about the premisses I haue not thought amisse to resent in part by this postscript what occurreth vnto me in this behalfe And first of all is the wonderfull prouidence of almighty God in conseruation and continuation of the ould ancient Catholike Apostolike vniuersall faith left at the assension of our Sauiour vnto his followers and visible Church that then was and spread by them miraculously in very short space ouer all the world and continued euer since by tradition and succession of one age to another vntill our tyme vnder the protection and mighty powerable defence of the same Lord and Sauiour and vnder the gouernement of his only espouse the said Catholike Church Against which Church discent of faith therin though many new fantasyes and deuises of particular men which holy scriptures call heresies haue spronge vp in euery age with fresh and glisteringe titles of pure ghospell of new reueyled truth of godly reformation and other like pretenses and that God for more triall and exercise of his said Church for the speedier redresse perhaps of some abuses and corrupt manners crept into some part therof hath permitted the said new inuentions to preuayle grow and ruffle for a tyme as by experiēce of all ages we haue seene yet euer in the end he bringeth the same to confusion and shame accordinge to those words of the Psalme Percussit inimicos suos in posteriora opprobrium sempiternum dedit eis He striketh his enemyes in the hinder parts that is towards the end of their ruffle and confoundeth them with euerlasting shame Which prophesy of the Psalmist is principally to be vnderstood of hereticall enemyes as Tertullian Epiphanius other anciēt Fathers wryting against them do interprete and the experience of like end in all heresies past doth make yt playne And this shame and confusion of heresies heretiks which Gods prouidence doth heere fortell and in tyme also bringeth to passe so manifestly as the whole world may be wittnesse therof consisteth principally in foure points as holy Fathers do note First that euery new sect diuideth it selfe quickly into many others sects and heresies which S. Augustine sheweth largely of the Arrians and Donatists and Staphilus Lyndanus and other wryters of our time do shew the same of Luthers sect diuided into so many sects branches in so few yeares as all the world seeth And Stanislaus Rescius a learned man of Polonia◠in his late booke of the Atheisine of haeretiks sheweth out of the wrytings of protestants themselues that in the yeare 1596. when he wrote his booke which was but 4. yeares past that there were now extant in the world 270. different sects all risen out of Luthers from the yeare 1517. wherin Luther began All which he declareth at length the reason of this so great multiplication is giuen by Tertullian in his booke Of prescription against heretikes aboue 1400. yeares past sayinge That for so much as euery scholler of a sectary knoweth that his maister inuented his opinions of his owne head he will inuent also somethinge himselfe therby to shew that his witt is not inferiour to that of his Maisters And heerby they come to such confusion in the end that one destroyeth the other Wherof Luther himselfe is a good witnesse when he wryteth these words Truly God doth not fight by any other meanes with heretiks then by permittinge among them a certayne seditious spiritt of dissention by which their ouerthrow also and perdition doeth ensue So he who is a wittnesse in this cause without exception as yow know The second reproach followinge sectaryes is Contradiction to themselues in their owne wrytings and sayings and shamfull inconstancy in their doctrine The reason wherof is for that the said doctrine consystinge only in the inuention iudgment and memorye of the sectarye himselfe that inuented yt or chose to follow yt though inuented by another for whatsoeuer they alleage of scripture or other antiquity must depend of their owne new inuented interpretation of necessity it must follow that as their talents and witts discourse or memory do alter change or faile in tyme so must the doctrine also therof dependinge be altered And so eyther forgetting what they said in one time or place or matter or hauing altered their iudgment or opiniō vpon some further reason which then they saw not they must needs come to say cōtrary to that they did before In which kind of contradiction some thousands haue byn noted by learned men in Luther himselfe no maruayle seeing he was the first of that sect that inuented new opinion◠dayly And the same is obserued in Caluyns wrytings by VVestphalus Hesshusius and other Lutheran Protestants that wrote against him The third confusion that followeth commonly vpon heresie is coldnes doubtfulnesse in Religion and at length also plaine atheisme and contempt and thervpon dissolution of life neglect of conscience and other sutable effects which therfore among heretiks principally do ensue For that heresie callinge into question and shaking the very pillars and strongest meanes wherby men remayned assured before of their faith to witt the number quality and right vnderstandinge of holy scriptures tradition of the Church from whome we receaued them the verity of Ecclesiasticall storyes Christian miracles authority of generall Councells creditt of ancient Fathers and the like and breakinge downe besides the hedges and walles that were wont to be bulwarks to good life as Confession Restitution Satisfaction fastinge vowinge and other helpes of that quality this I say being once done which is the proper worke of heresy a man runneth naturally into doubt contempt of all and consequently leesing by little and little both feare and shame geueth himselfe ouer easily to all licentious liberty and sensuality of life which the Apostle calleth Desperation And thus much of the cause of this third reproach For as for the effect yt selfe to witt that these fruits haue followed in the world since heresies came in much more then euer before I could alleage both Luther himselfe and Erasmus Roterodauius and other authors of most creditt with Protestants testifyinge of their dayes and as for England yt selfe the present knowledge experience of thousands will beare me witnesse Wherfore I meane to prosecute no further these first 3. reproaches followinge heresies and heretiks to witt◠diuision among themselues contradiction to themselues and dissolution of life or propension to Atheisme though for the Readers fuller instruction therin yf he vnderstand the Latin tongue I must needs giue him notice of two famous bookes wrytten of late of that argument by two excellent learned men of our tyme taken out of the works themselues of all the Sectaryes of this age The one is of our contreyman Maister VVilliam Reynolds once fellow of new-colledg in Oxford a Protestant Preacher intituled Caluino◠turcismus that is of
Cyrill were not found in him leauing yt easy to the hearers saith he to inferre that the sense notwithstandinge was to be found in him Which is a great vntruth for that the sentence registred by all 4. secretaryes comprehendeth the whole passage in these words The passage cyted by Monsieur Plessis out of Cyrill is not found in Cyrill which sentence conteyneth as yow see both sense and words And it is a poore shift of Plessis to go about to help himselfe by so childish an inference as for that they gaue sentence that the words alleaged by him were not in Cyrill yt might be inferred that the sense was After this the Bishopp sheweth diuers other grosse vntruthes in this kind as namely that in reportinge the sentence of the Chancelour and deputyes vpon the last place examined out of Theodorete about Idolls he falsely peruerteth the same leauing out the principall important words of the said sentence to witt adored by Paynims and adored for Gods contrary to the faith of the records themselues vniformally taken by all 4. secretaryes then againe to excuse himselfe from a foule disgrace happened in the examination of the first place about the reall presence out of Scotus whose text Plessis could not read he telleth in his discourse this notable lye that the B. of Eureux had vsed a certayne fraudulent sleight to disgrace him which was to bring two editions of Scotus the one fayre to be read which he sent him ouernight with the 60. places to prepare himselfe the other he retayned with him of an euill print which he obtruded to him in the conference But this shamelesse fiction the Bishop refuteth first by the testimony of them that brought backe againe the bookes from Plessis house to the conference and then by the wittnesse of 4. seuerall Frenche gentlemen to witt Monsieur du Bertant du Beaulien du Berulle and du Salettes that came with him from Paris knew that he brought but one only edition of Scotus with him which was in folio of the print of Badius Ascensius in the yeare 1519. and lent vnto him by the college of Sorbone in Paris for this conference which booke being giuen to Plessis to verifie his place alleaged out of him he could not so much as read nor turne the booke for that there were some abreuiations therin after the manner of schoole-doctors and therby all the lookers on and hearers well perceaued that he was vtterly ignorāt in reading schoole-doctors though euery where for ostentation of learning he was accostomed to cyte them in his bookes And this shame Plessis had no other way to couer at that present before all the auditors but to say that he was not practised but in his owne bookes only though afterward vpon more deliberation he thought good to deuise this other shift of changinge the booke by the Bishopp which yet being so malitiously cōuinced of calumniation by the wittnesses before mentioned did exceedingly tend to Plessis discredit And this shall suffice for the first point of Plessis reply wherin yow see that for defence of his 9. places before conuicted of falsification he vttereth 9. other great vntruthes for doublinge the number As for the other two points of new shifts and recrimination I will remitt