Antichrist given us to his son Christ and hath so sanctified to us that baptising with water in his name which they idolatrously and synfully abused as wee need no other outward washing but to be baptised by his spirit as his dealing with such as had been circumcised in Israel after they were become a false church and were divorced from him and returned againe unto him doth assure us 2. Chron. 30. ch Ezr. 6. 21. His reason may also as probably bee framed thus The Lords Supper or Masse in the Church of Rome is from heaven not of men Math. 26. Luk. 22. and is derived unto us from the Apostles of Christ through the loynes of that Church which have from that time reteyned and continued it to this day Therefore it is not an idoll or lying signe howsoever all protestants with one mouth call it justly an idoll an horrible idoll an abomination and the like The Mininistery of the church of Rome is from heaven and not of men Rom. 12. and is derived to us from the Apostles through the loynes of that church which have from that time continued it to this day Therefore it is not the Man of Syn the Beast the Antichrist as all protestants say and as Mr. Iohnson himselfe hath pleaded in his last book but the true ministery and ordinance of the Lord. The like may be sayd for their Excommunications and all other divine ordinances which that church hath synfully profaned Yea the very same plea might all the heathens have made for their sactifices and divine ordinances which from Noe and his sonns through the loynes of their parents were derived unto them as before I have manifested Whereas I described the abominable manner of baptising in the Church of Rome how heathen-like they profane Christs ordinance mine opposite not being able to justifie their impiety yet pleadeth his best thus But will it therefore follow that the baptisme there had is not Gods ordinance but an idoll a false and lying signe c. Answ. It followeth that they in their Antichristian estate and abuse have changed Gods ordinance into an idoll and lying signe as the Gentiles of old changed the truth of God into a lye Rom. 1. 25. And have added also many lyes and lying signes of their own devising as bad as did the heathens Or will it follow because of their errours and corruptions that the baptisme there had is to be renounced and an other new one to be received Answ. Their lyes and lying signes and changing of the truth into a lye are all to bee renounced but the ordinance of God which he hath restored to the former truth unto those that repent and beleeve in him is not to be renounced and a new received and such is the outward washing with water in his name 2 Chron. 30. Ezr. 6. 21. Is every thing abused or misapplyed by men straight way an idoll Answ. Every thing so abused as they doe baptisme and the Lords Supper is straight way an idoll for divine honour is given to the creature and work of a wicked mans hand Exod. 20. Yea let him be a witnes against himselfe for afterward in pag. 246. hee sayth touching book-book-prayer that it is an image and similitude of spirituall prayer which yet it is not And so these bookes and stinted prayers prescribed by man in the worship of God come in deed to bee idols supplying the place of the word and spirit of God which ought not to be Here the abuse of the book by his owne grant maketh it in deed an idoll for the book may lawfully be used and read of men for instruction as wel as written Sermons Homilies c. Doe they that are baptised bow downe to it and worship it Answ. Did the infants that were offred to Molech Levit. 20. â— bow down and worship it Or they that made their belly their God Phil. 3. 19. did they bow down to their belly and worship it Or doe they that make the book an idol as himselfe sayth bow down and worship the book How strangely doth hee plead as if idols cannot be set up in and worshipped with the heart But they bow down worship the bread in the Supper will he grant that to be an idoll Jf that were doen unto it sayth hee as was unto the Sun among the Jewes why might it not be stil notwithstanding Gods ordinance in it selfe as the Sun was the true Sun and Gods creature even unto them and in that their estate whiles they made it an idol to themselves Answ. O fraud and guile in pleading for idolaters Every creature of God is good every ordinance of God is holy in it selfe who doubteth of it If this distinction helpeth the popish sacraments it helpeth the heathens idols of silver and gold which are Gods good creatures in themselves But it is a mere fallacie to reason as he doth from the Sun to Baptisme from a creature which is an absolute substance to a sacrament