pleasure to compell any woman to be Churched Chauncelor Well wee will talke of that another time but I would to God yee foolish women would medle with that whiche belongs vnto you and which is within the cōpasse of your owne element and not take vppon you the decision and interpretation of the law which ye vnderstād not But I pray you tell me one thinge what if the Church now would institute and ordeyne a solemne Purifying of women would you not bee purified Woman No indeed would I not For if I should I should then either with the Iewes denie Christ to be come in the fleshe to giue an end to those shadowes which were figures of the purifying and washing away of our sinnes by his bloud or els with the Papistes I must denie the bloudshead and sufferings of Christ to be th' only and alone sufficient purgation of sinne and therefore it is that we must haue a supply and be fart her holpen by some Church Ceremonie or outward forme of Prayers out of the mouth of some shaveling or Priest Chauncelor Yea but see now I pray you how you are deceyved in the heate of your zeale looke in the booke there is no such matter of Purifying as you speake of but onelie of Thankesgiving Woman Trust me you say true I had almost forgotten that it speaketh not a woord indeed of Purifying But what a iugling blearing of th'eis of the simple is this amongst you May we not heerein say of you your fellowes that yee are the most perillous instrumentes and dangerous impostors that euer Sathan raysed vp for th' advancement and restoring againe of Poperie Chauncelor Why so I pray you my good kinswoman What neede all this heate among friendes You imagine belike you are amōg your scolding dames and pratling huswiues at home Woman No good Maister Chauncelor I know I thanke God where I am neither am I any whitte distempered at all But that whiche I haue sayed I may truly and lawfullie say againe In which regard well fare the Papistes say I for they shall rise vp in iudgement against you who like good fellowes yet in playne and open tearmes euen bare faced as it were doe seeke to seduce vs and to drawe vs to their false and idolatrous woorship and service in Poperie as namelie by their Masse Mattens Ensong Purification and other such like Whereas you much more dangerously and euen vnder a maske or visard as it were and not vnlike to him that transformeth him selfe into an Angell of light doe goe about to drawe and allure vs to the selfe same falfe worship service but by cleanlier names and honester titles as to their Purification by the title and name of Thankesgiving that is to a Iewish Ceremonie that should be abolished vnder the pretence colour of a seruice of God that should be continued Chauncelor But I pray you Cousen Puritane is there no difference betwixt that in Poperie and ours Woman The difference as I haue bene tolde by learned men is onely in this That theirs is in Latin yours in Englissh otherwise your proper Thankesgiuing which yee call Churching is even the very same woord for woord excepting only the Title wherin as I saye yee iuggle and walke a little more covertly then they with their Purification in Poperie And can the changing of a name or title alter the thing it selfe or make it of another nature If yee haue that gift and power amongst you then yee may as well bring vs in the Masse vnder the name and title of a Communion and so he that refuseth to goe to Masse you may serue him with a Citatiō for not comming to the Communion as in the like case you doe now by vs you trouble vs and call vs in questiō for denying of Thankesgiuing because we refuse to be Purified Chauncelor In good faith it is more thē I haue considered of whether that in Poperie be so neare agreeing to ours as you speak of I beleeue your leaders haue mis-informed you But howsoeuer it be and howsoeuer the Papistes doe holde and account of it it makes no great matter The Church you see now holdeth it for no other then a meere Thankesgiuing which is very deeent and requisite for euerie woman after so great deliuerance Woman What if the Church should holde our Ladies Psalter to be Davids Psalter or t'h Aue Marie for a Prayer Should I therefore take and vse th' one for Davids Psalter and th' other for a Prayer I know the Lord is to be thanked for all his mercies much more for so great a blessing as Childbirth is But as we are to giue God thankes and are therevnto tyed and bound in duetie and allegeance so are we still to doe the same according to the pleasure of him that commaundeth and after the square and rule of his ordinance and not after the preceptes phansies and inventions of men especiallie after the prescription of the man of Synne that is after the manner of the superstitious and idolatrous Papistes Chauncelor But in faith doe you not thinke it a decent thing that after so great an escape and for the birth of a babe into the