the Doctor could not understand it or rather would not as being a fine way of evasion it had been his wisest way to have done thus with all that he could not obâ—ect against which is materially against him as the rest P. 32. 1 Tim. 3.14 Dr. This place is neither rightly alledged nor applied rightly to the Apostles scope Resp The former part of the words were not truely Printed the latter which hath that which was intended are rightly obtained to themselves a good degree in the house of God which was to shew that any office in the house of God was of great honour and men should be content with any therein though the lowest P. 34. Heb. 14.17 Dr. The Apostle writes to all the Hebrews in the world Resp Mr Doctor how doth this appear I wil not take your word for it was Heb. 5.12 said to the Jewes of all the world or chap. 12.22 Dr. These had many leaders in several Congregations and he desires them respectively to be subject to them that is that each Congregation should submit to â—â—â— r â—wn Resp Mr Doctor Doth Paul write as John to the seven Churches or Peter to the dispersed in Galatia Capadocia c. that you dare affirm this you doe on these tearms and at last for your parochiall liberty or all were lost Doctor From hence you will infer because the word Leaders is in the plurall number that every congregation hath many leaders which is very weak Resp From whence shall I inferre but from the Scriptures James 5.14 and I provoke you to shew in all the Scripture where the whole Church Ministry are spoken of of any Church and are not set down in the plurall number and M. Dr. to say they should be in every Congregation is a conclusion of your own and none of mine I say in every Church as for the weaknesse of it I know it is not the weaker for your blowing on it But M. Doctor What think you of Acts 14.23 they ordained them Elders in every Church 1. these not Nationall Churches 2. Nor were they Elders ordained Doct. Then you say that these leaders are to be meant by the ministring officers and not ruling Elders by verse 7. but that verse doth speak of those that guide and rule _____ and no ruling Elders should be no others then such as are able to speak the word on occasion nor should those that speak the word be without a guiding and ruling authority for the leading is to be according to the word and by it which makes the Doctor and the Pastor to be the same Resp Mr Dr. the _____ are all here spoken of either ruling Elders or teaching Elders I speak according to your own distinstion but that they are teaching and not ruling Elders verse 7. They have spoken to you the word and for that conceit that the ruling Elder should be such 1. I require you to sâ—ew me the constitution of ruling Elders 2. The command or practice that any was to or did do such a thing if not Sir you doe but undervalue your selfe to write such things at all 3. You come with your old device and find away out of this text and every text to make the Doctor and Pastor â—nâ— but let me mind you if by divine institution they are two you wrong the truth and your self and the Church also to make them one and here spoke of as of diverse persons Sir I shall ingeniously confesse that of all the books I ever read of my little reading I never read any man that endeavoured to make Pastor and Teacher one as you have all along done and altogether opposite to the truth yea the Assembly propositions Adeo dat Eph. 4.11 the two last ordinary and perpetuall that is the Pastor and Doctor Wollebius Pastores Ecclesiis Doctores Scholis Praefecti Eph. 4.11 Arminius disp Theol. Corrol 59. mâ—diate vocati Pastores Doctores Episcopi Praesbyteri qui certis Ecclesiis sunt praefecti Calvini Just lib. 4. cap. 4. ex ordine Praesbyterorum partim eligebantur Pastores Doctores Bilson Vide Zanch praecep 4. cap. 19. and the Churches practice in New-England Pag. 35. People Ministers and ordinary ministry Doct. O these allusions and applications are no proofs of the point Resp which Dionysius they are as I have since the writing of my book read to good satisfaction and many more of the Antients though the Doctor saith it is nought P. 35. That the man of God may be perfect 2. Tim. 3.16 17. Doctor This perfection is the end and effect of the foregoing usefulnesse of the Scripture and from thence is to be inferred that by the Doctors and Pastors office rightly used the man of God will become perfect Resp M. Doctor Why do ye not adde the Evangelists offici you may as well for the Doctor nor Pastors office is not rightly used in your Presbytery but these rightly used with the Evangelist through the effect and usefulnesse of the Scripture make the man of God perfect Doctor And therefore none other distinct office in ordinary is requisite to infer because the word perfection is here used that therefore an Evangelists office is intimated as a meer fancy Resp 〈◊〉 Doctor 〈◊〉 Pastor is not mentioned yet they are allowed but there is no allowance for an Evangelist an ordinary Church-minister no less of God intended then the rest but is still cast off by Mr Doctor for and with the reproach of fancy notion whimsy P. 36. Evangelized Christian man Doctor What this Evangelized Christian man is distinct from him that is taught and governed I know not neither do I believe you can shew Resp M. Dr. As in Adam so in Christ there are differing statures you may being a rationall man understand the one by the other now as he differs in stature from children so should the administrations differ that are administred in the Church to him accordingly 2. That this Evangelized Christian should differ from one taught and governed by the Gospel is a conceite of your own and none of mine P. 26. 