the Reader to the Bishop his owne refutation for them that vnderstand the french tongue and for the rest yt will not be hard to ghesse by example of this which we haue alleaged what manner of stuffe yt is which Plessis could alleage for his further defence in so manifest conuinced falsifications and yow shall heare presently what O. E. in England can say for him And yf yow find him by this little a man with out faith or spiritt of truth in his assertions then shall yt be wisdome to beware not only of this his booke against the Masse wherout so many falsifications haue byn gathered but of others also wrytten in the same spiritt and namely of one that for many yeares hath gone in English intituled of the Church which being smothely wrytten and stuffed out with great shew and ostentation of Scriptures Fathers Historyes and other such furniture hath dazeled the eyes of many as did also this other against the Masse vntill yt was sifted and examined by learned men But for the other in English I can assure the Reader that yt is a most deceytfull booke and may be well brother to this against the Masse And yt is now very neere twenty yeares gone that the late Earle of Lecester gaue one of them to a kinsman of his named Guilford to read for his satisfactiō in Religion who conferring the same with another learned gentleman a frend of mine desired that yt might be examined which my said frend began to do with such comodity of bookes as he could procure at that tyme and found so full stuffed with all kind of deceatfull impostures and falsifications as he remayned astonished therat and conferred the same with a learned Baron of the Realme now dead and he with another yet liuinge and neere to his Maiesties person who did all wonder at so notorious treachery though th'examē passed not through the greater part of the booke for that it was interrupted by some trouble fallinge to the examiner but he hath affirmed many times since and doth at this day that yt is incredible to beleeue what corrupt dealinge there is therin and exhorteth all those that haue meanes to try the truth of this his assertion which I cannot do at this present for that I haue not the booke by me yet I thought it conuenient to giue a note therof for stayinge of them that haue or may be deceaued therby and for styrringe vp of others to make this examen And so for this tyme we leaue Plessis to himselfe and to his shifts in France and shall passe ouer to consider what O. E. his aduocate can say for him in England WHAT O. E. OTHERWISE MATHEVV SVTCLIFFE HATH wrytten for defence of Plessis Mornay concerning the 9. places handled in the former Conference and how he committeth farre greater faultes then Plessis himselfe CHAP. V. HAVING pervsed what Monsieur Plessis hath byn able to say for himselfe both in the conference and after vpon better deliberation we must now examine briefly what our ould frend O. E. for vnder that vizard he masketh hitherto hath diuised for his defence For that my forsaid breife relation fallinge into his hands he thought yt to appertayne to his manhood as a martiall minister to proclayme himselfe champion in Plessis quarrell therby to fullfill the prouerbe that none so bold as blynd bayard and though he be not able to defend his owne head as after yow shall see from the same or like blowes which Plessis hath receaued yet will he needs be doing intrude himselfe for a shylde to the other and this with such violence or rather virrulency of speche raginge and rauinge at all those
be answered albeit yf he do but sett downe the whole places themselues as they ly in the Fathers books whence they are cut they will need no answere but will answere themselues and confute the alleager and shew the shamlesse dealinge eyther of Peter martyr or Iohn Fox or of both in cytinge them The like deceytfull dealinge was vsed by Nicolas Ridley B. then of Rochester and after of London the next moneth following in the Cambridge disputation about the same controuersy of the reall presence wherof he being president Martyn Bucer refusinge vtterly to deale in that controuersie he affirmed to the whole vniuersity that he had fiue sure grounds for the opinion of Zuinglius wherof the first was to vse his words the authority Maiestie and verity of holy scriptures the second the most certayne testimonyes of the ancient Catholike Fathers c. Wheras the truth is that both these foundations are most euidently against him as much the one as the other which Bucer well kâ—ew therfore would not take part with him in that matter though soone after to remedy this breach he putt vp three other impertineÌ„t questions to be disputed against Catholiks but in this other article he know that Ridley lyed shamfully against his owne conscience for that all Farthers are against him most euidently so do the Magdeburgians their cheefe Protestant Chroniclers shew declare in euery age or century of their Ecclesiasticall history And yt shal be sufficient for the reader to cast his eye ouer the 4. Chapters only of euery century intituled of doctrine And thus much for K. Edwards dayes when Zuinglian Religion first peeped vp in our countrey After this man stepped to Paules Crosse in the beginninge of this Queenes dayes about the yeare 1559. and 1560. Maister Iohn Iewell otherwise called B. of Salisbury and he proceeded yet further in this bragg or fiction For he protested there euen with feigned teares that yf any one authority place sentence or asseueration of any one Father Doctor Councell or authenticall history within the first 600. yeares after Christ could be brought forth by any man liuinge for any one of those points of Catholike Religion which he there recyted to be in controuersie that then plainely and sincerely he vvould subscribe Against which vayne and shamlesse bragg when Doctor Harding and diuers other learned men of our side began to wryte from Louayne and to bring forth authorityes of all Fathers Doctors Councells and historyes in great aboundance the first effect of this chalenge that appeared to the world was a seuere proclamation that no such bookes wrytten in English by the Catholike party should be receaued or read in England vnder great punishments by which prouision Maister Iewell thinking himselfe meetly well deâ—enced he plyed the pulpitt often and renewed his chalenges many tymes and perceauing notwithstaÌ„ding that Doctor Hardings confutation was come into England he answered the same with a longe volume of Rhetoricall words stuffed the margents therof with the shew of infinite authors as though the whole world had byn for him and none for the other side and with this he deceaued the people then and doth to this day such I meane as haue not commodity or learninge or other meanes to examine those places and to find out the manifold lyes and falsifications therin conteyned And this was the gaine by all likely hood that Maister Iewell preteÌ„ded to his cause by that worke knowing full well that this sort of men is farre the greater which would be gayned and setled in his doctrine before the learneder sort who are but few in comparison of the other could haue tyme books and commodity to discouer refute him when they should do yt they should hardly be beleeued And in this conceate he was not deceaued yf we respect that present tyme and many yeares after as also yt is probable the L. Plessis Mornay had the like designment in stuffing vp his bookes with the like authorityes of Fathers but yf we consider the continuance of tyme wherof truth is said to be the daughter yt hath succeeded vnto him as yow haue heard and will do more and more dayly as to such shifts is wont to happen that is to say accordinge to Kinge Dauids sayinge before recorded â—pprâ—brium sempiternum dedit eis God layeth euerlastinge shame vpon them For how many learned men lightly of our nation haue taken vpon seriously to go ouer that booke of Maister Iewells to examine yt by the authors themselues with any indifferency of mynd haue for the most part byn therby conuerted to Catholike Religion though neuer so great Protestants before of which sort I haue heard relation of many but of some I can testify my selfe for that I haue heard it from their owne mouthes who of earnest Protestants were made most zealous Catholikes by that meanes principally of which number I thinke yt not inconuenient to name hâ—â—re some 2. or 3. omittinge others which for iust respects may not to be named The first of them is Syr Thomas Copley made Lord afterward in his banishment by the K. of France who often tymes hath related vnto me with much comfort of his soule how that being a zealous Protestant and very familiar to the late Earle of Licester in the beginninge of this Q. dayes when Maister Iewells booke was newly come forth he being also learned himselfe in the Latyn tongue tooke paines to examine certayne leaues therof and findinge many falshoods therin which were in excusable as they seemed to him he conferred the same with the said Earle who willed him that the next tyme Maister Iewell dyned at his table he should take occasion after dynner to propose the same which he did soone after and receauing certaine triflinge answers from Maister Iewell he waxed more hoate and vrged the matter more earnestly which Iewell perceauinge told him in effect That Papists were Papists and so they were to be dealt withall and other answere he could not gett which thinge made the good Gentleman to make a new resolution with himselfe and to take that happy course which he did to leaue his countrey and many great commodityes which he enioyed therin to enioy the liberty of conscieÌ„ce for saluation of his soule and so he both liued and died in voluntary banishment for confession of that truth which his Sauiour by occasion of Maister Iewells falshood had reueyled vnto him The second example which I remember of my owne knowledge is Maister Doctor Steuens a learned man yet aliue who being Secretary or Chaplyn to Maister Iewell for I remember not well whether and a forward man in Protestant Religion at that tyme espied certayne false allegations in his Maisters booke whilst yt was yet vnder the print in London wherof aduertisinge him by letters for that he supposed yt might be by ouersight the other commaunded notwithstandinge the print to goe forward and passed it ouer
