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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A92173	A most grave, and modest confutation of the errors of the sect, commonly called Brownists, or: Seperatists. Agreed upon long since by the joynt consent of sundry, godly, and learned ministers of this kingdome, then standing out and suffering in the cause of inconformity; and now published in a time of need, for the good of Gods Church, and the better setling of mens unstable mindes in the truth against, the subtile insinuations, and plausible pretences of that pernicious evill. Published by W. Rathband, minister of the Gospell.	Rathband, William, d. 1695.	1644 (1644)	Wing R299; Wing M2893; Thomason E31_11; ESTC R209828	84,262	92

It is well knowne not only that many of our Ministers are usually called by such names as the Scripture giveth but also that the Law of the Land in the book of conlecration giveth us the name of Pastors Teachers and Rectors Thirdly Though the names objected against us have beene used by the Papists and therefore are very unfit to bee given to the Ministers of the Gospell Yet see we not that either by their originall or use they have any such contagion in them as should poy son and infect all the offices and duties whereunto they are applyed Fourthly Fourthly Especially seeing they are imposed upon us we delight not in them Gen. 41.45 ●●or 1.7 8. Though there names were of themselve of Antichristian original and use Yet if they be imposed upon any such as take no pleasure in them we see not how they can any wait 〈◊〉 pollute them and their offices then Ioseph and Daniel were polluted by 〈◊〉 and Idolatrous names that were given them or than private Christians are made the worse by the odious termes of Precisians Purity 〈◊〉 is Martinists or then our brethren themselves are by the names of Brownists and Barrowists which they so usually are called by and so much dislike Fifthly Fifthly Our Doctrines may bee good though wee were all called by and did delight in those names Matth. 23.2 Their third reason that we are called to read stinted imposed prayers if neither the Law nor the people did give us any other names then such as are popish and we also did glory in them our selves Yet makes this nothing to the condemnation of our office and doctrine seeing that though the name of Pharisie were not of divine institution Yet Christ Himselfe giveth approbation to the office of preaching which they exercised Their third reason against our office and function is That we are called to reade stinted prayers that are devised and imposed by men Concerning which they say page 62. of their discovery to the Booke of common prayers all the Priests of the Land are swonn to use it in manner and forme prescribed and in the booke ●s in 〈◊〉 the whole form and substance of their ministr●●●●e and in 〈◊〉 3. 〈…〉 book of common prayer is the very ground worke of their faith 〈◊〉 and Ministerie and in place 〈◊〉 them of the Word of God And in the 64 page the Word of God may not be taught but when th●● booke hath first ●een●read and hath had the preheminence To all which was give this answer Is also insufficient for a prescript form of prayer is lawfull Secondly even though it be imposed First that a see and prescript forme of prayer may lawfully be used as we have proved already in our answer to their second objection against out Church Secondly If to have a prescript forme of prayer is lawfull in it selfe we see not how this should make it unlawfull that it is prescribed by the Church authorized by the Christian Magistrate for which we also referre our selves to that answer wee have already given to then second Objection against our Church Thirdly though that by statute the Ministers bee commanded to read prayer Yet doe we denie that is enjoyned as any e●●entiall part of our office seeing that in the f●●●ie of ordination appointed by Law there is no such thing 〈◊〉 of us 〈…〉 are there only charged with the preaching of the Word prayer and 〈…〉 of the Sacraments and discipline of Christ And that statute which ratifieth the Communion booke respecteth of the substance of our Office but order onely and uniformiti●● Neither doth any Law of our Land deny him to be a true and lawfully Minister which preacheth the word aright though he never reade prayers according to that booke Whereof the practise of our Church is a sufficient proofe wherein there are many Ministers allowed that never medled with that booke and many both Schoole-Masters and others by the Bishops are permitted to reade it publikely though they be not in the account of Ministers And which is more private men may 〈◊〉 Statute reable it in their private houses Their fourth reason viz. that wee are called to read ungodly prayers is also insufficient for 1. We have Ministers that read none of those prayers that for matter or forme can be proved ungodly All which proveth evidently the reading of the Booke of Common Prayer is not taken to be of the substance of our ministerie nor absolutly necessary to the being of a Minister in our Church And therefore we cannot but wonder to read those accusations which are so notoriously known