will be ever an annon before our eyes and as we apprehend it we shall speake unto it OR AN ANSWER TO TWO LATE LIBELLS PUBLISHED BY TWO ANONYMUSSES 1 And why two libells Mr. Bellamy you might have forborne that untill you had proved them so but it seemes this is a tast of your Presbyteriall justice we are like to find from you when power is in your hands First passe sentence and after examine what ever it is because written as you suppose by an Antipresbyter it must needs be a Libell is this Christian Mr. Bellamy to condemn mens persons for Heretiques Sectaryes Schismatiques though you never define the things you affirme their doctrines for errours untruths blasphemies though you heare not what they say their writings for lyes falsity libells so soone as ever you looke on their bookes But Secondly must they needs be libells because reflecting upon the City Remonstrance is not the Remonstrance it selfe reflecting upon the High Court of Parliament by this kind of arguing what would follow Thirdly Are they therefore libells because written by two Anonymusses if so how many Presbyterian Libells doe you fell in a yeare may it not as well be the modesty of some to forbeare as the impudency of others as the case may stand to affix their names to their writings some men will blush even in a good cause when others will brazen their foreheads and audaciously set to their names to that which is bad apprehension of selfe abilities wit and worth and affectation of popularity being strong temptations hereunto but what are names to things the Author to the matter doth this adde or take away it is the weakenesse of the Reader when the knowledge of the Author helpes his opinion as touching the matter he that shall judge the better of your vindication because Iohn Bellamy appeares in the frontispiece or the worse of the reply because written by an Anonymus is more acquainted with titles then bookes and regards more the authority of mens persons then Arguments but because some men cannot find fault with that that is they will be quibling at that that is not and truly Sir by that time your vindication hath been throughly examined it willappeare to have been as much for your credit if you had crouded your selfe among the sect of Anonymusses as to stand out by the name of Iohn Bellamy In the title page thereof And the truth is of all Sects that is the most innocent for though they differ from one another in many points yea all the heavens over yet they never seeke the ruine and distruction of one another may not you learn of them Mr. Bellamy Fourthly In the fourth place are they therefore Libells because containing in them lyes falsities untruths as for one of those bookes viz. the Interest of England maintained I never read and therefore shall not at all intermeddle therewith but leave it to the Authors justification as for the other viz. The moderate reply to the Citie Remonstrance I confesse I have read it over and over once and againe and however there may possibly be mistakes more then enough for the holy Scripture it selfe excepted where is that writing without mistakes surely neither this Vindication nor the City Remonstrance are any but I am so perswaded of that spirit that fram'd it that he would not willingly write lyes for all the estate and preferment either Civill or Martiall that the Citie or Kingdome can conferre upon him but let us see what mistakes untruths or lyes you can find therein that so we may the better know the nature of a libell hereafter Fiftly In the last place are they therefore Libells because little bookes though the word is alwayes taken with us in the bad sence yet it properly signifies nothing more why then your Vindication yea the Remonstrance it selfe with those you speake of may all passe for Libells and the Authors of them all for so many Libellers We have done with your title-page wherein you have been very free in accusations and promises but how short you are in the proofe of the one and performance of the other your booke will declare It begins thus in Capitall letters A VINDICATION OF THE CITY REMONSRANCE That is A Vindication of that which is invindicable and therefore better it would be that both the City Remonstrance and the Vindication thereof were written in Ashes with the finger of vanitie then in marble with the pen of a Diamond except men should looke upon it as a beauty spot the better to set off the other more faire beautifull and praise-worthy expresses from the City of London But to come to your Booke You begin with a truth in the position and proofe to this purpose Sathans instruments like Athaliah 2 King 11. have alwayes accused others first whereof themselves are chiefly guilty even so the disturbers of the quiet and peace of the Church and State viz. the Heretiques and Sectaries which of late in this Nation doe so much abound cry out upon those which endeavour their discovery as the only perturbers of the Parliaments proceedings Ans It was the observed custome of the Bishops Chaplins