the whole lent followinge were occupyed for the most part in refutinge and shewinge the falshood of this booke duringe which tyme many Protestants of accounte were either conuerted or greately moued heer with and amonge other one Monsieur Sainct-Mary du Monte a principal noble man o◠Normandy who frequenting the preaching of one F. Angelus a Capuchin friar borne a great noble man and named before his entrance into Religion Monsieur du Bouchage brother to the late Duke of Ioyeus whose state he had of late inherited his said brother being dead but left the same for that other vocation of a poore and humble seruant of God And albeit afterward vpon necessity of the said temporal state which he had left he was forced for some yeares to take a secular life vpon him againe and to mennage armes as he did by licence of the Supreme Pastor of Gods Church yet after publike affayres once accommodated he retired himselfe backe to his Religious habitt habitation againe where he liueth now a most vertuous life preacheth with great zeale singular edification of all sorts of men well sheweth that his mind is superior to all wordly welth promotion And these are examples that are not found lightly among Protestants but are reserued as peculiar to Christs Catholike Church where the dew of heauenly grace continually falling worketh often such extraordinary effects And thus much of him By this godly mans sermons then was Monsieur Sainct-Mary at length conuerted the experience of this triall not a little helping thervnto as after shall appeare and made a good Catholike with no small edification of all men in respect of the great humility and zeale he vsed in his returne to Gods Church and with much comfort of the K. himselfe to whome first before all other he vttered his resolutiō And heervpon as well his Maiestie as also the noble men that were Protestants and namely the Duke of Bouillon Monsieur Rosny Monsieur Digiers and other began to call vpon this triall of Monsieur Plessis his booke for that it seemed to touch all their honours and of their Religion especially when the B. of Eureux had protested vpon his honour in the pulpit that he could shew more then 500. falsifications in the same booke for his part Vpon which offers made as well by him as others there ensued the chalengs heerafter following The issue wherof was this that when vpon the 4. of May the K. being at his palace of Fountayne-bleau had commaunded both partyes aforesaid to be present and their bookes to be brought with them for this triall to be made in his owne presence Monsieur Plessis seemed to shrinke and to seeke all delayes possible eyther to auoyde the same or to bring it to some longer examination by going ouer all his bookes and works leafe by leafe lyne by lyne as you shall heare him demaund presently but this being denyed by the B. cut of by the K. expresse cōmandement he appeared at last vpon the day aforsaid with some 4. or 5. Ministers on his side But the day precedent before this the B. to deale more plainly and shew frendshipp sent vnto him threescore places taken out of his booke vpon which he meāt to presse him and as his words are to begin the play wishinge him to come well prouided in the same Of which threescore Monsieur Plessis chose out nynteene that seemed to him most defensible and vpon which he said he would ioyne the combat adding moreouer that he would leese his life yf he were conuinced therin But the next day the triall being begon vpon the first place and that found false he would haue passed to the second but the B. refused so to do except the deputyes and iudges there present would first subscribe and testifie that this first place was falsified which at length they did as well in this as in the rest there examined and Monsieur Plessis remayned in that pittifull plight which afterward yow shall heare by the B. and other mens letters vnto which I remitt yow beseechinge almighty Cod that this so notorious an accident may worke that consideration with yow as the moment importāce of the marter requireth And so to his holy prouidēce I commit yow from Rome the 10. of Iune 1600. THE CHALENGE OR PROVOCATION MADE BY THE L. Plessis Mornay vnto the L. Peron Bishopp of Eureux the 20. of March 1600. CHAP. II. THE L. of Plessis doth demaund and require that my L. Bishop of Eureux and all other that blame or accuse him to haue vsed in his bookes sett forth any false citations will vouchsafe to ioyne with him for subscribinge and presenting a most humble request vnto the K. Maiestie to intreate him most humbly to ordaine and name such and so many as shall please his Maiestie being men of sufficient learning vertue before whome the said L Plessis may verifie from leafe to leafe from lyne to lyne all authorityes which he hath cited in his said books And that this triall be made by such copyes and bookes as haue byn printed in those places and in those vniuersityes which they of the Roman Church hould not for suspected In wittnesse wherof I the aforesaid Plessis Mornay haue heere put to my hand seale At Paris the 20. of March in the yeare one thousand six hundred THE ANSWERE OF THE B. OF EVREVX to the former Chalenge the 25. of March 1600. CHAP. III. HAVING receaued good Reader this Chalenge wherof not only the report and brute but the copyes also themselues and already spread abroad wrytten and subscribed by the L. of Plessis and consideringe that this is not a chalenge of one priuate man to another but rather of one party or side against the other it seemed that the interest of the commō cause of Gods Church did not permitt eyther to lett it passe without answere or to answere it secretly For as the end of this his offer is in case it be refused by such refusall and sylence of Catholiks to gaine a publike iustification of his books and wrytinges so ys it conuenient that may answere to the same be also publike that the enemyes of Gods Church do not gett that aduantage as to publish one thing conceale the other And therfore to the end that both heauen and earth may see and behould how I do proceed in this matter I make yt knowne by this my hand wryting both to him and to all other that shall read the same that I do accept of his offer and chalenge and do require of him againe to cause the same to be put in execution and not to end only in words And for my part that all hinderance therof may be remoued I protest that I am presently ready and do desire out of hand to come to the very point of shewinge the falshoodes without byndinge my selfe to that large wearisome methood of examining his late
Caluyns Religion leading to Turcisme or a comparison of Turkish Religion with Caluinisme The other is of the aforesaid Polonian gentleman Stanislaus Rescius Embassadour and Treasorer for his King in the Kingdome of Naplesâ— where his said worke was printed 4. yeares past as hath byn said to witt in the yeare 1596. and yt is diuided into two bookes the title wherof is this De Atheismis Phalerismis Euangelicorum nostri temporis libri duo quorum prior de fide posterior tractat de operibus eorum Which in English is thus Two bookes of the Atheismes and Phalerismes or crueltyes of the ghospellers of our tymes wherof the first treateth of their faith the second of their works This is the title and I do assure the Reader yf he pervse them with attention and indifferency he will remayne informed by their readinge and not a little astonished to behould what is there alleaged out of the wrytings of Protestants themselues and other authenticall witnesses in this behalfe Of the other worke of Maister VVilliam Reynolds prouinge that Caluyns Religion is worse in condition and lesse probable in reason then that of the Turke hath lesse ground substance therin then the other for all this and much more he declareth in this worke I shall not need to treat heere nor yet giue notice of the booke for that it was written printed very lately in Flanders is no doubt or may be easily in England before this day only I will adde this of the iudgment of strangers to witt that by testimony and asseueration of diuers very learned men of other nations there was neuer wrytten a thinge in that kind and of such an argument more excellent in respect of the infinite variety of hereticall books which he sheweth to haue read and well pondered and for the many inuincible reasons demonstrations which he alleageth for his purpose And so much of this And now I will speake somewhat larger of the fourth reproach and shame accompanyinge comonly heretiks and sectaryes and especially the heads and cheefe therof that wryte bookes which is counterfaytinge deceytfull dealinge falsifyinge and open lyinge but principally in alleaginge antiquity for their purpose wherof I haue occasion by this present story of Plessis Mornay to say somewhat and the accusation of ancient Fathers that call heretiks Falsarij that is falsifiars and corrupters of antiquity occurreth euery where in their books So as the spiritt of old heretiks agreeth with this of our new in this point as well as in many others and if we will consider the cause necessityes of this reproach in like manner we shall find them no lesse euident or forcible then the former for that sectaryes pretendinge antiquity in their doctrine for that otherwise yt would haue no credit findinge all antiquity wholy against them except onlyâ— the antiquity of heretiks and sectaryes which they dare not alleage openly though they follow them they are forced to fayne and forge somewhat of their owne as for example some of the ancient Fathers to be with them or els should they remayne without all shew or colour of honest pretence In which point notwithstandinge they do not agree amonge themselues For that first Martyn Luther their