to be false and slanderons in their writings who pretend such love to sinceritie and are so sharpe censurers even of the secret faults of other men Their fourth reason against the office we exercise is That wee are called to reade ungodly prayers whereunto we answer First It is most cleare that many Ministers in our Church use not to reade any of those prayers which you account for the matter ungodly and that therefore this can bee no good reason against all our Ministers Secondly Secondly none are in the ordination called and enjoyned to read such 2 Kings 16.11 If all did use to read them Yet are they not in their Ordination called to reade them as hath beene above proved so that if they reade them the fault is in them and not in the office they exercise Thirdly If they were enjoyned to read ungodly prayers and did accordingly read them this cannot make their Ministerie voyd or Antichristian for then Vriah should have beene no Priest for that he made an Alter at Jerusalem like that in all points which was at Damascus whereas it is evident that he continued the Priest of the Lord still Notwithstanding that great fault which was beyond all comparison greater than this that is in question Their fift reason against our office is That we are called to read Homilies and Injuctions and whereunto we answer First That neither do the most of our Ministers read Homilies Neither doth any law of the Land require that Preachers should read them Secondly If Law did enjoyne them to all and all did read them yet are they not enjoyned in our ordination nor accounted by Law as substantiall parts of our office neither is their any doubt made in our Land no not by them that doe presse the precise observation of Law in this point whether he be a lawfull Minister who doth not read either Homilies or Injunctions Their sixth reason against our office is That we are called to marry burie and Church women To which also we answer First That it is no part of our office whereunto in ordination we are called to doe these things Secondly as the Ministers use to blesse the Marriages that are made in our Land so make we no doubt but that it is lawfull and fit as a matter not of substance but of good order that they should not doe

borne but stedfastly opposed to their great reproach dammage and danger many wayes the corruptions in our Church-government worship and Leiturgie and have beene lights and leaders to these latter times therein yet alwayes in a peaceable and regular way as not on the one side to subject themselves to suspitious inventions so on the other not sinfully to separate from the Communion and true worship of Churches accounting it more agreeable to all rules of pietie charitie and Christian prudence to tolerate for the time what they could not mend rather than to rent and teare all in peeces to an utter ruine To conclude though perhaps some few particulars in this treatise may seeme more questionable yet for the maine I doubt not but the Authors have held close to the truth both in their owne positions and in opposing their adversaries By which therefore good Reader thou maiest reape much benefit for thy better settling in these unsettled times if thou be capable thereof and if the Lord shall please to adde his blessing thereunto Which hee shall never cease to pray for who is all that he is truly thine in Him W R. THE PREFACE of the AUTHORS of the Treatise ensuing to the READER THE holy Apostle Saint Paul writing unto the Galathians these words Brethren If any man be fallen by occasion into any fault you which are spirituall restore such a one with the spirit of meeknesse considering thy selfe lest thou also be tempted both sheweth the danger of falling whereunto they are subject who stand in the Church of God and prescribeth the dutie of recovering those that are fallen unto such as are spirituall That is to say as are furnished with gifts thereunto with the manner how all that ought to be performed two necessary points in our judgements to be considered and much tending to the preservation of the good and happy estate of the Church of God for how cometh it to passe that Sathan so farre prevaileth against it but for that weake men consider not the danger of falling untill they be downe and almost past recovering those that are fallen either not at all or not untill they be well neere without remedy It is therefore one especiall part of holy wisedome for men who think they stand to take heed lest they fall and therefore to seeke to kneow the depth of Sathans pollicies and subtilties and then the effectuall means for the preventing of them Into which if they carefully enquire they shall finde that though hee seeke to draw even those that have shined as starres in the Church from heaven unto the earth yet that he much more earnestly laboureth to make them wandring starres forsaking the place wherein they seemed to be fixed to give shine and direction to others that is though hee laboureth and endeavoureth to bring men from their first love and zeale unto a lukewarmnesse or key coldnesse in the Church yet he rather desireth to lead them into a fierie spirit and indiscreet zeale from the Church and