which is a relation of the covenant between God and men No idolatry unbeleef or other wickednes can hinder the Sun from being Gods creature unto men in that their synfull estate If it bee likeweise in the sacrament then no idolatry unbeleef or other wickednes can hinder baptisme and the Lords supper from being true signes and seales of Gods covenant of grace and forgivenesse of synns unto Turks or Pagans in their synfull estate if they baptise with water in the name of the Lord and eat the bread and wine in the Supper of our Lord. But he should have knowen that common received rule of all truly religious that Nothing is in deed a sacrament without the use ordeyned of God as we are taught of the Apostle This is not to eat the Lords Supper 1. Cor. 11. 20. The water that flowed out of the rock was the same creature of God to men that drunk of it and to the beasts that drunk of it Numb 20. 11. but it was a sacrament to men onely using it for a confirmation of their faith by a divine institution 1. Cor. 10. 4. Further by his reason it is undenyable that the Pope himselfe whom he acknowledgeth to be Antichrist and all that partake with him in his Masse notwithstanding all their idolatry and heresie thereabout doe eat the true sacrament signe and seale of the forgivenesse of their synns And why then should hee deny the Pope to bee as good a Christian as himselfe seing all they are blessed whose synns are forgiven them Rom. 4. 6. 7. Let it be observed that they baptise onely in the name of the Lord and with acknowledgement of the Articles of the Christian saith as in their form of baptisme may be seen Answ. And let it also bee observed that they sacrifice their Masse or celebrate their idolatrous supper onely in the name of the Lord and with acknowledgement of the same Articles of Christian faith even by the Pope himselfe Why then hath
of the abuse our question is of the thing it selfe notwithstanding their sinful abuse Ans. Our question is of popish baptisme which cannot bee rightly handled without looking to their abuses for how should we judge of the heathens worship and sacrifices if wee looke not upon their abuses as Paul doth in Rom. 1. The same I answer to his 5. exception of their opinions and errours Take away the errours of actions and what fault can we finde with any 6. If the Romish baptisme be a lye in the right hand of all that receive it then of infants then also in their own right hand that were baptised there Not to speak of the Martyrs c. Ans. There is no respect of persons with God Bee they old or yong better or worse syn is syn in all Though Gods grace in Christ purgeth syn from his elect which remaineth in the reprobates His 7. 8. and 9. exceptions are vain and repetitions of former things without conviction If Bellarmine or any speak truth wee may speak it with them so Paul speaketh with the heathen Poets Tet. 1. 12. 13. Act. 17. 28. 10. Jf they mean the true sacraments in Christs Church seale not up to Gods people forgiveness of sinns it is an errour if they meane that they doe not themselves take away sinns and conferr grace they use shifts and keep not to the poynt of the relation here spoken of and as it is appoynted to bee by the Lord himself Answ. The first I grant him and hee knew well it was not my meaning The latter I have proved that they being under Gods wrath 2. Thess. 2. have no seale from God of forgivenesse of synns in that estate And their doctrine of conferring grace by the work doen is hereticall and idolatrous which he not being able to gainsay puts it away as his manner is with a shift 11. From Gods sentence of condemnation touching Antichrist and his adhaerents they reason to Gods baptisme never condemned by the Lord but still continued in the Church and Temple of God where Antichrist sitteth Ans. Of his own mouth let him be judged Wee reason onely of Antichrist and his adherents the Whore of Babylon or adulterous church which hee sayth are condemned of God How then doth God give them the signe and seale of grace forgivenesse of synns Gods baptisme wee condemne not neither our Lords Supper but Antichrists Christening and Masse we deny to be Christs baptisme and supper Hee still beggeth the question which he should prove And let him take away Antichrist and his adhaerents and the church of Rome whereof we reason wil be vanished as smoke and come to nothing as take away Christ and his adhaerents so there will bee no Christian Church nor sacraments to be found 12. From the brasen serpent which was but a temporary and extraordinary signe the use whereof was ceased when it was thus perverted c. they reason to baptisme which is an