AN ANSWER To a book called A JUST DEFENCE AND VINDICATION Of Gospel-Ministers and Gospel-Ordinances put forth by J. G. In which he pretends an Answer to E. B's Tryal of the Ministers and other things against the Quakers But on the contrary hath manifested that he is altogether Ignorant of the Gospel-Ministry and Ordinance as will appear to him that reads this Answer with desire to understand the Truth and so to receive Satisfaction And instead of clearing the Truth in any Particular he hath falsly charged God Christ the Holy Spirit the Primitive Churches and the Quakers with such things of which they were never any of them guilty as will appear in the following Testimony Given forth from him who desires the Edification and Satisfaction of all in the things appertaining to the Kingdom of God RICH. HUBBERTHORN The workers of inquity have no knowledge there is no faithfulness in their mouth their inward part is very wickedness Psa. 59. and with their words they shew forth the same London Printed for Robert Wilson at the Sign of the Black-spread 〈◊〉 and Wind-Mill in Martins l'Grand 1660. An Answer to the Priests Defence WHatsoever is written or acted against the Truth and those that walk in it is but a fulfilling of the Scripture of Truth which saith The way of the wicked is darkness and they know not at what they stumble Prov. 4. 19. Although the stumbling-stone be the Light the Foundation of many generations in rejection of which many go about to build and would be approved one of which I shall here mention John Gaskin who would Defend and Vindicate the Priests their Preaching Practice and Maintenance though contrary unto Christ his Apostles his Light and his Words declared in Scripture as will appear And first That his Testimony may be received he begins in an appearance of faigned humility and begging of Pardon for his slips and impertenences and rudeness of stile used against the Quakers saying his work is not with eloquency nor humane Arts In the Examination of which we do find that he hath often slipped and used much impertenency of speech and rudeness of stile and neither Eloquency Spirituality or true Humanity in his works many of which being so plainly seen to all is accounted not worth Printing again but somthing here is mentioned by which all the other may be Compared and Judged Again divers Reasons are alleadged as a cause of Printing J. G. his Defence of the Priests first he saith The great Malice and Envy against the Ministers and the many Letters and Printed Books sent by Quakers and the great growth and encrease in Errors and because many of his old Friends and Acquaintance are as he saith seduced from the Church and to strengthen such as are wavering through ignorance and weakness and to clear himself c. and that it might be seen come into many hands Answ. He that would accomplish those things before named to wit subdue Malice and Envy and Errors and instruct the ignorant and him that is out of the way and strengthen the weak he must be such a one as is led by the Spirit and walks in the Light of Christ which is so much hated and contemned by Priests and their Defenders that first those things may be subdued in themselves and then Minister against them in others but none of those things can be done by that spirit which hath ruled in J. G. but that his latter Reasons which he saith moved him to Print may be fulfilled that 〈…〉 That it may be seen and come into many hands and that to thy own shame when they read and consider thy unlearned Lodgick wherein thou goest to prove that it is not sufficient to bring us to Heaven to be freed from fin for thou saist A Horse hath no sin and so by thy comparison a man without sin is but as a Horse so that thou hast truly said Thy work is without Eloquence or Humane Art but seeing thou hast taken in hand to put things to publick view in thy next prove who those men are upon the Earth that are without sin are not sufficient for the Kingdom of Heaven and whether was it any thing that did separate man from God but sin And was not Christ onely made manifest to take away sin And is not man perfectly Righteous when his sin is taken away and made the Righteousness of God in him Which takes it away to wit the Lamb of God which all the Nations of them that are saved must walk in his Light and it is those that hate the Light and is against freedom from sin that have no understanding of the Mysteries of God which is like the Horse or Mule whose mouth must be held with Bit and Bridle and are like the Beast that perish but they that are freed from sin are not so neither is the Horse their Comparison but herein thou hast shamed thy self and thy Ministers that they should be so ignorant as neither to teach thee better Doctrine before thou didst write nor correct thee when thou hadst written but to suffer such a thing to appear in this Nation where Light is broken forth that the state of freedom from sin is no better than the state of a Horse but as the Scriptures saith Your folly shall be made manifest unto all men which Scripture is daily fulfilling and we are satisfied in it Again to â—ndicate the Priests of England to be Ministers of the Gospel thou bringst many Scriptures whereby thou wouldst prove them to be lawfully called though they be out of the Power of God and want the Power of that which they teach page 7. As the sons of Eli thou saist were lawful Priests though they were wicked men and this is a fit comparison as thou may read in the first of Samuel 2. 