Donatisme pag. 622 The Replyer put to the proofe of his ceremonies 614 The Replier tripped in his own net pag. 693 T. C. teacheth S. Augustine to speak pag. 609 The marke that the Replyer shoteth at 56 The drift of the Replier 315 T. C. forsaketh the Apostolical form in Election 193. 195 ¶ Telesphorus a good Bishop 6 2 ¶ Theodoret had gouernement of 800. churches 415. 472 Theodoret of Chrysostome 412 ¶ Thracia annexed to the Archbisshoprike of Constantinople 413 ¶ Of these wordes Take thou eate thou 600 ¶ Diuersitie of Tymes require a diuerse gouernement c. 174. c. ¶ Timothies authoritie 401 Timothie Bishop of Ephesus 404 c. 470. Timothie oft absent from Ephesus pag. 236 The iurisdiction that Timothie vsed in some respect ciuill 769 ¶ Titus Archbishop of Creta 325. 400. 431. 470. ¶ Titles of dignitie in ministers not Antichristian 353 Honorable Titles of Bishops 448 Men called by vndeserued Titles 70 71. Titles in the church vnder the lawe whereof God is not the expresse author 304 ¶ The othe of the fellowes of Trinitie Colledge in Cambridge 1. 235. Trinitie Colledge and the fellowes deliuered frō the slaunderous Replye 745 ¶ The maintenance of Truth as necessarie as the suppression of errours 496 ¶ It is not better to frame our ceremonies to Turkes than to papists pag. 471 V. ¶ Vanitie 351 ¶ Omne verum à spiritu Sancto est pag. 551. 552 ¶ Vicars or substitutes 681 ¶ Victor a good Bishop 510 ¶ Vix what it importeth 796 ¶ Vniuersitie landes stand on the same pinne with Bishops 452. ¶ Vse of things wickedly inuented pag. 273. c. Priuate vse of Idolatrous things forbidden 272 Common vse of Idolatrous things page 273 The vse and abuse of things indifferent 276 ¶ Vsurpe both in Ministring and preaching offend God 520 W ¶ VVa er cakes 596 ¶ VVatchmen and Sheapheards 220 237. ¶ The weake not offended with apparell 〈◊〉 In what sort of indifferent thinges we ought to respect the weake 258. ¶ VVhoremongers in the visible Church 1 ¶ VVickednesse of men causeth not lawes to be euill 1 4 ¶ VVidowes 6 ¶ VVine and Bread consecrated too Idols 275. 276 ¶ Froward wittes 481 ¶ VVhen a woman maye preach Christ. 50 The cause of the VVomans absence from the Church after her deliuerance 53 The VVomans vayle 53 ¶ Strife about wordes proper to q rell rs 5 ¶ VVhat it is to adde and to take away from the VVord 1 Difference betwixt the worshipping of the true God falsly and 〈◊〉 Gods 27 ¶ Mens writings read in the chur pag. 7 The occasion and circumstances of mens writings must bee considered 114. 292 Z ¶ Zuinfildians condemne reading pag. 252. 569. 71 ¶ The Zeale of the Replier 36 Preposterous Zeale 48 The Printer to the Readers I could not be but that in so great a volume some things should escape euen those that are diligent and carefull I especially considering the speedie dispatch and other circumstances notwithstanding if before you enter to reade this booke you will take the paynes to mende these faulces with your pen the rest being lighter will not greately stay your course in reading or otherwise alter the sense and meaning Fare you well Pag. 2. line 8. reade plainly Pag. 21. line 22. for priuately reade priu ly Pag. 50. line vlti for I speake not of their opinions reade I speake not of all their opinions Pag. 62. line 38 reade in these Pag. 67. line 37. for or reade for Pag. 78. line 34. reade and seeking helpe of the Egyptians Pag. 104. lin 22. for abiunde reade aliunde Pag. 124. line 45. reade Is homo Pag. 191. line 45. for worde reade wordes Pag. 244. line 13. reade in the euill day Pag. 252. lin 46. for any confession reade my confession pag. 253 lin 7. reade Chap. 1. pag. 254. line 13. reade chap. 1. and line 48. reade Chap. 2. pag. 304. in y ◠margēt reade wherof God pag. 349. line 29. for and reade as pag. 448. line 32. reade 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 468. lin 46. for his own reade this one pa. 481. lin 32. for more reade moue pag. 508. lin 1. reade encomber the Answerer pag. 523. lin 25. reade conuentur pag. 536. line 20. for yll read it pag. 537. lin 42. for those read this pag. 541. line 21. for constraine read restreyne pag. 661. line 20. read thus election of ministers is no correctiō of vice neither yet is the deciding c. pag. 663. line 53. for there reade therefore pag. 665. in the margent for eternal reade externall pag 685. lin 6. reade the. 11. diuision pag. 708. line vit for rather reade either pag. 722. line vlt. adde this heaping vp of scriptures shewe me one place in this epistle yea in pag. 731. line 41. for seruice reade sorow pag. 803. lin 7. reade Gods worde pag. 806. line 4. reade of defiance salued pag. 810. line 41. reade fi ¶ To the Churche of Englande and all those that loue the truth in it T. C. vvisheth mercie and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe AS our men doe more willingly go to warfare and fighte with greater courage agaynst straungers than agaynst their Countreymen so it is with me in this spirituall warfare For I woulde haue wished that this controuersie had beene with the Papistes or with ether if any can be more pestilent and professed e mes of the Churche for that should haue beene lesse griefe to write and more conuenient to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an enimie dothe kindle the desire of fighting and styrreth vp the care of prepa ng the furniture for the warre So I can not tell howe it commeth to passe that the name of a brother aketh that courage and abateth that carefulnesse whiche sheuld be bestowed in defence of the truthe But seeing the truthe ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause ▪ I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lorde mighte lay to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so readie as I ought to haue beene to publishe the truthe he mighte more iustly condemne me if beeing oppugned and slaundered by others I shoulde not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habilitie defende it and delyuer it from the euill reporte that some endeuour to bring vpon it An Answere to the Epistle dedicated by T. C. to the Churche of Englande c. IT doth not appeare by the style and maner of writing vsed in this your booke that there remayneth any portion of suche naturall affection or brotherly loue in you as you would beare the world in hand and séeme to haue by these your wordes For if you should haue written against the veriest Papist in the world the vilest person the ignorantest dolt you could not haue vsed a more spitefull and malicious more slaunderous and reprochfull more contemptuous and disdaynfull kinde of
But you haue not yet proued your doctrine now in question to be that doctrine of the Gospell of saluation These woordes might wel haue ben spoken of the Gospell against Mahometisme Iudaisme Papisme but you doe iniurie to that doctrine of lyfe when you confounde with the same your erroneous contentions about ceremonies and the kinde of gouernment whiche all béeing externall things I thinke not many will make them to be de necessitate salutis of necessitie vnto saluation you haue here sayde nothing of your doctrine but that whiche the Arrians the Pelagians the Papistes the Turkes yea almoste the Anabaptistes will say of theirs for many euen of the Anabaptistes confesse that Magistrates be necessarie but yet not to be lawfull for Christians to be Magistrates and for proof therof they vse diuers of the self same places that the Admonition hath alleaged and you allowed against superioritie in the clergie And except I be deceyued you come verie néere to them for you will haue the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill gouernment so distincte that they can by no meanes concurre in one and the selfe same persons wherby you take from the Ciuil Magistrate authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and by that meanes spoyle him of the one halfe of his iurisdiction But of this matter more at large hereafter as occasion shall be ministred by you In the meane tyme I admonishe the Reader to beléeue youre wordes no farther than he shall sée iust proofe of them T. C. If it be asked of the obedience due vnto the Prince and vnto the Magistrate it answereth that all obedience in the Lorde is to be rendred and if it come to passe that any other be asked it so refuseth that it disobeyeth not in preferring obedience to the greate God before that whiche is to be giuen to mortall man It so resysteth that it submitteth the bodie and goodes of those that professe it to abyde that whiche God will haue them suffer in that case Io. Whitgifte All this is truly spoken of the doctrine of the Gospell but not of the doctrine in controuersie amongst vs and verily this is not plaine dealing to make the reader beléeue that we doe withstande the doctrine of the Gospell when we only resist your contentions about externall matters wherby the doctrine of the Gospel is hindered and the Churche of Christ disturbed T. C. And if it be shewed that this is necessarie for the Churche it can not be but profitable for the common wealth nay the profit of it may easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipline of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kept back from committing of great disorders of stealing adulterie murder c. whylest the smaller faults of lying and vncomely 〈◊〉 of harde and cholerike speaches which the magistrate both not commonly punishe be corrected Io. Whitgifte If it be necessarie for the present state of the Churche it is also profitable for the present state of the cōmon welth for I perceiue no such distinction of the common wealth the church that they should be counted as it were two seueral bodies gouerned with diuers lawes diuers Magistrates except the Church be linked with an heathenish idolatrous cōmon wealth The ciuil Magistrate may not take vpon him What ecclestasticali functions the 〈◊〉 Magistrate may not take vpon him ▪ such Ecclesiastical functiōs as are only proper to the Minister of the Church as preaching of the wordé administring of the Sacramentes excommunicating and suche lyke but that he hath no authoritie in the Churche to make and execute lawes for the Churche and in things pertaining to the Churche as Discipline Ceremonies c. so that he doo nothing agaynst the woorde of God though the Papistes affirme it neuer so stoutely yet is the contrarie moste true and sufficiently proued by men of notable learning as Master Iewell Bishop of Salisburie Maister Horne Bishop of Winchester Maister Nowell Deane of Paules in their bookes written against Papistes holding your assertion to whose painefull and learned writings I res rre the Reader for the auoyding of too muche prolixitie I doe not well vnderstande what is mente by these woordes Naye the profite of it maye easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipliue of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kepte backe from committing of greater disorders of stealyng adulterie murther c. whylest the smaller faultes of lying and vncomely iesting of harde and cholerike speaches whiche the Magistrate dothe not commonly punysh be corrected Doe you not thinke the punishemente for stealing and murther to be sharpe enough or doe you thynke that the feare of the Discipline of the Churche will more terrifie men from these vices than the feare of deathe Or doe you doubte whether the Ciuill Magistrate hathe Authoritye to appoynte anye other punyshemente for these and suche lyke crimes than is prescribed in the Iudiciall Lawe of Moyses For thys is nowe called in controuersie and begynneth to bée table talke or are you perswaded that the Ciuill Magistrate eyther maye not or will not correcte lying vncomely iesting harde and cholerike speaches Or that if these were punished by the Discipline of the Churche men woulde rather be terrified from the greater crymes than they will be if they be punished with ciuill correction Truly I thinke that the ciuill Magistrate hath sufficient authoritie to prouide remedies for all suche mischieues without altering the state eyther of the church or of the cōmon wealth But let the indifferent Reader iudge whether you goe aboute to wring the swoorde out of the Magistrates hand or no or at the least so to order the matter that it be neuer drawne out to punishe vice but with the consent and at the appoyntment of you and your seigniorie T. C. And vndoubtedly seing that the churche and common wealth doe embrace and kisse one an other seing they be like vnto Hypocrates twinnes which were sick together wel together laughed together and weped together and alwayes lyke affected it can not be but that the breaches of the common wealth haue proceeded from the hurts of the Church and the wants of the one from the lackes of the other Neither is it to be hoped for that the common wealth shal florish vntill the Church be reformed Io. Whitgifte All this I grant and God be thanked therfore if we shal measure the state of the church with the florishing estate wise gouernment of the cōmon wealth we shall haue no great cause to complaine but to burste oute into moste hartie thankes vnto God for the same and most humbly desire the continuance therof I do not say that the Churche is without fault for then should I affirme an impossibilitie but I thinke the faultes that are rather to be in the persons than in the lawes rather in the gouernours than in the kinde of gouernment neyther woulde I haue men eyther Puritanes Donatistes or Anabaptists
the truth therfore we must alwayes be altering and changing our religion The Epistle of T. C. Sect. vlt. The summe of al is that the cause may be looked vpon with a single eye without al mist of partialitie may be heard with an indifferent eare without the waxe of preiudice the argumēts of both sides may be weighed not with the changeable weights of custome of time of men which notwithstanding Popish excepted shal be shewed to be more for the cause than against it but with the iust balances of the incorruptible vnchangeable word of God And I humbly beseech the Lord to increase in vs the spirit of knowledge iudgement that we may discern things which differ one from an other and that we may be lyncere and without offence vntill the day of Christe Io. Whitgifte This doe I in lyke maner desyre with all my heart and to the latter ende of it I say Amen The middest if you proue not then shall you be blamed for making such a bragge T. C. The Author to the Reader I Am humbly to craue at thy hand gentle reader that thou wouldest vouchesafe diligently and carefully to compare Maister Doctours answere and my replie bothe that thou mayst the better vnderstād the truth of the cause that the vntempered speches of him especially that whippeth 〈◊〉 desireth hat hich ▪ as much as lieth in him he hath sought to inder other so sharply for them which I haue in a maner altogether passed by and his lose conclusions which I haue to auoyd tediousnesse not so fully pursued may y e better appere which thing as I craue to be done through the whole booke so chiefly I desire it may be done in the beginning where the reader shall not be able so well to vnderstande what is sayd of me vnlesse he haue M. D. booke before him * Vaine nd vn s fficient ex u se why he ha h not et down the answer to the Ad onition The cause of whiche diuersitie rose of that that I fyrste purposed to set down his answer before my replie as he did the Admonition before his answer But afterward considering that his booke being alreadie in the handes of men it woulde be double charges to buye it again And especially weighing with my selfe that through the slownesse of the printe for want of help the repli by that meanes should come forth later than was conuement for although he might commodiously bring in the Admonition being short yet the same coulde not be doone in his booke swelling in that sorte which it dothe I saye these things considered I chaunged my mynde and haue therfore set downe the causes whiche moued me so to doe bicause I knowe that thos if any be whiche haue determined to continue their foreiudged opinions againste the cause whatsoeuer be alleaged wil herevpon take occasion to surmize that I haue lefte out his answere to the ende that it might the lesse appeare wherin I haue passed ouer any weyghte of his reasons wheras had it not bin for these causes which I haue before alleadged my earneste desire was to haue set his answere before my replie wherof I call the Lord to witnesse whom I knowe to be a sharpe iudge against those which shall abuse his holie name to any vntruth Io. Whitgifte You haue well prouided for the comparing of Master Doctors answer with your replie howsoeuer you protest y e your earnest desire was to set it down before your The true ca ses why T. C. sette not downe the answere Replie yet the sequele wil declare the contrarie for it shal euidently appere that therfore you haue omitted it bicause you are loth they should be compared together least your friuolous Replies your childish collections your wilful deprauing your fraudulent dismembring of my booke should manifestly appeare Full wel knew you that your fautours in whose hands especially your bookes are kept would not take pains to compare them both together except they had bin ioyned together that they might haue done it with one labor And suerly herein you haue delt verie vnhonestly with me done me great iniurie and not performed that towards me that you before required of me in one of your pamphlets and doe nowe againe require of me in the end of this booke But wise and indifferent men will soone espie the causes if it will please them to pervse this booke with some diligence My vntempered speaches if they be compared with your floutes disdaynful phrases or with either of y e Admonitiōs wil séeme I am sure verie modest And no doubt you would haue set down some examples of some of them if they had bin such as you would make the reader beleeue But in your booke he may sée the humblenesse of your spirite and iudge whether that one qualitie be founde in you or no which Zuinglius in Zuinglius his booke called Elenchus contra Anabap. and in his bookes de baptismo Ecclesiast and Bullinger in his booke Aduersus Anabap. do say is cōmon to the Anabaptists that is to reuile Bullinger the ministers of the worde and much more bitterly to inuey against them if they withstand their errors than against the Papists Truly if you should haue written against the doggeddest Papist or the pestilentest heretike that euer was you could not haue inuented howe in more spitefull maner to deface him but how truly it resteth in y e tryall Touching lose conclusions it is vnlike that you haue omitted any seing y t you haue famed those to be which are not Wherein your false dealing plainly appereth shal b made manifest Your excuses for omitting my booke in your replie be mere excuses for why should you run in suspition of corrupt dealing for sauing x d. in an other mans purse as for the volume of your booke it would not haue ben much bigger if you had spared your superfluous digressions cut off your vain words kept in your scornful and opprobrious speaches What I think of your protestatiō I haue told you before To his louyng Nurse the Christian Churche of England Io. VVhitgifte a membre and minister of the same vvisheth peace in Christe and continuance of his glorious Gospel euen to the worldes ende THere bee dyuers things and especially fiue that when I fyrste tooke this laboure in hande had almoste vtterly dissuaded mee from the same Fyrste bycause I doe with all my hearte hate contention and stryfe and especially in matters of Religion among suche as professe the selfe same Gospell Secondly for that I feared greatly least some sclaunder myghte tedounde to the Gospell by this open contention seing that God is not the author of contention or confusion but of peace 1. Cor. 14. Thirdly I doubted whether this kinde of dealing by writing might minister matter to the common aduersaries of the Gospel to reioyce and glorie and to flatter themselues the more in their damnable errours Fourthly I
hande and speake things that the eyes and eares of all men fee and heare to be otherwyse 〈◊〉 yo 〈◊〉 them to the Anabaptistes and Donatistes 〈◊〉 friende of yours mighte thinke you sayde 〈◊〉 bycause suche alway s seekyng darke and solitarie places myghte happely haue some fauourers whych are not knowne But when you ioyne them wyth the Papistes whych are commonly knowne to all men whose doctrine they imp gne as (*) And yet in defacing and depr uing this Church of England they fully ioyne wyth them and so oe not I. well as you whose markes and badges they can lesse awaye wyth than you whose companie they flie more than you whose punishment they haue called for more than you for your parte haue done and therefore are condemned of them as ruell when you oftentymes carie awaye the name of myldnesse and moderation whych forsothe knowe as you haue professed no commandement in the Scripture to put heretickes to death when I saye you ioyne them thus wyth the Papistes you doe not nely 〈◊〉 your credite in these vntrue furmises wherein I truste wyth the indifferent reader your neuer had any but you make all other things suspected which you 〈◊〉 so that you gyue 〈◊〉 occasion to take vp the common prouerbe agaynst you I wyll truste you no farther than I see you After you haue thus yoked them with the Papistes you go aboute to shewe wherein they drawe wyth them Wherein I fyrst aske of you if all they that affyrme or doe any thyng that the enimyes of the Churche doe are forthwith oyned and conspired with them against the Church what (a) I say that neither Christe nor Paule ioyned either with Gentil Phariseis or false Apostles against the church say you to S. Paule that ioyned wyth the * Pharise s Act. 23. v. 6 in the resurrection with the false Apostles in taking no * wages of the Corinthians our 2. Cor. II. v. 12. Sauiour Christ which spake agaynst the Jewes which were then the onely people of God as the Gentils dyd which were their enimyes will you saye therefore that eyther Sainte Paule Cor. 9. ioyned wyth the Phariseys or false Apostles agaynst the Churche or that our Sauiour Christ ioyned agaynst the Jewes wyth the Gentils but let vs see your slaunders particularly Io. Whitgifte The same Salomon sayth that in the mouthe of the foolyshe is the roote of pride Pro. 14. c. Euen so it falleth oute with you for whylest with suche proude wordes you séeke to dryue at me you doe but condemne your selfe of follye Pylate and Herode Men of contrarie iudgements ioyne togither against the truthe were at enimitie betwi te them selues and yet they wyned together againste Christ The Phariseis and Saduces were of contrarie opinions yet were they both enimyes to the doctrine of Christ. The Turke and the Pope be of contrarie Religions yet doe they both conspire agaynst the Gospell Papistes and Anabaptistes agrée not eyther in opinion or in societie yet doe they both séeke to deface the Church of Christe Euen so they thoughe they impugne the doctrine of the Papists neuer so ly cast away their markes and badges neuer so farre from them though they cannot abyde theyr companie yet doe they wyth them by the same assertions thoughe not by the same argumentes assaulte this Churche of Englande and bende their force against it Dyd not the seditious Iewes within Ierusalem ioyne wyth the Romains beyng their enimyes inprocuring the destruction of that Citie you are not so ignoraunt as you woulde séeme to be I am sure you vnderstande my meaning Howe or where you haue called for the punishement of the Papistes more than I haue 〈◊〉 and therefore you counted cruell and I made and moderate certaynely I knowe not I heare onely your selfe saye so What I haue done and where I minde not to bragge of at this time I leaue that for you What I haue professed concernyng the putting to deathe of Herotickes the same doe I professe still and am ready thereof to gyue an accompte at all tymes as I shal be required although neyther you nor any man else haue heard me teach that doctrine or professe it but thys is one of your glances by the waye when occasion is gyuen me to speake of that matter I wyll plainely vtter my conscience by the grace of God In the meane tyme it is no cause why I shoulde be better thoughte of among the Papistes for bothe theyr practise and theyr doctrine is eleane contrarie To your question I answere that if they doe that against the Church which the enimyes doe against the same then doe they in that conspire wyth them against the Churche and therefore all your example 〈◊〉 vsed are to no purpose at all For Saynt Paule ioyned wyth the Phariseys and wyth the false Propheteo in those thyngs which were allowed of the Churche and for the commoditie of the Church and therefore in no respecte agaynst the Churche the same answere I make to the example of Christe iustly reprouing the Iewes if you woulde haue vsed apte examples for your purpose then shoulde you haue broughte in suche as beyng of contrarie iudgementes haue notwythsta dyng soughte to ouerthrowe one and the selfe same thing althoughe by diuers meanes But then shoulde you haue concluded agaynst your selfe as you must of necessitie dee So that here where you would séeme to say much you haue saide nothing at all Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. pag. 5. Sect. vlt. First the Papistes affirme that we are not the true Churche no that we haue not so much as the outward face and she we of the true Church and so doe these men almost in flat and playne termes T. C. pag. 8. Sect. 1. They doe not denie but there is a visible Church of God in England and therefore your sayings of them that they doe almost in plaine and flat termes say that we haue not so muche as any outwarde face and shewe of the true Church argueth that you haue almost no loue in you whieh vpon one word once vttered contrarie to the tenour of their booke and course of their whole life surmise this of them and how truely you conclude of that word scarce it shall appeare when we come to that place Io. Whitgifte They doe in playne and flat termes write as muche as I doe reporte of them in this article for a manyfest proofe thereof referre the reader to the. 6. page of the seconde Admonition and the. 53. of the first Admonition and to the whole discourse of both My almost is equiualent to they ▪ searse But whosoeuer shall well considèr the tenour of theyr bookes and the course of their lyfe may easily vnderstande that both I myghte haue leftē oute my almost and they theyr scarse lykewise Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect. 1. Secondly the Papistes say that we haue no ministerie no Byshops no pastours bicause they
question I omit that whyche he speaketh of this matter in his booke de sancto spiritu Idem where althoughe he gyueth too muche authoritie to vnwritten traditions yet dothe it there appeare that many thyngs were then vsed in the Church of Christ whyche were not expressed in the worde of God I myghte here alleage Socrates who Socrates in his sifte Booke and. 22. Chapter of hys ecclesiasticall historie handleth this matter at large and speakyng of Easter he saythe The Apostle and the Gospell doe in no place laye a bonde of seruitude vpon them whyche come to the preaching But men them selues haue euery one according as they thoughte meete in theyr countryes celebrated of custome the feast of Easter and other feastes for the resting from laboure and the remembrance of the healthfull passion c. and in the same Chapter No Religion obserueth the same rytes althoughe it embrace the same doctrine of them for they doe differ among themselues in rytes whiche are of the same fayth And so he procéedeth in declaryng the varietie of Ceremonyes and other obseruances and rytes in the Churches whereby it is manyfest that by hys Indgement many things are committed to the disposition of the Churche whyche are not expressed in the worde of God And that the Churche hathe vsed thys libertie from tyme to tyme to the same effecte speaketh Sozome Lib. 7. Cap. 19. They he meaneth Policarpus and Victor thought Sozome it follye and not wythoute cause to be separated one from another for Ceremonyes or Customes whyche dyd agree in the principall poyntes of Religion for you can not fynde the same rytes and altogether lyke in all Churches no thoughe they doe agree together I myghte pester thys Booke and that you knowe well enoughe wyth the iudgement of all the auncient Fathers that haue any occasion to speake of this matter but these maye suffice to declare that I haue not vainely vsed their names for mutes on the stage Touchyng Councels I maruayle you wyll make any doubte of them whervnto Councels of things indifferent tende the moste of theyr Canons in matters of Ceremonyes and gouernmente of the Churche but to teache that the Scriptures haue not expressed all thyngs concernyng the same bnt lefte them to the order and appoyntment of the Churche I praye you where shall you fynde in the Scripture the. 13. Canon Ancyrani Conci de vicarijs Episcoporum eorum potestate or the. 15. non debere pr sbyteros Ancyranum ecclesiastica iura vendere and diuerse others in the same Councell or the. 11. Canon Concil Nencaes Nicaenum Neocaesari of the certayne age of hym that ought to be minister or the. 1. Canon Concil Nicaeni of Enuches the fourth of ordering Byshoppes the sixte of Metropolitans the seuenth of the Byshop of Ierusalem the twentith of standyng in the tyme of Prayer or the. 7. Canon Concil Gangren or the. 18. or 20. or y e. 11. 15. 18. 19. c. Concil Arelatens Gangrense Arelatens But what shoulde I trouble the reader wyth suche particular rehearsals of so manye Councels whiche haue made suche a number of Canons concernyng suche matters as muste be ordered in the Churche whereof the Scripture hath particularly determyned nothyng is it not therefore manyfest that Councels both generall and prouinciall by their actes declare that touchyng Cer monyes discipline and gouernment of the Churche many things are lefte to the discretion of the Church whiche be not expressed in the Scriptures And whereas you charge me for not alleaging of Scriptures if I woulde Scriptures of things indifferent wythoute discretion cyte places nothyng pertayning to the purpose as you hytherto haue done I coulde vse a number but I had rather haue one texte to my purpose than a hundred wroong and wrested as yours be Howebeit there is no cause why you shoulde as yet complayne for hitherto I haue alleaged moe than you haue answered To the. 1. Cor. 14. as yet vnanswered I maye ioyne that which the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Cor. 11. 2. Apostle sayth 1. Cor. 11. Quemadmodùm tradidi vobis instituta tenetis You keepe the ordinances as I delyuered them to you The whych wordes Maister Caluine expoundyng sayth on thys sorte I doe not denye but that there were some traditions of the Apostles Caluine not written but I doe not graunt them to haue beene taken as partes of doctrine or necessarie vnto saluation VVhat then euen suche as dyd pertayne to order and pollicie For vve knovve that euerie Churche hathe libertie to ordayne and appoint suche a forme of gouernment as is apte and profitable for it bycause the Lorde therein hath prescribed no certainetie So Paule the firste founder of the Church of Corinthe dyd also frame it wyth honest and godly institutions that all things might there be done decently ▪ and in order And that also which is in the end of the Chapter Other things wyll I set in order when I come Wherevpon the same Maister 1. Cor. 11. 34. Caluine Caluine sayth But let suche toyes passe seyng that it is certaine that Paule speaketh but of externall comelynesse the vvhiche as it is put in the libertie of the Churche so it is to be appoynted accordyng to the tyme places and persons In déede I glory not in wordes so muche of the Scriptures as yeu d ee but I truste that I haue as sure grounde there for anye thyng that I haue affyrmed as you haue and muche more else woulde I be sorye It is not beasting of the Scriptures in wordes and falsely applying of them that can cary away the matter with those that be learned and wyse you knowe what Maister Caluine saythe of the Anabaptists in hys Booke written against them Quià verò nulla specie illustriore seduci possunt miseri Caluin aduersus Anabap. Why the Anabaptists alwayes pretended the worde of God Christiani c. But bicause the wofull Christians whiche with a zeale doe followe God can not by any other more notable shewe be seduced than when the worde of God is pretended the Anabaptistes agaynst whome we write haue that euermore in their mouthe and alwayes talke of it And yet in lawfull matters not expressed in the Scriptures I knowe not to whome we shoulde resorte to knowe the vse and antiquitie of them but to the Councels stories and doctors The opinion of S. Augustine of things indifferent Chap. 3. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 23. Sect. 1. That notable learned Father Augustine hathe diuerse sayings Augustin touchyng thys matter worthy to be noted In his Epistle ad Casulanum 86. he sayth thus In his rebus de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt in those thyngs vvherein the holy Scripture hathe determined no certainetie the custome of the people of God the traditions or decrees of our forefathers are
is no néede or a more vehement purgation than is conuenient for the disease or minister it out of time or giue one purgation for an other c. what rumbling and stirre soeuer follow in the bodye he may be iustly sayde to be the author and cause of them Do you not knowe what Zuinglius sayeth in his Ecclesiast speaking of Anabaptistes If they were sente of God Zuinglius i Ecclesi st Id m de bapti mo and endued with the spirite of loue they would haue construed in the beste parte those externall things c. And againe Christe neuer made any contention for externall thinges and in his booke de Baptismo They go aboute innouations of their owne priuate authoritie c. I vse M. Caluines iudgement as I vse the iudgement of other learned men neyther will I refuse any learned mans opinion in these controuersies that truly and wholly vnderstandeth the state of this Church and the grounde of all thinges vsed in it But I doubt how you will hereafter stand to this offer ¶ The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent Chap. 5. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag 29. Sect. 5. 6. Of the same iudgement in this matter is M. Bucer as it appeareth Bucer of things indifferent in his Epistle to M. Alasco these be his wordes If you vvill not admit such libertie and vse of vesture to this pure and holie Church bycause they haue no commaundement of the Lord nor example of it I doo not see hovv you can graunt to any Church that it may celebrate the Lordes Supper in the morning and in an open Churche especially consecrated to the Lorde that the Sacrament may be distributed to men kneeling or standing yea to vvomen as vvell as to men For vvee haue receiued of these things neither commaundement of the Lorde nor any example yea rather the Lorde gaue a contrarie example For in the euening and in a priuate house he did make his Supper and distributed the Sacramentes and that to men only and sitting at the table Haec Bucerus But to ende this matter is it not as lawfull for a godlie Prince with the aduise and consent of godlie and lerned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church and lawes Ecclesiasticall as it is for euery priuate man to vse what maner and forme of seruice he list and other order aud discipline in his own parish which these men seeke and striue to doe T. C. Page 20. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Pag. 21. Sect. 1. And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer and Musculus and Bullinger Gualter and Hemingius and the rest of the late writers by citing of whome you woulde gyue to vnderstande that they are agaynste vs in these matters there is set downe in the latter ende of this booke their seuerall iudgements of the moste of these thinges whiche are in controuersie whereby it maye appeare that if they haue spoken one woorde agaynste vs they haue You do learned mē great iniury in accusing thē of contrarietie spoken two for vs. And whereas they haue written as it is said and alieadged in their priuate letters to their friends agaynst some of these causes it may appeare that they haue in their works published to the whole world that they confirme the same causes So that if they wrote any such things they shall be found not so much to haue dissented from vs as from themselues and therefore we appeale from themselues vnto themselues and from their priuate notes and letters to their publike writings as more autenticall You laboure still in the fire that is vnprofitable to bring M. Bucer his Epistle to proue that the Church may order thinges whereof there is no particular and expressed commaundement for there is none denieth it neyther is this saying that all things are to be done in the Church according to the rule of the word of God any thing repugnant vnto this that the Church may ordeyne certayne things according to the word of God But if this Epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the booke of common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as (1) You cannot but vnderstand that they are printed I cannot vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniury which go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them whiche we can neyther heare nor see being kepte close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouertie and nakednesse of it being fame to ransacke and ruffle vp euery darke corner to find something to couer it with Therefore it were good before you tooke any benefyte of them to let them come foorthe and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and full out For now you giue men occasion to thinke that there are some other thinges in their Epistles whiche you would be loth the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is (2) What say you than to the. 14. reason of the Admonition then ministers were not so tyed to any forme of prayers c. no man that sayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the Churche where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no man seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hathe left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other things to vse that which shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the Church aud confirmed by the prince And wheras you haue euer hitherto giuen the ordering of these things to the Church how come you now to (3) An vn truth for I gyue it not to the Byshops only but to a godly Prince with the aduice and consent of godly and learned Byshops and other of the wisest ascribe it to the Byshops you meane I am sure the Byshops as we call Byshops here in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the Papists vnawares whiche when they haue spoken many things of the Churche inagnifically at the last they bring it now to the doctours of the Church now to Byshops As for me although I doubt not but there be many good men of the Byshops and very learned also and therefore very meete to be admitted into that consultation whereinit shall be considered what things are good in the Church yet in respect of that office and calling of a Byshop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister and pastour of the Churche hath more interest and righte in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any Byshop or Archbishop in the Realme for as much as he hath an ordinarie calling of God and function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how this authoritie perteyning to the
to the word and yet not conteyned in the worde Men may haue an opinion of Religion and merite in suche thinges as they thinke not to be of necessitie to saluation To be shorte men may make that sinne whych the worde of God maketh not sinne as all those doe whiche forbid the vse of indifferent things and make the same vnlawfull as I haue sayde before You sée nowe that there is no one parte of this diuision as you call it which dothe not include something not conteyned in the other partes and therfore all those vnséemely and immodest tauntes and words mighte haue bin forborne I aske no forgiuenesse of you for any thing that I haue wrytten But I beséeche God forgyue you your outrageous contemptes and vnchristian floutes and iestes where with your booke is more pestered than any of Hardinges is where he sheweth him selfe moste scurrilous But I will omit them all and onely desire the Reader to consider of what spirite they come and in bothe our writings to respecte the matter not the person Touching the exposition of the places of Deut. let the learned Reader compare it with the expositions of the learned Interpreters and then iudge of my vnskilfull The Replier hath spēt many wordes in confuting that which he him selfe cōfesseth diuiding and defyning Here now I wold gladly know what T. C. hath proued agaynst the thing y t I haue here writtē or how he hath iustified y e propositiō of y e Admonition which I haue refelled for the sūme of al is this The authors of the Admonitiō say that those things onely are to be placed in the Churche which God him selfe in his worde commaundeth This I confesse to be true in matters of saluation and damnation But I saye it is vntrue in matters of ceremonies rites orders discipline and kinde of gouernmente which béeing externall matters and alterable are to be altered and chaūged appoynted and abrogated according to time place and person so that nothing be done agaynst the worde of God And T. C. confesseth page 15. that Pag. 15. Sect. 5. certayne things are lefte to the order of the Churche bicause they are of that nature which are varied by tymes places persons and other circumstances and so could not at once be set downe and established for euer and yet so lefte to the order of the Churche as that it doe nothing agaynst the rules aforesayde The same dothe he affirme in effecte in this place Nowe I pray you tell me what difference is there in our wordes he saythe that certayne thinges are lefte to the order of the Churche c. so that nothing bee done agaynst the rules aforesayde And I saye that the Church hath authoritie to appoynt orders rites ceremonies c. so that nothing be done agaynst the worde of God In déede he goeth muche further in this matter than I doe for where I saye The Scripture expresseth all things necessarie to saluation he affirmeth that many things are bothe commaunded and forbidden c. as I haue before noted and is to Pag. 13. Sect. 2. be séene page 13. of his booke But to ende this matter I haue iustified my assertion by the scriptures 1. Cor. 14. Act. 6. and. 15. 1. Cor. 11. Also by the testimonies of Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Cyprian Ambrose Basill Augustine c. Likewise by the practises of Councels the reporte of Historiographers as Socrates and Sozomenus Finally by the iudgement of late writers M. Caluin and Bucer Now will I also adde a fewe wordes for the further confirmation of the same and so ende this question ¶ The opinion of other late wryters of things indifferent The. 7. Chapter Zuinglius in his booke de baptis after that he had declared howe the Scripture contayneth Zuinglius all thinges necessarie vnto saluation he sheweth That in externall things and matters of ceremonies many things are to be vsed in the Churche whiche be not contayned in the Scriptures And speaking of this place Philip. 3. If any think otherwise God will also reueale the same vnto you neuerthelesse in that wherevnto we are come let vs proceede by one rule or agree among our selues saythe That the Apostle there speaketh of nothing else than of externall ceremonies and rites the vse and administration whereof the same Apostle in that place affyrmeth to be in our vvill and povver so that vve doe nothing repugnant to the commaundement of God Neyther trouble the publyke peace whereof we oughte to haue especiall regarde for externall thinges These be the very wordes of Zuinglius in the which there is first to be noted the interpretation of the words of the Apostle Philip. 3. Secondly that he vseth Collections out of Zuinglius this exception So that we doe nothing repugnant to the commaundement of God which T. C. so muche misliketh The same Zuinglius in the same booke verifieth in playne wordes that whiche I before haue touching a negatiue argument from the authoritie of the Scriptures Peter Martyr vpon the. 1. Corinth 1. wryteth That there be three kindes of traditions P. Martyr one expressed in the Scriptures an other playne repugnant to the worde of God The thirde neither contrarie to the worde of God nor yet necessarily ioyned to the same in the vvhich vve muste obey the Churche These three cautions beeing obserued First that they be not obtruded as worship of God or peculiar holynesse but as pertayning to order and the ciuill commoditie of the Churche and to comelynesse in diuine actions for all thinges be sufficiently contayned in Scriptures that pertayne to the worshipping of God and holynesse Secondly that they be not counted so necessarie but that they may be altered if time require Let the Churche keepe hir interest and authoritie in these indifferent things to appoynt vvhat shall be thoughte most necessarie and meete to edifying Last of all that the people of God be not burdened with to great a multitude of them Thus farre Martyr Gualter in his preface to the first Epistle to the Corinth after that he hath declared Gualter the diuersitie of rites vsed in diuerse Churches concludeth on this sort VVherefore S. Augustine writing to Ianuarius after that he had layde forth diuerse ceremonyes of Churches obserued in his time dyd very well thinke that this shoulde be the most safe rule vnto Christian men if they did frame them selues vnto those Churches wherevnto they should come in those things which might be done without any preiudice vnto fayth and godlynesse his wordes are these There is in these things meaning customes and rytes no better rule or instruction for a graue and wise Christian than that he do after that manner the which he seeth vsed of the Church vnto the which he shall peraduenture come c. The which moderation if all men woulde vse at this day there would be lesse contention in the Church neither shoulde Christian libertie be abridged by the superstitious traditions
