say I wish there were in the Land such Zeal as to abominate the Name of Jesuit But I am of the Mind that W. P. himself will say That there is too little of that Spirit in the Land But are not you a Catholick Russel I have Two Reasons to offer why I say so The People desired that the Stranger might speak to clear himself Strang. I do not say I am no Catholick but I say I am no Roman-Catholick that is to say I am not of the Church of Rome J. Ives VVhat are ye then Are ye a Hobist Strang. ' I never read his Books Bapt. Do any of you know him Answ I have known him to be a Trader in London this Fourteen Years Strang. ' Capt. Bromel knows me And others knew him to the Satisfaction of the Meeting W. P. Now where is he that is behind with his Two Reasons to give some Ground for his Suggestion There were none produced Stranger I have heard the Discourse hitherto between you I do understand here is a great deal of means used for to evade the Matter intended by the Meeting and let me tell you it will not only be a Means to make me but more Quakers to see the Weakness of your Carriage You have charged them with several Things they charge you with Forgery therein and they meet here to prove that it is so and if you thus do evade the Matter they shall stand innocent in the sight of Honest Men I desire these People call'd Quakers may have Liberty to read their Charge against T. H. they gave you Liberty to charge them shall not they have the same Interrupted by T. Plant who said thus T. Plant Mr. Penn pray let us all sit down and hear this Man preach us a Sermon The People were displeased and hooted at T. P. W. Penn Must he not clear himself J. Ives VVe have spent almost an Hours Time in this Digression W. Penn How can we expect Satifaction from you as to T. H. if you will not give it us for the Slander your Brother hath endeavour'd to insinuate against an unconcerned Person J. Ives As to this Suggestion against this Person you may remember in an other Matter it was by you urged that is should be left as being unimportant to the Case in Hand but now by your insisting upon the Matter relaring to this Gentleman so much besides the Business you manifest your Minds rather to be to prolong the Time and stave it off therefore I say Come will you hear your selves proved No Christians W. Penn It is to the Peoples Edification to come to enquire whether or not T. H. is a Forger in the Matter of his Dialogues and that is the Matter ye ought to go upon if after that you question the Truth of our Christianity we freely offer to meet you upon that Occasion either private or publick Stranger I am concerned Christianity is so much abused by you Baptists that pretend so much to Christianity T. H. hath writ Books against them they charge his Books with Forgery you should go on to hear whether or no it can be proved Baptist VVhat a Coxcomb is that Here the People cry'd out Take notice of that Man 1 Stranger We have been here a great while and I suppose the Auditory cannot make much to their Content out of what hath past among you I offer again that you will determine who is Plantiff and who Defendent who Opponent and who Respondent â—f you cannot come to this it is as good to depart J. Ives VVe are willing here to prove the Quakers to be No Christians The People make a Noise and are discontented T. Plant You call'd upon us at our Meeting to call upon the People for Silence why do not you do the same here and call for Silence W. Penn Do not reflect we have called upon them and urge them to be silent nor do we believe it is our Friends that make the Disturbance T. Plant If we say nothing with Respect to that Gentleman we shall be clamoured about the Town for it W. Penn He is a Friend of yours as well as ours we are not at all acquainted with him T. Plant Sir I do not think you are a Jesuite or Romanist nor do I approve of what was said I would not have said so of any Man except I knew it But this I have to say to that Gentleman If he should turn Quaker upon this I should take him to be a very silly and weak one The People here manifested their great Dislike of T. Plant's making Apology T. Plant I mean if he should turn Quaker upon the Account of any VVeakness of ours it would manifest him weak in Christianity not those that are Quakers Stranger I did not say thus but it might be a Means to make me and others Quakers to see the Weakness of your Carriage that protent so much to Christianity I st Stranger I hope you will come to an End of all Particularities and I desire Mr. Ives and Mr. Plant that some Article may be agreed upon You say The Quakers are no Christians they decline not the Proof of it but they say It is not the first thing to come