12. Now the sons of Eli were sons of Belial they knew not the Lord and so according to this thou hast rightly compared the Priests for though they have the name of being called yet know they the Lord no more than the Sons of Belial did Again in the same page thou saist The Scribes and Pharisees were called to teach and Judas was a true Apostle from which thou wouldst prove the Call of the Priests to be a true Call to the Ministry Answ. If the Priests did Minister as truly as the Scribes and Pharisees did that is read or speak the Scriptures truly then thou mighest exhort the People to do as the Priests say but not to do as they do but seeing that they do not truly speak the Scripture but by consequences pervert it as thou hast done in thy Book it is not therefore a good Doctrine to bid the People either do as they say or as they do because they both say falsly do falsly and as for thy comparing of them to Judas as for his being called and receiving part of the Ministry that they are not like unto him in because as yet they
have no part nor lot in that matter but for his Treachery and Covetousness bearing the Bag and betraying the Lord of Life for pieces of money in that they may be compared to him But thou saist The wickedness of the Person doth not disanul his Office being lawfully called thereunto until he be degraded from that Office And to prove it thou bring'st several Scriptures as Ezekiel 34. 3. where the Shepheards eat the Fat and cloath with the Wool and did not feed the Flock Esa. 56. 10 11. They are dumb Dogs that cannot bark sleeping lying down loving to slumber they all look to their own way every one for his gain from his Quarter come ye say they I will fetch Wine and we will fill our selves with strong drink and to morrow shall be as this day and much more abundant and these saist thou were truly called From which Example your Ministers as thou thus provest are lawfully called to the work of the Ministry but when these Ministers and People read thy Book they will not much commend thee for such a Defence for them But how dost thou prove that those before mentioned were lawfully called unto the work of the Ministry being wicked Persons But when thou read'st the Scripture over again thou maist see that those are such as the Lord said did run and he sent them not and said the Lord saith when he had not spoken unto them Jer. 14. 14. Now in this Vindication thou hast not done any thing of that pretented confuting E. B. his Book called A Just and Lawful Tryal of the Ministers and Teachers of this Age but hast rather confirmed it for he truly compared them unto those spoken of before mentioned and thou hast compared them as to the sons of Eli which were sons of Belial and knew not God and so his Book yet stands in force for a Tryal to such unanswered And again as for thy pleading for Tythes for such as are like the sons of Belial thou hast no Precept Practice nor Example in Scripture to plead for such a thing neither as such nor as the Ministers of Christ And whereas thou mention'st Act. 4 and Act. 5. and 1 Cor. 9. 4 5 c. These Scriptures speak nothing of Tythes nor of any Maintenance to the Ministry but onely how that when they had planted a Vineyard they might eat of the fruit and when they had gathered a Flock might eat of the milk and when they had sown spiritual things amongst a people they had power to eat and power to drink and so it was ordained that they who Preached the Gospel should live of the Gospel but it was not ordained that those who Preached the Gospel should live by forced Maintenance or by making Merchandize of mens Goods and Estates of which the Priests in England for which thou writest this Defence are guilty Again thou goest about to Defend the Prieâ—ts sprinkling of Infants saying It is a Sign or Seal of Salvation page 64. Answ. If this be true that all Children thus sprinkled with water have the Seal of Salvation by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ are by this Baptism made partakers of Grace and United into the Church as Members of the Church Why do you say both Priests and Professors that there is no falling from Grace have not many been so engrafted into the Church and received that Seal whom you now call Hereticks and Deceivers why do you so confound one Principle with another for we have been already so ingrafted into the visible Church and made partakers of that Grace which you say its impossible to fall from And thou bring'st Calvins words which saith That although there be but a little water cast upon our heads yet notwithstanding it is not a vain figure for the Heavens are opened upon us and God speaks in it as it were from Heaven and Christ is there present with his blood as Witnesses of the usage and operation of the Sacrament and saith Baptism is a Token and Proof of our Cleansing or a Seal and Character whereby God confirmeth unto us that all our sins are cancelled and abolished and