neeessarie to sende my brother Epaphroditus to you my companion in laboure and fellovv souldiour euen your messanger and he that ministred vnto me suche thinges as I vvanted Collossians 1. verse 7. As ye also learned of Epaphras our deare fellovve seruant vvhich is for you a faythful minister of Christ. Quorsum haec Howe proue these places that all Ministers then preached That of Luke chapter 9. proueth aswell that they cured diseases as that they preached and therefore out of that place you mighte aswell conclude that all Ministers oughte to be curers of sicknesses aswell as preachers This I wryte onely to let you vnderstande your vanitie and ignoraunce in quoting so many Scriptures to so small purpose Io. Whitgifte Ad haec ne verbum quidem but onely to the place of the nynthe of Luke and that out of place Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 52. Sect. vlt. I wishe that euery minister were a preacher but that beeing vnpossible as the state is now I see not how you can cōdemne reading Fayth commeth by reading ministers seeing reading is necessarie in the Church fayth cōmeth aswel by reading the scriptures in the booke as by rehearsing of thē without booke In the. 31. of Deut. it is thus written Leges verba legis huius coram omni Israel c. Thou shalt reade the vvords of this booke before all Israell c. S. Paule sayth in the. 15. to the Rom. 〈◊〉 scripta sunt c. VVhatsoeuer is vvritten c. But I neuer heard reading of the scriptures The Zuinfildians condemne reading of scripture reading of prayers reading of Homilies taken out of the scripture condemned but onely by the Authors of this booke and by the zuinfildians T. C. Page 50. Sect. vlt. Pag. 51. Sect. 1. If you should beget and be a father of many bookes and all your children like their eldest brother you would without better aduise shake many groundes of our religion For heere agayne you wishe that all pastors were able to teache but that beeing vnpossible as the state is nowe you are content with Pastors or ministers that can doe nothing but reade You throughout your whole booke make this a maruellous good estate and alwayes turne the best side outwarde and when men goe about to vrge the deformities thereof to the ende they mighte be remedied then you lay open the shame and nakednesse of it and make it greater than it is in deede For as I haue shewed before the Church standeth not so muche in neede of your reading ministers as you would make the worlde beleeue And although it be a great deformitie and sore plague of the Churche whiche you here speake of and confesse at vnwares yet you will let no man come neare to heale it There be some make a gayne by sores and sore legges and therefore they haue a medicine to keepe their woundes alwayes greene that they should not heale I hope you do not of purpose keepe the Churche in this estate but this I dare say that the chiefe of your gayne and of your honour consisteth and is grounded in the ruines of the Churche and therefore I desire you to tooke vnto it Io. Whitgifte I omit whatsoeuer you héere speake agaynst my person for I am purposed to absteine The causes of the lacke of able ministers from requiting you in like sorte onely I will answere for my selfe where you labour to slaunder me The cause of lacke of a sufficient number of méete ministers in this Church is neyther the religion professed nor the gouernment that is vsed nor yet the gouernours But partly the crueltie of the times past wherein numbers of méete ministers haue bin consumed partly the vn willingnesse of mē in this present time which haue not that zeale to enter into this calling that is to be wished and partly nay chiefly principally you your schismes which haue caused some to cast off their ministerie wholly some to forsake their pastorall charges and yet to kéepe their Prebendes and other liuings some to depraue the ministerie condemne it and by all meanes possible alienate as many from it as they can And therefore nothing that I confesse of the scarsitie of méete able ministers derogateth any thing eyther from the doctrine professed in this Church or frō the kinde of gouernment or the Magistrates but rather cōmendeth the same bicause notwithstanding al the former impediments yet hath it a number of excellent ministers doth continually bréed mo If any confession tende to the condemnation of any it is of you your adherents who haue more hindred slaundered the Gospel in this realme of England than the Papists eyther haue done or could possibly do And I am fully persuaded that one of the greatest deformities suffered in this Church is lacke of discipline towardes you who be so farre from healing any sore in the Church that the more you be suffered the greater doe you wounde it And in very déede the reformation you pretende is nothing but a méere confusion or rather subuersion bothe of the Churche and common wealthe also My honour and gaine is but verie small yet it is more than I am worthie of but I trust the tyme will come when as such boyling affections vttered in so spitefull a maner will be made manyfest and I pray God it be not imputed vnto you in that day If my houour and gayne be other than may stande with the good and prosperous estate of the churche I am readie to yelde it vp whensoeuer I shall by due authoritie be required In the meane tyme God be iudge betwixt you and me Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 51. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. But what if the estate of the Church be suche as you speake of that it will scarce yeeld three preaching Pastors and Bishops in some Diocesse may you therfore make reading ministers In deed if the Apostle had made this a councell only and no commaundement that Pastors of churches should be able to teache then your saying might haue bene borne But seyng that S. Paule hath commaunded expressedly that he should be able to teache and Tim. 1. 3. to conuince the gaynsayers I would learne of you gladly what necessitie there is whiche can Tit. 1. cause a man to breake the morall law of God to bring in a tradition of man You may as wel break any other commaundement of God for necessities sake as breake this being comprehended in the fyrst table And tosay that these that can only reade must be tolerated in the Church as ministers is to say bycause you can haue no Pastors in the Churches you will haue idolls for so will I not doubt to call them although through ignorance of that whiche they do some may be good men But yet in respect of the place that they occupie they are idolls for they stand for that and make shew of that
Ministers and ecclesiasticall persons Againe in the same Apologie mention is made of an Archbyshop In the same Booke the Priestes and Deacons of the Churches of Mareota in an Epistle that they writte to the Synode besydes that they call Athanasius Episcopum nostrum oure Byshoppe they shewe that hée vsed to visite the Churche solemnlye accompanyed Theyr wordes are woorthe the notyng and bée these folowyng Vtpote qui non longis finibus ab Episcopo distemus comites in lustranda Marioteei cohasimus nunquam enim ille solus visitandi causa itinera obire solet sed comites secum trabere Presbyteros Diaconos non paucos ex plebe Bicause we dwell not farre from the Byshoppe and we accompanied him whilest he visited Mariotes for he is neuer wont alone to take iourneyes in visitations but to take companions with him Priestes and Deacons and many of the people And his own wordes a little before that Epistle speaking of these Priestes and Deacons be these Et mecum Prouincias lustrabant And they visited the Prouinces with me Whereby also it is euident that he had a large iurisdiction and that he did visite his Prouinces The same Athanasius in that Apologie declaring what this place called Mariotes is sayth Mariotes ager est in Alexandria quo in loco nunquam fuit Episcopus imo ne Chorepiscopus quidem sed vniuer sae eius loci Ecclesiae Episcopo Alexandrino subiacent tamen vt singuli pagi suos presbyteros habeant Mariotes is a territorie of Alexandria where there was neuer Byshop no not so muche as a Byshops deputie but all the Churches of that place are vnder the Byshop of Alexandria yet so that euery village haue their Priestes In his Epistle Ad solitariam vitam degentes he calleth Lucius Metropolitane of Sardinia and Dionysius Metropolitane of Mediolane Socrates Lib. 5. cap. 8. sayth that in the Councell of Constantinople They confirmed Socrates the faythe of the Nicene Councell and appointed Patriarkes assigning their Prouinces that the Byshoppes of one Dioces shoulde not intermedle in other Churches for this before was indifferently vsed by reason of persecution And to Nectarius was allotted Megalopolis and Thracia c. The same is to be séene in the Canons of that Councell of Constantinople Iustinian Illyricus Cent. 4. I omitte Iustinian the Emperoure who so often mentioneth these names and offices in his Constitutions I also omitte that Illyricus calleth Cyprian Metropolitane of Carthage and the fourthe Centurie where Ambrose is called Metropolitane hauyng gouernmente of many Churches Neyther shall I néede to repeate the places of Caluine M. Foxe M. Beza Lib. conf cap. 5. or other late wryters iudgementes who directely confesse that these names were vsuall in the Primitiue Churche and that the office was permanente for this that is spoken maye suafice I will come to those Authours and places where the office and iurisdiction is The office of Metropolitan Archbishop without the name Cyprian Greg. Nazi spoken of though the name be not expressed Cyprian Lib. 4. Epist. 8. sayeth that he hadde a large Prouince Habet enim Numidiam Mauritaniam sibi cobaerentes for it hathe Numidia and Mauritania annexed vnto it And Gregorie Nazianzene in the Oration that he made in the commendation of Cyprian sayeth that he didde rule and gouerne not onely the Churches of Carthage or Affrike sed Hesperiae vniuersae imò Orienti ferè ipsi ad finem vsque meridiei Septentrionis but of all Spayne and almoste of the whole Easte vnto the ende of the Southe and the Northe And what was this else but to bée an Archebyshop Eusebius Lib. 6. cap. 1. sayeth that Demetrius was Byshop of the Parishes of Alexandria Eusebius and of Egypt and this Demetrius liued Anno Domini 191. Eusebius testifyeth there likewise that one Iulianus was before him in the same roume Athanasius in an Epistle that he writte De sentētia Dionysij Episcopi Alexand. contra Arrianos Atbanasius affirmeth ad Dionysium Alexandria ▪ Episcopum curam etiam Ecclesiarum in Pentapoli superioris Libyae pertinuisse that vnto Dionysius Bishoppe of Alexandria the care of the Churches in Pentapolis of the higher Libya perteyned And it is manyfeste in the same Epistle that these Churches had their Byshoppe besydes For Eusebius Lib. 7. cap. 26. Euseb. writeth that Basilides was Byshoppe of the parishes of Pentapolis while Dionysius lyued so that it is euident that Dionyfius was an Archebyshoppe And this is that Dionysius that is called Alexandrinus whose workes be extante and is one of the most ancient writers The same Eusebius sayth that Gregorie did gouerne the Churches throughout Pontus Sozomen Lib. 7. cap. 19. sayth that though there be many cities in Sythia yet they Sozom. haue but one bishoppe Theodoret. lib. 4. cap. 11. testifyeth that Amphilochius to whome the Metropolitane citie of Licaonia was committed to be gouerned did also gouerne that whole countreye and did driue from thence the heresie of the Messalians And in the same Chapter we Theodoret. reade that Letoius gouernour of the Churches of Militia burned Monasteries infected with that heresie whiche declareth that Bishops had then greate authoritie in gouernment Aurelius Bishop of Carthage in the Councell of Affrike sayd that he had the ouersyght and care of many Churches But what néede I labour so muche in a matter that can not be vnknowne to Con. Afric can 55. in graeco any that is of any reading this therfore shall suffice bothe for the name and office of an Archebishop Metropolitane c. against the vnlearned distinction that you haue vsed in answering S. Ambrose Chap. 2. the. 26. Diuision Auswere to the Admonition Pag. 66. Sect. 5. Sozomenus lykewyse Lib. 2. of his Ecclesiasticall historie cap. 8. calleth Symeon Archbishop of Seleucia and Basile the greate Metropolitane of Cappadocia Lib. 3. cap. 16. T. C. Page 71. Sect. vlt. Basill you saye the great Metropolitane of Cappadocia I haue shewed what the woorde Metropolitane signifyeth and howe there was not then suche a Metropolitane as wee haue now and as the Admonition speaketh agaynst You playe as he whithe is noted as none of the wysest among the marchauntes whyche thought that euery shippe that approched the hauen was his ship For so you thinke that wheresoeuer you reade Metropolitane or Archebishoppe ▪ foorthwith you thinke there is your Metropolitane or your Archebishop where as it shall appeare that besydes the name they are no more lyke than a bishop with vs is lyke a minister Io. Whitgifte What this worde Metropolitane signifyeth what office and iurisdiction he had is before sufficiently declared and may more at large appeare in the constitutions of Iustinian Lykewyse whether our Metropolitans in office any thing at all differ from them Surely he that shall well consider your vnapte answeres and your vtopicall iestes may thinke that you weare the liuerie of those marchantes you talke of and
the whole scope of the Epistle and the playne and euidente wordes of the texte for what is this but to giue Timothie superioritie and gouernment ouer the other Ministers of Ephesus to saye vnto hym aduersus presbyterum Agaynst a Minister receyue no occusation c and as thys authoritie of Iudgement is not onely gyuen vnto Timothie but to all Byshops of like callyng so that also of teachyng that godlynesse is profitable to all thyngs c. perteyneth to all Ministers of the worde generally and not to Timothie alone This is onely the difference that the firste is common to Timothie wyth all other Byshops of like iurisdiction the other common to him with all other ministers of the worde You knowe that euery Pastor or other Minister of the worde hath not other Pastors and Ministers of the worde vnder hym that it maye be sayde vnto hym aduersus presbyteros c. as it is here sayde to Timothie for I haue proued before that presbyter dothe signifie the Ministers of the worde and Sacramentes and shall haue occasion to speake more of it hereafter You saye that there is an hundreth suche things in the Epistles of Timothie and Titus ▪ I thinke that there is not one hundreth seuerall preceptes in all the thrée Epistles These stoute and hyperbolicall bragges wyth so manyfest resisting of the playne sense and meanyng of the Scriptures argueth an euill conscience and a mynde so addicted to errour that it will not be reformed Manye things in these Epistles perteyne to all Christians many things be proper to Byshops suche as Timothie was and many common to all Ministers But this aduersus presbyteros ▪ c. muste néedes to proper be those that haue vnder them other Ministers committed to theyr gouernment which euery Pastor hath not Chap. 3. the. 58. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 3. And Epiphanius Lib. 3. Tom. 1. contra Haeresim Aerij proueth Timothie his superioritie Epiphanius ouer the rest by this selfe same place T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 3. As for Epiphanius * This is your practise to discredite the author that speaketh against you it is knowen of what authoritie he is in thys place when as by Aerius sides he goeth about to pricke at the Apostle ▪ whilest he goeth about to confute the Apostle which maketh a distinction and difference betwene those which the Apostle maketh one that is a Bishop and elder and to spare the credit of Epiphanius it were better lay that opinion vpon some Pseudepiphanius which we may doe not without great probabilitie seyng * Augustine sayth that the Ad quod vult deum true Epiphamus vttereth all after a storie fashion and doth not vse anye disputation or reasoning for the truth agaynst the falshood and this Epiphanius is very full of arguments and reasons the choise whereof M. Doctor hath taken Io. Whitgifte I haue not heard any probable reason alleaged of any why these bookes of Epiphanius The writings of Epiphanius contra 80. haereses not counterfeite should be suspected whether they be his or no seeyng they be both learned and very auncient mentioned also of sundry olde writers But to omitte all other proofes I wyll onely vse the iudgement at this tyme of the authors of the Centuries who are to be credited in suche matters bycause they haue diligently and carefully laboured in them their opinion of these bookes of Epiphanius Cent. 4 cap. 10. is thys Nunc de scriptis c. Nowe we wyll speake of hys bookes of the which that worke against Cent. 4. cap. 10. the foure score heresyes is most noble which booke he hymselfe in his Epistle to Acacius and Paulus Ministers And in his booke called Anacephaleosis calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Of the which writing Augustine in his booke ad quod-vult-deum maketh this mention Our Epiphanius Byshop of Cyrus sayth he which dyed not long since speaking of foure score heresies wrote also himselfe sixe Bookes making mention of all things after an Historicall maner disputing nothing either against the falsehood or with the truthe They be but short bookes and if they were all made in one yet were it not to be compared to ours or to diuerse other mens bookes in length Out of the which words it is euident that Augustine neither had nor at any time dyd see that worke which Epiphanius intituled Panarium for Epiphanius is very long in recountyng the historie as concerning the beginning the endeuour countrey of the heretikes the occasiō of the heresie the successe increase and suche lyke throughout euery heresie Then is he very long in confuting and condemning the heresies by true Scriptures and the interpretation of them wherfore it should seeme that Augustine had belyke onely the arguments prefixed before the Tomes of bookes of Epiphanius whiche he dothe therefore call shorte bookes or at the least had his booke called Anacephaleosis which is the summe of his worke called Panarium Cornarius that writeth Cornarius the Preface before this booke of Epiphanius is of the same iudgement and addeth these wordes VVherefore eyther Augustine dyd not see this worke of Epiphanius or the right worke of Augustine is not extant but loste or else Augustine dyd not in deede performe that whiche he promised I can reade of none that doubteth whether these bookes were Epiphanius his or no. And certaynely this kinde of answering is nexte the worst especially when it is vsed agaynst suche approued authors And bicause all men may vnderstande what Epiphanius wordes and reasons be Aerius here sie in denying the difference betwixt a Be shop priell ▪ Epi. li. 3. 〈◊〉 haeres 75 ▪ whiche in déede pinche you very néere for he calleth you heretikes I will declare them as I haue there founde them First he setteth downe the heresie of Aērius in these words His talke was more outrageous than becōmed a man and he sayd what is a Bishop to a Priest he nothing differeth from him for there is but one order and the same honor and dignitie The Bishop layeth on his handes and so dothe the Priest the Bishop ministreth baptisme and so dothe the priest the Bishop sayth diuine seruice and so doth the Priest the Bishop sitteth in his throne and so dothe the Priest In this he hathe deceyued many and they vse him for their captayne Then dothe he a little after confute this heresie with Aerius reasons on this sorte To saye that a Bishop and a Priest is equall howe can it be possible for the order of Bishops is the begetter of fathers for it ingendreth fathers to the Churche the order of Priests not beeing able to beget fathers dothe beget sonnes to the Churche by the sacrament of Baptisme but not fathers or teachers and howe is it possible for him to ordeyne a Priest not hauing imposition of hands to electe or to saye that he is equall with a Bishop but phantasticalnesse and emulation deceyued the
Timothie was an Euangelist Ergo he was not a Bishop This argumente is very féeble in euery The maior false parte For first the maior is vtterly false for those offices named by Paule were not so distinct but that diuers of them may concurre in one man as maye easily be proued Paule was an Apostle and also a Doctor 2. Timoth. 1. Matthew and Iohn béeing Apostles were also Euangelists as the consent of al writers doth testifie Timothie was according to M. Beza his iudgement both an Euangelist and also a prophet Looke his notes in the fourth chap. of the first to Timothie Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesiastes sayth that an Euangelist is nothing else but a Bishop or a pastor as it is manyfest sayth he by the wordes of Paule whiche he speaketh to Timothie saying opus fac Euangelistae and Timothie at that tyme when Paule writte this Epistle vnto him was a Bishop And therefore it is certayne that according to Faule his sentence the office of an Euangelist and of a Bishop is all one These be the very words of Zuinglius Bullinger expounding this place in the fourth to the Ephe. hath these words There is no man whiche seeth not these names to be confounded and one to be taken for an other for an Apostle is also a Prophete a Doctor an Euangelist a Minister and a Bishop and a Bishop is an Euangelist and a Prophet A Prophet is a Doctor a Minister and an Euangelist Therefore the Apostle Paule by these sundrie names dothe signifie these diuers giftes which God hath bestowed vpon his Churche to saluation And in that he so often vseth this disiunction alios atque alios he hath signified that all giftes are not giuen to one man but that diuers men haue diuers giftes of the spirite wherof he hath spoken more in the. 12. to the Rom. and the. 1. to the Cor. 12. chapter Hitherto Bullinger Pellicane in the same place is of the same iudgement These offices therefore or giftes maye well concurre in one man so that the maior is false and this conclusion followeth not Timothie was an Euangelist Ergo he was no Bishop The minor which is this Timothie was an Euangelist is very doubtfull For The minde doubtfull first it may be doubted what an Euangelist is The common opinion of old writers and also of diuers late writers is that those were properly called Euangelists which writte the Gospels Other say that he is an Euangelist whiche preacheth the Gospell Some say that he was an Euangelist that was occupied in teaching the people playnly and simply Caluine and some other thinke that they were next vnto the Apostles in degree and helpers of them and suche as supplied their office oftentimes Diuers other opinions there are of Euangelists and scarse two agree in one opinion touching the office of an Euangelist The moste saye whiche also the etymologie of the name dothe importe that those were Euangelistes whiche eyther preached or writte the Gospell Sainct Augustine in his seconde booke contra Faustum Manichae wryteth héereof on this sorte Narratores originis factorum dictorum passionum domini nostri Iesu Christi propriè dicti sunt Euangelistae They are properly called Euangelistes which are the declarers of the birthe deedes sayings and sufferings of our Lord and sauiour Iesus Christ Which may be done both by preaching and writing the Gospell as I sayde before Now if Timothie be an Euangelist bicause he preached the Gospell there is no cause why he may not be a Bishop also And it is certayn that when Paule sayd vnto him do the worke of an Euangelist he ment the preaching of the Gospell If an Euangelist be taken in any other significatiō how can it be proued that Timothie was an Euangelist For this proueth it not fac opus Euangelistae a man may do the worke of an Euangelist though he be not an Euangelist a man may doe the worke of a pastor though he be not a pastor To be short the conclusion is not necessarie howsoeuer the premisses be true for The conclu sion not necessary although it should be graūted that bothe the maior and minor were true yet the conclusion dothe not followe for Timothie might first be an Euangelist and after a Bishop as Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesiastes sayth That Philip the Euangelist beeing a Deacon was afterwarde Bishop and pastor of Cesarea Iames the yonger beeing an Apostle as Hierome and all the olde fathers doe testifie was after Bishop of Ierusalem and there remayned and dyuers of the Apostles when they lefte off going from place to place became in the ende Bishops and remayned in one place as it appeareth in olde hystories So that although one man could not be bothe an Euangelist and a Bishop at one time and if it be graunted that Timothie was an Euangelist yet doth it not proue but that he was a Bishop also But certayne it is that one man at one time might be both an Euangelist and a Bishop and most certayne it is that Timothie was a Bishop howe certayne soeuer it be whether he were an Euangelist or no. But héere it may be sayde that Timothie no more returned to Ephesus after he had bin the seconde time with Paule at Rome and therefore not to be like that he was B shop there This argumente is onely coniecturall and of no force to proue any suche matter Howbeit if we will credite stories wherby in such cases we must be directed it is certayne that Timothie returned to Ephesus there dyed Dorotheus sayth that he died at Ephesus and was there buried Polycrates testifieth that he was stoned to death at Ephesus Isidorus in his booke de Patribus noui Testamenti writeth that he was buried at Ephesus in the mount Pyon Symeon Metaphrastes testifieth the same Nicephorus li. 10. ca. 〈◊〉 testifieth that Iulian the Apostara did tormēt one Artemius for translating the bones of Andrewe Luke and Timothie from Patra Achaia and Ephesus to Constantinople But it is certayne that Andrew was crucified at Patra by Aegeas the Proconsull and auncient writers testifie that Luke was buried in Achaia therfore the bones that were brought from Ephesus must néedes be Timothies Héereby it may appeare that Timothie not onely returned from Rome to Ephesus but also continued there euen to his death And therefore certayne it is that he was Bishop at Ephesus But nowe to my purpose Chap. 3. the. 60. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. vlt. Ignatius who was S. Iohn his scholer and lyued in Chrystes Ignatius time in his Epistle ad Trallianos speaketh thus of the authoritie of a Bishop ouer the reste Quid aliud est Episcopus quà m quidam obtinens principatum The bishops uthoritie potestatem supra omnes VVhat is a Bishop but one hauing povver and rule ouer all And in his Epistle ad Smyrnenses he writeth on this sorte Honora quidem Deum vt
that a great parte of the people can not of knowledge tell whether he hath cursed them or blessed them whether he hath read in Latme or in Englishe all the whyche ryseth vpon the word s of ▪ the booke of seruice which are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place for therevpon the minister in saying Morning and Euening prayer sytteth in the Chauncel with hys backe to the people as thoughe he had some secret talke with God whych the people might not heare And herevpon it is likewise that after Morning prayer for saying another nūber of prayers he clymeth vp to the further end of the Chauncel runneth as farre from the people as the wall wyl let hym as though there were some variance betweene the people the minister or as though he were afrayde of some infection of plague in deede it renueth y e memorie of the Leuitical priesthoode which dyd withdrawe him selfe from the people into the place called the holyest place where he talked wyth God and offered for the sinns of the people Io. Whitgifte This nothing toucheth the order or substance of the booke and therefore no sufficient reason agaynst it if it were true But you héerein deale as you haue done in other matters that is corruptly and vntruely For you do not reporte the wordes of Corrupt dealing the booke concerning this matter as they be in déede and it is wonderfull and argueth great impadencie that you are not ashamed to reporte vntruely in so publike a cause The words of the booke be these The Morning and Euening prayer shall be vsed in the accustomed place of the Church Chappell or Chauncell excepte it shall be otherwise determined by the Ordinarie of the place And you leauing out all the rest say that the words of the booke of seruice are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place as though it bounde him of necessitie to the Chauncell which is nothing so But you Errours and isorder maynteyned by falsifying must be borne with your errours and disorders can not otherwise be maynteyned but by falsifying I thinke there are but fewe Churches in Englande where the Bi shops haue not taken a very good order for the place of prayer if any Bishop haue neglected it the fault is in the Bishop not in the booke But still I must desire the Reader to note the weightinesse of the reasons where by you goe about to deface the booke of common prayer Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 2. Likewyse or marriage he commeth backe agayne into the body of the Churche and for baptisme vnto the Churche doore what comelynesse what decencie what edifying is thys Decencie I saye in running and trudging from place to place edifying in standing in that place and a ter that sorte where he can worst be hearde and vnderstanded S. Luke sheweth that in the 〈◊〉 Churche bothe the prayers and preachings and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwyse For he sheweth howe S. Peter sytting amongest the rest to the ende he myghte be the better heard rose and not that onely but that he stoode in the middest of the people that hys voyce mighte as muche as mighte be come indifferently to all theyr ear s and so standing bothe 〈◊〉 and preached Nowe if it be sayde for the Chapters and Letanie there is commaundement giuen th t they should be read in the body of the Church in deede it is true and thereof is easily perceyued thys disorder which is in saying the rest of the prayers partly in the hither end partly in y e urther end of the Chauncel for eeing that those are read in the body of the Church that the people may both heare vnderst nd what is read what should be the cause why the rest should be read further of Unlesse it be that eyther those thyngs are not to be hearde of them or at the least not so necessarie for them to be heard as the other whych are recited in the body or middest of the Churche And if it be further sayde that the booke leaueth that to the discretion of the Ordinarie and that he may reforme it if there be any thyng amisse then it is easily answered agayne that besides that it is agaynst reason that the commoditie and edifying of the Churche should depende vpon the pleasure of one man so that vpon hys eyther good or euill aduyse discretion it should be well or euill with the Church Besydes thys I sa we s e by experience of the disorders which ar in many Churches and Dioceses in thys behalfe howe that if it were lawfull to commit such authoritie vnto one man yet that it is not safe so to doe considering that they haue so euill q tten them selues in their charges and that in a matter the inconuenience whereof is so easily seene and so easily reformed there is notwithstanding so great and so generall an abuse Io. Whitgifte These be passing weyghtie arguments to ouerthrowe the booke and come from a Weighty reasons agaynst the booke déepe and profounde iudgemente If I shoulde vse the lyke you woulde wype them away with scoffing The booke appoynteth that the persons to be married shall come into the body of the Churche with their f iendes and neighbours there to be married and what faulte can you finde in this Is not the middest of the Churche the moste méete place for suche a matter The booke speaketh neyther of the comming backe of the minister nor his going forwarde these be but your iestes and yet muste he goe both backwarde and forwarde if he wil eyther come into the Church or go out of it For baptisme y e booke appoynteth no place but bicause there is no iust cause knowne why the fon e should be remoued therefore the minister dothe stande where that is placed whiche is somewhere in one place somewhere in another for I know diuers plac s where it is in the middest of the Churche some place where it is in the nethermost parte I knowe no place where it standeth at the Churche doore And therfore in saying that for baptisme the minister goeth to the Churche doore you doe but counterfeyte No man denieth but that bothe praying and preaching c. ought to be in that place where it may be best heard of all and therefore the booke dothe prudently leaue it to the discretion of the Bishop But the middest is not the fittest place for that purpose He that standeth in the middest of the Churche hathe some behynde him some before him and some of eche syde of him those whiche be behinde or on the sides can not so well heare as those that be before as experience teacheth in Sermons at the Spittle at the Crosse in Paules and other places Wherefore in my opinion that place in the Churche is moste fittest bothe for praying and preaching where the minister may haue the people before him except the
prayers peraduenture you would haue alleaged the 1. to Timo. 2. I exhort therefore that first of all supplications c. which maketh directly agaynst you Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 78. Sect. 1. If you meane by prayers inuented by man such prayers as man inuenteth against the worde of God as prayer for the dead prayer vnto saincts such like then it is true that you say But if you mean such prayers as by godly men be framed according to the holy scriptures whether they be for matters perteyning to the life to come or to this life then you shew your ignorāce for it is manifest that there hath bene alwayes in the Church of Christ a prescript forme of publike prayer as it appeareth in Iustinus Martyr Apol. 2. Pro Christianis other Iustinus Martyr auncient fathers neyther did euer any learned or godly man or reformed Church finde faulte herewith or not greatly cōmende the same except onely the secte of Anabaptistes T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. vlt. Pag. 106. Sect. 1. It is not to any purpose that M. Doctor setteth himself to proue that there may be a prescript order of prayer by Iustine Martyres testimonie which notwithstanding hath not one worde of prescript forme of prayers only he sayth there were prayers he sayth in deede the auncient fathers say that there hath bene alwayes such kinde of prayers in the Churches and although they do say so yet all men may vnderstand easily that M. Doctor speaketh this rather by contecture or that he hath hearde other men say so for so much as that Doctor which he hath chosen out to speake for ll the rest hath no such thing as he fathereth on him He sayeth that after they haue baptized they pray for themselues and for him that is baptized and for all men that they may be meete to learne the truth and to expresse it in their honest conuersation and that they be founde to keepe th mmaundementes that they may atteyne to eternall life but is this to say that there was a prescript forme of prayer when he sheweth nothing els but the chiefe poynts vpon the which they conceyued their prayers If you had alleaged this to proue what were the matters or principall poynts that the Primitiue Churche vsed to pray for you had alleaged this to purpose but to alleage it for a proofe of a prescript forme of prayer when there is not there mentioned so much as the essentiall forme of prayer which is the asking of our petitions in the name and thorough the intercession of our Sauiour Christ without the which there is not nor cannot be any prayer argueth that eyther you little know what the forme of prayer is or that you thought as you charge the authors of the Admonition so often that this geare of yours should neuer haue come to the examination But for as much as we agree of a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed in the Church let that go this that I haue sayde is to shew that when M. Doctor happeneth of a good cause which is very seldome in this booke yet then he marreth it in the handling Io. Whitgifte I haue the lesse laboured in this point bicause it is a thing so generally allowed of in all Churches in all times and so vnlearnedly impugned by the authors of the Admonition Iustinus Martyr maketh much for my purpose for in that he doth rehearse those chiefe poyntes of theyr prayers then vsed it is manifest that they had a prescript order and forme of prayer the which no man can denie that readeth the place I graunt that these wordes prescript forme of prayer are not there to be founde Yet is there a prescript order and forme by him generally described whereby it is more than probable that at that tyme there was vsed a prescript forme of prayer In the 3. Councell Con Carth. 3 Can. 23. of Carthage we finde this Canon Let no man vse the formes of prayer which he hath framed to himselfe without conference with brethren that are better learned Whereby it may euidently be gathered that at that time there was a prescript forme of prayer vsed and that it was not lawfull to vse any new forme of priuate prayers except the same were allowed by the brethren But for as much as in this poynt you consent with me and graunt that there may be a prescript forme of prayer I will omitte whatsoeuer I had purposed to haue sayde more in that matter and so I will do also your taunts respecting the matter rather than Lucians Rhetoricke Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 78. Sect. 2. 3. Damasus was a good Bishop therfore no good thing by him appointed Damasus added Glori Patri c ▪ to be disallowed but he did not first ordeyne a prescript forme of publike prayers he onely added something therevnto As Gloria patri c. to the end of euery psalme And decreed that Psalmes should be song aswell in the night time as in the day time in euery Church but they were song in the Church before and as I haue sayde there was a prescript forme of prayer in Iustinus Martyrs time who was long before Damasus Gregorie added the Letanie onely I muse what you meane to Gregory made the Letanie write so manifest vntruthes Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 79. Sect. 1. You note not here neyther are you able any prayer in the whole Cōmunion booke wherein there is any thing not agreeable to Gods worde we may say as S. Augustine sayth in his 121. Epistle written Ad Probam viduam Etsi per omnia praecationum sanctarum verba discurras quantum existim Augustine nihil inuenies quod non ista Dominica contineat concludat orati Vnde liberum est alijs atque alijs verbis eadem tamen in orando dicere sed non debet esse liberum alia dicere And if thou runnest thorough all the vvordes of the holy prayers I suppose thou shalt finde nothing vvhich the Lordes prayer doth not conteyne and comprehende therefore vve may in other vvordes speake the same thinges in our prayers but vve may not speake contrarie things T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 1. 2. After he a irmeth that there can be nothing shéwed in the whole booke which is not agreeable to the worde of God I am very loth to enter into this fielde albeit M. Doctor doth thus prouoke me both bycause the Papistes will lightly take occasion of euill speaking when they vnderstande that we do not agree amongst our selues in euery poynt as for that some fewe professoures of the Gospelt being priuate men boldened vpon such treatises take such wayes sometimes and breake forth into such speaches as are not meete nor conuenient Io. Whitgifte In so saying I do fullie agrée with such as haue
our holydayes be some what short in number of theirs so far are we from hauing more than double as many as they had But your spirite is acquaynted with suche vntrue assertions But you saye we mighte haue all these commodities without all those daungers c. and why not as well this waye whiche the whole Churche hathe from tyme to tyme allowed as that way whiche certayne particular persons of their owne heades haue deuysed There is nothing that you haue to saye agaynst these dayes but onely their names and that those memories of Martyrs strayghten our consideration of them vnto those dayes c. and that men be inhibited from bodily labour to serue God al which I haue answered before and the latter in parte you confesse for you woulde haue certayne dayes appoynted for publike prayer the celebration of the sacraments hearing the worde and you seeme not to deny but that the remembrance of Saincts and Martyrs may be kepte onely you mislike that in the rest of the day men should be debarred from their bodily labours exercising their dayly vocations Wel I perceeue that something you woulde finde faulte with if you knewe what They are not so bounde from labour as it appeareth in the lawes of this Churche but that they may doe their necessarie businesse and in déede they are so farre from scrupulositie in thys poynte that all the punishmentes appoynted can not kéepe a number of them from their worldly affayres not in the very time of publike prayers and preaching of the worde and yet I sée no cause why they maye not iustly be wholly debarred excepte some vrgent occasion require sometime the contrarie from their bodily labours in suche dayes for are not the housholders bounde of duetie as well to instruct their families as the Pastor is bounde to instructe them and when is there a more conuenient tyme than in suche dayes If you haue suche a regarde to their worldly affayres is it not more commodious for them to abstayne wholly from worke vpon these Holydayes when they fall than twice or thrice euery wéeke halfe the daye Therefore this reason of yours as it is worldly so is it weake bothe in the respect of God and of the worlde also Your imagination that the kéeping of Easter dothe fetter the meditation of Easter to a A bayne reason fewe dayes c. and so likewyse the reste of the Holydayes I haue answered before it is a moste vayne reason and you mighte as well saye that there oughte to be no certayne tymes appoynted for the receyuing of the holy Communion bycause the meditation of the death and passion of Christe and the application of the same is fettered to these certayne dayes whiche shoulde continually be thoughte of and dayly as long as we lyue The same mighte you saye likewyse of the Sabboth daye But you oughte to knowe that the especiall celebrating of the memorie of Christes resurrection once in the yeare is no more a fettering of our meditation thereof to that daye onely than the receyuing of the Communion once in the moneth is a strayghting of our consideration of the deathe and passion of Christe to that time onely wherein we receyue the holy Sacrament By this reason of yours we muste eyther haue suche memories celebrated at all times or at no time But wyse men can consider howe farre you wander for want of reason Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 176. Sect. 3. 4. 5. Ierome writing vpon the. 4. chap. to the Galatians sayth on this Ierome sorte If it be not lavvfull to obserue dayes moneths times and yeres vve also fall into the like fault vvhich obserue the passion of Christ the Sabboth day and the time of Lent the feasts of Easter and of Pentecoste and other times appoynted to Martyrs according to the maner and custome of euery nation to the vvhich he that vvill ansvvere simply vvill say that our obseruing of dayes is not the same vvith the Ievvish obseruing for vve doe not celebrate the feast of vnleuened bread but of the resurrection death of Christe c. And least the confused gathering togither of the people should diminishe the fayth in Christ therfore certayne dayes are appoynted that vve might all meete togither in one place not bicause those dayes be more holy but to the intent that in vvhat day soeuer vve meete vve may reioyce to see one another c. Augustine in lyke manner Lib. 18. de ciuitate Dei cap. 27. sayth That vve honor Augustine the memories of Martyrs as of holy men and suche as haue striuen for the truthe euen to death c. The same Augustine in his boke Contra Adamantum Manachaei Discip. ca. 16. expounding the woordes of the Apostle Ye obserue dayes yeares and tymes wryteth thus But one may thinke that he speaketh of the Sabboth do not vvee say that those tymes ought not to be obserued but the thinges rather that are signified by them for they did obserue them seruilely not vnderstanding vvhat they did signifie and prefigurate this is that that the Apostle reproueth in thē in all those that serue the creature rather than the Creator for vve also solemnly celebrate the Sabboth day and Easter and all other festiuall dayes of Christians but bycause vve vnderstand vvhervnto they do appertayne we obserue not the times but those thinges vvhich are signified by the tymes c. T. C Pag. 122. Sect. 1. Nowe whereas M. Doctor citeth Augustine and Ierome to proue that in the Churches in theyr times there were holy dayes kepte besides the Lordes day he might haue also cyted Ignatius and Tertullian and Cyprian which are of greater aunctencie and would haue made more for the credite of his cause seing he measureth all his truthe almoste through the whole booke by the crooked measure and yarde of tyme. For it is not to be denied but this keeping of Holydayes especially of the Easter and Pentecoste are very auncient and that these holydayes for the remembraunce of Martyrs were vsed of long tyme but these abuses were no auncienter than other were grosser also than this was as I haue before declared and were easie further to be shewed if neede required and therefore (*) An vnlearned shifte I appeale from these examples to the Scriptures and to the examples of the perfectest Churche that euer was which was that in the Apostles tymes Io. Whitgifte I knowe that I might haue alleaged many other authorities for the proofe of The Repliee appealeth itō auncient authoritie this matter but I thought these two sufficient as they be in déede in such a matter as this is and your lightly reiecting of them will winne no credite to your cause among wise and learned menne You may easilie perceyue by the woordes of bothe these Authours that these dayes in their tyme were rightly and without all superstition vsed But you do well to appeale from these examples