to but that the first thing is for them to prove T. H. a Forger that is the Charge W. Penn Shall we read the Charge T. Plant No No. W. Penn Shall T. H. read my Charge against T. Hicks Stranger It is most fit that it be read by an indifferent Person T. Plant Very well you shall W. Penn Shall the same be read that was read at Barbican People Yea yea The Stranger begun and was interrupted by J. I. G. Whitehead The Auditory may take notice that though J. Ives have undertaken F. Hick's Cause that he is unprepared for he said he did not read the Books till last night Now ought he not better to have considered the Matter before he had engaged to personate T. H. If they will not pursue the Charge we shall conclude they are afraid We do suppose the Way they go is not the Way they would be dealt with them that is to pick things out of our Books Now if they would prove us no Christians it must be by somewhat that is generally own'd by the Quakers and you know I offer in the same manner to prove Baptists no Christians That is thus Some Baptists have denied the Divinity of Christ Immortality of the Soul the general Love of God to all Men therefore in their Manner I might as well from thence prove the Baptists no Christians as they have done against us I say some Baptists have been of the Opinions aforesaid Now if the whole Baptists will be concluded by those Particulars then they do as they would be done by The Baptists are divided and some may have unadvisedly laid down Arguments against the Divinity of Christ Now if the Baptists will go from Particulars to Generals let them consider if they would be
at our Door and Tho. Plant knows how uncivilly we were treated and used at our Coming in contrary to what was promised us The Cause of our requiring a Publick Meeting when Tho. Plant mentioned Meeting was we ought to be as Publickly Righted as we had been Publickly Wronged to which he answer'd and T. H. with him that it was very Reasonable Now for them to give us Hopes of being as Publickly Righted as Wronged especially in Matters wherein the Reputation of our Profession and Religion as well as our Concernments as men in the Creation are so highly engaged and then so unfair by a Letter to Oppose themselves to a Publick Meeting was not worthily done But if Tho. Hicks will not meet us in Publick we will follow him into any Private Meeting that shall be equally proposed as to Time Place and Persons resolving by the Help of God to adhere to this Controversie wherein we are concerned for the Honour of God and Religion That all the Rubbish of Lyes and Slanders by him and his Abettors cast in the way of the Simple may be removed With this the Auditory amply manifested their Satisfaction J. Ives I offer this that there be such a Meeting agreed upon as is offered in our Proposals not that I would conclude you but you shall have Liberty to consult about it But if this be disallowed I shall now espouse Tho. Hicks 's first Article wherein he saith The Quakers are no Christians I will offer my Reasons to prove you are not and I could wish I were mistaken VV. Penn Tho. Hicks hath been charged by us to be A Forger Perverter Lyar Slanderer of and against our Faith VVritings and Persons This is implyed in that first Article and upon which we called to the Baptists for Justice the Business of this Meeting is to take Cognizance of that Matter and for you to endeavour to give us the Go by as to that black Charge against T.H. and to fall to other Matters of Controversie is not only a Deviation but to offer Violence to T.H. 's own Method of Procede and if T. Hicks will not appear publickly yet if J. I. or any of you will undertake to personate him we will first read the Charge and then go on to make it good for that is the Work of this Meeting and for Men to say they will do this and that But when they come to the Pinch pick here and there what chey please to insist upon this is not I must tell you for the Accused to do 't is my ' tPart to make good my Charge viz. That T. H. is a Forger c. Let the Charge be read Here W. P. and others pressed hard to have the Charge read in the hearing of the Auditory the People signifying a great Desire thereof but J. I. and his Brethren cryed out Read no Charge to which was joyned a loud Noise and Clamour from the Baptists that it could not be heard J. Ives VVhereas W. P. saith That if we will go on they will joyn Issue with us but considering what they lay to T.H. 's Charge in the VVritings of W. P. and G. W. if it can be proved the Truth of it is that T. H. is the Prodigy of the Age for Slanders and unworthy Dealings but let us make a little Tryal W. P. chargeth T. H. with Forgery and one Instance to prove it is taken out of W. P. 