worlde there should bee Thanksgiving or would you haue no differeuce betwixt reasonable creatures and beastes but that it should bee left indifferent to vnrulie men to accompanie with their wives at their pleasures without regard of their weaknes and vncleannesse Woman You aske me wonderfull strange things First whether it be not a decent thing vpon such a deliuerance and the birth of a Babe into the worlde there should not bee Thankefgiving Secondlie whether it should bee left indifferent for men to playe the beastes with their wives Vnto which I aunswere that the manner of Churching that you thus trouble vs for doeth not redresse anie of these inconveniences There being in it in trueth no maner of Thanksgiving at all but onelie a speach or superscription of a Thankesgiving Socondlie whereas by the law of God to touch a woman in the time of her separation and vncleanesse should bee death what punishment haue you prouided for this so great and haynous enormitie Or howe doeth your Churching of women restraine a carnall and licentious appetite from executing his villenous and beastlie desire Hath he not his full swindge and libertie to doe what he lift for all that So that yee complaine of dangers disorders inconveniences and yet leaue them still as you found them without cure or redresse neuer caring for anie thing so your ydle Ceremonie may be kept Chauncelor A man may easelie smell gentle Cousen where you haue bene at schoole yet I haue talked in my daies with some of your own crew and they hau cheld it for a thing indifferent at the least and haue not bene halfe so hotte in it as you and therefore for the loue I beare you I would wishe you to haue some regard of modestie and womanhood For yea faith when
Certaine Questions by way of Conference betwixt a Chauncelor and a Kinswoman of his concerning Churching of Women 1601. Certeine questions by way of conference betwixt a Chauncelor and a kinswoman of his concerning Churching of Women Chauncelor TRulie Cousen I am sorie that you should thus vpō a pievish conceite of yours bring your self into this vn-necessarie trouble for a trifle and matter of nothing as it were Woman If you be sorie indeed as you pretende then you might haue let me alone and not haue caused your Apparitor to serue me as he did with Citation for assure your selfe if you had not troubled me I would never haue troubled my selfe about this trifle you speake of Chauncelor Nay I must not do so I must deale indifferentlie you know and not be partiall though you be my kinswoman Th'information being against you as well as others your name being presēted to me by the church Wardens with other women moe if I should leaue you out and proceed against them I should not doe that which were fitting for my place and office you know I am sworne to doe iustice Woman Indeed your office and place afoordes much iustice if it be well observed as ordinarie iustice as Billinsgate doeth loue friendship for a boxe of th' eare you are sworne you saye and will not that oath of yours alow you to shew as much favor and kindnesse to your kinswoman in a trifle as to a stranger that is no kinne to you in a matter of weight Chauncelor O I knowe where you are now I thought where you would bee straight I knew I should heare of it you meane mistres A.B. But in good faith your Minister did her wrong neither had he anie law to warrant him to doe that he vrged her vnto I cōfesse she made a fault before she was maried but the man you know made her amendes and I doe not heare but that they liue orderly and well nowe notwithstandinge all which your hotte spirited Minister of spight malice as itis thought would haue put them both to open penance if I had not stucke close to them Woman Mercifull Christ what neede anie witnesse to be produced against you when your owne mouth doeth so apparantlie cōdemne you The gentlewoman you confesse made a fault and what was that fault but simple Fornicatiō at the least For the which our Minister would haue done that which belonged vnto him if you would haue lett him and that whiche I take it by your leaue the Booke of common Prayer it selfe doeth warrant him to doe and you by your owne confession withstoode him in that good purpose of his Nowe surely my good man this is a sinne amongest others that you must repent of otherwise it wil be woe with you And I pray you tel me one thing Mistres A. B. is a straunger to you and I am your kinswoman her fault cover it shadow it as you will was vncleannesse at the least and that which you trouble mee for is but a Ceremonie as your self confesse a matter of no moment What warrant haue you then so stiflie to stande with her in her sinne and to deale thus sharplie with me and others in a thing indifferent or a matter of nothing Chauncelor Well gentle kinswoman seeing you are so snappish over-busying yourself in other folkes