what I haue before sayd that the magistrate ought to compell them to heare the worde of God and if they profite not nor wyth sufficient teaching correcte not them selues that then they shoulde be punyshed And if you doe aske whye they shoulde be more compelled vnto the sermons then vnto the supper of the Lorde or why they are not as well to be admitted vnto the one as vnto the other you see the like done in the sacrament of baptisme whych may not be ministred vnto all to whome the word may be preached The reason also is at hand for the preaching of the worde of God to the papistes is an offer of the grace of God whych may be made to those whych are strangers from God but the ministring of the holy sacraments vnto them is a declaration and seale of Gods fauor reconciliation with them and a plain preaching partly that they be washed already from their sinnes partly that they are of the houshold of God and such as the Lord will feede to eternail lyfe whych is not lawful to be don to those whych are not of the houshold of fayth And therfore I conclude that the compelling of papists vnto the communion and the dismissing and letting of them go whē as they be to be punyshed for their stubbernes in popery wyth thys condition if they will receiue the communion is very vnlawful when as although they wold receyue it yet they ought to be kept back vntil such time as by their religious and gospellike behauior they haue purged themselues of that suspition of popery whych their former life and conuersation hath caused to be conceyued As for the fee that M. doctor sayeth we be worthy of for shewing our selues as he sayth so good patrones of the papistes he hath geuen vs well to vnderstande what it should be if he were the paymaister but as we serue the Lord in thys worke so we loke for rewarde at hys hande not fearing but that the Lord will in the ende geue such blessing vnto our labors as we shal not neede greatly to feare at the hands of those whych God hath placed in authority thereward whych you do so often call for Vnto that whych is contained in the two next sections in the. 103. and a peece of the. 104. pages I haue answeared before partly particularly and partly when I noted the generall faults of the seruice boke especially seeing that M. Doctor wil not defend the piping and organes nor no other singing then is vsed in the reformed churches whych is in the singing of two Psalmes one in the beginning and an other in the ending in a plaine tune easye bothe to be sung of those whych haue no arte in singing and vnderstanded of those whych because they can not read can not sing wyth the rest of the churche The reply vnto the next section whych is contained in the 106. 107. and a peece of the. 108. pages FOr that whych is in the. 105. page and concerneth the surplice I haue answeared before There foloweth the interrogatories or demaundes ministred vnto the infants in baptisme for the profe wherof is brought in the first place Dionisius Areopagita a worthy couer for such a cup. For to let pas that M. doctor alledgeth the celestiall hierarchie in stead that he should haue cited the ecclesiasticall hierarchie thys testimony being founde in the one and not in the other dare M. Doctor be so bold as to delude the worlde in so great light wyth suche bables as thys doth he thinke that the author of these bokes of hierarchies being so full of subtile speculations vain and idle fansies wicked blasphemies making one order of popes an other of prelates the third of sacrificers and then of monkes some of whych orders came not many hundreth yeares after that time wherin Denis the Arcopagite liued which mentioneth many folish ceremonies and corruptions that no other author neyther Greeke nor Latine stories nor others diuers hundreth yeares after dothe make any mention of besydes hym I say doth he thynke to abuse men and to geue them such drosse in steade of siluer such chaffe in stead of corne as to make vs beleue that he that wrote these bokes of hierarchie was s. Paules scholer for the better blasing of this Denis armes I will send the reader vnto that whych Erasmus wryteth of thys Denis of M. Doctors vpon the. 17. of the Actes of the Apostles where he also sheweth togither wyth hys owne iudgement the iudgement of Laurentius Valla. I am not ignorant what Nicephorus a fabulous historiographer and of no credite in such matters and in those matters especially whych myght lyke or mislike those times wherin he wrote sayeth of S. Paules communicating wyth Denis and another concerning the heauenly and Ecclesiasticall hierarchie But because I thynke M. Doctor be now ashamed of hys Denis I wil folow it no further By thys it may appeare that M. Doctors Dionisius being a counterfet and startvp these interrogatories and demaūds ministred vnto the infants haue not so many gray haires as he would make vs beleue although in dede the question lyeth not in the antiquitie As for reasons he hath none but only as one which hath learned hys aequipollences very euil he maketh it all one to say I renoūce and to say I will teach an other to renounce As for S. Augustines place although I can not alow hys reason that he maketh nor the proportion that is betwene the sacrament of the body and bloud of our sauioure Christe and hys body and bloud it selfe of one side and betwene the sacrament of baptisme and faith of the other side saying that as the sacrament of the body of Christ after a sort is the body so the baptisme of the sacrament of faith is after a sort faith whereas he should haue sayd that as the supper being the sacrament of y body of Christe is after a sort the body of Christ so baptisme being a sacrament of the bloud of Christ is after a sort the bloud of Christ for faith is not the subiect of baptisme as the body and bloud of Christ is the matter of the supper Yet I say that S. Augustine hath no one word to approue thys abuse of answearing in the childes name in hys person but goeth about to establish an other abuse whych was that it was lawfull for those that presented the childe to say that it beleeued So that it is lyke that the minyster dyd aske those whych presented the infant whether they thought that it was faithfull and dyd beleeue and those whych presented it sayd it was so wherevpon thys question rose whether it was lawfull to say that the childe beleeued In the. 191. and. 192. pages he speaketh of thys agayne but he doth nothing els but repeat in both places that whych is here only he sayth that it is a mocking of God to vse the place of the Galathians God is not mocked against
hell so to vpholde the archbishop the necke of it whereupon that Romishe monster standeth are raised vp from hell bastardes Clemens and Anacletus and in deede as it may appeare the very naturall sonnes of Sathan and the sworne souldiers of Antichrist A man would haue thought that the bishop of Salisburie master Iuell had so pulled of the painting of the face of this Clement that all good men would haue had him in detestation so farre of would they haue bene to haue alledged out of him to proue any thing that is in controuersie The bishop alledgeth both Eusebius and S. Ierome to proue that none of those workes which goe in his name are his And although the proufes bee strong which the bishop vseth being the witnes of vnsuspected witnesses yet because the law although it allow two witnesses notwithstanding doth like better of three I will set downe heere also Ireneus which was a great while before them both and followed hard after the times of the true and vncounterfaite Clement and therefore could best tell of him and of hys writings yet * he maketh mention but of one Epistle which vpon occasion amongst the Corinthians he wrote to them In deede in another place of that booke he sheweth that it is very probable that Clement also eyther wrote or turned the Epistle to the Hebrewes Now if that Epistle to the Corinthes were extante we shoulde easely set by comparing those that are now in hys name with that what a my shapen thing this is And if so be that Ireneus coniecture be good that Clement was the author or interpreter of the Epistle to the Hebrues then what horrible iniurie is done to the holy ghost whyle the same is supposed the wryter of thys booke to the Hebrewes which is the author of suche beggery as thys Clement brought into the worlde And I pray you doe you holde that it is the true christyan relygion whyche that booke contayneth Coulde none of these consyderations driue you from the testimonie of thys Clement it goeth very harde wyth the archbyshop when these Clementes and Anacletusses must be brought to vnderproppe hym But what if there be no such booke as thys is which you name when you say in hys booke intituled compendiariuÌ„ religionis christianae it is like you know not him nor what he sayth when you can not tell so much as his name Only because Polidore wryteth that Clement sayth this in a certayne short summary booke of christian relygion you haue set downe that he wryteth thus in a booke intituled compendiarium christianae religionis where there is no such title neyther in the councels where hys Epistles are neyther yet in all other hys works Thought you to disguise hym with thys new name of the booke that hee shoulde not be knowne â—or ment you to occupy your answerer in seeking of a booke which because he shoulde neuer fynde he should neuer answer The place which Polidore meaneth is in the first epistle which he wryteth vnto Iames the brother of the Lord which is as the rest are both rediculous in the manner of wryting in the matter oftner tymes wycked blasphemous which I speake to thys ende that the reader through the commendation that M. Doctor hath geuen to thys Clement in taking hym as one of hys wytnesses in so great a matter be not abused For answere vnto hym although he be not worth the answering I say that first it may be well sayde heere of the office of the Archbyshop that the father of it was an Amorite and mother a Hittite that is that it commeth of very infamous parentage the beginning therof being of the idolatrous nations And whereas Clement maketh S. Peter the Apostle to make it as it were hys adopted sonne thereby to wipe away the shame of hys birth it doth S. Peter shamefull iniury For besides that it was farre from S. Peter to take thys authoritie to hym selfe not only of making archbyshops through out euery prouince but also instituting a new order or office without the councell of the rest of the apostles which none else of the apostles dyd and which is contrary to the practise of S. Peter both in the first and sixt of the Actes contrary also to the practises of the apostles which after shall appeare I say besides thys is it lyke that S Peter would grasse the noblest plant as it is sayde of the mynisterie of the gospell in such a rotten stocke of that which was most abhominable in all idolarrie for the greater they were in the seruice of the idolles the more detestable were they before God. The Lorde when he woulde geuelawes of worshipping vnto hys people in the things that were indifferent of shauing cutting and apparell wearing sayth to his people that they shoulde not doe so and so because the Gentiles dyd so yea euen in those things the vse whereof was otherwise very profitable and incommodious to forbeare he would haue theÌ„ notwithstanding to abstaine from as from swines flesh conneys c. to the end that hee might haue them seuered as appeareth in S. Paule by a great and high wall from other nations And therefore it is very vnlike that S. Peter would frame the ministerie of the gospell which is no ceremonie but of the substance of the gospell by the example of the heathenish and idolatrous functions If one had sayde that the Lord had shapen hys common wealth by the paterne of other common wealthes although it had bene most vntrue all other flourishing common wealthes of Athens Lacedemon Rome borowing their good lawes of the Lordes common wealth yet had it bene more tollerable but to say he framed the ministery of the gospell by the priesthode of idolatrie is to fetch chastitie out of Sodome and to seeke for heauen in hell And if so be that the Lord had delighted in thys hierarchie he would rather haue taken of hys owne then borowed of others of hys owne church then of the sinagogue of Sathan For vnder the law besides the Leuites there were priestes and aboue them a high priest And to say that Peter appoynted archbyshoppes and byshoppes by the example of the idolaters is after a sort to make the law to come out of Egypt or Babylon and not out of Sion or Ierusalem as the Prophet sayth You say after that Iames was an archbyshop if he were he was the first and placed ouer the Iewes And although S. Peter might to gaine the Gentiles he content to vse their idolatrous functions with a little chaunge of their names yet there is none so mad to thinke that he would translate any such function from the Gentiles vnto the Iewes whych were neuer before accustomed with any such Flamines or Archiflamines And thys I dare generally and at once say against you and your Clement that the Lord translated diuers things out of the Law into the Gospell as the Presbytery or
A REPLYE TO AN answere made of M. Doctor VVhitegifre AGAINSTE THE ADMONITION to the Parliament By T. C. ISAIE 61. ver 1. For Syons sake I will not holde my tonge and for Ierusalems sake I will not rest vntill the righteousnes therof breake forthe as the lighte and the saluation thereof be as a burning lampâ— Ver. 6. 7. Ye that are the Lordes remembrancers keepe not silence and geue hym no rest vntill he repayre and set vp Ierusalem the prayse of the world The Printer to the Reader SOme perhaps will maruel at the newe impression of thys boke and so muche the more will they wonder because they shall see that with great confidence boldnes notwythstanding our most gracious Princes late published proclamation procured rather by the Byshops then willingly sought for by her maiestie whose mildnes is such that she were easyer led to yelde to the proclamation of the highest then drawne to proclaime any thing against hym were it not for the subtil perswasions and wicked dealings of thys horned generation as by their false doctrine and cruell practises is to bee seene and by the speciall motion of Gods spirite and hys protection it hath bene both attempted and ended But cease to muse good christian reader whosoeuer thou art and learne to know that no lawes were they neuer so hard and seuere can put out the force of Gods spirite in hys children nor any cruelty though it stretched it selfe so far as to sheding of bloud from which kynde of dealing the Byshops are not cleare as the Prysons in London the Gatehouse at Westminster c. can witnesse the Lord for geue them and vs our sinnes can discharge the sayntes and seruauntes of the Lord from going forwarde in that which is good For the profite therefore of the godly and their instruction haue we hazarded our selues and as it were cast our selues into suche daungers and troubles as shal be layed vpon vs if we come into the haÌ„ds of the persecuting Bishops From the which pray the Lord if it be hys will to delyuer vs if not yet that it woulde please hym to geue vs both patience to beare what so euer he shall geue them power and lyberty to lay vpon vs and constancy also to contynue in hys truth and the profession thereof vnto our lyues end Farewell in the Lord and prayse God for thys worke I. S. Faultes escaped Page 2. line 14. for arme read army pa. 60. line 30. for thys spirite read hys spirite Page 39. line 41. for when read whom pa. 39. line 47. for against them read agaynst hym Page 26. line 37. for appose read oppose pa. 23. line 31. for ioipon read loipon and for proegoron read proegoros pa. 10. li. 41. for kairoutiche read kairou tyche pa. 69. for dioceris diocesis Page 9. line 16. put a comma at speache and a full poynt at vse Page 106. line 12. for to breake read doe breake Page 118. line 31. in the ende therof adde whych thyng also M. Doctor graunteth Page 127. line 6. for I beleue read I wil beleue page 127. line 8. For the apostles read For the false Apostles page 129. line 51. for and more in the read and more to in the. Page 130. line 41. for sole meditation read sole mediation page 137. line 49. for and that it is read and it is page 138. line 4. for ingenium read ingenuum page 138. line 14. for necessary read necessarily page 141. line 15. for there is greater read there is a greater Page 142. line 32. for and other read an other page 144. line 7. for herevpon read herevnto Page 144. line 51. for celebrating in one kinde read celebrating it in one kinde Page 146. line 18. for the other vsed in the other vsed only in pa. 160. li. 23. for tute read true Page 163. line 43. for there were many read there were very many page 174. line 3. for Ambose read Ambrose page 188. line 29. for in England or in Ireland read and in England Page 189. line 8. for vicarse read vicares page 1â—8 in the margent for Concil Valense reade Concil Vasense page 201. in the margent adde to that of August lib. 2. de consolatione mortuorum cap. 5. page 207. line 42. read for catexochen read cathexochen Page 205. line 21. for possessed read dysposesssed Page 210. line 46. and other thyngs and do other thyngs pa. 214. li. 15. for iabon read labon Page 215. line 20. for or so much deceyued of read or so much as deceiued A short Table of the princypall poyntes entreated of in thys boke made according to the order of the Alphabet A  M. Doctors Anacletus counterfait 92. M. Doctors Anicetus counterfait 92. There are now no Apostles 63. The churche was established in the Apostles tymes 51. Apostles appoynted no archbyshoppes but byshoppes 92. Corruptions entred into the church immediatly after the times of the apostles 96. Apparell of the mynisters 71. c. Apparell of mourners is either hypocriticall or els daungerous to prouoke excessiue sorrow 201. Archbyshops archdeacons names vnlawfull 82. c. Archbyshops names are not so auncient as they be supposed 88. c. Archbyshops and archdeacons offyces vnlawfull 83. c. Archbishops offices as they were in times past haue now no place with vs and of the small prerogatiue which they had then aboue other byshops 122. c. Archbyshops not spoken of by Cyprian nor bishops such as oures is but of S. Paules bishops 98. c. Archdeacons in times past how much they differed from oures now 96. Arguments of authority negatiuely or affirmatiuely out of the scripture good the vse of theÌ„ when they be drawne from men 25. B  QuestioÌ„s about Baptisme answered 172. c. QuestioÌ„s ministred to infaÌ„ts in Baptisme 169 Crossing in Baptisme wherof it rose 170. c Basile a poore Metropolitane 94. Byshops in tymes past most vnlike oure byshops now 106. c. General faults of the Boke of coÌ„mon prayer 131. Prescript forme of prayer at Burials inconuenient 200. Les lamenting the dead and les charges about Burials permitted vnto vs then to those vnder the law 200. c. Buryall sermons inconuenient 201. c. Buryall places where they were in the olde churches 69. C  Cathedral churches in times past those which are now greatly differ 204. Cathedral churches rightly called dens do hurt the good which they might do if they were conuerted into colledges or houses of study 205. â— â–ª Ceremonies must be tried by rules in the scripture and by which 27. Ceremonies making in the church belongeth vnto Ecclesiasticall persons 192. Difference betwene placing Ceremonies in the church which were not besâ—â—e tollerating those which are already placed 25. Chauncelers iurisdiction vnlawfull 188. c. Church hath not power to ordayne whether preaching or ministring of the sacramentes shal be priuate or publike 28. Church must not be framed vnto the common wealth but the
