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A88101 A discourse of disputations chiefly concerning matters of religion, with animadversions on two printed books, (mentioned in the contents following next after the epistles:) the latter whereof, at the request of Dr. John Bryan, (for censure and advice) being seriously perused; the author of it, John Onley, is thereupon convinced of error, slander, and of arrogant, uncivill, and unchristian miscarriage, not onely towards him, but all the reformed churches of the world, out of the way of his most affected singularity. By John Ley, rector of the church of Solyhull in Warwicksh. Whereto is added a consolatory letter to Dr. Bryan, &c. upon the death of his worthily well-beloved and much bewailed son Mr. Nathaniel Bryan: which immediately followeth after the discourse of disputations. Ley, John, 1583-1662. 1658 (1658) Wing L1877; Thomason E938_1; Thomason E938_2; ESTC R205182 106,562 123

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other_o as_o occasion_n shall_v induce_v i_o to_o mention_v they_o though_o not_o of_o their_o tribe_n begin_v with_o aquinas_n 1._o aquinas_n aquinas_n primpart_v vol._n prim_fw-la q._n 6._o be_v 1._o and_o take_v more_o out_o of_o he_o then_o any_o other_o questionist_n because_o he_o be_v a_o canonize_v saint_n of_o the_o romish_a church_n and_o in_o their_o school_n and_o book_n common_o style_v the_o angelical_a doctor_n his_o question_n be_v 1._o of_o god_n 2._o of._n christ_n 3._o of_o angel_n 4._o of_o men._n 1._o men._n aquinas_n primpart_v vol._n prim_fw-la q._n 6._o be_v 1._o 1._o whether_o it_o be_v agreeable_a to_o god_n to_o be_v good_a 2._o good_a ib._n q._n 14_o be_v 2._o 2._o whether_o god_n understand_v himself_o 1._o himself_o ib._n q._n 19_o be_v 1._o 3._o whether_o there_o be_v a_o will_n in_o god_n 1._o god_n ib._n q._n 21._o be_v 1._o 4._o whether_o there_o be_v justice_n in_o god_n 1._o god_n ib._n q._n 25._o be_v 1._o 5._o whether_o there_o be_v power_n in_o 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divine_a matter_n and_o be_v as_o presumptuous_a many_o time_n in_o resolve_v of_o curious_a question_n as_o rash_a in_o propose_v they_o to_o the_o trial_n of_o disputation_n 561._o disputation_n idem_fw-la orat._n 35._o p._n 561._o who_o precipitation_n and_o temerity_n he_o think_v very_o fit_a to_o be_v bridle_v and_o restrain_v 3._o of_o angel_n aquinas_n inquire_v 1._o inquire_v aquin._n prim_fw-la part_n vol._n 2._o q._n 56._o be_v 1._o whether_o they_o know_v themselves_o 2._o whether_o their_o knowledge_n be_v matutine_v and_o vespertine_n which_o he_o take_v occasion_n to_o dispute_v from_o the_o expression_n of_o 8._o of_o aug._n super_fw-la genes_n ad_fw-la lit_fw-fr l._n 2._o c._n 8._o angustine_n 3._o 3._o 3._o aquin._n prim_fw-la part_n vol._n 3._o 2._o q._n 60._o be_v 3._o whether_o angel_n love_v themselves_o with_o a_o natural_a or_o a_o elective_a dilection_n 4._o 9_o 4._o ib._n q._n 63._o be_v 9_o whether_o as_o many_o remain_v in_o the_o state_n of_o grace_n as_o 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genes_n 17._o disp_n 2._o p._n 596._o v._n 1._o cum_fw-la coelibatum_fw-la profiteantur_fw-la nimis●e_fw-la muliebrium_fw-la rerum_fw-la peritos_fw-la testantur_fw-la pareus_n in_o gen._n 19_o v._n 33._o pareus_n of_o the_o badness_n