ordinary signe whose use still continueth and may never be taken away or destroyed to the end of the world Ans. We reason not from the one to the other but by the abuse of the one we shew the abuse of the other And what is this in him but a shift to plead the temporarinesse of that signe For if they had burnt incense to it in the wildernesse or if they had burnt incense to the Cherubims or brazen Bulls or pillars which were continued signes they had made idols of them nevertheless Otherweise the wheaten god in the Popish supper is no idol seeing the use of the Lords Supper continueth to the worlds end as well as baptisme And hitherto of the shifts as he calleth them wherein how he hath shifted in sted of answering by the word of truth the wise reader may see Like these are his catalogue of Errours 1. That the baptisme had in the church of Rome is an idol c. Ans. 1. This is proved by the 2. commandement Exod. 20. whiles they ascribe divine honour to the creature 2. It is proved also by his owne assertion that bookes of prayer read for prayer are idols as before I shewed from his words in his last book 3. He sheweth not one word to prove it an errour in me but sayth Of which more hereafter Thus vain tantologies are his arguments to oppose the truth which he calleth Errour 2. That whereas idols are of two sorts both the kinds are in Popish baptisme Jf it be as the brazen serpent that from an holy signe was perverted to an idol it should presently be destroyed as 2. King 18. 4. Answ. I deny his inference If they had burnt incense to the Temple should it have been destroyed The brazen serpent was named but for an instance to shew that holy signes may be made idols by wicked men This doctrine hee being not able to convince leaveth it and would evade by the destroying of it As if all idols must bee destroyed The heathens made idols of the Sun Moon Starrs Beasts Fishes Mountaines Lakes c. Must all these therefore be destroyed If men make an idol of their King as did the Babylonians Dan. 6. 7. must the King presently be destroyed whoever heard of such divinity That which hee addeth of the Popes crossings exorcismes c. is before answered for he sayth Our question is of the baptisme it selfe as if those were not a part of Popish baptisme He would have wicked mens actions separated from all their synns errours and wickednes in doing them So in deed I could justifie all idolatry in the world for take away the errour and syn of an action and that which remaineth must needs be good 3. They say not they have renounced the abuses and kept the baptisme it selfe c. but say they have renounced that Romish baptisme as an impure idol in their abuse If they have in deed so doen then here again is notable errour and Anabaptistry And now then what outward baptisme have they remaining to themselves Ans. Neither doth Solomon say the abuse of the wickeds sacrifice is an abomination and except the sacrifice as holy but he sayth expresly The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord Prov. 15. 8. He was answered before to his two baptismes outward and inward that the Apostle and elsewhere himselfe maketh but one baptisme Eph. 4. 5. And the outward part thereof we reteyne as now sanctified to us of God as the outward cutting of the idolatrous Israelites was to them that repented 2. Chron. 30. Ezr. 6. 21. which again he putteth off till afterwards 4. Note also that the brazen Serpent was not in deed an idol but an holy ordinance of God which in time came to be idolatrously abused c. Ans. He sayth all things but proves nothing It was in deed an idol and an holy ordinance idolatrously abused also These things stand well together The Sun was in deed an idoll to them that worshiped it and yet it was
and people so doth the Antichristian of Antichrist his ministers and people This Beast hath seven heads and ten hornes Rev. 17. 3. the ten hornes are sayd to be ten Kings v. â—2 as in Dan. 7. 24. the ten hornes out of that kingdom are ten kings these kings are none of the hierarchy wherefore the whole body of this beast conteineth more then the Pope and his hierarchy The Lamb against whom the Beast with his hornes fighteth Rev. 17. 