most effectuall and to geue as it were a sharper edge vnto the preaching of the word as also to be a wall to keepe it and make it contynue among vs I see there be sondry lettes which doe as it were with weapons stande vp to stoppe the passage and to hynder that it should not be setled amongst vs With the which albeit I wrastle hande to hande in thys booke yet for as much as we haue all dronke so deepe of the cuppe of vntruth that we do not only stumble at blockes which other men lay in our way but oftentymes we gather lettes vnto our selues in framyng a preiudice agaynst the truth I thought good to note shortly what those stumbling blockes are and although I can not remoue them yet to geue warning of them and to lende my hand to the weaker and simpler sort to helpe to ouerstride them The offences which are taken herein be eyther in respect of the cause or in respect of those which seeke to defend and promote the cause The cause is charged first with newnes and strangenes then as author of confusion and of disorder and last of all as enemy to princes magistrates and common wealthes For the first besides that it is no sufficient chalenge to say it is new strange there is no cause why it should be counted new which is confessed of those which mislyke it to haue bene for the most part vsed in the Apostles tymes nor why it should be esteemed straunge which is vsed now farre and neare of thys that side the sea and of no strangers but of those which are of the housholde of fayth And it shall more largely appeare in thys Booke that thys is no innouation but a renouation and the doctrine not new but renued no stranger but borne in Sion whereunto it being before vniustly banyshed ought now of ryght to bee restored And of confusion dysorder it is yet more vntruely accused For iustice may be as well accused for doing wrong as thys doctryne for bringing in disorder whose whole worke is to prouyde that nothing be done out of place out of time or otherwise then the condytion of euery mans calling will beare which putteth the people in subiection vnder their gouernoures the gouernoures in degree and order one vnder an other as the Elder vnderneath the Pastor and the Deacon vnderneath the Elder whych teacheth that a Particuler church shall giue place vnto a Prouinciall synode where many churches are and the Prouincial to a Nationall and likewyse that vnto the Generall if anye be and all vnto Christe and his worde When on the contrary parte those whych stand against thys doctrine are thereby compelled to bryng into the church great confusion and maruellous disorder whilest the pastors office is confounded wyth the deacons whilest women do minister the sacraments whych is lawful only for men whilest priuate men do that whych belongeth vnto publicke persons whilest publicke actions are done in priuate places whilest the church is shuffled wyth the common wealth whilest ciuill matters are handled by Ecclesiasticall persons and Ecclesiasticall by those whych be ciuill and to be short whilest no officer of the church keepeth his standing and one member doth take vpon it the office of an other Which things as they hazard the arme and destroy the body so they do presently hinder and will shortly if remeady be not prouided vtterly ouerthrowe the churche And therefore onles good order be in that whych was brought into the church by poperye and confusion in that whych was left vnto the church by the Apostles and that it be order that publike actions should be done in priuate places by priuate persons and by women that is appoynted to be done by men and confusion when the contrary is obserued and finally onles order haue an other definition or nature then hitherto hath bene read or heard of there is no cause why this doctrine which containeth the discipline and gouernment of the churche should be thus shamefully slaundered wyth confusion and disorder For the third poynt whych is that it is an enemy to magistrates and the common wealth if it be enough to accuse wythout proufe to say and shewe no reason innocency it selfe shall not be giltles Thys doctrine was in times past euen by their confession which wryte against it a friend vnto princes and magistrates when princes and magistrates were enemies vnto it and can it nowe be an enemy vnto princes and magistrates whych are frendes vnto it It helped and vpholded the common wealths whych were gouerned by tyrantes and can it hinder those whych are gouerned by godly princes And in what is it an ennemy to princes and magistrates Note the variance set downe the enemitie If the question be whether princes and magistrates be necessary in the church it holdeth that the vse of them is more then of the sunne wythout the whych the world cā not stand I fit be of their honor it holdeth that wyth humble subnussion of minde the outward also of the body yea the body it selfe and all that it hath if nede so require are to be yelded for the defence of the prince and for that seruice for the whych the prince will vse them vnto for the glory of God and maintenance of the common wealth If it be asked of the obedience due vnto the prince and vnto the magistrate it answeareth that all obedience in the Lord is to be rendred and if it come to passe that any other be asked it so refuseth that it disobayeth not in preferring obedience to the great God before that whych is to be geuen to mortall man It so resisteth that it submitteth the body and goodes of those that professe it to abide that whych God will haue them suffer in that case And if it be shewed that this is necessary for the church it can not be but profitable for the common wealth nay the profit of it may easly appeare for that by the censures and discipline of the church as they are in thys booke described men are kept back from committing of great disorders of stealing adultry murder c. whilest the smallest faultes of lying and vncomely iesting of harde and cholericke speaches whych the magistrate doth not commonly punishe be corrected And vndoubtedly seeing that the church common wealth do embrace and kisse one an other and seeing they be like vnto Hypocrates twinnes whych were sicke togither and well togither laughed togither and weeped togither and alwayes like affected it can not be but that the breaches of the common wealth haue proceeded from the hurtes of the church and the wants of the one from the lackes of the other Neyther is it to be hoped for that the common wealth shall flourishe vntill the church be reformed And it is also certaine that as the church shall euery day more and more decay vntill it be made eauen wyth the ground onles the walles be builded and the ruines
that S. Paul meaneth there a full plerophorian and perswasion that that which he doth is well done I graunt it But from whence can that spring but from fayth and how can we perswade and assure our selues that we do well but whereas we haue the word of God for our warrant so that the Apostle by a metonimie Subiecti pro adiuncto doth geue to vnderstād from whence the assured persuasion doth spring Whereupon it falleth out the forasmuch as in all our actions both publyke priuate we ought to follow the direction of the word of God in matters of the church and which concerne all there may be nothing done but by the word of god Not that we say as you charge vs in these words that no ceremonie c. may be in the church except the same be expressed in the word of God but that in making orders and ceremonies of the church it is not lawfull to doe what men list but they are bound to follow the generall rules of the scripture that are geuen to be the squire whereby those should be squared out Which rules I will here set downe as those which I would haue as well al orders ceremonies of the church framed by as by the which I wil be content that all those orders ceremonies which are now in question whether they be good conuenient or no should be tried examined by And they are those rules which Paule gaue in such cases as are not particularly mētioned of in scripture The first that they offend not any especially the Church of God. The second is that which you cite also out of Paul that all be done in order and comclynes The thirde that all be done to edifying The last that they be done to the glory of God. So that you see that those things which you recken vp of the houre time day of prayer c. albeit they be not specified in the scripture yet they are not left to any to order at their pleasure or so that they be not agaynst the worde of God but euen by and according to the word of God they must be established and those alone to be taken which do agree best and nearest with these rules before recited And so it is brought to passe which you thinke a great absurdity that al things in the church should be appoynted according to the word of god Wherby it likewise appeareth that we deny not but certayne things are left to the order of the church because they are of the nature of those which are varyed by times places persons other circumstances so could not at once be set down established for euer yet so left to the order of the church as that it do nothing agaynst the rules aforsayde But how doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the church therfore to make a new ministerie by making an Archbishop to alter the ministerie the is appointed by making a bishop or pastor without a church or flock to make a deacon without appointing him his church wherof he is a deacon wher he might exercise his charge of prouiding for the pore to abrogate cleane both name office of the elder with other more how I say doth it follow the because the church hath power to order certaine things therfore it hath power to do so of these which God hath ordayned and established of the which there is no tyme nor place nor person nor any other circumstance which can cause any alteration or chaunge Which thing shall better appeare both in the discourse of the whole booke and especially there where you go about to shew certayne reasons why there should be other gouernmēt now then was in the tyme of the apostles But whyle you goe about to seme to say much rake vp a great nomber of thinges you haue made very euill mestin and you haue put in one thinges which are not paires nor matches Because I will not draw the reader willingly into more questions then are already put vppe I will not stand to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the resurrection of our sauiour Christ and so the day wherein the worlde was renued as the Iewes sabboth was the day wherein the world was finished and being in all the churches in the Apostles times as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no great iudgement to make it as arbytrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was your iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appoynted no discipline nor correction for suche as shall contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God VVhat churche discipline would you haue other then admonions reprehensions and if these will not profitte excommunication and are they not appoynted of our sauioure Christe There are also ciuill punishments and punishmentes of the body likewise appoynted by the word of God in diuers places in Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods and not to the Lorde alone shall dye the death And in Deutcronomie Thou shalt burne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may heare learne and not dare do the like The execution of thys law appeareth in the Chro. by king Aza who made a law that all those that did not seke the Lord shuld be kilde And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contēners of the word prayers There are other for such as neglect the worde which are according to the quantitie of the fault so that whether you meane ciuil or ecclesiasticall correction the scripture hath defined of them both I omit that there be examples of pulpits in Nehemias which the common translation calleth Ezra of chaires in S. Mathew where by the chaire of Moses our sauioure Christ meaning the doctrine of Moses doth also declare the manner which they vsed in teaching Of sitting at the communion which the Euangelist noteth to haue bene done of our Sauioure Christ with his disciples which examples are not to be lightly chaunged and vppon many occasions But this I can not omitte that you make it an indifferent thing to preache the word of God in churches or in houses that is to say priuately or publikely For what better interpretation can I haue then of your owne wordes which say by and by after of Baptisme that it is at the order of the church to make it priuate or publike For if it be in the power of the church to order that Baptisme may be ministred at the house of euery priuate person it is also in her power to ordayne that the worde be preached also priuately And then where is that which Salomon sayth that wysdom cryeth openly in the streates and at the corners of the stretes where
experience teacheth it you neede not make it so strange as though you knew not what they meant To the next section beginning in the. 38. page WHat ought to be generall if thys ought not to put the minister that hathe bene an idolater from hys mynisterie is it not a commaūdement of God and geuen not of one Leuite or two but of all those that went backe not at one tyme but at others also when the like occasion was geuen as appeareth in the booke of Kings where all the priestes of the Lord that had sacrificed in the high places were not suffered to come to the altare in Ierusalem Doth not S. Paul make smaller causes of deposing from the mynistery then idolatrie for after he hath described what manner of men the ministers should be and deacons he addeth And being tryed let them execute their functions as long as they remayne blamelesse I thinke if so be a man had bene knowne to be an adulterer although he repented him yet none that is well aduised would take him into the ministerie For if S. Paul reiect him that had ij wyues at once which was a thing that the Iewes and Gentiles thought lawfull and that was common amongst them and had preuayled throughout all the world how much les would he suffer any to be admitted to the ministerie which should be an adulterer and haue an other mans wyfe which is condemned of all that professe the name of Christ and which is not so generall a mischeefe as that was Or would he suffer him to abyde in the ministerie which should commit such wickednes during his function lykewyse of a murtherer Now the sinne of Idolatry is greater more detestable then any of them in as much as pertayning to the first table it immediatly stayneth Gods honor and breaketh duetie to him vnto whom we more owe it without all comparison then to any mortall man And if S. Paul in the choyse of the widow to attende vpon the sicke of the church which was the lowest office in the church requireth not only such a one as is at the time of the choise honest and holy but such a one as hath led her whole life in all good workes and with commendation how much more is that to be obserued in the minister or byshop of the church that he be not only at the tyme of his choyse but all other times before such a one as hath lyued without any notable and open offence of those amongst whome he had his conuersation If I should stand with you whether Peter his forswearing that he knew not Christ were a greater fault then to go from the gospell to idolatrie and there in for some long space to continue as the Leuites dyd I shoulde trouble you For if a man sodenly and at a push for feare and to saue his life say and sweare he is no christian and the same day repent him of hys fault although it be a great and haynous cryme yet it seemeth not to be so great as his is which not only denyeth Christ in words but doth it also in deedes and worshippeth Antichrist and continueth in that worship not a day but moneths and yeares But I wil answere you that euen as our sauiour Christ called S. Paule in the heate of his persecution whē he was a blasphemer vnto the Apostleship so he hauing the law in his owne handes and making no lawes for him selfe but for vs might call S. Peter also to that function which had thrise denyed him But as it is not lawfull for vs to follow the example of Christ in calling of Paul by admitting those which are new conuerted hauing a contrary precept geuen that no * new plant or greene christian should be taken to the mynisterie So is it not lawfull to follow that example of our sauiour Christ the contrary being commaunded as I haue before alledged For albeit the examples of our sauiour Christ be to be followed of vs yet if there be commaundementes generall to the contrary then we must know that it is our partes to walke in the broade and beaten way as it were the common caussie of the commaundement rather then an outpathe of the example I know Ambrose was taken newly from Paganisme to be bishop of Millaine for the great estimatiō credite he had amongst the people but besides that I haue shewed that suche thinges are vnlawfull being forbidden The errors and corrupt expounding of scriptures which are founde in his workes declare that it had bene more safe for the churche if by studie of the scriptures he hadde first bene a scholer of dyuinitie or euer he hadde beene made doctor There may be more examples shewed out of that which you call the prymitiue churche to the contrary of that which you say For when they vsed often tymes agaynste those that hadde so falne suche seueritie in deede extreme and excessiue that they were neuer after vntill their deathes admitted to the Lordes table I leaue to you to thinke whether they woulde then suffer any suche to execute the function of the ministerie Besides that S. Cyprian hath also a speciall treatise of thys that those that haue sacrificed to idolles should not be permitted any more to minister in the church But you aske what they say to M. Luther Bucer Crannier Latimer Ridley I pray you when dyd these excellent personages euer slide from the gospell vnto idolatrie which of them dyd euer say Masse after God had opened them the truth what hath so blynded you that you can not distinguishe and put a difference betweene one that hauing bene nousled from hys youthe vp in idolatrie commeth afterwardes out of it and betweene hym which hauing knowledge of the gospell afterward departeth from it and of such is the place of Ezechiel of such I say as haue gone backe and fallen away I know none that haue beene preachers of the gospell and after in the time of Queene Mary malsemongers which now are zealous godly learned preachers and if there be any suche I thincke for offence sake the Church might better be without them then haue them You say God in that place sheweth how greuous a sinne idolatrie is in the priestes especially And is it not now more greuous in the mynister of the gospell whose function is more precious and knowledge greater And if the sinne be greater should it haue now a lesse punishment then it had then how shall the fault be esteemed great or little but by the greatnes or smalnesse of the punishment you sayde before the places of Deuteronomie touching adding and diminishing nothing from that which the Lord commaundeth were for the Iewes and are not for our times And thys commaundement of God in Ezechiel you say serued for that time and not for oures You worke a sure way which to mayntayne your corruptions deny the scripture which speaketh agaynst them to be vnderstanded of those which be in our time
