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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A47189	A true relation of a conference had betwixt G. Keith and T. Upsher, at Colchester the 6th of the fifth month, 1699 the truth of which is attested by three witnesses who took it from their mouths in short-hand and afterwards by joint consent writ it out at length : the question stated at the said conference was whether Thomas Upsher's preaching in the forenoon that faith in Christ, as he was born of the Virgin Mary, and dyed for our sins, &c. was absolutely necessary to salvation, ..., and in the afternoon his preaching that the light within ... is sufficient to salvation is a contradiction : and a brief account of the uncivil and illegal treatment used by some principal Quakers at Colchester and Bristol toward G Keith ... : and a postscript, containing some notes and observations on the assertions of T. Upsher and his brethren, detecting their self-contradictions : and a certificate from Parson Shelton of Colchester, to the truth of the case in debate ... and to the truth of the conference / by George Keith.	Keith, George, 1639?-1716.	1699 (1699)	Wing K222; ESTC R14758	20,930	32

the Door to keep him out by Violence he did very softly expostulate with them and so did some other of his Friends that came from London to countenance him and to be Witnesses of their treatment towards him that it was contrary to their former Profession to use any carnal Resistance let them not henceforth say their Weapons are not carnal for he saw no other Weapons they had to fight with him but their Arms Shoulders and Breasts wherewith they opposed him as he essayed to come in He also and his Friends told them They would have formerly re●koned it Persecution and did so when some of their Preachers came in to oppose the Ministers both of the Church of England and Presbyterians in their publick Meeting-places and met with some resistance on that account But that whi●● the more aggravates the matter against them is that G. Keith told them that stood a Guard to keep him out he came ●ith 〈◊〉 Intention not to speak at that time in their Meeting but only to hear having a real desire to hear how their Ministers did Preach he being inform'd that they did preach better Doctrine than formerly some of them replied Our Ministers are not chang'd in their Doctrine Charles ●ones Father-in law to Will. Penn Junior said concerning G. Keith He is a false Fellow we will not trust him To whom G. Keith modestly replied That is not enough to call me so but he ought to prove it I● I said G. Keith should call thee Thief or Adulterer thou wouldst p●t me to prove it Some of them that were the Guard at the Door asked G. Keith What he was he said He was a Christian They asked again Was he a Quaker he replied He was never proud of the Name Quaker that Name being given to that People is a Na●● of Reproach which now they seem to 〈…〉 and asked them What 〈…〉 of a Friend of Truth which he had 〈…〉 to his Question One 〈…〉 who 〈◊〉 by G. Keith at the Door If he was 〈…〉 which they took for some great 〈…〉 his Friend G. Keith bid them ask him If he did not own himself a Friend of Truth he said Yea he was a Friend of Truth but the Name Quaker he disowned as well as the Errors that were among them G. Keith did further Expostulate with them saying If the Power of God be among you as ye say it is what know ye if ye let me come in but that Power may reach me and bring me out of what ye call my Apostacy and join me again to you Some of them replied Thou dost not believe it thy self G. Keith answered Though I do not believe it yet that Power might make me believe it How many have come into a Christian Assembly Unbelievers and have gone forth Believers am I past all possibility of Conversion But as uncivil as the Quakers his old Friends at Bristol were to him the People called Baptists were as civil who freely at his request granted him liberty at their publick Meeting-place near to the Quaker's Meeting-place and about as capacious to have a Meeting that Day the Meeting-place being called Andrew Gifford's Meeting-place who freely consented and his Son and Friends also that he should have the use of it The Meeting began about the 6th Hour in the Afternoon which was very full of People both of the Church of England and other Dissenters who generally shewed their great satisfaction with what they heard him speak at the said Meeting In the close of the said Meeting he did intimate to the People his purpose of having another Meeting the next Day to begin at the same time in order to detect the great and vile Errors of the most approved Authors among the Quakers particularly of G. W. and W. P. and in order to the clearer detecting them to read large and full Quotations out of their Books as accordingly he did and did intimate his purpose to write to W. P. and other noted Ministers of the People called Quakers at Bristol to desire them to come and if they did think they were able to defend their Cause they should be freely allowed and have a fair Hearing The next Morning being the 24th of that Instant he writ to them to that effect they sent no direct Answer to him but writ a severe Letter to Andrew Gifford and his Son and another Baptist Teacher called Found greatly blaming them for letting him have the use of the House comparing what was to be done there to a Stage-play and G. Keith to be the Actor And among other frivolous and empty