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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	speak_v	time_n	word_n	2,779	5	3.8641	3	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A20940	A conference held at Paris betweene Father Gontier a Iesuite, and Doctor Du Moulin seconded by the Lady of Salignac. Together with Doctor Du Moulin his answere to Gontier his letter to the King concerning the subiect of this conference. By Peter Du Moulin Doctor of Diuinitie, and minister of the Word of God in the church of Paris. Translated according to the French copie printed in Paris.; Veritable narré de la conference entre les Sieurs Du Moulin et Gontier. English	Du Moulin, Pierre, 1568-1658.; Gontery, Jean, 1562-1616. aut	1615 (1615)	STC 7319; ESTC S111071	14,986	30

A CONFERENCE HELD AT PARIS betweene Father Gontier a Iesuite and DOCTOR Du Moulin SECONDED BY THE LADY OF SALIGNAC Together with Doctor Du Moulin his answere to GONTIER his letter to the KING concerning the subiect of this CONFERENCE By Peter Du Moulin Doctor of Diuinitie and Minister of the Word of GOD in the Church of PARIS Translated according to the French Copie printed in PARIS LONDON Printed for IOHN BARNES and are to be sold at the signe of the Pyde-Bull neere Saint Austines gate 1615. TO THE VERY GODLY AND RIGHT NOBLE Lady my Lady ELIZABETH WINVVOOD Wife to the Right honourable Sir RALPH WINVVOOD Knight one of his Maiesties Priuy Counsell and Principall Secretary to the State MAdam it may bee thought a double recompence in you amongst many workes and many writers if you would onely spare employments to peruse and giue in charity a milde opinion of this But I intending to your selfe a recompence for late and earely loues vouchsafed by your honourable Husband dare honestly prefixe your name to this and thinke it woorth your patronage When as indeede omnipotence it selfe cannot be well entituled to any thing but truth then certainely it should be triumph to defend a truth conuincing And such a truth is now commended to your fauor which if it may acquit my zeale vnto your Knight and You of thanks though not of satisfaction For hauing thought your selfe most worthy to defend this truth opposed by one of your own sexe almost of the same rank I shall according to my wish esteeme it sutable to your person whom with your honourable Husband I doe now leaue to Heauens disposall which may enable me to discharge a further duty Your Ladyships most deepely bound IOHN BARNES A TRVE NARRATION of the conference betweene Du Moulin and Gontier seconded by my Lady BARONESSE of Salignac PETER Du Moulin hapning about three of the clocke in the after-noone to meete with Monsieur de Liembrune before his gate in Marsh streete was requested by him to steppe vp along with him vnto his chamber where hee was no sooner come but he saw the roome full of Ladies among which one of them at the first on set entreated him to explaine the 31. article in the confession of the faith of the reformed Churches Du Moulin answered that if it pleased her to take the paines to come home to his house he would do the best he could to satisfie her Presently vpon that another Lady replied and said that we ought at all times be readie to giue an account of our faith that Du Moulin ought not deny to instruct them herein which did demand it of him whereunto Du Moulin answered that hee knew well enough they did not aske this for any desire they had to be instructed and to dispute about religion with women which tattle altogether and after they are gone publish what they please were to wrong the truth of religion One among them replied that she could not satisfie her selfe as concerning this Article and that it was often obiected to her how that our Ministers were not able to giue an account of their Mission and Vocation Du Moulin answered that he wondred much how she forgat to aske a reason of them for the iustifying of theirs and that had she so done she should haue found them lesse able to satisfie her that euery one which presumes to aske a reason of another for the maintaining of his vocation ought to be sure that he is able to iustifie his owne and be readie at any time to yeeld a reason He had no sooner spoken these wordes but in comes Gontier with two others which brought many bookes along with them Gontier at his first entrance asked what was the matter what it was that was said there Why my Lady heere said Du Moulin requires a reason of me to iustifie my Mission and I told her that she should haue demanded the like of you for the iustifying of yours Gontier This is onely a shift to rid your necke out of the coller Du Moulin It is no shift at all for