For if it be false as it is most false then there is no difference heere betwene the Apostles times and oures Doth not the whole course of the scriptures declare and hath it not bene proued that there was none that tooke vppon hym the ministerie in the churche but by lawfull calling what is thys but to cast dust and dirte of the fairest and beautifullest image that euer was to make a smokie disfigured euill proportioned image to seeme beautifull to ouerthrow the Apostles buildings of golde and siluer and precious stones to make a cottage of wode straw and stubble to haue some estymation which could haue none the other standing For in effecte so you doe when to vpholde a corrupte vse that came in by the tyrannie of the pope you goe about to discredite the orders and institutions which were vsed in the Apostles times and that with such manyfest vntruthes To the next section in the. 45. page Musculus also c. THe place is too common which you assigne you had I am sure the booke before you you might haue tolde where the place was and in what title But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate is answered by hym selfe in the same booke where he entreateth of the election of the ministers For going about as it seemeth to satisfie some of their ministers which were brought in doubt of their calling because they were not chosen by their churches speaking of the vse of the church in chusing their minister he sayth thus First it must be playnly cōfessed that the ministers were in times past chosen by consent of the people and ordayned and confirmed of the semores Secondarily that that forme of election was Apostolicall and lawfull Thirdly that it was conformable to the libertie of the churche and that thrusting the pastor vpon the church not being chosen of it doth agree to a church that is not free but subiect to bondage Fourthly that thys fourme of choise by the church maketh much bothe to that that the minister may gouerne hys flocke with a good conscience as also that the people may yeelde them selues to be eastyer ruled then when one commeth agaynst their willes vnto them And to conclude all these he sayeth that they are altogether certayne and such as can not be denyed After he sayth that the corrupt estate of the churche and religion driueth to alter this order and to call the election to certayne learned men which shoulde after be confirmed of the Prince And that it may yet more clearely appeare that hys iudgement is nothing lesse then to confirme thys election he setteth downe their election in Bernland which he approueth and laboureth to make good as one which although it doth not fully agree with the election of the prymitine churche yet commeth very neare vnto it As that not one man but all the ministers in the citie of Berne doe chuse a pastor when there is any place voyde Afterward he is sent to the Senate from the which if he be doubted of he is sent agayne to the ministers to be examined and then if they fynde him meete he is confirmed of the Senate which standeth of some number of the people and by the most part of their voyces By these things it appeareth that this election of the minister by the people is lawfull and Apostolike and confessed also by him that those that are otherwise bring with them subiection vnto the church and seruitude and cary a note and marke of corruption of religion Last of all that he goeth about to defende the election vsed in the churches where he was minister by this that it approched vnto the election in the primitiue Churche Nowe what cause there may bee that we should bring the church into bondage or take away that order wherby both the mynister may be better assured of hys calling and the people may the willinglyer submit them selues vnto their pastoures and gouernoures or what cause to depart from the Apostolike forme of the choise of the pastor being lawfull I confesse I know not and would be glad to learne To assigne the cause hereof vnto the christian magistrate to say that these things can not be had vnder hym as you vnder maister Muscuius name doe affirme is to doe great iniurie vnto the office of the magistrate which abridgeth not the liberty of the churche but defendeth it dimmisheth not the pastor his assurance of his calling but rather encreaseth it by establishing the ordinary callings only which in the time of persecution sometimes are not so ordinary withdraweth not the obediēce of the people from the pastor but vrgeth it where it is not constrayneth it wher it is not volūtary And seeing that also Musculus sayth that these forced elections are remedies for corruption of relygion and disordered states what greater dishonoure can there be done vnto the holye institution of God in the ciuile gouernoure then to say that these forced elections without the consent of the people must be where there is a christian Magistrate as thoughe there coulde be no pure religion vnder him when as in deede it may be easely vnder him pure which can hardly and with great daunger be pure without him And when as it is sayd that the churches consent should be had in the election of the minister we doe not denye the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill magistrate and the disanulling of them if the church in chusing and the ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man so that yet he doe not take away the libertie from the church of chusing a more conuenient man. So that you see that by Musculus your witnesse reasons this enforced election without the consent of the people is but corrupt and so ought not to be in the churche And that although it hath bene borne withall yet it must be spoken agaynst and the lawfull forme of election laboured for of all those that loue the truth and the sinceritie therof To the next section in the. 46. page NOw you would proue that thys election of ministers by one man was in the Apostles time But you haue forgotten your selfe which sayde a little before that this election by the church was not only in the Apostles times but also in the tyme of Cyprian now you say otherwise And if the election of the ministery by the church agree so wel with the time of persecution and when there is no christian Magistrate how commeth it to passe that in those dayes when persecution was so hotte and there were no such Magistrates that S. Paule would haue the election by one man and not by the church Besydes that if this be S. Paule hys commaundement that the byshop should only chuse the minister why doe you make it an indifferent thing and a thing in the power of the church to be varyed by times for this is a flarte commaundement Thus you see you throwe downe with one
and election are dyuers members of one whole which is the placing of the pastor in hys church and one member can not be verified of an other as you can not say your foote is your hand I will not deny but that sometimes these wordes maye bee founde confounded in Ecclesiasticall wryters but I will shewe you also that they are distinguished and that the election pertayneth to the people and ordayning vnto the Byshop Vpon the sixte of the Actes the glose hath that that which was done there of the xij Apostles in willing the brethren to loke out fitte men was done to geue vs example muste be obserued in those that are ordayned For sayth the glose the people must chuse and the Byshoppe must ordayne And that S. Ierome must be so vnderstanded it appeareth not only that it hath beene so expounded but also it may be casely proued for that S. Ieromes sentence and iudgement appeareth in other places that he woulde haue nothing heere done with out the people as in his Epistle ad Rusticum monachum he willeth that the people shoulde haue power and authoritie to chuse their clarkes and their ministers and in hys Epistle to Neopotian of the lyfe of the clarkes he hath thys distinction manifestly They runne sayth he vnto the Bishoppes suffragans certen times of the yeare and bringing some summe of money they are annoynted and ordayned being chosen of none and afterwarde the Bishoppe without any lawfull election is chosen in hugger mugger of the Canons or Prebendaries only without the knowledge of the people And so you see that although y S. Ierome sayeth that the Byshop had the ordayning of the ministers yet he had not the election for the ordayning was nothing else but an approuing of the election by putting on of handes and consequently hauing made your vaunt that all the learned fathers were of thys iudgement that the Bishop should elect the minister you shew not so much as one Now will I shewe you the cleane contrary of that you saye not that I gladlye trauaile thys wayes for if you had not constrayned me you shoulde not haue hearde one voyce thys way And woulde to God that you woulde be content especially when you meete with those that will be tryed by the scriptures to seeke no farther strengthe then they geue you But I am lothe you shoulde oppresse the truthe and make all men afrayde of it by making them beleeue that it is so desolate and forsaken of her frendes as you pretende You confesse S. Cyprian is agaynste you herein and he was a learned father and a Martyr also whych dyd not only vse thys forme of election but also taught it to be necessary and commaunded and therefore me thincketh you shoulde not haue sayde all the learned fathers without exception You see also S. Ierome is of an other iudgement S. Augustine also when hee speaketh how hee appoynted Eradius to succeede hym sheweth howe it was the approued right and custome that the whole church shoulde eyther chuse or consent of their Bishoppe And * Ambrose sayeth that that is truely and certaynely a diuine election to the office of a byshop which is made of the whole church Eregorius Nazianzene in the Oration which he had at the death of hys father hath diuers things which proue that the election of the minister pertayned to the Churche and confuteth those thinges which should seeme to hinder it These were learned fathers and yet thought not that the election of the pastor or byshop pertayned to one man alone but that the church had also hir interest therefore you see all the learned fathers are not of that mynde you say they are And that thys election continued in the churche vntill within a three hundred yeares at what time there was more then Egyptiacall and palpable darcknesse ouer the face of the whole earth it may appeare in a Treatise of Flaccus Illirâ—cus whiche he calleth an addition vnto hys booke that he entituleth the Catalogue of the witnesses of truthe of whome I confesse my selfe to haue bene muche holpen in thys matter of the choyse of the church touching the ministers especially in the Emperoures Edictes which are before cited For lacking opportunities diuers wayes I was contented somewhat to vse the collection to my commoditie for the more speedie furtheraunce and better proceeding in other matters which I will leaue of because they may be there red of those that be learned whome I will also referre to the sixe and seuen bookes of Eusebius wher both the formes of the electioÌ„s in those tymes are described wher besides that the customes of the peoples choise is set forth there are examples of the election of the people and cleargie which were confirmed by the christian Magistrate namely in the Byshop of Constantinople And these may suffice for the other that haue not that commoditie of bookes nor habilitie nor skill to reade them being in a straunge tongue to knowe that besides the institution of God in his worde thys manner of election dyd continue so long as there was any light of the knowledge of God in the churche of god I will adde only one place which if it be more bitter then the rest and cutte the quicke more neare you shall not bee angry with me but first with those that were the authors of it and then wyth him that wrote it Eusebius speaking of Origine which was admitted not of one Bishop but of many Byshoppes to teache sheweth how the Byshoppes were reprehended by the Byshoppe of Alexandria called Demetrius because they had admitted him without the election of the presbyterie of the churche which were the cheefe in the election in euery church and vnto the which the churches did committe the gouernment of them selues in euery seuerall towne and Citie sayth that it hath not beene hearde that laikous shoulde homilein paronton ton episcopon which is that the lay men should teach when the Byshoppes were present whereby it is euident that he counted hym a lay man which was only admitted by the Byshops although they were many not being first elected by the presbyterie of that church wherof he was the teacher Seing then that the scripture doth teache thys order that there shoulde be no minister thrust vppon the churche but by the consent thereof and reason perswadeth that wayes and the vse of the churche hath beene so from time to time both in peace and in time of persecution bothe vnder tyrantes and godly Princes it can not be without the highe displeasure of almightie God the great hurte and sore oppression of the churche that one man shoulde take thys vnto hym which pertayneth to so many or one minister which pertayneth to more then one especially where the aduise of learned ministers may concurre with the peoples election or consent Now if any man will rise vp and saye that this doctryne bringeth in disorder and by thys meanes children and boyes and
red more of him then you For I haue red ouer his boke of Martyrs and so I thinke did neuer you For if you had red so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue ben hasty to snatch at this place he would haue taught you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetch your authorities and would haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of metropolitanes bishops and other degrees whych you say sometimes had their beginnings in the apostles times somtimes you can not tell whē were not in Higinus time which was a. 180. yeres after Christ I perceiue you fear M. Foxe is an ennemy vnto your archbyshop and primate therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupt hym wyth hys praise and to seeke to drawe hym if it were possible vnto the archbyshop and if not yet at the least that he would be no ennemy if he would not nor could not be his frend You make me suspect that your praise is not harty but pretended because you do so often so bitterly speake against all those that will not receiue the cap and surplice and other ceremonies wherof M. Fox declareth his great misliking For answer vnto the place because I remēber it not nor meane not to read ouer the whole boke to seeke it I say first as I said before that there may be some thing before or after which may geue the solution to this place especially seeing M. Foxe in another place prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfet he vseth thys reason because the fifthe Canon of the sayd Epistles solemnely entreateth of the difference betwene primates metropolitanes and archbyshops whych distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauor more of ambition thē persecution Moreouer I say that M. Foxe wryting a story doth take greater paine and loketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what time and by whom then how iustly or vniustly how conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sincerity of the gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whych hath trauailed so much and so profitably to that end will not haue hys authority or name therin to bring any preiudice Now wil I also wyne with you and leaue it to the iudgement of the indifferent reader how well out of the scriptures councels wryters old and new you haue proued either the lawfulnes at all of the names of archbishops patriarches archdeacons primates or of the lawfulnes of the office of them and of byshops whych be in our times And for as much as I haue purposed to answer in one place that which is scattered in diuers I will heere answere halfe a shete of paper whych is annexed of late vnto thys boke put forthe in the name and vnder the credite of the B. of Salisbury Wherin I wil say nothyng of those byting sharpe words which are giuen partly in the beginning when he calleth the propounders of the proposition whych concerneth archbyshops and archdeacons nouices partly in the end when he calleth them children and the doctrine of the gospell wantonnes c. If he had liued for hys learning and grauitye and otherwyse good desertes of the church in defending the cause therof agaynst the papistes we coulde haue easely borne it at hys handes nowe he is deade and layde vp in peace it were agaynste all humanitye to dygge or to breake vp hys graue only I wil leaue it to the consideration of the reader vpon those things whych are alledged to iudge whether it be any wantonnes or noueltye whych is confirmed by so graue testimonyes of the auncient worde of god Vnto the place of the. 4. of the Ephesians before alledged he answeareth cleane contrary to that whych M. Doctor sayth that we haue nowe neyther Apostles nor Euangelists nor Prophets wherevppon he wold conclude that that place is no perfect paterne of the ministery in the church In deede it is true we haue not neyther is it nedefull that wee should It was therfore sufficient that there were once and for a time so that the wante of those nowe is no cause whye the minysteries there recited be not sufficient for the accomplyshment and full fynishing of the church nor cause whye anye other minysteries should be added besydes those whych are there recyted Afterward he saith that neither byshop nor elder are reckned in that place The pastor is there reckened vp and I haue shewed that the pastor and byshop are all one and are but dyuers names to signifye one thyng And as for those elders whych doe only gouerne they are made mention of in other places the apostles purpose being to recken vp here only those minysteries whych are conuersant in the worde as I haue before alledged and therefore the byshop and elder whych wyth gouernment teache also are there contained After that he sayeth there is no catechista if there be a pastor or as some thynke Doctor there is one whych bothe can and ought to instruct the youth neyther doth it pertayne to any other in the churche and publykely to teache the youth in the rudiments of religion then vnto eyther the pastor or doctor how so euer in some times and places they haue made a seuerall office of it And where he sayth that there is neyther deacon nor reader mentioned for the deacon I haue answeared that s Paul speaketh there only of those functiōs whych are occupyed both in teachyng and gouernyng the churches and therfore there was no place there to speake of a deacon and as for the reader it is no such office in the churche whych the minister may not doe And if eyther he haue not leysure or his strength and voyce wil not serue hym first to read some long time and afterwarde to preache it is an easye matter to appoynt some of the elders or deacons or some other graue man in the church to that purpose as it hathe bene practised in the churches in times past and is in the churches reformed in oure dayes without making any new order or office of the ministery Where he sayth that by thys reason we should haue no churches pulpits schooles nor vniuersities it is first easely answeared that S. Paule speaketh not in the. 4. to the Ephesians of all things necessary for the churche but only of all necessary ecclesiasticall functions whych do both teach gouerne in the church and then I haue already shewed that there were both churches and pulpits As for scholes and vniuersities it is sufficient commaundement of them in that it is commaunded that bothe the magistrates and pastors should be learned for he that commaundeth that they shoulde be learned commaundeth those things and those meanes wherby they may most conueniently come to that learning And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Testament As in the boke of the Iudges when Debora commendeth the vniuersity men and those