's Book called The sandy Foundation shaken concerning the Word Only which Word is certainly there and at this Rate I will make all the VVorld Forgers if they shall be so because I say so W. Penn If I. Ives will begin here with our Charge I will abide by it provided we may go through the whole Charge as publickly but if J. I. will assume a Priviledge to Chuse as he pleaseth how does this answer the Method of the Charge or his own Promise to begin you may observe how they twist to avoid our proving T. H. a Forger c. I say again the Matter of Fact is charged by us if J.I. will personate T.H. I am ready for him and here offer to prove him as such guilty of Forgery and the Dialogus to be a Fiction J. Ives I am deputed and as far as we two shall proceed he shall be concluded as if T. H. were here W.P. does ask if we will go on with the Articles as laid down we have them and will go on in the Name of T.H. and those Friends related to him and as far as we go on he and they shall be concluded by it but as to many other Articles that require Witnesses they must be left to an other Meeting for him to bring forth his own VVitnesses Whereas he saith That our Letter only mentions Matter of Fact not Controversie I say Matter of Fact may be Matter of Controversie If I charge a Man to be an Atheist or a Papist he saith it is a Scandal we come to prove now the Matter of Fact is Matter of Opinion and so becomes Matter of Controversie Now if T. H. saith The Quakers are No Christians he doth own it to be so not only he but I do here say as much which is the first Article in the Dialogue Here J.I. with great Levity in his Countenance thus saith J. Ives I am come here this Day to prove the Quakers to be no Christians which I hope to do by the Strength of God G. W. That is not the first Article in the Charge we charge him with Forgery we say 't is no real Dialogue it is framed by T. H. that is the Charge and this relateth to matter of Fact he saith it is a Dialogue we say it is made by T. H. wherein saith he is faithfully represented and pulished the most considerable Opinions and Principles of the People called Quakers collected out of their own Writings made extant for common Benefit Doth not this imply that this man is concerned to make it appear that his Dialogues are a real Discourse between one or more that are called Quakers and his so called Christian We say it is not real but a false Representation of our Principles and Practices and that they are words we never spake nor writ but are a meer Fiction This is the matter of Fact and here lies the stress he said It is a Dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker we are here to prove it a Forgery W. P. When a Charge is exibited it ought to be confest or denyed If T. Hicks confess himself a Forgers c. then let us proceed to matter of Doctrine if he denyes it I am here to prove him one Here the People cried That is fair and urged to have the Charge read J. Ives The Substance of what they have said is this That the first Accusation is for writing Dialogue wise W. P. No such matter We do not accuse him for writing Dialogue-wise but for writing Fictions calling them A Dialogue making Persons
to speak write what they never writ or said nor is consistent with their Principles J. Ives I shall shew you that this hath been the way of the Quakers Here is a Book of Solomon Eccles. G.W. Read the Title of the Book The Title was read W. Penn I will show you in this matter how unfair and impertinent J. Ives is He suggests as if we were against the way of Dialogue writting and here he brings you an Instance in a Book of S. E. nothing at all to the Purpose in hand for S. E. expresly sayes By way that is in the manner of a Dialogue Besides how doth this clear T. Hicks G.W. Let that Book alone at this time S.E. is not here he will answer for himself he is now remote from this place T. Plant Here is an other Book of a Quaker ' s between a Jesuit and a Quaker Can you prove that a real Dialogue G.K. It is a real Dialogue we can prove it W. Penn Do you rid your hands of Tho. Hicks if you can and if any such Actions can be found among us as his so will we Let us come to the Charge read it It was begun to be read but the Baptists as before raised a Noise in the Meeting that it could not be distinctly heard and so forc'd to give over reading J. Ives I take Notice then that to write Dialogue-wise is allowed on all Hands so it be writ simply and nothing falsly represented But say they T. H. hath used not only the Method but he brings in things not said by us nor sayable by us with consistency with our Principles But we have produced Two Books of their own writing