1. Doctrine is not for all but babes only 2. Exhortation for young men only Evangelical ministry for perfect men only Doctor Is not the teacher and the exhorter a Gospel minister this is a fancy indeed which hath no ground Resp Mr Dr. See Rom. 12.6 7. Prophesie is for the Prophet ministry for the Evangelist Teaching for the Teacher exhortation for the exhorter and is not the exhorter or teacher a minister in this place and is not this a fancy the Apostle speaks in this place or what saith the other then said before P. 36. 1 Cor. 4.1 Of that men are Ministers they are stewards onely the Dr. of doctrinall part the Pastor of the pastorall c. Doctor Is not the doctrinall of the Evangelicall part of ministry Resp The Gospel ministry is Evangelicall all but is divided into three parts by God in the Gospel one being not more Evangelicall then the other Doctor Why do you leave out the practicall which is the Pastorall charge Resp It s well you are so sensible as to misse one in my writing you doe not miss two in your Church one is enough you know not what to doe with any more but see Mr Dr. 2 Tim. 1.12 puts down Apostle the first of the Church ministry and Dr. of the last and under these comprehends the rest and will you not allow me this if not I will take it Dr. There is no more requisite but faith and obedience which two are wrought out by the doctorall and pastorall administrations what use is there of this Imaginary part of the Exangelist distinct from both Resp Mr Dr. Faith and obedience are ministred under Teacher Pastor Evangelist one as well as the other according to the capacity of those are taught each one by degrees perfecting Faith and Obedience in the Saints the Doctors Teachers faith and obedience to Saints as children the Pastor as young men the Evangelist as strong men and not as the Doctor dreams one teacheth faith onely the oâ—her obedience Thus the Dr. having done with my book I have done with him untill he please to rejoyn and begin again only this I commend to thee Reader that that which followeth in my Book did more particularly strike at presbytery which the Doctleft to some other to do or to some other time to do or afraid it may be it would trouble his mind to study it or what ever it was he thought he had done enougâ— in this for once and so have I at this time Vale. If thou hast any knowledge of thâ— truth of the Gospel hereby at all FINIS
Dr DVRIE'S DEFENCE OF THE PRESENT MINISTRY Being compared with the Gospel and Gospel Ministry turnes into smoke and vanisheth As is made to appear in the ensuing Treatise By a Witnesse of the Gospel JOHN BRAINE Gal. 2.14 When I saw they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel I said to Peter before them all c. Printed in the Year 1649. To the Honourable the Committee of the County of South-Hampton The Learned Assembly at Westminster and the Godly and wel-affected of the County aforesaid TO you first of the Assembly I commend these things because you are they to whom the Supreme Authority of the Nation hath committed the care and judgement of these and the like differences that you may judge between us and make publike if you please your dissent from what is not of Gospel proof on either part To you the Honourable Committee aforesaid I humbly present these also that you hereby may see that by this or by the other cries of men of diffeâ—â— judgements Is â—â—â—â—â—e 〈◊〉 â—o be spoyled or wounded by you spoyled of that by your word and hand-writing you have for my Ministeriall labours promised me it being the life of me and my great family or wounded in my name who have lived though in weaknesse according to the testimonies of Christ and give me leave to mind you that of God That the labourer is worthy of his hire To you my faithfull and beloved friends of the Soake the City of Winton and County aforesaid I leave this as my loving remembrance to you advising you to beware of the secret practises of men against the Gospel as of works of darknesse and deep dishonesty in them that do them from whome and from which things keep your selves And 〈◊〉 Mr Doctor Durie I challenge a breach of promise who near twelve moneths since by letter promised me your notes on my booke and you contrary thereunto send my book and your bitter notes on it to my adversaries what hand you had in the private communicating of them I know not but leave to God Sir in obedience to Christ onely I have forborne to returne you railing for railing nor would I have you for this thinke I have forgot any good I have received from you but acknowledge the least thaâ—â—ulnâ—sse Sir I have not wronged you a word as I know in trâ—â—scribing your noâ—es they shall be compared with the Originall at your command bâ— any indifferent man Sir all that I have done herein is for the Gospel my dearesâ— friend for whome I desire to forsake all and althings and yet rest Gladly yours to serve you and al the forementioned according to the Gospel service of God John Braine To the Reader Reader THese Notes of Dr Duries I found written on the margent of a Booke properly mine owne being Intituled The smoke of the Temple cleared by the light of the Scripture lying one Shop-keepers Table where I live which I taking away with me was after sent for to make appearance before two Justices of the County aforesaid who were desired to grant a Warrant to apprehend me Fellon-like therefore but honestly refused it who after on my appearance because I would not surrender the said book chosing rather to