righteousnesse of the righteous from them An other reason he hath which is that the dignitie of the sacramentes doth not depende vpon the man whether he be mynister or no mynister good or euill In deede vpon thys poynt whether he be a good or an euill mynister it dependeth not but on thys poynt whether he be a mynister or no dependeth not only the dignitie but also the being of the sacrament so that I take the baptisme of women to be no more the holy sacrament of baptisme then I take any other daily or ordinary washing of the childe Neyther lette any man thincke that I haue at vnwares slipped into thys asseueration or that I haue forgotten that sone after the times of the Apostles it was the vse of certayne churches that deacons should baptise in the tyme of necessitie as they call it For as for the baptisme of deacons I holde it to be lawfull for because although as it is wyth vs they geue hym the name of deacon yet in deede he is as he then was in the elder tymes a mynister and not a deacon And although he dyd then prouide for the poore and so had two functions which was not meete yet hys office ought to be esteemed of the principall part of hys function which was preaching and mynistring of the Sacramentes in certen cases And as for the baptysing by lay men consydering that it is not only agaynst the word of God but also founded vpon a false grounde and vpon an imagined necessitie which is none in deede it moueth me nothing at all although it be very auncient for so much as the substance of the sacrament depended cheefely of the institution and worde of God which is the forme and as it were the life of the Sacrament of which institution thys is one and of the cheefe partes that it should be celebrated by a mynister For although part of the institution in that the name of the holy Trinitie is called vpon be obserued yet if the whole institution be not it is no more a Sacrament then the papistes communion was which celebrating in one kynde tooke a part of the institution and left the other And for so much as S. Paule sayeth that a man can not preach which is not sent no not although he speake the words of the scripture and interpreate them so I can not see how a man can baptise vnlesse that he be sent to that end although he poure water and rehearse the words which are to be rehearsed in the ministery of baptisme I know there be dyuers difficultyes in thys question and therefore I was lothe to enter into it but that the answearer setteth downe so confidently that it maketh no matter for the truth of baptisme whether he be mynister or no mynister and so whether one haue a calling or no calling Wherein notwithstanding he doth not only by hys often handling of one thing confounde hys reader but hym selfe also and forgetteth that he is in an other question then which is propounded For although it should be graunted hym that the sacrament doth not depende vpon that yet hath he not that which he would haue that women may baptise For it is one thing to say the baptisme which is mynistred by women is good and effectuall and an other thing to say that it is lawfull for women to mynister baptisme For there is no man doubteth but that the baptisme which is mynistred by an hereticall mynister is effectuall and yet I thincke that M. Doctor will not say that therefore an hereticall mynister may baptise and that it is lawfull for heretikes to baptise in the church And therfore men must not only take heede as M. Doctor sayth that they vsurpe not that which they are not called vnto but they must also take heede that they receyue not functions and charges vpon them whereof they are not capable although they be thereunto called In the 153. page M. Bucers censure vpon the communion booke is cited for the allowance of that it hath touching priuate baptisme and consequently of the baptisme by women It may be that as M. Bucer although otherwyse very learned hath other grose absurdities so he may haue that But it had bene for the credite of your cause if you had shewed that out of those wrytinges which are publyshed and known to be his and not out of those wherof men may doubt whether euer he wrote any suche or no and if hee wrote whether they be corrupted by those into whose handes they came And if you would take any aduantage of M. Bucers testimony considering y a witnesse is a publike person you should haue brought hym out of your study into the Stationers shop where he mought haue bene common to others as well as to you where by hys stile and maner of wryting as it were by hys gestures countenaunces by those things that go before and come after as it were by hys head hys feete we might the better know whether it were the true Bucer or no. For although I will not say but that thys may be Bucers doing yet it seemeth very straunge that Bucer should not only contrary to the learned wryters now but also contrary to all learned antiquity and contrary to the practise of the church whilest there was any tollerable estate alow of womens baptising Tertullian sayeth it is not permitted vnto a woman to speake in the churche nor to teache nor to baptise nor to do any worke of a man muche lesse of a mynister And in an other place although he do permit it to be done of lay men in the tyme of necessitie as it is termed yet he geueth not that lycence to the woman Epiphanius vpbraydeth Marcian that he suffred women to baptise and. in an other booke he derydeth them that they made women byshops and. in an other booke he sayth it was not graunted onto the holy mother of Christ to baptise her sonne Augustin although he were of that minde that children could not be saued without baptisme yet in the tyme of necessitie as it is called he doth not allow eyther of baptisme in priuate houses or by women but when there was daunger the women hasted to cary the children vnto the church and although he doe seeme to allow of the baptisme of a lay man in the tyme of necessitie yet there also he mentioneth not womens baptisme and further he doubteth whether the childe should be baptised agayne which was baptised by a lay man And in the fourth councel of Carthage it is simply without exception decreed y a woman ought not to baptise The authors of the Admonition obiect that necessitie of saluation is tyed to the sacramentes by thys meanes and that men are confirmed in that olde error that no man can be saued with out baptisme which in deede is true For must it not bee thought to be done of necessitie and vpon great
God as also as S. Paule teacheth a declaration and profession that wee are at one with oure brethren so that it is fyrst a sacrament of the knitting of all the body generally and of euery member particularly with the heade and then of the members of the body one with an other Now therefore seeing that euery particular church and body of Gods people is a representation and as it were a liuely portraiture of the whole church and body of Christ it followeth that that which we can not doe with all the church scattered throughout the whole world for the distances of places whereby we are seuered we ought to doe with that church whereunto God hath raunged vs as much as possibly or conueniently may be The departing therefore of the rest of the church from those three or fower is an open profession that they haue no communion fellowshippe nor vnitie with them that doe communicate and lykewise of those three or foure that they haue none with the rest that ioyne not them selues thereunto when as both by the many grapes making one cuppe and cornes making one loafe that whole church being many parsons are called as to the vnitie which they haue one with an other and altogether amongst them selues so to the declaration and profession of it by receiuing one with an other and altogether amongst them selues And as if so be that we do not celebrate as we may possibly and conueniently the supper of the Lord we thereby vtter our want of loue towardes the Lord which hath redeemed vs so if we doe not communicate together with the churche so farre forth as we may do conueniently we betray the want of our loue that we haue one towardes an other And therefore S. Paul dryuing heereunto willeth that one shoulde tary for an other reprehending that when one preuenteth and commeth before an other saying that that is to take euery man hys owne supper and not to celebrate the Lords supper Not that so many men or women as there came so many tables were for that had not bene possible in so great assemblyes but that they sorted them selues into certayne companyes and that they came scattering one after an other and that in stead of making one supper of the Lord they dyd make dyuers These things being considered the reason which the Admonition vseth in the 185. page where thys matter is spoken of which is drinke you all of thys is not so rydiculous as M. Doctor maketh it For although that it doe neyther proue that 12. or 20. or any other definite number must of necessitie receyue yet it proueth that as all they which were present dyd communicate And so as many as in the church are fit to receiue the sacraments or may conueniently receiue them together shoulde follow that example in celebrating the supper together And it is probably to be thought that if our sauiour Christ had not bene restrayned by the law of God touching the passeouer vnto hys owne family and to as many onely as would serue to eate vppe a Lambe by them selues that he would haue celebrated hys supper amongst other of hys disciples and professoures of hys doctryne But for so muche as it was meete that hee shoulde celebrate hys supper there and then where and when hee dyd celebrate hys passeouer for the cause before by me alleaged it pleased hym to keepe hys first supper with the fewer for that the law of communication vnto the passeouer which was ioyned wyth the supper woulde not admit any greater number of communicants then was sufficient to eate vp the passeouer And althoughe it be cleare and playne that when it is sayde drincke ye all of thys and tary one for an other these sayinges are ment of that particulare congregation or assembly which assemble themselues together to be taught by one mouth of the mynister yet I haue therefore put thys caution as muche as may be possyble least any man shoulde cauill as though I would haue no communion vntill all the godly through the world should meete together Likewise I haue put thys caution as much as may be conueniently for although it be possible that a perticulare church may communicate at one table in one day and together yet maye the same be inconuenient for dyuers causes As if the number should be very great so that to haue them all communicate together it would require suche a long tyme as the tarying out of the whole action would hazarde eyther the lyfe or at least the health of dyuers there Agayne for as much as other some being at the churche it is meete that other should be at home vppon occasyon of infantes and suche lyke thinges as require the presence of some to tary at home In these cases and suche lyke the inconueniences doe delyuer vs from the gilte of vncharitablenes and forsaking the fellowship of the church for that wee doe not heere seuere oure selues but are by good and iust causes seuered which gilte wee shall neuer escape if beside suche necessarye causes wee pretende those that are not or hauing not so muche as a pretence yet notwythstanding seperate our selues as the dayly practise thorough out the church doth shew But it may be obiected that in thys poynt the booke of Common prayer is not in fault which doth not only not forbid that all the church should receiue together but also by a good godly exhortation moueth those that be present that they should not departe but communicate altogether It is true that it doth not forbid and that there is godly exhortation for that purpose but that I say is not enough for neither should it suffer that three or foure should haue a communion by them selues so many being in the church meete to receiue and to whom the supper of the Lord doth of right appertaine it ought to prouide that those whych woulde wythdrawe them selues shoulde be by Ecclesiasticall discipline at all times and now also vnder a godly Prince by ciuill punishment brought to communicate wyth their brethren And thys is the law of God and thys is now and hath bene heeretofore the practise of churches reformed All men vnderstand that the passeouer was a figure of the Lords supper and that there should be as straight bonds to binde men to celebrate the remembrance of our spirituall deliuerance as there was to remember the deliuerance out of Egipt But whosoeuer did not then communicate with the rest at that time when the passeouer was eaten was excommunicated as it may appeare in the boke of Numbers where he sayeth that whosoeuer did not communicate being cleane his soule should be cut off from amongst the people of god Therfore thys neglect or contempt rather of the Lordes supper ought to be punished wyth no les punishment especially when as after the church hath proceeded in that order whych our sauior Christ appoynteth of admonishing they be not sory for their fault and promise
amendement And that this was the custome of the churches it may appeare by the. 9. of those canons whych are fathered of the apostles wher it is decreed that all the faithfull that entred into the congregation and heard the scriptures red and dyd not tary out the prayers the holy Communion should be as those whych were causers of disorders in the church seperated from the church or as it is translated of an other depriued of the Communion Also in the councell of Braccara it was decreed that if any entring into the church of God heard the Scriptures and afterward of wantonnes or losenes wythdrewe hym selfe from the communion of the sacrament and so brake the rule of discipline in the reuerende sacraments should be put out of the church till such time as he had by good frutes declared hys repentaunce But heere also may rise an other doubt of the former wordes of Moses in the boke of Numbers for seing that he maketh thys exception if they be cleane it may be sayd that those that depart do not fele themselues mete to receiue and therfore depart the other .iij. or .iiij. or moe feele themselues meete and disposed for that purpose whervpon it may seeme that it is neither reason to compell those to come which feele not themselues meete nor to reiect them that feele that good disposition and preparation in themselues For answer whervnto we must vnderstand that the vncleannes whych Moyses speaketh of was such as men could not easely auoid and whervnto they might fall sometimes by necessary duety as by handling their dead whych they were by the rule of charitye bound to burye sometimes by touching at vnwares a deade body or by sitting in the place where some vncleane body had sitten or by touching such things whych the law iudged vncleane which thing cannot be alleaged in those that are now of the church For as many as be of it and wythall of suche discretion as are able to proue and examine themselues can haue no excuse at all if they may be at the church to withdraw themselues from the holy supper of the lord For if they will say that they be not meete it may be answered vnto them that it is their owne fault and further if they be not meete to receiue the holy sacrament of the supper they are not meete to heare the woord of God they are not meete to be partakers of the prayers of the church and if they be for one they are also for the other For with that boldnes and wyth that duetye or lawfulnes I speake of those whych are of the church and of discretion to examine themselues I say wyth what lawfulnes they may offer themselues to the prayers and to the hearing of the word of God they may also offer themselues vnto the Lordes supper And to whomsoeuer of thē the Lord wil communicate himselfe by preaching the word vnto the same he wil not refuse to communicate himselfe by receiuing of the sacramēts For whosoeuer is of Gods housholde and familye he neede not be afraide to come to the Lords table nor dout but that the Lord will fede him there and whatsoeuer he be that is a membre of the body of Christ may be assured that he receiueth life frō Christ the head as well by the arteries condints of the supper of the Lord as by the preaching of the word of god So that it must needes folow that the not receiuing of those whych depart out of the church whē there is any communion celebrated procedeth either of vaine and superstitious feare growing of grose ignorance of themselues and of the holy sacraments or else of an intollerable negligence or rather contempt of the whych neither the one nor the other shuld be either borne wyth or nourished either by permitting .iij. or .iiij. to communicate alone or els in letting them whych depart go so easely away with so great a fault whych ought to be seuerely punished And vpon thys either contempt or superstitious feare drawne from the papists Lenton preparation of 40. dayes eareshrift displing c. it commeth to pas that men receyuing the supper of the Lord but seldome when they fall sicke must haue the supper ministred vnto them in their houses whych otherwise being once euery weke receiued before should not brede any such vnquietnes in thē when they can not come to receiue it Although as I haue before shewed if they had neuer receiued it before yet that priuate receiuing were not at any hand to be suffered And thus hauing declared what I thinke to be faulty in the communion boke in thys poynt and the reasons why and wyth all answeared to that whych eyther M. doctor alleageth in thys place of the. 80. and. 81. and likewise in the. 152. 