great Father forseeinge this difficulty not willinge at the beginninge to cast himselfe into these two troublesome labyrinthes first of shiftinge of by diuised interpretations those manifold authorityes of Fathers that were to be brought against him and then in finding out other Fathers in his owne behalfe he tooke a more briefe and compendious way which was to deny and contemne them all for so he doth in very many places of his workes protesting at the very beginning almost of all his heresies to wit in the yeare 1521. in an epistle wrytten to a German knight that he was tyed by the authority of no Father though neuer so holy yf he were not approued by the authority of holy scriptures wherof you must imagine himselfe world be iudge and addeth in the same place that the fathers wrytings were full of errors contrary often to themselues and disagreeing the one from the other wrestinge scriptures and the like The same also he saith of Councells in the same place and in the next yeare after this wrytinge against K. Henry the 8. he saith I do oppose against all the testimonyes of fathers of men neuer so holy of Angells and of diuells c. Wherby we may see what accoumpt he made of Fathers and Councells when they were against him And the same did Zuinglius Caluyn and others after him for a tyme when Fathers authorityes plainly were against them and could not be shifted of by sleight interpretation as in their works appeareth and Rescius declareth it notably and largely by manifold examples and places in his tenth Chapter and first booke aforesaid But when this audacity grew in tyme to be very reproachfull some later followers of theirs blushinge therat and desiringe to exercise their witts in a higher kind of subtility they betooke themselues to a more plausible but yet more shamefull and desperate course then these their maisters which was to say that indeed the Fathers and ancient wryters were wholy for them not for vs as the philosopher that would defend that swow was blacke not white And this course tooke first of all Peter martyr in the â—yeare 1549. and third of the raigne of K. Edward the 6. as appeareth by Fox in the last edition of his Acts and Monuments And this perhaps Peter martyr was forced to do at that tyme by commaundement of B. Cranmer and others of the priuy Counsell who appointed his disputation for more authorizing of their new decree in Religion scarse two monethes before agreed vpon would perforce haue the Fathers to be of their side But what successe Peter martyr had in this attempt yt may appeare suâ—â—iciently by the places themselues which Fox alleageth for him out of ten or twelue seuerall Fathers wherof the Reader will scarse find one though the said texts be breefely alleaged truly cyted in all respects but that eyther the words next going beforeâ— or immediatly following or both making wholy against them are purposely left out and others put in or mistranslated And let any man who listeth examine the same and conferre them with the authors bookes themselues he shall find this to be true For I haue examined them with some diligence my selfe as vpon some other occasion herafter may chance appeare but now yt were to long to alleage them in this place I meane the manifest falsifications therin vsed But yf any Protestant in defence of Peter martyr and Iohn Fox hâ—s honour will take vpon him to verify the same and their quotations to be good and without fraud lett him wryte a little pamphlet therof as easily he may they being conteyned in lesse then one page he shall presently
as it was which this man seeing that had a conscience and sought the truth indeed resolued to take another way of findinge yt out and hauinge found yt in the Catholike Church where only it was to be found he resolued also to follow yt and so he did and went voluntarily into banishment for the same where yet he liueth vnto this day in France with good reputation both of learninge and godlynes The third example that I call to mynd is the worthy man before named Maister VVilliam Reynolds who being first an earnest professor and Preacher of Protestant Religion in England and much engaged amonge the Puritans in Northampton-shire as he was wont to tell he fell in the end to read ouer Maisters Iewells booke and did translate some part thereof into Latyn but before he had passed halfe ouer he found such stuffe as made him greatly mislike of the whole Religion and so he leauing his hopes commodityes in England went ouer the sea into these parts and the last yeare of Iubiley to witt 1575. he came to Rome and brought that booke with him and presented both himselfe and yt to the Tribunall of Inquisition of his owne free motion and accord where I ghesse the booke remayneth still yf yt be not burned and himselfe after absolution receaued from his former errors which he with great humility and zeale required my selfe also at that tyme spake with him in that place he returned into France and Flanders and there liued many yeares with singular edification for his rare vertue learninge and how hartily indeed he was conuerted may well appeare by his zealous wrytinge both in Latyn English in defence of Catholike Religion in confutation of Protestant errors which himselfe before had held for verityes And thus much of the falshood of Maister Iewells wrytyngs wherof he that will see more lett him read Maister Hardings returne of vntruthes but especially yt would import him that hath learninge leasure and commodity to examine the quotations themselues by a good library but in this kind of false dealinge I can giue Maister Iewell a compagnion as good as himselfe yf not exceedinge him which is Iohn Fox who aboue all that euer wrote perhaps may be recorded for notorious in this behalfe I haue had occasion these monethes past to peruse a great part of his last edition of Acts and Monuments printed the fifth tyme in the yeare 1596. and do find it so stuffed with all kind of falshood and deceytfull manner of telling tales as I could neuer truly haue beleeued yt yf I had not found yt by my owne experience And I do persuade my selfe fully notwithstandinge all his hypocriticall words and protestations which are more and oftener repeated by him then in all the wryters togeather that I haue read in my life that there is scarse one whole story in that huge volume told by himselfe except when he relateth other mens words out of records and therby is bound to the formality therof but that it is falsified and peruerted one way or other eyther in the beginning middle or end by adding cutting of concealing false translating wrong cyting or cunning iugling and falsification which I do not speake for any tooth against the man that is dead and whome I neuer knew but in respect of truth only and of so many deceaued soules as are in danger to perish by his deludinge them Nor when I speake of Maister Fox his falshoods do I make accompt of any errors or ouersights though neuer so grosse that are found in him as to reckon some for Martyrs that were aliue at the making of his booke for this he excuseth in his later edition in that he was deceaued by false informations nor do I vrge that others are made Calendar-martyrs by him whome he cannot gainsay but that they were malefactors and some of them eyther madde or denyed Christ himselfe and yet placeth he them in his Calendar for Saints These escaped I say are not heere to be vrged by me now but rather in another place The points that I for the present accuse him of are willfull corruptions and falsifications that cannot be excused as among other things and for examples sake when he recyteth any point in controuersie of the Catholiks doctrine he putteth yt downe commonly in plaine coÌ„trary words sense to that which he must needs know that they holde and teach for so much as their publike books are extant in euery mans hands to testifie the same Of this kind a certaine learned student of diuinity brought to me of late 30. places taken out of two only leaues of Fox his booke to witt from the 12. to the 14. which I looking vpon found them all most euident by conference of the Catholike authors alleaged by the said student and moreouer besides these thirty I did discouer so many other plaine falshoods and manifest willfull lyes in those only two leaues as might well double the former number and I do offer to proue them one by one yf any frend of Iohn Fox will ioyne issue with me vpon this point And then yf by Arithmetique a man will multiply these lyes falsifications of two leaues only with a thousand and more which Fox hath in this last volume and will adde afterward to euery two leaues so many falshoods the number will rise to so huge an accoumpt as were a shame to sett downe and would much surpasse Iohn Sleyâ—ans Story in this kind though he be the Protestants Protochronicler out of which an eleuen thousand lyes were only gathered by the Catholike wryters of Germany And this is so much as for the present seemeth needfull to be said about this matter The end of the relation there followeth the defence A DEFENCE OF THE PRECEDENT RELATION against the shiftes calumniations and tergiuersations as well of the L. Plessis himselfe and some of his Hugonotes in France as of their Proctor O. E. in England The Preface concerninge the authority of the Actes sett forth in France THE former relation being sett downe wholy and entirely as yt was printed in the yeare 1600. though somwhere more explaned and towards the end made sâ—orter I am first to yeld a reason in this place why the passages or points accused of falshood that vvere handled in the conference ensue not heere as they did in the former edition wherof the cause is for that those passages indeed were neuer seene or viewed by the relator himselfe but added only by a frend as in the preface therof is signified according to his wrytten copy receaued from Paris which copy though it agree in truth and substance with the publike Acts themselues of that confereÌ„ce which afterward haue byn authentically 〈◊〉 sorth yet for that the points are not so cleerly laid open as some men perhaps would require I haue thought good to relate the same againe in this my defence out of the said Acts