of_o such_o as_o pretend_v to_o live_v chaste_o single_a show_v themselves_o by_o their_o discourse_n too_o well_o acquaint_v with_o woman_n matter_n of_o man_n death_n and_o resurrection_n there_o be_v move_v many_o dispute_n as_o idle_a and_o audacious_a as_o the_o rest_n there_o be_v one_o bartholomew_n sibylla_n have_v write_v a_o whole_a book_n of_o strange_a question_n among_o which_o 5455._o which_o barth_n sibylla_n specul_fw-la peregrin_fw-mi quaest_n decad_a 1._o c._n 2._o q._n 7._o p._n 5455._o one_o of_o the_o passage_n of_o the_o soul_n out_o of_o the_o body_n whether_o it_o go_v on_o the_o right_a hand_n or_o the_o left_a whether_o forward_a or_o backward_o of_o the_o resurrection_n aquinas_n have_v many_o vain_a query_n as_o c._n as_o 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to_o idem_fw-la tom._n 2._o p._n 322_o 351_o 358_o 368_o etc._n etc._n augustine_n none_o of_o which_o be_v bishop_n of_o rome_n but_o of_o other_o place_n ob._n but_o if_o bishop_n it_o be_v enough_o to_o discredit_v all_o they_o do_v for_o say_v mr._n o._n and_o therein_o he_o bewray_v his_o gross_a ignorance_n again_o 30._o again_o mr._n o._n in_o dispute_n p._n 30._o the_o devil_n ordain_v the_o pope_n the_o pope_n the_o bishop_n and_o the_o bishop_n you_o to_o doctor_n brian_n how_o can_v you_o be_v true_a minister_n by_o he_o that_o be_v none_o himself_o by_o that_o which_o have_v be_v observe_v of_o the_o title_n pope_n as_o in_o the_o ancient_a acception_n of_o it_o the_o devil_n no_o more_o ordain_v the_o pope_n than_o he_o do_v bishop_n for_o bishop_n as_o bishop_n be_v ordain_v neither_o by_o the_o pope_n nor_o by_o the_o devil_n but_o by_o the_o holy_a ghost_n as_o we_o have_v it_o act._n 20.28_o take_v heed_n to_o yourselves_o and_o to_o all_o the_o flock_n over_o which_o 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well_o james_z 2.19_o and_o if_o we_o shall_v not_o do_v so_o woe_n shall_v be_v worse_o than_o devil_n whatsoever_o be_v good_a in_o whosoever_o be_v from_o god_n and_o it_o be_v more_o to_o be_v esteem_v in_o relation_n to_o he_o then_o to_o be_v condemn_v in_o relation_n unto_o other_o though_o they_o he_o never_o so_o wicked_a five_o for_o the_o bishop_n that_o ordain_v our_o presbyter_n they_o ordain_v they_o as_o presbyter_n or_o minister_n for_o such_o they_o be_v before_o they_o be_v bishop_n and_o so_o be_v presbyter_n or_o minister_n those_o who_o they_o ordain_v may_v well_o be_v true_a presbyter_n and_o minister_n also_o i_o will_v note_v but_o one_o thing_n more_o of_o his_o ignorance_n and_o that_o be_v a_o probability_n that_o he_o can_v be_v learn_v from_o his_o condition_n and_o course_n of_o life_n for_o as_o one_o of_o his_o disciple_n tell_v doctor_n brian_n and_o the_o doctor_n write_v unto_o i_o in_o his_o letter_n march_v 6.16.56_o he_o painful_o follow_v 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concern_v the_o name_n parish_n and_o parochial_a precinct_n 48._o exam_n p._n 22_o 23._o disp_n p._n 48._o yet_o in_o a_o matter_n of_o great_a difficulty_n as_o the_o set_n up_o of_o church-ordinance_n by_o a_o unbapt_a say_fw-mi person_n he_o turn_v his_o reader_n over_o to_o a_o obscure_a treatise_n entitle_v the_o way_n to_o zion_n and_o doctor_n brian_n cite_v mr._n baxter_n 27_o argument_n for_o church-membership_a