rogers All the proofe that this man will bring is for ought I can see or thus Who doth not see I doe not see If it be granted c. as I have observed before for if these Arguments might be retorted against the Protestants by changing of one word why did hee not performe the same I must doe it for him Major The Faith contained in the Scriptures had visible Professors in all Ages Minor But the Catholicke Faith is contained in the Scriptures Conclusion Ergo The Catholicke Faith had visible Professors in all Ages Here I have onely changed the word Protestant into Catholicke and what one word is here against Protestants who doe hold and professe no other Faith then what is contained in Scriptures as I have already shewed out of our sixt Article wee grant this whole Argument Major Minor and Conclusion which if you doe grant I will take the Minor and inferre a dangerous Conclusion against the Church of Rome thus The Catholicke Faith is contained in the Scriptures The Roman Faith is not contained in the Scriptures Ergo The Roman Faith is not the Catholicke Faith If you denie this Minor as it seemes by those words of yours before alleadged you will denie viz. Our Catholick Doctrine may be and is ordinarily proved by plaine testimonies
disobedient unto Government and so excommunicated and imprisoned for either of those without Heresie If all Decrees of Councels be Doctrines of faith as you affirme your Cardinall Bellarmine is deceived who saith that in Councels the greatest part of those things which are done doe not belong to faith neither the Disputations concerning faith nor the reasons which are added nor those things which are brought for explication and illustration but onely the very naked Decrees and not all those but they alone who are proposed as matters of faith To this subscribed Widrington in the Preface above alleadged and he voucheth Canus for the same opinion CHAP. XXIIII Fisher I Aske what Scripture or reason assureth that no Negative Doctrine pertaines to faith for Scripture having in it so many Negative sentences which are to be beleeved assureth the contrary neither is there any reason which can assure a man that he is freed from beleeving for example this Negative Deus non mentitur God doth not lie rather then from beleeving this Affirmative Est Deus Verax God is a true speaker for both being said by one and the same God our Lord Trueth it selfe and both being propounded by one and the same Catholicke Church his Spouse assisted by his Spirit the Spirit of truth as spoken by God in holy Scripture both are equally to be beleeved neither can any without danger of eternall damnation deny or doubt of either those or any other even the least point of Catholike faith as we may learn out of Saint Athanasius Creed saying that Whosoever will be saved it is needfull that he hold the Catholike faith which unlesse each one hold entire that is in all points and inviolate that is in the true uncorrupted sense of the Catholike Church without doubt he shall perish everlastingly So as whether the Doctrine be Negative or Affirmative whether fundamentall or accessory supposing it to be a Doctrine propounded by the Catholike Church as revealed by God it must be beleeved explicite or implicite and may not rashly or which is worse advisedly be denyed or doubted of and much lesse may the contrary be obstinately maintained against the knowne judgement of a lawfull Generall Councell or the unanime consent of the Pastors of the Church in regard our Saviour hath expresly averred That he who despiseth them despiseth himselfe and him that sent him to wit God his Father And againe he that will not heare the Church let him be to thee as an heathen and Publicane All which sheweth that such as do obstinately deny or doubtingly dispute against any the least point knowne by Church proposition to be a point of Catholike faith is worthily accounted an Heretike a despiser of God an excommunicated person and no member of the true Catholike Church and one who if he so live and die without repentance cannot be saved But as Athansius without any want of charity pronounceth he shall without doubt perish everlastingly Rogers I have answered you more then once and given you reasons more then one or two why Negations are not matters of faith per se fundamentall and necessary for I brought this distinction of Affirmation and Negation after those distinctions of Doctrine 1. Accessorie of res fidei per se res fidei per accidens 2. Doctrine fundamentall of res fidei per se res fidei per accidens Then I added this distinction of Affirmation and Negation so that my meaning appeared by the connexion it had with that which went before that Negations are not points or Articles of faith are not fundamentall doctrines are not res fidei per se I did not say but they might be res fidei per accidens as all propositions revealed in Scriptures whether affirmative or negative are besides those Articles of faith Here then you doe not dispute ad idem non facis elenchum you prove what I doe not deny you prove that Negatives contained in Scripture pertaine to faith which I do not deny but you do not prove that they are points of faith fundamentall Doctrines res fidei per se things proper and essentiall unto faith as your great Schooleman Aquinas your Bellarmine and Valenza have written cited by me afore where I have also shewed the difference betweene being a matter of faith and pertaining to faith neither doe I say that any man is freed from beleeving this Negative God doth not lie or any other Negative revealed in Scripture but that an implicite faith may serve in all Negatives as well as those Affirmatives which are not Articles of the Creed I say againe that Negatives in Scripture are res fidei per accidens non per se They are accidentall unto faith not essentiall There is no generall necessity to beleeve them fide explicita so to beleeve them as actually to know them but it is sufficient to beleeve them fide implicita with a minde prepared actually to beleeve them when they doe appeare unto us actually to be revealed in Scripture All things revealed in Scripture have aequalem veritatem non aequalem utilitatem They are equally true but not equally profitable For these propositions God is not a lyer God is not as man the heathen hath no knowledge of his Law Pharaoh was not obedient And all that are Negatives in Scripture being put together cannot informe a man in that saving truth which is sufficient for his soules health to beleeve but a few Affirmatives twelve Propositions contained in the Creed can doe it Againe I say that All things revealed in Scripture have aequalem necessitatem credendi non aequalem necessitatem cognoscendi It is not a like necessary for us to know all things revealed in Scripture but it is a like necessary for us to beleeve them when we know them As you have falsified the predicate of my Proposition by changing points of faith unto that which pertaineth unto faith fundamentall into accessory proper and essentiall into that which is accidentall so have you falsified the subject of the same Proposition for immediately after that distinction of Affirmation and Negation my words were these In those Articles of our English Church our Negation is partly a traversing partly a condemning of your novelties and additions and therfore no part of our faith for no man would deny his owne faith Thus farre in my former Answer as also in a few lines after my words were these The first instance of Negation in our Articles is part of the sixth Article concerning those Bookes of Esdras Tobit Iudith c. whereby it appeareth manifestly that I spake not of Negatives revealed in Scripture but of Negatives in Doctrines Ecclesiasticall Now that you should argue from Negatives in Scripture to Negatives out of Scripture is à baculo ad angulum from the staffe to the corner my Tenet therefore is that Negatives revealed in Scripture are res fidei per accidens non per se Negatives not revealed in Scripture are not res fidei