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A33161 The five days debate at Cicero's house in Tusculum between master and sophister.; Tusculanae disputationes. English Cicero, Marcus Tullius.; Wase, Christopher, 1625?-1690. 1683 (1683) Wing C4307; ESTC R11236 182,432 382

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and count as inconsiderable all the chances of Humane Life Temperance will come with her which is also Moderation and by me a little before call'd Frugality or Staidness which will suffer you to do nothing basely nothing lewdly Now what is more base or lewd than an Effeminate man Nay Justice will not permit you to behave your self in such sort though she seem to have the least relation to this business which yet will thus bespeak you that you are on a double account injurious both in that you covet what is none of your own since being born Mortal you aspire to the condition of the Immortal and in that you take offence to restore what you only borrow'd but what Apology will you make to Prudence instructing you that Vertue is self-sufficient not only to living Well but also Happily which if it depend on Foraign Accessions and have not as its source from so its resort to it self and in the same Circle comprising all its Pretensions borrows nothing from abroad I know no reason why it either should be thought worthy to be so much extoll'd in words or so eagerly courted in Life Epicurus if you sound to me a chace after these Goods I obey pursue follow your self my Commander nay further I forget my Evils and so much the easier because I do not so much as put these Afflictions into the rank of things truly Evil. But you draw off my thoughts to Pleasures Of what sort Bodily ones I suppose or such as the Soul in order to the Body entertains by remembrance of them past or hopes of others to come Is there any thing else in the case Do I rightly explain your Sense For those of that Perswasion are still wont to charge us that we do not comprehend Epicurus what he means why this he means and that paultry Greek s old Zeno the most subtle Disputant of all that Tribe was wont with great heat and aloud in my hearing at Athens to argue that the man is happy who enjoys present Pleasure and hath a confidence that he shall enjoy the like either through the whole or a great part of his Life uninterrupted by any Pain or if he were disturb'd by any that if it were in Extremity would be but short or if it prov'd longer would have a greater mixture of Joy than Evil he that consider'd these things would be happy especially if he were satisfy'd with the good things already enjoy'd t and had no dreadful apprehensions of the Deity s Old Zeno. There are diverse of the same name as Zeno Cittieus the Stoick also Zeno Sidonius here mention'd the Epicurean and in Philo's judgment the chief of them t And had no dreadful apprehension of the Deity Superstition is joyn'd with a dread of God as a strict Avenger and inexorable This partial apprehension should be set right by a due consideration of the Divine Nature and Goodness and not by discharging God of the Government of the World with the Complement of a Writ of Ease SECT XVIII And verify'd in the Case of Thyestes Aeetes Telamon YOU have Epicurus's Scheam of Happiness drawn up in the words of Zeno so that it is in vain to deny it What now can the Proposal and Contemplation of this Life administer any relief either to Thyestes or Aeetes before mention'd or to u Telamon chas'd from his Country and living in Want and Banishment upon whom this Admiration was made Is this that Telamon late renown'd and fear'd Whose looks the wond'ring Greeks so much rever'd Now if any one as the same Poet saith both Courage and Estate hath lost a Cordial is to be sought from those ancient grave Philosophers not from these Sensualists For what do they call a Store of Goods Grant them that to be without Pain is the chiefest Good although that be not properly call'd Pleasure but we cannot at once speak to all Questions Is that the State to which we must be brought over for the relief of our Sorrows Allow what they would have that Pain is the greatest Evil is there any Consequence that he who lies not under it because he is not under Evil must therefore be in Fruition of the greatest Good Epicurus why are we shy and loth to confess that we speak of that Pleasure which your own self when you have braz'd your Forehead are wont to speak out Are these your words or no in that very Book which contains the System of your whole Doctrine you say these words For I will perform the Office of a strict Interpreter least any one should think it a Fiction of my own In truth I am at a loss what to apprehend for that good abstracting from those delights which arise from the tast abstracting also from those which are convey'd by the hearing of Musical Aires abstracting likewise from those agreeable Impressions which are made on the Eyes by the sight of comely objects or any other Pleasures which are rais'd through the whole man from any Sense whatever nor can it truly be said that the Joy