PRINT ABOVT THE fact it selfe of the Conference had at Fountayne-bleau then is comprehended in my former Relation CHAP. I. FOR that my briefe narration before recited was founded only vpon certayne letters sent from Paris to Rome presently after the conference had as by pervsing therof yow haue seene and my purpose also was to be very briefe I could not sett downe so many particularityes as these acts do now represent yet do I find that whatsoeuer I related before is now confirmed againe by these acts and diuers things added wherof some principall I shall heere touch in few words cytinge the leafe of the said Acts wherin they may be read more largely The title of the said Acts is this Actes de la conference tenue c. Acts of the conference held betweene the L. Bishop of Eureux and the L. Plessis in presence of the King at Fountayne-bleau the fourth of May 1600. published by the permission and authority of his Maiestie c. the same yeare 1600. And thus much of the title now to the contents The first occasion of this combatt sett downe in these Acts is that vpon the 20. day of March anno 1600. a great noble man of Normandy named Lord Sainct-Mary du Mont a Protestant at that tyme but soone after conuerted meetinge with Monsiear Plessis at the lodginge of the Lady Princesse of Orange in Paris told him how he was cryed out of euery where about the falsifications found in his booke lately printed against the Masse that himselfe had seene some shewed vnto him by the B. of Eureux which he could not solue Heervpon Monsieur Plessis thinkinge himselfe touched greatly in honour did iudge yt the best way to make a publike Chalenge to the said B. of Eureux which he wrote and gaue abroad the very same day and the L. Sainct-Mary sent one of them presently to the B. wherevnto he made answere acceptinge of his Chalenge vpon the 25. of March which letters before I haue alleaged and soone after the said Bishopp thinking yt conuenient to print and publish the same did so and sent a copy therof to the King togeather with a letter of his owne hand of the 28. of March wherin amongst other words he saith thus I do send vnto your Maiestie a Chalenge of Monsieur Plessis made about the examen of his allegations in his booke against the Masse togeather with my answere to the same I should be vnworthy to serue so great and noble a King and of so high courage at your Maiestie is yf I should refuse such a Chalenge especially in a quarrell that may be ended without bloud and tend much to the glory of almighty God and to the saluation os him that shal be ouercome and therfore I do most humbly beseech your Maiestie to permitt this triall c. Heervpon Monsieur Plessis vnderstandinge that the B. had wrytten to the King he wrote also another to his Maiestie to the same effect returned likewayes an answere to the Bishop shewinge himselfe willinge to goe forward in the said triall but with diuers exceptions and diuersions as in the said letter appeareth which we haue related before The King hauinge receaued these letters from both partyes and conferred the same with his Counsell resolued to permitt the triall demaunded as also to be present theratt himselfe and so gaue order to the L. Chancelour of France vpon the second of Aprill to warne the partyes to prepare themselues and to be ready for the beginninge of the next moneth with all prouision necessary for that Triall In the meane space the Popes Nuntius that lay in Paris hearinge of an appointment for triall of matters in Religion began to make some difficulty to permitt any such publike act appertayning to the vniuersall cause of Christendome without licence and approbation of the Sea Apostolike and proofe of the persons that must dispute alleaginge that it was a thinge inconuenient to lay the creditt of so great and generall a cause of Religion vpon the learning of any particular man whatsoeuer without necessity But when he was answered by the B. and after by the K. himselfe and others that their meaninge was not to dispute of controuersies but only to examine places cited by Monsieur Plessis whether they were truly and faithfully calleaged or no and that this should be sett downe and obserued as the first law of this conference the Nuntius was satisfied and so the day was appointed his Maiestie commandinge expressely that the conference should be made with all sweetnesse and courtesie c. So in the meane space diuers things were set in order necessary for that conference as namely for choosinge the iudges on both sides and principall assistance without all partiality to witt learned wise and graue men to the end that all might passe with indifferency loue and charity as much as might bee namely for the Catholiks was chosen the president of Tou a great learned man vpright constant and a neere kinsman and frend to Monsieur Plessis The second was Monsieur Pitheu aduocate in the Court of Parlament of Paris a man both graue and generally well learned and a â—amiliar frend also to Monsieur Plessis The third was Monsieur le Feure Maister of the Prince of Condie And on the other side were named the President Calignon Chauncelour of Nauarre and the Lord de Fresne Canaye president of the Chamber of Parlament appointed for them of the new Religion in Languidoc and Monsieur Cazaubon Reader of his Maiestie in Paris all earnest learned and iuditious Protestants The K. departed from Paris the 21. of Aprill to Fountayne bleau to hold there the confereÌ„nce leauing order with the L. Chancelour that the next weeke followinge he with the rest of the iudges and deputyes should follow and bringe the B. of Eureux with them so they did arriuing at Fountayne-bleau the 27. of Aprill and the next day arriued also Monsieur Plessis but brought no books with him sayinge that he had not byn warned to do so and so the next day after that againe he presented a new petition to the Kinge in wrytinge by the Chancelour askinge 4. thinges which his Maiestie caused presently to be conferred with the B. to take his answere thervnto The first was that wheras the B. had giuen outâ— that he had obserued aboue 4000. falsifications in his booke Against the Masse and therby infamed the same that yt might be examined page by page and leafe by leafe as before he had demaunded but the B. refused this for the same reasons which he had alleaged before in his letter to Monsieur Plessis principally for that yt was but a refuge to draw out tyme he well knowinge that yt would neuer be ended The second demaund was that all such places of his booke as the B. did not accuse of falsity might be esteemed as allowed and approued after this conference But
contentment to Plessis and those of his party wherein it might be for which cause he said further as before that he desired this conference might passe with all quietnesse possible and that the Bishop should abstayne as much as he could from vsing the word false or falsification and other such like as might be offensiue for that his intent was to pacifie and gaine men by this triall and not to exasperate And the same he said also vnto the Lords deputyes there present requiring them that yf they should see any man wax into bitternesse choler they should restraine him seeke to end all with good words and substantiall matter After dynner about one of the clocke the said conference was begone in presence of his Maiestie and of a great number of the cheefe nobles of France which were long to name for before the K. satte the L. Chancelour and the deputyes of both partyes before named and at his right hand satt the Archbishopp of Lyons and sundry other Bishopps and on his left hand the 4. secretaryes of State behind the King sate the Princes namely the Dukes of Vaudemont Nemeurs Mercury Dumayne Niuers Elbeuse Aignilon Ianuile and others and after them againe the officers of the crowne Counselors of State and others of the nobility and about 200. other hearers within the chamber aboue 500. in a gallery and garden without expecting the resolutiō from passage to passage wherof there were many Protestants and diuers Ministers of the new Keligion All being sett the L. Chancelour made first a briefe speech confirmed afterward by the King himselfe that the meaning of this meeting was to try out the truth of certaine allegations that were called in controuersy in the L. Plessis booke and not to dispute of any article of Religion at all to which effect also the Bishop had a breefe speech alleaging the example of Eugenius Archbishop of Carthage who being required by Hunnericus King of the Vandalls in Africa to dispute with the Arrians he refused the same without consent of other Bishopps and especially of the B. of Rome as head of all Monsieur Plessis also made a very short preface saying that as he had wrytten his books with intent to do God seruice for the reformation of his Church and would thinke himselfe happy yf he could help any thing therin so was he so farre of from all intention of willfull falsifyinge that yf he knew his right hand to haue done yt he should be the first to burne the same He made mention againe and shewed greefe that 4. thousand places should be noted as falsified by him in his booke and finally protested that howsoeuer it succeded with him his cause was particular and touched not the reformed Churches in France which were before him and would be after him c. The B. repeated againe the matter of 4000. places corrupted and offered to stand vnto yt and to verifie them as well as those 500. new agreed vpon and repeated againe breifely the whole story of this action and how guilfully Plessis had proceeded in cullinge out 19. places only of 60. offered him and of these had put in the first ranke Scotus and Durand two schoolemen about the controuersie of the Sacrament leauing out other places of S. Cyprian S. Cyrill S. Chrisostome other ancient Fathers obiected to haue