whosoeuer is so bold as to demaund a reason of another for his vocation bindes himselfe thereby to giue an account of his owne But if you will confesse that you are not able to defende yours I will presently heere take vpon mee to defende mine Gont. Pray sir be not cholericke you doe not heare me acknowledge any such matter Du Moul. I speake nothing but what is apparantly true and do here vndertake to proue that you haue no vocation Gont. Who hath giuen you authoritie to speake so saucily to your superiours Du Moul. As for your dignitie I denie that you haue any such superioritie ouer me But to the point I heere maintaine that you haue no commission for you call your selues Priests and haue receiued this order of priesthood in this manner which is that the Bishop hauing anointed your fingers and imposed his hands saith vnto you Receiue power to offer vp sacrifice to God and to celebrate the Masse as well for the liuing as the dead By this meanes he hath made you Sacrificers to sacrifice Iesus Christ I demaund of you therefore in what place of Scripture Bishops are authorized to establish such sacrificing Priests in the Church Gont. That is easily prooued out of the second and fifth Chapters of the first Epistle to Timothie bring mee a new Testament hither hereupon a Testament was brought him wherein he read these two Chapters which was not a little tedious to the standers by and finding nothing there that he desired said to one of his company which was his assistant go and fetch me my Concordaunce which being brought he stood turning the leaues along time without saying a word Du Moulin being weary of staying for his answere said vnto him if this disgrace had lighted vpon me to haue beene put to silence and to send for my Concordaunce I should be ashamed euer to shew my face more in any honest company wherupon Monsieur de Liembrune tould Gontier Sir I am ashamed to see that which I do for you haue often told me that the Ministers durst not speak a word before you and now I see you driuen to such straites that you haue not a word to say After halfe an houres silence I sought said Gontier a place of Scripture wherein there is mention made of imposition of handes I will ease you said Du Moulin of the paines and presently turned to the place which is in the 4. Chapter of the first Epistle to Timothy Gontier red the words which were these Despise not the gift that is in thee which was giuen thee by prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the company of the elders Note withall that these elders were Priests and that Greeke word imports as much Du Moul. This doth not proue at all that Bishops haue authoritie from God to establish sacrificers in the Church Gontier in steede of answering

vnawares then when I thought of nothing lesse then conferring with him but hee came prepared and furnished with bookes hauing agreed on this conference before hand with the Ladies I am also giuen to vnderstand by the report of men worthy of credit that a few daies after the conference Gontier dining with my Lord the Prince of Conde and my Lord the Duke of Espernon that the Prince askt Gontier as concerning this matter telling him there went a speech abroad thereof which tended little to his praise and that the sayd Iesuite imputed his little resistance to the great noise there was made but especially to the earnest entreatie of an aduocate yet there was no aduocate nor anie stirre but onelie towards the latter end the three first houres being past ouer with a great silence euerie one looking that Master Gontier should speake whilst hee did nothing but turne the leaues of his Concordance and made as though he did write Now to iustifie this which I speake to bee true I call the assistants for witnesses which sate there from the beginning to the end and God knowes that in the discourse which I haue published I haue dealt as faithfully as I cold possible hauing shew'd it ready writen to those which were present at it to the end that if I had forgotten my selfe in any thing they should correct what was amisse yea I haue yet some part of Mr. Gontiers arguments written with his owne hand of the which hee doth not so much as repeat one word in his letter wherein he reduces our conference to a douzen lines not for breuities sake for he breakes out into other vnprofitable discourses but by an apparant shift for in our conference there were two points aboue others that we chiefely handled one whether Bishops were authorized from God to establish Sacrificers for to sacrifice Iesus Christ the other whether it could possibly be prooued that Iesus Christ did offer vp his bloud to God in the Eucharist because that