obey the Law passively in that point then actively I was and now stand ingaged to make appearance at the next Quarter-Sessions to make Answer before the Bench for thus illegally seizing on my owne proper goods being a book sent Mr Doctor upon his sending to one Mr Ellis for him to call on me to send him one of my Books as the said Mr Ellis told me and not give him one nor was it by me given now that this onely câ—uâ—â— aforesaid must he taken in the businesse I thinke cannot but seem strange to all that read it These Notes made in answer to the Doctor by me were of two dayes making which will plead for their imperfection for thy better understanding the Treatise the letter P. is put for what page of the Book called The smoake of the Temple c. the Doctor drew his observation from and the Scripture added to it shews the ground the Doctor drew his assertions from which I doubt not but will clear many things in Scripture hid formerly to the world and prove profitable to all that read them by beeing compared things with things But to come to the Doctors observations themselves he passeth by the three first pages as having nothing to object and begins with page 4. striving if he had strength enough to remove the Evangelist from his owne into anothers place and so I leave him to his lift and triall of his strength who may as soone by help of a leaver role the round world out of his place as the Evangelist out of his and sooner too so unable is man found to be when he strives against Truth Luke 16.29 compared with Eph. 2.20 P. 4. Doctor WHat is here said of the Apostles is appliable unto Evangelists Resp 1. This is petitio principii or a begging the thing in question Mr Doctor You would have it so 2. The Scriptures were given by Divine inspiration to the Apostles and Prophets but not the ordinary Evangelists 3. Nor are the Evangelists to be proved as the Apostles are to be in any extraordinary way in the Church God in 2 Ephes 20. saith the Apostles and Prophets are of the Foundation but not Evangelists Dr. I say those Prophets who were before Christs time are properly to be understood Eph. 2.20 because they were the foundation upon which the Church was built as appears by Acts 26.22 2 Pet. 1.19 yet I hold that the Prophets which are named Eph. 4.11 are distinct from those Antient ones these are not the foundation of the Christian Church but these were the Apostolicall office 〈◊〉 doth ementer 〈◊〉 comprehend these but not these for these were before the Apostles nor are the Prophets named Eph. 4.11 qua distinct from the Apostles but if at all they are to be â—united the foundation it is onely as in and under the Apostolical office Then besides by the foundation of the Apostles and the Prophets is only meant the doctrine Apostolical and Prophetical whereof Christ is the substance that is the one corner stone and is it not so also in respect of the Evangelists Resp 1. For Answer to this confused masse take my owne words in my Book by Prophets I understand not only those wrot before Christs time but those wrot since also 2. Whereas he saith The Antient ones are not the foundation of the Christian Church It is clear the Prophets before Christ are in the same way a foundation to the now Church as the Prophets that were since 1 Peter 1.12 Not to themselves but to us saith the Apostle speaking to those under the Gospel administrations they did minister these things in a Church administration only they were not in this time 3. He saith The Prophets are not spoken
Scripture as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act 20.17 he called for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thus that 1 Cor 12.28 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is that under these words set down in the plurall number the whole ordinary Church ministry are comprehended of Ephesus or Corinth and consequently may be of any other Church Now Reader judge where this be nonsense where a man but of small understanding may not apprehend it though not a Doctor and where it agreeth with the whole scope of my Book or not and how little cause the Doctor hath to call it nonsense Dr. If the thing in question had been proved these objections might have been made but now they are a begging of the question Resp Sir when God hath thrown down Babel he will prove it unto you then and I shall no need beg the Question any more nor if you would yeild to the truth I need not come a begging to you for these things at all P. 11. The third Church Dr. Where was the second Church spoken of For hitherto he hath mentioned only Rome to prove the point which hath yeildâ—d no proof at all Resp 1. The first Church which I now must make the second was that of Ephesians pag 2. O Mr Doctor have you this twelve month been making observations on my Book and pass over the subject of my discourse with so little notice as to ask where the second was sure that text of Scripture doth dazle your eie-sight when ye come to look on it because ye cannot see a single ministry in it it was a wonder that Antichrist did not see this would destroy his way of administrations â—â—r him Dr. Nor is here from this 1 Cor. 12.4 any word of proof but that there are severall administrations to generall persâ—nâ— And what then is therfore an Evangelist a distinct ordinary perpetuall Officer in the Church O silly silly weaknesse Resp Sir take heed lest you come in the compass of those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Cor 2.17 which are corrupters of the Word Sir how can these gifts belong to generall persons which are to be in every