Anabaptists Catabaptistes and Papistes Io. Whitgifte Yet you should here haue excused their ignorance in certaine poynts and theyr absurd reasoning but seeing you are content so lightly to passe all this ouer and leauing the defense of the Admonition séeke to confute my collections I am contente also that it stande vntouched and will answere that whyche you onely séeme to misselyke I doe not otherwyse suspect them of Arrianisme than they haue giuen iust occasion by dislyking the publike reading of that Creede whiche was purposely made to ouerthrow Arrianisme I trust there is a great number of suche as feare God in the Churche of Englande that knowe not them but yet for their rashnesse in this point haue them in some suspiition By these examples of negatiue argumentes from the Scriptures I ouerthrow all the Anabaptistes reasons that they do or can vse in the defense of their errours so do I lykewyse yours vsed against this Church of England neyther speake I any otherwyse of the baptisme of infantes or of womens receyuing the Communion than M Zuinglius doth in his Elench against the Anabaptistes and M. Caluine also in his booke written against them But this answere sore troubleth you and therefore you onely replie against it with slaunderous wordes but least you should by such meanes abuse the Reader I will set e downe bothe Zuinglius and Caluines wordes M. Zuinglius in his Elench contra Zuinglius Anabap. sayth thus You can fynde no hole to escape at For you foolyshly reason negatiuely from deedes and examples naye from no deedes and no examples For what doe you else when you saye wee reade not that the Apostles didde baptize infantes Ergo infantes oughte not to be baptized Dothe not all the force of youre reasons consyste herein And again VVherfore it is to be maruelled at with what face they dare measure the Baptisme of Infantes by the Scripture or rather by not scripture for they haue nothing in the Scripture whervnto they may truste but they make onely the negatiue their foundation when they saye we reade not that the Apostles baptized infantes therefore they ought not to bee baptized c. And in his booke de Baptismo of the baptisme of infantes and the first originall thereof neyther I nor any other man can otherwise affirme if we respect the expresse and euident worde of God than that it is that true and onely baptisme of Christe For we may fynde many things of this sorte whereof although there be no expresse and playne testimonie of God yet they are not repugnant to his will but rather agreeth with the same of this sort is that that we make women partakers of the Lords supper when as notwithstandyng wee reade of none that sat downe in that Supper which Christe dyd institute And M. Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabaptist sayeth in lyke Caluine maner They haue nothyng to saye agaynste the Baptisme of infantes but that there is no where any mention made that the Apostles did vse it to this I answere that no more doe wee reade in any place that they did at any tyme minister the Supper of our Lorde to any woman And yet these two be neyther Anabaptistes ▪ Catabaptistes nor Papists but valiant captaines against them all Chap. 1. the seconde Diuision Admonition The fourthe There was then accustomed to bee an examination of the communicantes whiche nowe is neglected Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 96. Sect. 2. 3. Howe proue you that there was then any examination of communicantes Examination of communicantes If there hadde bene eyther commaundemente or example for it in Scriptures I am sure you woulde not haue lefte it vnquoted in the margent Saincte Paule sayeth 1. Cor. 11. Probet 1. Cor. 11. bomo seipsum Lette a man examine hym selfe c. But he speaketh of no other examination wherefore this reason of youres is altogether friuolous and without reason And yet I doe not disallowe the examination of communicants so there be a discreete respecte had of the persons places and other circumstances neyther is it neglected in this Churche of Englande but by learned and discrete ministers wyth learnyng aud discretion vsed But note I praye you the force of this argumente some ministers neglecte to examine the communicantes Ergo the Communion is not rightly and syncerely ministred as thoughe the examination of the communicantes were of the substance of the sacrament If you woulde reason after your accustomed manner you should rather conclude thus the Apostles were not examined when they receyued the communion neyther is it expressed in Scriptures that they examined others therefore there ought to be no suche examination this is your vsual maner of reasonyng but it is chyldish vnlesse it were to conclude damnation or saluation T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. M. Doctor asketh howe it is proued that there was any examination of the communicantes After this sorte all things necessarie were vsee in the churches of God in the Apostles tymes but examination of those whose knowledge of the mysterie of the Gospel was not knowne or doubted of was a necessary thing therefore it was vsed in the churches of God whiche were in the Apostles time Io. Whitgifte I denie your minor fyrst bycause no suche at that tyme woulde offer themselues to receyue the communion Secondly bicause if any such did offer themselues not béeing knowne the fault is particular to themselues and toucheth them onely not the whole Churche Thirdly bycause if it had bene so necessarie a thing Saincte Paule woulde not haue omitted it especially when he hadde an especiall cause to speake of it as he had when he spake of priuate examination of a mannes selfe 1. Cor. 11. Probet autem seipsum home c. Of the whiche wordes M. Caluin speaking in Cor. 11. Caluin his booke agaynst the Anabaptists sayth thus But what neede we so to dispute seing the Apostle himselfe in an other place treating of the manner howe euery man shoulde be prepared to the receyning of the Supper of the Lorde as it behoueth him doth not bidde euery one too examine the faultes of hys neighboure but speaketh after thys manner Probet seipsum bomo c. Lette a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this breade and drynke of this cuppe for hee that cateth and drinketh vnworthily eateth and drinketh his owne damnation In whiche woordes there are two things to be obserued Firste that to communicat with those that are vnworthy is not to eate the bread of the Lorde vnworthyly Two things worthy the noting for those which shall communicate but not to prepare himselfe as he ought to do and not to expend and consider his owne faith and repentaunce The second that when the supper is to be receiued we begin not with other men to examine them but that we trie ourselues and surely if all things were exactly considered euen they which haue so much leysure to enquire
deede to be iudged not to iudge he came to worke the worke of our redemption not to decide controuersies touching landes and possessions But will you therfore take from Christian men authoritie to iudge for this exāple of Christ can no more be applied to Bishops than it may be to kings bicause the doings of Christ is a patterne for all Christians and yet Christians may iudge matters and decide controuersies amongst their brethren Looke 1. Cor. 6. The Anabaptists vse this text for one Argument of the Anabaptistes confuted of their reasons to condemne magistratie among Christians therfore a very learned and late writer in his exposition of this place writeth thus Hinc colligitur quantopere insaniant qui ex hoc loco magistratum inter Christianos damnant nam Christus non argumentatur à re ipsa tanquà m profana sit sed à vocatione sua quòd missus sit in alium finem tametsi res erat per se satis sancta pia Hereof may it be gathered hovv greatly they dote vvhich condemne magistrates amongst Christians by this place for Christe doth not reason of the thing it selfe as though it vvere profane but of his ovvne vocation bicause he vvas sent to an other ende although the thing of it selfe is holy and good T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 4. vlt. And as for the other place of Luke touching our sauiour Christes refusall to deuide the inheritaunce 12. Luke betwene the brethren it is moste aptly alleaged to this purpose For although our sauiour Christ doth not there take away from men authoritie to iudge yet he sheweth thereby sufficiently that it belongeth not vnto the ministers of the worde to entermeddle in y e iudgement of ciuil causes For our sauiour Christ framed that answere hauing respect to the boundes of his calling For as he beyng minister of the Gospell did all those things which were perteyning to his ministerie so by refusing this office of iudgement in ciuill causes he gaue to vnderstand that it did not appertayne vnto the compasse of that office which he exercised which was y e ministerie And therefore it is altogether out of season that M. Doctor here alleageth that y e Anabaptistes vse this reason to proue that Christians may not haue magistrates For howe doth this follow that bycause this place of S. Luke proueth not that we ought to haue no Christian magistrates that therfore it proueth not that the minister should be no magistrate as if there could be no ciuill magistrates onlesse ministers of the worde were And the place which he alleageth out of the learned man doth not only not make any thing for him but doth quite ouerthrow his cause For he sayth that our sauiour Christ did not refuse this as a thing in it selfe vnlawfull but bycause it did not agree with his vocation Now the vocation of our sauiour Christ was to be a minister of the Gospell therefore it doth not agree with the vocation of a minister of the gospell to iudge or to intermedle in ciuill gouernment And if M. Doctor had bene so studious of M. Caluins workes as by his often 4. Lib. Inscit 11. cap. allegation of him he would make the world beleue he might haue redde in him this sentence cited for this purpose to proue that the ministers haue not to do in ciuill thinges Io. Whitgifte Neyther do you héere replie to my Answere for I tolde you that Christ came to be iudged not to iudge in matters of lands and possessions I tolde you likewise that this example of Christ perteyneth no more to Bishops than it dothe to Kings and therefore can no fitlyer be by you applied agaynst Bishops than by the Anabaptistes agaynst Christian Magistrates To all this in effect you haue sayde nothing Your owne collection is soone answered Fyrst no man giueth to Bishops authoritie to iudge in matters of inheritance for suche controuersies are to be decided by lawe whiche hath other Iudges appoynted for it Secondly Christ spake this to declare that his kingdome was not of this worlde but of the worlde to come not earthly but heauenly not temporall but eternall and therefore he spake it touching his owne person onely and not as a rule perteyning to other Christians as the Anabaptists feyne Thirdly the authoritie in ciuill matters that is committed to ministers in Ciuill offices in our ministers tende to y e gouernment of the church this Churche is committed vnto them by the Prince for the better gouernment of the Churche and the fuller satisfying of their duetie consisting for the moste parte onely in punishing and correcting sinne And lastly it is not made a thing incident to the ministerie or as parte of that office but it is added as profitable conuenient and necessarie for the present state of the Churche and fuller accomplishing of the ministers duetie I haue tolde you in my Answere to the Admonition that this example of Christ dothe no more perteyne vnto Bishops than to other Christians whiche béeing true and vnconfuted by you then dothe it followe that the Anabaptistes maye aswell alleage it agaynst other Christians as you maye doe agaynst Bishops or Ministers The learned mans interpretation dothe well agrée with my cause for Christ refused it bicause he came to be iudged and to suffer death for the redemption of the world which is the vocation that this learned man speaketh of and is onely proper to Christ. I denie not but that M. Caluine may apply this texte to that purpose but M. Caluine dothe expounde him selfe writing vpon this same place when he saythe that euery man must respect his owne vocation quid illi sit aptum and what is meete for it Nowe the ciuill authoritie that Ecclesiasticall persons haue in this Churche is meete for theer vocation And therefore M. Caluine speaketh nothing agaynst it In the same booke chapter he alleageth these words of Bernarde ▪ whiche he writeth to Pope Eugenius of this matter Ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra c. VVherefore your power is in offences not in possessions And this conclusion he bringeth in vpon the wordes of S. Luke chapter 12. I would not as I sayde before haue Bishops Iudges in controuersies of enheritance Wherein the Bishops authoritie consisteth I doe not affirme that they may in the right of their ministerie chalenge any ciuill authoritie as the Bishop of Rome dothe But forasmuche as the authoritie is in Criminibus in offences as Bernarde sayth therfore if it please the Prince to giue it them they may lawfully execute so muche authoritie ciuill as shall further and helpe them in suppressing sinne And this is agaynst nothing that M. Caluine hathe sayde For M. Caluine and other learned wryters of this age doe vse this place of S. Luke and suche like agaynst the vsurpation of Romishe Bishops chalenging suche authoritie in ciuill matters as due vnto them Iure diuino and so
so notable a peece of vvork consisteth of tvvo false principles and rotten pillers vvhereof the one is that vvee must of necessitie haue the same kynde of gouernment that vvas in the Apostles tyme and is expressed in the scriptures and no other the other is that vve may not in any vvise or in any consideratiō reteyne in the Church any thing that hath bin abused vnder the Pope if these tvvo postes be vveake yea rotten as I haue proued them to be in this my Defense then must the building of necessitie fall Touching the first it is to be vnderstanded that there is a double gouernment of the Church the one spirituall the other externall Christ onlie and none other by the operation of his spirite and directiō of his vvord spiritually gouerneth his Church and reignyng in the conscienees of the faithfull guydeth their myndes in all matters of deuotion faith and holynesse and this is the spirituall kingdome of Christ so much spoken of in the scriptures and speciallie in the Prophets of this kynde of gouernment I meane not The externall gouernment hath both a substance and a matter about vvhich it is occupied and also a forme to atteyne the same consisting in certaine offices and functions and in the names and titles of them the substance and matter of gouernment must in deede be takē out of the vvord of God and cōsisteth in these pointes that the vvorde be trulie taught the sacramentes rightlie administred vertue furthered vice repressed and the Church kept in quietnes and order The offices in the Church vvhereby this gouernment is vvrought be not namely and particularelie expressed in the scriptures but in some pointes left to the discretion and libertie of the Church to be disposed according to the state of tymes places persons as I haue further declared in my Ansvvere and Defense follovving Of the secōd principle I haue also spoken at large there so that I shall not neede to trouble the Reader any further in these matters The proofes that T. C. vseth in this his Replie are grounded onlie vpō vntrue allegations and interpretations of the scriptures vaine and childishe reasons falsifying the authorities of Doctors other vvriters vntrulie ascribing that vnto them vvhich they vvrote not as shall be euidētlie declared in this Defense by the grace of God and surelie I haue not redde many bookes vvherein so many grosse vntruthes are to be found or vvherein there is so manye manifest argumentes vttered to proue the ignoraunce of the author and lacke of reading auncient and learned vvryters Touching his manner of vvriting I shal not neede to say much for any mā of iudgemēt that readeth his book may easilie perceiue vvith vvhat hautines of mynde vvhat contempt disdayne of others in vvhat sclaundrous and opprobrious manner it is vvritten hovve oft doth he repeate M. Doctor in contēpt either of the degree or of the person 370. times is the leaste vvhat other speaches of disdaine and reproche doth he vtter but I do nothing at all maruayle at it for I consider it hath bene the vsuall practise of sectaries and disquieters of Aug. lib. 1. contra Donatist the Church It is true that S. Augustine sayeth lib. 1. contra Donatist cap. 11. Nulli schismata facerent si fraterno odio non excaecarentur None would make schismes if they were not blinded with hatred of their brethren And againe An non est in schismate odium fraternum quis hoc dixerit cum origo pertinacia schismatis nulla sit alia nisi odium fraternum Is there not hatred of brethren in schismes who would saye so seeing that the beginning and continuaunce of schisme proceedeth from no other cause than from hatred of our brethren I must therefore saye vvith M. Zuinglius Scio quibus conuitijs quantis furoribus illorum Lib. de Baptis hic me exponam I knowe to what reproches and to howe greate rages of theirs I make my self subiect And I vvill conclude vvith him Quamuis miris conuitijs nos perstringere Eodem nouis quotidie clamoribus morderenō des a ̄t c. Although they maruelouselie slaūder vs and daylye with newe clamors reuile and backbite vs yet will I neuer leaue of the defense of the truth before their contumacie be made knowne to all men VVho so peruseth such learned authors as had greate experience of the lyke kynde of men he shall finde that their especiall grace both in speaking and vvriting hath bene in bitter inuectiues against other vvhom they haue enuyed and hated for some speciall causes M. Zuinglius in an Epistle that he vvriteth before his book de Baptismo speaking of the Anabaptistes sayeth thus Hyp critica illorum humilitas illis fatis nota perspecta est qui cum his aliquando sermones contulerunt quà m scilicet sit illorum oratio omni felle amarulentior Their hypocriticall humilitie is verie well knowne to those which haue had cōference with them how that their talk is more bitter than gaule And in his booke de Baptismo he earnestlie protesteth that he neuer found any thing in them quà m saturninam quandam melan holicam ingeniorum contumaciam c. and in his book against Baltasar he sayth that by dispraysing and reuyling others they seeke to wynne credite vnto them selues How this qualitie agreeth vvith some of our men and especiallie vvith the author of this Replie I am content that other men iudge If I my selfe haue in vvryting and in this Defense spoken something more sharpelie it must be imputed to myne infirmitie and yet am I therevnto greatelie prouoked but herein as in manye other matters I submit my selfe to the iudgement of those that haue authoritie to iudge and of those that be learned for I am content still to make this the foote of my song Errare possum haereticus esse nolo To those that be in authoritie I onlie speake as M. Zuinglius did to the magistrates in his time vpon the like occasion Quòd si hoc cuiuis hominū impunè facere licebit In Ecclesiast vt quae priuato suae rationis consilio adinuenit in vulgus spergat inconsulta imò resistente etiam vniuersa totius ecclesiae authoritate breui plus errorum quà m fidelium Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere If it be lawful for euery man to publish abroade among the people those thinges which he hath deuised of his owne heade before he hath consulted with the church nay against the authoritie of the whole church in short time we shall see moe errors in the church than there be faithfull men and Christians And againe Si enim boc permittamus vt capitosus quisque Lib. de Baptis malè feriatus bomo mox vt nouum aliquid insolens animo suo concepit c. If we suffer euery hedie and braynelesse fellowe so sone as he hath cōceyued any new thing in his mynd to publish
commaunde them Pag. 186. 10 He sayth that those which write the Centuries suspect the Cannon of the Councell of Laodicea which forbiddeth the electiō of ministers to be committed to the people and doubt whether it bea Bastarde or no whiche is vntrue for the Authours of the Centuryes make no such doubt Pag. 188. 11 He sayth that Hierome willeth that the people should haue power and authoritie to choose their clearks their ministers which is not so for Hierom willeth no such thing Pag. 203. 12 He alledgeth Musculus his wordes in stead of Ieromes and that which onely Muscu sayth in his cōmon places he ascribeth to Ierom in his epist. to Nepotian ead 13 He sayth that Nazian in an oration that he wryteth at the death of his father confuteth those reasons that seeme to hinder the election of Ministers by the Church and yet is there no such thing to be founde in that oration Pag. 205. 14 He referreth the Reader to the. 6. and. 7. booke of Eusebius for examples of elections of the people Clergie confirmed by the Christian magistrate namely in the Bishop of Constantinople and yet is there no such examples in those bookes neyther any mention of any Bishop of Constantinople Pag. 207. 15 He fathereth a manifest vntruth vpon Eusebius lib. 6. touching Origens admission into the ministerie Pag. 209. 16 He leaueth out the wordes of the Councell of Chalcedon that open the meaning of the Councell Pag. 222. 17 He againe ascribeth Musculus his wordes to Ierome Pag. ead 18 He denyeth that Chrysostome maketh a distinction betwixt Bishops and Elders when as his wordes be plaine Pag. 226. 19 He doth vntruely and corruptly alledge Theodorete Pag. 268. 20 He sayth Pag. 280. that the two treatises called the Admonition were written by diuerse persons the one not knowing the others doings the contrarie whereof is manifestly declared 21 He citeth Nicephorus corruptly Pag. 326. 22 He falsifyeth a place in the first of Iohn by a false interpretation to make it serue his turne Pag. 302. 23 He sayth that the Centuries alledge a place of Ambrose out of his booke de dignitate sacerdotali to proue that the office of an Archbishop was not then come into the Church Which is vntrue for the Centuries alledge no suche place out of Ambrose for any such purpose Pag. 337. 24 He sayth that Hierome and Augustine speake of Archdeacons in those places where they onely speake of Deacons Pag. 346. 25 The wordes of Socrates are falsified Pag. 350. 26 He vntruly reporteth the wordes of Cyprian Pag. 257. 27 He falsifieth the meaning of Tertullian alluding that to Ceremonies that Tertullian meaneth of matters of fayth and of saluation Pag. 370. 28 He kéepeth back the wordes of Theodoret that explane his meaning Pag. 412. 29 An vntruth concerning Iereneus auouched out of the fifth booke of Eusebius Cap. 3. 4. Pag. eadem 30 He peruerteth the wordes of the Gréeke scholiast Pag. 413. 31 He auoucheth an vntruth of Theodoret. Pag. 415. 32 He vttereth a verie vncharitable vntruth of the worthie man M. Iewel Bishop of Sarisburie Pag 422. 33 He sayth that in the Councell of Antioch it appeareth that the Bishop of the Metropolitane seate called Synodes and propounded the matters which were to be handled and that it was his office to see that the Bishops kept themselues within their owne Diocesse and he quoteth the. 9. Canon where no such thing is to be founde Pag. 435. 34 He both addeth and detracteth from the. 34. Canon attributed to the Apostles Page 439. 35 The. 17. Canon of the Councell of Antioche is vntruely alleadged Page 440. 36 He should saye an Epistle of Pope Zachary to Boniface and he sayth an Epistle of Zachary to Pope Boniface In the whiche Epistle he saythe that this cause scil Least they shoulde wax vile through the multitude is alleaged why there should not be a Bishop in euery village or little citie which is vntrue for there is no such cause alleaged there 443. 37 He alleadgeth the fift Canō Concilij Tyronnes for that that cannot be found in it Pag 446. 38 He saythe that another councell quoting the Councell of Afrike decreed that the Christians shoulde not celebrate feastes on the birth dayes of Martyrs because it was the manner of the heathen which is a manifest vntruth for there is no such decrée in that councell 479. 39 He sayth That Tertuliian would not haue the Christians to syt after they had prayed because the Idolaters did so and he quoteth his booke de anima where there is no such thing written Page ead 40 He fathereth an vntruth of Augustine touching Baptizing by women or in priuate houses Page 522. 41 He alleageth M. Beza in his annotations for that which cannot be founde in thē Pag. 584. 42 He saith that if we will take the nature of the sacrament so straightly as Augustine doth that there be no sacramentes but when as to the element there commeth the worde the circumcision can be no Sacramen which is a grosse vntruth for in circumcision there is both the word and the element Page 〈◊〉 43 He saith that the eldership was most flourishing in Constantines time but he noteth 〈◊〉 place where we may finde his saying to be true Page 651. 44 He is greatly deceiued about the excommunicating of Apollinaris and sheweth manifest tokens that either he hath not himselfe read the story or that he hath read it very negligently as it is plainely declared in the Defense Page 669. 45 He falsifieth Ambrose Page 670. 46 He alleageth a place of Tertullian very deceitfully Page 673. 47 He saith that Augustine in his bookes de Bap. contra Donatistas 〈◊〉 that if the most of the people be in ected with the fault which is to be punished that then no excommunication ought to be attempted for because 〈◊〉 sufficient number of voyces will not be obteined for the excōmunication whereas these wordes for because a sufficient number of voyces c. are not to be founde in these bookes of Augustine Page 675. 48 He maketh an vntrue report of the. 10. Canon of the Councell of Anti h. Page 682. 49 He alleageth that for making Ecclesiastical lawes and ceremonies which is ment of building and repayring of Churches out of Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Constant. Epist. ad Eusebium Page 698. 50 He affirmeth that this practise continued still in the Churches of God scil that nothing was broughte into the Church to be read besides the word of God whereas the contrarie is manifestly proued of the same time whereof he meaneth Page 718. 51 He saith that S. Iohn in the Apocalips reprehending the ministers of diuers Churches dyd not put to his name vnto his booke whiche is a manifest vntruth for he addeth his name both in the beginning and in the end thrise in the first chapter and once in the last I here omit his manifest wresting of the Scriptures his wrong collections bolde assertions contrarie
the state as they do then truly haue they to consider of such disturbers of the peace of the Church and according to their office and duty prouide a conueniente remedy for them knowing that it is the extreame refuge of Satan when by other meanes he cannot then to séeke the ouerthrow of the Gospell thorow contention about externall things The Epist. of T. C. Sect. II. An other exception against the fauorers of this cause is taken for that they propounde it out of time which is that the Jewes said that the time was not yet come to builde the Lords house but it is knowne what the Prophet answered And if no time wer vnseasonable in that kind of material building wherin there be some times as of sommer more opportune and fit than others how can there be any vntimely building in this spiritual house where as long as it is called to day men are commanded to further this worke And as for those which say we come to late that this shoulde haue bin done in the beginning and can not now be done without the ouerthrow of all for mending of a peece they do little consider that S. Paule compareth that which is good in the buylding vnto golde and siluer and precious stones and that whiche is euill layde vpon the foundation vnto stubble and hey and woode Likewise therfore as the stubble the hey the wood be easily by the fyre consumed without any losse vnto the gold or siluer or precious stones so the corrupt thynges in this buylding may be easily taken away without any hurt or hinderaunce vnto that whiche is pure and sounde And if they put such confidence in this similitude as that they will therby without any testimonie of the worde of God stay the further buylding or correcting the faultes of the house of the Lorde which by his manifest commaundement ought to be done with all spede then besides that they be verie vncunning buylders which can not mende the faults without ouerthrowe of al especially when as the fault is not in the foundation they must remember that as the mean which is vsed to gather the children of God is called a building so it is called a planting And therfore as dead twigs riotous or superfluous branches or what soeuer hindereth the growth of the vine tree may be cut of without rooting vp the vine so the vnprofitable things of the Church may be taken away without any ouerthrow of those things which are wel established And seeing that Christ and Beliall can not agree it is strange that the pure doctrine of the one and the corruptions of the other should cleaue so fast together that pure doctrine can not be with hir safetie seuered from the corruptions when as they are rather lyke vnto that parte of Daniels image which was compounded of claye and iron and therfore coulde not cleaue or sticke one with an other Io. Whitgifte They did not only propound it out of time after the Parliament was ended but out of order also that is in the maner of a libell with false allegations and applications of the Scriptures opprobrious speaches and slaunders not to reforme but to deforme the Church and to confound al. The rest in this part is Petitio principij the petition of the principle for you take that as confessed true which will not be graunted vnto you as shall more at large hereafter appeare The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 12. It is further sayd that the setters forward of this cause are contentious and in mouing questions giue occasion to the Papistes of staundering the religion and to the weake of offence But if it be founde to be both true which is propounded and a thing necessarie about whiche we contende then hath this accusation no ground to stand en For peace is commended to vs with these conditions if it be possible if it lye in vs. Now it is not possible it lyeth not in vs to conceale the Rom. 1 ▪ Cor. 10. truth we can doe nothing against it but for it It is a prophane saying of a prophane man that an vniust peace is better than a iust warre It is a diuine saying of an heathen man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is good to contend for good things The Papistes haue no matter of reioycing seyng they haue greater sharper controuersies at home and seing this tendeth both to the further opening of theyr shame and thrustyng out of their remnants whych yet remayne among vs. The weake may not be offended consyderyng that euen in the Church of God and among those of the Churche there hathe bene as greate varieties of iudgementes as these are For what weightier controuersies can there be than whether wee shall ryse agayne or no These were offences but woe to the authors whether circumcision were necessarye to be obserued of those whych beleeued And yet the fyrste was amongest the Churche of the Corinthes the other was fyrst in Hierusalem and Antioche and after in the Churches of Galatia and yet they the Churches and that the true religion whyche was there professed Io. Whitgifte It is very true and sufficiently proued in that Answere to the Admonition that the authours thereof bée contentidus and giue occasion to the Papistes of staundering the religion professed and to the weake of offence For whosoeuer troubleth the peace of the Churche or deuide themselues from the Churche for externall thinges they be contentious but these men doe so therefore they be contentious the maior proposition is grounded vppon the woordes of Saincte Paule 1. Corinth 8. 9. and. 10. but especiallye vppon these woordes of the. 11. Chapter If anye bee contentious we haue no suche custome neyther the Churches of God Whereas he purposely speaketh of such as be contentious for externall matters wherevpon that is grounded that Bullinger saith That those be contentious which trouble and deuide the Bulling church for externall things And that also whiche Zuinglius in his book de baptismo speaking of contentious Anabaptistes writeth They goe about innouations of their owne priuate authoritie in those Churches where the Gospell is truly taught and that in externall Zuinglius de baptis things And in his Ecclesiastes he calleth them authours of contentions and troublers of the church which striue about externall matters And surely this is an euident token that Zuingl in ecclesiast the accusation is true bicause they and their companions for the mosre parte make contention wheresoeuer they come and especially in those places where the Gospell hath with most diligence bin taught as experiēce sufficiently proueth Furthermore the time and maner of publishing their pamphlets argueth y e same most euidently The truth and necessitie of those things for the which they contend rest as yet in triall Surely if they be matters necessarie to saluation then is there some iust cause of breking the peace of the Church for them but if they be matters of
vp to the Councell in the time of king Edwarde the sixte the true Copie wherof I haue Surely he was no Adamite but a man of singular iudgement and learning Touching my reading in the Schooles whiche you héere opprobriously obiect vnto me thoughe I knowe that the Uniuersitie had a farre better opinion of me than I deserued and that there were a great many whiche were in all respectes better able to doe that office than my selfe yet I truste I did my duetie and satisfied them What logike I vttered in my Lectures and howe I read I referre to their iudgementes who surely if they suffred me so long to continue in that place augmented the stipende for my sake and were so desirous to haue me still to remayne in that function reading so vnlearnedly as you woulde make the worlde beléeue I dyd may be thoughte either to be without iudgement them selues or else to haue bin very carelesse for that exercise Well I will not speake that whiche I mighte iustly speake by this prouocation of yours For I counte this either an heathenishe or a chyldishe kinde of confuting to fall from the matter to the deprauing of the person God graunt that we bothe may so knowe our giftes and our selues that we may acknowledge them to be his and employ them to the edifying of the Churche not to the disgracing one of another Scientia inflat c. I did knowe that this my booke should come into the handes bothe of the learned and vnlearned and therfore as néere as I could I did frame my selfe to serue them bothe And bicause all or the moste parte of your proofes consiste of these or the lyke kinde of arguments I thought it conuenient to set downe a note of them before my booke and that for the learned sake wherof I do not repent me neither do I thinke that it commeth out of place But to obserue what arte heere is shewed you would gladly knowe you say what place of the fallacions either an argument ab authoritate negatiue is or of negatiues by comparison c. I maruell that you will so openly dally I intitle this treatise A briefe examination of the reasons vsed in the booke c. And afterwards I call them argumentes I doo not call them fallacions whiche notwithstanding I mighte haue done in some respecte but seeing you cauill about words tell me where I call either an argument ab authoritate negatiuè or of negatiues by comparison fallacions Doo you not blushe to trifle on this sorte and to séeke occasion of cauilling in so small matters I am sure that you are not so ignorante in Logike but that you knowe there be many false argumentes whiche be not amongest the fallacions What saye you to an argument à specie negatiuè and suche lyke What say you to an argument ex solis negatiuis or ex solis particularibus or to that that otherwise dothe offende in any moode or figure or to be shorte to suche as be in any place of Logike negatiue or affirmatiue when the nature of the place will not beare it For you knowe that in some places only negatiue reasons hold in some other places only affirmatiue Concerning an argument ab authoritate negatiuè that it is no good argumente Arg. ab autho ritate negatiuè all Logicians confesse neither is he to be thoughte to haue any skill in Logike at all that will denie it Onely the authoritie of the Scripture is to be excepted in matters pertayning to saluation or damnation bicause therein it is perfecte and absolute as I haue declared in my answere to the Admonition Touching the argument of négatiues by comparison which you thinke to Arg. of negatiues by comparison be so straunge it is moste vsuall in the Scriptures and moste consonant to reason when God sayde vnto Samuell 1. Reg. 8. They haue not refused thee but me He ment not absolutely that they had not reiected Samuell but by that one negatiue by comparison he vnderstandeth two affirmatiues that is that they had reiected Samuell and not him alone but chiefly they had reiected God But of this kinde of argument looke the. 2. booke and 12. chapter of worthy Cranmer Archbishop of Canterburie which he writeth of the Sacrament where he answering the obiections of the Papistes out of Chrysostome touching transubstantiation handleth this argument at large and setteth it out by many examples to the whiche place I referre the Reader and you too that you may sée your lacke of discretion in finding faulte where none is Those be but slender answeres to these arguments except you quit your selfe better in the rest of your Replie it had bin mnche safer for your cause to haue still kept silence Io. Whitgifte A briefe examination c. The thirde kynde of argument is called petitio principij whych is Arg. à petitione principij when a man frameth vnto him selfe principles of his owne deuise grounded neither vpon authoritie neither yet vpon substantial reason and then vpon the same will conclude his purpose whiche is vitiosissimum genus argumentandi a very erroneous kynde of reasoning as these men do in vsing these two false principles the one when they say that to be inuented by an Antichristian Pope which was not so inuented the other when they say that nothing may be vsed in the Church of Christ which was inuented by the Pope or vsed in the Popes Churche which can not be true as in sundrie places of the booke I haue declared The selfe same reasons moued the Aërians to forsake the order of the Church and to commaunde their disciples to do the contrarie of that that the Churche did We borrowe good lawes of the Gentiles and we vse the Churches Belles Pulpits and many other things vsed of Papistes c. The fourth kinde of reason is of negatiues by comparison as thys Arg. à negatiuis per come parationem Priestes and Ministers are to be knowne by their doctrine not by their apparell Ergo they ought not to haue distinct apparell from other men This argument followeth not for negatiues by comparison are not simply to be vnderstanded but by the way of comparison And therfore of the former sentence thus we may conclude that the apparell is not to be esteemed as a note of difference in comparison to learning and doctrine and yet a note As when Paule sayth that Christ sent him not to baptise but to preache the Gospel 1. Cor. 1. And God by his Prophet I will haue mercy and not sacrifice Ose. 6. and Mat. 9. The fifte is ab eo quod est non causam vt causam ponere vvhen that is taken for Arg. à non causa pre causa the cause of any thing vvhich is not the cause As when they condemne the booke of Common prayer a prescript forme of seruice bicause as they say it maynteineth an vnlearned or as they terme it a reading ministerie when as
the booke is not the cause of it neither yet a prescript forme of prayer but either the parties them selues that be vnlearned or they that do admitte them or else both This kinde of argument is vsuall in the Admonition There be other vnlearned and vnskilfull reasons vsed in thys booke which may easily be discerned euen of children And therfore I heere omit them Thus muche I thought good generally to write whiche beeing duly considered the booke it selfe needeth no other kind of coÌ„futation Io. Whitgifte To all this T. C. answereth nothing but onely to that of negatiues by comparison wherof I haue spoken before T. C. Fol. 1. Sect. 1. And to the ende the pithe and waight of M. Doctors arguments may be the better scene I will likewise giue the reader a say of them noting the places of the fallacions wherevnto they be referred Whiche I do agaynst my wil and compelled for that M. Doctor to discredite the truth would make his reader beleeue that those which thinke not as he dothe in these matters are not onely vnlearned but contemners of good learning In deede there is no great learning in these small things and they are of that sorte which although it be a great shame not to knowe yet it is no great commendation to haue knowledge of them Io. Whitgifte It had bin playne dealing to haue set downe M. Doctors argumentes in the same forme that he hath written them then might the reader better haue iudged of your collections but you were to wise for that for then should either your forgerie haue béene manyfest or else your booke should haue bin lesse by all this portion I séeke to discredite errors and contentious doctrine and not the truthe Suche learning there is euen in those small things that who so is ignorant of them may easily be deceyued bothe in speaking writing and reasoning T. C. Fol. 1. Sect. 2. In the. 40. page he reasoneth thus * An vntrue collection The ministers muste learne therefore they muste learne Cathechismes which is a fallacion of the consequent For although he that must learne a Cathechisme must learne yet it followeth not that whosoeuer must learne must byandby learne a Cathechisme Io. Whitgifte My words in that place be these If they that finde some want of learning in them selues or that be crepte into the ministerie vnlearned ither of their owne accorde or by commaundement of their ordinary reade and learne godly and learned Cathechismes they are to be commended and so is he that prouoketh them therevnto That Cathechisme which you in derision quote in the margent is a booke fit for you to learne also and I knowe no man so well learned but it may become him to read and learne that necessarie booke But some arrogant spirites there be that thinke them selues of all men b st learned and disdayne to learne of any That place of the fourth Chapter of the first to Timothie dothe not forbid a man to learne He that is a good and modest preacher will not disdayne as well to be taught as to teache Nowe howe any man can gather of these wordes any suche argument as T. C. frameth vnto him selfe let the Reader iudge He mighte well haue thus concluded Ministers that finde some want of learning in themselues c. ought to reade learne such bookes as may better instruct them Ergo they may reade and learne godly and learned Cathechismes And agayne M. Nowell his Cathechisme is godly and learned Ergo godly and learned men may reade and learne it Last of all a godly and modest Preacher will not disdayne aswell to be taught as to teache Ergo he will be aswell content to reade other mens bookes althoughe they be Cathechismes as he will be to haue other men to reade his Nowe I pray you iudge of the sequele of these reasons and compare them with T. C. his waywarde collection and tell me truely whether he dealeth simply or no. It is true that although a man must learne it followeth not that he must of necessitie learne a Cathechisme bicause there be other bookes besides Cathechismes to be learned wherby a man may be instructed but this is also true that if a man must learne he may learne Cathechismes Surely T. C. is driuen to a harde shifte when he is thus constrayned to feyne fallations where none are T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 3. In the. 55. page he reasoneth that for so muche as the ciuill Magistrate may appoynt some Another forged argument of T. C. his owne fram ng kynd of apparell therfore he may appoynt any and so the Popishe apparell which is ab eo quod est secundum quid ad id quod est simpliciter of whiche sorte he hath diuers others As women may baptize and preache bycause such a one and such a one dyd And the ministers execute ciuill gouernment bycause Elias and Samuell dyd Io. Whitgifte The words in that page be these May not therfore christian Magistrates in Christian common weales for order and decencie appoynt a seuerall kinde of apparell aswell to Ministers as to other states of men Iudges Sergeants Aldermen and Citizens are knowne by their apparell and why may not the Ministers be so likewise are they not vnder subiection be they not subiect to ciuill lawes and ordinances ought they not to obey their gouernours in al things not agaynst the worde of God If it had pleased T. C. to haue set aparte dallying he might haue séene that froÌ„ the last section of the. 54. page vnto the fourth section of the. 56. page my drift is to proue that Ministers may differ froÌ„ other by their apparel and that they may haue a distinct kinde of garments from lay men and that the ciuil Magistrate hath authoritie for order decencie to appoynt a seuerall kind of apparel to Ministers Now if he wold haue gathered truly he shuld haue framed his argumeÌ„t thus ChristiaÌ„ Magistrats haue authority in ChristiaÌ„ coÌ„moÌ„ weales for order deceÌ„cy to appoynt a sâ—ueral kind of apparell to Ministers Ergo â–ª Ministers may differ and be knowne froÌ„ other by their apparel Whether that the ciuil Magistrate may appoint them to weare suche apparell as was vsed in the Popes time or no that I handle at large euen from the. 4. section of the. 56. page to the portion of the Admonition in the 62. If T. C. had marked this myne order he woulde not so confounde him selfe and delude his Reader by suche vntrue collections of my arguments Touching the other examples of baptizing by women and ciuill offices in ecclesiasticall persons bicause he hathe not quoted the page whiche argueth he knoweth not where to finde them or that he is lothe the reader by searching the places should perceyue his corrupt dealing in the gathering I will deferre answering of them vntill I come where they or any similitude of them may be founde In the meane time with the first he chargeth me vntruly and