matters that apperteine not vnto you I pray you let me heare now how handsomely you can answere for your selfe Woman With whose matters did I medle I pray you did not you first name mistresse A. B. your selfe Chauncelor All is one for that I know you meant her when you said that my oath might as well alow me to shew fauour to my kinswoman in a trifle as to a strāger in a matter of weight Woman Well be it so then If your conscience did accuse you looke you to that But what haue you now to say to me and what is the cause why you haue sent for me Chauncelor You neede not aske you know it well enough I am sure It is for your foolish nicenesse in this trifling matter of Churching And I pray you in good sadnesse what reason haue you why you refuse to be Churched Woman If it be as you say a trifle the more to blame you to trouble your friends in so trifling a cause But what doe you meane by Churching Doe you meane that which is sett downe in the Booke Chauncelor Iust I meane that and none other For law will not warrant vs to presse you to any other Woman No nor I thinke to that neither if it be well examined But seeing you meane that kinde of Churching The reason in a woord why I refuse it is this Because I would be loth to shew my selfe either Iew or Papist Chauncelor Why will thankesgiuing to God after Childbirth make you a lew or a Papist Woman No Thankesgiuing will not But this manner of thankesgiving that you would haue me to obserue is in trueth no thanksgiving at all but a meere Iewish or Popish Purifying Chauncelor How doe you proove it to be no thankesgiuing Woman By the verie first institution of it For the Papistes that were the woorshipfull founders and devisers of it and knew best their own meaning did in the instituting of it giue it this title The Purification of Women after Childbirth Whereby it is manifest that their very drift and intent in th'institution was only for a Purification or Purging and therefore no thankesgiving Secondly there is no one woord matter or forme of thankesgiuing in the whole order of it as it is set downe in the booke and therefore it can not be that it was ordayned for Thankesgivinge though in the title thereof it be absurdlie so called Chauncelor But why doe you tearme it a Iewish or a Popish Purifying Woman It is Iewish in 2 respectes First in that the woman after she hath brought foorth a childe is held vncleane as vnder the Law til such time as she hath shewed herselfe in the Temple Secondlie in that shee is commanded to offer her accustomed offeringes which is drawen deriued from the Lamb and young Pigeons vnder the Law Popish it is in 3 respectes First in that it was instituted and devised by the Rapistes apishlie imitating the Iewes and bringing in one kinde of Purifying in steade of another Secondly in that the woman is commaunded to come as neare the communion table as in the time of popery they came to the high Altar Lastlie in regard of the Popish offeringe to weete the Chrisome For she is commaunded to offer th' accustomed offeringes which is sete downe to be the Chrisome In which regard you may as instlie trouble me and cal me hither for not offering the Chrisome as for not being purifyed and as good law you haue for th' one as th' other whiche makes me thinke as I sayed before that you haue no law amongest you but onelie the lawlesse law of your will and
at all if it be a sinne to abuse and misapplie the sacred Scriptures of God to another ende and purpose then it was giuen by the holy Ghost if it bee a sinne to strengthen and confirme the Papist in his superstition and the simple and ignorant in their false erroneous woorship if all or any of these bee sinnes then doe I not see how your Churching as it is vsed amongst you can escape the stampe and brandmarke of sinne And howsoever it may bee to others I doe well assure my selfe it were a sinne and wickednes in mee because it is against the light of mine owne conscience grounded vpō the reasons that I haue alleaged vnto you Chauncelor Why but if you like not the Psalme in the Booke whiche you keepe such adoe at and be so coy conceyted that for feare of abusing it forsooth you are loth to haue it read to you yet your Minister may vse another if he will and pray as he thinkes good So you would decentlie womanly come to church at your time as other your neighbours doe by my trouth for my part I could bee content to winke at manie things and shew you any favour I could Woman Then I perceyue you haue forgotten how in the beginning when I asked you what you meant by Churching you tolde mee that which was prescribed in the booke For law sayed you would not warrant any other And are you come now to giue vs libertie to vse another so we would quietlie obserue your Ceremonie Chauncelor You say well Is this the thankes I haue for my kindnesse and favor to you in that I am contented to saue