14. Mr. Iunius expoundeth to be Christ and his Church why may not we by like reason expound the Beast to bee Antichrist and his Church Finally the Beast sayth Mr. Iunius * himselfe is the Romane Empire made long agoe of civill Ecclesiastical the chief head whereof hee maketh the Pope to beâ— And the Beast of Rome sayth he of a civil Empire is made an ecclesiastical Hierarchie The Whore he expoundeth to be the spiritual Babylon which is Rome so then by mine opposites plea neither did Mr. Iunius say neither ever entred into his thought that the ecclesiastical Roman Empire since the Pope was head of it or the hierarchy was ever married unto Christ. As for the Whore the Church which rideth this Beast he calleth it the False-Christian Church over which Antichrist ruleth and Antichrists Church which title mine opposite will not beare at my hand and that Antichristian Church which the Angel biddeth cast out and measure it not in Rev. 11. 12. Mr. Iunius explaineth thus As if he should say it belongeth nothing to thee to judge those which are without 1. Cor. 5. 12. which be innumerable look unto those of the houshold onely or unto the house of the living God Notwithstanding all this Mr. Iohnson would needs measure it for the true Church House and Temple of God so well doe Mr. Iunius and he accord together To a testimony which I alleaged out of D. Fulk concerning the miserable blindnesse of people in Popery of which mine opposite sayth he might have been better aduised hee to requiâ—e me as he thinketh alleageth a speech of Mr. Broughtons who sayth Millions of millions of Romes clients are saved Brought on Rev. 13. 18. p. 203. Answ. Would he be content that Mr. Broughton should decide our controversie touching the Church of Rome Thus then sayth that author in the same book The Popes clients are the taile of the great Dragon Thence from Rome was the Rebellion to arise Man of syn Apollyon c. to set up or depose states and to have a people of his own frame and to burne the true Temple of God The Popes power driveth the Church not to be seen for certaine hundreds of yeares The Pope wresteth al that is spoken of the true Church into protection for his synagogue of Satan Rome passeth al the enemies of the Church in cruelty and idolatry Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezar were never so hardened The prophane Caesars did not so strictly hinder all use of Religion Rome hath farr passed the old Babel in idolatry The Pope followeth al heathen superstition in name staffe apparel of Caesars and Temples setting but a face of Christianity upon them All their doctrine is such that their Temples Masse and dayly profession in al things is from the unclean spirit and their whole policie is a lye The Beast which is ascended out of Abyssos that is al his eorporations millions of millions alpapists goe from their Abyssos of black ignorance unto Abyssos Luk. 8. whither the Divils shal come in their time to be tormented for ever ever These sundry the like coÌ„mendations doth the author alleaged give of the church of Rome which mine opposite pleadeth for and taking hold of a phrase wresteth it for his purpose from the mans meaning who seemeth not to speak of the popish church but of the ancient Christian for these are there Mr. Broughtons words And for Julius the captaine who was so careful for S. Paul that for his sake the liâ—e of the prisoners were spared Act. 27. God would not record this but to save millions of millions of Romes clients for S. Paul but for the unthankeful to S. Paul and forgers that Peter was at Rome who never came neere it he stil reserved Pilats holiness that Popes selfe-murder should be the reward Was not here a testimony well alleaged So in other places of his book he quoteth Mr. Brightman and others whose writings directly cross that which he pleadeth for in many things as they that read the authors may see and anone I will set downe their sayings No marvell then if hee wrest my words as where next he sayth that that which the Apostle speaketh of the Man of sin and of them that perish because they receive not the love of the truth c. 2. Thess. 2. 9. J apply for exclusion from pardon and certain condemnation to the whole Church of Rome and so to all the members thereof and that for all ages that either have been are or shal be ever since the Man of syn was seated there Answ. I sayd no more but thus God if it were granted that he is the husband of this whore hath promised her no pardon but delivered her to Satan to be seduced deluded damned 2. Thes. 2. 9. 11. 