Reasons they give why they will not meet him one was that it was offensive to Authority and yet in the same Letter they pro●●er to meet with those Baptists if they will Imbark on his Bottom as if to meet with G. Keith were offensive to Authority but to meet with the Baptists were not whereas neither is offensive to them if discretely managed and if any behave themselves indiscretely they are justly obnoxious to Censure At the time appointed a great Meeting of People assembled both towns-Towns-people and others it being at the beginning of the Fair time where he laid open the Errors particularly of G. Whithead W. Penn and Edw. Burroughs in many Quotations which he did publickly read out of their Books and which another did read the second time standing on a Table in the Peoples audience that the People might be satisfied that the Quotations were all truly read the Quotations were the same as are noted in a late printed Sheet called An Account from Colchester of the Quakers Errors against the very Foundation of the Christian Religion Signed by Nine credible Persons of Colchester two of which are Ministers of the Church of England and two others Non conformist Ministers and some other Quotations were read out of their Books that are mentioned in G. Keith his said Narrative to which as to divers other his Books against his Adversaries they have made no Reply though they most falsly alledge they have replied to all he hath published in Print against them whereas there are at least Six of his late Books in Print to which they have made not one Line of Reply as his 2d and 3d Narratives his Book answering their Arguments against Baptism and the Supper the Deism of W. Penn and his Brethren in answer to his Discourse of the general Rule of Faith and Practice and his late Book called Some of the many Fallacies of W. Penn c. In his Paper called Gospel Truths c. and his larger and shorter Chatechisms all which do plainly detect and refute their vile and gross Errors and Heresies prejudic●● and destructive to Christianity And here I give the Reader to understand how as I was civilly treated and respected by sober People both of the Church of England 〈…〉 at Colchester and at Bristol so I found the ●●ke 〈…〉 Respect generally in all other places where I travelled 〈…〉 Summer and

use it John Raller I think he did Rob. Hannay He did use it G. K. 5 Eph. 13. For all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light for whatsoever doth make manifest is light 2 Cor. 12. 9. My grace is sufficient for thee There is the sufficiency and by Grace he means Light 20 Acts 32. Now brethren I commend you to God and the word of his grace which is able to build you up and to give you an inheritance among them that are sanctified T. U. O! George thou art wrong I did not make use of that Scripture on the first Day it was on the fourth Day G. K. Then thou contradicts thy self two or three Days after it 's no great difference but thou didst use it in part on the first Day T. U. To the best of my remembrance on the first Day I committed them to the Lord Jesus Christ and to the word of his Grace and so drew towards a Conclusion after that manner G. K. Those in the Revelations who have washed their Robes and made them white in the Blood of the Lamb. This Blood to the best of my understanding he meant to be the Light I think he did expound it so T. U. I did use those words but I deny I meant the Light G. K. If I can't prove it all the damage will be that I was mistaken In the Afternoon he brings 1 John 4. 9. In him was life c. And that Scripture My grace is sufficient for thee These we shall go through with That I shall insist on that Tho. brings these Scriptures to prove that every Man that cometh into the World is so lighted and so taught that if he obey the teachings and discoveries of that inward Principle it is sufficient for Salvation or he shall be saved All these Scriptures he brought to prove it And I will give thee for a covenant to the people a light to lighten the Gentiles that thou mayest be my salvation to the ends of the earth Thus he paraphrased upon them and to the best of my understanding said That whosoever was obedient to the dictates and discoveries of this Light the Grace of God or inward appearance of Light it shall be his Salvation This he said in the Afternoon which contradicts what he said in the Forenoon Now the Contradiction lies here whereas Tho. in the Forenoon said it was his belief and the drift and tendency of all the Friends and their Books and Writings and that his Faith and Friends did not differ in this point That Faith in Christ as he was born of the Virgin without us suffered without us arose and ascended without us and as he is spiritually revealed in us is necessary for Salvation I say he said That he and his Friends did not differ in this but that it was the drift of all their Friends though they did not express it as he did T. U. I did not mention the Faith of the Friends I did not mention their Books as I remember but I said It was necessary to Salvation to believe these things and that it was the drift and tendency of my Testimony G. K. Call Rob. Hannay Who prov'd he was speaking before of some that falsly charg'd Friends about this doctrine but says he they misrepresent us and falsly accuse us it hath been and is the drift and tendency of all our Friends to preach this Doctrine Tho. Cook I call thee for a Witness Whether Tho. Vpsher said so or not He answered Yea. One