mr._n o._n put_v he_o off_o with_o mr._n fisher_n reply_n 128._o exam._n p._n 128._o in_o his_o imagination_n prove_v the_o contrary_a where_o he_o have_v this_o ill_a hap_n to_o make_v his_o reference_n and_o to_o bestow_v a_o commendable_a epithet_n upon_o a_o quaker_n for_o such_o a_o one_o be_v mr._n fisher_n now_o become_v and_o as_o such_o a_o one_o mr._n o._n must_v be_v a_o sharp_a adversary_n against_o he_o 50._o epist_n p._n 15_o 16_o 17._o disp_n p._n 15_o 18_o 19_o exam._n p_o 32_o 38_o 39_o 42_o 43_o 45_o 47_o 50._o unless_o he_o will_v be_v partial_a in_o that_o also_o for_o he_o write_v sharp_o against_o the_o quaker_n but_o mr._n baxter_n be_v a_o more_o rational_a religious_a sound_a and_o settle_a divine_a then_o that_o there_o can_v be_v any_o fear_n at_o all_o that_o he_o will_v ever_o turn_v or_o become_v so_o wretched_a a_o changeling_n i_o will_v take_v but_o one_o exception_n more_o out_o of_o the_o two_o book_n of_o his_o publication_n and_o that_o be_v concern_v the_o civil_a magistrate_n against_o the_o exercise_n of_o who_o authority_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n he_o often_o utter_v his_o dislike_n especial_o as_o it_o be_v assistant_n to_o minister_n in_o the_o ministerial_a function_n whereof_o i_o will_v mention_v but_o one_o passage_n of_o some_o importance_n margin_n exam._n p._n 53._o margin_n though_o it_o be_v with_o he_o but_o in_o a_o marginal_a note_n which_o be_v this_o the_o sword_n of_o the_o magistrate_n be_v your_o best_a relief_n without_o which_o i_o think_v you_o will_v live_v but_o a_o while_n whereof_o his_o meaning_n may_v be_v that_o their_o authority_n maintain_v the_o minister_n public_a maintenance_n without_o which_o they_o can_v not_o subsist_v but_o consider_v the_o spiteful_a spirit_n of_o he_o and_o his_o sect_n against_o they_o as_o suppose_v they_o and_o their_o church_n to_o be_v romish_a popish_a antichristian_a and_o babylonish_n and_o so_o will_v have_v they_o use_v no_o better_a than_o babylon_n but_o will_v stir_v up_o mortal_a enemy_n against_o they_o as_o against_o she_o according_a to_o that_o of_o j●r_n 50.14_o 15._o in_o the_o text_n set_v in_o the_o title_n page_n of_o mr._n o._n his_o examination_n there_o be_v a_o just_a cause_n of_o jealousy_n by_o that_o speech_n of_o as_o malicious_a a_o meaning_n as_o may_v be_v towards_o they_o because_o of_o the_o affinity_n of_o their_o principle_n with_o those_o of_o the_o donatist_n and_o of_o their_o consanguinity_n in_o practice_n with_o the_o bloody-minded_a 33._o bloody-minded_a ad_fw-la hanc_fw-la haeresin_fw-la id_fw-la est_fw-la donatist_n ●in_z africa_n &_o illi_fw-la pertinent_a qui_fw-la appellantur_fw-la circumcellinne_n genus_fw-la homi●un_fw-la agreste_fw-la &_o famosissimae_fw-la audaciae_fw-la non_fw-la solum_fw-la in_o a_o lios_fw-la immania_fw-la facinora_fw-la perpetrando_fw-la sed_fw-la etc._n etc._n aug._n d●_n haeres_fw-la tom_n 6._o p._n 33._o circumcellion_n to_o which_o sect_n they_o be_v sort_v by_o augustine_n in_o his_o catalogue_n of_o heresy_n chap._n x._o a_o conclusive_a answer_n to_o doctor_n brian_n desire_n of_o advice_n whether_o it_o be_v better_a to_o let_v mr._n o._n alone_o or_o to_o answer_v he_o according_a to_o his_o folly_n send_v he_o a_o good_a while_n ago_o by_o his_o son_n but_o now_o publish_v