of the mind is only to be reckon'd upon as good for I have known the mind upon that very account transported with joy upon hopes of all these things above-nam'd that Nature would come to enjoy them and be freed from Pain Now all this he saith in the very words that any man may perceive what Pleasure Epicurus means Then a little after he saith I have often enquir'd of those that pass for wise men what good they left remaining after they had abstracted from these things unless they would utter a parcel of insignificant Notions and never yet could learn any thing but if they shall fall a canting of Vertues and Perfections they will in effect say nothing more but the means whereby the above-said Pleasures may be compass'd What follows is to the same purpose nay that whole Book which is of the chief good is stuffed with such Sentences and such Expressions Now would you exhort Telamon in the condition mention'd to take to this course of Life that so you might divert the Melancholly or if you should see any of your Friends under great dejection of Spirit would you set before him a Sturgion rather than a Dialogue of Socrates would you invite him to hear the sound of the Organ rather than the words of Plato will you display before him rich and gay Embroidery put a Posie to his Nostrils burn Odours and will you bid him be crown'd with Chaplets of Roses w But if you should go a little farther then you will to be sure have wip'd off all sorrow from him u Telamon chas'd from his Country Aegina the Kingdom of his Father Aeacus w But if you should go a little farther A decent Abruption in recanting Pleasures lest he should particularize in speaking out Obscentities if you should procure him a Mistress SECT XIX and Andromache EPICURUS these things must be confess'd by you or else those other which I have alledg'd according
upon himself and into the good liking of others but there is this difference between knowledge obtained from personal Observation and that which hath been received in Arts and Sciences the former is an Estate raised by one mans labour the latter a Patrimony transmitted to us from that accumulated Industries of many Predecessors let but the same Observer inherit the Studies of former Ages he will more admire God in his Works understand the ground of Duties and be more firm in all Truths University Studies then are useful but for men designed for business short Schemes are necessary such as may instruct Action rather than feed Speculation o A sort of Attick Speakers He reflects on the Sallustian stile consisting not in Periods but broken ends of Sentences such as is found in the Declaimers SECT II. That the Academick Scheme is cautious and modest THOSE things which are to be spoken p in behalf of the Academy we judge to have been accurately enough deliver'd in our four Academick Books though we are so far from being unwilling to be writ against that we desire nothing more for Philosophy had never been in so great Reputation in Greece it self had it not been brought into request by the Disputations and different Judgments of the greatest Scholars Wherefore I exhort all that are able to do it that they would bear away this kind of praise also from Greece that is now growing feeble and that they would bring it into Rome as our Ancestors have by their Study and Industry brought over all other Arts which were thought worth the fetching And indeed the Praise of Orators among us hath been so advanc'd from a mean condition till it is come to the highest pitch that now according to the course of Nature in almost all things declineth and seemeth ready within a very short time to dwindle into nothing Let the Birth of Philosophy in Latin bear date from these times and let us be helping to it and be contented to be disprov'd and confuted which they take impatiently who are as it were pre-engaged and q have espoused certain Dictates of the Doctors of their respective Sects and so lye under a necessity to maintain them for Honors sake though they are often in their Consciences not convinc'd of their Truth We who pursue after probabilities and pretend not to advance farther than to what carrieth with it the appearance of Truth are ready both to disprove without confidence and to be disprov'd without passion Now if these Studies shall be translated to our Country-men we shall not so much as need Greek Libraries in which there is an infinite number of Books by reason of the multitude of Writers For the same things are said over and over again by diverse Persons whereupon they have fill'd the World with Books Which ill consequent will attend our People also if the generality shall break in upon these Studies But let us if we can incite those who to an ingenuous Education have added a Practice of polite Discourse and do handle Philosophical Questions r in an orderly way with proper and conclusive Arguments p In behalf of the Academy The Academy was the School of Plato where he erected a Chair of the Socratick Discipline and endow'd it which in sequel of time through the Benefactions of diverse Professors