ask'd Tho. Cook What Vpsher said He answer'd That Tho. Vpsher said it was the drift and tendency of our Friends to Preach such Doctrine Tho. Lawrence offers himself a Witness he saith That Tho. Vpsher mentioning some opposing the Quakers that charg'd them that they not did hold Faith in Christ outwardly as necessary to Salvation saith he I do verily believe and it is my Faith and I have Faith in Christ Jesus as he suffered without the Gates of Jerusalem and it is the drift and tendency of our Declarations which we Preach to the People T. U. I did say Friends but not a word of Books and Writings G. K. Now two ways I prove that he contradicts himself If I prove that his Faith differs from the Faith of some or most of his Friends as Will. Penn Geo. Whitehead and the most eminent is not here a Contradiction to himself Is not their Faith his Faith T. U. George this is from the matter we are not come here to meddle or dispute what others hold but thou art to show I contradicted in the Afternoon what I said in the Forenoon G. K. It is my Sense that whereas he said in the Forenoon that his and his Friends Faith was one and the same if he differs from his Friends he differs from himself and then I say what he said in the Afternoon contradicts both himself and his Friends T. U. I said it is the drift and tendency of our Friends Tho. Auger said He meant the Friends there present What have we to do with W. Penn and G. Whitehead they are not here G. K. If any say What have we to do with our Friends W. Penn and G. Whitehead that are not here Then I say thou shouldst have been more wary than to have mention'd such a thing in an Auditory If I have any understanding in what he said I never heard a greater Contradiction in my life The places he brought especially 49. Isa 6. 2. Titus 11. 26 Acts 18. He did not barely quote these places but paraphrased on them and applyed them to Christ's inward appearance call it what you will Light or Grace as it is in every Man for he numbers these places with John 1. 4 and 9th Verses this is a Contradiction these places he brings to prove the Light in every Man 2 Cor. 12. 9. My grace is sufficient for thee It hath no reference to that inward appearance or Principle of Christ in the Heathens that the Gospel is not Preached to This in Isa I will give thee for a covenant to the people for a light to lighten the Gentiles that thou mayest be my salvation to the ends of the earth This hath no reference to the Light of the Gentile World that hath not the Gospel Preached I say it is a Prophecy which was not then fulfilled to the Gentile World nor is not now fulfill'd to the Heathen Gentiles but it is fulfill'd to us Christian Gentils 2 Titus 11. The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men teaching them c. I say this Text hath no relation to the common discovery or inlightening that the Gentile World hath that never had the Gospel preached T. U. This is what I spoke in the Afternoon compare it with what I said in the Forenoon and shew the Contradiction G. K. There is no illumination or discovery in the Heathen World that hath not the Gospel outwardly preached that gives them and teacheth

this as at Bedford Huntington 〈…〉 bridge and divers other places 〈…〉 this present Summer having travelled through the same places again and had considerable Meetings at them all either in Licensed Houses or such as by the favour of the Magistrates of the place were allowed and in divers other places where I had not had Meetings before as at Cogshel in Essex at Chippenham in Wilishire at the Devises at Caln at Malebury at Lambourn Woodlands at Wantage at Oxford at Reading in all which places where I had Meetings many of which were very considerable for number of sober discreet and well affected People I met with great Civility Kindness and Respect for my Testimony to the great Truths of the Gospel and against the great and vile Errors that abound among the People called Quakers which their Leaders have drawn them into though in divers places above mentioned few of the People called Quakers came to hear me and in some of them not one so far as I could hear I generally sent to them to come and shew before the People what they had against me but they generally fled before me and would not so much as appear to reason the Case with me One at Caln in Wiltshire in a great Meeting which was in a large Barn on a First Day the last of the Month called July called John Savage a Quaker while I was speaking said I spoke by the Spirit of the Devil because I was proving That the Light that is common to all Mankind and is in Heathens was not the Gospel that Paul preached but another I desired him not to interrupt me but let me alone till I had done and then I would answer to what he would object but he said nothing to me after I had done At Huntington and Ives also I met with some Interruption but none of them would come to any fair Debate with me some of their Ministry at Ives calling me Judas and Demas but when I put them to prove it and offered to shew that Character did not belong to me but to some of them they would not reason the case with me One of the chief Men among the Quakers in that Town saying That place was for Preaching but not for Dispute and as by his means I had got liberty to speak there for which I thanked him but he would not suffer me to dispute I did expostulate the case with him Why he would be less fair than the Jews who not only suffered Paul to Preach