with_o enlargement_n for_o satisfaction_n of_o other_o as_o well_o as_o of_o the_o doctor_n himself_o reason_n many_o and_o weighty_a for_o the_o negagative_n what_o be_v my_o mind_n in_o answer_v your_o request_n by_o your_o son_n when_o he_o 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humility_n upon_o his_o proud_a challenge_n as_o of_o your_o ingenuity_n and_o ability_n in_o the_o conflict_n second_o i_o suspect_v your_o confidence_n in_o commit_v the_o copy_n of_o your_o dispute_n to_o his_o publication_n by_o the_o press_n will_v be_v abuse_v by_o he_o and_o so_o i_o believe_v it_o be_v more_o way_n than_o one_o as_o i_o have_v show_v three_o i_o see_v the_o arrogancy_n of_o the_o man_n spirit_n in_o the_o title_n page_n of_o his_o examination_n which_o make_v i_o deem_v he_o a_o indocible_a sophister_n far_o from_o the_o good_a mind_n of_o hierom_n who_o desire_v proficiency_n in_o what_o be_v good_a and_o to_o change_v his_o mind_n from_o any_o thing_n that_o be_v bad_a 33._o utinam_fw-la mihi_fw-la sic_fw-la semper_fw-la disputare_fw-la contingat_fw-la ut_fw-la ad_fw-la meliora_fw-la proficiens_fw-la deseram_fw-la quod_fw-la malè_fw-la tenebam_fw-la hieron_n ●dve●sus_fw-la luciserian_n vol._n 2._o p._n 147._o disp_a p._n 33._o yourself_o have_v some_o experience_n of_o his_o refractory_a humour_n when_o though_o he_o do_v or_o may_v have_v hear_v from_o your_o mouth_n a_o satisfactory_a discourse_n in_o vindication_n of_o the_o ministry_n of_o england_n wherein_o all_o that_o he_o have_v object_v and_o much_o more_o be_v full_o answer_v yet_o he_o say_v that_o you_o will_v not_o or_o can_v not_o prove_v it_o a_o true_a ministry_n four_o i_o observe_v how_o perverse_o he_o deal_v with_o you_o in_o impose_v unreasonable_a condition_n upon_o you_o in_o disputation_n wherein_o if_o you_o do_v not_o satisfy_v he_o all_o you_o do_v be_v nothing_o whereas_o that_o with_o he_o of_o so_o great_a moment_n be_v nothing_o to_o the_o purpose_n as_o i_o have_v show_v and_o in_o a_o wilful_a refusal_n to_o consult_v with_o any_o author_n of_o your_o proposal_n for_o his_o satisfaction_n you_o turn_v i_o over_o to_o mr._n hollingworth_n say_v he_o in_o answer_n to_o which_o shift_n i_o tell_v you_o once_o more_o in_o that_o path_n i_o will_v not_o follow_v you_o for_o in_o this_o controversial_a age_n so_o many_o book_n have_v be_v write_v on_o both_o side_n if_o we_o shall_v take_v this_o way_n when_o shall_v we_o answer_v ourselves_o to_o return_v each_o other_o to_o other_o work_n you_o may_v find_v i_o and_o i_o can_v you_o as_o easy_o work_v till_o you_o be_v weary_a to_o answer_v all_o book_n 23._o mr._n o._n exam._n p._n 22_o 23._o pro_fw-la and_o con_v about_o this_o subject_n then_o in_o do_v of_o which_o see_v enough_o be_v say_v already_o i_o hope_v to_o employ_v myself_o better_a for_o what_o you_o shall_v answer_v yourself_o either_o of_o yourself_o or_o by_o the_o pen_n of_o other_o transcribe_v for_o yourself_o let_v it_o be_v mr._n hollingworth_n ibid._n ibid._n or_o who_o it_o will_v be_v i_o will_v not_o decline_v the_o answer_v thereunto_o but_o at_o your_o return_n to_o they_o i_o will_v not_o go_v it_o be_v you_o i_o deal_v with_o wherein_o refuse_v your_o offer_n he_o render_v a_o reason_n which_o make_v 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