the beginning wearie of turning vp this (6) Note his mo est manerly speaches dung and refuting so baine and friuolous sclanders with out all shewe and face of truthe and therfore I will be briefe in the rest Io. Whitgifte I speake not here of the doctrine of the Anabaptists which is the certaine note wherby they may be knowne but of their other qualities and manner of talke and Preaching The wordes be M. Bullingers they be not mine The argumentes framed be yours and neither his nor mine Your disciples magnifie you bicause your vsuall talke both publike and priuate is They seke not the reformatiō but the diffamation of ministers against the Ministers of the Church against their calling against their preaching against their life c. which you doe not to reforme them for you doe it in their absence and to the people but to deface them and to discredite them not to promote the Gospell which they preache as diligently and syncerely as you doe but to bring them into hatred with the people whereby you might the rather preuaile in your enterprises not to reforme their manners for they maye compare wyth you in all kynde of honestie and dutie but to erpresse your malice and wrathe for that whiche Zuinglius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Anabap. in Elench contra Anabap. speaketh of them It is melancholie and wrathe not true zeale of whiche they glorie maye be truly verified of you and thereof let thys your booke be iudge Nowe if I say that in this poynte you agrée with the Anabaptistes I doe not therefore straighteway conclude that you are Anabaptistes but thys I conclude that you are not for suche inuemues to bée estéemed as more pure in deede than your brethren nor they thorough suche slaunde os speaches of yours to bée discredited bycause herein you speake or practise nothyng agaynste the true Ministers of the woorde of God but that whyche the Anabaptistes haue doone in the selfe same forme and manner before you And that these be qualities woorthie to bée obserued in the Anabaptistes and suche as procéede in lyke manner it may appeare not onely by this obseruation of M. Buliinger but of other learned and Godlie menne also that haue written agaynste them and giuen notes of their qualities Zuinglius in his Booke before named sayth That they speake euyll bothe Ibidem Why the 〈◊〉 speake euill of magistrate and 〈◊〉 Idem in les of the Ciuill Magistrate and of the ministers of the Churche that if at anye tyme eyther of them accordyng to theyr office reproue them then they streyghtwaye saye that therefore they bee enimyes vnto them bycause they tell them of theyr faultes And in his Ecclesiast he sayeth thus of them They so slaunder reuyle and backebyte the Ministers of the woorde and of the Churche that they oughte to be suspected and hated of all Godlye menne euen for theyr slaunderous and curssed speakyng But theyr ende and purpose is by thys meanes to wynne credite vnto them selues and to discredite suche as sette them selues agaynste them and detecte theyr erroures The lyke saying he hathe in hys booke De. Baptismo To the same effecte also speaketh Gastius of them in his Booke De exordio erroribus Catabap Gastiu where among other sentences he hath thys Theyr talke vttereth nothyng else but reprehension of the Ministers of the worde and libertie in externall things Now iudge I praye you whether this hath ben a qualitie woorthie to bée obserued in the Anabaptistes or no I doe not speake agaynste suche as modestly and accordyng to the rule of the Apostle 1. Tunoth 5. doo reproue any but agaynste those that haue nothing else in theyr mouthes but inuectiues agaynste the Ministers of the woorde obseruyng neyther place tyme nor anye other circumstances whome I still say in this poynt to be fitly compared to the Anabaptists Nowe whether it bée my Logike or yours that you gyue a taste of in thys placelette the learned Reader iudge to whome also I committe the tryall of thys spyrite of yours whyche bursteth out in suche vnséemely manner vpon the consyderation of your owne deuysed argumentes to féede your contempte and disdayne with In déede if you make argumentes where I make none and if you frame them as it pleaseth you no meruayle it is though you make a long booke and cause your Reader to beleeue that my Logicke is as simple as you woulde haue it But deale with mée vprightly and honestly and then set downe my vnskilfulnesse and spare not as I trust you woulde doo to the vttermost in euery poynt if you could séeing that you doe it where there is no occasion at all offered vnto you by mée but imagined of youre selfe Well let these quarelles goe more méete to be among boyes than among men Gratia Dei sum quod sum neyther haue I any thing but that whiche I haue receyued of him from whom commeth all good things Bothe of the election of ministers and of excommunication what I thynke I will declare God willing in their proper places The woordes here by me alledged as I haue saide are Master Bullingers and they be truly spoken and to good purpose as there it shall appeare In the meane while I referre you for that of the Magistrate in electing of ministers to the 87. and 88. leaues of that his Booke Aduersus Anabap. and for that of excommunication to the. 233. and. 234. leafe of the same Booke You denye that you saye there is no lawfull or no ordinarye callyng of Mynisters in Englande whych is a strange hearyng to mée for wherevnto then tendeth all that whych is wrytten in your Booke touching the electing and calling of Ministers or F st Admonition contrarie to T. C. that which is written in the fyrst Admonition Folio 9 ▪ where they say in playne termes that wee haue neyther a ryghte Ministerie of God nor a righte gouernement of hys Churche And Folio 34. 35. 36. c Folio 157. where they saye that thys prescripte forme of Seruice vsed in this Churche of Englande mayntayneth an vnlawfull ▪ Ministerie or that whyche is so bytterly spoken agaynst the Booke of orderyng ▪ Ministers and Deacons whyche they call the Pontificall But you saye that he may be lawfully called whyche is not ordinarilye I woulde haue you to speake playnely Is our calling to the Ministerie here in England lawful but not ordinarie If it be lawfull then is it not agaynste the woorde of God neyther is there any Lawe in the Scriptures to the contrarie as you woulde make vs to beléeue But truly I thynke that you were not here well aduysed or else haue you some suttle meaning for you adde immediately that there be places in Englande where the Ministers are called by theyr Parishes c. So that I suppose you meane that in some Parishes of Englande there is a lawfull callyng of Ministers if it bée so then is it not withstanding truly sayde that you
authoritie to take héede of them Let men apply them as they sée cause and haue experience there can be no hurte in that it shall make them the more circumspect and arme them agaynst the hypocriste of diuers Howe the authors of both the Admonitions do agree with the Anabaptistes in these forenamed practises I haue declared in my answere to your Reply You falsifie my wordes when you affyrme that I say they agree wyth the Anabaptists in all the forenamed practises and qualities for I haue not this vniuersall signe all if they agrée with them in many they are to be suspected I thinke the Anabaptistes themselues as they haue diuers and seuerall opinions in doctrine so had they also sundrie qualities concerning lyfe and conuersation and yet some there are which be common to them all I know that all the estates and orders of this Realitie hate Anabaptisme I require not your promyse for that matter which you offer vnto me Satis pro imperio I know their detestation of that heresie and therefore I am holde to open these practises qualities vnto them least they may by some mens hypocrisie and close dealing be deceiued My words and writings be publike my speaches plaine and therefore if I sting it is openly inoughe The priuie hissers and stingers he those that secretelye smyte theyr neighbour and hisse at them in their absence at tables and in corners and sting them behinde their backes whē they are not present to answere for themselues Such adders and Scorpions swarme among you Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 6. Moreouer it may please you to consider the conditions practises of the Donatists who deuided them selues frō the congregation Donatistes and had their peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Africa They taughte also that all other Churches were spotted and impure bycause of their Ministers Finally that there ought to be no compulsion vsed in matters of Religion and fayth and that none should be punished for their conscience T. C. Page 7. Sect. 4. Nowe you carie vs from the Anabaptistes in Europe to the Donatistes in Affricke and you will paynte vs wyth their colours but you want the oyle of truth or 〈◊〉 of truth to cause your colours to cleaue and to endure The Lorde be praysed that your breath although it be 〈◊〉 anke yet it is not so strong y t it is able eyther to turne vs or chaunge vs into what formes it pleaseth you I shall desire the reader to loke Theodoret lib. 4. de fabulis Haereticorum Augustin ad quod-uult-Deum and in his firste and second bookes agaynst 〈◊〉 Letters where he shall fynde of these heretikes that by comparing them wyth these to whome M. Doctor lyk eth them the smoke of this accusation mighte the better appeare For these sclaunders are not worthe th answering To this diuision from the Churches and to your supposed conuenticles I haue answered They taught that there were no true Churches but in Affrica we teache nothing lesse than that there is no true Churche but in Englande If the Churches be considered in the partes whether Minister or people there is none pure and vnspotted and this is the faythe of the true Churche and not of the Donatistes if it be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outwarde pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted for any thing I knowe if men would laboure to purge it The Donatists vaunted themselues to be exempted from sinn and what lykelyhoode is there betwene any assertion of the authors of the Admonition and this fansie of the Donatistes To the last poynt of no compulsion to be vsed in matters of Religion denying it to be true I referre the further answere to an other place Io. Whitgifte This that I haue set downe of the Donatistes is all true neyther can you disproue one word of it I write so much of their practises as he correspondent to the doings The admonitors compared with the Donatistes of the Authors of the Admonition The Donatistes deuided th mselues from the co gregation and had peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Affrica These also deuide themselues from the Churche And although they tye not the Churche of Christ to any one corner yet haue they their seuerall Churches and secrete meetings The 〈◊〉 made thys their excuse why they departed from other Churches bycause they were not pure and vnspotted and their ministers of euill life These men for the lyke causes separat themselues from the Churche also The Donatistes woulde haue no 〈◊〉 vsed in 〈◊〉 of Religion and fayth These men in effecte be lykewise mynded for they woulde haue no 〈◊〉 punishement vsed which may appeare y that which is written in the second 〈◊〉 fol. 57. where they saye that it 〈◊〉 not to make any lawes 〈◊〉 m ere 〈◊〉 bycause the gouernment of the Second Admoni fol. 57. Churche is 〈◊〉 per 〈◊〉 the worde and fol. 56. and in 〈◊〉 plates else they speake to the lyke purpose whereof occasion will be g uen hereafter better to consider Augustine in his 〈◊〉 de haeresibus ad quod-vult 〈◊〉 heweth that some of the Donatistes Aug. de baeresib ad quod-vult were also Arians but not all 〈◊〉 some of them were Circumcellions of which secte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the place by you cyted But what is all 〈◊〉 to ▪ Lib. 4 de fab Haeret. the 〈◊〉 speake ot of their opinions nor of all theyr conditions but of such onely wherein these that separate them selues in oure dayes séeme to agrée wyth them Similia as you knowe agrée not in all poyntes it is sufficient if they doe in those things in quibus 〈◊〉 Neyther doe I anye otherwyse reporte of them than M. Caluine him selfe doth in his booke against the Anabaptistes and Augustine with others that write of them Surely neyther in the whole nor in parte can the Churche be vnspotted in this world no not in the outwarde pollicie and gouernment of it neyther doe I thinke that you are able to shewe any examples of suche Puritie we haue to the contrarie euen in the Apostolicall Churches in the Apostles tyme as the Churche of Corinth and of the Galatians Maister Caluine in hys booke aduersus Anabaptistas is directly against you and in déede I thinke that you are not able to shewe one learned writer of your opinion in this poynt Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 7. To conclude these men flatly ioyne with the Papistes and by the selfe same assertions bende their force against this Churche of Englande T C. Pag. 7. Sect. vlt. Salomon sayth that the beginnyng of the ordes of an vnwise man is folyshnesse b t the Ecclef 10. ver 13. latter ende of them is mere madnesse euen so it 〈◊〉 oute by you for whilest you suffer your selfe to be caryed headlong of your affections you hurle you knowe not what nor at whome whatsoeuer commeth firste to
these opprobrious termes Proude generation tyrannous Lordships vngracious cruell Popelike wicked raygne proude enimies c. applied to brethren proceede not from the humble and mylde spirite of God but from the proude and arrogante spirite of Sathan Therefore by this vnseemely Preface it may appeare from what spirite the rest of this Admonition springeth Touching the crueltie and rigour Pretended persecution these men complayne of I shall neede to speake little beeing manyfest to all that be not with sinister affection blynded that lacke of seueritie is the principall cause of their licentious libertie But who seeth not their hypocrisie whiche woulde make the worlde beleeue that they are persecuted when they be wyth too muche lenitie punished for their vntollerable contempte of good lawes and other disordered dealings Nay suche is their peruersnesse or rather arrogancie that if they be debarred but from the least parte of their wyll and desire by and by they crie oute of crueltie and persecution it is to bee doubted what these men wyll doe when persecution commeth in deede whiche nowe make so muche of a little or rather of nothing As for this great bragge Stout brags For howe soeuer learned and many they seeme to be they shoulde and maye in this Realme finde owe to matche them and shame them too if they holde on as they haue begonne Satis arroganter dictum est and verifieth that to bee true that is commonly spoken of these kinde of men that is that they contemne all other in comparison of them selues that they thinke them selues onely zealous onely learned c. But it is possible that they maye be matched and I knowe no man of learning afrayde to encounter wyth them either by worde or wryting Touching the ministerie and gouernmente of the Churche what faultes there is to be therein founde we shall vnderstande when we come to their reasons God graunt vs humble and meeke spirites that godly vnitie may be maynteined in the Churche One thing I muste desire thee to note gentle Reader wherein the folly of these men maruellously appeareth howe they haue paynted the margent of their booke with quoting of Scriptures as though al were scripture they write when as in deed they abuse the scripture and thee For what one place of scripture is in all thys Preface alleaged to any purpose and yet how many is there quoted To proue that we must reade these two treatises without partialitie or blinde affection heere is noted in the margent 1. Thes. 5. Scriptures abused in the Admonition verse 21. Iam. 1. Iam. 2. The place to the Thessaloniās is this Trie all thinges and keepe that vvhiche is good The place of of the firste of Iames is this VVherfore my deare brethren let euery man be svvifte to heare slovve to speake and slovve to vvrathe And the seconde place of Iames is this My brethren haue not the faythe of our Lorde Iesus Christe in respecte of persons And to what purpose are these places alleaged what proue they or what neede is there to alleage them These Apostles in these places speake not of rayling Libels but of Scriptures wrested hearing the worde of God and iudging of matters of faythe according to the truthe and not to the persons To proue that tyrannous lordship can not stande with Christes kingdome they alleage the. 15 of Matth. and Luke 16. The place in the. 15. of Math. verse 23. is this But he ansvvered hir not a vvorde then came to him his Disciples and besought hym saying sende hir avvay for she cryeth after vs. In the sixeteenth of Luke it is thus Then he sayde vnto them ye are they vvhiche iustifie your selues before men but God knovveth your heartes for that vvhiche is highly esteemed among men is abhomination in the sighte of God I would gladly knowe howe their assertion and these two textes hang togither I allowe not tyrannous lordeship to stande with Chrystes kingdome But it may well inoughe for any thing in these two places to the contrarie Tyrannous lordship is not esteemed among men but hated ¶ The Replie vnto the answere of the Preface T. C. Pag. 9. Sect. 2. IT maye be sayde vnto you that whiche Aristotle sayde of a certayne Philosopher that he knew not his owne voyce For if that you had remēbred that which you do so often promise that you will not answere wordes but matter the Printer shoulde not haue gayned so muche men should not haue bestowed so muche money of a thing not of so greate value nor that whiche is more the worlde shoulde not bee burdened with vnprofitable writinges For howe often runninges out haue you to drawe the authors of the Admonition into hatred by inueyghing bitterly agaynst their vnlearnednesse maliciousnesse c. as it pleaseth you to terme it so that if there were any excesse of speeche in them you haue payde it agayne with measure pressed downe and running ouer Howe often charge you them with pride and arrogancie men that confesse once or twice of them selues their wante of skill and whiche professe nothing of them selues but onely a bare and naked knowledge of the truthe whiche maye be done with modestie euen of them which haue no learning And yet those that know them know that they are neither voyde of the knowledge of the tongues nor of the liberall Artes albeit they doe not make so many wordes of Pro. 11. v. 9 it as you Salomon saythe that he that is despised and hathe but one seruaunte is better than he whiche magnifieth and setteth out him selfe and yet wanteth bread whereby he meaneth that the man that hathe but a little and carieth his countenance accordingly is muche more to be esteeined than he whiche beareth a greate porte and hathe not to supporte it These brethren haue not vndertaken the knowledge of Logike Philosophie and other schoole learning whereof notwithstanding they are not destitute you in so often reproching them with the ignorance of them woulde make vs beleeue that you are so notable a Logician and Philosopher as if Logike and Philosophie had beene borne with you and shoulde dye with you when as it may appeare partely by that whiche hathe beene spoken and partely by those thinges that will fall out heereafter that you are better acquaynted with the names of Logike and Philosophie than with any sounde or substantiall knowledge of them But let that be the Uniuersities iudgement where you haue beene brought vp and are best knowne To returne to your vnprofitable excursions howe often times in your booke doe you pull at the Magistrates sworde and what sworde you woulde haue I leaue to the consideration of all men seeing you are not satisfied with their imprisonment wherevpon also dothe eusue the expense of that whiche they haue What matter is in all these that bringeth any helpe to the decision of these causes that are in question betweene vs howe many leaues haue you wasted in confuting of the quotations whiche
our saluation then must we be bounde vpon necessitie of saluation to obserue the whole Ceremoniall law which was the commaundement of God What was the commaundement vnto Abraham to offer his sonne Isahac Genes 22. vnto the Israelites to robbe the Egyptians vnto Moses to put off his shoes vnto Exod. 11. Saule to kill Amalech and infinite other needefull for our saluation is the commaundement Exod. 3. of the Apostles to abstayne from bloud and that whiche is strangled or of 1 Sam. 15. Paule vnto Timothie to drinke wine c. needefull for our saluation What a torment Act. 15. is this doctrine able to bring vnto a weake conscience whiche hathe not obserued 1. Tim. 5. any one of these You muste therefore vnderstande that there are diuers kindes of commaundementes of God and of the Apostles some generall and giuen to all other Diuerskinds of commaundements personall and pertayne onely to one singular person or to one nation and kinde of people c. Agayn there are some which are perpetual not to be omitted or altered other which are temporall and may be omitted or altered as the circūstance of time place persons doth require Wherby it may appeare howe grossely you haue erred in affirming that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for oure saluation I might in more ample maner prosecute this matter but this that hathe bin spoken may suffice What I haue sayde of chaunging the Lordes day and howe you haue satisfied my wordes is declared before and so is the answere made likewise vnto this your féeble conclusion grounded vpon a falie principle Which of vs two is caried furthest by his affections let the indifferēt reader iudge by these and suche other like dealings of yours I haue tolde you before howe muche this and the other places of S. Augustine maketh for my purpose whiche you can not but vnderstande if you soughte not corners to creepe into for the auoyding of suche reasons and authorities as be moste apte for my purpose Things whiche the Apostles haue done for vs to followe without any exception may not be violated but the question is whether these things whiche they haue done and written be sufficient for the ordering and gouernment of all Churches in all times and states or no. And whether in all things that they haue done we may or oughte to follow them both which you haue hitherto very slenderly touched Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 25. Sect. 1. And agayne Quod neque contra fidem neque contra bonos more 's iniungitur indifferenter est habendum pro eorum inter quos viuitur societate seruandum est That vvhich is enioyned being neither agaynst fayth nor good maners is to be counted indifferent and to be obserued as the societie of those vvith vvhome vve lyne requiteth In the same Epistle answering this question whether vpon the Thursday before Easter the Lordes supper shoulde be celebrated in the morning or at nighte because Christe dyd institute this Sacrament and deliuer the same to hys Disciples after supper he gyueth these three rules worthy to be noted the first is this If the holy Scripture prescribe any thing to be done there is no doubte but that muste be obserued as it is there prescribed The seconde is this That if any thing be vniuersally obserued of the vvhole Churche not repugnant to the Scriptures for so he meaneth not to keepe that or to reason of that is madnesse The thirde If it be not vniuersally obserued but diuersly in diuers Churches Faciat quisque quod in ea ecclesia in quā venit inuenerit Let euery man do as he findeth in that Churche into the vvhiche he commeth modònon sit contra fidem aut contra mores So that it be not agaynst faythe or good maners for so he addeth In the same Epistle agayne he sayth that the Lorde hath not in Scripture declared in what order and maner his Supper shoulde be celebrated but lefte that to his Disciples And in his hundreth and nintenth ad Ianuar. In those things sayth he that be diuersly obserued in diuers places this rule as moste profitable is to be kepte that those things vvhich be not agaynst faythe neither good maners and make something to exhorte vnto a better life vvheresoeuer they are instituted vve ought not onely not to disallovve them but to prayse them and to follovv them By all these places of this learned father it is euident that it hathe beene receyued from time to time as a certayne truthe that the Church of Christ hath authoritie to ordayne and constitute as shall be necessarie in those things before of me rehearsed For a further proofe heereof I coulde alleage that auncient and learned father Iustinus Martyr in his seconde Apologie pro Iustinus Martyr Christianis and in his booke of questions Tertullian in his booke Decorona militis Basill also in his 63. Epistle writtē to the ministers of Neocaesaria Tertul. Eusebius Lib. 5. Ecclesiasti histor Cap. 25. 26. and diuers other but I omit Basil. them for breuitie sake neither doe I alleage those learned fathers Euseb. because I thinke their authoritie any thing at all preuayleth with the authors of the Libell but for the wyse discrete humble and learned whose humilitie and wysdome wyll not suffer them to despise the iudgements of so learned and godly fathers T. C. Pag. 18. Sect. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. Pag. 19. Sect. 1. As for that rule that he giueth when he say the what so euer is not c. and for the last of the three rules I receyue them with his owne interpretation whiche he hathe afterwarde in 119. Epist. ad Ianuarium whiche is that it be also profitable And as for those three rules which you say are worthy to be noted I can see nothing that they helpe your cause one whitte for I knowe no man that euer denied but that the Church may in suche thinges as are not specified and precisely determined make orders so they be grounded of those generall rules which I haue before alleaged out of S. Paule And as for the seconde of the three rules I can not at any hande allowe it for when all Christianitie was ouerrunne with poperie thinges were vniuersally obserued whiche to keepe were meere wickednesse and this strengtheneth the Papistes vniuersalitie Concerning your Glose if it be not repugnant to the scripture besides that it is not inough because it muste be grounded by the Scripture and that it is wicked to giue suche authoritie to any decree of men that a man shoulde not enquire of it or reason of it I haue shewed that he mente nothing lesse For affirming that suche thinges are the Apostles commaundementes his meaning was that they shoulde be without all exception receyued and absolutely 〈◊〉 muche better is it that wee take heede to
his word commaundeth is noted the fourth and the twelfth of Deut. Ye shall put nothing to thevvord that I commaund you neither shall you take any thing therefrom c. And in the other place VVhatsoeuer I cōmaund you take heed you do it thou shalt put nothing thereto nor take ought therefrom God in the old law to his people prescribed perfect and absolute lawes not only morall and iudiciall but ceremoniall also neither was there the lest thing to be done in the Church omitted in the law And therefore for them at that time and during that state it was not lawfull to adde any thing nor to take any thing away no not in ceremonies and other ciuill lawes now in the time of the Gospell God hath left vnto his Church expressed in his word a perfect rule of faith and manners and sufficient to saluation and cursed is he that shal adde any thing to it or take any thing from it in that behalfe for therein it is perfec te and absolute But as he hath lefte the iudiciall lawe to the discretion of the magistrate to adde there vnto or take therefrom or al er and change the same so that no law be made against the rule of faith and good manners expressed in the word of God c. T. C. Page 21. Sect 2. Unto the places of Deuteronome which proue that nothing ought to be done in the Church but that which God commaundeth and that nothing should be added or diminished First you answere that that was a precepte giuen to the Iewes for that time whiche had all thinges euen the least prescribed vnto them I see it is true which is said that one absurditie graunted a hundred follow For to (a) A 〈◊〉 peruerting of ma ni ell and playn words make good that things ought to be done besides the scripture and word of God you are driuen to runne into part of the errour of the Manichees which say that the old testament perteyneth not vnto vs nor bindeth not vs. For what is it else than to say that these two places serued for the Iewes time and vnder the law for surely if these two places agree not vnto vs in tune of the Gospell I knowe none in all the old testament whiche do agree And I praye you what is here saide which S. Iohn in the Apocalipse saith not where he shutteth vp the new testament on this sort I protest vnto euery man which heareth the prophecie of this booke that whosoeuer Apoca. 22. addeth any thing to it the Lord shall adde vnto him the plagues whiche are written in it And whosoeuer taketh away any thing from it the Lorde shall take away his portion out of the booke of life and out of the things that are written in it whiche admonition if you say perteyneth to that booke of the Apocalipse only yet you must remember that the same may be as truly said of any other booke of the scripture Io. Whitgifte My first answer to that place of Deuteronomie is true neyther can you disproue The first answer iustifyed it by any sound reason or good authoritie for if you will haue this precept now to be vnderstanded of all the selfesame ordinances and lawes of the whiche and for the which it was at that time giuen then must we of necessitie kéepe the ceremoniall and iudiciall precepts of the Law being at that time in force The which thing as I suppose no learned man will once imagine but yet as this precepte was then gyuen to them that they should adde nothing to the lawes of God then in force or take any thing from them so is it perpetuall for vs also that we shoulde adde nothing to the law of faith and manners which is likewise perfectly prescribed vnto vs in the booke of God And thus you sée how farre I am from the erroure of the Manichees and from thinking that the old testament doth not apperteine vnto vs and yet I am not so Iewish to How farre that precept in Deut. is extended thinke that we are bound either to the ceremoniall or iudiciall law and therefore I say that that precepte applyed vnto vs dothe not extende any further than to suche thinges as God hathe commauuded or forbidden vs that be Christians to do in hys word How vniustly therefore you charge me to say that these two places agree not vnto vs vnder the Gospell when as I haue plainly declared how they agrée to them vnder the law and to vs vnder the Gospell let any man iudge The words in the last of the Apocal. although they be properly and namely spoken of that booke yet I am fully perswaded that they may also be affirmed of the whole testament And I am so farre from allowing either addition or detraction to or from the word of God that I vtterly cōdemne as false that which you haue setdown before in your booke Fol. 13. That many things are both commaunded and forbidden of which there is no expresse mention in the worde which are as necessarily to be followed or auoyded as Fol. 13. Sect. 2. those whereof expresse mention is made Chap. 6. the second Diuision T. C. Page 21. Sect. 3. Then you are driuen to say that the Iewes vnder the law had a more certaine direction and consequently a readier w y than we haue in the time of the Gospell of the whiche time the Prophet Iet 31. v. 34 saith that then a man should not teach his neighboure they shall be so taught of God as if he should say that they that liue vnder the Gospell should be all in comparison of that whiche were vnder the lawe doctours And Esay saith that in the days of the Gospell the people shall not stand Isay. 56. in the outward courts but he will bring them into the sanctuarie that is to say that they should be all for their knowledge as learned as the Leuites and priests which only had entrance into it Io. Whitgifte In matters of ceremonies and iudicials they had moe particular rules prescribed Wherein the Jewes had a more certaine direction than we vnto them and a more certaine direction For we haue very litle in these matters particularly written in the new testament but the morall lawe we haue as perfect as they had and in the law of faith which is the law of the Gospell and the rule of saluation we do farre exceede them Other meaning than this there cannot with all the violence that you haue be wrong out of my words Your places alleadged out of the Prophete Ieremy and Esay improue nothing that I haue spoken for the Prophet Ieremy speaketh of the elect of God whome he Ierem. 3. doth teach and illuminate not only with the outward preaching of his word but by the maruellous operation of his spirit also The words of the Prophet Esay if you Esay 56. meane the 7. ver of the. 56. Chap. for else ther is no
them not morall They called that first part properly by that name moral without the which the true holynesse of maners and the immutable rule of liuing could not well consist And agayne The law of God forbiddeth to steale what punishment was appoynted for thefte in the pollicie of the Iewes appeareth ▪ in Exod. The moste auncient lawes of other nations Exod. 22. punished theft with double they which followed afterwarde made a difference betwixte open theft and that which was secret others condemned the theeues with exile banishment others adiudged them to be whipped and last of all others to be put to death False witnesse amongst the Iewes was punished with equal payne in respect of the hurt in other places onely with infamie in other places with hanging c. All lawes ioyntly do reuenge murder with bloud but yet with diuers kindes of death In some places there are greeuouser paynes appoynted for adulterers in other places those which are more easie yet we see how they al by this diuersitie of punishment tende to one ende for they al with one consent do giue sentence of punishment agaynst those offences which are condemned by the eternall law of God to wit murder theft ad ltrie false witnesse but they agree not all in the maner of the punishment Neyther truly is it necessarie or expedient that they shoulde agree herein ☞ There is a countrey which should out of hande be destroyed with theeues and slaughter if it did not with horrible example deale very sharpely with murderers There is a so some time which requireth the augmentation of the sharpnesse of punishment and some people very prone vnto some certayne sinne except they be with great rigour kepte in awe He is then very euill affected and enuieth the publike commoditie that is offended with thys diuersitie which is most meete to reteyne the obseruatiō of the law of God For that which some men obiect that by this meanes iniurie is done to the lawe of God whiles it beeing abrogated other lawes are preferred before it is most vaine For other lawes are not preferred before it but allowed not by any simple comparison in respect of Gods law but according to the condition of time place and nation neither can that be sayde to be abrogated ☞ which was neuer prescribed vnto vs for God deliuered it by the handes of Moses not for all natiōs but particularly for the Iewes c. M. Beza likewise in his booke de haer Magist. puniend of this matter writeth thus VVe acknowledge those politike lawes to be prescribed Beza onely to the countrey of the Iewes neither are we so vnskilfull that we woulde haue Moses common wealth or gouernment called backe agayne as though it were not lawfull for euery Magistrate within his owne dominion to make lawes in ciuill matters And a little after The Iudiciall lawes were framed only for one nation Therefore seeing they were neuer written for vs they can not be sayd to be abrogated And agayne Onely the Israelites were bound to the Iudiciall lawes that is those that dwell in Iurie bicause they were made fit for that common wealth onely And after that he hath shewed by an example of the lawe for theft that that maner kinde of punishment did onely binde the Israelites that other Magistrates in their countreys for good causes maye appoynt a sharper kinde of punishment for the same he cōcludeth thus Lex enim illa Mosis Idem quatenùs poenae modū praescribit alijs gentibus neque vnquā fuit posita neque nūc est propriè abrogata That lawe of Moses in so muche as it prescribeth the maner of punishment was neyther ☜ at any time giuen to other nations neither is it now properly abrogated So that now they that be disposed may perceyue howe this doctrine of yours not onely tendeth to the ouerthrowing of states of cōmon wealthes but is contrarie also to the truth and opinion of learned men and those especially of whome you your selfe make greatest accompt Therefore it is true that I haue sayde in my answere to the Admonition that is The Iudicial law to be left to the discretion of the Magistrate to adde to it or to take from it or to alter and chaunge it as shall be thought most fit for the time manner of the countrey and condition of the people as M. Caluin also very aptly noteth in the very ende of that 15. section before rehearsed Chap. 6. the 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 31. Lin. 21 ▪ So hath he lefte authoritie vnto his Churche to make lawes and appoynt orders ceremonies as shall from time to time be thought most expedient and profitable for the same so that nothing be done contrarie to his worde or repugnant to the same And this authoritie hath the Churche vsed euen from the Apostles time as it is manifest both by the scriptures Act. 6. Act. 15. 1. Cor. 11. other ecclesiasticall stories and auncient fathers as is before by me proued Iohn Whitgifte To this nothing is answered Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 31. Sect. 1. But to come to the wordes of Deuteronomie them selues what is it to adde to the worde of God or to take from it Truely to thinke otherwise or teache otherwise of God than he hathe in his worde reuealed Those take from the worde that beleeue lesse than in the worde is expressed those adde to the worde fyrste whiche teache or decree any thing eyther in matters of faythe or ceremonies contrarie to the worde Secondly those that make any thing necessarie vnto saluation not conteyned in the worde Thirdly such as make any religion or opiniō of merite in any thing that they themselues haue inuented besides the worde of God Last of all they adde to the word which forbid that for a thing of it selfe vnlawfull which Gods worde doth not forbid and make that sinne which Gods word doth not make sinne But such as truly sincerely imbrace the worde of God and admit nothing contrarie vnto it if in gouernment ceremonies without any wicked superstitious opinion they appoynt or retayne such as they know not to be agaynst the worde of God and profitable for the present state of the Church can not truly be sayd to adde any thing to the worde of God or take any thing from it though the same be not expressed in the worde T. C. Pag. 22. Sect. 3. After you define what it is to take from and put to the word of God wherin not to speake of your wonderfull * There is no great dexteritie required to performe this dexteritie in defining which can define two thinges and those contrarie putting to and taking fro with one difference which Zeno him self could neuer do you leaue out that which Moses especially ment to comprehende which is not to do more nor to do lesse than he hathe commanded And as for your diuision
of men But why doe they condemne whole Churches for indifferent things whiche if they woulde obey S. Paule ought to apply them selues to the weakenesse of euery one Beza in an Epistle of his prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Heluetia Beza sayth That all rytes and ceremonyes are not to be receiued without exception which the Apostolike Church it selfe hath vsed eyther as profitable or necessarie for their tymes and in his booke called confessio Christ. fidei cap. 5. he writeth That one cause of Councels and Idem Synodes was to make rules of ecclesiasticall discipline and to appoint the gouernment of the Church according to the diuersitie of time place and persons For it is necessarie that in the house of the Lorde all things shoulde be done in order of the vvhich order there is one generall reason in the vvorde of God 1. Cor. 14. But not one and the same forme agreeing to all circumstances And againe in the same Chapter he sayth The rules or canons of rytes and Idem orders in the Church haue respect to comelynesse in externall things and therefore they be neither generall for the most parte nor perpetuall for that which is profitable in some place in other some places would rather hurt and moreouer the diuerse respectes of the time are such that the same thing which for good considerations was ordained must of necessitie sometime be abrogated whereof it comes to passe that there is not onely so great varietie in the olde canons but contrarietie also Againe in the same Chapter VVe must Idem not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in politia ecclesiastica in the gouernmente of the Church seyng there be most diuerse circumstances and therfore absque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without ☜ preposterous zeale all things can not in all places and times be reduced to one and the same forme c. In the confessiō of the Churches in Heluetia c. it is thus written Men shall easily Confess ecclesiarum Heluet. gather this also that we doe not by any wicked schisme seuer or cut off oure selues from Christes holy Churches of Germanie Fraunce England and other Christian nations but that we well agree with all and euery one of them in the truth of Christe which here we haue acknowledged For albeit there is some varietie in diuerse Churches aboute the vttering and setting forth of their doctrine and aboute rytes and ceremonyes which they receiue as a meane to edifie their Churches yet that varietie neuer semed to minister cause of dissention and schisme in the Church for in such matters the Churches of Christ haue alvvayes vsed their libertie as we may reade in the Ecclesiasticall history I omit here the confession of the Church of VVirtenberge and the testimonyes of sundry other notable learned men I knowe no learned writer that doth denye the Church to haue authoritie in appoynting rytes ceremonyes discipline and kinde of gouernment according to the place time persons and other circumstances thoughe the same be not expressed in the word of God so that it doe nothing repugnante to the same But what néede I labour so much in a matter confessed by him that would séeme to ouerthrowe it for if the Iewes had twentie things left to their order in the Churche for our Pag. 21. Sect. one as T. C. hath affirmed and yet this commaundement not broken Deu. 4. 12. Nihil addes verbo c then may the Church of Christ vse hir libertie in like maner wythout any breache of the same Wherefore to conclude I nowe referre it to the iudgement of the Reader whether if be true or not that I haue affyrmed against the Authors of the Admonition to wit that those things onely are not to be brought in or vsed in the Church which the Lord himselfe in his word hath commaunded but that of necessitie in externall things and outward gouernment the Churche hath authoritie to determine according to time place person c. though the same be not commaunded or expressed in Scripture so that it be not repugnant to the word Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 32. Sect. 1. 2. Pag. 33. Sect. 1. The other places noted in this margent as Psal. 37. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. Scriptures vnchristianly abused by the Admonition 2. and the rest are not alleaged to proue any thing in cōtrouersie but onely withoute iudgement placed in the margent to make a shewe how aptly they be applyed I leaue to the consideration of the diligent Reader This one thing I can not but maruell at that these fellowes so please themselues in the platforme of their Church and attribute so much thervnto that they exhorte nay rather charge the courte of Parliament with perfecte hatred to detest the present state of the Churche with singular loue to embrace that which they prescribe in this Booke and to moue them rather to this perfect hatred of vs and singular loue of themselues they vse the authoritie of the. 31. and 139. Psalme In the one Dauid sayth that he hath hated them that gyue themselues to deceitfull vanities bicause he trusteth in the Lorde In the other speaking of the contemners of God of wicked and bloudie men Marke this spirite and of such as blaspheme God and be his enemyes he sayth I hate them vvith an vnfained hatred c. As thoughe all suche as like or alowe of the presente state of the Churche of this Realme of England gaue them selues to deceitfull vanities were contemners of God wicked and bloudy men blasphemers of God and his enimyes I will not aggrauate this blasphemie of theirs let Prince Nobles and all other louers of God his worde consider diligently this spirite and in time preuent the burning malice of the same no Turke no Iewe no Papist coulde possibly haue spoken more spitefully of this Church and state but such is the spirite of arrogancie To the lyke effecte they alleage the. 15. of Iohn 1. Timo. 3. Math. 7. 11. as thoughe they onely had the word of God and were of the Churche and we contemners and reiecters of the same O where is humilitie Truely if these men be not by discipline brideled they wil worke more harme to this Church than euer the Papist dyd Io. Whitgifte To this there is not one word spoken Admonition May it therefore please your wisedomes to vnderstande we in Englande are so farre off from hauing a Church rightly reformed according to the prescript of Gods word that as yet we are not come to the outwarde face of the same For to speake of that wherein all consent and wherevpon all writers accorde The outwarde markes wherby a true Christian Church is knowne are preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline which consisteth in admonition and correcting of faultes seuerely Touching the first namely the ministerie of the worde althougher must be confessed that the substance
of the bishop But why doth not he himselfe take heed vnto it with what conscience can he admit a minister of whose fitnesse he knoweth not but vpon the credite of an other although he were otherwise very fitte where can he haue that ful persuasion that he doth well vpon the report of others when the reporte of his lyfe and learnyng ▪ is made but of one And therefore * 1. Timo. 3. Sainct Paule ordeyned that the same shoulde be the ordeyners and the examiners and not to hang vpon the fayth or report of an other man in thyngs that are so weyghtie and wherof he may himselfe take notice Io. Whitgifte This reason thoughe it differ in some circumstances yet in effecte it is all one wyth the seconde for it is agaynste the examination of the Archedacon and so was that But youre argumente is not sounde for dothe the Bishoppe therefore admitte Ministers onely vppon the credite and at the reporte of the Archedeacon bycause the Archedeacon presenteth them vnto hym you knowe that none is admitted to anye degrée here in Cambridge but the same is first presented to the Uicechancelor to the Uniuersitie by some one of that facultie who giueth his fidelitie for them doth the Uniuersitie therfore admitte them onely vppon the credite and reporte of that one man You knowe the contrarie euen so it is here The Archdeacon presenteth to the Bishoppe the Bishoppe dothe inquyre if hée hath diligently examyned them c. dothe he therfore thinke you not examine them him selfe I haue knowne Bishops reiecte those whome their Archdeacons haue allowed If any Bishop doe giue that credite to his Archdeacon he dothe more than I woulde wishe he shoulde doe and otherwyse than the booke requireth of him neyther muste his example doone without the booke preiudice that whiche is well appoynted in the booke Paule 1. Ti. 3. declareth what qualities and conditions a ishop ought to haue but can you gather of any thing there written that the same should be the ordeyners and examiners it is moste meete it should so be I graunte but yet woulde I not haue the Scriptures made ship menn s hose to serue our tournes as it pleaseth vs to tourne them least wée fall into that faulte oure selues whiche wée iustly reproue in the Papistes But stil you are contrarie to your self for if the same must be the ordeyners the examiners T. C. contrary to himselfe then muste the Bishops of necessitie be the examiners for you can not denie but that the Bishoppes muste be the ordeyners And if you will haue 1. Ti. 3. to serue your purpose then must you of force confesse it for there Saincte Paule writeth to Timothie béeing a Bishop and but one man so that this reason is directely agay st the firste Chap. 1. the seuenth Diuision T. C. Page 25. Sect. 2. Fourthly for that albei the Churche is demaunded whether they haue any thing to obiecte yet that Churche whereof he is to be Pastor and whiche it skilleth especially that he bee fitte is not demaunded and whiche woulde bycause it standeth them vpon inquire diligently of him Io. Whitgifte And howe would you haue that Churche wherof he is to be Pastor demaunded whether The absurditi s that of necessitie follow the assertion of T. C. they haue any thing to obiect against him would you haue euery one that is to be minister first goe and dwell among them that they might haue triall of him In déed so did Mathias and Barsabas among the Apostles and the seuen among them by whome they were chosen Deacons But howe long shall he then remayne among them for it had néede be a good tyme else shall they not throughly knowe him nor then neyther for he maye playe the hypocrite But who shall in the meane tyme beare his charges there and fynde him for a number of parishes in Englande be not able sufficiently to fynd one muche lesse moe Or howe shall they haue any tryall of his doctrine learning and habilitie to preache séeing that he maye not publikely eyther teach or exhorte bicause he is not yet called to the ministerie Surely I vnderstand not how your deuise coulde be well brought to passe except you will make in euery parishe an vniuersitie or some schoole of Diuinitie or Colledge of learning as in déede they had in moste great Cities of the old Church where the election of ministers was committed to manye or excepte you imagine that some suche maye be dwelling and continuing in euery Parishe as by inspiration or some other extraordinarie meanes may be made able to be their Pastor when the place shall be voyde But tell me this one thing woulde you haue him that is to bée chos n their Pastor remayne among them they hauing yet a Pastor or come vnto them after the death or departure of their Pastor as the seconde Admonition woulde haue it Folio 14 if the fyrste then muste the Parishe bée double burdened that is they muste finde bothe him that is and him also that shall be their pastor moreouer it is vncertaine how long he must remaine with them expecting the death or departure of the other Likewise how he shall in the meane time occupy himselfe c. If the second then must they of long time be destitute of a Pastor for they cannot haue sufficient triall of him excepte also sufficient time be graunted vnto them to trie him in which cannot be lesse than one whole yeare at the least But admitte all these impossibilities and great absurdities to be possible and conuenient yet are there further doubtes what if the parish be wholly or the most parte simple ignorant and vnlearned men not able to iudge what if they be all or the most part corrupt in religion what if they be such as can be better content with one that will winke at their faultes than with him that will reproue them what if they be such as wil be ouerruled with some one whome they dare not displease To be short what if they cannot agrée among themselues vpon some one but be diuided i to factions c All these things being considered you shall find it the fittest and best way that the Byshop euen according to the forme prescribed in the booke haue authoritie to admitte and allow of suche as are to be ministers Would you haue him that is brought vp in the vniuersitie and well knowne in all respects to be meete for the ministerie to whome also a cure in some place of Westmerland is to be committed to be kept from the same bycause he is vnknowne vnto them Let other men thinke of your de ises as they list in my iudgement they be méere phansies fond dreames grounded neither vpon the word of God neyther yet of any other good consideration Sure I am that they are contrary to the practise of reformed Churches and namely the Churches of Berne and Tygure As M. Musculus reporteth in his common