and Fellow-students in that Sect arrived to a considerable revenue The Doctrine wherein Tully professeth to follow them is that of Probability not to be positive in any question nor loud in dispute but easie of Conviction and ingenuous in Confession of that which carrieth the greatest appearance of Truth q Have espous'd certain Dictates of the Doctors of their respective Sects As the Stoicks and Epicureans but especially the Pythagoreans The being wedded to a Party begets Contention r In an orderly way Methodically SECT III. The Epicurean only regarded by its own followers FOR there is a certain Set of such as assume to themselves the name of Philosophers who are said to have Books enough in Latin which I do not despise for I have never read them but s because the Authors profess themselves that they write neither with distinction of Terms nor distribution of Parts nor elegancy of Language nor any Ornaments I neglect to give that reading which is no ways delightful For none that hath but indifferent Learning can be ignorant what the Disciples of that School say and what they mean Wherefore since they make no regard how they speak I cannot understand how they should be read by any but those of the same Judgment for as all read Plato and the rest of the Socraticks and those downwards which deriv'd from them all I say read them even such as do not approve all in them or are not most zealous Followers of him but Epicurus and Metrodorus hardly any body besides those of their own Sect taketh them into his hands so they only read these Latin ones which think their Doctrines to be true But our judgment is that whatsoever is publish'd should bring with it that respect to the publick as to be commended to the reading of all Scholars nor because we may be not so able our selves as to perform it are we therefore less of the mind that so it ought to be done Therefore I always lik'd that Custom of the Peripateticks and Academy to argue upon all Subjects on both sides not only because that which is likely in every matter can no other ways be found out but all because it is the best exercise of speaking well which Aristotle first used then they who came after him but in our memory Philo whom we have frequently heard set up reading Oratory at one time and Philosophy at another to which Custom we being perswaded by some familiar Friends spent in that business what time we had to stay in our House at Tusculum therefore when in the Morning we had been at Declamations as we had done the day before after Noon we came down t into the Academy and what Disputation was there held we deliver not by way of report but near word for word as it was there managed and controverted s Because the Authors profess themselves that Epicurus and his Followers avow'd a contempt of Logick and Rhetorick his Writings are by way of Epistle Sentences are continued Treatises as the Socratick by Dialogue and Aristotelick by Disputation t Into the Academy Two Members of the Mannor-House at Tusculum were an Academy or Cloyster and Garden below in imitation of the School of Plato and Lyceum or Gallery above after that of Aristotle SECT IV. The bad life of some Teachers is only scandal to their Persons not Doctrines AS therefore we were walking the Discourse fell in after this manner and was introduc'd from such a beginning S. u It is not to be express'd how much I was pleas'd or rather edified with your yesterdays dispute for although I am not conscious to my self that I was ever over-fond of Life yet sometimes
furnish us any Argument more firmly to believe this undertaking of Philosophy SECT VIII Whether Vertue alone be sufficient to Happiness but not compleat Happiness S. I Wish it indeed but there is somewhat wherein I am dissatisfied for I submit that of the Positions you have made one is consequent to the other that as if what thing be honest that only is good it followeth that an happy Life is effected by Vertue so if an happy Life consists in Vertue nothing is good but Vertue n But your Friend Brutus upon the Principle of Aristus and Antiochus hath not the same Sentiment for he thinks although there be something else good besides Vertue M. How now do you think I will speak any thing in opposition to Brutus S. Nay for that as you please for it is not my part to direct you M. What then is consequent upon what Supposition refer to another place for that was a difference between me and Antiochus often and lately with Aristus o when being General I lodg'd at his House for I did not think any man could be happy in the midst of Evils but that a Wise man might be in the midst of Evils if there were any corporal or external Evils These things were discours'd which Antiochus hath also written in many places that Vertue of it self can effect an happy Life but not the most happy then that most things were denominated from their major part although some part of them were wanting as Strength Health Riches Honour Glory which are judg'd by their nature not their number in like manner a happy Life though it were in some part deficient yet gain'd