12. I speak not here of those in Rome that have withstood her whoordoms which have been many nor of those to whom at last God hath given repentance unto life which I hope are moe nor of other his elect but of the whore in generall whose damnation is shewed in Rev. 17. and 18. yea th'Apostle speaketh more particularly That they all might be damned who beleeve not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness Behold how hee sayth they all which some evill minded man might urge against the Apostle as mine opposite doth against me But wise men know that the promises of life to the true Church pertain not to the reprobates that are in it so the threatnings of death to the false Church take not hold on Gods elect which are therein Object Jf this harlot the Church of Rome was never Christs spouse otherwise then all the world was by our first parents Adam and Noe how then hath she broken the covenant of wedlock if she never were in it how can she be called a whore in respect of Christ any more then the heathens that never knew God in Christ How can she be sayd to be in Apostasie c. Answ. Of the state of the Gentiles I have spoken before and proved them to have been all in the covenant of grace in Christ from Gen. 9. 9. c. But they generally fell from God to idolatry which is whoredom and apostasie and were in time rejected of God who renewed his covenant with one small nation of the Iewes and yet saved his elect among the Gentiles also So the Christian Churches planted by the Apostles soon fell from
is by their owne grant the man of syn of whom the Apostle here speaketh c. Therfore the church of Rome is the Temple of God also that here is spoken of I answer This argument I might wholly grant and not hurt the cause I plead for For though the church of Rome be the Temple of God which Paul speaketh of yet followeth it not that it is Gods true Temple or true Church which is the point that should be concluded seing the scriptures often speak of things as once they were though so they continue not still as also they speak of things according to the outward pretense and shew that is made of them though in deed and trueth they be nothing less The first is manifest by these and other like instances Abigail is called the wife of Nabal 1 Sam. 30. 5. though Nabal was then dead and his wife maried to David Simon is still called the Leper Mat. 26. 6. though he was then clensed of his leprosie The king of Tyrus an heathen man that lived in Ezekiels dayes is sayd to have been in Eden the garden of God to have been upon the holy mountaine of God and to have walked in the middest of the stones of fyre Ezek. 28. 13. 14. meaning that he had been in Gods church on mount Sion among the people of God although not he himself but Huram his predecessor many yeres before in the dayes of David and Solomon was the man that became a proselyte in Israel and helped to build the Temple 2 Chron. 2. 3. 16. even as if a man should speak to the Bishop of Rome at this day and tell him what he was for a Bishop in th'Apostles dayes and how now he is degenerate and become the man of syn The mountaines of Horeb and Tabor where God once gave his Law and Christ was transfigured are after still called the mount of God and the Holy mount 1 King 19. â— 2 Pet. 1. 18. because they had been for the time sanctified by the presence of God And so the Temple in Ierusalem after the Iewes had crucified Christ refused the gospel were broken off because of unbeleef and the sacrificing and worshiping in that place was ended yet is it until the utter ruine of it by the Romans called the holy place Mat. 24. 15. Thus also the Citie become an harlot is called the faithfull Citie Esai 1. 21. the wicked that hath forsaken his righteousnes is named arighteous man Ezek. 18. 26. according to their former and not their present estate And when these titles are given them it is not to justifie them at all but to aggravate their syn So for the second that things are called according to the outward appearance and pretext set upon them though they be in deed false is evident by these and the like examples false Gods which are but idols are called gods usually so one Prophet calleth those the Philistians gods 1 Chron. 14. 12. which an other calleth their images 2 Sam. 5. 21. False prophets are called Prophets 1 King 22. 6. 22 and Balaam a Soothsayer among the heathens Jos. 13. 22. is called a Prophet 2 Pet. 2. 16. The evil spirit whom the witch of End or raised up for Saul is called in the scripture Samuel 1 Sam. 28. 11. 12 15. 16. 20. by reason wherof the Papists contend that it was Samuel in deed and not the Divil urging the letter as mine opposite doth urge against me this phrase of the Temple of God The idolatrous Temple which Ieroboam made in Israel in honour of the God which had brought them out of Egypt is called the house of their God Amâ—s 2. 8. yet that it was his true house or temple I never heard of any that would affirme though it was the true God whom they worshiped therin for Baal with his house was then destroyed out of Israel 2 King 1â— 27. 