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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A28884	The pride and avarice of the clergie, viz. parsons, vicars & curats, hindering the reformation discovered in a plain and familiar dialogue between Philalethes and presbyter / by Abraham Boun, gent.	Boun, Abraham.	1650 (1650)	Wing B3836; ESTC R30307	53,217	195

professing Christianitie are not members of the visible Church but such as are admitted as Church-Members Pr. Well what ever some others think in all places in this Land where Parishes are divided there is either a lawfull Minister or one who stands in place of such who in some degree preacheth or at least publisheth by reading the word of God and administreth the Sacraments to the people therefore in charitie they ought to be accounted the Church of God Ph. The division of Parishes and such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of are not sufficient to give the Parish Congregation the denomination of a visible Church of Christ For then must almost all the Congregations under the Papacie be visible Churches for amongst them the Parishes are divided and so they were in England almost 340. before any Reformation And those Popish Congregations had the word of God dailie read nay and preached constantly and expounded in manie places by their Friers and Postillers as may be seen by their works in Print Nay and their verie maß-Mass-Books have much of the word of God in them although most miserably corrupted and mingled with their own inventions They have also had both Sacraments amongst the Papists for a long time and have yet at least Calvin Instit. l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 11. Baptisme mingled with Popish Ceremonies of which the Cross is the worst and some other footsteps of a true Church And if these had made a Congregation a true Church poore Penry was unwise to publish that a great part of Wales never had the face of a Church of Christ the Parishes being divided and the Churches furnished with such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of Yet he and others have formerly charged the State with refusing the Gospel and rejecting Christ and his pure worship in as much as there was no Reformation although it cost him and others their lives for their boldnes Entri Cook Judit pa. 352. Pr. You speak of dark Corners of the Land as if none were in better condition you may finde amongst the manie thousand Parishes of this Nation manie visible Churches of Christ and mine in particular Ph. I doubt not but there are manie visible Churches of Christ in this Common-wealth and true Ministers of Christ lawfully called But when I pray you became your Parish to be a true visible Church of Christ Pr. My Parish hath been a visible Church ever since it was instituted and the Church founded you know not the contrarie and therefore ought to admit it having so continued beyond the memorie of man until this day Ph. When was your Church founded Pr. You your self have confessed that the Gospel was planted in England before Poperie came to its height and the Ministerie and Churches were then setled and had succession from the Apostles daies shew me when the Succession failed Ph. If I should admit the place that you call Church viz. the meeting Place to have been built before Poperie yet this proves not that the Congregation is a visible Church your succession hath had several interruptions and discontinuance First it is to be considered that the whole Current of Historie agree that the Romans commanded the better part of Brittaine from the time of Julius Caesar until Theodosius the younger which was almost five hundred years and the tenth Persecution about 337. years after Christ during which time there were not above five of the Emperours who were either Christians or shewed favour to Christians but generally all the rest first or last in their times were wicked Persecutors Heathens and worshippers of Idols some of which by exquisite Torments wasted the Churches of Christ and drove the Professors into corners they not daring to meet in publick When the Roman Empire was broken or at least was grown to an ebb the Saxons invaded this Island and about the year foure hundred and fiftie the Brittains were beaten into Wales by Gormundus and thence grew the great Colledge of Moncks at Bangor with whom Austin contended And the Saxons as well as the Romans were Heathens and had their Idol Priests Flammins and Arch Flammins like the late Bishops and Arch-Bishops for dignitie and Power and these continued until about six hundred years after Christ where is now your Succession Pr. But yet there were manie faithful Christians both Pastors and others in the worst times and I could tell you of manie who suffered Martyrdome for Christ's cause in this Nation and if we cannot prove Succession it is rather for want of the light of Historie then for that there were no such Churches or Pastors Nevertheless from the time of the abolishing of the Heathens Hierarchie and Idolatrie which was done by King Ethelbert above a thousand years since we have a verie fair Succession Ph. This indeed manie of you boast of but it makes little for your purpose To omit to speak of the miserie brought upon this Land and the decay of the true Religion by meanes of the incursions or rather Conquests of the Saxons and Danes after Ethelberts time It is certain and you cannot denie it that all your successions both of Ministerie and Parish-Churches came from your Mother the Church or rather the Whore of Rome who had all at her devotion until King Henrie the eight drove out the Pope and kept Poperie Cath. Divine An. Caudreys Case P. 108. 109. Bed l. 1. Hist. Angl. ca. 22. 27. Pr. Well its true that for about five hundred years untill the Reformation began the Bishop of Rome usurped authoritie over the Church of England but yet all did not submit alike some faithfull men escaped both Ministers and people as John Wickliff and his followers persecuted by the name of Lollards who grew in great number even in our Countrie about two hundred years before the Reformation From which time of Reformation you cannot denie but that my Parish in particular hath been a true visible Church where there hath been a competent number of faithful people and a Minister who claimed nothing from Rome for the Popes Supremacie was abolished by King Henrie the eight as you now said Ph. If the rejecting of the Popes Supremacie make your Parish a true Church then likewise are the most of the Popish Congregations of France true Churches for they likewise have rejected or refused to receive the Popes Supremacie and have not received the Councel of Trent but have had a Pope a Cardinal of their own for manie years past And Cardinal Richelieu called a Prince of the Church was as great a Pope as William Laud late Prelate of Canterburie Marc. de vulson des Libert. de'l Eglise Gallicane lib. 3. pa 233. 234. 235. Pr. You cannot denie the Succession of faithful Ministers which if you admit you must also admit the Succession of Churches since the time of Reformation Ph. For your Succession its a mear dream If at any time there was no visible Parish-Churches then was there no Pastors of those Churches