but to Dispute in their Synagogues But the greatest openn●e● 〈◊〉 reception among any of my former Friends called Quakers I found was in divers Country places in Huntingtonshire and thereabouts who met in divers places on purpose to hear me and appointed several Meetings for me at several places both this and the former Summer whither they came to hear me and declared their satisfaction with my Testimony and my opposition to the great Errors among the Quakers and they have declared that it is their Sense That there is great need of a Reformation in Doctrine among the said People and that the great Errors contained in the Books of their great Authors ought to be disowned and retracted otherwise a separation will necessarily follow whereof Margaret Everard a Speaker among them has given a plain and Christian acknowledgment in her printed Epistle to them and particularly to the Ministers among them A POSTSCRIPT TO THE Impartial READERS Containing some Notes and Observations on the Assertions of T. Upsher and his Brethren discovering their Self-Contradictions THE Impartial Readers are desired to compare the several Assertions of T. Vpsher here one with another and also with the many Assertions of G. Whithead W. Penn and others of the most approved Writers among the People called Quakers contained in their Books as most faithfully quoted in G. Keith's three printed Narratives and in the late printed Sheet called Some Account from Colchester of the Quakers Errors against the very foundation of the Christian Religion c. and I doubt not but it will evidently appear to them that T. Vpsher hath both foully contradicted himself and also his said Brethren And especially I desire the Readers to take notice of this one Instance of T. V's Self-contradiction in p. 8. of the printed Copy ad finem he grants that there is universally in Men both Heathens and Christians such a Grace or Manifestation of Christ as can give them a discovery of that that is necessary to Salvation for which he grants he quoted Titus 2. 10 11. Isa 49. 6. John 1. 9. and divers other Scriptures and this is the known Principle of G. Whithead W. Penn and most of the greatest Authors among the Quakers and yet in contradiction both to himself and them he hath told us see pag. 10. of the printed Relation he never did declare That the Light within without the outward Manifestation of Christ is sufficient for Salvation And yet as in the same pag. 10. he did plead that Heathens are saved who live up to their Light and yet have no K●owledge or Faith of Christ's outward Manifestation Again pray let the Reader well consider this Assertion of T. V. That he never declared that 〈◊〉 Light within without the outward Manifestation was sufficient to Salvation and his and his Brethren of Colchester their Assertion as in pag. 11. that i● is their absolute Belief That Faith in Christ as he did outwardly come c. and was Crucified and as he is outwardly to come in a glorified Body is necessary to their Salvation and compare it with G. Whithead his Assertion in his late Antidote against the Venom of the Snake p. 28. where he plainly affirmeth That the Quakers are offended with G. K. for undervaluing the Light within and saying it is not sufficient to Salvation or not sufficient without something else That something else he confesseth is according to G. K. Christ's outward Manifestation and coming in the Flesh and the Doctrine and Faith of it without which G. K. hath affirmed the Light within either Heathen or Christian is not sufficient to Salvation for which Assertion of his not only G. Whithead W. Penn and generally the most approved Writers and Preachers among the Quakers but also T. Vpsher and most of his Brethren at Colchester John Rallet and a few more at Colchester excepted who own G. K's Doctrine to be sound have judged him to be an Apostate and do still so judge him this being the chief Controversie betwixt them and him viz. Whether the Light within be sufficient to Salvation without Christ's outward Manifestation and coming in the Flesh his Death and Sufferings and the Doctrine and Faith of it which are that something else without which no Light in Men is sufficient to Salvation And yet now T. V. and these his Colchester Brethren by their late solemn Confession have declared themselves to be of the same Faith in the case with G. K. so that by undeniable

consequence either G. K. is no Apostate for his saying The light within is not sufficient to Salvation without something else or if they think he is for his so affirming they are as great Apostates as he and guilty of the same Apostacy with him Again is it not a palpable Contradiction betwixt these Colchester Quakers who say it is their absolute Belief That Faith in Christ without them is necessary to their Salvation and G. Whithead who hath positively and expresly affirmed That it is contrary to Scripture to confide in Christ without Men and to tell of a Christ whose person is above the Clouds and of a Christ within is to make two Christs See his Book Truth defending the Quakers p. 65. and p. 23. And in his Book called The Light and Life p. 61. he saith It is contrary to Scripture viz. Deut. 30. and Rom. 10. for People to seek their Saviour above the Clouds and Firmament or to look to the Blood that was shed at Jerusalem for Justification And in p. 56. he saith expounding Acts 20. 