great Apostates in their latter dayes that they did very frequently carrie on the Doctrinall part of their Sermons after a very sollid and orthodox manner but mar'd all in the Application thereof bending the force of all that they said against the peaceable in the Earth the sons and daughters of the most high God under the black and ugly vizards of Heretiques and Sectarâ—es disturbers of the quiet and peace of the Church and State even so Mr. Bellamy whose former wayes were the very selfe same as shall be proved anon upon which the mallice ignorance and envie of those present times writes Heresies Sectarisme Disturbance of the quiet and peace of the Church and State layes downe a truth in the position cleares it by Scripture but bends the application of it against others though it turnes back like a sharpe sword into his owne side for see his applycation of the aforesaid truth Mr. Bellamy Aâ— by two late libells put forth in answer to the City Remonstrance and in defence of Heretiques and Sectaries doth appeare But Sir were you as wise or rather conscientions in giving to every one his portion and to devide the word of truth aright as you seeme to be able to observe truth from the word you would apply it else where and nor where you have done for if you examine things by their nature or by their effects you shall not find the moderate Reply but the City Remonstrance to be the disturber of the quiet and peace of the Church and State witnesse the divisions which it hath wrought in Bedfordshire Hartfordshire Norfolke Suffolâ—â— and in many other places an accompt whereof you may have in season raising up parties after Londons example to set forth such peremptory Remonstrances to the Parliament and people as never were known in this Kingdome before
though through the blessing of God they have been crusht in most places and the truth is the printing of twenty thousands of the said Remonstrances as intelligence informes the dispersions thereof both in all the parts of this Kingdome and beyond the seas with the strong and powerfull enforcements thereof by the Ministers upon the people after Londons example to doe the like as time and opportunitie may evidence to the World did argue the desires of many the prime â—romoters of the city Remonstrance to be no lesse then to make divisions and to disturbe the peace and quiet of the Church and State Mr. Bellamy You proceed to make good your charge against two Libells viz. the one a Moderate reply to the City Remonstrance the other the Interest of England maintained you encounter chiefly with the first and I shall second the same and leave the other having never perul'd it First you acknowledge the City Representative is made up and chosen of the City Collective and I likewise acknowledge the Kingdome Representative to be made up and chosen by the Kingdome Collective neither is there any thing charged as criminall by the Reply in this constitution you grant this likewise a truth that it is more common then commendable for men trusted with other mens goods to behave themselves to their trustees hurt But you demand what doth this reflect upon the City Representative or its Remonstrance Since you will not see you shall see except with your tonguâ— you will deny what you see with your eyes a common thing in these back sliding times you tell us against whom this charge is made good and you tell us the truth viz. against such who being trusted with the soules of a people by their common consent and choice to be their Pastor Whether Presbyterian or Independent Parrochiall or Congregationall have in stead of feeding them with the sinceere Milke of the word that they may grow thereby fed them with the foolish fancies of their owne brain viâ— that such a kind of government so and so disposed and digegested into a Parochiall Classicall Provinciall and Synodiall constitution with power and authority here and there placed to compell and enforce men to submit thereunto though against their owne judgements and consciences and that the Magistrate ought to exact uniformitie from all that live under them is jure Divino a meere fancie of their owne braine and in stead of keeping them together in the bond of unity have broken them to pieces with rents and divisions viz. representing those who agree not with them to be Heretiques Sectaries Schismatiques and what not and thus reâ—ding a sunder a people of as sweet nature heavenly spirit and loving conversation in former times as the world hath known It is confest Mr. Bellamy that these these are the men which behave themselves to their trustees hurt you proceed to answer what the Replyer tells you viz. that there are 4. cases wherein the City collective is not bound to the City Representative but ought in duty to dissent from it if not to protest against it Moderate Reply First when the City representative acts in a direct evident obvious maner against the expresse wil word of God 2. When in the like plaine and direct manner it acts against the apparent