part Politicks either concerning Monarchical Government Libertie of the people Municipal Lawes Obedience to Princes foundations of Government Levying of Warre disbanding of Forces exalting the Clergie payment of Tithes punishing of other men of contrarie judgements under the names of Sectaries and Schismaticks defence of Classes and Synods for politick ends under pretence of Order defence of their own Callings to the Ministerie and other such like tending to their honor and profit And in effect their preaching it self is but a preaching of themselvs when they tell us of the great honor due unto them and of their great labour that they travel as those that bring forth labour as the husbandman nay as under Rowers in Turkish Gallies from whence one said the Metaphor is taken although there was no Turkish Gallies within the space of 620 years after that was written And of their honorable maintenance which they plead for All which are but meer Policies and oftentimes with these things they mingle divinitie as Thomas Aquinas doth Philosophie with his Schoole divinitie And upon the whole matter Preaching is made but a trade to get money and to live by and the Conversion of souls comes in but as a subordinate end to their other advantages Pr. I wonder how you dare thus vilifie the Ministers of the Gospel they take no more honour to themselvs then the holy Prophets Apostles and enen of God did assume and for their painful callings they say no more then Paul and others of the Apostles said And for their preaching its a matter of labour and alwaies founded upon some Text of Canonical Scripture Ph. What I have said is no way dishonorable to the holy Prophets Apostles Pen-men of the holy Scriptures to whom agree all those things properly which these Politicians falsly and arrogantly take to themselvs First for honour it stood in this that they were the Secretaries of almightie God and of the Lord Christ the unerring Scribes and Pen-men of the holy Ghost holy men of God and are all in heaven And for their labours I refer you to a Catalogue of them left recorded by the holy Apostle Paul 2 Corinth 6. 5. 11. 23. c. But above all their labours there mentioned behold the sufferings who as the Prophets did most of them laid down their lives for the Lord and his Christ and for that truth of God which they delivered 37 38. Hebr. 11. 36 Where are any of these men who dare say this honour belongs to them they have undergone these labours or have suffered thus for the Lord Jesus his Cause or truth All they can say is that they are Ministers of the Gospel I wish that were true from my verie soul if it be not but I doubt the most part of these men make merchandize of the Gospel and in managing thereof use as manie sleights and deceits of men as others do in secular Callings carrying all their busines aloft in a mysterie that they may be accounted Oracles and will have everie one bound to believe all they deliver how false frothie and erroneous soever because their Text is a part of the holy Canonical Scripture but a great part of their Sermon no kin unto it but composed to further their own honour and profit Pr. You talk of manie sleights and deceits which they use in their Ministerie I pray what are they Ph. I could tell you manie but I will only name two of these mens sleights besides what I have alreadie pointed at which tend much to their ease and profit and are invented of late Pr. What are those Ph. The first is this when they are young and have little or nothing to do They make them a common place book of the Bodie of Divinitie as young Lawyers make them a common place book of the Law And this they gather out of such writings as suit best with their genius or fancie the most fantastical who would be counted most learned collect it out of the Schoole men a sort of rotten Divines and Fathers especially Origen The superstitious out of School-men Postillers and other Friars the most discreet and sober out of the writings of modern Divines as Perkins Amesius Chemnisius Musculus Calvinus Vrsinus Vossius Beza Rivetus Weames Peter Martyr Piscator and such like The more ignorant sort make use of Boyce's his Postills or collect a companie of Sermons either as they hear them preached or as they think fit to cull them out of the great store of English Books which are in everie place to be had And this may be some two years work and that is time enough when this is done they are readie for a Church Living and without doubt as one of the sons of the Prophets have an especial calling to preach Then they come from the Universitie and bring with them the curse of Elie's house crouching to some or other to put them into the Priests Office that they may eat a morsel of bread have a Living to maintain them and keep from want or use their friend Symon Magus his wisdom to shew an apparition of Angels and by that means wrap for a thousand bodies and souls of men or more or less as their purse will speak Well the bargain is made the man is approved of rung into his Church and gives great hope that he will be a peaceable man and use the Parishioners well for their Tithes And so falls to preaching so soon as he hath had sufficient time to fit himself to satisfie the humours of his auditorie which is a main Policie at the first And to this purpose if he have not his Sermons alreadie written he takes a a Text sutable to his common place upon which he will preach and writes his Sermon in a Book verbatim Then when he comes up into the Pulpit instead of preaching he reads his Text and all his Sermon out of his paper Book which sometimes for the credit of his Cause is bound up like a Bible And this is the pains he takes and is as confident that he dischargeth his dutie as if he exercised all the gifts of the Spirit and this Sermon serves for twentie Texts being reduced to his common place This course the most learned and Orthodox amongst the rigid Presbyterials whom I know do take from day to day some making better Sermons then others but generally all are tacked with these diseases of idleness and hypocrisie in this respect The idlest and most unlearned reade over their tasks of Sermon having but a certain number as I have seen proved upon oath and then begin again And I once heard one that lately was a Minister in London charge another that he never studied but on Saturdaie night wrote out of a book half an houres matter and then reade it in the Pulpit on the Lords day and another that he thought not of his Sermon untill the bell ringed And yet all these men in my knowledg pass for constant preaching Ministers and neither