that they may never be rehearsed nor imputed So then by this he that hath a little water cast on his Head he hears God speak in it and Christ being present with his blood washes away all sin and this is a proof of his Cleansing So why dost thou and the Priests speak and write against us as being fallen from Grace or departed from the Truth seeing we have received as well as you the Seal of the Covenant and Proof of Cleansing and cannot fall from it if your Doctrine be true but as for Spinkling Infants thou hast not brought one Scripture to prove it but saist Baxter against Tombes hath proved it and quotest Calvin and Beza as if their words were plainer proof for thy purpose then any Scripture for there is no Scripture without invented consequences that is a precept for it and when thou hast wearied thy self and canst not prove it thou saist whatsoever may be proved from the Scripture by consequence to be the scope and meaning of the Scripture is sufficient proof page 73. Again thou askest us a question To shew thee one Command or Example in the Scripture for the Baptizing of those that are growen up whose Parents one or both were Christians by professing the Gospel of Christ Answ. If thou knew the Scriptures or didst weigh thy own words it would stop thee from asking such foolish unlearned Questions for thou thy self confessest that those which were growen up were Baptized and that they had also received the Holy Ghost before they were Baptized and as for them or their Parents being called Christians by their Profession many beleivers were Baptised and followed Christ before the name Christians was given to them as thou may read Acts 11. 26. that after much people was gathered and so become Churches they were first called Christians at Antioch so whatsoever their Parents were called by Profession that is nothing to that which thou art about to prove sprinkling of Infants but to conclude thy proof for Infants Baptism thou quotes Rob. Brook who thou sayst hath read more Ecclesiasticall histories to find out the rise and beginning of Baptism of Infants in the Church of Christ then all the Quakers and yet he could neâ—er find the beginning of it so here all this while thou hast pleaded for that which thou knowest not who was the first Author of and so thou hast run out thy self into meer ignorance But that thou maist be informed made wiser than thy Teachers thy learned Readers of Ecclesiastical Historyes I shall shew thee the beginning of that Baptism and who first invented Holy Water In the reign of Pope Alexander was Holy Water first invented water mixed with salt and by the saying of these words we bless water mixed with salt among the people that all men sprinkled therewith may be Sanctified
and purified and this we command all Priests to do as Plynny writeth And hereby thou mayest know the first Father or Inventor of this your practise the Pope and not the Apostles so when thou writes again do not so undervallew al the Quake's as thou hast done in this thy book as to say that they dare not read Latine Books nor have read Histories and thou sayest we count it a sinn for Ministers to learn Latine But these are but false aspersions for we do not account it sinn to learn Latine Greek or Hebrew neither are we afraid to read them but we so far do read and know them that we have found out the Priests deceipt by pretending that of the Tongues which they had not and though you Preach and Practise that which you know not where it had it's beginning yet we know how deceit came in and how it hath overspread you with darknesse and ignorance and because you see not therefore you judge us to be blind but the Light of knowledge is arisen in which we see before the Pope his holy Water mingled with salt or sprinkling Infants was and see the beginning and End of those dark inventions and our Doctrine and Principles tends to the bringing of People to know a true living foundation for all their practices and that the darknesse of Popery and traditions of men may not alwayes keep people in blindnesse to practise the Popes inventious instead of the Apostles and Christ Doctrine who by the bright shining of his light is leading people to his Baptism which is by one spirit into one body by fire and by the Holy-Ghost and such can no longer be kept in that which doth not so much as wash away the filth of the flesh but comes to the Answer of a good Conscience and witnesseth the Baptism which saveth as the Apostle Peter saith 1 Pet. 3. 