you from trouble and daunger to yeeld a litle to your weaknesse because you seeme to make cōscience of I can not tell what In good faith goship you shall fitt till your heeles ake before I offer you this favour againe Woman Nay but for all your chafing I would not haue you mistake me What favour so euer you shew me I will not by Gods grace be vnthankfull for it to my power But I vnderstood you that you gaue me euen now free libertie to speake my minde and that you would willinglie heare what soeuer I should say and I tooke it and doe still take it that your Sommoning and sending for me hither was rather in your loue to conferre with me and to satisfie me then by anie rigour of your law to punish me Chauncelor By my trouth you hitte it right For I was greatlie beholden to your Father and therefore I haue reason to wishe you well in that respect I would gladlie doe you what good I may Woman Why then you continew this minde to giue me your free warrant to speake in this case what I thinke and to cast all the doubtes and make all th'obiections I can against you that so you may the better resolue me in th' end Chauncelor How els In the name of God speake you minde boldlie neither shall you offend me with any thing you say For I imagine you can say nothing in this cause but I haue heard it alreadie Woman Well then doeth not this I pray you plainlie verifie and confirme that which I told you of before when I likened you to the Phariseis vz. That your own foolish Traditions and fruitlesse Ceremonies were dearer to you and of more pretious accoumpt then the Sacred ordinance of God Chauncelor How so I conceyue not that Woman No Did not you say that for my sake you would be cōtent to winck at the breach of the Booke and giue the Minister leaue to vse other prayers so I would be content in any sort to be Churched and keepe your monethlie and manerlie Ceremonie Chauncelor Why if I saied so you are the more beholden to me for that I doe not meane I tell you to shew euery bodie that favour Woman Well howsoeuer I may in this regarde thanke you for your loue to me yet to deale plainelie with you I can not therein praise you for your loue to the Church nor never shall till I see Preaching as much beholden to you as Churching is Chauncelor Why doe you thinke I doe not preferre the preaching of the worde before anie other ceremonie of the Church be it neuer so commendable Woman It should appeare no by your dealinge with our Minister Chauncelor Your Minister yea faith your Minister hath no more witte then hee occupies He knowes not who is his friend nor who is his foe I would to God he would be his owne friende once Stand sticking and mincing it at these bables and trifles as he doth when he might be quiet in his ministerie if he would him selfe Woman So might wee poore women whom you thus trouble be quiet too if we would bee Churched Our Minister you know is an honest man of life and a painfull Teacher in his place you can not charge him with anie misdemeanour for your life He preacheth amongest vs with great fruite and hath wonne manie to the Gospell and yet for refusall of your lawlesse subscriptiō beside the Statute and for not wearing of your surplus not Crossing in Baptisme you neuer let him rest among you but one while you are doeing with him in your Court an other while the Pursevant from the High Commission trounceth him So that yee make the poore man spend the better part of his poore living in iaunceling up and down about the moon shine in the Town-dich Chauncelor Why who is this long of gentle Cousen Is not all this long of himselfe There be as wise as learned as he that yeeld to all this you speake of and more then this for the peace of the Church Woman But I pray you tell mee Why may you not be as kinde to him in his Ministerie Preaching as you offer to bee to me in this Ceremonie of Churching You saye you preferre the preaching of the Gospell before anie ceremonie whatsoever if you meane in deede as you say then for Gods sake wincke a little at the breach of the Booke in him as well as you are contented to doc in me let not your loue to me in private bee greater then your loue to the Church in publike Looke a litle thorough your fingers and passe by as if you saw not his refusall of the Crosse and Surplus That so we may enioye the meanes of our salvation in peace And if in anie case you will yeelde to the breach of the Booke let it bee for the Gospell sake and not for a Ceremonie Chauncelor In good faith I can not tell what to say to you with beeing among the perverse you haue gotten as it were a kinde of habite of perversenesse I had rather then any golde your husband and you had neuer planted your selues in that Parish why you were well enough before and well accoumpted of among your neighbours and it must needs grieue many of your good friendes to see you in these tunes now Moman