28. Now mine opposite hath given us a good rule in this his last book when answering the Anabaptists he sayth The word of God is not the bare letter or outward syllables but the intendement and meaning of the holy Ghost by whom it was given Which should carefully be observed by the due consideration of the scriptures with the circumstances therof and by the conference of other places of scripture and the proportion of fayth layd togither Which whiles the Anabaptists neglict they look on the scripture partially and press the letter extreamly without consideration of the true and right meaning therof These words of his are true the more it is to be lamented that he himself would so press the letter against me and not weigh the meaning of the same by it self and other scriptures and the proportion of fayth layd togither In alleaging this text he layeth downe the words thus There shal come an apostasie or falling away wheras the Apostle sayth except there come an apostasie or falling-away first which word first may intimate that the church should fall away from the love of the trueth before the man of syn should be revealed and this is apparant by the 10. verse where the people whom Antichrist seduceth are sayd to be them that perish because they received not the love of the trueth that they might be saved Or if the word first which mine opposite leaveth out be understood before Christs coming then is it meant of the apostasie or the falling away so called by an excellencie as exceeding all other And is not to be referred to Antichrist the head onely but to Antichristians the bodie also who after other synns should fall away with Antichrist and be damned with him as in the 11. verse it is sayd God shall send them strong delusion that they should beleeve a lye shat they all might be damned who beleeve not the trueth but had pleasure in unrighteousnes So that by the whole scope of this scripture it is evident the Apostle divideth not the people of the church of Rome from the Bishop and ministers of the same as if the people should be Gods true Temple Christs true Church under his covenant and so in the state of grace when the Bishops and ministers are the Divils Temple Antichrist the man of syn and so in the state of damnation but maketh both bishops and people deceivers and deceived all of them under wrath and condemnation otherweise then my opposite would perswade For he pleading thus The Apostle speaking of Antichrist describeth him thus There shal come an apostasie c would have men think that the Bishop and ministers of the church of Rome are the apostasie and the people not contrarie to all the scope of this scripture contrarie also to Paul in 1 Tim. 4 1. where he foretelleth of some that should apostate or depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of Divils meaning it of the people deceived by false teachers yea it is contrary also to mine opposites own graunt who
hee pleaded against the Pope and his Hierarchy that they they onely are the Man of syn the son of perdition the Beast the Antichrist and why wondred he so at me when I called for proofe that Christ was maried to that Beast seeing he hath the same baptisme the same Lords Supper the same beleef touching the Articles of faith that the people of his church have But their counterfeit profession of Christ is before discovered And they that baptize which are the Hierarchy he confesseth to be the Man of syn the Antichrist they are none of the church as we have heard but ulcers gangrenes c. what now have such to doe with the name of the Lord or administration of the seales of his covenant And compare with this that which himself sayth in the 3. page of his book that the action of baptisme is wholly enjoyned and layd upon the baptiser and not upon the baptised If this be so where hath God layd the action of baptizing upon Antichrist the Man of syn and if God hath not layd it upon him how can hee truely doe it in Gods name How will they prove sayth he that it is a lying signe unto them in their estate seeing baptisme as the other sacraments in Israel and under the Gospel hath this in it to be a signe by the ordinance of God not at the pleasure of man And God is the God of truth and appoynteth no lying signes but true Neither can mans iniquity make Gods signes to be lying signes Synful therfore and erroneous it is so to think if not also blasphemous so to speak Answ. And was it synfull and erroneous thinketh he in Paul when he sayd They changed the truth of God into a lye Rom. 1. 25. For if mans iniquity cannot change Gods signes into lying signes how should it change the truth of God into a lye And how could Ieremie have proved unto the Iewes if mine opposite had then lived to plead for them that those were lying words when they sayd The Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord c. Ier. 7. 