societie of Saints which no doubt he doth as for many other causes so for these two 1. That he might by their departure who have seemed zealous and godly professors shake the faith of others and cause them to doubt that they are not in the true Church where they may finde directions toward the kingdome of heaven and at last to flie from it as from Babylon And 2. that he might deprive those men themselves of the happy meanes of the recovery which they might have had easily applyed had they beene in the Church and remained in the fellowship thereof Hence it is that in the Church of God those who breaking the holy bands of love and faith have like unkinde children forsaken her their naturall mother and oft pleaded with her as a strumpet which never was done in more convenient manner then of late by certain of our brethren who having been brought forth of the wombe and brought up in the bosome of the Church of England have not onely renounced as a stepmother but condemned her as one of the daughters yea the eldest daughter of the very whore of Babylon railing on her as if she living in continuall spirituall fornications brought forth sonnes and daughters not unto Christ but unto Antichrist his adversary By which their faults and fallings as they have deprived themselves of those gracious blessings which they did long and might have still enjoyed amongst us to their soules health and made the meanes of their recovery more hard and difficult so have they troubled and disquieted many remaining in the body of our Church and of strong men in the truth brought them to be children again in understanding easie to bee carried about with every blast of diverse and strange doctrines how contrary soever to the truth according unto godlinesse either taught or received by them The case thus standing we take it to be our duties being members and Ministers of this Church having by Gods grace received some though a small measure of gifts fit thereunto as to maintaine the credit of the Church wherein we live And to justifie the practise of our ministerie therein so farre forth as truth will permit so chiefely to seeke and endeavour both the recoverie of those that are strayed from the sheepfold of Christ amongst us and also the stay of those that are ready to runne after them together with the better grounding and confirming of them who remaine in the flocke with comfort under their shepheards which duty we have endeavoured to performe heretofore by publike preaching and private conferences as occasions hath beene offered and now have bestowed our labours in writing this treatise following to the same end wherein after wee have proved by certaine reasons that our Assemblies are the true Church of God we take upon us to shew First The foure chiefest exceptions they take against our Church for warranting Schisme and separation from us are vaine and frivelous Secondly That the maine grounds they stand upon for the erecting their new Church are weake and slender Thirdly that the best arguments that they use for condemning us and justifying themselves are loose and unsufficient which points as we have gathered out of their printed books and written papers where they were before scattered and brought into one forme and body so have we more plainely and nakedly both proposed and dealt in passing by all impertinent and offensive matters And their flouting declamations petitions exclamations and bitter reviling speeches against our Churches Ministers and people all their reprochfull slanderous profane scornings fearefull blasphemies against the Word preached and Sacraments administred prayers and holy exercises of Religion used in our Assemblies wherewith their writings and printings swell to some bignes as Bladders puffed up with winde All these though wee have given the Reader some taste of their spirit in them yet have wee not in our Treatise stood upon them for that wee judge them not worthy the answer This worke

of ours we commend first unto our brethren departed from us desiring them to read it without partialitie selfe love prejudice or other sinister affections and with meekenesse indifferencie and love of the Truth desire to be informed and readinesse to be reformed where they erre and goe astray It may be that God will give a blessing to it nay sure wee are that he is faithfull that hath promised to give unto those that aske to open to those that knocke and to cause them to find that seeke the truth in sincerity of their hearts especially if to the reading thereof they adjoyne First a review of the books which have beene written by the Ring-leaders of their separations Secondly a view of the persons of whom their Assemblies consist And Thirdly a consideration of the estate wherein their Church now standeth In the review of the bookes which have been written we exhort them with single hearts to examine the spirits where with the authors of them were led in their writing and they shall finde it not to be the good spirit of God which filleth mens hearts with meekenesse humilitie compassion softnesse holinesse and other sanctified affections but that evill spirit of Satan which under colour of zeale of