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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	scripture_n	speak_v	write_v	3,332	5	5.5692	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00639	A defence of the reasons of the counter-poyson, for maintenance of the eldership against an aunsvvere made to them by Doctor Copequot, in a publike sermon at Pawles Crosse, vpon Psal. 84. 1584. VVherein also according to his demaunde is proued syllogisticallie for the learned, and plainlie for all men, the perpetuitie of the elders office in the church.	Fenner, Dudley, 1558?-1587, attributed name.; Stoughton, William, fl. 1584, attributed name.; Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624, attributed name.	1586 (1586)	STC 10772; ESTC S112582	18,117	32

were fallen away doeth complayne of it and doeth make the cause of their falling awaye not because they were not perpetual nor yet because they might not continue but the negligence and pride of the teachers Nowe that wee haue proued that hee required of the perpetuitie of these offices lett vs come to his reason why he denieth them to be perpetuall whiche is because wee can not firste proue the Elders to haue such giftes of prophecying dooing miracles c. But wee bidde him proue firste this strange and monstrouse assertion that it is necessarie for vs to proue it Secondly we will shew him the vanitie and detestable absurdities which folow this his demande The vanitie may appeare by these reasons out of the text The gouernours and the gift of gouernement are as much distinguished frō Prophetes doers of miracles as they are from teachers therfore to require such necessarie for gouernement more then doctrine is to ouerthrowe the purpose of the Apostle which is to shew howe euery office hath his seueral proper gift Secondly if the vse of such giftes as he speaketh of be no part of gouernemēt what necessitie is there of thē in Elders as they are Elders Thirdly we demaūd of him whether he require these giftes in al Elders or in some in whom he doth require thē whether he would haue all those giftes to be in them or some only If he require them in all he must proue first that they were in al the Elders in the Apostles time which he shall do ad graecas kalendas that is neuer If he require all those giftes in any let him proue that any Elder was furnished with them al which he shal neuer do If some only let him shew whiche are necessarie and which not And let him out of the scripture proue his saying and we will yeelde Thus we haue seene the vanitie of the demande marke the absurdities following First that they make themselues wiser then the Apostle who requireth no more in the dutie of an Elder then to be ouer the flocke with diligence Rom. 12.5.6 Secondly they require more in the Elders thē the Apostle required in a teaching Elder or a Bishop when he giueth the rule of his examinatiō 1. Tim. 3. Thirdly they may by the same rule throw out teachers seeing in this place the Apostle giueth such giftes no more to the Elders then to the teachers especially this consequence is necessarie because the principall ende of those giftes being eyther to deliuer doctrine or giue credit to it is more necessarie for the teacher then the gouuernor Fourtly seeing they vnderstande by Elders those who preach and will haue none gouerning only it remaineth that by his reason we must first proue those giftes to remayne in them eare we can proue such to remayne Lastly seeinge these giftes were cōmon to priuate persons yea to women euen to all sortes of beleeuers we must first proue by their reason these giftes to remaine eare wee can proue there be any church or faithfull men in the world These are the detestable absurdities which followe vpon this reason of theirs wherby the answer to it is euidēt that the Apostle setteth down there both offices as Apostles Teachers Prophetes Elders Deacons and also some giftes which were cōmon to all as ornamentes to confirme for a time Christian Religion Now althogh these giftes are long since ceassed yet the offices may remayne without them especially the offices of teaching exhorting gouerning which are for their vse the giftes required in them perpetual euery part of which answere hath bin before cōfirmed in the particulars Hitherto he hath labored against the trueth to ouerthrowe it Nowe fearing that all the instrumentes he had would not throttle the cause so as she should no more open her mouth hee seeketh to disguise her with a slaunder Where we will first see what he bringeth then we will mainteyne the contrarie The summe of that he obiecteth is they which stande for Discipline are thought to bringe in contention and to vndermine the power of the Magi●trate In this accusation first you must well obserue hee doeth not nor dareth not say it is so but that it is thought so To which it may be answered that it is thought that the other side seeke to driue out the sufficient ministerie that they alone may reigne pille the people af her Maiestie abuse thē grind them without hauing any of their filthines discouered It is thought of some also that they make a way to Atheisme Poperie and all confusion whylest they thrust our so many worthie and paynfull laborers out of the L. Vineyard and bring in ignorant vngodly riotouse idle and