bin corrupted by him in the very same controuersie of the reall presence amongst the number of these three score which fraud to the end the iudges and deputyes might see and behould he laid downe vpon the table that stood before them the whole Catalogue of the said 60. places sent the day before to Plessis which being done the King comaunded the foure secretaryes of the crowne to wryte only the conclusions and iudgments that should be giuen and not the whole speaches for yt would be ouerlonge and so the conference began the B. sayinge at the opening of the first booke Domine labi◠mea aperies os meum annunciabit laudem tuam Monsieur Plessis also prayed briefly with his hatt before his face c. OF NINE PLACES EXAMINED IN THIS FIRST DAYES conference and how they were all iudged by sentence of the deputyes to haue byn corrupted by Monsieur Plessis CHAP. II. IN this first dayes conference which endured 6. houres there could be examined only 9. places of the 19. which Plessis had chosen to defend of which nine also the first two by his art and fraude as in the former Chapter hath byn seene were of 2. schoolemen or scholasticall wryters Scotus and Durandus which being only named for exāple sake by the B. of Eureux in his catalogue of 60. places but yet after many more important then they of the anciēt Fathers which Plessis thought good to thrust backe all the said ancient Fathers and namely S. Cyprian S. Cyrill of Ierusalem S. Iohn Christostome and others cited in the same controuersie and many more in other questions to aduāce forward to the first second places of triall the said Scotus and Durandus thinking therby partly to weary his Maiesty the audience and to make the conference lothsome and contemptible by so base a beginning partly also presuming that he might more easily trifle out the tyme in wranglinge about these as he did a whole houre about the first place only of Scotus and would haue done the whole day yf he might haue byn permitted but the Bishop discouering this fraud vnto the auditorye shewed withall that his deceyt and false dealing was all one in corrupting meane authors as the best and greatest therfore that it was not so much to be cōsidered by the iudges what the wryter was that was falsified but how much with how great fraud he is falsifyed And with this they passed to the particulars The first place examined out of Scotus about the reall presence This preamble being made the B. began to read out of Plessis booke pag. 869. accordinge to his forsaid edition in 4. printed at Rochell by Hierome Hautin these words out of Scotus about the Sacrament of the Altar Iohn Duns saith he called Scot almost 100. yeares after the Councell of Lateran was not afraid to call in question if the body of Christ be really conteyned vnder the species or accidents of bread and he disputeth that it is not and his arguments are for that the quantity doth not permitt yt nor yet the locality and circumscription annexed to the nature of a true body such a one as Christ had c. Thus he And then for proofe he quoteth in the margent Scotus vpon the 4. booke of Sentences dist 10. quaest 1. Out of which place the B. did inferre two willfull and malitious deceyts of Plessis the first that he would make his Reader beleeue that Scotus the rest of the Schoolemen when they propose any matter to be disputed to and fro do doubt of the truth therof
side began as hath byn said to enter into another cogitation to thinke whether yt were not best by this occasion to seeke out the truth of matters indeed and that without pertinacity or passion for so much as yt was a matter concerninge the eternall saluation or damnation of their soules And this happy course amonge others tooke as in part before yow haue vnderstood the aforsaid noble man of Normandy Monsieur Sainct-Mary du Mont who being a great Protestant before was first moued towards Catholike Religion partly by the Sermons of Monsieur Buchage brother to Duke Ioyeus made afterward a Capuchin friar as hath byn declared which Sermons were principally against the falsifications of Plessis in his booke against the Masse partly also by the sight of some of the said falsifications themselues shewed vnto him in priuate by the said B. of Eureux before the conference but he was fully conuerted by the trialll it selfe and became afterward a zealous Catholike But more notorious and admirable was the conuersion of the L. Fresnes Canay cheife president for the Protestant party in the parlament Chamber called Demy party in Languedocke chosen by Monsieur Plessis himselfe for chiefe deputy on his party for this conferēce who taking the same course in enforminge himselfe found matters so euident as he became a Catholike vpon the sight of this triall and that with such feruour as he would not be absolued secretly of his heresie before held as for respect vnto his dignity and place was offered but would needs abiure publikely in the hands of the B. of Paris and so he did being a very learned man in his profession at this day is Embassadour for his Christian Maiestie with the State of Venice where his wife in like manner the last yeare by his owne especiall meanes she being a Lady of much nobility was conuerted also both of them remayned most zealous Catholiks Which two examples of Monsieur Sainct-Mary and Mousieur President Fresnes both of them being learned and earnest Protestants all their life before did greatly mooue the King himselfe for his comfort and confirmation in Catholike Religion but no one thing so much as his being present at the forsaid Conference and so he is said to haue often confessed afterward for that he saw there that which he could neuer haue imagined to witt that men of learning iudgment would willfully for maintayninge of faction wryte and publish that which they must needs know in their consciences to be false He cōsidered that these 9. places there examined were picked out by Plessis himselfe of 60. sent him by the Bishop and that these 60. were but a parcell of 500. which the said B. had bound himselfe to exhibite in 10. dayes to be discussed and that by all probability the forsaid 9. were of the least falsified and easiest to be defended of all the rest at least wise of the first 60. for that otherwise Monsieur Plessis would not haue chosen them Wherfore hauinge seene by experience that no one of those 9. was able to be defended from plaine and willfull falshood he imagined what would fall out in the rest if the conference had gone forward and if all should passe as in these 9. throughout the 500. there ready to be exhibited yea in 3500. more which the Bishop said he had gathered out and offered to bynd himselfe to conuince them of no lesse falsity and imposture then those nyne and all this out of one boooke These things I say laid togeather his Maiestie had good cause to thinke what may be thought of that mans conscience that wryteth and printeth such a booke in matters of Religion Moreouer his Maiestie could not but remember what tales the said Plessis and other such fellowes had told him against Catholiks Catholike Religion for many yeares whilst he was yet a Protestant to witt that they had no truth on their side no antiquity noe true ancient authority but all was for them and their new pretended Religio◠He could not forgett also what sollemne protestations they were accustomed to make of their owne sincerity both in wrytinge and preachinge and especially Plessis in this last contētion about his booke before yt came to the tryall offering to leese his life and honour yea to burne his owne hand yf any one place were proued to be wittingly corrupted or falsified which yet was so euidently conuinced by the triall not in one only but in euery one of the nine places as no man of reason could deny yt and the deputyes of his owne party gaue sentence against him Wherfore this hauing so fallen out and the Bishop of Eureux protestinge of his side that the places of greatest corruption remayned yet behind aboue twenty fold more in number then those that had byn examined seing also the shamfull flight of Monsieur Plessis from the continuation of the combatt and the shamelesse discourse cast abroad by him without a name wherin many matters of fact well knowne to his Maiesty were denied affirmed or disguised according to passion most contrary to the knowne reall truth therof All these considerations I say many other concurring togeather and representing themselues to his Maiesties wisdome made him to feele infinite comfort in the happy resolution he had taken of being a Catholike and to contemne from that day forward all contentious wrytings of factious sectaryes that care not what they say or wryte so they may therby hould vp their sect and faction Neyther did this euent of Plessy Mornayes conferēce worke those effects only for the openinge his Maiesties eyes and vnderstanding in Religion but of many more besides throughout France wherof though I be not so particularly informed as many others bee yet diuers persons of marke could I name besides the former two that receaued like light grace from almighty God by the same meanes and of great Hugonots became good Catholiks as the L. Baron Saligniac Liefetennant for the K. of the countrey of Lymoge togeather with his wife daughter of the Chauncelour intituled Del Hospital and sister to the Archbishopp of Ais. The L. Baron du Bonneuald a great noble man in Lymosin togeather with another Baron of Gascoigne whose name occurreth not at this present though I haue seene the narration of his conuersion wrytten out of France Monsieur du Sansay Entendent ouer the Kings Finances in France Diuers cheefe learned men also and among them some Ministers as namely Monsieur Caiette late Minister and Preacher to the Kings sister marryed to the Prince of Loraine togeather with diuers of her cheefe officers amongst which was Monsieur du lac de Barn Monsieur Rebeul Monsieur Sponde th' elder two great learned men and another Sponde brother to the former no lesse learned who at this day hath the care of the Popes library in Rome togeather with a nephew of Iohn Caluyn conuerted entertayned like wise by his