Dialogue-wise wherein they do the same things therefore it seems the Quakers may have Liberty to do so but not others I shall concede with W. Penn and let it be referred to prove and now let us go on to the Matter with all my Heart 1st That T. H. hath Opposed the Christian to the Quaker G. VVhitehead He bringeth in an unequal Comparison as if the Quakers took a Liberty to do what they would not allow others to do and I will make it appear to be Scandalous c. Was interrupted by the Baptists with a Great Noise J. Ives Since the Meeting begun this is the greatest Impertinency I have heard G. Whitehead By the same Way that Thomas Hicks will go about to prove the Quakers No Christians I can prove the Baptists to be No Christians some of them have denyed the Divinity of Christ and Immortality of the Soul and Free Grace of God to all men now because some of them have so done and thence may be proved No Christians at this rate is this fair to charge this upon the whole of the Baptists to prove them no Christians W. Penn I will meet J. Ives T. Plant or any other about these Matters on a fit Occasion will you now proceed in the Matter of T. Hicks for which we are come together G.W. What we exhibit against T.H. you have in writing by it self comprised in several Articles But you endeavour still to wave that and to introduce other things pickt out of our Friends Books whereof we have had no notice that we could search into them for the Truth thereof though we gave you notice of the matter in hand concerning T. H. in Print and otherwise according to your own desire Now instead of maintaining T.H. you go to baffle us off with New Passages we know none that are publickly own'd by us that have writ any thing but what we can stand by yet it is possible there may be some Person that may have been counted a Quaker that may have writ what we cannot own but what is that to the Business in hand as to T. Hicks W. Penn Let us come to the matter I thus prove T.H. or J. Ives as personating T.H. a Forger Hear me T. Plant The first Charge consists of two parts Manner and Matter Form Things People cry Let us hear it T. Ellwood begins to read it Baptists No Charge We will have No Charge read raised a Noise that it could not be heard though the Generality were for it W.P. Thomas Plant and all ye that hear me I charge T. Hicks with Forging things in our Name which are not sayable by our own Principles I desire the Articles may be read and I shall proceed J.I. T. Hicks hath opposed you to Christians we are here ready to prove that he hath therein done well will you hear your selves proved no Christians The People houted at him W.P. Since J. Ives hath told us that he is here to personate T.H. we desire that our Charge may now be read which is as reasonable as if T. H. were personally here and I will prove him as unreasonable a Forger J. Ives You are mistaken I did not say that I would be answerable for every Article of T. Hicks Here the People houted at him W. Penn J. Ives doth not undertake it seems to defend T. H. in all things what if some of the Particulars that we have charg'd T. H. with be such as he will not undertake to discourse must we leap over them and insist only upon what J. Ives will please to discourse of Is this fair Is this to answer our Charge or do us Justice against T. Hicks J. Ives I appeal to the People to do me right whether I did not say so far as the Articles were a common Cause so far I would appear for him The People were silent W.P. Is your common Case Forgery c if it be we will proceed if not it answers not our Charge nor the reason of our being here J. Ives So far as I undertake to Discourse T. H. shall be concluded but if any thing be too abstruse we must refer it to another Meeting we stand here to justifie T. H. in that he saith you are no Christians we say you are none and we will prove it W. Penn I hope thou dost understand so well the Way and Method of Controversie that when a Man doth exhibit a Charge the Party is to deny or confess now we say that T. H. his Dialogue is a Fiction he that writes a Dialogue and writes a Fiction is a Forger T.H. hath so done I offer to prove it and that we met about J. Ives That which Mr Penn hath said is this which is very reasonable that a Charge exhibited should be owned or denied we do say as to the Matter of T. H's VVritings we do own it and are here to defend it If I say a Man is a dishonest Man I am bound to prove wherein and if I say you are no Christians I will prove it so G. Keith Jer. Ives faith we are agreed upon the first part of the Charge I deny it for T.H. saith it is A Dialogue and I say it s No Dialogue but a Fiction so that it being no True Dialogue it is an Abuse to