Gods glory hatred of sinne desire of serving God in sincerity thrusteth men whom it hath deceived into pride selfe love rashnesse unnaturall affections uncharitable surmises and most unchristian judgment of their brethren Secondly to weigh wisely what end they proposed to themselves in their writings which will evidently appeare to be not so much the cleering of themselves from the crime of Schisme as the drawing of others to joyne with them and the defacing of our Church which they compare with the most Idolatrous and heathenish Nations that ever were yea with Sodom and Babylon it selfe and the disgracing the Ministers thereof especially those whom heretofore they have most reverenced whom they sort with most wretched Miscreants Iudas Cain Balaam and many other upon whom the spirit of God hath set a fearefull brand of eternall condemnation Thirdly to try carefully the allegations of Scripture wherewith they have fully painted the Margents and with the multitude whereof they have astonished the simple or credulous Readers perswading them that their cause standeth upon the same ground of Gods holy Word and they shall plainely perceive that the places by them alleadged do for the most part prove that which we denie not And if they be brought to confirme the matter in controversie they are either unconscionably or ignorantly wrested against or besides the meaning of the Holy Ghost A second thing which we intreat them to do is to view the persons of whom their Assemblies consist and let them tell us how many of them there bee whom they have brought from grosse ignorance unto true knowledge from infidelitie to holy Faith from profanesse of life to a conscionable walking with God if there bee scarce any amongst them which have not bin of some note in our Churches for holy and sincere profession and if they had no good thing in them which they have not received by the ministerie of those men and in the bosome of those Churches which now they condemne and flie from why then take they the Seale of our ministerie and Church and set it unto their blanke Thirdly we exhort all of them to a survey of their estate wherein they stand which is if that be true which by some of their own hath been reported full of disorder and confusion And indeed how can it otherwise bee whereas they teach that every member of their Church may and ought to stand up against their Ministers and Elders to gainesay them in delivering of doctrine and withstand the other in execution of discipline If he be perswaded the one erreth from the truth and the other faileth in justice is not this to make every member an eye an eare an head And must not men be of Angelicall perfection to preserve unitie where such large libertie is granted unto them A second sort to whom we commend this labour of ours be our brethren also who by the writings doings and sufferings of these deceived men are in danger likewise to bee deceived being brought to halt betweene two opinions These also we pray to read it with an holy purpose to be fully resolved and setled in the truth We hope their labour shall not be in vaine if they will accept from us these few advertisments First That they make not the example of any man seem he never so godly religious and zealous but the Word of God only the rule of their beliefe and life Paul himselfe must be followed no further when the holy precepts of the Word and the examples of the godly joyn together we have the one to teach us the other to incite us to doe our duties Secondly That they carry an humble and lowly conceit of themselves and their gifts That they remember 1 Cor. 8.2 Galath 6.3 that if any man thinke hee knoweth any thing hee knoweth nothing as he ought to know And that if any man seeme to himselfe that he is somewhat when he is nothing he deceaveth himselfe in his imaginations That to this purpose they occupie themselves in consideration of their owne wants and sinnes which cleave so fast unto them rather than in the marking the blemishes noteing the faults that are in others following the counsell of the Apostle Galath 6.4 Let every one prove his owne worke and then shall he have rejoycing in himselfe only and not in another Thirdly that they have a reverend opinion of those men by whose ministerie they have beene begotten unto God or nourished in the truth by whose labours they have beene instructed confirmed and comforted in whose mouthes the Word of God hath beene unto them as a two edged sword entring through them unto the deviding a sunder the soule and spirit the joynts and the marrow that they suffer not a sinfull thought to enter into their heads of their vnlawfull vocations who have their hearts and soules as Seales of their ministery and may say to them as Paul to the Corinthians 1. Cor. 9 1● are yee not my worke in the Lord if I be not an Apostle unto others yet doubtlesse I am unto you for you are the Seale of mine Apostleship in the Lord whereof they should therefore be the more carefull for that it hath bin an ancient and ordinary policie of Satan that hee might cause men to refuse the word brought unto them in the mouthes of the Prophets Apostles and other men of God yea of Christ Himselfe to perswade them that they had no warrant of their vocarions and calling from God Fourthly That if notwithstanding all that is said for their instruction and reformation in this behalfe they keepe a liking of that draught of a Church which our deceived Brethren have framed and commended in their writings and desire to joyne themselves unto their