downe the state of this controuersie so darkely for yf I had not explaned the matter somewhat before who would heere haue vnderstood wherin the difficulty lieth for what sense do make those words in Latyn and not englished bonum est confidere in Domino c. and si negligentes fuerint but all this is of art and fraud to dazell the Readers eyes that he vnderstand not the falsity wherin Plessis was taken For yf his proctor O. E. had sett downe the true words of the controuesie as I did before his question had byn aunswered of it selfe for who but a simple fellow will put in doubt but that the words before rehearsed yf their children be negligent be of cheife importance to be putt in or left out seing they do solue all the difficulty For yf the children of Saints be negligent saith Saint Hierome then vvill not the only prayers of their parents saue them but yf they be diligent and do cooperate also of their owne parts then will they auayle them as S. Chrysostome in like manner declared in the former passage Consider then how true substantial this first defence of O. E. is which maketh his entrance with so blynd false relation of the controuersy it selfe and how well he deserueth to be an aduocate for others that so marreth his clieÌ„ts cause euen at the beginning But let vs heare his second defence of the same charge or rather his second euasion yf it be better then the first Besides saith he the ordinary glosse doth rehearse these words no otherwise then the L. Plessis quoteth them whome I thinke the Mathureux Bishopp of Eureux will not charge with falsification This supply is taken out of Plessis owne discourse sent from Saumur after his flight from Paris and it sheweth that O. E. had read the same and therby is inexcusable when he dissembleth yt as before in voluntary mistakinge the second place out of Durand and vpon diuers other occasions but to the point Yf the glosse vpon Ezechiel did cyte the words of S. Hierome dismembred as Plessis doth yt were in no wise a iust excuse for him First for that the glosse vseth to cyte short peeces of sentences as yt serueth to purpose for explicatioÌ„ of words in the text but Plessis tooke vpon him to sett downe a whole place out of S. Hierome for impugning prayer to Saints desceased and so cyted them verbatim and at large vntill he came to the words that made against him to witt that Saints prayers will not help their children yf they be negligent which condition yet the glosse omitteth not but expresseth yt in other equiualent words thus yf they follow not the faith and works of their parents Wherfore this shift helpeth neyther Plessis nor his proctor any thing at all And as for the Malheureux B. of Eureux he may perchance be called malheureux that is to say vnluckie to the Hugonots of France for that hauinge byn once so cheefe a man of their party hath since his conuersion so learnedly luckily battered their sect as no man more in France nor perhaps in Europe and they do well feele the blowes but otherwise the reproach is foolish to call him vnlucky And this is all which O. E. can diuise to bring forth for defence or excuse of the falsification obiected in leauinge out S. Hieroms restriction yf children be negligent but now let vs heare another obiection made by the Bishop answered by O. E. It was also heere obiected saith he that Hieromes words in Ezechiel make nothing against prayers to Saints but it must be remembredâ— that the controuersy heere was not whetherâ— M. Plessis had vvell concluded out of that place but vvhether he had rightly alleaged yt c. Well Syr and we haue shewed now that he alleaged it not rightly hauinge left out the principall clause that he should haue put in and if yow graunt also as yow seeme thervnto enclyned that he hath not rightly concluded then is he dooble false to witt both in alleagation conclusion but somwhat I hope yow will diuise to excuse his collection and conclusion though the authors words themselues be against it Lett vs see then what yt is Besides that saith he vve answere that it is no vveake argument to conclude thus as Plessis doth out of S. Hierome vve must not trust in the prayers of men and therfore are not to rely vpon the prayers of men departed this life But I say to the contrary that it is a weake and wicked argument to conclude thus as the words lye in S. Hierome vve must not rely vpon the prayers of men though neuer so holy yf vve be negligent of our owne parts ergo vve must not trust in the prayers of Saints departed though vve be neuer so diligent to liue vertuously our selues this I say were an absurde manner of argument and conclusion and yet this is the argument and conclusion of Plessis and of O. E. for impugning prayers to Saints deceased against which false conclusion the Bishop in his refutation of Plessis reply doth alleadge aboue a dozen most plaine and effectuall places out of S. Hierome S. Chrysostome and other Fathers which plainly and perspiciously do approue the doctrine and practise of prayer to Saints deceased in their dayes and O. E. durst not take vpon him to aunswere any one of them but pullinge downe his hatt ouer his eyes passed by them as he had not seene them But let vs heare his last conclusion Finally saith he Hierome wryting vpon the epistle to the Galathians doth flatly demne prayers made to Saints departed and for dead men sayinge Dum in hoc saeculo sumus c. VVhilst vve are in this vvorld vve may help one another by prayers or counsells but vvhen we come before the trihunall of Christ neither Iob nor Daniell nor Nâ—â— can pray for any man but euery one shall beare his owne burden And do you see what plaine places these fellowes bring forth and how flatly they conclude This place yf yow remember was alleaged by Plessis in the conference answered by the Bishop that being meant euidently of the day of iudgement made nothinge against prayer before that day nor could he reply any thinge at that tyme nor did he afterward in his discourse as appeareth by the Bishops refutation fol. 146. and 147. but only stood vpon his vaine distinction and refuge of lyuinge and dead Saints which shift to auoyde most euident authorityes of the Fathers the Bishopp refuteth dy diuers places alleaged out of S. Hierome himselfe one namely against Vigilantius where he obiecteth to that heretike the very same words vsed heere by his scholler O. E. Dicis in libello tuo quod dum viuimus c. Thou saist saith he in thy booke that vvhilst vve are in this life vve may pray one for another but that after death no mans prayer shal be heard
somtymes be taken for the same and then that the clause omitted was not of such importance after both these refuges largely confuted by the Bishopp as in part yow may see before vpon the examen of this place sentence was giuen against him by consent of all the deputyes which O. E. would now gladly haue reuersed Let vs see his good reasons and arguments he bringeth for the same To the first obiection of Translating falsely Images for Idolls O. E. first answereth thus As yf euery one saith he that doth translate amisse were to be charged with falsification or as yf all badd translations of the old Latyn interpreter of the Bible were so many falsifications And is not this a substantiall answere we do not say Syr Mathew that all erroneous translations be falsifications yf they be of meere error without malice but yf yt be with plaine intention to deceaue the reader and to make him apprehend one thing for another in fauour of their heresies then can yt not be denyed but that yt is falsification and wicked deceyte as heere now to translate the word Idoll in Theodorete by the word Image leauinge out those other words adored by the pagans for Gods wherby his meaninge was declared that he meant not of Christian Images but of pagan Idolls Was not this deceyt in Plessis and was not this cosenage in willfull corruption resolue yow the case out of your diuinity And where our English Sectaryes at this day in their translatioÌ„s of scripture in their Bibles do translate one and the selfe same word out of Hebrew Greeke and Latyn diuersly accordinge as yt serueth to their purposes is it not truly falsification as for example the selfe same Greeke word Idoll and Idolator they translate in some places so and in other Image and Imageworshippers the Greeke word signifyinge tradition whersoeuer traditions are reprehended they translate yt tradition but whersoeuer they are commended yt is turned into ordinances instructions c. Whersoeuer Priests are reprehended or spoken euill of there the word Priest is neuer omitted but where they are spokeÌ„ well of there must come in the words Elders Ministers and the like Though the Greeke Hebrew words be the selfe same as in the other place And almost infinite other such examples you may read learnedly laid togeather in the discouery of Maister Gregory Martyn of hereticall corruptions in translation of the scriptures And thus much to O. E. his first answere let vs see his second Besides this saith he Maister Plessis offered to prooue and most true it is that euery Image hauing idolatrous or heathen worshipp done vnto yt is Idolum And who denyeth this Syr Mathew can yow or yours proue that the reuerence we do to the sacred Images of Christ his Saints is idolatrous or heathenist Then may yow condemne all those auncient Fathers with the vniuersall Church of their tyme for heathenist Idolators which are alleaged by the Bishop in his reply to Plessis discourse and shewed out of their owne words testimonyes that they vsed Images with this Christian hononrâ— and worshipp which we talke of in the most florishing time of Gods Church wherof themselues were the cheefest flowers as namely to recyte some as they ly in his booke Prudentius Cassianus Paulinus Gregorius Nissenus Basil Theodorete Hierome Gregorius Turonensis Gregory the great Euagrius Chrysostome Bede Damascen and others to whose authorityes and