28. Now the Blood of God or that Blood that relates to God must needs be spiritual he being a Spirit and the Covenant of God is inward and spiritual and so is the Blood of it Here G. Whithead perfectly agreeth with W. Bailly in his Notion That the Blood is the Life and the Life is the Light of Men see W. B's Testimony of the Light in him pag. 23. This I did take to be also T. V's Notion of the Blood seeing he told us he differ'd not in his Faith from other Friends and yet he will not allow that by the Blood of Christ Rev. 7. 14. he meant the Light see True Relation p. 5. This is another Instance of his Contradiction both to himself and his Friends from whom he said he doth not differ As to the distinction making the Faith in Christ as he outwardly came in the Flesh c. necessary to the Salvation of those that live in the Christian World but not to the Heathen Gentiles I query first Doth not the Scripture plainly refute that distinction that holdeth not forth two ways of Justification and of eternal Salvation one by Faith in Christ without Men another by obedience to the Light within without Faith in Christ without Men which is a plain setting up of Salvation by the Covenant of Works see Gal. 3. 26. and Rom. 3. 30. Where Faith in Christ Jesus as he outwardly suffered c. is declared to be necessary as well to the Gentiles as the Jews 2. If the Light in Heathens be sufficient to Salvation without the Faith of Christ's outward Manifestation is it not as sufficient in Christians without that Faith otherwise it is less sufficient in Christians than in Heathens and consequently that Faith is superfluous or at least not more necessary in Christians than in Heathens 3. Why is that Faith necessary to the Christians but not to the Heathen If it be said because that the Doctrine concerning Christ as he outwardly came and was Crucified is Preached or declared to the Christians though not to the Heathens by the Scriptures and other outward means But the Question is again Is that Faith necessary to us because externally the Doctrine is Preached or declared to us then let it not be Preached or declared to them that are ignorant of it and they shall be saved without it yea according to this corrupt Notion they shall be more easily saved without it than with it because the dictates of the Light within as common to all Men are fewer and easier to be obeyed than the many Commands given by Christ in the Writings of the New Testament Again if the Doctrine of Christ as outwardly Crucified c. and the Faith of it be necessary to us in Christendome because Preached or declared to us what makes the Faith of that Declaration necessary to us Not the Scriptures seeing they are not with them the Rule of Faith and Practice to Christians nor the Light within because the Light within doth not without the external Doctrine teach us that Faith and if the external Doctrine be necessary to have that Faith it is a plain case the Light within is not sufficient to us without the external Doctrine to beget that Faith in us and consequently is not sufficient to our Salvation without that external Doctrine That the Scripture is not to them the Rule of Faith and Practise is expresly affirmed by W. P. in his Discourse of the General Rule of Faith and Practice Reprinted this Year 1699. To which I have printed an Answer called The Deism of W. Penn and his Brethren If the external Doctrine be necessary to be added to the Light within in order to give the Faith of Christ's outward Manifestation and coming in the Flesh then the Light within is not sufficient without it if not necessary then seeing the Light is the same in kind and nature according to these my Adversaries among the Quakers both in Heathens and Christians the Light in the Heathens doth as much oblige them to have that Faith as it doth oblige us to have it in order to Salvation because according to this way of arguing the Light within doth without the necessity of the Scripture or outward means reveal it in Christians and therefore also in the Heathens or if it doth not in the Heathens and yet doth it in the Christians then it is of a differing kind because of a differing ability as not performing that in the Heathens which it performeth in the Christians by all which it doth plainly appear how self-contradictory and inconsistent these Colchester Quakers are both with themselves and with their most approved Authors and Brethren at London and elsewhere and indeed all of them one with another Here followeth a Certificate of Parson Shelton to the truth of the Case in debate betwixt G. Keith and T. Upsher as the said Parson Shelton sum'd it up at the end of the Conference attested likewise by Nine other credible Witnesses And another Certificate of his to the truth of the Relation of the said Conference that is now printed WHereas I William Shelton am informed that a Quaker in Colchester has Written to a Quaker in London that I stood up at a Conference in Colchester when G. Keith was to prove that T. Vpsher had contradicted himself and did declare openly that G. Keith had wrongfully charged T. Vpsher with contradicting himself and that G. Keith was in my Judgment quite routed and worsted in that Dispute I do hereby testifie that it is a very false Report and he that wrote the Letter has done me great wrong for I do averr that as I was not that I remember desired to do it so I did not at all declare my Judgment at that time whether G. Keith had wronged T. Vpsher or no. That which I then said was a summing up the state of the Case in these words or I am sure to this