same rule that we may mind the same thing whereby it appeareth that with those who hold the foundation wee both may and ought to hold and joyne our selves in the things wherein we are agreed notwithstanding our differences in those things that are not fundamentall By all which it is manifest how false and dangerous a doctrine that is which Henry Barrow in the 28. page of his discovery affirmeth that presumptuous sinne with obstinacie joyned thereunto breaketh the covenant with God if he had said it giveth the Lord just cause to cast us off and to make void that covenant whereby hee had bound himselfe unto us wee would have consented But that the everlasting covenant of God is utterly broken by a presumptuous sinne committed with obstinacie if wee should grant wee should condemne the generation of the just and darken much the glory of Gods Mercie who is constant in love towards those whom he hath receaved into covenant even though they bee many times unconstant and unfaithfull unto him And even as an Husband or wife ceaseth not presently to bee an Husband or wife when they have committed adulterie till by just divorce they bee separated so it is in this case as wee have above said Wee have a true Ministerie IN ENGLAND II. EXCEPTION THe second general exception is against the Ministery of our Church which they affirme to be false and Antichristian Concerning which they have these words in the page 146. and 147. of their refutation wee have perused all this rable of the ministerie of the Church of England and have not found any one of them right or almost in any point according to the right Rules of Christs Testament they are all strangers there they belong us to Christs body His Church neither are they 〈◊〉 is members to the Head And in the 147. page of the same back they ●● they say that our Minister is such as can have 〈…〉 God alleadging moreover that the wayes if the 〈◊〉 Church 〈…〉 are the wayes of death and have no promise of salves and in the 147. page they have these words Out of the smoake of the Bottomlesse pit all their Ministers come whe● that fallen st●rre An christ ha● the Key thereof given him to his Kingdome the false Church they have alwayes belonged alwayes served him in his sever 〈◊〉 shapes they have bin alwayes k●it to him as members to the head from him and not from Christ wee all see with our bodily eyes that the Church of England hath received them And in the 158. page of the same book they conclude thus The keeping of these offices cannot now belong unto or serve in Christs Kingdom His Church neither be knit unto Christ as the Head But as the Holy Chost witnesseth of them they have a King over them the Angell of the bottomlesse pit whose name is in Hebrew Abaddon and in Greeke Appollion as in all languages and places they discover ANSWER THat wee have a true Ministerie in this Land But it appeareth that our Ministery is holy and lawfull because the true Church hath received and approved our doctrine Iohn 10.3 5. Ephes 4.11 12 2 Iohn 4.6 2. Many have bin effectually called by our Ministerie And this reason taken from the force of our Ministery and hath force to prove the lawfulnesse of it it may evidently appeare by these reasons A true Church such as we have proved ours to be in our answer to their first exception could neither have received our doctrine at the first nor proved it so long nor have beene continued nourished and built up by it had not wee beene the true faithfull Ministers of Christ Secondly It is evident that many have beene brought by our Ministery to saving knowledge faith and reformation of life For proofe whereof wee appeale first to their owne consciences out of which wee desire them to answer us as in the presence of Almightie God Secondly By the manifest differences that may bee noted betwixt those that have beene taught by a learned Ministerie and those that have bad none who yet should bee in judgement and affection as good or better than the other if the Ministerie under which the other lived were not true and lawfull That this reason taken from the fruit of our labours is sufficient to prove wee are the true Ministers of God As appeareth in this 1. That the Lord in his most holy Word maketh this the most proper note of such ministerie as is according to his owne heart c Ier. 3.15 23 31. Iohn 10.25 Secondly In that the ministerie is oft justified and proved to be of God by this reason So that our Saviour Christ proveth Himselfe to be the true Messiah by doing the workes of the Messiah d Eph 4 11 12 Rom. 10.14 15. so may wee prove our selves true Ministers by doing the workes of God His Ministers To that which they object against this reason 2 Cor. 9.1 2. Rom. 13.17 18. 