constituted Church ordinarily for which God hath designed severall administraâ—â—oâ—s in the Word Sir your generall persons is a tearm â—o generall to be used in controversy when you more particularly express your self I will more particularly answer you if this do not suffice you P. 11. Mark 6.7 Luk 10.1 Christ sends his forth two by two Dr. This is a proof like all the rest from the circumstance of a fact to argue a perpetuall institution is very weak Christ sends his Disciples by two and two and the ministry of the Gospel is not a single work therfore beside Pastors and Teachers there must be Evangelists in ordinary and perpetually in office What a senslesse consequence is this Resp This act of Christ was brought only to prove against a single ministry as now used the Church being not yet fully constituted 2. Whereas you make a great cry of nothing with a O Yes this is proof like all the rest from the circumstance of a fact Sir what if you had no more to convince you of your single ministry is not this enough was not here the sending of the Apostles and seventy to teach according to which pattern should not you walk by if you would walk in the truth had Moses more then the pattern to do all his Tabernacle work by Sir was this only done in one two or were not all the eighty two so sent forth and so commemorated by the Evangelists sure if the thing were so slight as you make it there would not have been that care to set it down there was And as these now so after they alwaies did in the Historie of the Acts go two or three together from this their former Commission Sir if men would believe you it were nothing for you to make nothing of overcoming the truth with branding it with senslesse consequence drawn by your self out of that was never intended by me and so if there be any senslesnesse in the consequence it is your own and none of mine P. 12. I shewed why Christ sent the Disciples and seventy by two and two and not by three because none were to officiate the Evangelists office while Christ was living and in this he was 〈◊〉 And whereas I said I remember not that the Apostles are said to Evangelize during Christ's being on earth Mr Doctor in his Scholia saith This assertion is false the twelve did Evangelize while Christ was alive the text saith it expresly Luk 9.6 Resp 1. I did not assert the thing but said as I did remember it is not said they did not I hastily writing did not examine it 2. That they did Evangelize as the Church Evangelists did in constituted Churches after Christ's resurrection I say that the assertion if Mr Doctor will have it so is true and the contrary false P. 12. The time of gathering Churches was not yet come c. Dr. Those that became Disciples to Christ to what were they gathered why were not they a Church that were united to him by faith as his members Resp Mr Doctor may satisfie himself concerning these Questions without my Answer I wonder he useth a why and what about it 1. Were there not many a one with him by faith that were not in publique Church Fellowship or in Church Ordinances with him as Lot Job and others before not circumcised many in the Antichristian church now are of Christ's invisible church Rev. 18.4 and no man will say these were in a visible church socieâ—y of Christ why were they called out else Nicodemus and others 2. The Holy Ghost will give another answer Act 1.4 they must tarry at Jerusalem for the Holy Ghost before they constituted churches yea in Judea and Jerusalem vers 4. and Eph 4.8 10 11. will shew you Christ went to Heaven before he gave thâ— gifts of church ministry to the church to be ministred unto in a church way as they after were to be administred Dr. Christ declares that M ses ministry was at an end with John the Baptists time Math 11.12 13. Luk 16.16 Resp 1. Neither of these Scriptures say that it was at an end but that it was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 untill John 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. from thenceforth the Kâ—ngdom of Heaven is preached Note untill John there was none else but Moses ministry and that it was not utterly abolished in John's time or by John Math 23.1 2. Jesus said to the Disciples and to the Multitude The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses Chair Whatsoever therfore they say unto you do ye c. This was in the last year of Christs ministry and after John the Baptists death and yet it is not abolished utterly if it were dead it was not buried 2. That churches were not constituted see the Historie Act 6. Deacons are set up in the church after 1 Cor 6.1 the
that they are so ordinary as to be any where but in a true visible Constituted Church only which hath or ought to have the Evangelist also in ordinary As to the Question I Answer there hath not been this 1240 year a visible Church in which rightly have been the true Church ministry and right Church constitution though there hath been an invisible Church through all the time in the world 1 Cor. 12.28 God hath placâ—d in the Church these but not out of the Church Dr. The warrant we have is a lawful call to the ministry the Apostle James doth forbid a masterly elusorious way of teaching as is clear by the whole sequel of his discourse Resp Sir The smoke of the Temple offends your eyes yet ye cannot see clearly your Church is no true Church nor that it is as you found the Antichrist of Rome leave it and is no better for its constitution then Rome's Church is Now such as your Church is your call is and such your ministry It is true Indeed James forbids a masterly Teaching and such is yours