welfare peace and good of the Kingdome 3. When it acts after the same manner against the proper end of its owne being the Cities welfare 4. When it acts beyond the bounds limits and extents appointed to the endangering of all its immunities and freedomes This you affirme is the replyers plat-forme or ground-work of his after building and scoffingly say it is sutable thereunto though you except not against any one of these propositions but say you he dares not affirme that the City representative doth act in any one of the foure cases it may be it was more his modesty to forbeare then his impudency in case he had charged the City by that Remonstrance to act in them all and had it been Mr. John Bellamies act as it was the act of the City I would have undertooke and would have looked upon it as no great task to have proved him acting against every one of them and for that time made a separation a schisme from the society of Anonimusses You paralel the City Representatives the City Collective unto the Kingdome Representative and the Kingdome Collective I freely grant that the paralel holds good I mean as touching the constitution of the Kingdome Representative and City representative viz. by the collective body of the one and of the other though not in respect of their power and am not a fraid to grant it likewise that if the Kingdome representative should act in a direct plaine and obvious manner against the expresse will and word of God against the apparent welfare peace and good of the Kingdomâ— c. That the Kingdome collective ought in duty not to consent unto it As for the instance which you bring from Mr. Burtons affirmation from his 51 52. pages of his book called the vindication of those Churches commonly called Independents to make good your logick had not your silver shrines of the Presbyterian Temple dazled your eyes and dâ—mmed your sight you might have found assertions in abundance from the Presbyterian Authors which differ no more from what Mr. Burton saith in that point then twelve pence differs from a shilling please you Sir examine Mr. George Gillespy in the 13. Page of his book cal'd Nihil respondes written against Mr. Coleman and Mr. Samuel Rutherford in the last page of the Epistle to the Reader in his book called the divine right of Chuâ—ch gâ—vernment and Excommunication And see if he saith not as much and more of Mr. Burtons sence in that point then Mr. 〈◊〉 himsâ—â—fe hath said I for beare to set downe the words as supposing you are not without the books I referre you to and if thâ—se two will not suffice as occasion is offer'd you shall have 20 and 〈◊〉 of the Presbyterian party that shal be produced to have saiâ— the same but to the poynt in hand suppose the representative Kingdome that I may give you an instance in a case as you have given to the replyer should make a law for the hanging burning or banishing all such as shall deny the Popes supremacy the reall presence in the Sacrament of the Lords supper or other grosse popish absurdityes suppose they should establish Mahomatisme c. Is not the Kingdom collective bound in conscience and duty to dissent from it if not to protest against it suppose they should command us to abjure Iesus Christ and turne Iewes ought not you â— every man in the Kingdome to dissent from it if not to protest against it nay suppose that they should set up a government in a direct and knowne opposition to the word of God and the example of the best reformed Churches ought we not to
a Remonstrance of the Lords and Commons in Parliament of the second of Novem. 1642. to these words wee did and doe say that the Soveraigne power doth reside in the King and both Houses of Parliament Here you thinke you have given the Replyer a faire fall and therefore insult over him ever and anon upon this point but forbeare Mr. Bellamy turpe insultare jacenti for however you thinke you have given the Replyer such a full and ample satisfaction yet all the world cannot so easily be satisfied and therefore though for my part I was never yet a Common Counsell man and therefore cannot so possitively speak to such deep states businesse yet since you are so willing to satisfy the ignorant what I shall say herein shall be by way of quere First then I quere Mr. Bellamy What meane you by three Estates I have heard the tearme once by the Bishops friends when they were a falling and they concluded that there were three Estates in this Kingdome viz. the King and the Lords temporall were the first Lords spirituall were the second the Commons the third Estate and they gave this reason that the King and the Lords were but one Estate because the King made the Lords but though the King conferr'd the Honours and profits of Bishops yet did not make the Bishops themselves they as Bishops were jure divino you determine it otherwise I pray you Sir a little more satisfaction to that point 2. What meane you by fundamentall you say the King Lords and Commons are the three Estates of which the fundamentall constitution