1 Thes 1.1 9. Mat. 12.5 6. Iohn 5.36 Notwithstanding that it is objected of other meanes viz. that thereby the Popish Church and Ministerie may be justified as well as ours seeing that many have beene converted by private conference and reading and by domesticall preaching and exhortations without a publicke Church alling We answer that though the Lord hath beene often wont heretofore and is able still to convert soules by private meanes and such as are extraordinary Yet cannot it be proved that any have beene converted usually or that publike Congregations have been gathered and builded up by any private interpretations and application of the Scriptures but by such only as hath been use by a lawful ministerie And whereas Henry Barrow excepteth further p. 152. and 153 and of his refutation that this argueth only true doctrine and not a true Ministerie we answer First That thereby he justifieth our doctrine which elsewhere he generally condemneth Secondly That he affirmeth only that true doctrine without a true ministerie doth ordinarily convert men but proveth it not nor indeed was able to prove it as shall hereafter appeare in the answer wee make to the second Article of their consequence But our Ministers have no promise of blessing in their teaching say they and therefore neither may they lawfully teach nor the people heare them To this we answer First Ezech. 3.2 7. That Gods Ministers have lawfully taught when they have not only wanted the promise that their labour should doe that people good whom they did teach but received assurance of the contrary Secondly That the people have lawfully heard Ionah 3.4 ● and hearkened to teachers that have come unto them when they as being utterly ignorant and unaconainted with Gods promises had no assurance to their consciences that God had promised a blessing to their hearing Objection first THe first thing they object against our Ministers Their first objection against our ministers is that the office whereunto our Ministers were called is

it for as it is necessary that this ordinance of God should be sanctified by the Word and prayer so it cannot bee inconvenient that the Word and prayer whereby it is sanctified should be administred by him who in a speciall sort is appointed of God to be the steward and disposer of all his mysteries and to whom in his ministeriall actions greater promises are made than to any other man though hee doe the very same thing And seeing that in these dayes it preventeth many dangerous inconveniences to have marriages blest in the publike congregations who can be thought so fit to speake in the congregation and to bee the month either of the Lord to the people or of the people unto God as is the Minister That which Henry Barrow objecteth in the 123. page of his discovery That he ever tooke Marriage for an Ordinance and an action of the second table and seeth not why we may not as well set up the tables of the money changers or bring in any other civill matters or chaffaire as this into our Church is easily answered for though marriages be a civill action yet is not the blessing of it by the word and prayer civill And as the Magistrates may have a hand in those actions that are Ecclesiasticall and belonging to the first Table even by Henry Barrowes owne confession in the 85. page of the same booke so may the Minister have a hand in those actions that are civill and belonging to the second Table And though Marriages receive life and being from the contract that is made by mutuall consent of parties and Parents privately which is the cause why we doe thereupon according to the Scriptures account them man and wife before they have lyen together yet doth this adde much to the seemlinesse and beautie of that holy ordinance when it is thus made knowne and rightly ratified in the congregation Concerning Courching of women we answer That many of our Ministers doe upon a just dislike of the forme prescribed in the booke and upon feare of nurishing the great superstition that the people for the most part have put in that custome forbeare to use any particular and personall forme of thankesgiving at that time and occasion And yet wee see not how it should simply be unlawfull though very unconvenient to use some form of thankesgiving at that time even with speciall mention of that occasion or how our ministerie should be made void and Antichristian by doing so besides that the booke it selfe tieth no Minister to the forme preseribed but leaveth it to his discretion to use it or any other as that case or occasion requireth Concerning burialls we answer First That many of our Ministers are knowne to refuse the forme of buriall prescribed in the booke Secondly That a Christian Minister may for the honour and seemlinesse of Christian buriall accompany as a Christian with the rest of the Neighbours the body of Christians departed unto the grave Thirdly if the minister use some few words of comfort and exhortation at that time Yea even in that forme that the booke prescribeth though it may prove inconvenient and offensive Yet is there no such impietie in that action that should make his ministerie void or Antichristian Their seventh reason against our office is That we are called to use Antichristian Geremonies whereunto we make this answer That the Ceremonies wherein opinion of Holinesse is or hath beene put many of our Ministers have cast off so that this reason maketh nothing to justifie separation from all our Church Assemblies Secondly Many that use sundry of these Ceremonies doe it because either they judge them things indifferent and such as whereunto the Law of Christian charitie b Rom. 7.15 2 Chron. 