Sir for you Teach in the Church so by your single Ministry as you have no example in the Scripture for it As for James his Church Church ministry there spoke of was the same with yours not a company of Saints but adulteresses and adulterers Jam. 4.4 persecutors and blasphemers James 2.6 7. their tongues set one fire of hel ful of cursing and bitterness Chap. 3.6 9 and no where called a Church in his Epistle Sir it seemes the more I rub your eyes the worse the smoke troubles youâ— John's first Epistle was written to another manner of Society Dr. It is true Paul did all because every officer of a superiour degree hath authority to do the actions of the inferiour but where are we forbidden to teach must not a minister be chosen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Tim. 3.12 Resp 1. He did them all until the Church was constituted where he was but when he had others to Teach and labour with him he took not their worke out of their hands 1 Cor. 1.14 thus Peter Acts 10.48 2. That ye are forbidden to Teach without a lawfull call that is Anticristian 〈…〉 yeâ— you are forbid to Teach as you doe 2 Cor. 10.13 we that is Paul Silvanus Timothy 2 Cor. 1.19 in the name of the full Church ministry Paul saith we wil not boast of things without our measure 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mr Doctor pray observe in one Church every minister hath a measure allowed him to Teach by which is laid out as by a rule of which in ministry every man is not to take what he wil as you do but God hath parted to each ministry his doctrine in the Church yea to the Apostles when they taught as ordinary Teachers and to those that taught with them to which Paul alludes 1 Thes 2.4 as we were allowed of God there is a Gospel allowance to Teachers what they should Teach and yet Bishops chosen by teaching that doctrine he was to be called to teach in the Church and not by others P. 10. Dr. Here is no mention of an Evangelist at all how then is it proved hence that he is a perpetual and assistant minister in the Church and if as he saith The Apostle doth speak here of publique Church Ministry and doth not name an Evangelist in it then the argument is strong against him that an Evangelist is not an ordinary publique minister Resp Mr Doctor seems profoundly to argue in this place against nothing pray consider it 1. That in this Scripture Rom. 12.6 7 8. is not mentioned the name of Prophet Pastor or Teacher which he cannot deny but yet are implyed here but because the Evangelist is not set down therfore he hath no place at all though the other may have having the Doctor 's leave 2. The Prophet in prophesy which was before him is implyed and the Pastour in his work of exhortation that comes after him and the Doctor in teaching is implyed And there is Ministry for one in the Evangelist's place but he must not be there unlesse he be set down an Evangelist though all teaching and his emmenter may be called Ministry Sir here cannot be understood any other Church-Teacher whatever nor your Church-Deacon or supposed Elder these follow in vers 8. in giving and ruling Sir I pray take heed of your taking too much liberty in making the Scripture speak against themselves if you forbear that I am sure they will not speak for you at all here Dr. This is a silly and irregular thought for how can a Church be constituted before God give gifts Shall we make Evangelists before God makes them All Pastors and Teachers are in a generall sent Evangelists that is publishers of the Gospel but not in a peculiar sent as he would have the Evangelist to be Resp Reader the cause of the Doctor breaking out into this silly cry is for that in my Book pag. 10. is written whereas the Apostle saith there be divers gifts from this Rom. 12. I think if ever a Church were rightly constituted greater gifts would be bestowed on men then since the Apostles 1. The Doctor understands not that God hath distinguished the Church gift from the Heavenly gift the Church gifts are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which are given to men by the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to the divine gift God had given them to minister the Church gift by which is the severall cals of the Church ministry Evangelists Pastors Teachers and thus indeed the Church is not to make before God hath made them but after 2. For what cause the Doctor troubles himself about Pastors and Teachers being Evangelists having before written of it and so few unworthy observations of a Doctor and up with it so often shews he wanted matter to object and that the man is mightily troubled about the Evangelist in his mind Dr. This Paragraph is to me a piece of nonsense for I knew not what he would say in it or how it is coherent with this former discourse Resp If the Doctor be silly as he makes himself I wonder he would take upon him in so unworthy a way to send down his notions in so secret a way to disgrace me and my writings privately amongst the ignorant multitude it had been more honour having been provoked to the presse or print to have published some worthy work in defence of their Presbyterian Government set out in the Propositions which I printed against or against that form of Church Government I added to it or prove their Government by the practice of the Primitive Church and disprove that in my Treatise of the resurrection of faln Churches and not in seeking to correct truth for errour in a Book make ten errours when he proves none but the not understood nonsense he talks of is in this The Church ministry is set out oft times by one word in