21. and such are come to the washing of Regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost Again to fill up thy book thou hast charged many false things upon us and so findst thy self work by enlarging thy lyes one after another As first thou sayst some of us have affirmed that Christ did never arise from the grave and that his body is rotted within the grave and that some of us have made a mock of his Doctrine of Justification by the imputation and the intercession of Christ Answ. These things are thy own and were never affirmed by any of us but on the contrary that Christ is arisen from the dead and is become our first fruits and by the imputation and intercession are we Justified and of God is he made unto us Justification and life Again thou saist we neither know nor understand what your Ministers preach Answ. Yes we both know and understand that they preach lyes in the Name of the Lord and we know and understand that thou art going about to make a defence and vindication for them in so doing Again thou sayst the Quakers say it matters not whether a man doe any good works seeing they make him not good Page 41. Answ. This is false for none of the Quakers ever said so for our goodnesse is of the Lord and not of works and because we have received goodnesse and mercy from him therefore doe we those things that please him and are obedient to his Will and Commands Again Page 43. that we say a man is saved by hearkning to the light within him and obeying the same Answ. We never said that by hearkning or obeying that man is saved but by him which they are to hear and obey are they saved and without hearkning to his voyce and obeying of him to whom he is preached there is no Salvation Again Page 47. Thou sayst the Quakers instead of blessing and praying for their Enemies curse them Answ. This is false for we blesse and curse not but all cursed practices words and actions we testifie against and for this cause are we accounted thy enemies because we tell thee the truth Again page 48. Thou saiâ—t instead of abhorring our selves we justify our selves Answ. This is of the number of the rest a false accusation for selfe is that which we beare witnesse against in all justifying nothing but what God justifieth and condemning nothing but what God condemneth Again page 49. Thou sayest the Quakers are so proud to think and say they are more perfect then the Apostle Paul Answ. When did any of the Quakers say they were more perfect then the Apostle but it seems thy tongue is at liberty to make a refuge for the Priests and fill a volume of paper with lyes Again page 51 thou sayst that many of the Quakers go up and down naked to manifest that they are as perfect as Adam was in Innocency Answ. Their going naked is as a Sign unto thee the Priests whom the Lord is now stripping of the sheeps cloathing that all may see your shame and nakednesse and that which you have been covered with is but as leaves and a Formal Notional Profession of God without his Life Power or Spirit and you must be as naked from this covering before you be Innocent as ever any Quaker hath been from their cloaths Again page 56. 57 thou sayest that we do condemn not only the Churches now in being but all that ever have been the Churches of Asia Corinâ—h Galatia and Thessalonica c. Answ. This is but an addition to thy former lyes for those Churches we do own and all such as do walk in their life and are guided by their Spirit for the Church of the Thessalonians was in God 1 Thes. 1. but thou hast appeared to be of another Spirit and hast manifested thy self to be a condemner of those Churches as well as of us as in page 55. thou saist in the Church at Corinth that there was such corrupt members among them as you can scarce find in the worst of your Congregations So of that which thou falsly chargest us thou art truly guilty thy self and so hast condemned those Churches and Iustified your selves But what corruption was it that was so bad in those Churches that is not in the worst of your Congregations Again as a proof for thy condemning your own Churches thou brings Brightmans words saying behold whatsoever is first that is true and whatsoever is later that is false Chap. 3. page 113. So that hereby by thy old Author and Logick thou hast proved all your Churches in England to be false for the Churches of Asia Corinth Galatia and Thessalonica these were the first but the Churches in England Episcopal and Presbytery these are latter therefore false Again pag 60. Thou sayest the Quakers say they are so perfect that they cannot grow in knowledge nor grace Answ. The Quakers never said so but on the contrary we do grow in knowledge and in grace whereby we se and comprehend how thou and the Preists do grow in rage enmity and false accusations against us and
we know also that you must fulfil your measure of Iniquity and that all manner of evil must be spoken against us falsly and so we are satisfied because we suffer not for evill doing but for well doing Again page 61. Thou chargest us not to obey the commands of Christ but do teach men to break his commands twice in one page and again in the next page Answ. All which doth but prove and manifest thy unbridled tongue under which is the poyson of Aspes but if thou or any other could in meeknesse and simplicity prove that wee have either broken any of his Commands or taught others to break them then we would be convinced and thou should be counted a reprover and instructer in righteousnesse but on the contrary we see that bitternesse and a lying spirit hath possessed thee and that thou only invents and Imagines false things to fil up thy book which we were never guilty of which never any sober man that had but the parts of a man would ever lay to our charge seeing that both our principles and practices witnesseth to the contrary Again to make thy Vollume large in page 82. thou brings the same lyes over again charging us to say That we are more