20 33. 1 King 2.5.3 Though we all used the most unlawfull Ceremonies that are in our Church Yet might we bee true Ministers Galath 4 9. 2 Kings 14.4 Fourthly Speciallie seeing we are not bound by office to use them Their second Objection against our ministerie is that the entrance in to our Office is Antichristian which insufficient to warrant their separation for First the people are not bound to enquire or see how their Ministers entred Secondly Our entrance may be lawfull though it be not in al points agreeable to the rules of Christs Testament ●esu●a p. 127. and the tender regard to the weakenesse of the people doth as they thinke binde them following therein the direction of the Word or else they tollerate them as burdens which it lieth not in them to remove being laid upon them by the determination of the Magistrate and custome of the Church And seeing that they doe in judgement and affection unfainedly dislike that which either through humane infirmitie or in Christian wisdome and to prevent more dangerous inconveniences they are inforced to beare with Wee see not why they may not bee accounted the true Ministers of Christ notwithstanding they use these inconyenient Ceremonies as well as Paul might be judged to be a good Christian though he sometimes did that evill which he hated and Iehos●phat a good King though hee indured the high places to continue in Iudah all the time of his government because hee was not able to abolish them And David though he suffered Ioab to live many dayes after he had committed most unnaturall murder because hee was notable without manifest danger to his state to cut him off Thirdly the use of the most unlawfull ceremonies that are amongst us is not of force to make our Ministerie void and Antichristian or our Church for the Galathians were still a true Church though they had received even those impotent and beggerly rudiments which they had once cast off much more wee which cannot bee said to have resumed them as being never yet freed from the bondage of them so was there still a true Church in Iudah when the hill alters and high places were continued there which yet was a greater corruption in the worship of God then the ceremonies whereof question is made can possibly be accounted Fourthly It is no part of our office whereunto we are in ordination called to use any ceremonies as hath beene shewed before The second thing they object against our Ministerie is That the manner of our entrance into the aforesaid office and calling is Antichristian and not according to Gods Ordinance Whereunto wee answer First that the people may lawfully accept us to bee true Ministers whom the Church so esteemeth though they cannot see how we first entred And that by no commandement or example in the Word they are bound to enquire there-into For further proofe whereof we referre out selves unto the answer which wee have made to their first Objection against the whole body of our Church Secondly Though none of those Rules which Christ his Testament hath set downe for the calling and ordaining of our Ministerie can be wanting without a blemish and maime to the calling And consequently they should

sufficiently manifested to the Church and that our Church hath beene sufficiently convinced of many grosse corruptions but that for the want of some parts of discipline our Church should be no Church or that for the corruptions amongst us our Ministers should be no true Ministers or our people no faithfull people which are the very fundamentall principles of their Schisme and almost the very matter of difference betwixt them and us In these points wee deny that either to this day they have sufficiently convinced us or that before the first time of their separation they had in any measure used meanes to convince us Secondly after they had convicted us in Judgement they should have by brotherly admonition and exhortation sought to perswade us unto the love and practise of the truth revealed and to the hatred and forsaking of the manifested corruptions (b) 2 Thes 3.14.15 Tit. 3.10 Heb. 10.15 which is evident they did not before their separation Thirdly the Scripture forbiddeth the Church to eject a private member till in all patience and long suffering his repentance hath been waited for and the fruit of the aforesaid meanes expected (c) 2 Thes 3.14.15 2 Tim. 2.24 25 and 2 Tim. 4.2 which evidently reproveth their hastie and sudden departure from us either before or suddenly after they had used the meanes abovesaid especially seeing that in all reason more long-sufferance should be vsed by such private members as they were toward a whole Church than by a whole Church towards private members Fourthly whereas they should have used all the meanes abovesaid in meeknesse humilitie and love mourning also for the