its name from far the greater part To examine these things particularly is not at present very necessary although to me they seem to be spoken not over-consistently For I neither understand what he that is happy needs to make him more happy p for if he want any thing he is not happy and for the denomination and estimate of every thing from its greater part sometimes that may be in force so to do but when they say there are three sorts of Evils he that is press'd with all Evils of two of these sorts so as to have all cross'd in his Estate a Body oppress'd and worn out with all Diseases shall we say he wants but a little of an happy Life not only of one most happy This is that which Theophrastus could not maintain for having resolv'd that Stripes Rackings Crucifixions Overthrows of our Country Banishments Losses of Children had great influence on living ill and miserably he durst not speak big and loftily having entertain'd mean and low Sentiments n But your Friend Brutus upon the Principle of Aristus and Antiochus Tully had before Section 5. check'd his Auditor with the Authority of Brutus that Vertue was sufficient to render Life happy therefore there was no other good he now retorts that Authority upon him for Brutus having heard Antiochus of Ashketon and afterwards his Brother Aristus held that Vertue was not sufficient to render Life most happy Antiochus had been Auditor of Philo but set up a new Academy which brought in a Syncretism of Stoicks with Peripateticks this Tully impugns and supports the Person of a rigid Stoick o When being General I lodg'd at his House In his return from his Government of Asia for having there routed a Party of High-land Cilicians and taken their Town Pindenissum he was by the Army saluted General in the Field after the old Roman fashion carried his Lictors with their Bundles garnish'd with Lawrel to Athens homeward took up his Quarters with Aristus there and assay'd to enter Rome in Triumph p For if he want any thing he is not happy In this Life as Vertue is imperfect so is Happiness incompleat SECT IX Of the three sorts of Goods HOW well is not the question sure it is consistently with his Principles Therefore I am not wont to like a denying the consequent of that the antecedent whereof you have granted Now this most elegant and learned of all the Philosophers is not much censur'd for holding three sorts of Goods but he is baited by all first for that Book which he writ of an Happy Life wherein he brings many Arguments why a man in Torture and upon the Cross cannot be Happy in the same Book he is also reputed to say that Happiness of Life cannot come upon the Wheel He no where saith that in Terms but what he saith amounts to as much Can I then after I have granted one that bodily Pains are Evils that Shipwracks of Estate are Evils can I be angry with that man for saying that all good men are not Happy when all good men are liable to those things which he accounts Evils the same Theophrastus is further harass'd both by the Books and Disputations of all the Philosophers for quoting that Sentence in his Callisthenes Fortune not Wisdom guide the Life of man They say never came more lasche word out of the mouth of Philosopher and true it is what they say yet I do not understand how any thing could have been more consistent for if there are so many good things belonging to the Body so many extrinsick to it all under the Power of chance and Fortune is it not naturally consequent upon this Principle that Fortune who is Mistress both of external Circumstances and corporal endowments should have a larger Empire than Humane Counsels or had we better imitate Epicurus who oftentimes speaks many excellent things but careth not how agreeable they are or consistent with his Principles He commends a slender Diet Done like a Philosopher but if Socrates or Antisthenes had said it not he who maintains Pleasure to be the chiefest Good He saith none can live pleasantly unless he live also honestly wisely justly No word can be more Grave and becoming a Philosopher unless the same man did make Pleasure the end of his Honesty Wisdom and Justice What can be better said than that Fortune hath little dealing with a Wise man but doth he say so who having affirm'd Pain to be not only the greatest but also the only Evil may be seiz'd upon with the sharpest Pains all his Body over at that very time when he is in his highest Rants against Fortune The same too saith Metrodorus and in better words yet Fortune I have prevented you and barricado'd up all the Avenues that you can no ways attack me Excellently well had q Aristo the Cian or the Stoick Zeno said it who accounted nothing Evil but what was Dishonest But you Metrodorus who have buried all your Good in Back and Belly having defin'd the chief Good to consist in a firm Constitution of Body and a strong Presumption of its continuance have you bar'd up the Avenues against Fortune which way for you may in a Moment be strip'd of that your Good q Aristo the Cian Of Ceos Isle He held all things beside Vertue and Vice indifferent SECT X. The