greatest of Miracles and most Excellent Argument that the Lord Jesus Christ bestowed upon the unbelieving Iews would be no Evidence in it self because not received by them The Consequence is the horrid Blasphemy of the Pharisees That he cast out Devils by Beelzebub the Prince of Devils This doth exclude all Martyrs from having a Sufficient Evidence because they could not convince their Persecutors of the Validity of that Evidence I do not doubt the poor Woman that said She could not dispute for Christ but she could burn for him had a sufficient Evidence and better then an Impostor that could have made a better verbal Defence I remember that I. Bradford that honest Martyr Book of Mart. 3 Vol. p. 298. gave this Answer to the Arch-Bishop of York We do believe and know the Scriptures as Christ's Sheep not because the Church saith They are the Scriptures but because they be so being thereof assured by the same Spirit which spake them This was all I hear he gave to the Bishop as an Evidence of his Faith concerning the Scriptures Did therefore I. Bradford believe them no more then an Impostor because an Impostor might say so Or was there no better Evidence to Protestants of him then that he was an Impostor Also B. Iewel one of the learnedst and most ancient Prelates of the Church of England in his Book against Harding pag. 532 534. asserts That without the special Help Prompting and Revelation of God's Holy Spirit the Scriptures are to the Reader be he never so wise or well learned as the Vision of a sealed Book So that 1st Inspiration was the Rule of their believing and understanding Scripture 2 dly The Evidence that they and other Christians gave of their Christianity besides good Words and Works was that internal Evidence of the Spirit which Gual Cradock affirms gives to know the Spirit or Fruits of it in other men To conclude If Articles of Faith according to Scripture the Inspiration of the Spirit of Truth fair Words and sober Living and Sufferings are no Evidence because imitable or pretended to by Impostors or that all such are Impostors who cannot evidence their Right to such Things not only Millions in Happiness are questioned as to their Sincerity by J. I. but the best among those he accounts Christians now alive must be concluded Impostors and for himself alas poor Man he will prove an IMPOSTOR with a Witness I. Crook It seems very unreasonable that he that hath Faith and is a true Believer should give an Outward Evidence of his Faith to him that hath no true Faith or else he must be No Christian seeing the Scripture faith and it is true That there is a white Stone and a New Name written in it which no Man knows but he that hath it And he that hath it in himself knows it certainly to be the True Evidence when he hears it from another for it answers as Face to Face in a Glass And as Iob saith There is an Ear that tryeth Words as the Palat tasteth Meat c. Much more was spoak by him to evidence the Truth of this Assertion to the Peoples great Contentment but cannot so particularly and exactly be remembred G. Whitehead I have been concerned in many Disputes and Controversies about Religion and with divers Sorts of People but never met with such unfair Dealing clamorous Work and hideous Noise in Disputes from any People as from these Men though we owe them no ill will the Lord open their and all your Understandings I desire that Seriousness Sobriety and the Fear of God may possess all your Hearts c. G. Keith Friends and People I desire you to take notice that whereas I said We had as great Evidence to show that we were Christians as any Baptists on Earth I spoak modestly I could have said more and now I do say more for there are two Outward Evidences of a Christian unto others one is Good Works another is to Suffer patiently and boldly for the Principles of the Christian Religion Now the Baptists dare not deny but our Works are as good as their own And as for our Sufferings in Times of Persecution they commended them far above their own then they could call us their WALL of Defence betwixt them and the Blows of Persecution and told us they prayed for us as divers here present can witness Note Reader if any object that Saying Not the Suffering but the Cause makes the Martyr I say the Maxim is true but they have not yet proved that our Cause is not good this they did undertake but have been shamefully foyl'd in their Pursuance of it as doth appear to such indifferent and impartial Auditors as were present both Times and may appear to all such impartial Men who read these Relations of the whole Matter in Print I. Crook added a few Words more to the People and concluded the Meeting with his Prayer