of this Kingdome is made up are there three fundamentals I confesse I have not understood so much I ever thought there had been but one and that I took to be the Commons and these reasons made me think so First because I ever thought that the Commons made the King and the King made the Lords and sâ— the Commons were the Prime foundation Secondly I ever took this for a truth likewise that both the King and the Lords were advanced for the benefit quiet and welfare of the Commons and not the Commons made for them and if I was deceived the Common maxim of saluâ—-populi suprema lex deceived me You see my doubt you see my reason a little satisfaction here also Mr. Bellamy Thirdly I quere whether upon this supposition that the Kingdome is made up three Estates as you say and so wee must not understand the Parliament consisting of so many men but of three Estates distinct quatenus estates apart by themselves those are your termes I quere I say whether that the King and suppose the major part of the Lords which make up two Estates doe agree together suppose it be to set up absolute prerogative and the Commons will not assent here unto whether the major part of Estates must not conclude the minor the two conclude the third and so as for the Commons will they nil they slaves they must be and slaves they shall be your judgment here likewise good Mr. Bellamy Fourthly Whereas you say the King is present in Parliament viz. in his Kingly power though absent in person I quere whether he is present with them as a distinct Estate I know Sir hee is present in power in all his inferiour Courts of justice as well as in the parliament but is he present as a distinct estate If so if one distinct Estate may be present in power quatenus an estate and absent in person may not a second Estate be so present though absent in body yea a third Estate so present and yet absent in body and so we shall have three Estates in Parliament and not a man amongst them this is a Riddle indeed Mr. Bellamy I pray you unfould this also Fiftly The Replyer observing the Remonstrants ascribing only a share of the Supreame power to the House of Commons proposeth this question to them will not you allow so much power to the Kingdome Representative in reference to the Kingdom as to the representative City in reference to London see page 13. And so do I quere wil not the CoÌ„mons of London yeild of ascribe unto the Commons of England as the CoÌ„mons of London to thmselves wil ascribe Therefore Mr. Bellamy to make your absurdities the better appeare in your paralel between the Kingdome Representative and the City Representative I come upon you thus First you grant that the Common-councell is the City Representative page the 2. of your Vindication Secondly You grant that the House of Commons in Parliament assembled is the Kingdome Representative in the same page Thirdly You say the City Representative hath power to make a Law for those whom it Represents in the 12. page of your plea for the Cmonalty of London Fourthly I desire to know whether you allow the Kingdome Representative the same power to make a Law for those whom it represents if so then let us examine your argument May wee reason after your Logick Mr. Bellamy see your Sillogisme Sir in the said book called a plea for the Comonalty of London I think I hit the right name of it though the Replyer was mistaken before in the 12. page it stands thus That Court which hath a power to make a Law and by that Law to conferre a power upon the Lord Major and Aldermen which as Lord Major and Aldermen theâ— had not beforâ— must needs be quoad hoc unto the making of a Law above the Lord Major and Aldermen But this Court of Common-councell hath c. Ergo this Court of Common-councell so farre as to the making of a Law must needs be above the Lord Major and Aldermen Now Sir I quere only for I cannot presume such skill may not I reason thus after your patterne That Court that hath a power to make a law and by that law to conferre that power upon the King and Lords which as king and Lords they had not before must needs be quoad hoc unto the making of a Law above the King and Lords But the House of Commons which say you is the Kingdome Râ—presentative even as the Common-councell is the City Representative upon your supposition hath a power c. Ergo the House of Commons so farre as unto the making of a Law c. May I not reason thus likewise according to your example from your owne supposition still that Court which hath a power to make or repeale what lawes they judge meet for the Common wealth and whereunto the King himselfe is bound by his oath and therefore ought in duty to consent must needs be quoad hoc unto the making and repealing Lawes the Supream Court But the House of Commons which say you is the Kingdome Representative as the Common-conncell is of the City of London upon your supposiâ—ion hath such a power c. therefore Or may I not reason thus for I doe not conclude any thing I doe but as a Pupill to his Tuter propound queres to