185. pages touching thys matter I come now vnto that whych is called the Iewishe purifying by the admonition and by the seruice boke afore time the purification of women Now to the churching of women in the which title yet kept there seemeth to be hid a great part of the Iewish purification For lyke as in the old law shee that had brought forthe a childe was holden vncleane vntill suche time as shee came to the temple to shew her selfe after shee had brought forthe a man or a woman so thys terme of churching of her canseme to import nothing els thē a banishment as it were a certen excommunication from the church during the space that is betwene the time of her deliuery of her comming vnto y church For what doth els thys churching implie but a restoring her vnto y church whych cā not be without some bar or shutting forth presupposed It is also called the thanks giuing but the principall title whych is the directory of this part of the Liturgie placed in the top of the leafe as the whych the translator best liked of is churching of women To pas by the that it wil haue thē come as nigh the communion table as may be as they came before to y high altare because I had spoken once generally against such ceremonies y of all other is most Iewish approcheth nerest vnto the Iewish purification y she is commaūded to offer accustomed offrings Wherin besides that the very word offring caryeth with it a strong sent suspitiō of a sacrifice especially being vttered simply without any addition it can not be without danger that the boke maketh the custome of the popish church whych was so corrupt to be the rule measure of this offring And although the meaning of the boke is not the it shuld be any offring for sin yet this manner of speaking may be a stūbling stock in the way of y ignorant simple the wicked obstinate therby are confirmed hardned in their corruptions The best which can be answered in this case is the it is for the relief of the minister but thē it shuld be
constancy that all the rest of the day should be kept holy in such sorte as men should be debarred of their bodely labors and of exercising their daily vocations Nowe where as maister Doctor citeth Augustine and Ierome to proue that in the Churches in their times there were holy dayes kepte besydes the Lordes day he myght haue also cited Ignatius and Tertullian and Cyprian whych are of greater auncienty and would haue made more for the credit of hys cause seeing he measureth all hys truthe almoste throughe the whole booke by the croked measure and yarde of time For it is not to be denyed but thys keeping of holy dayes especially of the Easter and Pentecost are very auncient and that these holy dayes for the remembrance of Martyrs were vsed of long time But these abuses were no auncienter then other were groser also then thys was as I haue before declared and were easy further to be shewed if nede required And therefore I appeale from these examples to the scriptures and to the examples of the perfectest church that euer was whych was that in the apostles times And yet also I haue to say that the obseruation of those feastes first of all was much better then of later times For Socrates confessing that neyther our sauioure Christ nor the apostles dyd decree or institute any holy dayes or lay any yoke of bondage vppon the neckes of those whych came to the preaching addeth further that they did vse first to obserue the holy dayes by custom and that as euery man was disposed at home Whych thing if it had remained in that freedome that it was done by custome and not by commaundement at the will of euery one and not by constraint it had bene much better then it is nowe and had not drawne suche daungers vpon the posteritye as did after ensue and we haue the experience of As touching M. Bucers M. Bullingers Illiricus allowance of them if they meane such a celebration of them as that in those dayes the people may be assembled and those partes of the scriptures which concerne them whose remembrance is solemnised red and expounded and yet men not debarred after from their daily works it is so much the les matter if otherwise that good leaue they giue the churches to dissent from them in that poynt I do take it graunted vnto me being by the grace of God one of the churche Althoughe as touching M. Bullenger it is to be obserued since the time that he wrote that vppon the Romaines there are about .xxxv. yeares sythens whych time although he holde still that the feastes dedicated vnto the Lord as of the Natiuity Easter and Pentecost may be kept yet he denyeth flatly that it is lawfull to keepe holy the dayes of the apostles as it appeareth in the confession of the Tigurine church ioyned wyth others As for M. Caluine as the practise of hym and the church where he lyued was and is to admit no one holy day besides the Lords day so can it not be shewed out of any parte of hys workes as I thynke that he approued those holy dayes whych are nowe in question He sayeth in deede in hys Institution that he wil not condemne those churches whych vse them No more do we the church of Englande neyther in thys nor in other things whych are meere to be reformed For it is one thing to mislike another thyng to cōdemne and it is one thing to condemne some thing in the church and an other thing to condemn the church for it And as for the places cited out of the epistles to the Galathians and Collossians there is no mention of any holy dayes eyther to saintes or to any other And it appeareth also that he defendeth not other churches but the church of Geneua and answeareth not to those whych obiect against the keping of saintes dayes or any holy dayes as they are called besides the Lords day but against those whych would not haue the Lords day kept still as a day of rest from bodely labor as it may appeare both by hys place vpon the Collossians and especially in that whych is alleaged out of hys Institutions And that he meaneth nothing les then suche holy dayes as you take vpon you to defende it may appeare first in the place of the Colossians where he sayeth that the dayes of rest whych are vsed of them are vsed for pollicy sake Nowe it is well knowne that as it is pollicy and a way to preserue the estate of things and to keepe thē in a good continuance and succes that as well the beastes as the men whych labor sixe dayes should rest the seuenth so it tendeth to no pollicy nor wealth of the people or preseruation of good order that there should be so many dayes wherin men should cease from worke being a thyng whych breedeth idlenesse and consequently pouerty besides other disorders and vices whych alwayes goe in company wyth idlenes And in the place of hys Institutions he declareth hym selfe yet more plainly when he sayeth that those odde holy dayes then are wythout superstition when they be ordained only for the obseruing of discipline and order Whereby he geueth to vnderstand that he would haue them no further holy dayes then for the time whych is bestowed in the exercise of the discipline and order of the churche and that for the rest they shoulde be altogither as other dayes free to be laboured in And so it appeareth that the holy dayes ascribed to Saintes by the seruice booke is a iust cause why a man can not safely without exception subscribe vnto the seruice Nowe wheras maister Doctor sayeth it maketh no matter whether these things be taken out of the Portuis so they be good c. I haue proued first they are not good then if they were yet being not necessary abused horribly by the papistes other being as good and better then they ought not to remaine in the church And as for Ambrose saying all truthe of whome so euer it be sayde is of the holy ghoste it I were disposed to moue questions I coulde demaund of him whych careth not of whome he haue the truthe so he haue it what our sauioure Christe meant to refuse the testimony of Deuils when they gaue a cleare testimony that he was the sonne of God and the holy one and what S. Paule ment to be angry and to take it so greuously that the Pithonisse sayd he and his companion were the seruaunts of the high God whych preached vnto them the way of saluation Heere was truthe and yet reiected and I would knowe whether maister Doctor would say that these spake by the spirite of god Thus whilest wythout all iudgement he snatcheth heere a sentence and there another out of the Doctors and that of the worste as if a man should of purpose chuse oute the drosse and leaue the siluer wythin a while he wil make no great difference not
it is easely answeared both to the papistes and M. Doctor that for so much as the Apostle doth witnes that the churches of Corinth consysting of meÌ„ and women dyd receyue that therefore women also dyd receiue and were pertakers of the Lords table Thus it is manyfest that M. Doctor only to displease the authors of the Admonition sticketh not to pleasure iij. notable heretickes Anabaptists Catabaptists and Papists To the next section contayned in the. 96. and a peece of the. 97. page MAister Doctor asketh how it is proued that there was any examination of the communicantes After thys sorte all thinges necessarye were vsed in the churches of God in the Apostles times but examynation of those whose knowledge of the mistery of the gospell was not knowne or doubted of was a necessary thing therfore it was vsed in the churches of God which were in the Apostles tyme Then he sayeth he is sure there is neither commaundement nor example in all the scripture In the booke of the Chronicles he might haue red that the Leuites were there commaunded to prepare the people vnto the receyuing of the passeouer in place whereof we haue the Lordes supper Now examination being a part of the preparation it followeth that heere is coÌ„maundement of the examination And how holdeth thys argument S. Paule commaundeth that euery man should proue hym selfe Ergo there is no commaundement that the mynister should proue and examine them so I may say that euery man is a spirituall king to gouerne hym selfe therefore he may not be gouerned of others The authors of the Admonition doe not meane that euery one shoulde be examyned as those whose vnderstanding in the gospell is well knowen or which doe examyne them selues and so they interpreate them selues in the. 108. page To the next section in the 97. 98. and in a peece of the. 99. pages I Haue spoken of thys bread before in generall and if Maister Doctor dyd not disagree wyth hym selfe we are heere well agreed For first he sayth it skilleth not what bread we haue and by and by he sayth that he wysheth it were common bread and assigneth a great cause which the booke of seruice lykewise assigneth which is to auoyde superstition And it is certaynely known by experience that in dyuers places the ignoraunt people y haue beene mysled in popery haue knocked and kneeled vnto it and helde vp theyr handes whilest the mynister hath geuen it not those only which haue receyued it but those which haue bene in the churche and looked on I speake of that whiche I knowe and haue sene wyth my eyes An other reason is alleaged by Mayster Bucer which is that there being some thicker substance of breade and such as should moue and stirre vp the tast better the consyderation of the mynde which is conueyed by the senses might be also the more effectuall and so the fruite of receyuing greater By the way note that eyther Bucers censures vppon the booke of seruice be falsely ascribed vnto hym or be corrupted or else were not euen in hys owne tyme heere thought good substantiall and suffycient when there is some cause by Acte of Parliament afterwarde found I meane in the second booke of kyng Edward to mislyke wafer cakes and to chaunge them into common bread How so euer it be that circumstance would be well marked that it was one thyng to talke of a wafer cake in the vse of the supper in kyng Edward dayes before they were iustly abolyshed an other thyng now being reuoked after they were remoued Besides that we be called by the example of our sauioure Christe to vse in the supper vsuall and common bread for what time our sauioure Christ celebrated hys supper there was no other breade to be gotten but vnleauened breade there being a straight charge geuen by the lawe that there should be then no leauened bread And it is not to be doubted but that if there had bene then when he celebrated hys supper as at other times nothyng but leauened breade he woulde not haue caused vnleauened bread to haue bene made for that purpose of celebrating hys supper But thys is a grosse ouersyght of M. Doctor both in thys section and that whych goeth before that he hathe not learned to make a difference betwene that whych is not sincerely done and that whych is not at all done For in the former section he triumpheth vpon the admonition because they conclude that for as muche as there is no examination therefore it is not rightly and sincerely ministred For sayeth he the examination of the communicants is not of the substance of the sacrament and in thys section he sayeth that for as muche as it is not of the substance of the sacrament whether there be leauened or vnleauened bread therfore it is not sufficiently proued that the sacrament is not sincerely ministred But he ought to haue vnderstanded that if either the matter of the sacrament as bread and wine or the forme of it whych is the institution whych thyngs are only substantiall partes were wanting that then there should haue bene no sacrament ministred at all but they being retayned and yet other things vsed whych are not conuenient the Sacrament is ministred but not sincerely For example in the popishe baptisme there was the substance of baptisme but there being vsed spyttle and creame and candels and such beggerly trumpery it was not sincerely ministred therefore it is one thyng to minister sincerely and an other thyng to minister so that that whych is of the substance shoulde be wanting But of thys distinction I haue spokeÌ„ in an other place wherinto although M. doctor falleth in the next section and in other places yet thys shall be an answere for all The meaning of the Admonition in saying their God of the altar is plain enough that it is vnderstanded of the papists but that M. Doctor doth set him selfe to draw the authors of it into hatred and he can not be ignorant that when a man speaketh of thyngs whych are notoriously knowne he often vseth the or that or their wythout naming the thyngs whych he speaketh of To the next section contained in the. 99. and a peece of the. 100. page ALthough it be not of necessity that we shuld receyue the communion sitting yet there is the same cause of abolyshing kneeling that there is of remouing the wafer cake and if there be danger of superstition in one as M. Doctor confesseth why is there not danger in the other And if there be men that take occasion to fall at the one and that by superstition howe commeth it to passe that M. Doctor in the. 180. page sayeth that neyther gospeller nor papistes obstinate nor simple can superstitiously offend in this kneelyng when as the kneeling caryeth a greater shewe of worshyp and Imprinteth in the mindes of the ignorant a stronger opinion and a deeper print of adoration then the syght of a rounde â—ake And