although his bloud were really shedde yet it is not a sacrifice if the bloud be not offered vnto God These two points beeing of such importance how comes it to passe that Mr. Gontier writing to the King doth not satisfie them nor so much as mention a word of them at all did he thinke his Maiesty vnworthy to be throughly informed in the truth of the matter or why doth he frustrate the people of this their expectation And if in the conference hee had not a word to speake heereupon why doth he not yet repaire his credit heerein by his writings vpon farther studie why is he so loth to speake anie more of the passage in Saint Cyprian which is in the 9. Epist of the first booke alleadged by my Ladie Baronnesse of Salignac doth hee not perceiue by this that he hath spoken nothing worth the considering but that a ladie hath spoken that which deserues to be weighed Nay he shewes that he neuer read the place seeing that he produceth it so disguised and which is more saies in the margent of his booke that this is the 66. chapter when Saint Cyprians Epistles are not distinguished by chapters doubtlesse my Ladie of Salignac who hath ten times more learning for a Ladie then he for a Doctor could haue taken him vp for this Saint Cyprian indeed speaks in the place alleadged of alters and sacrifices but by sacrifices he vnderstands the presents which the people offered on the table of which one part was laid aside for the celebration of the Eucharist wherefore in his Sermon of almes he takes vp the rich men which men which came to receiue without offering anie sacrifice Doest thou come saith he to the Lords Table without a sacrifice doest thou take part of the sacrifice which the poore hath offered and in the same ninth Epistle in the honour of the brethren which offer vp offrings as if they did receiue the tithes of fruits Let them not depart from the Altar and sacrifices As concerning prayer for the dead which began to be in vse in the time of Tertullian and of which Saint Cypryan speakes in this Epistle this is a praier which at this daie the Church of Rome doth allowe of no more then wee seeing that then they praied for the Saints and Martyrs and that it shall neuer bee found that any one praied for the deliuerie of soules out of purgatorie but onely for the enfranchisement of soules kept in prison and sleeping in the bosome of peace of which you haue a feeling in your masse where the Priest praies in this manner for the dead Lord thinke on thy seruants which sleepe in the bosome of peace Amongst the number of which the ancient Church doth reckon the Saints who also as they thought in the next age to St. Cyprian should bee purged by fire in the last day of iudgement not exempting so much as the virgin Mary herselfe as wee haue shewed by a great number of proofes in the last chapter of a booke entituled The waters of Silo. Neuerthelesse Master Goutier least hee should haue nothing at all to say doth accuse mee for denying our owne Bible How so because saith hee that when he did alleadge these words vnto me which is shed for vs I said this was to be vnderstood in the future A ridiculous calumnie Rather on the contrary I say that our Bible doth turne the words more faithfully then that of the Church of Rome seeing that it is in the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is shed and not shall bee shed as the Bible of the Church of Rome and the masse haue it But it is one thing to aske what is the best translation of the words of Iesus Christ another thing to aske what is the meaning of the words for our translation onely is true but the Romish Bible doth expound the meaning and intention of Iesus Christ which is to promise that his bloud shall be shed for vs on the crosse failing in the turning but not in the drift of his words as if when Iesus Christ saith Ioh. 10. ver 15. I lay downe my life for my sheepe one should translate it thus I will lay downe or leaue my life hee indeed should lay downe the true meaning of his words which although it were true yet ought it not to be inserted in the text Let this suffice for an answer to Master Gontiers letters letters without sinewes without ioynts puft vp with a childishly affected kinde of swelling which we do therfore here pricke to the end we might bring it downe Had he no bodie to present them to but his Maiestie The Pagans in their sacrifices did neuer offer an Ape vnto their gods but these men presume to offer apish to yes to so great a Prince which holds the place of God among vs who being wonderfull in his patience since he suffereth himselfe to be thus serued is no lesse wonderfull in the clearenesse of his iudgement For hee knowes well that