fuller of the Spirit then the Apostles and of more knowledge and stronger in Faith then the Apostles Which Affirmation is thy own and not ours and therefore is returned back to be Condemned where it did arise In page 83. thou saist The Quakers will have no Order and page 84. thou saist We are wise in our own conceit and that we think our selves wiser than Christ or his Apostles or Churches All which is but multiplying lyes and so not worth much speaking unto but onely that People may see how thou hast run out thy self till thou hast no order over thy tongue nor over thy Pen which hast been so long time as above half a year in adding lye unto lye to make a Defence for the Priests and so it appears that Truth will not defend them and thy Defence of lyes will not long defend them for God will sweep away the refuge of lyes and he that loveth and telleth a lye as thou hast done hath no part in the Kingdom of God In page 94. thou accusest Sara Blackborow as concerning a Woman speaking in the Church as if she had said that the flesh was the Woman from which thou concludes That then the flesh must be married to Christ and so would make up absurdities from thy own words Answ. This is thy Ordinary way of proving Errour first to affirm a lye of thy own making charging it upon another and then draw a Conclusion Answering this lye but Sara Blackborow nor any other of the Quakers have ever said that the flesh was the Woman but that which Sara Blackborow said was That the flesh was to be silent and that which spoke in thee was that which was silly and was ever learning but when any doth Pray or Prophesie whether man or woman and speak forth that which God hath made manifest that is The Spirit of the Father in both and is not to be quenched for there is neither male nor female but all is one in Christ and in the Spirit from which Preaching and Prophesying proceeds and the Promise is that daughters as well as sons shall Prophesie And in the Church at Corinth they might all Prophesie one by one that all might hear and all might be edified but thou saist Those women that did Prophesie it was not in the Church Where then did they Prophesie if not in the Church Or what was the Church For it is written 1 Thes. 1. 1. That the Church is in God And where must a woman be when she Prayes or Prophesies if not in the Church which is in God And where was it that Philips four Daughters prophesied whether in the Church or out of it And where was it that that Priscilla did Minister whether in the Church or out of it And Pheba a servant of the Church whether she might not Pray nor Prophesie in it And Priscilla who was a helper of Paul in Christ and laboured with him in the Gospel Rom. 16. Might not Pray or Prophesie in the Church But now to speak the Truth in plainness to thee that which thou Cavel'st against Is not the woman nor the man simply considered But it is the Spirit speaking in either which thou cannot bear for where the Spirit of the Father speaks in man or woman thou sets thy self against it to oppose it And thou saist Susan Bond said Christ was the Husband and of him they were to be taught and thou saist Sara Blackborow did like the Answer well Answ. Who could like it ill Was not that a good Answer And thou thy self must own Christ to be thy Teacher and learn of him before ever God will make use of thee in his service or work though the Priests may make use of thee for their Defender Again page 99. thou saist We deny that any should either Rule in the Church or have any Honour Answ. No we do not deny the Head of the Church which is Christ to Rule and to have all the honour but we deny any Priest to bear Rule by his means or to receive the Honour due unto Christ for we see they are such as seek Honour of one another and not the Honour which belongs to God onely Now whereas thou goes about to Vindicate That wicked men may sing Psalmes and to prove it makes this Argument If any be merry let him sing Psalms Now wicked men are merry as well as godly though they haue no true cause Ergo page 87. Answ. This Logick doth but prove thy own ignorance and darknesse not the thing intended by thee as we shall shew but first to Answer thee with thy own contradiction Dost thou not say in the next words before this Argument that the chief ground or cause is the Moral duty lying upon all men by the commandment of God Now if wicked men do sing Psalmes by the commandment of God do they do it without a true cause Is not the Commandment of God a true cause of any action to them which are commanded by him But in this thou art but building again that which thou hast destroyed and so makes thy self a transgressor and so let thy own confusion correct thee In the same page thou sayst Thou wilt make good what thou hast written by Scripture Come then here we shall try thee Where in the Scripture dost thou prove that wicked men may be merry and sing Psalmes though they have no true cause but on the contrary hast thou not read in the Scriptures Ps. 69. That David was the song of the drunkards and if drunkards now in Taverns and Ale-houses say sing I am not puft in mind I have no scornful eye and say That as a weaned child they have behaved themselves by thy Argument if they be