hardnesse of our hearts whereby the meanes became frustrate unto us d Ephes 4.15 2 Tim. 2.25 Tit. 3.2 Heb. 10.24.25 It is evident that their zeale in dealing against us hath beene like the rash and undiscreet zeale spoken of and reproved in the sons of Zebedeus e Mar. 3.5 Luke 9.55 And hath favoured altogether of uncharitablenesse and not of love for as all they that once have declined to that Schisme are found to be exceedingly proud and disdainfull to wards all that are contrary minded yea even such as before they were infected with that leaven were patternes of all love modesty and humility unto others so will they not acknowledge nor reverence any of the most excellent graces that God hath given unto any of his servants amongst us nor so much respect them as the very Papists will doe no they professe greater detestation and despite to the most godly and most sincere men amongst us then they doe to such as are most notorious in profannesse and malice to the truth To which purpose also wee desire that the spirit whereby Henry Barrow was directed in writing his last bookes may be well examined Fiftly whereas by the equitie of the rule which our Saviour himselfe giveth and according to the practise of the Apostolike Church wee should have had our corruptions made knowne to some other Reformed Churches and by them we should have beene convinced and admonished before these our brethren could rightly judge us as heathens and publicanes we affirme that they as if the Word of God had come out from them or had come unto them onely have by their disorderly separation not onely despised and robbed us of our right but all other christian Churches in the world besides Sixtly they have not so much as protested the cause of their separation from us to the particular Congregations whereof before their departure they were accounted by others and did also acknowledge themselves to be members Seaventhly those of them which once exercised the places of the Ministrie amongst us and received for the same the reward due which they call Balaams wages have not before or since their departure made actuall restitution of that which was if their opinions be true most unjustly received nor yet shewed themselves willing so to doe to their abilitie which norwithhstanding by the law of God they are most strictly bound to doe The scond Article in their conclusion is this That the Assemblies which they goe and joyne themselves unto are such as the Word of God commandeth them to goe unto whereunto we give this answere That if they had followed the direction of Gods Word when they had left us for our coruptions and wants as they charge us with they should have joyned themselves to some other Reformed Churches which are pure from our corruptions and amongst whom the discipline of Christ is rightly established as we finde the faithfull Levites and people did in the dayes of Iiroboam and every wise hearted Christian will hold it to be a reason of great force against them that they have made separation not from us onely but from all other Reformed Churches in the world For there by they appeare to have beene of this judgement that till they arose there was not a true cōstituted visible Church in the whole world knowne unto them unto which they might have joyned themselves Secondly the Assemblies which they erected and joyned themselves unto if they be looked into with a Christian and indifferent eye shall well appeare to be much more deformed than many of those are which they have for saken for proofe whereof we desire the Readers to weigh well with the weights of the Sanctuary and to try by the touchstone of the Word certaine points of doctrine which they have both brewed and broached to the world in their printed Books Then secondly their practise and dispositions All their Paradoxes and absurd opinions we will not set downe but in some few we will give the Readers a taste of the rest In the 138. page of their discovery they affirme That such an Idolatrous shape cleaveth to every stone of our Materiall Charches as by no meanes can be severed from them while there is a stone left standing upon a stone so that neither they can be used to the worship of God nor we have any use of them seeing that they are execrable and devoted to destruction In the 167. page of the same booke they teach That to every Christian God hath given his boly sanctifying spirit to open unto them and to l●ade them in to all truth Much like unto this is that which they wright in the 161. page of their refutation That it is an execrable position to say that the Church and every member thereof is in some spirituall bondage to sinne Touching the Magistrates authority besides that by the whole tenour of their writings it appeareth that they hold the people may take in hand the publike Reformation of the Church and erect the whole discipline not only without but contrary to the Christian Magistrates liking and consent they doe also directly affirme page 218 and 219. of their discovery That God hath in the holy Scripture made most perfect and necessary Lawes both for the Church and Common-wealth and that he requireth of the King and Magistrase to see their