to him alone who knoweth those that be his If they communicate with vs in hearing the worde and receyuing the Sacramentes thoughe otherwyse they be drunkardes supersticious or infected with errours in doctrine c. yet must we count them in the Church vntil they be cut of from it by excommunication Wherefore whoremōgers Papistes Idolatrous and superstitious persons though they be knowne to be suche if they do cōmunicate with vs in the word and sacraments are to be counted in the Church vntill they be orderly secluded from the same And yet there may be Papistes Atheistes and suche lyke though they be not commonly knowne to be suche And you knowe well inough that they which in déede are Papistes in opinion yet if they be content to conforme them selues to the outwarde orders of the Churche would stande in their owne defense agaynst him that should accuse them They 〈◊〉 are in the Church and not of the Church are not hypocrite onely T. C. eueth place agaynst himselfe Neither is it true that onely hypocrites are suche as be in the Churche and are not of the Churche That chapter which you quote in your margent and almost the whole Epistle doth declare the contrarie For the incestuous Corinthian was in the Church vntill he was excommunicated And the Apostle there speaking of whoremongers Idolaters c ▪ sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur fuerit s ortator c. If any whiche is called Cor. 5. a brother be a fornicatour or couetous or an Idolater or a rayler or a drunkarde or an extortioner with suche one eate not By the name of brethren were those onely then called whiche did professe themselues to be Christians and were so accounted to be And master Caluine speaking agaynst the like errour of the Anabaptistes after that he had spoken of hypocrites in the Churche addeth and sayth Nonnunquà m etiam admixti Caluin aduers. Anabap. contemptores dei vitae dissolutae flagitiosae aut qui sibi cauebunt ne reprehendantur ab hominibus sed interim ostendunt se nullo dei timore nulla reuercntia tangi Oftentimes also there are mingled contemners of God men of dissolute and wicked life or suche as wil be sure to keepe them selues out of daunger of mens reprehension when as notwithstanding they shewe themselues not to be touched with any feare or reuerence of God If you meane that place 1. Cor. 5. where S. Paule sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur c. If any man which is called a brother c. and thinke that thereby they are secluded from the externall societie of the Churche you take the words of S. Paule amisse as the Anabaptistes did to whome obiecting that place M. Caluine answered in his booke written agaynst them in this maner Quòd autem vetat Paulus cum his cibum sumere Ibidem qui sunt vitae dissolutae id ad priuatam consuetudinem pertinet nō ad publicam cōmunionem VVheras Paule forbiddeth that we should eate with them which are of a dissolute life and behauiour that perteyneth onely to priuate familiaritie and not to the publike cōmunion Nowe if we ought to receyue the Communion with them we ought also to accompt them in the externall societie of the Churche But why do you thus séeke to shifte of those matters whiche you can not answere Is it not certayne that there is in the externall societie of the Churche a farre greater number of suche than there was in the Apostles time whiche if it be true as it can not be denied then do I still affirme that the election of the minister can not be safely committed to the people It is wel that you take vpō you to prescribe vnto the Magistrate how to deale with such as be not in the Church I pray you where finde you any such maner of dealing towards them appoynted vnto the ciuill Magistrate if you haue any scripture for it why do you not alleage it if you haue none what presumption is entred into you thus imperiously to prescribe lawes vnto Magistrates But what if there be playne scripture that they ought not to be admitted to the hearing of the worde if they be Math. 7. dogges and swine what say you to this Giue not that which is holy to dogges neither cast ye your pearles to swyne Your distinction betwixte the Churche and the common wealthe if it were in Neroes or Dioclesians time mighte be admitted withoute exception but in my opinion it is not so fytte in thys tyme and especially in this kingdome Maye he be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not in the Church of Christ if you had sayde that he maye be in the power and at the wyll and pleasure of a Christian Magistrate that is not in the Churche of Christe I coulde well haue lyked of it but it can not yet synke into my head that he should be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not also a member of the Churche of Christ concerning the outwarde societie M. Musculus in my iudgement speaketh truely agaynst this distinction of yours betwixte the Church and a Christian common wealth in his com pla it de magistra Let the Ethnikes and Infidels liuing not in the vnitie of truth but in the confusion Musculus of errors haue diuerse Magistrates and lawmakers some prophane and some holy bycause their lyfe is altogether prophane and their Religion nothing else but superstition Christian people are in euery respecte holy and consecrated vnto the name and glory of Christ not in temples onely and ecclesiasticall ceremonies but in all their lyfe in euerye place at all times in all things actions and studyes that according to the Admonition of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eateth or drinketh or whatsoeuer he doth he doth it to the glorie of God c. wherfore that distinction of ecclesiasticall and prophane lawes can haue no place in it bycause there is nothing in it that is prophane seyng that it is a holy people vnto the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie holy hys lawes holy c. be it therefore farre from the Church of Christ that it should be partly holy partly prophane c. But all this from the purpose and you make to many friuolous digressions from the matter which compelleth me also in following you to doe the lyke Chap. 6. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 45. Sect. 2. Fiftly in the Apostles time there was no Churche established being In the Apostles time no church established and no christian Magistrate then no Christian Magistrates and therefore the state of the Church was popular nowe there is Christian Magistrates and a Church established and subiect to rulers c. T. C. Pag. 35. Sect. 1. If there be no churches established bycause there were no Christian Magistrates then the churches of the Apostles were not established
this doth that we retaine in the Churche of England at this day and a great deale more Chap. 8. the. 3. Diuision The reasons why the people haue bene secluded from such elections and so ought Why the people haue bene nowe ought to be debarred from the election to be are these 1. Fyrst the meruailous contentions that haue bin in suche kinde of elections by the sinister affections of the people béeyng easily moued to diuision and partes taking vpon euery light occasion Examples wherof there be infinite almoste in euerye Contention about the election of ministers election as it may enidently appeare to euery one that hath but lyghtly runne ouer any Ecclesiastical historie When Damasus was chosen Bishop of Rome there was one Vrsicinus a Deacon Plat. in vita Damasi sette vp against him and the contention was so vehement betwixte them and the rage of the people so intemperate that they fell from voyces to blowes in somuch that there was many slaine euen in the place of election What sedition was there moued in the election of Boniface the second when Platina Dioscorus contended with him for the Bishoprike the people were so deuided that the contention could not be ended but with the death of Dioscorus The lyke brawle was in the elections of Conon Sergius Paulus 1. Constantinus Platina and almost in euery election made in that seate as it is euident in suche stories as especially entreate of the liues of the Bishops of Rome The lyke sturre there hath bin in other places also especially after that the churches were deuided with heresies and sects At Constantinople after the death of Alexander their Byshop there was a maruellous vprore for his successor some desiring to haue Paule a Catholike and some Macedonius an Arrian this contention was so vehement that the whole citie was disturbed and many slaine on both parties yea euen the Emperours officer that was sent to appease it Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 4. 7. The strife that was in the same place after the death of Atticus Philip Prochis and Sisinius striuing for the Byshopricke at one time Socrates testifyeth lib. 7. cap. 26. Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 4. 7. Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 26. Lib. 7. cap. 35. Sozom. lib. 4 cap. 28. Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 9. the same doth he write also to haue bin betwixt Philip and Prochis after the depriuation of Nestorius lib. 7. cap. 35. After Endoxius remoued from Antioch to Constantinople there was in Antioch great strife for a successor as the same Sozo sheweth lib. 4. cap. 28. where he addeth these wordes as in such things it commeth to passe that ther are diuers contentions and seditions betwixt the Cleargie and betwixt the people Socrates lib. 5. cap. 9. declareth the like tumultes to haue bin aboute the election of Flauianus and he addeth atque ita Antiochena ecclesia denuò non propter fidem sed propter Episcopos scinditur And so the Church of Antioch is agayne deuided not for matters of faith but for their Byshops I declared before out of Nazianzene in his funerall oration at the buriall of his father Nazianzene what great trouble and daunger was at Cesaria in his time about the election of their Byshops The same also I noted out of Augustine Epist. 110. it was the cause why August in tom 2. epi. 110. both he and his predecessor in their life times did prouide to themselues successors as it is there manifest Socrates lib. 6. cap. 11. declareth what contention there was at Ephesus about the election Socrat. lib. 6. cap. 11. of their Byshop the people being deuided into sundry factions in somuche that Chrysostome was himselfe enforced to appoint vnto them one Heraclis his Deacon The same Authoure lib. 7. cap. 7. testifyeth the like contention to haue bin in Alexandria Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 7. Euagrius li. 2. cap. 5. whilest some desired Timothie an Archdeacon othersome Cyrill Euagrius li. 2. ca. 5. writeth thus Cum antem bic Proterius c. when this Proterius was placed in the Byshops seate of Alexandria there arose a greate and intollerable tumult among the people which were tossed with diuers sentences for as it often falleth out in such cases some would haue Dioscorus agayne others stucke stoutly to Proterius so that many incurable mischieses were committed For Priscus the Rhetorician writeth that the gouernour of Thebes came the same time to Alexandria and saw the people wholly to set them selues agaynste the magistrates and that when the garison of souldiers woulde haue kepte backe the sedition they beate them backe with stones into the temple whiche was in times past called the temple of Serapis then the people comming thither with speede tooke the temple and burned the souldiers quicke But whēthe Emperour vnderstoode herof he sent thither two thousand new souldiers who hauing a prosperous winde passage arriued the sixt day after at the great citie of Alexandria and so raged against the wiues and daughters of the men of Alexandria that much more mischiefe was now wrought than before To what further inconuenience this intollerable contention came afterwards the same Euagrius writeth cap. 8. where he also describeth the manners and conditions of Euagrius li. 2. cap. 8. the people at large and declareth how easely they are moued to contentions and tumultuous dealing how willingly led by any factious person that pretēdeth liberty c. In the end he sheweth how villanously and cruelly they murdered Proterius appointed to be their Byshop What should I speake of that hurlyburly that was in Millains before the election Theod. lib. 4. cap. 6. Chrysost. lib. 3. de sacerdotio of Ambrose whereof Theodo speaketh lib. 4. cap. 6. I shal desire y e learned reader to peruse Chrysostome in the. 3. booke that he writeth de sacerdotio wher he speaketh of this matter plentifully declareth y e maruelous partialitie the vntollerable cōtentiōs that y e people vsed was y e cause of in such electiōs If I were disposed to heape vp examples I could fill a large volume but these being almost in the best time of the Church vnder Christian Princes manifestly declare what intollerable inconuenience ensueth such elections as are committed to the people especially in these matters 2 My seconde reason is that if suche elections shoulde be committed to the people the iuill Magistrate who hath the chéefe gouernment of the Churche and to whome the especiall care of religion doth apperteine should not be able to procure such reformation nor such consent and agreement in matters of religion as he is when he hath himselfe the placing of Bishops and such as be the chiefe of the Cleargie for the people The election of ministers by the people an impedimēt to the ciuill magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters who are commonly be t to nouelties and to factions and most ready to receyue that doctrine that séemeth to be
whiche they are not and admit you them as often as you will the Lorde pronounceth that they shall be no ministers to him which haue no * knowledge Qzee 6. But let vs heare your reason (a) It is youre owne reason there must be reading in the church therfore there must be ministers whiche can doe nothing else Then we may reason thus to There muste be breaking of bread and distributyng of the cuppe in the Church and pouring on water therfore whosoeuer is able to breake aloafe of bread or to lift a cup of wine or to poure on water on the bodye of the chylde may be made a minister And did you neuer reade y t there were readers in the Church when there were no reading ministers But of that of reading of the scriptures prayers in the Church there wyll be a fitter place to speake afterward where it shal be shewed how vniustly you surmise these things of them ▪ Touching Homilies shal be spoken more hereafter where further occasion is giuen Io. Whitgifte Sainct Paule 1. Tim. 3. and Tit. 1. sheweth what qualities a Bishop or a Pastor ought to haue but he doth not say that if none can be founde or not a sufficient number in whome all these qualities do concurre that then the Church shal rather be destitute of ministers than haue suche for there were in his time that swarued from this rule and yet was he glad they preached Of the ministers of this Churche of England though diuerse be ignorant yet inaye they by studye and diligente readyng of the Scriptures Catechismes Homilies and other godlie and necessarie bookes so profyte in knoweledge that althoughe they bée not able publikely to preache yet maye they bée able priuately to exhorte aud otherwyse also by Readyng the Scriptures and Homilies according to the order appoynted greately profyte the people of God But what should I contende with you in this matter Thys Churche of Englande in this poynt professeth nothing that is not allowed by the generall Confession of the Churches in Heluetia from the whiche I thinke you will not dissente That Confession as I tolde you before hathe these woordes VVe condemne all vnmete ministers not indued with giftes necessarie for a shepheard Confess Heluet that should feed his flock howbeit we acknowledge that the harmlesse simplicitie of some shepheardes in the olde churche did sometimes more profite the churche than the greate exquisite and fine or delicate but a little to proude learning of some others VVherfore we reiect not nowadays the good simplicitie of certain so that they bee not altogether vnskilfull of God and his worde There is nothing in that 6. of Ozee that serueth your turne You say that I reason thus There muste bee readyng in the Churche therefore there muste bee Ministers that can doe nothyng else You knowe what is wrytten Sapi. 1. Os quod mentitur c. The mouthe that speaketh lyes slayeth the soule c. I woulde it were not so vsuall with you My argumente is this that for somuche as there can not be a sufficient number of preachers to furnish this churche of England in al places therfore there may be reading ministers that is such ministers as by reading the scriptures other bookes apointed vnto them may profit y e people instruct them for reading is necessarie in the Church c. This is my reason That which you vse is a child of your own begetting it is none of myne as the Reader can not choose but perceiue The reason that foloweth of breaking bread and distributing the cup. c. is vsed but for a iest which ought not to be in serious matters therfore I leaue it to them that are disposed to laugh when they should rather wéepe I know there were readers of olde in the Churche but they had not authoritie to administer the sacramentes as our ministers haue and of necessitie must haue and Tract 9. ca. 2. the. 2. deuision lawfully may haue also as it shall be hereafter declared Chap. 2. the fourth Diuision T. C. Page 51. Sect. 7. I dooe not vse to maintayn the places which are quoted although they be truely alleadged for the (*) Nay it is bycause you can no for you wāt no good will causes which I haue before mentioned but yet I can not but speake of this place of saint Luke for feare of the daunger that may ensue For if this be a good reason y e the place of S. Luke may not be vsed to proue that preaching is perpetually annexed to the ministerie bicause in y t same place is made mention of curing of diseases which is but a temporall thing followed the ministerie but for a time then the comandement of S. Iames * that the elders of the Church should Iames. 5. pray for those that are sick is now no commaūdement bicause putting on of hands and anoynting of them that they might recouer their health hath no place and by this meanes you wyll pull from vs as many places of the newe testament as you did before of the olde Io. Whitgifte You would no doubt maintey all their places if you could for the quotations be the substance of that booke the thing that most persuaded the Reader which credited al things there written without examination thought it must of necessitie be true being so confirmed by the scriptures And surely you could not haue greatlier condemned the authors of that Admonitiō than in suffring so many quotations of theirs to passe without defense For what wickednesse can there be greater than to abuse the Scriptures in maynteyning of sects and errours The place of Luke is not answered the words of the texte be these and he sent Luke 9. them to preache the kingdome of God and to cure the sicke c. No man liuing can cōclude of this place the one more than he can do the other your words be but your owne There be other places a number that be more generall than this to proue preaching by this was peculiar and proper to the disciples as the whole circumstances of the place declare for they are also commaunded to take nothing with them in their iorney neither staues c. To preach is perpetuall but it can not be gathered of this place that none ought to be admitted into the ministerie but such as can preach bicause it was peculiarly spoken to the Apostles as the other circumstāces do proue The commaundement of Saincte Iames is generall for he telleth what all sicke men ought to doe and the ministers lykewyse that resorte to the sicke and therfore though the anoynting wyth oyle whiche was a signe of the gift of healing bée taken away bicause the gift is ceased yet doth praying remayne still and is perpetuall and not onely proper to some ministers of the Churche but common to all Wherfore the places be not lyke the one béeing spoken peculiarly to the disciples the
may lawfully be reteyned and worne whose iudgement and authoritie with learned and wyse men doth farre ouerreach your naked denyall Neyther doth Tertullian speake any thing in his books de corona militis that tendeth to the confutation of anye thing that Master Martyr hath here spoken but to the confirmation of it rather as he maye perceyue that with diligence readeth the booke Eusebius Lib. 4. cap. 11. sayth that Iustinus Martyr preached the Eusebius Gospell of Christ beyng apparelled lyke an heathen Philosopher S. Augustine de ciuit Lib. 19. cap. 19. writeth thus it perteyneth nothing to the Citie of God in what kinde of Augustine apparell or in what order of lyfe so that it be not agaynst God anye man followe this fayth whereby we come vnto God Therfore when Philosophers become Christians the church compelleth them not to chaunge their apparell or manner of lyuing whiche can nothing hinder Religion but onely she compelleth them to chaunge their false opinions Hilarie Hilarie also sayth in Psal. 67. that the spoyles of the heathens taken from the deuill are deuided to the furniture and ornamentes of the Churche of God So that the saying of Master Martyr is very true and confirmed by auncient authoritie and the vse of the Church as the testimonies of these fathers manifestly declare Where as you saye that if I would haue matched the surplice well I should haue sayd sensors tapers c. I tell you againe that it is not I but M. Martyr a famous and notable man that so matched them and at that time when the same matters were in controuersie and his iudgement required of them and therefore coulde not be written of him but with great aduisement Howbeit that you maye know something the more you muste learne to put a difference betwene Adiapbora vera Pseudoadiapbora those things that be indifferent in deede and those that are falsely accompted indifferent Chap. 5. the fifth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 59. Sect. 1. Pag. 60. Sect. 1. Bucer in an Epistle that he writte to Iohn Alasco is of the same Bucer iudgement his wordes are worthie to be noted and be these For if by no meanes it be lavvfull to vse those things vvhiche vvere of Aarons Priesthood or of the Gentiles then is it not lavvfull for vs to haue Churches nor holydayes For there is no expresse commaundement by vvord in the holy Scriptures of these things It is gathered notvvithstanding from the example of the olde people that they are profitable for vs to the encrease of godlynesse vvhich thing also experience proueth For any thing to be a What it is to be a note of Antichrist note of Antichrist is not in the nature of any creature in it selfe for to that ende nothing vvas made of God but it hangeth altogether of consenting to Antichristes Religion and the professing thereof The vvhich consent and The vse or abuse of things indifferent profession beyng chaunged into the consent and profession of Christianitie there can sticke in the things themselues no note or marke of Antichristes Religion The vse of Bels vvas a marke of Antichristianitie in our Churches vvhen the people by them vvere called to Masses and when they vvere roong against tempestes Novve they are a token of Christianitie vvhen the people by them are gathered together to the Gospell of Christ and other holy actions VVhy may it not then be that the selfe same garmentes Bucers opinion may serue godly vvith godly men that vvas of vvicked signification vvith the vngodly Truely I knovve very many Ministers of Christe most godly men vvho haue vsed godly these vestures and at this day doe yet vse them So that I dare not for this cause ascribe vnto them any faulte at all much lesse so heynous a fault of communicating vvith Antichrist for the vvhiche faulte vve may vtterly refuse to communicate vvith them in The distribution of bread wine in the sacrifices of deuils Christ. The Priests of deuils did celebrate in their sacrifices the distribution of bread and the cuppe as Iustinus Martyr and Tertullian make mention VVhat let is there vvhy vve may not vse the same ceremonies also you vvill say vve haue a commaundement of the Lord touching this ceremonie Very vvell And by the selfe same it appeareth that same thing to serue among the children of God to the seruice of Christ vvhich the vvicked abused in the seruice of deuils if the commaundement of Christ be added thereto But it is the commaundement of Christ that in our holy actions vveinstitute and vse all things so as comelinesse and order be obserued that fayth may be edified The same M. Bucer in another Epistle written to M. Cranmer Archbishop of Canterbury saith on this sort All true godly men may ☞ godly vse those rytes vvhiche vvicked men haue abused hovvsoeuer vngodly T. C. Pag. 56. Line 2. Sect. 1. It is true that M. Bucer saith that it is not in the nature of any creature to be a note of Antichrist but yet it followeth not thereof that the creature that hath bene accidentally and throughe abuse applyed to Idolatrie may be forthwith vsed as we shall thinke good For neither the Idols of the gentus nor the corruptions of those which offered had not power to make the beefe or mutton that was offered no good and holesome meate for the sustenaunce of man neyther cause that a Christian man could not eate them as beefe mutton but yet either to eate it at the table of Idols before them or else priuately in his owne house when there was any weake by that thought it an abhominable thing was not lawfull and yet the meate neuerthelesse the good creature of God and which might be receiued with thanksgiuing so the abuse of the surplis and coape c. cannot cause but that they may be vsed as cloth and silke And whereas he saith that they are changed and made of notes of Antichristianitie markes of Christianitie I say that they cannot be changed so by and d cree or commaundement for asmuch as notwithstanding that profession of chaunge the ha t s or men vnto whiche euery man must haue regard vnto are not changed For not so soone as the magistrate will say that these things shall be from hencefoorth vsed as things indifferent foorthwith men do vse them so but those only vse them so which haue knowledge both the ignorant and the weake take them still otherwise Io. Whitgifte Your answer to these learned and famous men is not of any moment at all for The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 answering of T. C. their reasons you answer only with wordes when as indéede their onely wordes for their godlinesse experience and learning sake ought to be of greater credite than your reasons but the aptnesse of your answers I referre to the iudgement of the reader séeing he hath both their words and yours before his eyes This only I note that
thought the doctrine of ceremonies to be conuenient Touching the great incommoditie and offence that you imagine to be in this apparell it is but your fansie which take y ◠apparel to be the cause of your nicenesse contempt disobedience cōtention such like remaining in you whē in deed it is nothing else but singularitie and preposterous zeale Wherfore that is to be remoued out of the hart rather than the apparel from the back To be shorte y t which you imagine of any opinion of the Religion in this aparel or superstition or any such lyke offence it is but a mere imagination to cloke couer the corruptions of the mynde before mentioned Chap. 5. the seuenth Diuision Answere to the Admonition Pag. 61. Sect. 1. I haue the rather set down these mens sayings at large bicause they be both pithie learned wholly to the cōfutation of your assertion Wherfore I conclude that a Christian Magistrate may reteine any ciuil politike or Ecclesiastical orders and rites of whom soeuer they wer inuēted or howsoeuer they haue bin abused so y t first they be not against the worde of God Secondly that Iustification and remission of synnes be not attributed vnto them Thirdly that the church be not troubled with the multitude of thē fourthly that they be not decreed as necessarie and not to be changed And last of all that men be not so tyed vnto them but that by occasion they may be omitted so that it be without offence and contempt T. C. Page 56. Sect. 4. And although they haue all these proporties whiche you recite yet if they bee not to edifying if not to God his glorie if not comely and agreeable to the simplicitie of the Gospell of Christ crucified they may not be established Io. Whitgifte It is sufficient if they perteyne to order and comelynesse as I haue before declared the iudgement whereof dothe not belong to euery priuate man but to suche onely as haue authoritie in the Churche to whose determination in suche matters all other of duetic are bound to submit themselues Chap. 5. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 62. Sect. 1. YEt one thing I must admonish you of that there is a difference A difference between worshipping of false gods and of the true God falsely to be made bewixt those things which were wholly dedicated to false gods and to be vsed in the worshipping of them and those things which were vsed in the false woorshipping of the true God for the Papistes herein differ from the Gentils that they acknowledge and confesse the true God and beleue the same articles of faith that we doe but yet worshyp him not aright nor beleue on hym in all poyntes as the worde of God prescribeth And therfore if thinges abused of the Gentiles and inuented by them maye bee vsed of Christians muche more may thinges inuented and abused by Papistes T. C. Page 56. Sect. 4. Concerning your distinction whereby you lessen the idolatrie of the Papistes I haue shewed the vanitie therof Io. Whitgifte And I haue answered whatsoeuer you haue there said but yet your reply in y t place will not serue euery circumstance of this place except you will say with y e Stoickes that peccata sunt paria all sinnes are equall Chap. 5. the ninth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 62. Sect. 1. But of this matter I mynde also to speake some thing in the second parte of this Admonition T. C. Page 56. Sect. 5. But of this matter you say you will speake againe In deede so you doe and againe wherin you confounde the memorie and vnderstanding of the Reader and declare your selfe not only ignorant of Aristotles rule of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is to speake of one thing generally and once for all but euen to be voyde of that order whiche men haue commonly by the naturall Logike of reason Neyther can you excuse your selfe in saying that the admonition giueth you so oftentimes occasion to speake of them and so to laye the fault vpon it for that it beyng written by diuets persons of the same matters wherof (a) A manifeste vntruth one knewe not of an others doing can not be blamed for the repetition of one thing twice when as you can not escape blame whiche myghte haue gathered easyly into one place that whiche is sayde of them in diuerse which thing although it be not so easy for me to do in your booke as it was for you to do in theirs yet I wil assay to doe it bothe in this and in all other poyntes that followe not thinking therby to bring this treatise of yours to any good order for that were to cast it newe againe and then you would complayne of your mind peruerted but that I might remedie this so great disorder which may be boone without chaunging any thyng of that which you haue set downe Io. Whitgifte I haue doone as you ought to haue doone if you had mente playnly for I haue folowed verbatim the booke that I confute in the same order that it is written which I thinke be that confuteth oughte to doe That the Admonition was written by dyuers persons the one not knowing of an others doing ▪ can not be true for both the partes haue one title they bée in one volume they were Printed in one letter at one tyme by one and the same Prynter and came abroade together neyther were they euer separated that I knowe or can vnderstande Moreouer this bewrayeth all and condemneth you for one that hath no conscience in wryting vntruthes that in the beginning of the Admonition mētion is made of both of these treatises in these woordes Two treatyses you haue heere ensuyng beloued in Christe whyche yee muste reade c. And in the ende of bothe these Treatises it is thus wrytten Weee haue thought good in the latter end of our booke for sundry consyderations to certifye you beloued brethren of the reasons that haue moued vs who are the authours of these treatyses to keepe backe oure names c. Fynally the order and maner of bothe these Treatises the stile the quotations c. doe manyfestly conuince you of false witnesse bearing but it is to vsuall with you I am not so cunning in Aristotle that I can be so bolde as to attribute that vnto hym whych is not to be founde in hym as you do in thys place for though he speake much of this rule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet hath he no such thing as you father vpon him in this place It is méete that he whyche wryteth a booke of any matters shoulde of one matter speake fully in one place but hée that confuteth muste followe his order whome hée confuteth Whyche if you hadde doone in my Booke as I haue doone in theyrs eyther woulde not youre vnfaithfull dealyng haue bin so muche or else must it sooner or easylier haue bin espied You re tauntes I leaue to your selfe that haue
adde ministeries they may also take away for those both belong to one authoritie (b) The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but they can not take away those ministeries that God hath placed in his Churche therefore they cannot adde to those that are placed in the Churche And this foundation I thought first to lay or euer I entred into M. Doctours not reasons but authorities not of God but of men in confuting of which there will fall forth also other arguments against both these offices of Archbyshop and Archdeacon Io. Whitgifte Your whole booke is for the moste parte buylded vpon that false founded argument The Replie grounded vpō the petition of the principle that is called Petitio principij For this will not be graunted vnto you which you haue so oftentimes repeated and wherevpon all your arguments are grounded that to appoynt Archbyshops or Archdeacons is to appoynt a new ministery It is as I tolde you before but to kéepe an order in the ministery and in the Churche and to execute that office of gouernment which the Apostles themselues did When Hierome sayde That for the auoyding of Schismes the ministers appoynted one among themselues to gouerne the rest Did he meane that they instituted a new ministerie A man may sée by this how vnable you are to defend your cause seing you are enforced to frame principles vnto your selfe agaynst the which you may reason that the ignorant reader may thinke your quarell to be iuste But nowe to your argument The Maior is not true for men may adde ministeries to those that be and breake not the will and commaundement of God bicause they may be helpes and furtheraunces to those ministeries that God hath appoynted But he can not take away such ministeries as God hath placed in his Churche to be perpetuall without breache of his will and commaundement Moreouer besides those ministeries that God hath appoynted in his woorde as necessary at all times there may be some added that be cōuenient for some times and yet the Churche that hath authoritie to adde these hath not the lyke authoritie to take awaye the other So that your Maior lacketh proofe Your Minor also is ambiguous for man can not take away those ministeries that God hath appoynted to be perpetuall in the Churche but he may take away those that be but temporall as occasion serueth If your foūdation be no sounder than this that you haue hitherto layde surely your buylding cannot long stande and M. Doctors authorities may well ynough encounter with all your reasons That the names of Metropolitane Archbishop c. be not Antichristian Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 65. Sect. 1. Firste therefore I proue that the names of Metropolitane and The antiquitie of Archbishops Archbishop c. be not Antichristian names that is names inuented by Antichrist but most aūciēt yea that they were in the Church lōg before the Gospell was publiquely embraced by any Prince or in any kingdome Polidore Virgil lib. 4. De inuentoribus rerum Cap. 12. saith that Clement in his boke entituled Compēdiarium Christianae religionis testifieth that the Apostle Peter did in euery Prouince appoynt one Archbyshop whom all other Byshops of the same prouince shoulde obey He sayth also that the same Archbishop was called Primas Patriarcha and Metropolitanus Peter was not Antichrist Ergo the name of an Archbishop is no Antichristian name T. C. Pag. 66. Sect. 4. 5. 6. 7. Pag. 67. Sect. 1. 2. Now I will come to the examining of your witnesses whereof some of them are so bored in the eares and branded in their foreheades that no man neede to feare any credite they shall gette before any iudge wheresoeuer or before whom soeuer they come but in the Romish courte and the Papistes onely excepted For to let go Polidore Uirgile bycause whatsoeuer he sayth he sayth of the credite of another let vs come to Clement which is the author of this you speake And what is he Is there any so blind that knoweth not that this was nothing lesse than Clement of whom S. Paule speaketh and which some thinke was the first Bishop of Rome ordeined by Peter and Phil. 4. Tertul. de praescript aduers. haeret not rather a wicked helhounde into whome the Lorde had sent Satan to be a lying spirite in his mouth to deceiue them for their vnthankful receyuing of the gospell And he must witnesse for the Archbishop a worthie witnesse For as all that Popish Hierarchie came out of the bottomlesse pit of hell so to vpholde the Archbishop the necke of it wherevpon the Romish monster standeth are raysed vp from hell bastards Clemens and Anacletus and indeede as it may appeare the very naturall sonnes of Satan and the sworne souldiours of Antichrist A man would haue thought that the Bishop of Salisburie M. Iuel had so pulled of the painting of the face of this Clement that all good men woulde haue had him in detestation so farre of would they haue bene to haue alledged out of him to proue any thing that is in controuersie The Bishop alledgeth both Eusebius and S. Hierome to proue that none of those woorkes In the replie to M. Hard. which go in his name are his and although the proofes be strong which the Bishop vseth beeing the witnesse of vnsuspected witnesses yet bicause the law although it allow two witnesses notwithstanding doth like the better of three I will set downe here also Ireneus which was a great while before them both and followed hard after the time of the true and vncounterfeyte Clement Li. 3. cap. 3. and therefore coulde best tell of him and of his wrytings and yet he maketh mention but of one Epistle which vpō occasion amongst the Corinthians he wrote to them Indeed in an other place of that booke he sheweth that it is verie probable that Clementalso eyther wrote or turned the Epistle to the Hebrues Nowe if that Epistle to the Counthes were extant we shoulde easily see by comparing those that are nowe in his name wyth that what a misshapen thing this is And if so be that Ireneus coniecture be good that Clement was the authour or interpreter of the Epstle to the Hebrues then what horrible iniurie is done to the holy Ghost while the same is supposed the wryter of thys booke to the Hebrues which is the authour of suche beggerie as thys Clement brought into the worlde And I pray you do you holde that it is the true Christian religion which that booke conteyneth Could none of these considerations driue you from the testimonie of this Clement It goeth verie harde with the Archbishop when these Clements and Anacletusses must be brought to vnderprop him But what if there be no such booke as this is which you name when you say in his booke intituled Compendiarium religionis Christianae it is like you know not him nor what he saith when you cannot tell so much as his name
Onely bicause Polidore wryteth that Clement sayth this in a certaine short and summarie booke of christian religion you haue set downe that he wryteth thus in a booke intituled Compendiarium Christianae religionis where there is no such tytle neither in the Councels where his Epistles are neyther yet in all other his workes Thought you to disguise him with this newe name of the booke that he should not be knowne or ment you to occupie your answerer in seeking of a booke which bicause he should neuer finde he should neuer answere The place which Polidore meaneth is in the first Epistle which he wryteth vnto Iames the brother of the Lord which is as the rest are both ridiculous in the maner of writing and in the matter oftner tymes wicked and blasphemous which I speake to this ende that the reader through the commendation that M. Doctor hath giuen to this Clement in taking him as one of his witnesses in so great a matter be not abused Io. Whitgifte Here is much more labour spent than is necessarie No man denyeth but that the Epistles attributed to Clement are Counterfeyte neyther do I otherwise alledge him or Anacletus or any such like than both M. Caluine M. Iewell and many other learned men do as it is euident in their writings That testimonie whiche I vse is out of Polidore and therefore haue I quoted both the booke and Chapter Polidore wryteth as other doe that intreate of such matters and for as muche as he was learned and of purpose gaue himselfe to the searching out of such things his report is not lightly to be reiected But God be thanked neyther the name nor the anthoritie of an Arfhbishop dependeth vpon these witnesses neyther do I vse them as sure groundes but as probable testimonies of the antiquitie of the name You haue cited the Canons of the Apostles thrise at the least in this your booke and Higinus likewise and vsed them as proofes and yet is there as great suspicion in the counterfeyting of them as there is of this booke of Clements I pray you therefore giue me that libertie in recyting Authours that you take to your selfe and that no man refuseth when they serue to his purpose For I protest vnto you that I haue as euil an opinion of many of them and think as great corruption to be in them as any man doth and that not only bicause I haue so red in other mens writings of them but also for that I my self in reading of thē haue noted the same But I am well assured that Polidore ment that Clement which is supposed to be the first Bishop of Rome how he was therein deceyued béeing so learned a man I leaue it to others to iudge It is not like that Polydore ment that Epistle for hée knewe what difference there was betwixt an Epistle and a booke neyther doth the length or the matter of that Epistle giue anie occasion that it shoulde so be called wherefore it is like that Polydore had it out of some booke attributed vnto Clement vnder that title thoughe the same be not extant For there be diuerse woorkes of auncient fathers whiche bée not now ertant in print and yet in some places to be had But I will not stande longer in this matter The wordes of Polydore be these Sicut D. Clemens in suo Christianae religionis compendiario libello perhibet c. Chap. 2. the second Deuision T. C. Pag. 67. Sect. 3. For answere vnto him although he be not worth the answering I say first it may bee well sayd here of the office of the Archbishop that the father of it was an Amorite and mother an Hittite that is that it commeth of verie infamous parentage the beginning thereof beeing of the Idolatrous nations Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes of pleasure it will appeare in this discourse that the parents and authours both of the office and of the name be such as ought with greater reuerence to be spoken of and with greater signification of duetie Chap. 2. the thirde Diuision T. C. Pag. 67. Sect. 4. And whereas Clement maketh S. Peter the Apostle to make it as it were his adopted sonne therby to wipe away the shame of his birth it doth S. Peter shamefull iniurie For besides that it was farre from S. Peter to take this authoritie to himself not only of making Archbishops thorowout euery Prouince but also instituting a new order or of fice without the counsell of the rest of the Apostles which none else of the Apostles did and which is cōtrarie to the practise of S. Peter both in the first and sixt of the Actes contrarie also to the practise of the Apostles which after shall appeare I say besydes this is it like that S. Peter woulde graffe the noblest plant as it is sayd of the ministerie of the Gospell in such a rotten stock of that which was most abhominable in all Idolatrie For the greater they were in the seruice of the Idolles the more detestable were they before God Io. Whitgifte I do not take vpon me the defense of Clements wordes in that Epistle or of Polydore in the booke and Chapter before recyted in all things that they spake touching the matter But I cannot suffer your vaine reasons to serue for an answere For if Saint Peter did thus place Archbishoppes yet did he not appoynt any newe order or office as you haue bene oftentymes tolde Of all Byshops there is one order or One ministerie of bishops but diuerse degrees ministerie but diuerse degrées Betwéene an Archbyshop and a Bishop there is onely a difference of degrée and dignitie not of order or ministerie as diuerse learned men giue vnto Peter aboue the rest of the Apostles the preheminence of honour for orders sake but not of power Moreouer Peter in appoynting them without the consent of the other Apostles did no otherwise than the Apostle S. Paule whē he placed Timothie at Ephesus and Titus at Creta It may be also that in some places where there were before Archiflamines he placed such as were called Archbishops c. whiche might be done in respect of y e city place and not in respect of the idolatrous priests For Archiflamines were but in great Cities which being conuerted vnto Christ might haue in the place of their Archiflamines Godly and learned Archbishops to ouersée and direct the rest of the Bishops and Preachers that vnitie and order might be obserued Thus Paule did at Ephesus and Creta And why might not Peter do it in other places likewise Chap. 4. the fourth Diuision T. C. Pag. 67. Sect. 5. 6. 7. 8. The Lorde when he woulde giue lawes of woorshipping to his people in the things that were indifferent of shauing and cutting and apparell wearing sayth to his people that they should not do so and so bicause the Gentiles did so yea euen in those things the vse whereof was otherwise verie profitable and incommodious to forbeare he