thys abuse and hys reason is because s. Paule speaketh there agaynst those that by fained excuses seeke to defraud the pastor of hys lyuing as who should say s Paule dyd not conclude that particulare conclusion thou shalt not by friuolous excuses defraud the minister wyth thys general saying God is not mocked for hys reason is God is not mocked at all or in any matter therfore he is not mocked in thys Or as who should say because our sauioure Christ saying that it is not lawfull to seperate that which God hath ioyned speaking of diuorce it is not lawfull to vse thys sentence being a generall rule in other thyngs when as we know it is as well and properly vsed agaynst the papists whych seuer the cup from the breade as agaynst the Iewes whych put away their wiues for euery small and trifeling cause And as for thys questioning it can be little better termed then a very trifeling and toying For first of all children haue not nor can not haue any fayth hauing no vnderstanding of the word of God I will not deny but children haue the spirite of God whych worketh in them after a wonderful fashion But I deny that they can haue faith which cometh by hearing vnderstandyng whych is not in them Secondarily if children could haue fayth yet they that present the childe can not precisely tell whether that particulare chylde hath fayth or no and therfore can not so absolutely answere that it beleeueth Because it is comprehended in the couenaunt and is the chylde of faythfull parents or at the least of one of the parents there is warrant vnto the presenters to offer it vnto baptisme and to the minister for to baptise it And further we haue to thinke charitably and to hope that it is one of the church But it can be no more precisely sayd that it hath fayth thē it may be sayd precisely elected for in dede it is all one to say that it is elect and to say it beleueth and this I thinke the authors of the admonition do meane when they say that they require a promise of the Godfather whych is not in them to performe Thirdly if bothe those thyngs were true that is that infantes had fayth and that it myght be precisely sayd y it beleeueth yet ought not the minister demaund thys of the childe whom he knoweth can not answer hym nor those that answer for the childe ought to demaund to be baptised when they neyther meane nor may be being already baptised But it is meete that all thyngs should be done grauely simply and plainly in the church And so if those other two thyngs were lawfull it ought to be done as seemeth to haue bene done in S. Augustines times when the minister asked those that presented the infant and not the infant whether it were faythfull and those whych presented answeared in their owne persons and not in the childes that it was faythfull For Godfathers there is no controuersy betwene the admonition and M. doctors boke whych appeareth not only in their corrections but plainly in the 188. page where they declare that they rather condemne the abuse whylest it is vrged more then greater matters and whych are in deede necessary thys being a thyng arbitrarie and left to the discretion of the church and whilest there is so euil choyse for the moste parte of Godfathers whych is expressedly mentioned of the admonition and whilest it is vsed almost for nothyng else but as a meane for one frende to gratify an other wythout hauing any regarde to the solempne promyse made before God and the congregation of seeing the childe broughte vp in the nurture and feare of the lord For the thyng it selfe consydering that it is so generally receyued of all the churches they do not mislike of it As for fonts I haue spoken of before both particularly in general But wheras M. doctor sayeth in the apostles times they baptised in no basins but in riuers common waters I wold know whether there was a riuer or common water in Cornelius and in the iaylors houses where Paul and Peter baptised To proue crossing in baptisme M. Bucers authority is brought I haue sayd before what iniury it is to leaue the publyke workes of Bucer and to flye vnto the Apochryphas wherin also they might driue vs to vse the like and to set downe lykewise hys wordes whych we finde in hys priuate letters But it is first of all to be obserued of the reader howe wyth what name those notes are called whych are cited of M. Doctor for the defence of these corruptions They are called by M. Doctors owne confession censures which word signifyeth and implyeth as muche as corrections and controlments of the booke of seruice and therefore we may take thys for a generall rule throughout the whole boke of seruice that in whatsoeuer thyngs in controuersy M. Doctor doth not bring Bucers authority to confirme them that those thyngs Bucer mislyked of as for example in priuate baptisme and communions ministred in houses for interrogatories ministred vnto infants such lyke for so much as they are not confirmed here by M. Bucers iudgemēt it may be thought that he mislyked of them and no doubt if eyther M. Bucers notes had not eyther condemned or mislyked of diuers thyngs in the seruice boke we should haue had the notes printed and set forthe to the full thys I thought in a word to admonishe the reader of Vnto M. Bucers authority I could heere opposemen of as great authority yea the authoritye of all the reformed churches whych shall also be done afterward And if there were nothyng to oppose but the worde of God whych will haue the sacraments ministred simply and in that sincerity that they be left vnto vs it is enoughe to make all men to couer their faces and to be ashamed if that whych they shall speake be not agreeable to that simplicity The reasons whych Bucer bryngeth I will answer whych in thys matter of crossing are two First that it is auncient and so it is in deede For Tertullian maketh mention of thys vsage and if thys be sufficient to proue the goodnesse of it then there is no cause why we should mislyke of the other superstitions and corruptious whych were likewyse vsed in those tunes For the same Tertullian sheweth that they vsed also at baptisme to taste of miike and hony and not to washe all the weeke after they had ministred baptisme But heere I will note the cause whervpon I suppose thys vse of crossing came vp in the primitiue church wherby shal appeare how there is no cause now why it shuld be retained if there were any why it should be vsed in the primitiue church It is knowne to all that haue red the Ecclesiastical stories that the heathen dyd obiect to the Christians in times past in reproche that the God whych they beleued of was hanged vpon a crosse And they
is mentioned of one Theodotus who is sayd to haue seperated or excommunicated Apollinaris but it doth not appeare there that he alone of hys owne authority dyd excommunicate hym And there be great reasons in that Chapter to proue that he dyd it not of hys owne authority for immediatly after his heresy was knowne Damasus bishop of Rome and Peter bishop of Alexandria caused a sinode to be gathered at Rome where hys heresy was condemned Now for so much as the custome of synodes and councels is when they condenme the heresyes to excommunicate the heretickes it is to be thoughte that that councell dyd excommunicate hym and that Theodotus byshop of Laodicea dyd execute that decree and excommunication And in deede Sozomene doth so expound hym selfe when immediatly after he had sayde that he dyd excommunicate him he addeth acoinonetoh auton apophainei whych is that he declared him excommunicate whych in deede properly belongeth to the minister when the excommunication is decreed by those to whoÌ„ it appertaineth Whych thing may yet better appeare by the manner of speache whych is vsed in an other place where speaking of â—ictor excommunycating Theodotus he vttereth it by thys apekeryxe whych is to promulgate or pronounce the sentence whych was decreed by others As for Amb. although he be greatly commended for excommunicating the Emperor yet he was neuer commended for that he did excommunicate him himselfe alone and if he dyd excommunicate him himselfe alone yet hys fault was the les for so much as he being desirous of an eldershyp could not as it semeth by hys complaint which I haue spoken of before â—â—â—aine one And although the storyes doe not make mention y there were others whose authority came into thys excommunication yet it followeth not y there were no other And how often wil you stomble at that which you do so sharply reproue in others whych is in making of arguments of authority negatiuely And if you will not grauÌ„t thys manner of reasonyng in the scripture in matters pertaining to the gouernment of the church whych are all comprehended in the scripture how would you reason of a common story whych neither can nor dothe professe to speake all those things whych fall into that matter whych it wryteth of But what if so be it be proued that Ambrose did not this of hys owne authoritye but by the authoritye also of others will you then confesse that he is commended of all those whych wryte stories for so doing and confesse that the vse and practise of the primitiue church was far from thys that is nowe For proufe whereof I will geue you a place whych Ambrose the best wytnes of thys matter hath in one of his epistles wher he sheweth that assone as the murther whych Theodosius had caused to be done at the citye of Thessalonica was heard by and by the byshops of Fraunce came and there was holden a Synode where also Ambrose sayeth that hys communicating wyth Theodosius coulde not absolue hym for that as it myght appeare the byshops in that synode had in excommunicating hym ordained that he should not be absolued vntill suche tyme as he had done repentance whych he did afterward with confessyon of his faulte before the congregation and asking forgeuenes of it So it appeareth that that whych he did he did it by the sentence of the synode and not of hys owne authority alone In the. 220. 221. pages he speaketh of thys thing a fresh but hath no newe matter but maketh a bare rehersall of the places of the admonition asking after hys accustomed manner of confuting what maketh thys or what proueth that only wheras he sayd before and proued as he thought that the minister had only to do wyth excommunication being pressed there by the admonition either to defend or renounce hys Chauncellors c. he had rather deny bothe the truth and himselfe then he wold haue any of that horrible confusion and prophanation of the holy discipline of God brought in by popery threatnyng the ouerthrow of the whole church seruing for nothing but for the nourishing of the ambition and idlenes of a fewe driuen out of the church Of the whych I will vpon occasion speake a word if first I shewe that the vse of the auncyent church hath bene not to permit the excommunication to one but that the sentence therof should come from the gouernors and elders of the church vnto whome that dyd especially appertaine Although I can not passe by that which M. doctor sayth that for so much as the authors of the Admonition had alledged the words tell the church to proue the interest of the church in excommunication that therefore they could not vse the same to proue the interest of the pastor as who should saye that the pastor is not one of the church But of the absurdity of this I haue spoken sufficiently before and how all men do see the vanity of thys reason that because that people haue an interest by thys place therfore the pastor hath none But I come to shew the vse of the primitiue church in thys matter wherof we haue a manifest testimony in Tertullian If sayth he there be any whych hath committed suche a faulte that he is to be put away from the partakyng of the prayer of the church and from all holy matters or affaires there do beare rule or be presidents certaine of the most approued auncients or elders whych haue obtayned thys honor not by mony but by good report And that the auncients had the ordering of these things and the peoples consent was required and that if the case were a very difficult case it was referred vnto the synodes or councels and that the ministers dyd not take vpon them of their owne authority to excommunicate and that those whych dyd receiue the excommunicate wythout the knowledge consent of the churche were reprehended it may appeare almost in euery page of Cyprians Epistles and namely in these whych I haue noted in the margent In Augustines tyme it appeareth also that the consent of the church was required for in the third boke agaynst the epistle of Parmenian he sheweth that if the multitude of the church be not in that fault for which one is to be excommunicated that then it helpeth much to make the party both afrayde and ashamed that he be excommunicated or anathematised as he calleth it by all the churche and in hys bookes de Baptis contra Donatistas in diuers places he is so far from permitting the excommunication to one man that he semeth to fal into the other extremity whych is to make the estate of the church to populare and the people to haue too great a sway For there he sheweth that if the most of the people be infected wyth the fault whych is to be punyshed by excommunication that then no excommunication ought to be attempted for because a sufficient numbre of voyces will not be obtained
not worth the noting The Apostles dyd beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes addicted to the obseruation of the ceremoniall law yet they neuer alowed that infirmitie and they were so farre from approuing it by subscribing that they wrote agaynst it Those sayth M. D. which authorized thys booke were studious of peace and of building of Christes church therefore they that speake agaynst it which hee calleth defacing are disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church So I will reason Gedeon was studious of peace and of building of the churche therefore they whiche spake agaynst the Ephod which he made were disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church We speake agaynst images in churches and consubstantiation in the sacramentes and such lyke which Luther being studious of peace and of the building of the church dyd holde and yet we are not therfore disturbers of peace or destroyers of the church Although they were excellent personnages yet their knowledge was in part although they brought many things to our light yet they being sent out in the morning or euer the sunne of the gospell was rysen so hygh might ouersee many things which those that are not so sharpe of fight as they were may see for because that which they want in the sharpnes of sight they haue by the benefite and clearenesse of the sun and of the light They sealed not the booke of seruice with their bloud as M. Doctor sayeth for some that suffred for the truth declared openly theyr myslyking of certayne thinges in it and as for the other they coulde neuer dye for that booke more then for the lyturgie vsed in the Frenche churche or at Geneua For they receiued not the sentence of condemnation because they approued that booke but because they improued the articles drawne out of the masse booke And if they had dyed for that booke as in deede they dyed for the booke of God yet the authoritie of theyr martyrdome coulde not take away from vs thys lyberty that we haue to enquire of the cause of theyr death Iustin and Cyprian were godly martyrs yet a man may not say that they sealed their errors which they wrote with theyr bloud or with thys glory of their martyrdome preiudice those which speake or wryte agaynst their erroures for thys is to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of god For the papistes triumph I haue answeared before and I will not striue about the Goates wolle who is the opponent who the respondent in thys difference From the. 151. page vnto the. 171. page all is answeared where these things which are heere ioyned are seuerally handled now vnto that in the. 171. and. 172. pages I answere the although it be meete that as we hope that the homylies which are made already be godly so those that shall be made hereafter shall be lykewise yet considering the mutabilitie of men and that oftentymes to the worse it is not meete nay it is merely vnlawfull to subscribe to a blancke seeing that wee can not witnesse or allow of those things which we haue not sene nor heard The place vnto the Corinthes is the same vnto the Romanes and M. Doctor approuing one hath no cause to fynde fault with the other For the homylies first of all I haue shewed how absurde a saying and how vnlyke a dyuine it is to match reading of homylies with preaching of sermons For if the reading of the holy scriptures is nothing so fruitefull as the preaching of them muche lesse is the reading of homylies to be for their frute matched with preaching of sermons There remayneth that I shew briefely that neyther the homylies nor the Apochripha are at all to be red in the churche Wherein first it is good to consider the order which the Lorde kept with hys people in tymes past when he commaunded that no vessell nor no instrument eyther beesome or flesh hooke or pan c. shuld come into the temple but those only which were sanctifyed sette apart for that vse And in the booke of Numbers he will haue no other trumpets blowne to cal the people together but those only which were set apart for y purpose What should the meaning of thys law be The matter of other common vessels trumpets was the same oftentimes which theirs was the same forme also the other beesomes and hookes and trumpets hable to serue for the vses of sweeping and sounding c. as well as those of the temple and as those which were set aparte wherfore mought not these then as well be vsed in the temple as others Forsothe because the Lord would by these rudiments and pedagogie teache that he would haue nothing brought into the church but that which he had appoynted no not althoughe they seemed in the iudgement of men as good as those things which God him selfe had placed there Which thing is much more to be obserued in this matter seeing that the homilies red be they neuer so learned and pithye neyther the Apochrypha are to be compared either in goodnes within thēselues eyther in frute or in effect towardes the hearer wyth the authenticall scriptures of god Now if a man will say that the Homilies do explane lay open the scriptures I answer that the word of God also is plain and easy to be vnderstanded and such as giueth vnderstanding to idiotes to the simple And if there be hardnes in them yet the promise of the assistance of Gods spirite that God hath giuen to the reading of the scriptures in the church whych he hath not giuen to homilies or to the Apochrypha will be able to weigh wyth the hardnes and to ouercome it so that there shall easely appeare greater profit to come vnto the church by reading of the scriptures then by reading of homilies Besides thys the pollicy of the church of God in times past is to be folowed herein that for the expounding of darker places places of more easines ought to be ioyned together as in the persecutiō of Antiochus wher they could not haue the commodity of preaching the Iewes dyd appoynt at their meetings alwayes a peece of the law to be red with all a peece of the prophets whych expounded y peece of the lawe rather then to bring in interpretations of men to be red And because I am entred into that matter heere cometh to be considered the practise also of the church both before our sauior Christes comming and after that when the churches met together there is nothing mentioned but the reading of the scriptures for so is the Lyturgie described in the Actes And it is not to be thought but that they had those whych made expositiōs of the law and the prophets And besydes that they had Onkelos the Calday paraphrast bothe Galatine Rabby Moses surnamed Maymon write that Ionathan an nother of the Calday paraphrasts floryshed in oure sauyor Christes tyme whose