4. for had they not in deed the Temple of the Lord his true ordinance and signe whereof they spake The word of God is truth Ioh. 17. 17. How then should mans iniquity make Gods truth to be a lye unto themselues though they pervert the word unto all manner false-doctrine errour and heresie Idols are lies Esa. 44. 20. Ier. 16. 19. 20. How can the Pope make an idoll of the bread in the sacrament though he fall downe and worship it and beleeve it is his maker seeing as it is bread it is a true thing and Gods good creature as it is sacramentall bread it is a true signe by the ordinance of God who appoynteth no lying signes Is it not blasphemous now and would he not rend his clothes as did Caiaphas if he should heare one call the Popes sacrament of the altar an idol or a lying signe unto him in that estate But to conclude The sacraments are in deed signes by the ordinance of God not at mans will Gods ordinance maketh them signes of grace to the faithful receivers onely 1. Cor. 11. 20. 29. Rom. 2. 25 Act. 8. 36. 37. If infidels and Antichrists falsly challenge and usurp Gods signes and abuse them to open idolatry and their own perdition they change the truth of Gods ordinance into a lye unto themselves and whiles they vainly think to have forgivenesse of synns by them they add syn unto syn and receive their own damnation Whereas I had set downe two reasons to prove the Popish baptisme false and a lying signe unto them mine opposite passeth them over as too heavy for him and cometh to set downe differences between Gods ordinances and mens corruptions Gods signes and mens errours Mariage meates and drinks and the abuses of these the scriptures and the errors gathered from them the Sun Moon and Starrs as they are creatures and as they are made idols and worshiped of men c. Wherein he laboureth to prove the thing which we hold and doth most injuriously intimate against us as if we thought the contrary Should we be so wicked as to imagine the ordinances of God or his creatures to be evill in themselves Farr be it from us Nay we say that the papists for abusing the sacraments and turning them to lyes and idols shall have the greater judgement not for abusing bread and wine and water as they are creatures onely but for abusing them as they are sacramentall signes ordeyned of Christ which maketh their profanation more horrible their damnation more just But this is a practise of many that plead for errour to leave the arguments which doe convince them and to propone new questions and reasons of their owne that they may seeme to say something by multitude of words So when I shewed the example of the idolatrous Israelites that repenting and forsaking their false Synagogues lying signes in them usurped they needed not a new outward cutting or circumcising as is shewed at large in our former writings Discovery p. 116. 120. Apolog. p. 110. 113. He passeth over the reasons manifested in those books as if he had never seen them when as the one was most of it penned by himself And now he pleadeth Wheras they say that circumcision was also a lying signe and false sacrament to Jsrael in their defection how doe they prove it where doth the Scripture teach it will they have us take it on their bare word and beleeve that their saying are Oracles c. Answ. He might have seen reasons in the books before cited besides those that I have set down But thus in seeking to wound us he hath smitten through his own sides as if himselfe when he wrote those things in our Apologie would have had men beleeve his bare word and that his sayings were Oracles Whereas if ever hee wrote soundly in his life he did it in that Apologie as all men of good judgement may perceive Further now to answer him I say that I spake of their lying signes which implyed their Passover and sacrifices as well as their circumcision And those being so profaned as for them they were by Gods Law to bee cut off as murderers Levit. 17. as sacrificers to Divils not to God Deut. 32. 17. 2. Chron. 11. 15. 15. 3. were they then true signes unto them of Gods grace and fauour and forgivenesse of their synns in Christ The Scripture teacheth they could not be partakers of the Lords table and of the table of Divils 1. Cor. 10 21. In particular for their circumcision I proved it thus True circumcision was the seale of the righteousness of saith Rom. 4. 11. Jsrael in their apostasie were fallen from the faith Hos. 11. 12. they were without the true God without Priest to teach without Law 2. Chron. 15. 3. and how then could they have the true circumcision the seale of