Controuersie about the nūber of y e Canons conci Niceni by the words of the Canons but by the iudgement of those whose learning Religion was neuer as yet stained I know that there is no small controuersie about the number of the Canons of that Synode In the booke of the Coūcels there are only twentie in Ruffine 22. Athanasius in an Epistle that he as some thinke with the other Byshops of Egypt writte to Marcus Byshop of Rome if any credite is to be giuen vnto Canons ascribed to the Nicene councell not found in the number extant Con. Arelat that Epistle writeth that there were first 80. and afterwards the same brought into 70. Canons Isodorus in his preface to the Councell sayth that in the decrées of Pope Iulius there is mention made of 70. Canons so that for the number of the Canons there is great difference in the writers Concilium Arelatense the second Canon the. 24. doth recite a Canon of the Councell of Nice touching infamous libels which is not to be founde among the. 20. Hierome in his preface vpon the booke of Iudith sayth that the Councell of Nice did Hieronymus recken that booke in the number of the holy scriptures and yet there is no such thing to be founde among those 20. Canons Ambrose Lib. 10. the Epistle 82. attributeth another Canon to the Councell of Nice Ambrose concerning second Mariages in clarkes I could recite more Canons alledged by good writers out of that Councell which are not to be founde in those 20. or 22. but it shall not néede Wherefore though I haue alleaged moe Canons than are to be founde in the volume of Councels yet I haue done nothing which is straunge neither haue I alleaged any Canon that is not agréeable to the sixth and seuenth wherof there is no doubt and according to the true meaning of those two Canons as they be interpreted by the The. 25. 26. 27. Canons differ onely in number not in substance from the true Canons best learned And in very déede the. 25. 26. 27. Canons by me alleaged are the verye same with the. 6. 7. differing onely in number wherin I followed the author that so placed them And in the. 13. Canon the name of Archbyshop is added wherof more shal be spoken hereafter God willing M. Hardings 44. Canon is plaine repugnant to the sixth Canon and therefore without all doubt a counterfeite But the Canons that I haue alleaged agrée both with the sixth and seuenth and therefore not vnlike to be truely attributed to that Councell in these poyntes wherein I haue alleaged them Chap. 2. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 1. I feare greatly some craftie dissembling Papist had his hand in this booke who hauing a great deale of rotten stuffe which 〈◊〉 could not vtter vnder his owne name being already oste brought it vnto the author hereof (*) You 〈◊〉 you vse which hath vpon his credit wythout further examination set it to sale Peraduenture you will thinke scorne to be censured and reprehended of a poore minister of the countrey and therefore I will turne you ouer for your lesson in this behalfe vnto the Byshop of Salisburie in his replie against M. Harding touching the article of the Supremacie Io. Whitgifte Feare not I warrant you I haue alleaged nothing which I am not hable by sufficient testimonie to proue that I haue read my selfe And therefore your surmise is but grounded vpon your owne practise Whatsoeuer the Byshop of Salisbury sayth in his reply against Harding touchyng the Canon alleaged by him is most true and I doe most willingly acknowlenge it so to be neither doe I take any Canon of that Councell as vndoubtedly tru but these 20. specified in the first Tome of Councels the other I haue onely mentioned as ble bicause they agrée with them and yet all the Canons that I haue alleaged be tant in print and the booke is commonly to be solde and therefore I haue not receiued them of any other Chap. 2. the. 22. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 66. Sect. 3. Ambrose also that olde and learned father both alloweth the name Ambrose and office of an Archbyshop Lib. de dignitate Sacerdotum cap. 5. T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 2. If (*) Ambrose i little beholding to you that cannot be accepted for a wi nesse all shoulde be allowed of that S. Ambrose alloweth of then besydes other thyngs which he holdeth corruptly the mariage of the Ministers should go very hard but it is worthy to be obserued wyth what wordes Ambrose doth allowe of the Archbyshop that all men may vnderstande 1. Lib. offi cap. 50. howe lowe it goeth wyth M. Doctor for his defence of the Archbyshop and how the Archbyshop is so out of credit that there cannot be gotten any to be suertie for his honestie Ambrose complayning of the Ministers or Byshops in those dayes sayth if a man aske them who preferred them to be Priests answere is made by and by that the (a) In those words Ambrose doth not dissa low the office but the abuse of it by the person Archbyshop for an hundred shillings ordeined me Byshop to whome I gaue an hundred shillings that I myghte get the fauour to be Byshop whych if I had not giuen I had not bene Byshop and afterwarde he saythe that this greeued him that the Archbyshop ordeyned Byshops carnally or for some carnall respect and this is all the allowance that Ambrose sheweth of an Archbyshop Your Archbyshop taketh all things in good part so that his very dispraise he expoundeth to his commendation Io. Whitgifte I know no man whose writings and workes are so perfect the writers of the Canonical scriptures excepted that all things in their bookes are to be allowed But God forbyd that we should therefore reiect that which they haue well and truely spoken you will doe little for Ambrose if you will not allowe him for an historicall witnesse of that which was in his tyme this is therefore a shifting answere but nothing commendable It euidently appeareth by that place that in his tyme there were Archbyshops for what though he reproue the abuse of some Archbyshops in ordeyning Byshops Ministers for monie doth he therefore disalowe either the name or the office Nay this is rather to be concluded that there were Archbyshops in Ambroses tyme which had authoritie to ordeine Bishops bycause Ambrose doth reproue suche Archbyshops as for carnall respects ordeined Byshops Your vndutifull and arrogant frumpes and scoffes I passe ouer It séemeth by your so oft vsing them that you are afraide least you should be taken for a modest Christian Chap. 2. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 3. And there is great (*) An vnlikely likelyhoode voyde of truth likelyhoode that the Archbyshop which Ambrose maketh mention of was no other than he which for the time ruled the action wherin Byshops were ordeyned and after the
action ended had no more authoritie than the rest Io. Whitgifte If you had read any auncient storie or father yea if you had but perused M. Caluines Institutions the. 8. Chapter or any writer intreating of this matter you would neuer haue vttered this vaine coniecture nor shewed so manifest a token of greate ignorance and no reading For it shall appeare by sufficient testimonie that neyther the name nor office of an Archbyshop was any thing at all straimge in this time And the authors of the Centuries Cent. 4. can tell you that Ambrose himselfe was Metropolitanus Ambrose a Metropolitane Cent. 4. cap. 10 plurium coniunctarum ecclesiarum administratione fungens A Metropolitane gouerning many Churches adioyning together Your coniecture that this Archbishop should be no other than he which for the time ruled the action wherin Byshops were ordeined and after the action ended had no more authoritie than the rest is a méere phansie of your owne contrarie to all authoritie and withoute any grounde or similitude of reason and yet you often repeate it and make it the foundation of this your building But let vs heare your coniectures Chap. 2. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 4. And I am moued so to thinke First bicause it is not like that one onely ordeyned Byshops being contrarie to the olde Canons of the best Councels but that there were other and that this whō Ambrose calleth Archbyshop did gather the voyces c. Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed before that it was not so strange at this time for the Byshop alone to ordeine Ministers And yet Ambrose in this place signifieth that the people had Ambrose somewhat to doe in this matter for he calleth them populum nugacem indoctum qui talem sibi asciuerunt sacerdotem a people that trifeleth and is vnlearned that hath gotten vnto them such a priest But I pray you where is now your distinction betwixt election ordination For Ambrose speaketh in this place of ordeyning and not of electing If you wyll néedes so distinguishe them that they maye not bée at any tyme nor in any place confounded then haue you answered youre selfe here and wyth one coniecture ouerthrowne an other But howesoeuer it is coniectures can not preuayle agaynst so manyfest a truthe being so silly coniectures For tell mée where you euer redde that he was called an Archbishop that did only gather the voyces or that this name was attributed to any during the action only and no longer This is verie newe Diuinitie vnhearde of in any good Authour that I haue readde or can heare of Chap. 2. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 5. Secondly bycause it was verie vnlyke that there was any absolutely aboue S. Ambrose in those partes where he complayneth of euill bishops or ministers made Io. Whitgifte Why to whom or for whom did Ambrose write this booke for his owne prouince or Diocesse only therein are you deceyued that you thinke Ambrose to haue written this booke for his owne Prouince onely when he writte it to profite the whole Churche as it may appeare in the fyrst Chapter of that Booke Neither doth he complaine of suche euill Bishoppes or ministers as were vnder him for then should he haue complayned of himselfe béeyng theyr Metropolitane but of suche he complayneth as were in other places and Prouinces as may be séene by these wordes of his Ita vt videas in Ecclesia passim quos non merita sed pecuniae ad Episcopatus De dig Sacer cap. 5. ordinem prouexerunt So that a man maye see euery where in the Churche suche as are promoted to the order of a Bishop not by desertes but by money and therefore this coniecture is soone answered Chap. 2. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 6. Thirdly for that Ambrose in an other place which you after cite deuidyng all the Church into the cleargie and laytie dothe subdeuide the cleargie into Byshoppes Elders and Deacons and therefore it is not lyke that there was any which had any continuall function of archebyshoppe But as he was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or leader of the daunce which commeth fyrst and after commyng in agayne in the seconde or thyrde place is no more so called so that bishop was called Archebishop which for the time present did gather the voyces of the rest of the bishops which he by and by layde downe with the dissoluyng of the meetyng And that thys is not my coniecture only that there was no ordinarye or absolute Archebishop (*) Where or which centurie let the Centuries be seene (a) Vntruth whych alledge that place of Ambrose to proue that the office of an archebishop was not then come into the Churche which was foure hundred yeares after Christ and more also Io. Whitgifte This is a dauncing deuise in déede withoute any shadow of truthe as it maye appeare by that whiche already is alleadged and shall do more and more by that which followeth You are maruellous circumspect in your quotations least you shoulde be tripped and therefore you saye let the Centuries be seene but you tell not where Surely you doe verie vntruely reporte the Centuries for I haue redde them where they doe alleadge that place of Ambrose and there is not to be founde any suche matter but the cleane contrarie as is to be séene in that place Cent. 4 cap. 7. by you alleadged of the fourth Cent. the wordes be these Episcopi Metropolitani dicebantur à praecipuis seu primarijs ciuitatibus sicut Basilium Metropolitanū Capadocū Zozomenus vocat lib. 3. cap. 16. Et Archiepiscopi qualem Seleuciae fuisse Simeonem idem retulit lib. 2. cap. 8. Patriarcha totius alicuius prouinciae diceba ur Episcopus vt Socrates indica Lib. 5. cap. 8. Bishoppes and Metropolianes were named of the chiefe and princip ll Cities as Zozomenus calleth Basile the Metropolitane of Cappadocia lib. 3. cap. 16. and Archebishoppes suche as he reporteth that Simeon was of Seleucia lib. 2. cap. 8. Patriarke of some whole prouince was called a Bishop as Socrates sheweth lib. 5. cap. 8. Wherefore it is too much boldnesse in you to auouche so manyfest vntruths Neyther is it any maruel though you quote not the places for forgerie séeketh corners Forgerie seeketh corn rs And although that whiche hath bin hytherto alleadged out of the Councells of Nice and Antioche with the iudgemente of so manie learned men interpretyng the same might serue to perswade any reasonable man that the office and name of Archebishoppe and Metropolitane is bothe of greate antiquitie and not for one action onely or a dauncyng office as you woulde haue it but fixed and permanent yet bycause I haue to doe wyth quarellers before I goe any further in confuting I will 〈◊〉 downe the iudgement of other aunciente and famous wryters also who allowe bothe of these names and offices And fyrste I will recite suche as haue the names expressed
with the offices then suche as speake of the very thyng it sel e withoute the names I will begin with Councels The Councell of Nice as you haue hearde hath the name of Metropolitane Councels of the name and o ice of Metropolitane an Archbishoppe c. Con. Ni en Can. 4. 7. and dothe limitte vnto ym certaine Prouinces to gouerne and take the care of It hathe bin declared that bothe M. Caluine Illyricus M. Foxe and others doe acknowledge the names and office of Patriarkes and Archbishoppes c. in the same Canon to be conteyned Neyther doe they nor any other learned wryter denie these names and offices to haue bene in the primitiue Churche and that fixed to certayne places and persons not mouable by actions nor practised by course Lykewyse you haue hearde howe that Councell by this clause Secundùm morem antiquum according to the auncient custome doth signifie that these names and offices haue bene in the Churche of long tyme or else it woulde not haue bin saide to be an olde custome Moreouer the nynthe Canon of the Councell of Antioche before alledged is Con. Antiocb can 9. most playne and euident both for the name and the thing together with the long continuance of them in the Churche The. 20. Canon of the same Councell of Antioche sayeth directly that no Bishoppes Can. 20. may call a seuerall Councell withoute the consente of theyr Metropolitanes In the sixth and. 37. Canons Concilij Arelatensis mention is made of the Metropolitane Con. Arelat cano 6. 37. of his authoritie in ordering of bishoppes and of the authoritie of his Synode The lyke bothe for the name and the matter also touchyng ordeynyng of Con. L odic can 12. Con Cartb 2. Can 12. Byshoppes is in the twelsth Canon of the Councell of Laodicea In the seconde Councell of Carthage in the twelfthe Canon it is euident that there was a Primate in euerye Prouince and that withoute his commaundement it was not lawfull for any to bée ordeyned Bishop In the. 13. and. 17. and diuers other Canons of the general Councell of Carchage Con. Carth. can 13. ▪ 17. c Con. Chalcedo as it is in the Gréeke copie the authoritie of the Primate is also expressed In the Councell of Chalcedon the name of Archebishoppe is sundrye tymes vsed Flauianus is there called Archebishop of Constantinople Dioscorus Archebishop of Alexandria and one Atticus bishoppe of Nicopolis dothe call the saide Dioscorus Archi piscopum nostrum our Archebishop Leo is called Archebishop of Rome c. Of the Councels that folowed there is no doubte and it were but superfluous for mee to stande in reciting of them and therfore thys shall suffise for the Councels to shew that bothe the name of Metropolitane or Archbishop and also the authoritie is not vnhearde of in the Churche of Christ or a flitting or slyding office Fathers and 〈◊〉 of the name and 〈◊〉 t Archebishop E phanius Nowe to the fathers and stories Epiphanius Lib. 2. tom 2. haeri 68. calleth one Peter Archebishoppe of Alexandria And that it maye fully appeare that it was bothe a continuall office and of greate authoritie and iurisdiction I will sette towne his woordes Et Meletius quidem in carcere detentus erat vnà cum praedictis Martyribus ac Petro Alexandriae Arc iepiscopo c. And Meletius truely was kepte in pryson togyther with the forenamed Martyrs and Peter the Archbishop of Alexandria and Meletius seemed to excell the other bishops of Aegypt for he had the seconde place after Peter in his Archbishoprike as being vnder him to helpe him and looking to Ecclesiasticall matters vnder him For this is the custome that the Byshoppe of Alexandria hathe the Ecclesiasticall gouernmente of all Aegypte Thebais and Mareota and Libya and Ammonica and Mareotis and Pentapolis In the same leafe he calleth this Peter Archbyshop thrée times This Peter lyued in the yeare of our Lorde thrée hundred and foure twentie yeres at the least before Peter Arch bishop of Alexandria abou twentie yeres before the Councell of Nice Idem the Councell of Nice The same Epiphanius in the same Booke and Tome baere 69. writeth thus Quotquot enim Ecclesiae in Alexandria catholicae Ecclesiae sunt sub vno Archiepiscopo sunt All the Churches that are Catholike Churches in Alexandria are vnder one Archebyshoppe And a little after he calleth Meletius Archebyshoppe of Aegypte but yet subiecte to Alexander the Archebyshoppe of Alexandria and all this was before the Councell ot Nice What can be spoken more aptely and more playnely to my purpose And if T. C. will cauill at the authoritie of the authour whyche is the poorest shifte that can bée especially when the authour is so generally allowed then for breuities sake I doe referre hym to the Epistle of Ianus Cornarius prefixed before this Booke and to that whiche after warde I haue alledged in his defense out of the Centuries Athanasius was called Archebyshoppe of Alexandria and that it may appeare that it was not a bare title but an office of Gouernment you shall finde these wordes in his second Apologie Iscbaras quidam vt nequaquam clericus ita moribus improbissimus conatus est sui pagi insulas decipere iactans sese clericum esse Id vbi resciuisset eius loci Presbyter mibi tum Ecclesias Atbanas Apol. 2. perlustranti renunciauit ego igitur c. A certaine man named Ischaras as hee was no Clearke so was hee most wicked in manners who wente aboute to deceyue the yles of his precincte boasting that hee was a Clarke when the Prieste of that place vnderstoode thereof hee tolde it vnto mee when I was visiting my Churches so I sente the same man togyther wyth Macharius the Prieste to fetche vnto mee Ischaras whome when they founde sicke in his chamber they commaunded hys father to warne hys sonne that hee attempted no suche thing as was reported of him And after in the same place followeth Ischaras Letters of submission to Athanasius In the same Apologie there are Letters of submission written by Arsennius Byshoppe of Hipsell and the Ministers and Deacons of the same Diecesse to Athanasius the beginning of the Letters is this Et nos quoque diligentes pacem vnanimitatem cum ecclesia catholica cui tu per Dei gratiam praefectus es volensque ecclesiastico Canoni pro veteri instituto subijci scribimus tibi Papa dilecte promittimusque in nomine Domini nos deinceps non communicaturos cum schismaticis c. And we also louing peace and concord with the Catholike Churche ouer whiche thou arte by the grace of God appoynted and willing accordyng to the olde custome to be subiecte to the Ecclesiasticall Canon write to thee louing father and in the name of the Lorde promise that wee hences orth will not communicate with the Schismatikes By this it is playne that Athanasius had great iurisdiction ouer many Byshops and other
haue much a do to proue that Antichrist had not inuaded the sce of Rome when your Clement Anaclete Anicete and Damasus wrote nay it is most certayne that then he had possessed it but what is that to the purpose although there was no one singular head appeared or lifted vp yet corruptiō of doctrine of the sacraments hurtful ceremonies dominion pompe of y e Cleargie new orders functions of y e ministerie which were the hāds that pulled him y e feete which brought him the shoulders that lifted and heaued hym vp into that seat were in the Church Neither while you do thus speake do you seeme to remember that this monster needed not nine monethes but almost nine hundred yeares to be framed and fashioned or euer he could with all his parts be brought to light And althoughe the louer of this Antichristian building were not set vp yet the foundations thereof being secretly and vnder the grounde laid in the Apostles time you might easily know that in those times that you spake of y e building was wonderfully aduaunced growen very high and being a very daungerous thing to ground any order or pollicie of the Churche vpon men at all which in deede ought to haue their standing vpon the doctrine and orders of the Apostles I wyll shew what great iniurie M. Doctor doth to send vs for our examples and patterns of gouernment to these times which he doth dicette vs vnto Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes the same mighte be also spoken of the Apostles times For Antichrist began in the Apostles tunes 2. Thess. 2. 1. Io. 2. enen then Paul speaking of Antichrist sayd Nam mysterium nuncagit iniquitatis for the mysterie of iniquitie doth already worke And S. Iohn sayd that there then began to be many Antichristes but doth this detract any thing from the truth taught in that time or shall we therfore refuse to take such examples of it as is conuenient for our time There is no man of learning and modestie which will without manifest proofe condemne any order especially touching the gouernment of the Churche that was vsed and allowed during the time of the primitiue Church which was the next 500. yéeres after Christ within the which time most of my authorities are conteined Neyther was there any functiō or office brought into the Church during al that time allowed by any generall Councel or credible writer which was not most meete for that time and allowable by the word of God I graunt that Antichrist was working all this time and grewe more and more for else could there neuer haue bene so many sectes and heresies from time to tyme spred in the Church which was the cause of so many singular and notable Councels so many profitable and necessary bookes written by such learned and godly Doctors as did with might and maine striue against them Out of the which Councels and fathers and best witnesses what was done in those times I haue fetched my proofes euen out of them I say that did with might and maine labour to kepe out Antichrist from the possession of the Church and therefore not to be suspected to consent to Antichrist I knowe that those sectes and heresies gaue strength vnto Antichriste and at the length were one speciall meanes of placing him in his throne euen as I am also perswaded Antichrist worketh in England by contentious persons that he worketh as effectually at this daye by your styrres and contentions wherby he hath and will more preuaile against this Church of England than by any other meanes whatsoeuer Therefore it behoueth you to take héede how you deuide the armie of Christ which should vnanimiter fight against that Antichrist As for vs we must follow the examples of those good fathers and labour accordingly to restore vnitie and to preserue it Chap. 2. the. 37. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. vlt. Eusebius out of Egesippus writeth y e as long as the Apostles lyued y e Church remained a pure virgin for that if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached they Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 32. did it in the darke and as it were digging vnderneath the earth But after the death of the Apostles and that generation was paste whiche God vouchsaued to heare the diuine wisedome with their owne eares then the placing of wicked error began to come into the Church Io. Whitgifte It is euident in diuerse places of the Scripture namely in the first Epistle to the Corruptions in the churche in the Apostles time ▪ Corinthians and the Epistle to the Galath that there were many grosse and greate corruptions openly professed in the Churche by diuerse not onely in maners but also in doctrine euen in the Apostles tyme and Eusebius hymselfe declareth that there Euseb. lib. 2. Cap. 13. Idē Lib. 3. was one Simon mencioned Acts. 8. whom he calleth the author of all heresie Lib. 2. Cap. 13. Likewyse he sheweth Lib. 3. that Ebion Cerinthus and the Nicholaites all horrible heretikes were in the Apostles time Wherefore if this be a good reason then is it not safe for vs to follow no not the Apostles time Chap. 2. the. 38. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 1. Element also in a certayne place to confirme that there was corruption of doctrine immediately Li. stromat somvvhat after the be ginning after the Apostles time alleageth the prouerb that there are fewe sonnes like their fathers Io. Whitgifte I can finde no such thing in Clement but the matter is not great whether he saye so or no. The argument is starke noughte for if this followe that we may take no example paterne or testimonie of gouernment out of that time bycause it was corrupte then by the same reason muste we not take examples of any tyme no not out of the Apostles time bicause that was also corrupte as I haue saide Your argumentes be passing strong surely I maruaile with what boldnesse you write them Chap. 2. the. 39. Diuision T. C. Page 74. Sect. 2. And Socrates sayth of the Church of Rome and Alexandria which were the most famous Li. 7. 11. Churches in the Apostles tymes that aboute the yeare 430. the Romane and Alexandrian Byshops (*) Socrates fal fied leauyng the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule or dominion wherevpon we see that it is safe for vs to goe to the Scriptures and to the Apostles tymes for to fetche our gouernment and order and that it is very daungerous to drawe from those ryuers the fountaynes wherof are troubled and corrupted especially when as the wayes whereby they runne are muddier and more fennie than is the head itselfe Io. Whitgifte You falsifie the wordes of Socrates for thus be sayth For euen till that tyme the Nouatians florished maruellously at Rome and had manye Churches and had gathered Socra lib. 7. Cap. 11. muche people But enuie tooke holde of
3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 75 Sect ▪ 3. And heere by the way it is to be obserued of the Reader howe neere a kinne the pope and the Archbishop be For this office is confirmed by the same (a) Truly places that the (b) Falsly popes is The places and arguments which are brought agaynst him are soluted with the same solutions that they vse which maynteyne the Papacie For these places of Cyprian be alleadged for the popes supremacie and (c) In deede you knowe this is vntrue in deede they make as muche for the pope as the Archbishop For althoughe they be two heads yet they stande vpon one necke and therefore the reformed Churches whiche cut righte dyd strike them both of at one blowe Io. Whitgifte This argueth eyther wilfull ignorance or professed malice for you can not but knowe that Cyprian meaneth of the subiection that ought to be giuen to Cornelius in his owne Prouince and that the Papistes wrest the same to proue his vniuersall iurisdiction ouer all Christendome Nowe if a man maye not alleadge that truely according to the true sense and meaning of the author whiche the Papistes abuse to serue their turne then muste we abstayne from alleadging diuers places of the Scripture It is true that the Papistes vse this place for the Popes supremacie but falsly for Cyprian onely meaneth of the superioritie of a Metropolitane or Bishop in his Prouince or Diocesse And the Papistes them selues haue giuen ouer their holde that they tooke of those places of Cyprian confessing that he ment of euery seuerall Byshop in his owne Diocesse or Prouince as appeareth in Dormans Hardings latter bookes and others And is this kinde of reason so neare a kinne to the Papists which vtterlye ouerthroweth one of their strongest argumentes Surely I maruell that your desire is so muche to write agaynst the person that in the meane time you neglect the common cause and giue strength as muche as lyeth in you to the reason of the aduersarie whylest you say that this place maketh as muche for the Pope as it dothe for the Archbishop But the truthe of this your Replie shall appeare when I haue answered your other cauilles Chap. 3. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Page 75. Sect. 3. In neyther of the sentences heere alleaged out of Cyprian nor in all his works as hathe bin before noted is there one worde of an Archbishop and yet M. Doctor sayth that he speaketh of an Archbishop before he shewed the name without the office and now he goeth about to shew the office without the name so that he can neuer make both the name and the office meete togither To shape out an Archbishop here you must needes interprete the words Bishop and priest Archbishop and high priest for Cyprian maketh mention of no other name of ministerie in those places and if you may haue this scope of interpreting it will not be harde for you to proue that stones be bread and that chalke is cheese Io. Whitgifte Epiphanius lib. 2 tom 2. haer 69. dothe call the Bishop of Alexandria sometyme Bishop Epiphanius Concil Calc and sometime Archbishop The Councell of Calceden in like maner calleth the same men as Flauianus Dioscorus Leo other sometimes Bishops and sometimes Archebishops the lyke is to be séene in other authors and wryters So that the omitting of the title is no reason at all to disproue the thing It is certayne that in Cyprians time this name Papa was a common name to many Bishops those especially that were of fame as M. Foxe at large declareth tom 1. fol. 11. And yet doth not Cyprian vse that title commonly when he wryteth to Cornelius or to any other Bishop This therfore is but a féeble argument Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Page 75. Sect. 3. Let vs see what is a Bishop or Priest I vse the name of priest agaynst my will but bicause it is sacerdos and you so translate it that it may better be vnderstanded what I answere to you I am content to followe you so farre I saye let vs consider what is a Bishop or priest by S. Ciprian and thereby wee shall knowe what an Archbishop he setteth foorth vnto vs whiche thing may appeare manyfestly by that which he sayth in the same Epistle that the Bishop that is appoynted into the place of him that is dead is chosen peaceably by the voyee of all the people (*) A cauill I thinke you will not say that all the people throughout the whole Prouince or throughout a whole Diocesse as we count a Diocesse met togither for that had bin both a great disorder and confusion a great charge to the Churche and in the time of persecution as that was to haue offered the whole Church in all the prouince into the mouth of the wolfe Io. Whitgifte If you had read Ecclesiasticall histories then shoulde you vnderstande that the Metropolitanes and Bishops of euery Prouince and Diocesse were chosen in the presence of the people of that place and citie whereof they had their names and that the consent of no other of the people in that Prouince or Diocesse was required So Cyprian himselfe thoughe he had so ample a charge as I haue shewed before yet was he chosen onely by the people of Carthage The same is to be séene also in other suche elections and especially of the Bishop of Rome after that he was in his greatest glorie and therefore this is a poore argument The Bishop of Rome or of Carthage were chosen by the consent of the Citizens onely and not of the people in other places of the Prouince Ergo their authoritie iurisdiction extended no farther than these Cities and yet the whole Diocesse that is the Christians in the Diocesse suche I meane as were appoynted for that purpose mighte haue met in that time without perill or any other such inconuenience as you speake of for such a purpose as well as they did in the same time to Synodes whiche were frequent both in Cyprians time and before Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 75. Sect. vlt. And least peraduenture you should haue this hole to hide your selfe in saying that it might be procured that in euery Church or parish throughout eyther the Prouince or Diocesie the consent of the people mighte be asked and they tarie in their places where they dwel Cyprian in the next Epistle doth put the matter out of all question saying that the priest whome he after calleth Bishop is chosen in the presence of the people in the eyes of all So that Cyprians Bishop whom you wil needes haue an Archbishop had neyther prouince nor dioces as we cal a dioces out only a Church orcongregatiō such as the ministers pastors with vs which are appoynted vnto seueral townes whiche may further appeare in that Cyprian sayth that oute of (*) Vntruthe for Cyprian nameth not a Prouince one prouince there were 90. Bishops
foresayde Aërius he proueth his errour aud the errour of those that heare him by this that the Apostle writte to Priests and Deacons and dyd not write to Byshops And to the Bishop he sayth neglect not the gifte that is in thee whiche thou hast receyued by the handes of the Presbyterie And agayne in another place he writeth to Bishops and Deacons wherefore sayth he a Bishop and a Priest is all one and he knoweth not whiche is ignorante of the sequele of the truthe and hathe not read profounde stories that when the preaching was but newely begonne the holy Apostle writte according to the state of things as they were then for where there were Bishops appoynted he writte to Bishops and Deacons for the Apostle coulde not by and by at the first appoynte all things for there was neede of Priests and Deacons bicause by those two ecclesiasticall matters maye be complete And where there was not any founde worthy a Bishopricke there the place remayned without a Bishop but where there was neede and worthy men to be Bishops there were Bishops appoynted And when there was not so many that there coulde be founde amongst them meete to be Priests they were content with one Bishop in an appoynted place but it is vnpossible for a Bishop to be without a Deacon and the holy Apostle had a care that Deacons shoulde be where the Bishop was for the ministerie So dyd the Churche receyue the fulnesse of dispensation suche was then the state and condition of the places For euery thing had not the perfection from the beginning but in processe of time those things whiche were necessarie to perfection were added c. The Apostle teacheth who is a Bishop and who is a Priest when he sayth to Timothie that was a Bishop chide not a Priest but exhorte him as a father what should a Bishop haue to doe not to chide a Priest if he had not authoritie aboue a Priest As he also sayth agayne agaynst a Priest admitte no accusation sodenly without two or three witnesses and he sayde not to any Priest admit no accusation agaynst a Bishop neyther did he write to any Priest that he shoulde not rebuke a Bishop Thus mayest thou sée good Reader that it is not for nought that T. C. so stormes agaynst Epiphanius and so vnreuerently vseth him But I wyll giue him as muche cause to deale in like maner with Augustine who August ad Quod-vult in this matter fully ioyneth with Epiphanius and in that booke of his de haeresibus ad quod-vult-deum quoted by T. C. in his margent attributeth this also as heresie to the sayde Acrius adding that the cause of this and other of his heresies was bicause he himselfe was not made Bishop Chap. 3. the. 59. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 4. That this worde presbyter in this place of the Apostle signifieth a minister of the worde bothe Ambrose Caluine and other learned writers declare T. C. Page 87. Sect. 4. And whereas M. Doctor citeth Ambrose Caluine and other godly wryters to proue that the minister is vnderstanded by the worde Elder or Presbyter he keepeth his olde wonte by bringing stickes into the wood and prouing alwayes that which no man denieth and yet with the minister of the worde he also vnderstandeth the Elder of the Churche whiche ruleth and dothe not labour in the worde But therein is not the matter for I doe graunt that by Presbyter the minister of the word is vnderstanded yet nothing proued of that which M. Doctor would so fayne proue Io. Whitgifte I adde this interpretation that the Reader may vnderstande Timothie to haue authoritie ouer Bishops and Ministers of the worde least you by cauilling shoulde shifte off this place with your signification of Seniors whiche were not ministers of the worde as you say All this whyle haue I looked for the performance of your promise to proue that That Timothie was Bishop Timothie and Titus were no Bishops But bicause I perceyue that you are content to forget it I will héere perfourme mine least I fall into the same faulte with you repeating only that which I haue before added to my answere in the 2. edition least I shoulde put the Reader bothe to coste and paynes in searching for it there First therefore that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus the whole course of the 1 The course of the Epistle two Epistles written vnto him declareth wherein is conteyned the office and duety of a Bishop and diuers precepts peculiarly perteyning to that function as it is manyfest neyther were those Epistles written to Timothie for the instruction of other onely but for the instruction of him selfe also as the whole course of bothe the Epistles doe declare and all learned expositours confesse Secondly the subscription of the seconde Epistle is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 The subscrip tion The seconde Epistle was written from Rome to Timothie who was ordeyned the first Bishop of the Churche of Ephesus when Paule appeared before the Emperour Nero the seconde time Whiche althoughe it be lefte out in some Gréeke Testamentes yet is it in the moste the best and the auncientest yea almoste in all neyther is this a sufficient answere to saye that the subscription of some one or two Epistles séeme to be vntrue therefore this is vntrue For the subscription as it is no doubt of great antiquitie so is it consonant to al olde auncient authoritie Thirdly the vniuersal consent of histories conclude him to be Bishop at Ephesus 3 Consent of hystories Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 4. saythe that Timothie was the first Bishop of Ephesus Dorotheus who lyued in Dioclesians time wryteth that Paule made him Bishop of Ephesus Nicephorus lib. 2. cap. 34. sayth that Paule made him Bishop of Ephesus before he writ his first Epistle vnto him Hierome in catalog scripto Ecclesi sayth that he was made Bishop of Ephesus by Paule Isidorus de Patribus noui Testamenti sayth also that he was Bishop of Ephesus Antoninus parte 1. titulo 6. cap. 1. affyrmeth the same oute of Polycrates So dothe Supplementum chroni So dothe also Volaterane lib. 20. where he calleth him Praesulem Ephesinum And all the Histories that I haue read whiche make any mention of him Historia Magdel centu 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. in vita Ioan. Euang. hathe these words Constat Paulum Ephesinae ecclesiae Timotheum dedisse pastorem It is certayne that Paule appoynted Timothie Pastor of the Churche of Ephesus Surely it is the generall consente of all hystories that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Fourthly the fathers affirme the same 4 Content of fathers Dionisius Areopagita so called of some men who liued in the Apostles time wryteth his booke De diuinis nominibus to Timothie Bishop of Ephesus Epiphanius lib. 3. tom 1. affirmeth that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Ambrose sayth the same in his Preface to the first Epistle written to Timothie Chrysostome in
his argument of the same Epistle giueth this reason why Paule of all his Disciples writte onely to Timothie and Titus bicause he had committed to them the gouernment and care of the Church and the other he carried about with him The same Chrysostome vpon the fourth to the Ephe. speaking of Pastors and Doctors vseth Timothie and Titus for an example Occumenius like wise vpon the fourth to the Ephe. calleth Timothie and Titus Bishops And vpon 1. Timoth. 1. he sayth that Paule ordeyned Timothie Bishop of Ephesus And in the fifth Chapter vpon these words Manus citò nemini imponas he sayth Mandat de ordinationibus Episcopo enim scribebat he giueth preceptes of ordeyning for he wrote to a Bishop Theodoret vpon the first to Timothie affirmeth in playne words that Timothie had cure of soules committed vnto him But to be shorte there is not one olde writer whiche speaking of this matter doth not testifie that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Last of all I proue him to be Bishop there by the consent of the late wryters 5 Consente of late writers Erasmus in his annotations sayth that Paul made him Bishop so sayth he likewise in his Paraphr 1. Timoth. 4. Pellicane sayth the same 1. Tim. 1. Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesiastes sayth directly that Timothie was a Bishop ▪ Bucer sayth the same writing vpon the. 4. chapter of the Epistle to the Ephe. Caluine vpon 1. Tim. 1. calleth him Pastor of the Churche of Ephesus And in the 1. Timoth. 4. expounding these words Ne donum quod in te est c. he sayth Spiritus sanctus oraculo Timotheum destinauerat vt in ordinem pastorum cooptaretur The holy Ghost by oracle did appoynt Timothie that he should be chosen into the order of Pastors And in the. 2. Timoth. 4. sayth that he did excell Vulgares pastores common Pastors meaning that he was an excellent Pastor indued with more singular and notable giftes and of greater authoritie than the common sorte of Pastors be And in the same chapter speaking of Paules sending for Timothie from Ephesus to Rome he saythe That there was no small cause why Paule sent for Timothie from that Churche which he ruled and gouerned and that so farre off Heereby we may gather sayth he howe profitable conference is with suche men for it might be profitable to all Churches whiche Timothie might learne in a small time so that the absence of halfe a yere or a whole yere is nothing in comparison of the commoditie that commeth thereby And agayne in the same place he sayth That Paule sent Tichicus to Ephesus when he sent for Timothie to Rome in the meane tyme to supply Tymothies absence By all these places it is manyfest that Caluine taketh Timothie to be Pastor Bishop of Ephesus as I haue beforesayde Bullinger vpon these words also ne neglexeris quod in te est donum c noteth three things to be obserued in the ordering of a Bishop and proueth therby that Timothie was lawfully called to his Bishopricke And vpon these words 2. Tim. 1. Quamobrem cōmonefacio te vt suscites donum c. he sayth that per donū Dei Paule vnderstandeth the gifte of Prophecying functionem Episcopalem the offyce of a Bishop to the whiche the Lord called Timothie but by the ministerie of Paule What can be spokē more playner Illyricus in his epistle dedicatorie to the newe Testament sayth that Paule praysed Timothie his Bishop and in his Preface to the epistle written to Timothie he calleth Timothie and Titus praestantes doctores multarumque ecclesiarum Episcopos Notable Doctors and Bishops of many Churches Of the same iudgement is Musculus and all the rest of the late wryters that I haue read one onely excepted who notwithstanding in effecte confesseth also that he was Bishop at Ephesus for in his annotations 1. Tim. 4. vpon these words vsquedum venero c. he saythe that when Paule sente for the ministers of Ephesus to Miletum Acts. 20. he sent for Timothie especially Cuius ministros meaning of Ephesus ac proinde Timotheum inprimis Miletum accersiuit But it is manyfest Act. 20. that they were all Pastours and Bishops therefore Timothie was a Bishop The same author vpon these wordes 1. Timoth. 5. aduersus presbyterum c. sayth Timotheum in Ephesino presbyterio tum fuisse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Antistitē vt vocat Iustinus And addeth that it is manifest by Cyprian that the Bishop dyd rule in the Colledge of Seniors Then if he that was chiefe in the Colledge of Seniors was a Bishop and Timothie was chiefe in the College of Seniors it must néedes followe that Timothie was a Bishop But it maye appeare howe little learning and learned men be estéemed of those whiche to maynteyne contention are not ashamed to denie that whiche all learned men agrée vpon The chiefe reasons to the contrarie answered Their reasons as in number they be not many so in substance they be nothing I will recite the chiefe and leaue the rest to children to be discussed The first is taken out of the. 2. Ti. 4. where Paule sayth to Timothie Opus perage 1 The place 2. Tim. 4. answered The work of an Euāgelist Euangelistae do the worke of an Euangelist Their reason is this Paule biddeth Timothie do the worke of an Euangelist Ergo Timothie was not Bishop First therfore we must searche out what Opus Euangelistae is and then trie whether it be incident to the office of a Bishop or no. Bullinger vpon that place sayth that he doth the worke of an Euangelist which preacheth the Gospell purely and is not by any persecutions or aduersitie driuen from his calling Hemingius sayth that opus Euangelistae generally taken is to preache the Gospell Musculus in locis commun ticulo de verbi ministris sayth that he is Euangelista eyther that preacheth or that writeth the Gospel and that Paul in the first sense speaketh to Timothie saying opus fac euangelistae And in the same place among other things that Paule requireth of a Bishop he affirmeth this to be one vt opus peragat Euangelistae So sayth Illyricus likewise Zuinglius also is of the same iudgement in his booke called Ecclesiastes and proueth by that text of Paule that the worke of an Euangelist and of a Bishop is all one Nowe howe this reason dothe followe Paule did bid Timothie preache the Gospell purely and constantly Ergo Timothie was not a Bishop let euery man iudge The seconde reason is taken out of the. 4. to the Ephe. Et ipse dedit alios quidem Apostolos 2 The place Ephe. 4. answered alios verò Prophetas alios autem Euangelistas alios autem pastores ac doctores He therfore gaue some to be Apostles and some Prophetes and some Euangelistes and some Pastors and Teachers The reason is framed on this sorte An Euangelist and a Bishop were distincte offices and coulde not be bothe ioyned in one But