wrytings and paraphrases vpon the scryptures are estemed comparable in that kinde of paraphrasticall wryting wyth any whych hath laboured that wayes And if any mennes wrytings were to be red in the church those paraphrases whych in explanyng the scrypture go least from it and whych kepe not only the numbre of sentences but almost the very numbre of words were of all most fitte to be red in the churche Seeing therfore I say the church of God then abstained from such interpretations in the church and contented it selfe wyth the scryptures it can not be but a moste dangerous attempt to bryng any thyng into the church to be red besydes the word of god Thys practise continued still in the churches of God after the apostles times as may apeare by the second Apologie of Iustin Martyr which sheweth that theyr manner was to read in the church the monuments of the prophets and of the apostles and if they had red any thyng else it is to be supposed that he would haue set it downe consydering that hys purpose there is to shewe the whole order whych was vsed in their churches then The same may appear in the first Homilye of Oregine vpon Exodus and vpon the Iudges And as for M. Bucers authoritye I haue shewed before how it ought to be wayghed heere also it is suspitious for that it is sayd that hys aduise was when the lord should blesse the realme wyth moe learned preachers that then order should be taken to make more homilyes whych should be red in the church vnto the people As if M. Bucer dyd not know that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme whych were able to make homilies so many as the volume of them myght easely haue exceeded the volume of the Byble if the multytude of homilyes would haue done so much good And if the authority of M. Bucer beare so great a sway wyth M. Doctor that vpon hys credite only wythout eyther scripture or reason or examples of the Churches primitiue or those whych are now he dare thrust into the church homilies then the authorities of the most ancient best councels ought to haue ben considered whych haue geuen charge that nothyng should be red in the church but only the canonicall scriptures For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea the nothing shuld be red in the church but the canonicall bokes of the olde and newe testament and reckeneth vp what they be Afterward as corruptions grew in the church it was permitted that homilies myght be red by the deacon when the minister was sicke and coulde not preach and it was also in an other councel of Carthage permitted that the martyrs liues might be red in the church But besides the euill successe that those decrees had vnder pretence wherof the popishe legende and Gregories homilies c. crept in that vse and custome was controlled by other councels as may appeare by the coūcell of Colen albeit otherwyse popishe And truely if there were nothing else but thys consideration that the bringing in of the reading of Martyrs liues into the church and of the homilies of auncient wryters hath not only by thys meanes iustled with the Bible but also thrust it cleane out of the church or into a corner where it was not redde nor seene it ought to teach all men to beware of placing any wryting or worke of men in the church of God be they neuer so well learned as long as the world should endure And if any man obiect that by thys meanes also is shut out of the churche the forme of ordinary prayers to be sayd I say the case is nothing lyke for when we pray we can not vse the words of the scripture as they orderly lie in the text But for so muche as the churche prayeth for diuers thyngs necessarye for it the whych are not contained in one or two places of the scripture and that also there are some thyngs whych we haue neede of whereof there is no expresse prayer in the scripture it is needefull that there be a forme of Prayer drawne forthe out of the scrypture whych the church may vse when it meeteth as the occasyon of the time dothe require whych necessity can not be by no meanes alledged in the reading of Homilies or Apochrypha Wherevpon appeareth that it is not so wel ordained in the churche of Englande where bothe Homilies and Apochrypha are red especially when as diuers chapters of the bookes called Apocrypha are lyfted vp so high that they are sometime appoynted for extraordinary lessons vpon feastes dayes wherin the greatest assemblies be made and some of the chapters of the canonicall scripture as certen chapters of the Apocalipse quite left oute and not red at all Vnto the two next sections I haue answeared before where I haue entreated of holy dayes and of kneeling at the Communion it followeth to speake vnto the section contained in the. 183. and. 184. pages ALthough it will be hard for you to proue that thys worde priest commeth of the Greke word presbyteros yet that is not the matter but the case stādeth in thys that for so much as the common and vsuall speach of England is to note by the word priest not a minister of the gospel but a sacrificer which the minister of the gospell is not therefore we ought not to call the ministers of the gospell priests and that thys is the Englishe speache it appeareth by all the English translations whych translate alwayes hiereis whych were sacrificers priests and do not of the other syde for any that euer I red translate presbyteron a priest Seeing therfore a priest wyth vs and in our tonge dothe signifye both by the papistes iudgement in respect of their abhominable masse and also by the iudgement of the protestant in respect of the beasts whych were offered in the law a sacrificing office whych the minister of the gospell neyther dothe nor can execute it is manifest that it can not be wythout great offence so vsed The next three sections I haue before answeared wher I haue spoken of the abuses in baptisme crossing and interrogatories it foloweth to speake vnto the section contained in 194. 195. 196. pa. IF it be M. Bucers iudgement whych is alledged heere for the ring I see that sometimes Homere sleapeth For first of all I haue shewed that it is not lawfull to institute new signes and sacraments and then it is dangerous to doe it especially in this whych confirmeth the false and popyshe opinion of a sacrament as is alledged by the admonition And thirdly to make suche fonde allegories of the laying downe of the money of the roundnes of the ring and of the mystery of the fourth finger is let me speake it wyth hys good leaue very ridiculous and farre vnlike hym selfe And fourthly that he wil haue the minister to preach vpon these toyes surely it sauoreth not of the learning and sharpnes of the
to take vp any such custome in the tyme of the lawe it was not only not vsed but vtterly forbidden For when the law did forbyd that the priest should not be at the buryall which ought to say or conceiue the prayers there it is cleare y the Iewes might not haue any such prescript form And yet they had most nede of it for the causes of obscure knowledge weaker fayth before alledged Againe by thys meanes a newe charge is layd vpon the minister and a taking hym away from his necessary dueties of feeding and gouerning the flocke whych being so great as a maruellous diligence will scarcely ouercome oughte not to be made greater by thys being a thyng so vnnecessary The Admonition dothe not say that the Prayers whych are sayd are for the dead but that they maintaine an opinion of prayer for the deade in the heartes of the simple and that they declare manifestly enoughe when they say that it may be partly gathered c. For the mournyng apparell the admonition sayeth not simply it is euill because it is done of custome but proueth that it is hypocritical oftētimes for that it proceedeth not from any sadnes of minde whych it dothe pretende but worne only of custome there being vnder a mourning gowne of tentimes a mery heart And considering that where there is sorow in deede for the dead there it is very hard for a man to kepe a measure that he do not lament too much We ought not to vse those meanes whereby we myght be further prouoked to sorow and so go a great way beyonde the measure whych the apostle apoynteth in mournyng no more then it was well done of the Iewes in the gospell to prouoke weping sorowe for their deade by some dolfull noise or sounde of instrument or then it was lawfull for Mary Lazarus sister to goe to her brothers graue thereby to set the print of her sorow deper in her minde Seing therefore if there be no sorowe it is hypocritical to pretend it and if there be it is very dangerous to prouoke it or to cary the notes of remēbrance of it it appeareth that this vse of mourning apparel were much better layed away then kept And here M. doctor threps a litle kindnes of the authors of the admonition sayth that they know it is very ancient whom before he denyeth to haue any knowledge of antiquity In dede it is very ancient but M. doctor is afraid to shew the ancienty of it for Cyp. and Aug. inueigh vehemently agaynst it condemnyng it as vnlawfull and vndecent Nowe touching the funerall sermons M. doctor taketh on tryumpheth maruellously as though he had already gotten the victorye but he that girdeth hys harnes should not boast as he that putteth it of There is more matter then peraduenture M. doctor is aware of that whych is set downe he answeareth not as that it norysheth an opinion that the dead are the better for it whych doth appeare in the there are none more desirous of funerall sermons then the papists whych although they can not abide the doctrine whych is preached yet they wil haue suche sermons and those whych will very seldome or not at all be at other sermons will not commonly misse one of these Furthermore for so much as the minyster is driuen oftentimes by this meanes to preach vpon a sodaine the word of God therby is negligently handled especially of those whose gyftes are not so great as that they can prouide in so small time and by thys neglygent handlyng of the word of God it is brought into contempt Moreouer consydering that these funerall sermons are at the request of rych men and those whych are in authoritye and are very seldome at the buryall of the pore there is brought into the church contrary to the word of God an acceptation of persons which ought not to be For although the minister may giue to one more honor then to an other accordyng as the callyng or degree requireth yet in hys mynistery that whych pertaineth vnto hys office he ought to shew hymselfe indifferent and therfore preach as wel at the death of the pore as of the rych and because he can not well do both it is most conuenient to leaue both If so be that M. doctor wyl say that it is good that notable and famous men shuld haue their commendation to the ende that bothe the goodnes of God towardes them myght be the better knowne and others the soner drawne to followe theyr example I graunt it is so and the scrypture dothe bothe approue it and sheweth what meane is best to doe that by For so we read that Ieremy the prophet commended that godly and zealous prince Iosias in wryting verses of hys deathe He could haue as easely preached but thys he thought the best way So did also Dauid wryte verses at the death of Saul and Ionathan and Abner in whych he commendeth their gyfts and graces whych the Lord had bestowed vpon thē There were in deede of ancient time funerall orations as appeareth in Gregory Nazianzen but they sauoured of the manner of Athens where he was brought vp where also thys custome of funerall orations was vsed as may be seene in the second boke of Thucydydes story by an oration of Pericles And althoughe thys custome was not in Nazianzeus time so corrupt as afterwardes yet the departing from the examples of the purer churches gaue occasion of further corruption whych ensued And to say the truth it was better vsed amongst the Athenians then amongst the christians For there it was merely ciuill and the oration at the death of some notable personage made not by a minister but by an Orator appoynted therfore whych I thinke may well be done And if M. doctor will say that there myght be sermones although they be not mentioned neyther in the old testament nor in the new I haue answered before that seeing the holy ghost doth describe so dilygently the least circumstances of burial he would not haue omitted that being the greatest And let it be obserued that thys deuise of mannes braine bryngeth forth the same frute that other do the is dryueth quite away a necessary duety of the minister whych is to comfort wyth the worde of God the parties whych be greued at the death of their frends that consideryng the sore is perticular he apply vnto it a perticular plaister whych is very seldome or neuer done and yet a necessary duety as of a good christian so especially of the minister whych can best do it and to whome it most appertaineth And whereas M. doctor asketh when there is a better time to speake of death and of mortality then at buryall surely if it had ben so fit the Prophets and apostles would neuer haue lost that oportunity or let pas that occasion of aduancing and making effectuall their preaching What if it be answered that for as muche
reason can not stand wyth M. Doctors interpretation so doth it wel agree with the translation of the Geneua Bible For what could be more fitly sayd to driue the disciples from thys vain repetition then to say that the heauenly father knoweth c. and that it is not wyth the Lord as it is wyth men that muste haue a thyng oftentimes spoken or euer they can vnderstand it Furthermore what a reason is thys VVe must repeat the Lordes prayer oftentimes therfore we must repeate it oftentimes in halfe an houre and one in the necke of an other And if s Paules place to the Thessalonians pray continually be referred vnto the saying of the Lordes prayer as M. doctor would beare vs in hande then it is not lawfull for vs to vse any other words then those whych our sauyor Christ vsed But I could neuer yet learne that those wordes binde vs of necessity any more vnto the repetition of the Lordes prayer word for word then vnto the repetition of any other godly prayer in the scripture And I would be lothe to saye that it were simply necessary to vse that iust nombre of wordes and neyther more nor les at any time much les oftentimes in so small a space For our sauyor Christe doth not there geue a prescript forme of prayer whervnto he bindeth vs but geueth vs a rule and squire to frame all our prayers by as I haue before declared I knowe it is necessary to pray and to pray often I knowe also that in so fewe words it is impossible for any man to frame so pithy a prayer And I confes that the churche doth well in concluding theyr prayers wyth the Lordes prayer but I stande vpon thys that there is no necessitye layde vpon vs to vse these verye wordes and no more and especially that the place of S. Paule to the Thessalonians dothe least of all proue it As for M. Doctors outcryes he hathe so often worn our eares wyth them and that wythout cause that I thinke by this time no man regardeth them A short Replie vnto M. Doctors briefe answere whych he maketh to certaine godly Admonitions and Exhortations whych he calleth pamphletes VVHere the sayeth the authors of the admonition are not punyshed or theyr boke misliked for that it telleth of the faults in the church or of the synnes of men but for that it maintaineth false doctrine and for that they preferred a libell For the doctrine it appeareth by that whych is sayd what it is And if he wold define what a libell were it were easy to answere vnto the other poynt If he meane because it was preferred wythout any name vnto it howe will he answer vnto the example of the wryter of the Epistle vnto the Hebrues which was a singuler instrument and did not subscribe hys Epistle wherein notwithstanding he sharply rebuketh diuers faultes amongst them And yet the wryter to the Hebrues was not the minister of Sathan And if he call it a libel because it vseth some sharper speaches surely all men see that hys boke deserueth then to be called a Satyre hauing for tarte wordes bitter and for one twentie But in what respecte so euer he call it a libell he accuseth not so much the authors of the admonition for preferring of it as diuers of the honourable house of Parliament whych dyd alowe it Where as maister Doctor compareth vs wyth the Phariseis and sayeth we doe all to be seene of men and that we hold downe our heades in the streates and straine at a gnatte swalowing downe a Camell because they are in all mennes knowledge I will leaue it to them to iudge of the truthe of those thyngs Where he sayeth we seldome or neuer laughe it is not therefore that we thincke that it is not lawfull to laughe but that the considerations of the calamities of other churches and of the ruines of oures wyth the heauy iudgements of the Lord whych hang ouer vs ought to turne oure laughing into weeping besides that a man may laugh although he shew not his tethe And so Ierome in effecte answeareth in an epistle whych he wrote where vpon occasion that certaine vsed the same accusation that M. doctor doeth he sayeth because we do not laugh wyth open mouth therfore we are counted sad And where he sayeth we separate oure selues from all congregations and are enemies to Prince and that we wold seeme to be holyer then other these and such lyke slaunders are answeared before And if there be any that refuse to salute godly preachers or spitte in any mannes face or wishe the plague of God to lyght vpon them or say that they be damned we defende not nor allowe of anye suche behauyor And it is vnreasonable that the fault of one should be imputed to so many and to those whych do as much mislyke of it as M. doctor hymselfe And what needed M. Doctor to byd the authors of these exhortations to holde their handes where doe they in a word offer to strike belike hys tonge is hys owne and therfore he speaketh whatsoeuer he lysteth After M. Doctor confuteth hys owne shadowe For the exhortation doth not require that the name of a brother shuld deliuer the authors of the admonition from punishment if they deserued it but desireth that it myghte worke some moderation of the rigoure of it and compassion to minister to their necessities in prison He sayeth that the authors of the Admonition take not them for theyr brethren yes verely although vnbrotherly handled for fathers to and so both loue them and reuerence them vntil whych we hope wil not be they shall manifestly for the vpholding of their owne kingdome and profite refuse to haue Christe raigne ouer vs in whome thys fatherhoods and brotherhoode doth consiste I knowe not whether they haue bene conferred wyth or no but I thynke the first reason whych they had to perswade them was that they shoulde goe to Newgate whych is that which the Exhortation complaineth of after that they are first punished before they be taught And in thys behalfe M. doctor hath no cause to complaine as he doth For if he list he may learn or euer he go to prison And as for the truth of the cause and wresting and mangling of the scriptures in most places where they are sayd to mangle and wrest and how he hath answered the request of the exhortation whych is to confute the admonition by the scriptures how truely aptly learnedly M. doctor hath behaued himself in citing of the olde Councels Fathers I leaue it to be estemed partly of that which I haue sayd and partly by the deeper consideration of those which because they can better iudge may see further into M. Doctors faultes and rapsodies then I can Although the truth is that I haue because I woulde not make a long booke by heaping of one reprehension vpon an other contented my selfe rather to trip as it were and to passe ouer with