couetous persons in their steede Nay some of these are not onely thought but manifestly by experience in manye places felt Secondly you may obserue howe the light of his conscience stroue with his affections against the cause His affection and desire was to disgrace the cause it self as preiudiciall to the peace of the Church and ciuill Magistrate Now When in his cōscience he found he could deduct no such thing out of the matter of Discipline hee turneth from the matter to the persons and sayth they are thought so to do Why doth he not shew who they be that so thinke of them vpon what groundes by what signes and tokens by what counselles writings examples or deedes they haue giuen likelihood of it If hee can neither conclude any suche matter out of the cause it self nor proue any thing against the persons which seeke it How Is it not the maintenance of a malitious slaunder We haue haue harde what he sayth will he adde no ground of it Yes An admonition to Scotlande printed An. 1558. cōteineth cōclusions as straunge against the Estate as D. Sanders that traytors booke doth What doth it Doeth it conteyne flat treason that the Prince by any Ecclesiasticall power may be deposed or resisted That the Queens most Excellent Maiestie is an heretike or receyueth not Discipline and thetefore must be excommunicated and after accounted no lawfull Queene Hath any fauouring Discipline writtē these things or the like If he can not shewe any such thing what is he but a Preacher of slaunders at Pawles Crosse The booke he speaketh of to my knowledge I haue not seene neyther knowe where to haue it Yet I assure my selfe he can bring foorth no suche conclusions from any which hath spokē or written for Discipline But be it that some one man had written without ground or reason contrarie to the scriptures shal that or any mannes abuse blot out the credit which so many Churches in France Scotlande Germanie the lowe Countries hath brought to it as finding it holy peaceable and no small pillar both of the peace of the Church and ciuill gouernement When we consider what inconueniences followe any matter we must not consider what some whiche hold the cause would haue but what the cause of his owne nature will inferre For as the good meaning of a good man will not make a perilouss cause safe so the ill meaning of a noughtie mā will not make a safe and iust cause dangerouse I maruaile what cause may be found out to make Discipline hurtfull to the common wealth or what reason why the Magistrates authoritie and it shoulde not dwell peaceably togither The Kings and Rulers of Israel found it not so The Romanes after them found it not so they being Heathen more curious to looke into suche matters then any more ielouse more politike most ielouse ouer the Iewes of all others because of the King which they looked for to come in worldlie glorie could neuer yet finde out any such suspition In all their times it was quietly practised The Kings and Princes both Protestant which haue allowed it and popish as in France which haue permitted it they haue founde no such thing in it For the seconde point By what reason should the Magistrats authoritie be at such enimitie with Discipline or discipline with it Is it because the Magistrat will or can doo that which the Elders doe or the Elders will or can doe that which he doth Will the Magistrat watche ouer particular flockes admonishe euery sinner they finde out followe menne by spirituall meanes till they bring them to repentance will they them selues execute the spirituall censures of suspentiō excommunication and such like Is this his office or can his conscience beare this burthen Doeth the Elders meddle with any ciuill cause or vse anye oher meanes then which are spirituall Shall they doe things so closely that al their actes may not be seene of the Magistrate if he suspect any thinge Nay must not all thinges they doo come to open knowledge if they passe a priuate admonition Will they bring no good to the common wealthe meete with no seedes of sedition Shall they not be able to giue notice of the dispositions of al men Shall they not finde out Iesuites and all heretikes and bring them to light Shall not the smaler vices and sometimes foule ones also whiche the lawe nowe meddleth little with by this meanes bee cu●t off In deede then mens purses shoulde not bee picked as they are nowe Then so manye Veluet coates should not be maintayned by spiritual reuenewes But I will speake no more of these matters Only I conclude seeing men haue in the tyme of prosperitie more neede of admonition and wholsome Discipline seing the Eldership doth nothing which the Magistrat doeth nor can any way hurte him but he may see it better ordred then in persecution that as this order is necessarie alwayes so especially in the time of peace The Lord giue vs all to be of one minde to see the trueth and practise it Psal 80.14 Nehe. 1. 2. Tim. 1. Doctor Whitgift pag. 626. Cyprian lib. 3. Epist. 22 (a) Num. 27 Actes 20 Poimenes laon in the Poet. 1. Thes 5.12 2. Cor. 11.23 Ephe. 4.10 1 Cor. 1● 28 Mat. 28.19 ●ute th●sian proscem ze 〈…〉 oute d●chen epitilem Iames 5. Marke 16.17 Acte 2.16 17 18 19● Act. 21.8 1. Cor. 14.26.34 2. Chro. 19.11 Iere. 19.1 Hes 10.8 2. Reg. 6. 1. Sam. 30.27 28 29 30. Actes 4.5 6 12. 5.21 Act. 23.14.15.16 25 15.