of this Churche of Englande Master Foxe In the ecclesiasticall estate vve take not avvay the distinction of ordinarie degrees suche as by the Scripture be appoynted or by the Primitiue Churche allovved as Patriarkes or Archebishops Bishops ministers and deacons for of these foure vve especially reade as chief in vvhich foure degrees as vvegraunt diuersitie of office so vve admit in the same also diuersitie of dignitie neyther denying that vvhich is due to eache degree neyther yet maynteyning the ambition of any singular person For as vve giue to the minister place aboue the Deacon to the Bishop aboue the minister to the Archbishop aboue the Bishop so vve see no cause of inequalitie vvhy one minister should be aboue another minister one Bishop in his degree aboue another Bishop to deale in his dioces or an Archbishop aboue an other Archbishop and this is to keepe an order duely and truely in the Church according to the true nature and definitiō of order by the authoritie of Augustine lib. de Ciui Ordo est parium dispariumque rerum sua cuique loca tribuens dispositio Hitherto M. Foxe Nowe let the indifferent Reader iudge whether these offices be straunge and vnheard of in the Church of Christ or no. T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. vlt. M. Doctor closeth vp this matter with M. Foxe but eyther for feare that the place shoulde be founde that there might be answere or for feare that M. Foxe shoulde giue me the solution which hath giuen you the obiecion he would neyther quote the place of the booke nor the booke it selfe he hauing written diuers You can not speake so muche good of M. Foxe whiche I wyll not wyllingly subscribe vnto and if it be any declaration of good wyll and of honor that one beareth to another to reade that which he writeth I thinke (*) I maruel 〈◊〉 place 〈◊〉 cape so 〈◊〉 a r ader I haue read more of him than you For I haue read ouer his booke of Martyrs and so I think dyd neuer you for if you had read so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue beene hasty to snatche at this place he woulde haue taughte Pag. 78. of the booke of Actes you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetche your authorities and woulde haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of Metropolitanes Bishops and other degrees whiche you say sometimes had their beginnings in the Apostles tymes sometimes you can not tell when were not in Higinus tyme whyche was 180. yeares after Christe I (a) A suspicious head perceyue you feare M. Foxe is an enimie vnto your Archbishop and primate and therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupte him with his prayse and to seeke to drawe him if it were possible vnt the Archbishop and if not yet at the least that he would be no enimie if he woulde not nor coulde not be his friend You make me suspect that your prayse is not harty but pretended bicause you doe so often and so bitterly speake agaynst all those that wyll not receyue the cappe and surplesse and other ceremonies whereof M. Foxe declareth his great misliking For answere vnto the place bicause I remember it not nor meane not to reade ouer the whole booke to seeke it I say first as I sayde before that there may be somethyng before or after whych may giue the solution to this plac especially seeing M. Foxe in another place page 96. prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfeyt he vseth this reason because the fyft canon of the sayd Epistles solemnly entreateth of the difference betweene Primates Metropolitanes and Archbishops which distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauour more of ambition than persecution Moreouer I saye that M. Foxe wryting a storie dothe take greater payne and looketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what tyme and by whome than howe iustly or bniustly howe conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sinceritie of the Gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whyche hathe traueled so muche and so profitably to that ende will not haue hys authoritie or name therein to bryng any preiudice Nowe wyll I also ioyne wyth you and leaue it to the iudgemente of the indifferent Reader howe well out of the Scriptures Councels wryters olde and newe you haue proued eyther the lawfulnesse at all of the names of Archbishops Patriarkes Archdeacons Primates or of the lawfulnesse of the office of them and of Bishops which be in our times Io. Whitgifte If you had so diligently read M. Foxe his booke of Martyrs as you boast and brag that you haue done then could not this place haue béene so straunge vnto you for it is in the 20. page of his first tome where he hath an whole treatise touching the supremacie of the Bishop of Rome and speaketh of this matter at large The words be his own and expresse his owne iudgement of these degrées offices in this Church of Englande It had béene some token of modestie so to haue commended your selfe and your owne reading that you had not depraued any other mans But to cōmend your selfe and to detract from an other is eyther arrogant foolishnesse or foolishs arrogancie I can bring foorth good testimonies of my reading of these bookes thoughe I make no vragge thereof or vayne comparisons I haue alleaged none of these Epistles other wyse than M. Foxe him selfe hathe alleaged them M. Foxe hathe shewed him selfe in the place by me cited out of his booke to be no 〈◊〉 eyther to Archbishop Priuate or Bishop for I am sure he speaketh as he thinketh He is not a man like to be corrupted with prayse and therefore in so saying you doe vs bothe great iniurie You may not iudge my heart I thinke of M. Foxe as of one that I loue and reuerence I will not vtter all that I could least I should séeme to flatter There is nothing that goeth eyther before that place or followeth after it that can procure any other sense to his wordes than that in the which I haue set them down I doe not alleage M. Foxe for the originall of these names and offices but for the allowance of them These words that I haue recited are not spoken in the waye of any hystorie but of the order of gouernment of this Church which he alloweth and I dare saye for him that he hathe héereinspoken nothing whiche he thinketh maye hurte the 〈◊〉 of the Gospell And I am right well content to let the godly Reader iudge of bothe our proofes ¶ The defense of the answere of Master Iewell concerning Archbishops c. agaynst the vnreuerende Replie of T. C. Chap. 4. the first Diuision T. C. Pag ▪ 91. Sect. 1. And for as much as I haue purposed to answere in one place that which is scattered in diuers I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 halfe a sheete of 〈◊〉 ▪ which is annexed of
good neighbours or else for tootoo much selfe loue oftentymes forget this lesson as in this place Howsoeuer the Grecians vsed to call euery one of any meane countenance in the common The tytle of most honourable Lorde wealth where he lyued 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lorde yet did they not vse to call him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 most honourable Lorde for that tytle was onely giuen to such as were of great dignitie and authoritie as it is in the place of Theodorete by you quoted giuen to Bishops and therefore you haue made an obiection which you cannot answere This worde Lorde doth signifie preheminence and superioritie and hauing this title most honourable ioyned with it it cannot but signifie some greate state and degrée of authoritie The same I answere to that which followeth And yet Rabbi was a name gyuen primarijs hominibus honore aliquo praeditis to the chiefe men and those which were Rabbi indued with some honour and in that the Euangelistes do translate it Lorde it is manifest that this name Lorde signified then a degrée of superioritie but hauing as I sayde this tytle most honourable added vnto it as it is in that place of Theodorete it cannot but signifie some especiall preheminence and therefore equiualent with the titles now vsed Master Caluine vpon the. 20. of Iohn verse 16 sayth that Rabboni Caluine which is there interpreted master is nomen non modò onorificum not onely an honouble name but also quod professionem continet obedientiae such as conteyneth a profession of obedience But doe the tytles of honour and degrée giuen vnto Bishops so much trouble your hawtie stomacke Surely you are not then of that spirit that the olde auncient Uerie honourable titles giuē to bishops fathers were who disdeyned not to call Bishoppes by as honourable tytles as wée doe looke in Atha his 2. Apol you shall there find the Synode gathered at Ierusalem writing to the Priestes of Alexand call Athanasius sundrie tymes Dominum not as by Atban Apol a common tytle but a tytle of dignitie quum vobis restituet pastorem vestrum dominum comministrum nostrum At h nasium VVhen he shall restore vnto you your Pastor and Lorde our fellow minister Athanasius In the same Apol. Bishops are called domini preciosissimi most excellent or worthie Lordes And it is euident in the same booke that there was no other tytle gyuen to the Emperoure himselfe for there hée is onely called Lorde and so were other of his Nobles in like maner So that in those dayes it was not grudged at to giue vnto Bishoppes the same ty les of honour that was giuen to the Emperour other Nobles The name of most reuerend is as much as the name of most honourable and yet was that name also giuen vnto Bishops in Athanasius tyme as appeareth in the same booke in sundrie places For Athanasius him selfe is called by his Priestes and Deacons reuerendissimus Episcopus Eusebius Nicomed wryting to Paulinus Bishop of Tyrus vseth this style Domino meo Paulino c. To my Lorde Paulinus to 1. con But what shoulde I labour to proue the antiquitie of such tytles which cannot be vnknowne to such as be learned I had more neede to declayme agaynst the pryde and hautinesse of such as do disdaine to vse them but I will not spende paper in wordes Chap. 5. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 5. 6. And as touching Ambrose house albeit the worde doth not employ so great gorgeou nesse nor maginfycence of a house as the Palaces and o her magnificall buildings of our Bishops yet the cause where vpon this rose doth more excuse Ambrose who being taken from great wealth and gouernment in the common wealth giuing ouer his office did reteyne (*) It was the house belonging to the Bishop his house and that which he had gotten But our Bishops A heape of slaunders do mainteyne this pompe and excesse of the charges of the Church with whose goodes a great number of ydle loytering seruing men are mainteyned which ought to be bestowed vpon the Ministers which want necessarie finding for theyr familyes and vpon the poore and maintenance of the Uniuersityes As for these ryotous expences of the Church goodes when many other Ministers want and of making great dinners and interteyning great Lordes and magistrates and of the answere to them that say they do helpe the Church by this meanes I will referre the reader to that which Ierome wryteth in an Epistle ad Nepotianum monachum where this is handled more at large Io. Whitgifte Your answere for Ambrose his house hath no probabilitie in it for the wordes Ambrose house within the bounds of the Church of Theodorete in that place do plainly declare that it was neare vnto the Churche yea infra sept Ecclesiae within the bondes or close of the Church and therefore most like to be the house perteyning to the Bishoprike and not any part of Ambrose his former 〈◊〉 For if you remember you sayde a little before that it was decréed in the. 4. Councell of Carthage Can. 14. that a Bishop shoulde haue his house neare vnto the Church But wise men can consider from whence such vnlikely assertions without any shew of proofe do come Bishops buylde not these great houses of the Churches goodes but receyue them Bishops defended against the slaunderous replie as left vnto them by such as were farre from séeking a spoyle they vso them according to the lawes of the lande and their number of men can in no respect be discommended tending to the defense and strength of the realme the honour of the Prince and their owne honest and góod education Our Bishops therefore vse the goodes of the Church according to the first institution and foundation and I doubt not but they vse them to more profite both of the Church and common wealth than they should be vsed if your phansies might take place Your complaint for ministers for the poore c. may be otherwise satisfyed than by Prouision 〈◊〉 ministers a spoyle For if benefices were rightly vsed the Ministers of thys Kealme are better prouided for than in any rountrey or age yea there are mo sufficient lyuings for them besydes the Bishoprikes than can be supplyed with able ministers The poore also are well prouided for God be thanked by sundrie meanes if lawes ròuision for the poore made for the same were duely executed and Hospitalles with suche other prouisions delyuered from vnreasonable Leases and bestowed vppon the poore according to their fyrst ordinaunces Wherefore this clamour of yours is nothing but the Where vnto the Repliers clamour tendeth The same axe is lifted against Uniuersities that hacketh at byshops landes voyce of an enuious spirite proclayming the spoyle of the Churche to the decay of learning and bringing in of barbarisme if it be not in time preuented The Uniuersityes are much beholding to you
now to be alleaged but howe discretely by examination it will appeare The words of the Apostle to the Galat. 2. verse 6. be these And of them vvhich seemed to be great I vvas not taughte vvhat they vvere in tyme passed it maketh no matter to me God accepteth no mans person neuerthelesse they that are the chiefe dyd communicate nothing vvith me The Apostle in these wordes doth declare that he receyued not the Gospell which he preached of men no not of the Apostles but of Iesus Christ and that the Gospell preached by him oughte to be no lesse credited than the Gospell preached by them So that in those wordes he declareth that the truthe of the doctrine dothe not depende of any mans person He speaketh nothyng agaynst superioritie quoad ordinem concâ—rning order but dothe rather acknowledge it for he sayth they that are the chiefe c. But it is true that Master Caluine noteth on thys place Hic non est certamen ambitionis quia nequaquam de personis agitur The contention is not for ambition for it is not vnderstanded of the persons Nowe I praye you consider this argument Paule receyued the Gospell that he preached not of the Apostles but of Christ or the Gospell preached by Paule is equiualent with the Gospell preached by other of the Apostles therefore the names of Archbyshops Archdeacons c. are drawne out of the Popes shop together wyth their offices or this Paule sayth that they that were the chiefe did coÌ„municate nothing with him Ergo the names and offices of Archbyshops be taken out of the Popes shop T. C. Pag 100. Sect. 4. And in the. 207. page vnto the middest of the. 214. page this matter is agayne handled where firste M. Doctor woulde drawe the place of Galatians the seconde (*) This is an vntruth for it is only proued that the place is not against the Archbishop c to proue an Archbyshop and that by a (a) Here you rashely accuse the translation of the Bible printed at Geneua and others false translation for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is they that seemed or appeared he hath translated they that are the chiefe and although the place of the Galatians maye be thought of some not so pregnant nor so full against the Archbyshop yet all must needes confesse that it maketh more agaynst hym than for him For Saynt Paules purpose is to proue there that he was not inferior to any of the Apostles and bringeth one argument thereof that he had not his Gospell from them but from Christe immediately and therefore if the Apostles that were esteemed moste of and supposed by the Galatians and others to be the chiefe had no superioritie ouer S. Paule but were equall wyth him it followeth that there was none that had rule ouer the reste And if there needed no one of the Apostles to be ruler ouer the reste there seemeth to be no neede that one Byshop shoulde rule ouer the rest Io. Whitgifte I haue set downe the words of the Apostle as they be translated in the English Bible printed at Geneua not altering one title and therefore if there be any falsehood in the translation it is in that Bible not in me How truely you haue translated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated Beza saying it signifieth they that seemed or appeared let the Reader iudge after he hath considered these wordes of M. Beza vpon the same worde ad Galat. 2. verse 2. with those that are of reputation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those which are well estemed of the contrarie whereof are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they which are without renowne or estimatioÌ„ the coÌ„mon translatioÌ„ hath which semed to be some thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is coÌ„trarie to al our bokes vnto Ieromes interpretatioÌ„ also For thus he writeth which thing Erasmus also dothe well note I did very carefully search saith he what that should be that he said qui videbaÌ„tur they which semed but he hath takeÌ„ away al doubt in that he addeth Qui videbaÌ„tur esse colunmae they which were accouÌ„ted to be pillers Hetherto Hierom wherby he doth euidently declare that he had not read in this place 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But in such sort notwithstanding that he seemeth not to haue knowne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to haue bene called of the Grecians absolutely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is those who are of great estimation with all men And this ignorance of the Greke tong as I thinke was the cause that the olde interpreter being more bolder than Hierom did adde aliquid esse And Erasmus in his annotations Erasmus vpon the same place agréeth with M. Beza herein 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 absolut dicuntur Graecis qui magnae sunt aut oritatis they which are of great authoritie are of the Grecians absolutely called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Budeus also saith that the Apostle in this place taketh thys woorde Bude s. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And both M. Beza himselfe and Erasmus translate it as it is in the Geneua Bible Wherefore here your cunning faileth you and you had not well considered the matter before you entred this accusation of falsifying The true sense and meaning of this place to the Galat. I haue set downe in my Answere and it is according to the interpretation of the best writers iustified by the words of M. Caluine there alleaged and not confuted by you Wherfore the conclusion remaineth as it did That there was superioritie among the Apostles ordinis politiae causa I haue shewed before This place to the Galatians is not brought in by me to proue the authoritie of the Archbyshop although it might well be alleaged to proue degrées of honour in the ministerie but it is quoted in the Admonition fondly and foolishely to proue that the names of Archbishops Archdeacons Lordbishops c. are drawne out of the Popes shoppe together with their offices And of this dalying with the Scriptures you speake not one worde for you care not howe they be profaned so it be for the maintenance of your owne cause Chap. 6. the. 11. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 208. Sect. vlt. The wordes in the. 5. to the Hebrues verse 4. be these And no man taketh this honor to himself but he that is called of God as AaroÌ„ vvas The Apostle here sheweth that Christe was a lawfull Priest bycause he was therevnto called by God as Aaron was What is this to Archbishops c This place teacheth that no man ought to intrude hymselfe Weake argument s. to any function except he be there vnto called by God But what maketh this against any lawfull function or authoritie or what conclusion call you this Christ did not take vnto him that office whervnto he was not called or no man muste take vpon him that whervnto he is not called
learnedly and truly written agaynst the common aduersaries of this Booke among whome there is one that wrote a Booke Entituled A sparing restraynt of many lauishe vntruthes which M. Doctor Harding doth chalenge in the first Article of my Lorde of Sarisburies Replye The A sparing re trayne Author of that booke writeth thus O M. Harding turne agayne your writinges examino your authorities consider your Councels applie your examples looke if any line be blameable in our seruice and take holde of your aduantage I thinke M. Iewell will accept it for an Article And a little after Our seruice is good and godly euery title grounded on holy Scriptures and with what face do you call it darkenesse This was his opinion then of our seruice And it both was then and is now my full perswasion and I will God willing performe that against you which he offred in M. Jewell his name agaynst Harding Your othnesse to enter into this fielde is but dissembled your continuall barking The Repliet his wordes contrary to his deedes agaynst the state and forme of this Church of England doth conuince you of the contrarie Neyther haue you any respect or regarde for giuing occasion o euill speach to the Papistes much lesse of prouoking your adherentes to vnduetifull speaches as you pretend your booke tending wholly to the contrary Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 3. Notwithstanding my dutie of defending the truth loue which I haue first towardes God and then towards my countrie constrayneth me being thus prouoked to speake a few wordes more particularly of the forme of prayer that when the blemishes thereof do appeare it may please the Queenes inaiestie hir honorable councell with those of the Parliament whom the Lorde hath vs o as singular instrumentes to d liuer this realme from the hote fornace and yron yoke of the popish Egipte to procure also that the corruptions which we haue brought from them as those with which we being so deepely died and stayned haue not so easily shaken of may be remoued from amongst vs to the ende that we beyng necrclicr both ioyned vnto the sinceritie of the gospell and the ollicie of other reformed Churches may thereby be ioyned nearer with the Lord and may be se te so farre from Rome that both we may comfort our selues in the hope that we shall neuer returne thither againe and our aduersaries which desire it and by this to much agreement with them and to little with the reformed Churches hope for it may not onely be deceyued of their expectation but also being out of all hope of that which they desire may the soner yeelde themselues vnto the truth wherevnto they are now disobedient Io. Whitgifte What dutie can there be in defacing a knowne and receaued truth what loue in flaundering your countrie vniustly and renting it in pieces with sectes and Schismes and prouoking the subiectes to haue mislikyng of their Magistrates and such as be placed in authoritie ouer them these be but clokes to couer an euill and vngodly purpose If you shall be able to shewe any suche blemishes in the booke of Common prayers they shall not be couered for me but if not than are you not a man to be credited I haue tolde you M. Caluines and M. Gualters opinion touching the ambitious Sup̄ra Cap. t e 13. Diuisi morositie of such as would haue all Churches framed after the example of some one and nowe I tell you agayne that there is no cause why this Churche of Englande eyther for truth of doctrine sinceritie of publike diuine seruice and other pollicie should giue place to any church in Christendome and sure I am that we are as 〈◊〉 ioyned with the Lorde our God as the members are to the bodie and the bodie to the head Our aduersaries haue o such hope vpon any suche occasion as you pretende if The aduersaries hope is in contention their hope be any it is especially in your contentions Wherein do we agrée with the Papistes or wherein do we dissent from the reformed Churches with these we haue all poynts of doctrine and substance common from the other we dissent in the most parte both of doctrine and ceremonies From what spirite come these bolde and vntrue speaches Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 4. And as for the Papistes triumphe in this case I shall not greatly neede to feare it ▪ ring that their discordes and contentions are greater a d that our stryfe is 〈◊〉 we 〈◊〉 b arther from them For the other that professe the Gospell I will desire in the name of God that they abuse not my labour to other ende than I bestowe it and that they eepe hemselues in theyr callinges committe the matter by prayer vnto the Lorde leauing to the ministers of the worde of God and to the magistrates that which apperteyneth vnto them Io. Whitgifte It is true of the Papistes but they deale in their controuersies more circumspectly and warely though they dissent in matters of farre greater importaunce and in the chiefe poyntes of their owne Religion To the professours of the Gospell you giue better Councell than you haue taken your selfe and you shewe an example contrary to your wordes and therefore how shall they beléeue you But now to the matter for hitherto you haue vttered nothing but woordes Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C Pag. 106. Sect. vlt. To come therfore to touche this matter I answere that there is fault in the matter and fault in the forme In the matter for that there are things there that ought not to be and things there are wanting in the order that should be Of the firste sorte is that we may euermore be defended The collect of Trinitie Sunday from all aduersitie Io. Whitgifte The first fault that you finde in the matter of prayer is a portion of the Collect of Trinitie Sunday wherein we pray That we may euermore be defended from al aduersitie And is this the matter you mislike let vs then consider your reason Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 1. Nowe for as much as there is no promise in the scripture that we should be free from all ad ersitie and that euermore it scemeth that this prayer might haue bene better conceyued being no prayer of faith or of the which we cā assure our selues that we shal obteyne it For if it be sayd that y the worde aduersitie is meante all euill we knowe that it hath no such signification neyther in this tongue of oures neyther in other tongues which vse the same worde in common with vs but that it signifieth trouble vexation and cala tie from all the which we may not desire alwayes to be deliuared And whatsoeuer can be alleaged for the defense of it yet euery one that is not contentio s may see that it needeth some caution or exception Io. Whitgifte I thinke no man will
occasion they may speake as I haue said in my Answer Chap. 3. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 2. Nowe if the speache be a true messenger of the hearte I perceyue master Doctor is of 〈◊〉 this mind that he would haue women preach in the Church of England at this time for he cannot denie and he also confesseth it sometimes that this is the time of necessitie and indeede it must be needes an extreme necessitie that driueth to make one man Pastor of two churches especially so farre distant that driueth to make men whiche are not able to teach ministers and diuers more things which are contrary to the word of God Therefore this being a time of necessitie by M. Doctors iudgement we ought to haue women to preach Besides this he sayth if neyther none other can or will preach that then women may preach but in the most churches of this realme there is none that eyther can or will preach therefore there and in those churches women at the leaste if they be able may preach the Gospell and consequently minister the sacraments Io. Whitgifte You wander from the matter and do but séeke occasion to quarel there is no such necessitie in this Church God be thanked as M. Doctor speaketh of for there is none in anye place or corner thereof that be ignorante of Christ or do not professe the name of Christ In all places they haue the scriptures red vnto them whiche conteine matter sufficient to saluation and therefore there is no cause why women should take vpon them to preach in the congregation neyther doth M. Doctor meane any such thing as you know very well but that it is your pleasure to dallie He meaneth In what time a womā may preach Christ. such places where all be infidells where they haue neither heard of Christ nor haue his word neither yet any other meanes to come by the knowledge of the same which is no where in this Church Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision Admonition Women that may (h) 1. Co. 14. 34 1. Tim. 2. 11 not speake in a congregation may yet in time of necessitie minister the Sacrament of Baptisme and that in a priuate house Ansvver to the Admonition Pag 186. Sect. vlt. You say women that may not speake in a congregation may yet in time of necessitie minister the sacrament of baptisme and that in a priuate house And to proue that women may not speake in a congregation you quote 1. Cor. 14. 1. Ti. 2. whereas you should rather haue proued that women may not in time of necessitie minister baptisme for that is the question and not the other Women may speake in the congregation if necessary occasion do require as M. Caluin teacheth in his institutions Chap. 13. Sect. 32. T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 3. In the. 187. Page he citeth M. Caluine in the. 13. Chap. Section 32. to proue that women may teach wherein (*) An argument of your ignorance I maruell what he meaneth so to alleadge M. Caluine continually he alleadgeth the. 13. Chap. and no booke as though he had written but one booke and indeede there is no such thing in no such chapter of any booke of his institutions or many other place throughout his whole works as I am perswaded If this fault had bin but twise or thrise I woulde haue thought it had bin the Printers but now that it is continuall and so oftentimes surely he gyueth great suspicion that eyther some body hath mocked him with these places or else he would abuse others and especially him that should answere his booke setting him to seeke that he shoulde neuer finde Io. Whitgifte You pleade ignorance of such an edition of M. Caluines institutions but it is bycause you cannot answer the place for other places which I haue in like manner alleaged for the which you might haue any colour of answering you haue found out at the first yea and this selfe same place now in question but when there is no shifte to auoyd that which is alledged then you quarell with the booke and suspect that eyther Pag. 19. Sect. some body hath mocked him or that he would abuse others c. No no T. C. I thanke god I vse no such dealing I do alledge nothing which I haue not red in the Authors themselues I study not to encounter the Answer for eyther I set downe the whole place or else quote it so that it may easily be found Touching this booke of institutions of M. Caluines which I now follow I haue spoken before and declared why I do vse it rather than any other I haue laboured it noted it I am acquainted with it and belike I red it before you knew whether there was any such booke or no and if there be no suche booke of M. Caluines institutions only deuided into chapters and sections and not into bookes I will giue you all M. Caluines works bycause you so complayne of lacke of bookes But to come to the thing it selfe M. Caluine in that place speaking of such lawes and orders in the Church as are not perpetuall but alterable as occasion serueth vseth this commaundement of S. Paules touching the silence of women in the Churche for one example to make the matter more manifest his wordes be these Or is the commaundement touching hir silence such as it may not be broken without wickednesse Chap. 1 Sect. 32. And alittle after Et est vbi loqui nō minus opportunum illi sit quà m alibi tacere And there is a time and place when and where it is as fit for hir to speake as else where to holde ir peace These words be plaine and do sufficiently answer all that you can obiect to the contrary Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 4. As for M. Caluines iudgement what it is of womens preaching it may appeare by that he 4. Li. institut cap. 15. Sect. 20. will not by no meanes no not in time of necessitie as they tearme it suffer eyther woman or any lay man to baptise or minister any sacrament and therefore not to preach Io. Whitgifte I doubt not of M. Caluines iudgement in that poynt and yet I knowe other learned and notable men that thinke otherwise and namely Zuinglius in his booke de baptismo neyther do I go about to teach that women may preach I tell you onely what extreame necessitie maye extraordinarily permitte withoute iust cause of reprehension Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. vlt. And as for the examples of Mary the sister of Moyses of Olda of Anna and the daughters of Philip the Euangelist whiche are all called prophetesses tor I thinke M. Doctor meaneth these examples as for them I say it will be hard for to shew that they euer prophecied or taughte openly in any publike me ng or congregation But the surer answer is that although the Lorde do sometimes not being vnder any
then came it neyther from the Papistes nor yet from the Gentils But whensoeuer this began or from whom soeuer it was taken the baptizing of infantes hath alwayes bene thought necessarie in the Church by all such as haue not deuided themselues by any Schisme or Heresie from the same Chap. 5. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. 4. Now I returne to the example of Sephora and say that the vnlawfulnesse of that facte doth appeare sufficiently in that she did it (*) Mose by reson of sicknesse was not able to do it himselfe before hir husbande Moses which was a Prophete of the Lorde and (a) This is contrary to that he hath Pag. 17 Sect. 1. to whome that office of circumcision did appertayne so that vnlesse M. Doctor would haue midwiues baptise in the presence of the Bishop or the minister there is no cause why he shoulde alleage this place besides that she did cut of the fore skinne of the Infante not of minde to obey the commaundement of God or for the saluation of the chylde but in a choler onely to the ende that hir husbande might be eased and haue release which minde appeareth in hir both by hir woordes and by casting away in anger the foreskinne which she had cut of And if it be sayde that the euent declared that the acte pleased God bycause that Moses forthwith waxed better and was recouered of his sickenesse I haue shewed before how if we measure things by the euent we shall oftentymes iustifie the wicked and take the rightuousnesse of the rightuous from them Io. Whitgifte In the. 170. Page of your booke you say that God toke the Priesthode from Moses Pag. 170. Sect. 1. and gaue it to Aaron and nowe you séeme to affirme the contrarie in saying that Moses was a Prophete of the Lorde to whome that office of circumcision did apperteyne for hereby you do insinuate that Moses was a Prieste Moreouer Moses at this tyme was extréemely sicke and therefore could not execute that office himselfe And in the Geneua Bible there is this note that it was extraordinarie for Moses was sore sicke and God euen then required it Sephora therefore did circumcise in a poynt of extremitie Baptisme true though not ordinarily ministred and not wilfully or of purpose that circumcision was a true circumcision though it were not done ordinarily euen so Baptisme is true Baptisme though it be sometimes ministred by such as be not ordinarie ministers The euent doth oftentimes declare the thing Exitus acta probat though not necessarily but this is certayne that these euentes are better reasons to iustifie the fact than you can she we any out of that place to the contrarie Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. vlt. Pag. 114. Sect. 1. An other reason he hath which is that the dignitie of the sacramentes doth not depende vpon the man whether he be minister or no minister good or euill In deede vpon this poynt whether he be good or an euill minister it dependeth not but on this poynt whether he be a minister or no dependeth not onely the dignitie but also (a) A straunge as sertiō auouched without proofe the beyng of the Sacrament so that I take the baptisme of women to be nomore the holy Sacrament of baptisme than I take any other dayly or ordinarie washing of the childe neyther let any man thinke that I haue at vnwares slipped into this asseueration or that I haue forgotten that soone after the tymes of the Apostles it was the vse of certayne Churches that Deacons shoulde baptize in the tyme of necessitie as they call it for as for the Baptisme of Deacons I holde it to be lawfull for bycause although as it is with vs they giue him the name of Deacon (*) Vrge hoc c. yet in deede he is as he then was in the elder tymes a minister and not a Deacon And although he did then provide for the poore and so had two functions which was not meete yet his office ought to be esteemed of the principall parte of his function which was preachyng and ministring of the Sacramentes in certayne cases And as for the baptising by laye men considering that it is not onely agaynst the woorde of God but also founded vpon a false grounde and vpon an imagined necessitie which is none in deede it moueth me nothing at all although it be very auncient for so muche as the substance of the Sacrament dependeth chiefly of the institution and woorde of God whiche is the forme and as it were the lyfe of the sacrament of which institution this is one and of the chiefe partes that it should be celebrated by a minister Io. Whitgifte If this be true and sounde doctrine then is there many that go vnder the name The inconuenience of the Repliers doctrine of Christians whiche were neuer baptized for besides diuerse that haue bene baptized by women some there are and not a fewe that haue bene baptized by suche as haue taken vpon them the ministerie not beyng therevnto eyther ordinarily or extraordinarily called and it may so be that T. C. hath hereby proued himselfe to be no Christian. And surely if you peruse all the writinges of the auncient Fathers and of the The assertion hath no sufficiēt patrones late wryters in lyke manner I beléeue that you shall not finde the lyke proposition affirmed for although diuers bothe olde and newe do not allowe that Lay men shoulde be suffred to baptise yet is there none of them suche onely excepted as erre in rebaptisation that thinke the beyng of the sacrament so to depende vpon the minister that Baptisme by lay men Tertull. Ambrose Hierome Augustine Zuinglius it is no sacrament if it be not celebrated by a minister Tertull. in his booke De Baptismo sayth That laye men may Baptise Ambrose in the. 4. ad Ephes. sayeth that in the beginning it was lawfull for all menne to Baptise Ierome ad Luciferianos affirmeth that it is lawfull for Laye men to Baptise if necessitie do requyre And herevnto also dothe S. Augustine agrée in his 2. Booke agaynst the Epistle of Parmenian the. 13. Chapter M. Zuinglius in the place before by me alleaged VVriteth that the seconde errour in the circumstances of Baptisme is aboute the person bycause they thinke that Baptisme can not be gyuen of any but of a Prieste onely whereas if necessitie do requyre any man may do it And a little after he sayeth That this and such lyke circumstances are not De ipsa Baptismi essentia Not of the beyng of the Sacrament Whiche is directly contrary to your assertion M. Caluine also in his Institutions Cap. 17. Sect. 16. doth sufficiently Caluine confute this errour in these woordes Nowe if it be true that we haue set downe the Sacrament is not to be esteemed of his hande by whome it is ministred but as it were of the
and partes of the Churche Chap. 5. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 153. Sect. 2. M. Bucer in his censure vpon the Communion booke speaking of Bucer the order appointed in the same for priuate Baptisme writeth thus In this constitution all things are godly appoynted I vvoulde to God they Differring of baptisme not expedient vvere so obserued and especially this that the baptisme of infants be not differred for therby is a dore opened vnto the Deuill to bring in a contempt of baptisme and so of our whole redemption and cōmunion of Christ which thorough the sect of Anabaptistes hath to much preuayled vvith many T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 2. In the 153. page M. Bucers censure vpon the cōmunion booke is cited for the allowaunce of that it hath touching priuate baptisme and consequently of the baptisme by women It may be that as M. Bucer although otherwise very learned hath (*) This is but grosse courtesie other grosse absurdities so he may haue that But it had bene for the credite of your cause if you had shewed that out of those writings which are published knowne to be his not out of those wherof men may doubt whether euer he wrote any such or no And if he wrote whether they be corrupted by those into whose hands they came And if you would take any aduauntage of M. Bucers testimonie considering that a witnesse is a publike person you should haue brought him out of your studie into the stationers shop where he mought haue bene common to others as well as to you whereby his stile and manner of writing as it were by his gestures and countenaunces and by those things that go before and come after as it were by his head and by his fecte we might the better know whether it were the true Bucer or no. Io. Whitgifte It is very grosse courtesie that you shewe to so worthie and learned a man modestie The reuerēce which T. C. giueth to learned men and charitie would not haue bene so rashe as to answere that whiche he well speaketh in opprobriously obiecting vnto him his other errours which you call grosse absurdities But this is the reuerence that you giue to all learning and learned men that are contrary to your opinions I haue sometimes heard a Papiste burst out into this rage against M. Bucer beyng pressed with his authoritie But you are the first professour of the Gospell that euer I hearde so churlishly to vse so reuerent so learned so paynefull so sounde a father being also an earnest and zelous professour It causeth me the lesse to regarde what you speake of me when I heare such bitternesse agaynst all other be they neuer so zealous and excellent Well Bucers reasons which touch the quicke would haue bene reasonablie answered without spyte and you should rather haue considered them than the authour There is nothing in these woordes by him affirmed which is not in as playne termes auouched by Zuinglius in the woordes before recited The booke of M. Bucers is forth cōming to be shewed and he affirmeth nothing therein contrary to his bookes published he had more speciall occasion here offred to speake both of this and other matters now in controuersie and therefore the more he is to be credited Chap. 5. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 2. For although I wil not say but that this may be Bucers doing yet it seemeth very straunge that Bucer should not onely contrarie to the learned writers nowe but also contrary to all learned antiquitie and contrarie to the practise of the Churche whilest there was any tollerable estate allowe of womens baptizing (a) De virgin velan Tertullian sayeth it is not permitted to a woman to speake in the Churche nor to teache or to baptize nor to do any worke of a man much lesse of a minister (b) Lib. de Baptis And in an other place although he do permit it to be done by Laye men in the time of necessitie as it is termed yet he giueth not that licence to the woman (c) Epiph. li. 1. contra haeres Epiphanius vpbraydeth Marcion that he suffred women to baptise And (d) Lib. Vbi de Phry gib Priscil in an other booke he derideth them that they made women Bishops And (e) Lib. 3. in an other booke he sayeth it was not graunted vnto the holy mother of Christe to baptise hir Sonne Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer speaketh not one woorde in this place of baptising by women but of priuate Baptisme which neyther Tertullian nor Epiphanius in these places by you alleaged do disallow Chap. 5. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 115. Lin. 6. 1. Li. de merit remis peccat 24. cap. Contra E pist Parmen lib. 2. 13. cap. Augustine although he were of that minde that children could not be saued without baptisme An vntruth yet in the time of necessitie as it is called he doth not allow eyther of baptisme in priuate houses or by women but when there was daunger the women hasted to carie the children vnto the Church and although he do seeme to allowe of the baptisme of a Lay man in the time of necessitie yet there also he mentioneth not womens baptisme And further he doubteth whether the childe shoulde be baptised againe which was baptised by a laye man Io. Whitgifte Where doth S. Augustine disallow baptising by women or in priuate houses he vttereth no suche thing in any of the places quoted in the margente Will you still counterfeit is there no ende with you of falsifying In his seconde booke contra Epistolam Parmeniani Cap. 13. he dothe not onely say that a lay man may baptise in the tyme of necessitie but he also addeth that if it be ministred without necessitie yet notwithstanding that it is baptisme as appeareth in these words as I haue before sayde But althoughe it be vsurped he meaneth baptisme by lay men without necessitie Aug. lib. 2. contra Epist. Parm. cap. 13. and is giuen of any man to any man that whiche is giuen can not be sayde not to be giuen althoughe it maye be rightly sayde that it is not lawfully giuen And he dothe make the same manyfest by two prety similitudes following whiche I omitte for to auoyde tediousnesse The learned Reader maye in that place of Augustine soone perceyue what an errour this is to saye that the Minister is of the substance and beeing of the Sacrament neyther dothe he in eyther of the places eyther disallowe baptisme by women or in priuate houses as you affirme but ad Fortunatum he saythe thus In Aug. ad Fortunatum necessitie when the Bishops or Priests or any other minister can not be founde and the daunger of him that requireth dothe constrayne least he shoulde departe this lyfe without this sacrament we haue heard that euen lay men haue giuen the sacrament that they haue receyued Chap. 5. the. 11. Diuision T.