and grauitie that the order which the Apostle there vseth is still to be obserued M. Bucer of the kingdome of Christ in the. 1. booke and. 9. chap. sayeth that S. Paule accuseth the Corinthians for that the whole church dyd not cast out of their company the incestuous person 6. That Chauncelors Commissaries Officials c. vsurpe authority in the Church which belongeth not to them M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. boke 11. chap. 7. sect speaketh agaynst the office of Officials and alledgeth diuers reasons agaynst them as that they exercise that part of the Byshops charge and that they handle matters whiche pertayne not to the spirituall iurisdiction M. Beza in hys boke of Diuorces prouing that the iudiciall deciding of matrimonyall causes appertayneth vnto the cyuill magistrate sayeth that officials proctors and promoters and in a word all the swinish filth now of long time hath wasted the church Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. chap. to the Romaines speaking agaynst the ciuill iurisdiction of byshops doth by the same reason condemne it in their deputies the officials 7. That the mynisters of the worde ought not to exercise any ciuill offices and iurisdiction M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. boke 11. chap. 9. sect bringeth dyuers reasons to proue that byshops may neyther vsurpe nor take being geuen them eyther the right of the sword or the knowledge of ciuill causes M. Beza in hys Confessions chap. 5. sect 32. sayth that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction is to be distinguished from the ciuill and that although the byshops in the times of Christian Emperoures were troubled with the hearing of cyuill causes yet they dyd not that by any iudiciall power which they exercised but by a frendly entreaty of the parties which were at discorde and sayeth notwithstanding that herein the Emperors dyd geue too much to the ambytion of certayne byshoppes whereupon by little and by litle afterwarde all thinges were confounded And in the. 42. section sayeth that those corporall punyshmentes which the Apostles exercised were peculier and extraordinary Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. to the Romaines speaking of thys meeting of both Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in one man sayeth that when both the ciuill Ecclesiasticall functions do so meete that one hindreth the other so that he which exerciseth the one can not mynister the other M. Bucer vpon the. 5. of Mathew sayeth that there is no man so wise holy which is able to exercise both the ciuill the Ecclesiasticall power and that therfore he which will exercise the one must leaue the other 8. That the sacraments ought not to be priuately administred nor by women The forsayd confession .c. 20. holdeth that baptisme ought not to be mynistred by women or midwiues to the which also may be ioyned the Liturgy of the English church at Geneua which cōdemneth the mynistring of either of the sacraments in priuate houses or by women Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. chap. of the. 1. ep to the Corinthes in describing the corruptions of the Lordes supper noteth thys to be one that the church dyd not communicate altogether which corruption as it was in dyuers places in times past so he complayneth that it is now M. Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ and. 7. chap. proueth out of the. 10. to the Corinth that the whole church should receiue the supper of the Lord together and that the vse of the church of God in thys behalfe ought with great and dyligent endeuour to be restored vnto the churches that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called M. Beza agaynst Westphalus sheweth that it is not decent that baptisme be mynistred but in the church that at standing houres and by the mynisters and further that vppon no necessitie as it is called it ought to be mynistred in priuate houses And that if it might be mynistred in priuate houses yet no otherwyse then by mynisters M. Caluin in hys institutions 4. booke chap. 15. sect 20. 21. proueth that baptisme ought not to be mynistred by priuate men or by any women 9. The iudgement of those late wryters touching ceremonies and apparell whose secret Epistles M. Doctor alledgeth appeareth by these places folowing cited but of their workes Printed and published by them selues Wherof also some are alledged by the answerer to the examiner where are diuers other places to thys purpose wherunto I referre the Reader M. Bucer vpon the. 18. of Math. sayth that they say nothing which doe alwayes obiect that greater things must be vrged then the reformation of ceremonies therby defending the reliques of Antichrist forasmuch as ceremonies are testimonies of religion And that as there is no agreement betwene Christ and Belial so those which are sincere Christians can abyde nothing of Antichrist Peter Martyr vpon the .10 c. of the .2 booke of the kings sayeth that the Lutheranes must take heede least whilest they cut of many popishe errors they follow Iehu by retayning also many popish things For they defend still the reall presence in the breade of the supper and images and vestmentes c. and sayth that relygion must be wholy reformed to the quicke Bullinger in hys Decades 5. booke and. 9. sermon sayth that our sauior Christ the Apostles vsed their accustomed apparell in the supper and that although in times past the ministers put on a kynde of cloke vppon their common apparell yet that was done neither by the example of Christ nor of hys Apostles but by the tradition of man and that in the ende after the example of the priestes apparell in the olde law it was cast vpon the mynisters at the ministration of the supper But sayeth he we haue learned long agoe not only that all Leuiticall ceremonies are abrogated but also that they ought to bee brought agayne into the church of no man And therefore seing we are in the light of the gospell and not vnder the shadow of the law we doe worthely reiect that massing Leuiticall apparell Gualter vpon the. 21. of the Actes among others bringeth thys for one reason to improue Paules shauing of hys head for that the gospell had beene preached .xx. yeares and that therefore the infirmitie of the Iewes ought not to haue beene borne with And after hee sayeth that that teacheth how much the supersticious masters of ceremonyes hurte the gospell which nourishe the weakenes of fayth by the long keeping of ceremonyes and by their long bearing hynder the doinges of those mynisters which are more feruent FINIS Prouer. 8. 15. 2. Chap. 34. 60. chap. 12. 3. Deut. 25. 2. Samu. 7. 2. Psal 132. Esra 3. 3. 10. Agg. 1. 14. 2. kin 22. 23. 2. kin 18. 2. Chr. 17. 8 Chap. 17. 18 1. Cor. 1. 27. 28 2. Chro. 29. 34 2. Chr. 30. 17. 2. Kin. 5. 4. 14 1. Sam. 25. 18 1. Agg. 234. 1. Cor. 3. 12. 13 2. Cor. 6. 15. Cap. 2. 42. 43. Rom. 12. 18. 2. Cor. 10.
repaired so the weight of it if it fall will eyther quite pull downe the common wealth or leaue it suche as none whych feare God will take any pleasure in it For seing Salomon sayth the by wisdom whych is the word of God kings do gouerne and princes do beare rule it can not be but as the wisdome is either contemned neglected or otherwise abridged of hir free and full course so princes and magistrates and consequently their common wealthes either goe to wracke or decay or at the least want so much of their flourishing estate as there wanteth of that worde of God which he hath appoynted to be their stay And howsoeuer before the comming of our sauioure Christ amongst the Athenians Lacedemonians and Romanes and since hys comming in diuers places where thys wisedome hath not bene heard of there may seme to haue bene some shewes of either florishing or tollerable cōmon wealthes yet neither haue those endured but according to the prophesye of * Daniel haue bene broken all to peeces so that there is not so much of them left as a sheerde to fetche fire in neither yet can those kingdomes whych haue the knowledge of the gospel reuealed vnto them loke for that long suffering and pacience of God towardes them wherewith these ignorant kingdomes haue bene borne with For as the benefite is greater towardes these then towardes the other so is the iudgement swifter agaynste them then againste the other if that grace which was not offred vnto them being offered vnto these be refused and made light of And in these especially is shall be fulfilled that whych the Prophet * Esay sayeth that it shal be in the later dayes that euery nation and kingdom whych shall not serue the church shal be destroyed as of the other side the full and whole placing of our sauior Christ in his throne is the perpetuall stay and stayed perpetuitie of all princes in their seats And therfore if this boke shal come into the hands of any that haue accesse vnto her maiestie the head of this cōmon wealth or vnto her most honorable counsel the shoulders therof my hūble sute and hearty request in the presence of God is that according as their callings will suffer them they will put them in remembrance of these things whych otherwise they know better then I and that they would set before them the example of Moses who was not contented to haue brought the people out of Egipt but would very faine also haue conducted them into the land of Canaan that is would gladly haue bene the instrument of the ful and whole deliuerance of the people And seeing that the Lord doth offer vnto them this honor which he denied vnto his seruaunt Moses that they would not make themselues gilty of so great vnthankfulnes as wil folow of the forsaking of so incomparable a benefite That her maiestie especially and her most honourable counsaile wold set before them the example of * Dauid who although he made a great reformation of those things whych were defaced by Saule yet he was not content that the Arke of the Lord should dwell vnder a tabernacle and therfore desired maruellously that he might build the temple vnto the lord And seeing that the Lord hath graunted that vnto them which he denyed vnto his seruaūt that they wold not be narow and straight in them selues seeing the Lord openeth the treasures of hys goodnes so largely vnto them That they would set before them the zeale of * Zerubbabel who although he had after the returne out of captiuitie abolished idolatry laid the foundations of the temple and set vp an altare vnto god whervpon the morning and euening sacrifice was daily made yet being admonished by the Prophet Aggey that God woulde not be pleased vnles the temple also were fully buylded dyd all feare of the nations rounde about and other busynesses laid aside cause it forthwith and with all possyble speede to be made an ende of Finally that it would please them to consider the examples of * Iosias * Ezechias and * Iehoshaphat who are therfore to their euerlasting commendation praysed of the holy ghost for that they made whole through reformations whereas the honor of other some albeit they were otherwise good is stayned and caryeth the marke of their imperfection by this and like exception that although they did such good things and such yet they left also such such vndone Which I do not speake as though we had not already by her maiesty especially and afterwarde by their honors handes receiued a singuler benefite but that we hauing the whole might haue our hearts and mouthes filled wyth the prayse of God and continue the possession of that whych we haue which otherwise for our vnthankfull refusall shall be taken away Wherin as we haue especiall regarde that the name of God shoulde be magnified not by vs alone but by our posterity to the worldes end so is it not the smallest part of our care that her maiestie and your honoures to whom we are so depely bound and of whom we haue receiued so singuler benefits of peace and preaching of the gospel myght with your successions continue and flourish amongst vs for euer But the desire of reformation and feare of Gods heauy wrath to come vpon vs hath caried me further heerein then I purposed I will therfore make an end of these poynts considering that the vntruth of these accusations of newnes and straungenes of disorder and confusion of being ennemy to princes and common wealthes shall better appeare in the discourse of thys boke Emongst the offences taken by occasion of those which prefer this doctrine this is the chefest that comparison being made betwene those excellent men both in vertue and learning which suffered for the testimony of the truthe betwene vs of the one side Also betwene the Archbishops Bishops Deanes Archdeacons whych now are and vs on the other side it seemeth vnto many that it is not lyke to be good whych was not founde out by those excellent personages and whych being now propounded by men of no great shew is eyther misliked or at the least by no open approbation alowed of those whych cary greater countenaunces and be in greater dignities Vnto the first although answer is made more at large in this boke yet I wil adde thus much that as for my part I confes my self to be a great deale inferior vnto the least of them so the omitting of these necessary things ought to be no more preiudice against them or against those that prefer them then the omitting of the celebration of the feast of tabernacles so many hundreth yeres by so many good high priests in the raignes of so many good kings was preiudicial vnto y ministers which caused it to be celebrated when the people returned out of their captiuitie for it appeareth in the boke of Nehemias that the feast of
tabernacles which was commaunded of the Lord to be celebrated euery yeare was not celebrated in such sort as it was commaunded in the law from the dayes of Iosua the sonne of Nun vntill the returne of the people from their captiuitie And yet were there in this space diuers bothe iudges and kings both priestes and prophets singularly zealous and learned If therfore the omitting of so necessary a thing so many hundreth yeares by suche godly zealous learned persons could not bring any prescription against the truth the lacke of this necessary discipline by the space of 30. yeares through the ouersight of a fewe if they be compared with that multitude ought not to be alledged to kepe it out of the church The dignitie also and hygh estate of those whych are not so earnest in thys cause can not hinder it if we consider the wisdome of God almost from time to time to consist and to shew it selfe most in setting forth his truth by the simpler and weaker sort by contemptible and weake instruments by things of no value to the end that when all men see the basenes and rudenes of the instrumēt they might the more wonder at the wisedome and power of the artificer which wyth so weake and foolishe instruments bringeth to passe so wise and mighty things And if men will wyth such an eye of fleshe loke vpon matters they shall condemne that excellent reformation vnder the godly king Ezechias whych the holy ghost doth so highly commend in whych it is witnessed that the Leuites whych were a degree vnder the priests were more forward and more zealous then the priests them selues Yea wherin it is witnessed that the people were yet more earnest and more willing then either the Leuites or the priestes Whych thing if euer is verified in our time For when I consider the zeale for religion whych sheweth it selfe in many as well of the nobility and gentry of this realme as of the people their care to continue it and aduaunce it their voluntary charges to maintaine it their liberality towards them which bend them selues that way as I do therby conceiue some hope of the fauourable countenaunce and continuance of Gods goodnes towards vs so I can not be but ashamed of mine owne slackenes and afraid of the displeasure of the Lord for that those whose proper worke thys is especially and whych should beare the standarde and cary the torche vnto the rest are so colde and so careles in these matters of the Lord. And I humbly craue and most earnestly desire of those whych beare the cheefe titles in the Ecclesiasticall functions that as we doe in parte correct oure negligence by the example of the forwardnes and readines of the people so they would suffer themselues to be put in remembrāce of their dueties by vs which are vnderneath them and that they would not neglect thys golden gift of Gods grace in admonishing them because the Lord doth offer it in a treene or earthen vessell but that they would first consider that as * Naaman the Syrian prince receiued great commodity by following the aduise of his maide and after of his man And * Abigael being a wise woman singuler profit by obeying the counsell of her seruaunt so they may receiue oftentimes profitable aduertisement by those whych are in lower places then they them selues be Then let them thynke that as Naaman was neuer the les noble for obeying the voyce of his seruaūts nor Abigaell neuer the les wise because she listened vnto the words of her man so it can not deminishe their true honoure nor empaire the credite of their godly and vncounterfait wisdome if they geue care vnto that which is spoken by their inferioures And last of all that as if they had not listened vnto those simple persons the one had pearished in his leprosie the other had bene slaine with her familye euen so if they shall for any worldly respect of honor riches or feare of being accounted eyther vnaduised in taking this course or light or inconstāt in forsaking it stop their cares against thys louing Admonition of the Lorde they prouoke hys anger not against their health or against their life but against their owne soules by exercising of vnlawfull authority and by taking vnto them partly such things as belong by no meanes vnto the church and partly whych are common vnto them wyth the whole church or els wyth other the ministers and gouernors of the same wherof I beseche them humbly to take the better hede for that the iudgement of the Lord wil be vpon a great part of them by so much the heauier by how much they haue not only beleued the gospel but also haue receyued this grace of God that they should suffer for it So that if they wil neither take example of diuers their superiors the nobles of this realme nor be admonished by vs of the lower sort wherin we hope better of them yet they would remember their former times and correct them selues by them selues And seing they haue ben content for the gospels sake to quit the necessary things of this life they wold not thinke much for the discipline whych is no small parte of the gospel hauing both things necessary and commodious to part from that whych is not only in them superfluous and hath nothing but a vaine ostentation whych will vanish as the shadow but also is hurtfull vnto them and pernicious vnto the churche whych thing I do morelargely and plainly lay forth in thys boke Another exception against the fauorers of this cause is taken for that they propoūd it out of time whych is that the Iewes sayd that the time was not yet come to build the Lordes house but it is knowen what the * Prophet answeared And if no time were vnseasonable in the kinde of materiall building wherin there be some times as of summer more opportune and fit then others howe can there be any vntimely building in this spirituall house where as long as it is called to day men are commaunded to further thys worke And as for those which say we come to late and that this shuld haue bene done in the beginning and cannot now be done wythout the ouerthrow of all for mending of a peece they do little consider that * S. Paul compareth that which is good in the building vnto gold and siluer and precious stones and that whych is euil layd vpon the foundation vnto stubble and hey and wode Likewise therfore as the stubble and the hey and the wode be easely by the fire consumed wythout any losse vnto the gold or siluer or precious stones so the corrupt things in this building may be easely taken away wythout any hurt or hinderance vnto that which is pure and found And if they put such confidence in thys similitude as that they wil therby wythout any testimony of the word of God stay the further building or correcting the faultes