sentences O. E. answereth heere not one word but letteth them slipp as though he had neuer heard of them and this is his common tricke when he hath nothing to reply yet notwithstanding shall yow heare him bragg and vaunt anon when the skyrmish is ended as yf he had fully answered all and playd his prise with great manhood And thus much about the first falsification in translatinge Image for Idoll wherin O. E. hath valiantly holpen his client as yow see Lett vs now examine what succour he geueth him for the second charge to witt for leauinge out the words adored by pagans for Gods which should haue explicated Theodoretts plaine meaning that he vnderstood not of Christian Images when he spake against such kind of Idolls To the second obiection is answered saith he vvordsâ— gentibus culta being sett downe in the allegation do rather hurt then help the Papists that vvorshipp Images vvith kissinge croachinge censinge prayinge as the gentills did their Idolls those reasons therfore that are forcible against the Idolls of the Gentills are also most forcible against the Popish vvorshipp of Images So saith he And this is all the substance of his aunswere to this obiection wherin to omit his intemperat raylinge I would haue euery man of reason to consider the folly falshood of his answere falshood in tellinge vs only that these words à gentibus culta were left out wheras Theodoret saith à gentibus culta pro dijs culta worshipped by pagans and worshipped for Gods wherin standeth the whole point of the controuersie His folly is apparant in telling vs that if these words had byn truly sett downe and not left out by Plessis yt had byn worse for vs geuinge vs therby to vnderstand that Plessis of compassion not to hurt vs more left them out but yet at leastwise this good we should haue had therby yf he had left them in as he found them that the place of Theodorett cyted by him against Images would plainly haue appeared impertinent to the purpose for that yt treated only of pagan Idolls and this had bâ—n help inough for the Papists against Plessis and O. E. who from this place of Theodorete corrupted by them would impugne Christian Images now let the Christian reader iudge what help Plessis and O. E. had need to haue to deliuer them from the note of so false dealinge And this shal be sufficient for this briefe examen of the 9. places aforesaid out of which O. E. being once gotten harken I pray yow how he craketh boasteth and vaunteth If then saith he the aduersary could not gett any ground of Maister Plessis in these places vvhich vvere chosen as principall and placed first as places of most aduantage we may well suppose yf the triall had proceeded that he would haue receaued farre more disgrace c. And againe yf a gentleman no professed diuine vpon such vnequall tearmes was able to make head against his aduersaryes much better I hope should we be able to resist yf professed diuines might procure an indifferent triall c. And yet further most ridiculous it is to thinke that this Thrasonicall Chalenger was able to make good that cause which neyther with lyinge forginge facinge nor any witt or pollicy the greatest clarks of that faction are able to maintayne And in his preface to the refutation of my relation It will plainly appeare by examination of the particulars that the L. of Plessis vvas most vniustly charged
therof and yet would he auouch that no true Catholike had vsed the same but being reprehended for yt and told of his lyinge by his aduersary diuers Fathers cited for proofe therof and his owne Maister Caluyn and his brother VVillett for acknowledginge the same yet commeth he now to affirme and print yt againe in his second edition of his chalenge and dissembleth peruerteth and shifteth of the authorityes both of the said Fathers Caluyn himselfe as though they had neuer ben obiected against him And what will yow say to this manner of dealinge will you aduenture your soule with such a man or will yow giue creditt any more to his fond crakinge or vauntinge aboue mentioned But we are ouerlong in this third part cannot well get out of it through the multitude of aduantages that Sutcliffe geueth vs in pursuinge him in this his chase of defendinge himselfe yet must we sound retreat and say only a word or two of the fourth part of this his new booke conteyninge as yow haue heard a heap or fardell of recriminations gathered togeather against auncient Popes Councells synods historiographers and other Catholike wryters and lastly against Cardinall Bellarmyne Cardinall Baronius and F. Parsons by which ostentation of names and authors he would make men beleeue that all the world were full of corruptions and falsifications in wrytinge and consequently that those of his and of his fellowes are little to be respected but when the occasion shall come to aunswere this second edition at large the differences wil be shewed and how vainly this little enuious mouse hath gone about to gnibble at Catholike authors edges of their garments particularly at the wrytings of the most famous learned and honourable men of our tyme Cardinall Bellarmine and Cardinall Baronius who haue so beaten downe heresy with their most excellent works as by allusion we may say of them in respect of Sutcliffe ipsi conterunt caput tuum tu vero insidiaris eorum calcaneis they haue broken thy head and thou doest byte at their heeles Of the third which is F. Persons and the obiections heere brought against his wrytings we had thought to haue spoken somewhat more particularly but lacke of tyme and roome maketh vs also to albreuiate this yet somewhat for example sake shal be said Sutcliffe nameth two books of his the first entituled A briefe discourse conteyninge reasons why Catholiks refuse to go to Church The next is called A Christian directory and commonly knowne by the name saith he of Parsons Resolution Against the former booke he bringeth two reasons as wise as his head can deuise the one that he promised to make three parts of that booke and performed but one abusinge saith he both his frends and aduersaryes with his false promises The other reason is saith he for that to persuade men not to go to ProtestaÌ„ts Church must needs stand vpon this supposition that the Popes Religion is true and therfore he should first haue proued this principle before he had gone about to giue reasons to stand stedfast therin But now saith he yf Parsons can say nothinge why the Religion in England is not Catholike and Apostolicall then all his reasons fall to the ground These two reasons do well declare what a man of worth Sutcliffe is And not to shew on my parte distrust in the Readers iudgement I will not go about to refute such vanityes For if this last reason haue any force yt proueth also that no Protestant Preacher or wryter may exhort any of his Religion to constancy perseuerance patience humility or any other vertue except he proue first all that Religion to be true But lett vs passe to the other booke perhaps his obiections wil be stronger against that His directory also saith he is a most idle and vayne discourse so idle and vaynè do seeme all treatises of piety to this prophane minister yt should consist of three parts but as the fashion is of three promised he keepeth backe two performeth the third very simply This is his censure of that booke And presently as he is fertile in inuention though foolish in his election he commeth with eyght choise accusations against yt The first is for that he proueth there is a God and that Christian Religion is true aboue all other Religions and that he treateth against dispayre of Gods mercyes tentations and too much feare of persecution VVhich rather doth hinder a man saith Sutcliffe from leading a Christian life then help him to resolue The second That the greatest part saith he is taken out of Loartes Stella Granatensis and other such authors The third for that yt argueth Catholikes to be badd Christians that they must be taught there is a God hell heauen and the like The fourth That Sutcliffe doth not find that yt hath made hitherto any one Christian or directed him to the way of lyfe but many yong men to the gallowes The fifth that yt hath not brought Father Persons him selfe yet to a good resolution nor to enter into Religion The sixt For that his discourse to proue that there is a God and but one true Religion and that there is a heauen hell among Christians already well persuaded is impertinent The seauenth For that yt is diuided into speculation and practice as yf saith he a man could practise that is not entred into the exercise of Religion or as yf resolution were not farre differeÌ„t from practise The eight last for that yt is fraught with idle discourses the principall point so weakely proued that yt will rather make Christians to doubt of Religion then atheists to beleeue These are Sutcliffes reasons which shew the mans depth and conforme to these are his obiections picked out of the forsaid two books about allegation wherof I would gladly haue sett downe some halfe adozen at least for example so to haue seene the weight and substance therof but that I am forced to make an end referring my selue to a fuller exameÌ„ when his reply shall come forth Now then only I am to aduertise the Reader that he weigh with himselue what manner of man Sutcliffe is in these his wrytings he vaunteth and chalengeth as yow see as yf he were agyant and when he cometh to the gryping he is iust nothing he offereth to answere for all as Iewell Fox Peter Martyr Ridley Fulke Plessis Mornay whome els yow will besides but when yt cometh to the triall he is able neither to make good for them nor for himselfe and is iust like a knight of the post that will offer to be surety for ten thousand pounds when all his owne substance is not worth ten shillings His writings are loose ragged negligent barrâ—n obscure and vnsauery without substance either of learning prudeÌ„ce sharpnes or good stile yf yow looke them ouer yow shall find them for the most part fraught furnished only with bare assertions