at the other I will not denie but he may be more edisyed at the simple reading than at the Sermon vnlesse it be in this and such like case I knowe not howe it may be true that M. Doctor sayth And indeede it is as much to say that it may be that the meanes that God hath ordeyned to be the fittest and meetest to call men to saluation is not the fittest and meetest meanes which a man shoulde not once so much as thinke of without trembling and shaking euery ioynt of him Io. Whitgifte As absurde as it is Musculus doth affirme it in his common places titu de Lectio sacrae script And as his saying I report it in mine answere beléeuing it to be moste true And therefore if your malice had not béene wholy bent agaynst me you should haue ascribed this absurditie to him or at least haue deuided it betwixt vs and so my backe should haue béene somwhat eased of the burden of absurdityas wherewith you would so gladly ouercharge me God worketh by reading the Scriptures as well as he doth by preaching and God vseth reading as a meanes aswell as preaching vseth that also as a meanes to call men to saluation Read Augustine lib. con 8. cap. 12. and you shall sée that God vsed reading as a meanes to conuert him And surely I maruell that you professing the Gospell can without trembling and shaking speake so basely of reading the worde of God being a thing so precious and so singular a meanes of our saluation but for the thing it selfe I referre it to the iudgement Reading somtune preuayleth more than preaching of those that haue not drunke so déepely of the cuppe of contention as you haue whither it may not sometymes so happen Or whither they whiche are quietly affected may not receyue more edifying by the simple reading of the Sciptures which they vnderstande than by the Sermons of diuerse contentious preachers whose hote and bitter inuectiues which sauour more of malice than of loue of contention than of peace the frute of the Gospell may bréede in the heartes of those that are studious of peace and quietly minded some suspition of the truth of their doctrine Or lastly whither some misdoubting the truth of the doctrine of the preachers of the Gospell and conceyuing a preindicate opinion agaynst them as diuerse Papistes doe may not be more edifyed by diligent reading of the Scriptures of whose authoritie they doe not doubt than by hearing of the Preacher whose wordes they doe eyther mistrust or not regarde by reason of theyr preiudicate opinion agaynst all Preachers and in the ende perceyuing by reading of the Scriptures the truth of their doctrine may bée thereby established which were not by the Sermons once mooued And for this cause Christ sayde Iohn 5. Searche the Iohn 5. Scriptures c. That Reading is Preaching Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. Lin. 13. And nowe I thinke by this tyme M. Doctor knoweth his answere to his seconde question which is whether reading be not preaching ▪ And if this be not sufficient that I haue sayde I woulde aske gladly of him (*) A mere cauil whether all Readers be Preachers and whether whosoeuer readeth preacheth for if it be true which he sayth that reading is preaching then that is lykewise true that all those which reade preache and so a childe of 4. or 5. yeares olde is able to preach bycause he is able to reade Io. Whitgifte I know an answere in déede such as it is but it is much more fit for a Papist or Atheist than for a professor of the Gospell If preaching be taken generally for euerie How reading is preaching kinde of instructing or teaching by the worde of God as it is ad Rom. 10. then is reading preaching But if it be taken in the vsuall signification for him that interpreteth the Scripture teacheth and exhorteth in the Congregation by discoursing vpon the scriptures and applying them as occasion serueth then it is not so and yet no lesse profitable to edifying to such as vnderstande that which is read than preaching To reade the Scriptures is not to preach or teache in respect of him that readeth but in the respect of Gods spirite whiche thereby worketh knowledge in the heart of the Reader or Hearer For we must thinke it to be true that Cyprian sayth VVhen we reade the Scripture God speaketh vnto vs and in this sense a childe that can read may preach that is God by his worde read of a childe may and doth oftentimes teach vs. And hereof we haue God be thanked many examples in Englande of those which béeing not able to reade themselues by the meanes of their children reading to them at home receyue instruction and edifying And if you had béene disposed to haue called to remembrance that which you say you haue so diligently read in M. Foxe you might haue knowne that diuerse in the beginning came to the light of the Gospell onely by reading and hearing the newe Testament in English read which I am sure you will confesse to haue bene to them a preaching and instruction Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Admonition By the worde of God it is an office of preaching they make it an office of reading Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 159. Sect. 1. But where doth the booke make the ministerie an office of reading onely Or what contrarietie is there betwixt reading and preaching Nay what difference is there betwixt them If a man A written sermon is preaching shoulde write his Sermon and reade it in the booke to his flocke doth he not preach Is there no Sermons but such as be sayde without booke I thinke to preache the Gospell is to teache and instruct the people in fayth and good maners be it by wryting reading or speaking without booke and I am sure the spirite of God doth worke as effectually by the one of these wayes as it doth by the other Did not Saint Paule preache to the Romaines when he writte to them Was not the reading of Deuteronomie to the people a preaching 2. Reg. 23. Will you so scornefully and so contemptuously speake of the reading of Scripture beeing a thing so frutefull and necessarie T. C. Pag. 127. Lin. 18. And least he shoulde seeme to be thus euill aduised without some reason in the. 159. Page he asketh whether if a man wryte his Sermon and after reade it in the booke that reading be preaching Here is hard shift what if I graunted that it is preaching yet I denie that therefore he that readeth an other mannes Sermon preacheth and further I say that if there be any such as beeing able to preache for his knowledge yet for fault eyther of vtterance or memorie can not doe it but by reading that whiche hee hath written It is not conuenient that hee shoulde bee a Minister in the Churche For Saint Paule doth not require onely that the 1. 〈◊〉 3. Bishoppe
or Minister shoulde be learned in the mysteries of the Gospell and such a one as is able to set downe in wryting in his studie the sense of the Scripture but one whiche is apt and fitte to teache And the Prophete Malachie sheweth that he must haue the lawe not in his papers Mal. 2. but in his lippes noting thereby that it is necessarie to haue the gifte of vtterance And Esay the Prophete saying that God had giuen him the tongue of the learned doth thereby declare Esay 50. that it is not sufficient that he be well instructed in the mysterie of saluation but that he haue also the gift of vtterance Io. Whitgifte And why doth not he which readeth an other mans Sermon preache as well as hée doth when he readeth his owne What if he pronounce another mans Sermon in the Pulpit without booke doth he not preache bicause it is not his owne I do not speake this to defende any such ignorant Pastor that should néede so to depende vpon other mens labours I doe but put a case It may be that a learned Pastor hauing both memorie and vtterance sometime vpon occasion may reade a Sermon And I nothing doubt but in so doing he preacheth And surely he shall the more redily haue the lawe in his lippes if he haue it first in his Papers And yet if he reade he must vse his lippes Ieremie the Prophete as it appeareth in the. 36. Chapter was commaunded to write that which the Lord had commaunded him to say to the people of Iere. 36. Iuda and of Ierusalem and to cause it to be read vnto them and so it was in the open congregation and in the house of the Lorde in the hearing of all the people And so did Baruch in like maner write that which he had to say to Iechonia and to Bar. 1. all the people and read the same in the open congregation Bar. 1. and surely both these bookes were Sermons Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 127. about the middest Afterward M. Doctor asketh whether S. Paule did not preach to the Romaines when he wrote vnto them No forsooth his writing to the Romaines was no more preaching than S. Rom. 1. Paules hande or his pen. which were his instruments to write with were his tongue or his lightes or any other partes which were his instruments to speake with And S. Paule himselfe writing to the Romaines putteth a difference betwene his writing his preaching when although he wrote vnto them yet he excuseth himselfe that he coulde not come to preach vnto them saying that he was readie as much as lay in him to preach vnto them Io. Whitgifte Forsooth and I thinke verely that the same Epistle did them more good and wrought more with them than if the selfe same matter had béene preached vnto them and not written And if you will but peruse the. 15. and. 16. vers of the. 15. Chapter of that Epistle I thinke that you shall heare the Apostle call this written Epistle in effect preaching I do not perceyue that in the first Chapter of this Epistle he maketh any such difference betweene his wryting vnto them and hys preaching If you meane the. 15. verse he therein onely signifieth that so much as lyeth in him he is readie personally to preach the Gospell among them as well as he doth it nowe by his letters and therefore to say that this his wryting is no more preaching than his hande or his pen was his tongue or his lightes is a proper iest but not so apt for the purpose nor so fitte for your person A mans minde is commonly much better expressed by wryting than by worde and that which is written continueth Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. somevvhat past the middest But sayeth he was not the reading of Deuteronomie preaching No more than the reading of Exod. Here be good proofes It is generally denied that readyng is preaching and M. Doctor without any proofe taketh it for graunted that the readyng of 〈◊〉 is preaching al men see how pitifull reasons these be Io. Whitgifte And why then did God by Moses Deut. 31. commaunde the Priestes and Leuites that they should reade The wordes of this lawe before all Israell that they might Deut. 31. heare it and learne and feare the Lorde God and keepe and obserue all the wordes of the lawe Why did Iosiah after he had founde this booke cause it to be read before all the people if readyng had not bene effectuall and of as great force to persuade as preaching that is if readyng in effect had not bene preaching If the eight chapter of Nehemias Nehem. 8. be well considered and the true meaning of the. 4. and. 7. verses according to learned and godly interpreters weyghed and pondered this controuersie will soone be at an ende it will there appeare in expresse wordes that readyng is preaching These pitifull reasons so disquiet your patience that it woulde pitie a man to see how of a diuine you are become a scornefull iester Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 162. Sect. 2. Act. 15. it is thus written For Moses of old tyme hath in euery citie them that preach him seyng he is read in the Synagogues euery Sabboth day Where he also seemeth to call reading preaching T. C. Pag. 127. Tovvardes the ende And in the. 162. page he alleageth that in the. 15. of the Actes S. Luke seemeth to meane by readyng preaching But what dealing is this vpon a (*) If your seemings and coniectures were taken away there would be few reasons left seeming and coniecture to set downe so certainely and vndoubtedly that reading is preaching and then there is no one letter nor syllable that vpholdeth any suche comecture For S. Iames sayeth that Moses meaning the lawe read euery Sabboth thorough out euery towne in the Sinagogue was also preached or had those that preached it setting forth the order which was vsed in all the hurches amongst the people of God that alwayes when they mette vpon the Sabboth dayes they had the scriptures first read and then preached of and expounded which is that the Authours of the Admonition do desire and therefore complayne for that after readyng followeth no preaching which any indifferent man may easily vnderstande by that that they saye In the olde tyme the worde was preached nowe it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read Io. Whitgifte Surely the place of it selfe is euident neyther can I reade any interpreter that doth otherwise vnderstand it than of reading the occasion of vttering these wordes importeth the same For S. Iames doth vse this for a reason why the ceremonies of the lawe could not by and by be abolished among the Iewes bycause Moses was of so great authoritie with them beyng read euery Sabboth day in their Churches Therefore hauing the wordes of the Scripture with me I must rest in my opinion
vntill I heare some proofe or authoritie to the contrarie Howbeit the waight of the cause lieth not vpon this text this is but one reason among diuerse Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. Sect. vlt. But M. Doctor heareth with his left eare and readeth with his lefte eye as though his right eye were pulled out or his right are cut of For otherwise the other wordes which they haue touching this matter might easily haue bene expounded by the argument and matter whiche they handle Io. Whitgifte How doth it then happen that you haue not salued the matter by setting downe theyr wordes and declaring how I haue mistaken them seyng you haue omitted that men may well thinke that this is not vttered of you in good earnest Now that you haue sayde all in this matter you must giue me leaue to let the Reader vnderstande what you haue lefte vntouched in my booke concerning the same whither it be bycause you consent vnto it or that you cannot answere it I referre to his discretion ¶ The profite of Reading Scriptures in the Churche Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 91. Sect. 2. 3. Isidorus sayth that reading bringeth great profit to the hearers Isidorus Tertul. in Apologet Tertullian sayth when we come togither to the reading of the holy Scriptures we feede our fayth with those heauenly voyces we rayse vp our affiance we fasten our hope And agayne he calleth the reading of the Scriptures the feeding of our fayth But what neede I speake any more of a matter so manifest you atly ioyne Hardinges opinion of reading scripture with the Papiste in this for in the confutation of the Apologie of the Church of England M. Harding calleth reading of the Scriptures to the people in the Churche a spirituall dumbnesse and a thing Parte 5. and in the. 15. Arti. of the Replie vnprofitable c. That to reade the Scriptures in the Churche is no new thing but most auncient and grounded vpon Gods worde it is manifest by that which is written in the. 4. of Luke where the Euangelist sayeth that Christe on the Sabboth daye going into the Synagogue Luc. 4. according to his accustomed manner rose vp to read and there vvas deliuered vnto him the booke of the Prophete Esay and as soone as he opened the booke he founde the place vvhere it vvas vvritten Spiritus Domini super me c. The spirite of the Lorde vpon me c. Likewise in the thirtenth of the Actes we reade that Paule and other of his company beyng in the Synagogue on the Sabboth day was sent vnto by the rulers of the Sinagogue Post lectionem legis Prophetarum After the reading Ad. 13. of the lavve and the Prophetes To knowe if they would make any exhortation to the people Iustinus Martyr Apolog. 2. pro Christianis sayth that in his time the manner Iustinus Mar yr was on the Sabboth day vvhen the people vvere gathered togither to haue the scriptur s read in the publike congregation and in the time of publike prayer for the space of one vvhole hovver Origen writing vpon Iosua Homil. 15. sayeth that the bookes of the Orig n. olde Testament vvere deliuered by the Apostles to be read in the Churches Cyprian lib. 2. Epist. 5. sayeth The Reader soundeth out the high and Cyprian heauenly vvordes he readeth out the Gospell of Christe c. Chrysostome vpon the Actes Homil. 19. The minister and common minister standeth vp and crieth vvith a lovvde voyce saying Keepe silence Chrysostome Augustine after that the Reader beginneth the prophesie of Esay Augustine speaking to the people sayeth Yee heard vvhen the Gospell vvas read Ye heard erevvhyle vvhen it vvas read if ye gaue eare to the reading dearely beloued vve haue heard in the lesson that hath bene read Admonition And that this is not the feeding that Christe spake of the Scriptures are playne d For reading ministers vievv these places Mala. 2. 7. Esay 56. 10 Zach. 11. 15 at 15. 14. Tim. 3. 3 Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse too for players yet learne theyr partes without booke and these a mayny of them can scarcely read within booke These are emptie feeders e Math. 6. 22 darke eyes f Math. 9. 38 〈◊〉 3. ill workemen to hasten in the Lordes haruest g Luc. 14. 17 messangers that can not cal h Mat. 23. 34 Prophers that can not declare the will of the Lord i Math. 5. 13 vnsauerie salt k Mat. 15. 14 blind guides l Isay. 36. 10 sleepie watchmen m Cor. 4. 1. Luc 16. 1. vntrustie dispensers of Gods secretes n 2. Tim. 2. 15 euill deuiders of the worde o 〈◊〉 1. 9. weake to withstande the aduersarie p 2. T 3. 15. 16. not able to confute And to conclude so farre from making the man of God perfect to all good workes that rather the quite contrarie may be confirmed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 161. Sect. 2. 3. For reading ministers you bid vs viewe these places Mala. 2. vers 7. Esay 56. 10. Zachar. 11. 15. Matth. 15. 14. 1. Timoth. 3. 3. The Prophete Malachie in the seconde chapter and seuenth verse sayeth on this sorte For the Priestes lippes shoulde preserue knovvledge and they shoulde seeke the lavve at his mouthe For he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes In whiche wordes the Prophete doth signifie that the Priestes ought to be learned in the lawe and able to instruct which no man denieth and if there be any crepte into the ministerie whiche a not able so to do it is to be ascribed eyther to the negligence of t Bishop and such as haue to do therein or to the necessitie of the Reading is profitable t me But here is nothing spoken agaynst reading for any thing that I can gather and if any man shoulde come vnto me and demaunde of me any question touching the lawe of God I thinke I shoulde better satisfie him if I did reade the wordes of the lawe vnto him than if I should make a long tedious discourse of myne owne to litle or no purpose It is the worde it selfe that pearceth and mou th the conscience I speake not this agaynst interpreting of the Scriptures or preaching Pag. 162. Sect. 1. 2. for I know they be both necessary but agaynst such as be enimies to the reading of them The places in the. 56. of Esay and in the eleuenth of zacharie tende to the same purpose they all speake agaynst ignorant foolish slouthfull gouernours and pastours there is nothing in them that condemneth or disaloweth readyng of the Scriptures or reading of Prayers No more is there in the fiftenth of Matthew nor 1. Timo 3. reade the places and you shal soone see with how litle iudgement they be quoted agaynst such ministers
puritie of the primitiue Churche Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 105. Sect. vlt. c. Interrogatories to be ministred to the infant be not straunge Interrogatories ministred to infantes Dionysius Areopag neyther lately inuented but of great antiquitie For Dionysius Areopagita in his booke entituled De caelest Hierar and seuenth chapter speaking of the baptising of infantes and of their sureties or godfathers and answering to certayne prophane deriders as he termeth them which sayde that one was baptised for an other bycause the Godfather did promise and answere for the childe speaketh thus in the name of the Godfather Neque enim hoc ille ai Ego pro puero abrenunciationes facio aut fidei Sacramenta prositeor sed ita puer renunciat profitetur id est spondeo puerum inducturum cum ad sacram intelligentiam venerit sedulis adhortationibus meis vt abrenuntiet contrarijs omnino profiteaturque peragat diuina quae pollicetur Neyther doth he say this I renounce for the childe or professe the Sacraments of faith but in this sort the childe doth renounce or professe that is to say I promise so to instruct the childe vvhen he commeth to the yeares of discretion vvith dayly exhortacions that he shall renounce all contrary thinges and professe and performe those heauenly thinges vvhich he doth promise T. C. Pag. 133. Sect. vlt. Pag. 134. Sect. 1. There followeth the interrogatories or demaundes ministred vnto the infantes in baptisme for the proofe whereof is brought in the first place Dionysius Areopagita a worthy couer for such a cup. For to let passe that M. Doctor alleageth the celestiall Hierarchie in steade that he should haue cited the ecclesiasticall Hierarchie this testimonie beyng found in the one and in the other dare M Doctor be so bolde as to delude the worlde in so great light with such babies as this doth he thinke that the Authour of these bookes of Hierarchies beyng so full of subtile speculations vayne and idle fantasies wicked blasphemies making one order of Popes an other of Prelates the third of Sacrifie s and then of Monkes some of which orders came not many hundred yeares after that time wherein Denise the Areopagite liued which mentioneth many foolish ceremonies and corruptions that no other Authour neyther Greeke nor Latine stories nor other diuers hundreth yeares after doth make mention of besides him I say doth he thinke to abuse menne and to giue them such drosse in steade of Siluer such chaffe in steade of corne as to make vs beleeue that he that wrote these bookes of Hierarchie was S. Paules scholler for the better blasing of this Denis armes I will sendè the reader vnto that which Erasmus writeth of this Denis of M. Doctors vpon the. 17. of the Aetes of the Apostles where he also sheweth togither with his owne iudgement the iudgement of Laurentius Ualla I am not ignorant what Nicephorus a fabulous Historiographer and of no credite in such matters in those matters especially which might like or mislyke those times wherein he wrote sayeth of S. Paules communicating with Denis and 2. Lib. 20. cap. an other concernyng the heauenly and ecclesiasticall hierarchie But bycause I thinke M. Doctor be now ashamed of his Deuis I will follow it no further By this it may appeare that M. Doctors Dionysius beyng a counterfet and start vp these Interrogatories and demaundes ministred vnto infantes haue not so many graye heares as he would make vs beleeue although in deede the question lieth not in the antiquitie As for reasons he hath none but only as one which hath learned his aequipollences very euill he maketh it all one to say I renounce and to say I will teach another to renounce Io. Whitgifte I knowe there is contrary opinions of learned men touching the authoritie and Authour of these bookes And yet it cannot be denied but that they be very auncient neyther is it any shame for me to alleage his authoritie seing the B. of Sarisburie is not ashamed to alleage the same booke against Harding to proue reading of Defense of the Apolog. Parte 5. the Scriptures in the Church with as great credite as I do Howbeit I wil not take vpon me the defense of them neyther do I doubte but that something may be thrust in vnto them but of all other thinges this is the least to be suspected that I haue in this place alleaged Neyther am I any more ashamed of him than you are of so often alleaging the Canons of the Apostles Hyginus c. the which authorities are as much doubted of as the bookes of Dionysius His reason is to be considered agreing fully with the true meaning of this Churche of Englande but you wipe it away with a floute as your manner is when you are driuen to a pinche Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 106. Sect. 1. Pag. 107. Sect. 1. Augustine also in his Epistle written ad Bonifacium answering Augustine this Question why seing we dare promise nothing of the infantes behauiour and manners when he commeth to mans state yet when An obiection made by Augustine The Answere to the same he is brought to baptisme and the question is asked of those that offer him to be baptised whither the infant beleeue or no they answere that he doth beleeue sayth on this sorte Nisi sacramenta quandam haberent similitudinem c. Except Sacramentes had a certayne similitude and likenesse of those thinges vvhereof they be Sacramentes they vvere no Sacramentes at all and by reason of this same similitude oftentymes they are called by the names of the thinges themselues therefore as after a crtayne manner of speaking the Sacrament of the body of Christe is the body of Christe the Sacrament of the bloud of Christe is the bloud of Christe so the Sacrament of the fayth is fayth neyther is it anything els to beleeue than to haue fayth and therefore vvhen ansvvere is made that the infant dothe beleeue not hauing as yet fayth in deede it is ansvvered that he doth beleeue for the Sacrament of fayth and that he doth conuert himselfe vnto God for the Sacrament of conuersion bycause the ansvvere it selfe doth perteyne to the celebration of the Sacrament And a litle after he sayeth Itaque paruulum etsi nondum fides illa quae in credentium voluntate consistit iam tamen ipsius fidei Sacramentum fidelem facit Nam sicut credere respondetur ita etiam fidelis vocatur non rem ipsa mente annuendo sed ipsius rei Sacramentum percipiendo Therfore although that faith vvhich consisteth in the vvill of the beleeuers dothe not make the ehylde faythfull yet dothe the Sacrament of that fayth make him faithfull for euen as it is ansvvered that he dothe beleeue so is he also called faithfull not by signifying the thing it selfe in his minde but by receyuing the Sacrament of the thing By these two authorities it is manifest that
beware of this doctrine the whiche vnlesse I proue to be the selfe same with the Papistes in substance let me susteine that punishement that is due vnto them whome I burden charge with forgetfulnes of dutie in this poynt Saunders in that trayterous booke of his wryteth thus That hath deceiued many Saunders the Rep er agree bicause they see kings to be Christians and to rule ouer Christians for they knowe not or at the least they will not knowe what difference there is whether thou rule ouer a Christian in that he is a Christian or in that he is a man For a king ruleth ouer Christian men but not Saunders bicause they bee Christians but bicause they bee men and bicause byshoppss be men in that respect he ruleth also ouer them c. And. T. C. in his Reply pag. 35. writeth on this Pag. 5. in the miast manner saying That the godlye Magistrate is the head of the common wealth but not of the churche meaning that particular churche conteyned in the common wealth whereof he is gouernour and in the same page he saith that the Christian Magistrate is but only a member of that particular churche And pag 145. he sayeth That the Prynce may well bee Pag. 〈◊〉 Sed 1. Monarche immediatly betwene God and the common wealth and not betwene God the church in that common wealth or any singular member in the church and in this place he would haue the ciuill Magistrate no more to intermedle with making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders than the ecclesiasticall minister should deale with ciuill diuers such nippes and pinches he hath at the ciuill Magistrate speaking no other wyse of hym than of a Turke or a Iewe and giuing him no more authoritie in the church of Christe and ouer Christians than if hee were the great Turke or wicked Nero. But I answere them bothe with the wordes of M. Musculus in his common places Titu de Magistratu Let Ethnickes and infidels whiche liue not in the vnitie of truthe but in the confusion of errour haue their diuers lawes Musculus and magistrates some prophane and some holy whose whole life is prophane whose religion is but ecclesiasticall superstition and in the temple only Christian people are altogether hely and dedicated to the name of Christe not in temples only and ecclesiasticall rites but in their whole life in euery place at al times in all things in al deedes and studies that according to the admonitiō of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eate or drinke or whatsoeuer he doth all may be done to the glory of God and Col. 3. whatsoeuer he doth in woorde or in deede hee doe it in the name of the Lorde c. VVherefore that distinction of Ecclesiasticall prophane lawes hath no place in it bicause there is nothing in it that is prophane seeing it is a people holy to the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie is holy his lawes are holy his sword is holy a reuenger of the wicked and vngodly whereby he serueth the Lorde being the chiefe lawmaker and iudge our members are the members of Christ and our bodies are the bodies of the holy ghost we are willed to glorifie God not in our spirit onely but in our bodie also 1. Cor. 6. Therefore this be sarre 〈◊〉 authoritie Pap t s giue to the 〈◊〉 in ec 〈◊〉 from the church of Christ that it should be partly holy and partly prophane holy before and prophane behinde lyke vnto an Idoll which sheweth beautifull before and behinde is full of filth and Spyders webbes Againe the Papistes giue to the Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters Potestatem facti and not iuris that is to sée those lawes executed and put in practise that the Pope and his Clergie shall make and to bée as it were their executioner but not to make any lawes or orders in Ecclesiastical matters for so writeth Saunders in his book before named Fol. 64. Although I doe not denye but that the knowledge of a Saunders facte that belongeth to the ecclesiasticall lawe may be committed to kings and Magistrates and before the ecclesiastical cause be determined the king may vse his authoritie to this end that there may be some quiet place prepared where the bishops shall cōsulte and that the bishops be called to the same place at a certein day and that in the meane time while the matter is in determining cōmon peace may be preserued euen among the priests them selues to conclude after the cause be determined and iudged by the priests the king may punishe him with the sworde which he carieth not in vaine or by some other corporall punishmēt which shal refuse to obey the sentence of the priests Therfore we do not deny but that kings haue something to do both before and at and after the iudgements of the bishops but in the office of iudging they haue no more to do than other priuate persons for they may well giue councell and declare what they thinke but they may not determine or define what Gods lawes or the ecclesiastical lawe doth require And doth not T. C. in this place affirme the Potestas facti not iuris ascribed to the magistrates same onely herein he séemeth something to differ y t if the ecclesiastical gouernours shall make any orders vnmeete the magistrate may driue them to better But what if they saye they be méete will stand to it as you do now in this fonde platforme will they not crye out vpon the magistrate saye that he is a persecutour a mainteiner of an vnlawfull authoritie of that which is against the glorie of God if he withstande thē as the authours of the seconde Admonition do in playne termes saying For though the orders be and ought to be drawen out of the booke of God yet it is her Maiestie that by her princely 2. Admonit pag. 60. authoritie should see euery of these thyngs put in practise and punyshe those that neglect them making lawes therefore for the churche may keepe those orders but neuer in peace except the comfortable and blessed assistance of the states and gouernours imcke in to see them in their countreis and vsed for otherwyse the church maye and must keepe Gods orders but alwaies in troubles and persecution which is like to light vpon vs except a reformation of religion or a direct prouiso for vs bee made for surely only this is God his order and ought to be vsed in his churche so that in conscience we are forced to speake for it and to vse it and in conscience and in reuerence of God we are forced to speake as we do of that reformation which we nowe vse not so much for ought else as to set out the deformities thereof that we might thinke vpon the amending of them M. Musculus in the booke and title before recited setteth out this Popish
149. Sect. 1. And what reason can you giue why you should not aswell all owe Scilicet the Communion booke of it by subscription as you say that you haue hitherto done by vsing of it in your ministerie Will you speake one thing and doe an other Will you not subscribe to that whiche you publikely vse and giue your consent vnto T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. The Admonition hath no such thing as M. Doctor chargeth the authors therof with that they dyd euer allow of the booke of seruice It sayth they bare with it and vsed it so farre as they might and therfore nowe when it came to the approuing of it by subscription they refused and there is no man which can not vnderstande that it is one thing to beate with a thing and an other to approue it and therfore to beare and to vse it so farre as might be may well agree with their refusall of subscription so that M. Doctors note is not worth the noting The Apostles did beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes addicted to the obseruation of the ceremoniall lawe yet they neuer allowed that infirmitie and they were so farre from approuing it by subscribing that they wrote agaynst it Io. Whitgifte They say they haue not only borne with it but vsed it also in their ministerie c. he that vseth a thing doth as much allowe of it by vsing as he could doe by subscribing But I will not contende with you about a matter of so small weight for neyther is their learning discretion or iudgement suche that the booke is better or worse for their allowing or disallowing of it They shew their natures bent to contention and vnreuerent estimation of the scriptures by abusing of them and that is all that can be gathered out of their booke The Apostles refused not to subscribe vnto such things as they permitted vnto the Iewes for a time neyther did they beare with any thing for their infirmitie agaynst the which they wrote If they haue done any such thing note the place Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 149. Sect. 1. If those persons by whome this booke was first authorised were studious of peace and of buylding vp of Christes Church as you say they were then you that seeke to deface it are disturbers of peace and destroyers of the Churche of Christ. They were singular learned men zelous in Gods religion blamelesse in life and Martyrs at their end for eyther al or the most part of them haue sealed this booke with their bloud But by the A note by the waye way this is to be noted that you confesse your selues to haue allowed that by vsing of it which you say is agaynst the worde of God T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. Those sayth M. Doctor which authorised this booke were studious of peace and of buylding of Christes Church therfore they that speake agaynst it which he calleth defacing are disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the Church So I will reason (*) Vnequal com parisons For in these poyntes they were not buylders vp of Christes church Gedeon was studious of peace and of building of the Church therefore they whyche spake agaynst the Ephod whyche he made were disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church We speake agaynst Images in churches and consubstantiation in the sacraments such lyke which Luther beeing studious of peace and of the building of the church did holde and yet we are not therfore disturbers of peace or destroyers of the church Although they were excellent personages yet their knowledge was in part and although they brought many things to our light yet they beeing sent out in y e morning or euer the sunne of the Gospell was risen so hygh might ouersee many things which those that are not so sharpe of sight as they were may see for bicause that which they want in the sharpnesse of sight they haue by the benefite and clearnesse of the sunne and of the light They sealed not the booke of seruice with their bloud as M. Doctor sayth for some that suffered for the truth declared openly their misliking of certayne things in it and as for the other they could neuer dye for that booke more than for the Lyturgie vsed in the French church or at Geneua For they receyued not the sentence of condemnation bicause they approued that booke but bicause they improued the articles drawne out of the Masse booke And if they had dyed for that booke as in deede they dyed for the booke of God yet the authoritie of their martyrdome coulde not take away from vs this libertie that we haue to enquire of the cause of their death Iustine and Cyprian were godly Martyrs and yet a man may not say that they sealed their errours whiche they wrote wyth their bloud or wyth this glory of their martyrdome preiudice those which speake or write agaynst their errours for this is to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of God Io. Whitgifte These be the words of the Admonition they saye that the Authors of that booke were studious of peace and of the building vp of Christes Churche and therefore vpon their owne words and confession I grounde mine argument This peace that they were studious of and sought to maynteyne by collecting and authorising this booke was a godly peace sought to be maynteyned by godly meanes and therefore suche as shall deface that godly meanes wherby they procured peace can not de iudged otherwyse than disturbers of the same peace Gedeon by making the Ephod did not séeke peace but rather glory for he erected Gedeons Ephod it to be a monument of his victorie Gedeon erected the Ephod for an other ende and purpose than God did appoynt it the Ephod that Gedeon made was the cause of idolatrie Likewise Images are expresly forbidden in the word of God there is a direct cōmaundement agaynst them so is consubstātiation also But the booke of common prayer is framed according to the scriptures appoynted to the true worshipping of God most repugnant to all Idolatrie Idolatrous worshipping and therfore these similitudes exāples that you vse be nothing like it is neither like to Gedeons Ephod ▪ nor maynteineth Luthers Images or consubstantiation but ouerthroweth them all Their knowledge was in parte in that sense that the Apostle speaketh Ex parte The prayse of the makers of the booke enim cognoscimus ex parte prophetamus VVe knowe in part and we prophecie in part c. But if they be compared vnto men I thinke for learning zeale godlynesse sounde 1. Cor. 1 iudgemēt most of thē haue not bin ouermatched by any that hath folowed And surely their learning iudgement was singular But no maruell it is though you make so small account of me poore wretch when you so basely speake of them Undoubtedly in cōparison of your selues I thinke you contēne
Collections made in vaine and framed according to your owne pleasure not so my meaning If you haue done it of ignorance you are to be excused if of set purpose you are to be blamed And wheras you say that M. Doctor must vnderstand that this was ecclesiastical powers Peters punishing of Ananias was by ciuill iurisdiction ▪ Beza de Haeret à Magist. puniendis I say on the other side that you must vnderstand that this was not ecclesiasticall but méere ciuill which you might haue learned of M. Beza in diuers places of his booke de Haereticis à Magistratu pun For thus he writeth Cedò igitur Christus quo iure flagellum his corripuit quo iure Petrus Ananiam Sapbiram occidit quo iure Paulus Elymam excaecauit ▪ Num ecclesiastici ministerij minimè profectò nisi iurisdictiones confundas Ergo ciuilis Magistratus iure Nihil enim est tertium Tell me therefore by what lawe did Christ take the whip in hand twise by what law did Peter kill Ananias and Saphira by what right did Paule strike Elymas with blindnesse did they those things by the right of the ecclesiasticall ministerie no truly except you will confound iurisdictions They did it therefore by the right of ciuill magistracie for ther is no meane And to the same purpose doth he speake sundry times in that booke What outcries I haue vsed or declamations which you haue not in ample manner requited adding to the same al opprobrious kind of speaches and iesting taunts that you could deuise let the indifferent Reader iudge wherfore I hartely wish vnto you both better knowledge and better conscience Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 171. Sect. 1. Unto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that Pope Eugensus brought in prisons into the Church as also vnto the three or fower such like demands ▪ which he maketh in this booke the authours of the Admonition answer at once that this and the other are found in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Io. Whitgifte What authors doe they alleadge for them for bothe these be but very late writers and this is a matter of historie and therfore requireth some greate antiquitie nerer vnto the tyme of Eugenius who liued Anno. 650. but you knowe verie well that our Bishops claim not this authoritie by any constitution or canon of the Pope neither doe they exercise it in their owne name but they haue it from the Prince and in hir name and by hir authoritie do they vse it Chap. 3. the. 14. Diuision Bishop of Sarum Both these gouernments vvere confounded in Moses Therfore they may be confounded and the Priestes of Israell had the iudgement and gouernment Ecclesiastical and ciuill iurisdiction confounded in Moses of the people and S. Augustine was troubled with hearing and determining of causes as it appeareth by Possidonius And where you say to be a chief or a ruler is a ciuill gouernment nay in ecclesiasticall causes it is ecclesiasticall gouernment and not ciuill And these differences of gouernment Augustine heareth ciuill causes may not so vnaduisedly be confounded This is the key of ecclesiasticall correction and belongerh onely to the ecclesiasticall officer and to none other Hereof Saincte Paule sayth Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub c. Tradidi illum Satanae This iurisdiction is not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and therfore may be exercised by an ecclesiasticall person T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Here I wyll take in that whiche the Bishop of Sarisburye hath in the last page of his half sheete touching this matter And fyrst of all I well agree that he sayth that to giue vnto Sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an ecclesiasticall person by reprehension or putting him out of the ministerie if the cause so require is mere ecclesiastical and not ciuill and that those things ought to be done of the officers of the Churche This onely I denye that the ministers ought to medle with ciuill offices For proofe whereof the Bishop alleageth the example of Augustine whiche as Possidonius writeth was troubled with the hearing determining of causes Wherin Possidonius sayth nothing but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister with the elders ought both to heare and determine of causes but of such causes as perteyne vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidomus ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustine as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that which he writeth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certain in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accounted of this as of compulsien and resiraynte from his better busynesses Wherby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not with those worldly affaires further than by way of giuing counsell which is not vnlawfull for a minister to doe as one friende vnto another so that his ministerie be not therby hindered Io. Whitgifte What S. Augustine did in such matters and whether he weroccupied in worldly Augustine iudge in worldely matters matters or no and that he was not a counsell giuer only but also a iudge it shall best appeare by his owne wordes spoken of himselfe whiche are so playne and euident that after you haue hearde them you will be ashamed of this answere to Possidonius and of your former assertion also Augustine therefore in his booke de opere Aug. lib. de opere Monac Monachorum of this matter writeth thus VVho feedeth a flock and doth not receiue of the milke of the flocke And yet I call to witnesse vpon my soule the Lorde Iesus in whose name I doe boldely speake these thinges that touchyng myne owne commoditie I hadde rather euerye daye as it is appoynted in well ordered Monasteries to woorke some thyng wyth my handes and to haue the other houres free to reade and to praye or too dooe somme thynge in the Holye Scriptures than too suffer the tumultuous perplexities of other mennes causes touchyng secular businesse eyther in determinyng them by iudging or in cutting them off by intreatyng to the whyche troubles Augustine thinketh that the how ghost hath bounde Bishops to ciuill causes the Apostle hathe bounde vs not by his owne iudgement but by the iudgement of hym whyche didde speake in him and yet hee himselfe did not suffer these troubles for the discourse of his Apostleship was otherwyse Here in playne woordes hée declareth that it was secular busynesse aboute the whyche he was occupyed and although he séeme to complayne of the multitude of suche businesse yet dothe hee acknowledge the same to bee lawfull iuste and conueniente and therefore he addeth and sayeth VVhyche laboure notwythstandyng wee suffer not without the consolation of the Lorde for the hope of eternall lyfe that wee maye bryng foorthe frute wyth pacience for wee are seruauntes of that Churche and especially to the weaker members what members soeuer wee are in the same bodie And
with the fault of the print or by carping at the translation when the wordes being changed the sense remayneth or by alleadging that such a one or such another was of this or that iudgement as you for the most part hauing nothing but his bare name haue done All whiche thinges you haue committed in this booke ▪ but that you confute it by the authoritie of the worde of God by good and sound reasons wholy and not by peecemeale And if you bring the practise of the churches we desire that it may be out of authorities which are extant which are not counterfeyte and which were in the best and purest times And if you thinke that the credite of your Doctor ship or Deanry will beare out that which you cannot answer your selfe besides that * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is neuer shut ▪ remember M. Doctor that lighte is come into tht worlde and The reuenging eye men will not be deluded with nothing nor abused with visards neyther let it embolden you which peraduenture hathe made poli presume the more in ▪ this booke to write any thing vppon hope that no man dare answer it For neyther the Queenes Maiestie nor hir honorable counsell as we are perswaded will deale so sharply with those whome they know to be faithfull and lawfull subiects which pray that all the treasures of Gods wisedome may be poured vpon them neither haue we cause to thinke but that as the euill opinion which is in part conceiued of vs hath growen vppon false and vntrue informations whiche you and such other haue giuen in crying in their eares that we be Anabaptists conspired with Papists Puritanes Donatists bringers in of confusion and anarchy enimies to ciuill gouernment and I know not what euen so when hir Maiestie and their honours shall vnderstand how farre we are from those wicked opinions they will leaue that opinion of vs ▪ and rather esteeme of vs by that we haue preached taught and now write than that whiche other men report of vs being thinges which we neuer taught ▪ spake or so much as dreamed of Io. Whitgifte It is so farre from satisfying me in any point that it greatly confirmeth me in some thing where vnto before I did but incline Such is the weakenesse of your grounds Your request made vnto me is against all reason for how can you require that of The Replye requireth that of others which he him selfe woulde not performe me towarde you which you haue in no respect perfourmed towards me for firste you haue not set downe my booke that the Reader mighte perceiue how vprightly you deale with me secondly you haue passed ouer many thinges and left them vnanswered Thirdly you haue vnreasonably wrested my words and in most places you do nothing but wrangle you haue mangled my booke and so skipt from place to place that the Reader shall hardly perceine what you take or what you leaue to be short you haue vsed few scriptures and those vntollerably wrested How then can you require the contrary of me But I haue satisfied your request to the full I trust saue only I do not intend to learne of you how to answer what authoritie to vse but if the authorities and reasons that I bring shall be sound to be light they shall the more easily by you be remoued I depend not vppon the credit of my Doctorship or Deanry neither would I wish you too much to trust to the opinion of your owne learning and witte I say with Sainte Augustine Let scripture be compared with scripture reason with reason authoritie with authoritie cause with cause and let vs both according to the same be iudged I doubte not of the answering of my booke neyther do I feare it you knowe that Conference by writing hath bin often offered to the Replier I haue offered you diuerse tymes this kind of conference though not in thys publike manner I haue spoken nothing agaynste you before hir maiestie whyche your bookes and doings haue not proued to be true Hir Maiestie and their honours know what they haue to do the Lord blisse them with his holy spirit and in all their doings guide them Of the additions detractions and alterations made by the admonitors in both the partes of the Admonition T. C. Pag. 173. Sect. 1. Beside that often thne M. Doctor doth account the expositions and explanations corrections he ueth vs somewhat the lesse hope that he will correct his errours for that he purfueth the authours of the Admonition so harde correcting their very small and few slips whiche they haue made calling this singular destie and commendable hum tie amongst other reproches dalying and inconstancie when it is our profession euery day to learne better things For vnto what end should we liue if time if experiēce if reading iusing if conference should teach vs nothing And therefore when thinges are printed againe it is good and prayse worthy to polishe those thynges which are some what rud to mitigate these things which are too sharpe to make playne to giue light to those things which seeme darker and to correct that which is amisse I thinke M. Doctor should not be ignorante that wise men haue their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there second councells and those also wiser and better than their first as that sentence doth declare I will therefore say no more hereof but admonish M. Doctor that he receiue more louingly those whiche correcte themselues seing that the best defense to his booke must be not a correction here and there but a cleane blotting or striking out not an amending but a new making almost of his whole booke Other matter in his censures he hath almost none at all woorth the answering sauing that he hathe a place or two which toucheth the matters before entreated of Io. Whitgifte It behoueth such as will take vpon them to plucke downe that which is wel builded They whiche wil pul down the olde and place a newe platforme oughte to be v rie circumspecte and to make a new platforme to be well aduised what they do and assured of their cunning if this ought to be in humane matters and in externall affaires of the life of man how much more ought it to be in diuine matters and things perteyning to the kingdome of heauē I do not mislike that modestie and humilitie that is contente to be corrected and to acknowledge that whiche is ami e. But I can by no meanes allowe that pryde and arrogancie that presuming to condemne the whole state of a Churche and to prescribe vnto the same a newe platforme is by and by after through vnskilfulnesse and lack of discretion at the first constreyned to misselyke that newe platforme also and to p ce it and patch it like a beggers cloke with putting too and taking fro with altering and chaunging sometyme this and sometyme that like vnto foolishe and vnskilful buylders It behoueth suche as will take vpon them